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View Full Version : If Shanny didn't draft TD...



Sparky The Sun Devil
04-14-2012, 02:22 PM
would we have any superbowl victories?

Northman
04-14-2012, 02:50 PM
Nope. TD was special.

Ravage!!!
04-14-2012, 03:57 PM
TD was special, but Elway went to two other Super Bowls when Shanahan was the OC....and didn't go back until Shanny came back. Shanahan built a VERY impressive team. TD was awesome, so he put us into the VERY impressive team, but I think we could have been impressive without him. Hard to say, to be honest. Could we have gone to the Super Bowl without having a 2000 yrd rusher, but had a 1500 yrd rusher? I think we could have

Northman
04-14-2012, 04:11 PM
TD was special, but Elway went to two other Super Bowls when Shanahan was the OC....and didn't go back until Shanny came back. Shanahan built a VERY impressive team. TD was awesome, so he put us into the VERY impressive team, but I think we could have been impressive without him. Hard to say, to be honest. Could we have gone to the Super Bowl without having a 2000 yrd rusher, but had a 1500 yrd rusher? I think we could have

I agree and my point wasnt that TD was the only reason but a huge contributor. I think its safe to say that all the moves that were made allowed us to win.

BroncoWave
04-14-2012, 04:24 PM
Impossible to say. A million variables would have changed. We could have, but I doubt we win two straight like we did.

Canmore
04-14-2012, 05:20 PM
Impossible to say. A million variables would have changed. We could have, but I doubt we win two straight like we did.

Like you said, "A million variables would have changed." I don't have a crystal ball, but down deep I don't think we win either Super Bowl without Terrell Davis. No offense to Barry Sanders, but we were the best running team in football those two seasons and probably the most balanced. Terrell was a huge weapon, and another back would not have racked up the yards, first downs and touchdowns that TD did.

Simple Jaded
04-15-2012, 04:55 AM
Absolutely. Davis was special but so was the rest of that team. And so was that system. The question is if Denver could win with an otherwise very good to excellent RB, and not just Derrick Loville, I think they could have. I'm just glad that we'll never know.......

CrazyHorse
04-17-2012, 08:57 AM
Yes, but probably not two in a row as our team wouldn't have been as dominant.

silkamilkamonico
04-17-2012, 09:00 AM
Absolutely we would have, IMO.

Chef Zambini
04-17-2012, 09:15 AM
when shanny returned to denver as HC, he brought with him
KUBIAK
TURNER
and GIBBS,
those 3 NOT shanny saw the value in a run game, and the talent of TD and were ALL essential in putting it all together for the broncos.
we all have opinions, ELWAYS opiniuon, for what it is worth, is that we NEVER would have won those SBs without TD.
I think I'll hang with elway on this one.

OrangeHoof
04-17-2012, 09:44 AM
By one theory, ANY back could have racked up 1500 yards in that system. To counter that, nobody did it before or better than TD. I think the success we had with Davis is what encouraged Elway to give back salary so we could add the final pieces like Neil Smith so one could say we would not have made the push to a Super Bowl without TD but whether, in theory, another back could have taken the same Broncos to the Super Bowl, I wouldn't say it couldn't have been done. Thank goodness this is all theory and the reality is that we won two titles. Keep in mind also that we were a Wild Card team the first time so it isn't like we were dominant in '97 like we were in '98.

Simple Jaded
04-17-2012, 10:02 AM
Who knows? If they don't have TD maybe the Broncos draft Ahman Green in the first/second round of the 98 draft instead of wasting it on Marcus Nash. Green didn't exactly light the NFL on fire right off the bat though. Michael Pittman was in that draft too. There is always free agency as well.

Denver took two RB's that draft, btw......

Thnikkaman
04-17-2012, 11:13 AM
Would chicken be as delicious if they didn't have wings?

Ravage!!!
04-17-2012, 01:28 PM
Would chicken be as delicious if they didn't have wings?

yes

OrangeHoof
04-17-2012, 01:55 PM
Would chicken be as delicious if they didn't have wings?

Definitely. I've always thought it would be fun to go through a drive thru fried chicken place some time and, in a nasty voice, tell the lady I want "two big breasts. Big ones. Juicy. Make 'em spicy. That's it. Two big juicy spicy breasts. Big ones." and then when she asked if I wanted anything else say "Yes, you got some thighs? I want two big spicy thighs. Big ones...."

Thnikkaman
04-17-2012, 03:57 PM
yes

Look how wrong you are.

broncobryce
04-17-2012, 09:30 PM
No chance. TD was a monster in the playoffs and Elway did very little in the first superbowl win besides the helicopter, which was a huge play.

TimHippo
04-17-2012, 09:54 PM
TD was like having the #1 pick in the entire draft fall into your lap for nothing (5th round pick). So yeah I would say it was huge. It wasn't all because of TD but getting him as an additional weapon is what put those teams over the top.

Canmore
04-17-2012, 11:27 PM
TD was like having the #1 pick in the entire draft fall into your lap for nothing (5th round pick). So yeah I would say it was huge. It wasn't all because of TD but getting him as an additional weapon is what put those teams over the top.

Davis was a sixth round pick, 196th pick overall.

OrangeFanatic
04-18-2012, 01:54 AM
Impossible to say. A million variables would have changed. We could have, but I doubt we win two straight like we did.

This. I think we probably still would have come away with at least one.

Npba900
04-18-2012, 08:05 AM
Beyond any shadow of a doubt drafting TD was one of the important finds with winning two consecutive SB. More importantly, TD was the greatest zone blocking running back ever. He had the patients, timing, vision, and rhytm(sp) and acceleration to exploit and excel within every intangible(s) to be successful in that scheme. "One Read--One Cut-And Run Down Hill". I have yet to see another NFL RB since TD to master the ZB attack. TD was truly special as a ZB running back. The G.O.A.T Zone Blocking Running Back.

Think about it, TD could have ran with the zone blocking scheme all the way into the HOF had he not suffered his season/career ending knee injury. Had TD ran in any other running scheme, he would not be the legend he is today. The 1997 Broncos Wild Card team, simply would not have won all 3 playoff games without TD exploiting the zone blocking rushing attack.

The games against KC and the Steeler's were against two of the best defenses in the NFL in 97. And neither the Steeler's nor KC could shut down the zone blocking rushing attack with TD's presence. So what you had were both KC and the Steelers havnig to contend with not only TD, but Elway's veteran savy play at QB, all came togetheer like a perfect storm to simply wear down both KC and the Steeler's.

However, keep in mind KC and the Steeler's still had to game plan for Elway as well. Sure Elway didn't put up huge numbers......but in any of those games Elway could have caught fire and thrown for 3-4 TD's. Physically, KC and the Steelers game plan was to shut down TD and the Broncos zone blocking scheme, but mentally and scheme wise KC and Pittsburgh could not ignore the passing ability of Elway.

In the SB, the same scenario with GB took place as well. Farve and the Packers just ran into a balanced talented Broncos team that consisted of a zone blocking running offense and TD who was born to run within a ZB scheme; coupled with Elway's refusal to loose (the helicopter play) and the better team won. In fact had TD not suffered his migrane headache, Terrell would rushed for a SB record of over 300 yards! Thats how dominate TD and the ZB scheme would have been.

The GB defense simply had no answers for stopping the ZB and TD. The Packers had to contend with and respect the receiving talents of Sharpe, Rod Smith, and Eddy Mac; TD and the Broncos ZB and ever-wily presence of the veteran John Elway at QB. The Broncos just had too many weapons for the Packers to contend with and stop.

So in conclusion and simply put, the 97 & 98 Broncos team were definitely one of the talented teams in NFL History.

To solidify the greatness of the teams that Shanahan assembled in the middle-late 90's, Elway would have had to have played 2-3 more years, but as destiny would have it, it wasn't meant to be. The retirement of Elway proved just how much TD and the offense missed John. The 99 Broncos started out the season out of sync and ineffective and with TD suffering a season/career ending knee injury as well........the run was over.

ShaneFalco
04-18-2012, 07:00 PM
Need me some "Manning takes the snap, hands off to Richardson..."

jhildebrand
04-18-2012, 11:46 PM
If Shanny didn't draft TD...

TD was a Bob Ferguson pick.

Joel
04-19-2012, 08:38 AM
It's a valid and interesting question whose answer we will mercifully never know. Davis brought a lot of things to the table other than the cut-and-go style Denver trademarked. He did many things well, as a receiver and blocker in addition to running, but even as a runner he had an enviable combination of breakaway speed, pile-moving ability, a nose for holes and excellent field vision/instincts. He even tackled well as a rookie. :tongue: He wasn't just a good runner, like a lot of guys, but an all around excellent BACK; Barry was a better runner and an excellent receiver in his own right, but given a choice between him, Emmitt and Terrell I'd take Terrell as the Compleat Back. The only one who might have been better was Sweetness.

Could we have done it with a Gary or Portis? Hard to say, but I tend to doubt it, because the Terrell Davis consistently played better the deeper we went in the playoffs, which is as remarkable as it is inexplicable. Just for the record though: Wade Phillips will always be "Bums son," and TD will always be Dorsett. Denver was blessed that both TD I AND II retired with the Broncos.

Cugel
04-19-2012, 01:20 PM
If you remember the 2008 SB, when it came to the crucial Denver drive in the 4th Quarter, the Packers were stacked up to stop Davis from picking up a first down; but they couldn't do it. He kept grinding away yardage and eating up the clock.

That's why they basically decided to allow the Broncos to score a TD on the next play to give themselves time enough to catch up.

That's really a desperation strategy because it means they had to score a TD to win and in the event the Broncos defense stopped them well short of the goal line.

But, none of that would have happened if Terrell hadn't ground down their defense to the point where they had to concede they couldn't stop him. They faced a choice of either allowing Denver to run the remainder of time off the clock and kick a FG or else run the ball in with Davis, leaving them with no chance, or let Denver get a TD lead requiring them to go for broke.

That drive was Terrell Davis's defining moment. Everybody knew he was getting the ball, the defenders were stacked to stop him, but they just could do nothing. You could feel the air deflating out of that team and knew they knew their chances were slipping away.

Now try and imagine all that happening with somebody like Willis McGahee or Moreno! :laugh:

Cugel
04-19-2012, 01:24 PM
"He had the patients. . ." :laugh:

That's the Freudian slip of the year!

Yeah, he had the "patients" all right. . . . after he ran over defenders they became "patients" in the trainers' room!

Cugel
04-19-2012, 01:40 PM
Here's a GREAT VIDEO of Davis' Greatest Hits! :beer:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTza50UcbGo

And if you haven't seen THIS video you really MUST. Maybe the greatest Broncos video of all time:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgEyuS2SwbA

Shannon Sharpe: "And I said 'who's that?' [who made a big hit in the pre-season] And they said "that's the rookie RB.' And I said 'the RB??' And I knew, 'that's going to be our starting RB this season." I always get a laugh when I see that! :beer:

hotcarl
04-19-2012, 01:45 PM
great thread, good job everybody!

Chef Zambini
04-19-2012, 01:54 PM
love watching TD footage. No way we get to or win those SBs without TD !
we won when BRISTER was handing him the ball.
I rest my case.

Chef Zambini
04-19-2012, 02:02 PM
TD was a Bob Ferguson pick.

shanny was on the golf course when we drafted TD.

SmilinAssasSin27
04-20-2012, 09:04 PM
I really don't think so. Let's be honest. TD was a lucky pick. We didn't have any RBs to speak of and weren't going anywhere until he came on the scene. Hell, Elway may have retired after 96 or 97. He knew he had a chance after 96 because of TD. That last ditch run at a title is what got the free agent defenders to even sign. Elway stuck around in 97 for 1 last shot. I doubt he lasts that long if he didn't have a real chance at a title. W/o a RB, he goes pass happy to claim some records and rolls out earlier than he did. IMHO...

NorCalBronco7
04-20-2012, 09:42 PM
No way the broncos win the superbowl without td. Shanahan even said so himself in an interview.

topscribe
04-20-2012, 09:49 PM
Would chicken be as delicious if they didn't have wings?
Would milk taste as good if the cow didn't have teats?

Chef Zambini
04-21-2012, 09:32 AM
you can milk a cat.
because it has teets.
Do you know the story of little jeppetto?

Chef Zambini
04-21-2012, 09:39 AM
I am sorry but the ten people who said yes, need to watch some film,
post season film.

Its a shame the NFL does not keep track of first downs, should be part of the fantacy equasion too.

my point, TD churned out so many first downs. averaged 28 touches a game, won every game ,in any part of the season when he touched the ball 30 times or more! The broncos were essentially undefeated when TD got 30 or more touches in a game.

we dont get to the superbowls without TD, never mind the actual win part.


WINNING?
TD never lost in ANY of the superbowls he played in,
can JE and SHANNY say that?

Ravage!!!
04-21-2012, 10:21 AM
I am sorry but the ten people who said yes, need to watch some film,
post season film.

Its a shame the NFL does not keep track of first downs, should be part of the fantacy equasion too.

my point, TD churned out so many first downs. averaged 28 touches a game, won every game ,in any part of the season when he touched the ball 30 times or more! The broncos were essentially undefeated when TD got 30 or more touches in a game.

we dont get to the superbowls without TD, never mind the actual win part.


WINNING?
TD never lost in ANY of the superbowls he played in,
can JE and SHANNY say that?

Did TD ever win a Super Bowl without Elway and Shanahan?

Do you really think that TD won those Super Bowls alone? Does it really matter that he "never lost a super bowl?" I could say the same thing about MOST of the rest of the players on that team. Did MOST of those players ever win a Super Bowl without Elway and Shanahan? It can go both ways.

The truth of the matter is, I LOVE TD, and believe him to be one of the best RBs to ever play the game... and his shortened career ended the chances for most to really see that. However, that team that Shanahan had put together was one of the greatest teams EVER. TD is absolutely 100% a reason its considered one of the greatest teams ever. But the question is, do I think that without TD we had enough talent on those teams (combined with fantastic coaching) to go to the Super Bowl without him? I think we had enough talent on those teams to absolutely be a contender...especially in '98.

Does TD 'churn out" so many first downs if our passing attack with Smith, McCaffrey, Sharpe, and Elway are not keeping people completely on their heels? He won every game he touched the ball 30 times, because he touched the ball 30 times when we were in a position to win. We were in positions to win because our offense usually put us up 7 points to the lead from the opening drive.

I believe that a RB not long ago carried for more yardage than TD did in a single season...yet they didn't go to, nor win, the Super Bowl. So it takes more than just running the ball, it takes a complete team to accomplish that..... not to mention to accomplish being a team that is considered one of the tops to ever be assimilated in the NFL.

So although we wouldn't have had a GREAT team without TD, would have had a Damned Good team without him. Can a team go to and win a Super Bowl without being a great team, but being a Damned Good team? Absolutely they can. We may not have beaten the Packers that season, but we absolutely could have beaten the Falcons.

DenBronx
04-21-2012, 12:05 PM
I think Elway still might have won at least one SB. Maybe he would have played even a little longer just to get the ring. Lets face it, besides TD the whole Broncos team was pretty special and Shanny always knew how to find good RBs. Look at how good all of the other RBs did after TD. So, yes it's possible we could have won one anyway.

But, none of the other RBs were no where near as good as TD. He did push us over the top.Man o man, one could only dream if Elway had stayed one more year and TD didnt get injured because we could have 3 peated! No way in hell could the Ravens had beat that team....no way... no how.

topscribe
04-21-2012, 01:46 PM
I am sorry but the ten people who said yes, need to watch some film,
post season film.

Its a shame the NFL does not keep track of first downs, should be part of the fantacy equasion too.

my point, TD churned out so many first downs. averaged 28 touches a game, won every game ,in any part of the season when he touched the ball 30 times or more! The broncos were essentially undefeated when TD got 30 or more touches in a game.

we dont get to the superbowls without TD, never mind the actual win part.


WINNING?
TD never lost in ANY of the superbowls he played in,
can JE and SHANNY say that?
Zam, all TD ever played in were two Super Bowls, and Elway and Shanny were there, too. Elway -- or should I say Elway's team -- lost three others, but he was there, right? Was TD? I mean, neither Trent Dilfer nor Doug Williams ever lost a Super Bowl, either.

Yes, it is a good question as to whether the Broncos would have won their two Super Bowls without TD. But the same goes for others: Would they won them without Elway? How about Atwater? Mobley? Sharpe? Would the Broncos have gone on to win without that "Helicopter Spin" or Mobley's tip of Favre's otherwise perfectly placed pass?

Really, this whole thread is just dumb . . .

DenBronx
04-21-2012, 07:34 PM
Zam, all TD ever played in were two Super Bowls, and Elway and Shanny were there, too. Elway -- or should I say Elway's team -- lost three others, but he was there, right? Was TD? I mean, neither Trent Dilfer nor Doug Williams ever lost a Super Bowl, either.

Yes, it is a good question as to whether the Broncos would have won their two Super Bowls without TD. But the same goes for others: Would they won them without Elway? How about Atwater? Mobley? Sharpe? Would the Broncos have gone on to win without that "Helicopter Spin" or Mobley's tip of Favre's otherwise perfectly placed pass?

Really, this whole thread is just dumb . . .

Top, tell us how you reallllly feel.

Shazam!
04-21-2012, 10:26 PM
Without Nalen, Schlereth, Habib, Zimmerman, Jones, Swayne, Neil (not in that order, there was shuffling when Habib left via FA and Zimm retired) and Griffith, laying the foundation for the blocking, there wouldn't be any Lombardis in Denver.