Post Article: Will the Broncos Trade Down Out of the First?

[Cugel]

From today's Denver Post:


Trading out of draft's first round to acquire more picks an option for Broncos (http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_20374109/trading-out-drafts-first-round-acquire-more-picks)
Posted: 04/12/2012 01:00:00 AM MDT
Updated: 04/12/2012 07:01:26 AM MDT
By Jeff Legwold
The Denver Post
(AP file photo)

Today's question about the Broncos comes from David Roberts.

Q: Do you see the Broncos trading their first-round pick in the April 26-28 draft to acquire more picks?

A: Any NFL team needing help at a deep position in the draft and holding a pick in the bottom third of the first round will consider trading out of the first round.

The Broncos, who have the No. 25 pick, fit that scenario. They need help at defensive tackle and running back, and those positions are deep in this draft. Some defensive tackles with a first-round grade may get drafted in the second round. That's how deep that position is this year.

As for the Broncos, trading out of the first round and not moving into a high slot in the second round wouldn't make a lot of sense. Especially when you're coming off an 8-8 season and you have a lot of improving to do.


In short, it MIGHT work out if the Broncos traded down by a few slots, from #25 to #35 say and could still find a DT like Jerel Worthy available, while picking up an additional second or third round pick.

But, you better be sure that you still can land a GOOD DT with your pick. Otherwise those players who have first round talent, but slide in the draft will be taken by other teams! There have been other years when there was good depth at DT but the Broncos never took advantage of it to draft one!

[HORSEPOWER 56]

If they trade down out of the 1st, it better be for a damned 1st round pick next year. Seriously, I'm tired of us trading picks and then wasting picks on shitty second and third tier players who don't pan out. If we don't just make our pick at #25, we need to get a 1st rounder next year for it. Stockpiling a bunch of 3rd and 4th round picks to use on projects will not make this team any better. Having an additional 1st round pick next year provides flexibility to trade up and get elite players or to get 2 first round caliber guys.

We don't need to trade down, we need to draft BPA (DT in every round!!!!) and move on.

[underrated29]

still comes back to that report that we are trading down, and not selecting a DT or RB or defensive player with our first.

My guess is either, STL with 2 2nds....Or a first for next year-which maybe we stockpile and use to move up for QB-Barklay?


I hope we go for 2nds, like with STL....Then we have 3 picks in the 2nd.

[Northman]

still comes back to that report that we are trading down, and not selecting a DT or RB or defensive player with our first.

My guess is either, STL with 2 2nds....Or a first for next year-which maybe we stockpile and use to move up for QB-Barklay?


I hope we go for 2nds, like with STL....Then we have 3 picks in the 2nd.


Im with you on this. If the draft works out in our favor and we can trade back and still get the players we need and want than im all for it.

[TXBRONC]

still comes back to that report that we are trading down, and not selecting a DT or RB or defensive player with our first.

My guess is either, STL with 2 2nds....Or a first for next year-which maybe we stockpile and use to move up for QB-Barklay?


I hope we go for 2nds, like with STL....Then we have 3 picks in the 2nd.

We could end up with both a first round pick for next year and second this year.

[OrangeHoof]

A lot of misinformation flies around before the draft. I don't think any of these reports have much credibility. If their sources are inside the organization, they're telling you what they want the rest of us to think they will do and if the sources are outside the organization, they probably have as little access to the real thoughts of the front office as you or I do. In short, it's fun to play around with the ideas in your head but don't take any draft info seriously at this time of year. Half of it is BS to make somebody look like an insider who isn't and the other half is BS that teams or agents put out there to make you think they will do something other than what they are hoping to do.

[BigDaddyBronco]

I would love it if this was a possibility. The DT's and RB's available at 25 are of the same quality as the guys at 45.

[Jsteve01]

I've been saying this for a while, with a caveat. if there is a run on either position then I think If you move down it can only be a few slots. How nice though would it be if there were a run on say ends and or offensive tackles and we could move down and nab a zeitler/Osemele, a Miller/martin and a Thompson/Ta'amu. Interchange names as you like but Im praying it plays out that way. Ta'amu is the only tackle after Poe, Cox, Brockers, and Worthy that excites me and I really believe he can be had later.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I REALLY hope the Rams see someone they really like at 25. Grabbing the 33 and 39 or 33 and the 63 (I think) would be well worth trading back 8 spots.

[Jsteve01]

This type of scenario doesn't make me nearly as sick as it would if we had the same number of picks that we do now and drafted another weapon for Peyton. Now if you move back seven or 8 and pick up another 2nd rounder, picking up a Kendall Wright or Sanu doesn't sting as much. Hmm I may have to do a mock with this type of trade lol

[dogfish]

still comes back to that report that we are trading down, and not selecting a DT or RB or defensive player with our first.

My guess is either, STL with 2 2nds....Or a first for next year-which maybe we stockpile and use to move up for QB-Barklay?


I hope we go for 2nds, like with STL....Then we have 3 picks in the 2nd.


Im with you on this. If the draft works out in our favor and we can trade back and still get the players we need and want than im all for it.

i'd like to trade back to about forty, and still get fletcher cox-- that's what would work best for the broncos. . .

the rams aren't trading. . . they're one of the most talent-starved rosters in the league, and jeff fisher is used to working without a bunch of superstars. . . i mean, it would be great for us and all, but it doesn't make a bit of sense for them-- particularly since they have a QB, and that's generally the one position a team like that will package picks for. . .

if we do manage to move back, i think doug martin would be the target. . .

[dogfish]

From today's Denver Post:



In short, it MIGHT work out if the Broncos traded down by a few slots, from #25 to #35 say and could still find a DT like Jerel Worthy available, while picking up an additional second or third round pick.

But, you better be sure that you still can land a GOOD DT with your pick. Otherwise those players who have first round talent, but slide in the draft will be taken by other teams! There have been other years when there was good depth at DT but the Broncos never took advantage of it to draft one!

cug, buddy. . . you gotta quit doing this to yourself, it's NOT good for your health. . . :laugh: "you better be sure you can still land a good DT?" well, sure-- IF you have any intention of actually drafting a DT that high, which you and i both know they probably don't. . . playing out all these fantasy scenarios in your head just makes it sting that much worse when we inevitably take a cornerback, wide receiver or guard with the pick. . .

take it from me-- if you just accept it now, it hurts a lot less on draft day. . .

with that new philosophy in hand, last year i was able to manage a sour laugh when we drafted rahim moore, rather than trying to launch the remote through the TV. . .

[SpringsBroncoFan]

cug, buddy. . . you gotta quit doing this to yourself, it's NOT good for your health. . . :laugh: "you better be sure you can still land a good DT?" well, sure-- IF you have any intention of actually drafting a DT that high, which you and i both know they probably don't. . . playing out all these fantasy scenarios in your head just makes it sting that much worse when we inevitably take a cornerback, wide receiver or guard with the pick. . .

take it from me-- if you just accept it now, it hurts a lot less on draft day. . .

with that new philosophy in hand, last year i was able to manage a sour laugh when we drafted rahim moore, rather than trying to launch the remote through the TV. . .

or the TV itself... or a cat... :afraid:

[Cugel]

A lot of misinformation flies around before the draft. I don't think any of these reports have much credibility. If their sources are inside the organization, they're telling you what they want the rest of us to think they will do and if the sources are outside the organization, they probably have as little access to the real thoughts of the front office as you or I do. In short, it's fun to play around with the ideas in your head but don't take any draft info seriously at this time of year. Half of it is BS to make somebody look like an insider who isn't and the other half is BS that teams or agents put out there to make you think they will do something other than what they are hoping to do.

That's certainly true, and I rather think that this report more probably means we are NOT trading down out of the first than that we are.

That said, it is a consideration, and there was an article about it in the Post which nobody else mentioned so I thought I'd post it.

Shanahan was so paranoid about his draft plans that he spent much of the month of April glaring at his left hand in suspicion that it knew what his right hand was doing. I think he probably stayed up nights to watch it and make sure it didn't dial any other teams. :laugh:

[Simple Jaded]

Why does the notion of trading UP go over like a turd in a pool? Year after year the most popular item is trading down and accumulating more average backups. Denver has the backup positions covered, they need to send some of their starters to the bench. God forbid they miss out on another dime-o-dozen RB or a QB to groom for 4 years from now, trade up and get that F'n DT once and for all.......

[SpringsBroncoFan]

Why does the notion of trading UP go over like a turd in a pool? Year after year the most popular item is trading down and accumulating more average backups. Denver has the backup positions covered, they need to send some of their starters to the bench. God forbid they miss out on another dime-o-dozen RB or a QB to groom for 4 years from now, trade up and get that F'n DT once and for all.......

Sez the guy advocating overpaying for one of those dime a dozen RB's... I'd be fine with Turbin in the 3rd as another one of those dime a dozen guys... I'd be fine with just taking Worthy at 25 and Osemele in the 2nd...

I'd also like to grab Hicks with a late 4th or our 5th to test the theory that Hicks would have been just as good or better than Brockers had he actually been able to stay in the SEC...

It seems to me and others that the value of a NT for Fox has crashed with Peyton around... I see Mike Martin as a quick undersized NT more likely than the large beastly NT types now...

[OrangeHoof]

Jaded is right. We don't need more low draft choice RBs like Terrell Davis. We need more high draft choice RBs like Knowshon Moreno.

[underrated29]

i'd like to trade back to about forty, and still get fletcher cox-- that's what would work best for the broncos. . .

the rams aren't trading. . . they're one of the most talent-starved rosters in the league, and jeff fisher is used to working without a bunch of superstars. . . i mean, it would be great for us and all, but it doesn't make a bit of sense for them-- particularly since they have a QB, and that's generally the one position a team like that will package picks for. . .

if we do manage to move back, i think doug martin would be the target. . .


I like martin, but me thinks they like polk better. All the leeks keep being speed, but so far all the RBs weve rumored to like, trade or are looking at in the draft are bruiser types. Not saying martin isnt, but I think they think Polk is the better fit for them.

[Superchop 7]

Since I want Still or Reyes........I'm not moving, I'm getting my guy.

[Cugel]

Why does the notion of trading UP go over like a turd in a pool? Year after year the most popular item is trading down and accumulating more average backups. Denver has the backup positions covered, they need to send some of their starters to the bench. God forbid they miss out on another dime-o-dozen RB or a QB to groom for 4 years from now, trade up and get that F'n DT once and for all.......

I want them to draft a DT, BAD, but I don't want to see them trade up for one this year. There's really nobody they could reasonably get who would be a sure-fire All-Pro guy like Dareus was last year.

Haloti Ngata fell out of the top 10 and was available when the Broncos took Cutler. Moving up to #12 for someone like him would be worth it.

But, it costs so much to move up that high in the first round that they would have to give up virtually their entire draft to do it.

Just look at the draft value chart and figure out what picks you have to give up to move up even a few places.

Shanahan gave up a 3rd round pick to move up from #21 to #17, for Jarvis Moss. Obviously that totally wasn't worth it. Think about that: it cost Denver a 3rd round pick just to move up 4 places!

To move up from #26 to say #12 or so (which they would have to do to get even an outside chance at the top DT prospect, Fletcher Cox), would cost them a LOT more than that one player is worth.

[SpringsBroncoFan]

I like martin, but me thinks they like polk better. All the leeks keep being speed, but so far all the RBs weve rumored to like, trade or are looking at in the draft are bruiser types. Not saying martin isnt, but I think they think Polk is the better fit for them.

Both Polk & Miller have some more elite skills than Martin but he's ready to go now... Turbin & Martin are about the same to me, with Turbin being a better power runner & Martin has better footwork and is a much better pass blocker...

Polk & Miller you either have to take at 25 or trade down a bit for... Martin may well be gone at 57... question is do they like Turbin enough to take at 57 or do you trade up from 87 to get him?

[SpringsBroncoFan]

Jaded is right. We don't need more low draft choice RBs like Terrell Davis. We need more high draft choice RBs like Knowshon Moreno.

Well if you want to go there I'd rather just skip drafting a RB and wait for guys like Foster! :D

[Jsteve01]

Lol at the idea that people like Polk better than Martin. He showed up to the senior bowl pudgy and that kind of stuff ain't lost on scouts. By all accounts Martin impressed everyone at the senior bowl all while looking like hands down the best back there in the running and passing games. Polk before the third would blow. And I'd much rather take turbin there

[Simple Jaded]

Jaded is right. We don't need more low draft choice RBs like Terrell Davis. We need more high draft choice RBs like Knowshon Moreno.

Ohhhhhhh, you wanna draft another Terrell Davis? Well why the **** didn't ya say so? Now it makes sense. Nevermind.......Carry on.......

[Simple Jaded]

Sez the guy advocating overpaying for one of those dime a dozen RB's... I'd be fine with Turbin in the 3rd as another one of those dime a dozen guys... I'd be fine with just taking Worthy at 25 and Osemele in the 2nd...

I'd also like to grab Hicks with a late 4th or our 5th to test the theory that Hicks would have been just as good or better than Brockers had he actually been able to stay in the SEC...

It seems to me and others that the value of a NT for Fox has crashed with Peyton around... I see Mike Martin as a quick undersized NT more likely than the large beastly NT types now...I never said anything about overpaying. A late 2nd round pick is overpaying? You're gonna be disappointed when Denver takes a RB at 25 if that's the case.

Btw, Mike Martin is anything but quick.......

[Simple Jaded]

I want them to draft a DT, BAD, but I don't want to see them trade up for one this year. There's really nobody they could reasonably get who would be a sure-fire All-Pro guy like Dareus was last year.

Haloti Ngata fell out of the top 10 and was available when the Broncos took Cutler. Moving up to #12 for someone like him would be worth it.

But, it costs so much to move up that high in the first round that they would have to give up virtually their entire draft to do it.

Just look at the draft value chart and figure out what picks you have to give up to move up even a few places.

Shanahan gave up a 3rd round pick to move up from #21 to #17, for Jarvis Moss. Obviously that totally wasn't worth it. Think about that: it cost Denver a 3rd round pick just to move up 4 places!

To move up from #26 to say #12 or so (which they would have to do to get even an outside chance at the top DT prospect, Fletcher Cox), would cost them a LOT more than that one player is worth.There is no Marcell Dareus in this draft. Imo this DT class is a bit overrated, Brockers, Poe, Cox and Worthy will be gone at 25. I'm not advocating moving all the way to 12th to get a DT, if the that's where they go let some other team have them.

I doubt they'd find a team willing to move down anyway, I'm just wonder why it's annually so popular to move down and accumulate more draft picks that Denver doesn't need. Josh McDaniels spent the better part of the last two drafts wasting picks on backup talent.

I just don't get why people have such a hardon for trading down.......

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Honestly, the reviews of pretty much all the "first round caliber" DTs is a little disheartening and you can find chinks in the armor on pretty much all of them if you look for it. Cox and Brockers are probably the only 2 "legitimate" 1st rounders. Frankly, there just isn't much difference between Still, Worthy, Poe, and Reyes. None of them project to be a superstar and I think they are projected as 1st rounders more because of the importance of the position in today's NFL and because of the weakness of this draft at other postions. Hopefully if we take one, they'll become a solid starting caliber DT. That's all you can ask.

[SpringsBroncoFan]

Lol at the idea that people like Polk better than Martin. He showed up to the senior bowl pudgy and that kind of stuff ain't lost on scouts. By all accounts Martin impressed everyone at the senior bowl all while looking like hands down the best back there in the running and passing games. Polk before the third would blow. And I'd much rather take turbin there

There are scouts that agree & disagree with you on Polk but the thing is that the more tape you watch the higher Polk is graded... so to base a pick on one performance is a mistake... Martin ascended based on his tape and not on his bowl performance, though yes it was good... Martin, like the rest of them save Trent (Wilson,Miller,Martin) are pretty much all 30 to 50 - well before we pick.

There is so much variation of opinion on Polk, James, Pierce, Pead, & Turbin that it just highlights the difficulties in projecting players.

[SpringsBroncoFan]

I never said anything about overpaying. A late 2nd round pick is overpaying? You're gonna be disappointed when Denver takes a RB at 25 if that's the case.

Btw, Mike Martin is anything but quick.......

Then you weren't paying attention... the original asking price for Stewart was a 3rd & 4th... when they found out there was plenty of interest at that price they then raised it to a 2nd... and all the teams (five, I think) all pulled out of talks...

All I can do is laugh at you saying Martin is not quick... if you actually knew anything about him you'd be able to tell me what his two big issues are...

Edit: btw, I don't want a rb at 25, I'd rather see us trade down... As a fan, I'll suffer with Dre, or Gilmore and be happy with Glenn because Peyton would be less likely to get killed...

[Simple Jaded]

Then you weren't paying attention... the original asking price for Stewart was a 3rd & 4th... when they found out there was plenty of interest at that price they then raised it to a 2nd... and all the teams (five, I think) all pulled out of talks...

All I can do is laugh at you saying Martin is not quick... if you actually knew anything about him you'd be able to tell me what his two big issues are...

Edit: btw, I don't want a rb at 25, I'd rather see us trade down... As a fan, I'll suffer with Dre, or Gilmore and be happy with Glenn because Peyton would be less likely to get killed...I was paying attention, I'm just not ridiculous enough to believe that Car would trade the former 12th overall for a 4th round pick when they can let him walk in free agency and get a better compensatory pick. You believe what you want but it's not the best idea to believe everything you hear this time of the year.

As for Martin, I'm also Michigan fan and I rarely miss an available game. I don't know what you look for in a down lineman but if you're consistently beaten off the snap by Big Ten grunts then quickness is not your strong suit. His issues are many and varied, his lack of size, strenght and explosiveness. He's Trevor Laws v2.0 with a Derek Landri/Geno Atkins ceiling, a big effort/hustle guy with above average talent and ability. You don't go chasing players like Martin, if he's not there in the 4th/5th you don't need him. The 3rd round is a bit of a stretch, imo, but you'd hope there is a better prospect available there.

And if he turns out to be a surprise for another team ya just shrug your shoulders and go find another one just like him in free agency or the 4th/5th round of the next draft. Maybe he's better suited for the pro game but at his size I wouldn't bet on it.

I've been wrong more times than I can remember, but I remember having the same discussion about Laws 4 years ago when Broncos fans had them taking him in the 1st round.

No offense, but if Martin were a player I'd never seen we wouldn't be having this discussion.......

[MOtorboat]

Compensatory picks in the NFL don't work like they do in MLB. No team thinks about compensatory picks when they decide to, or not to, trade someone.

That said, I don't think Stewart is leaving Carolina.

And I know everyone wants to trade back, it's always the popular thing to say. But who is moving up, and for what player?

[topscribe]

I would love it if this was a possibility. The DT's and RB's available at 25 are of the same quality as the guys at 45.
That's a possibility. My dream is for Brandon Thompson to be available at 45, so the Broncos get the steal of the draft, IMO.

If that were to happen, they could make any kind of trade they want, far as I'm concerned.

[CoachChaz]

then you weren't paying attention... The original asking price for stewart was a 3rd & 4th... When they found out there was plenty of interest at that price they then raised it to a 2nd... And all the teams (five, i think) all pulled out of talks...

All i can do is laugh at you saying martin is not quick... If you actually knew anything about him you'd be able to tell me what his two big issues are...

Edit: Btw, i don't want a rb at 25, i'd rather see us trade down... As a fan, i'll suffer with dre, or gilmore and be happy with glenn because peyton would be less likely to get killed...i was paying attention, i'm just not ridiculous enough to believe that car would trade the former 12th overall for a 4th round pick when they can let him walk in free agency and get a better compensatory pick. You believe what you want but it's not the best idea to believe everything you hear this time of the year.

As for martin, i'm also michigan fan and i rarely miss an available game. I don't know what you look for in a down lineman but if you're consistently beaten off the snap by big ten grunts then quickness is not your strong suit. His issues are many and varied, his lack of size, strenght and explosiveness. He's trevor laws v2.0 with a derek landri/geno atkins ceiling, a big effort/hustle guy with above average talent and ability. You don't go chasing players like martin, if he's not there in the 4th/5th you don't need him. The 3rd round is a bit of a stretch, imo, but you'd hope there is a better prospect available there.

And if he turns out to be a surprise for another team ya just shrug your shoulders and go find another one just like him in free agency or the 4th/5th round of the next draft. Maybe he's better suited for the pro game but at his size i wouldn't bet on it.

I've been wrong more times than i can remember, but i remember having the same discussion about laws 4 years ago when broncos fans had them taking him in the 1st round.

No offense, but if martin were a player i'd never seen we wouldn't be having this discussion.......


amen!!!!!!

[topscribe]

I was paying attention, I'm just not ridiculous enough to believe that Car would trade the former 12th overall for a 4th round pick when they can let him walk in free agency and get a better compensatory pick. You believe what you want but it's not the best idea to believe everything you hear this time of the year.

As for Martin, I'm also Michigan fan and I rarely miss an available game. I don't know what you look for in a down lineman but if you're consistently beaten off the snap by Big Ten grunts then quickness is not your strong suit. His issues are many and varied, his lack of size, strenght and explosiveness. He's Trevor Laws v2.0 with a Derek Landri/Geno Atkins ceiling, a big effort/hustle guy with above average talent and ability. You don't go chasing players like Martin, if he's not there in the 4th/5th you don't need him. The 3rd round is a bit of a stretch, imo, but you'd hope there is a better prospect available there.

And if he turns out to be a surprise for another team ya just shrug your shoulders and go find another one just like him in free agency or the 4th/5th round of the next draft. Maybe he's better suited for the pro game but at his size I wouldn't bet on it.

I've been wrong more times than I can remember, but I remember having the same discussion about Laws 4 years ago when Broncos fans had them taking him in the 1st round.

No offense, but if Martin were a player I'd never seen we wouldn't be having this discussion.......
As a matter of fact, Big Al (104.3 The Fan), who should know defensive linemen, offered practically the same assessment of Martin as you did here . . .

[Bad Intentions]

If they trade down out of the 1st, it better be for a damned 1st round pick next year. Seriously, I'm tired of us trading picks and then wasting picks on shitty second and third tier players who don't pan out. If we don't just make our pick at #25, we need to get a 1st rounder next year for it. Stockpiling a bunch of 3rd and 4th round picks to use on projects will not make this team any better. Having an additional 1st round pick next year provides flexibility to trade up and get elite players or to get 2 first round caliber guys.

We don't need to trade down, we need to draft BPA (DT in every round!!!!) and move on.

At 25 we are already into the 2nd tier players... or a character drop (I.e. Jenkins). What is the difference between a guy like Brockers (expected top 20), Worthy (Top 30), Still (Top 45), and Kendall Reyes (Top 45)?

The only way we should stay at 25 is if we plan on taking a position player, a guy like Kendall Wright or Lamar Miller who won't drop. I can even talk myself out of Kendall Wright pretty easily as he isn't a much better player than someone like Ryan Broyles who you can for sure get in the 3rd and possibly in the 4th (w/two picks).

IF the chips fall the right way for us, we could trade back from 25 to 35 or so, and get a high 3rd as well. With the two 3rds and two 4ths, you could get back into the 2nd if you wanted to, or draft multiple DTs and CBs. Makes sense at DT as they will take a couple years to develop. DT in the draft is super sketchy... just too many guys that were first round picks that never panned out.

Ideal draft for me, #1 Lamar Miller (especially if we can move down 10 or so spots), #2 Alameda Ta'Amu, #3 Trumaine Johnson #4a Ryan Broyles, #4b Sean Spence

If you can move down 10 spots, you likely still have a shot at Lamar Miller or Doug Martin, still can get Ta'Amu, Johnson, Broyles, Spence, etc... but even better, you have the ability to trade the extra 3rd from trading down, and the 4th from Tebow to get back into the 2nd. Maybe you get a guy like Lavonte David instead of Spence in the 2nd. I know we have Woodyard to replace DJ for the first 6 games... but neither of them are play makers. David is a playmaker!

That would be the theme for me in the draft. Take a guy that make plays. Lamar Miller, Doug Martin, LaMichael James, Wright, Jenkins... someone that can make a play that actually changes the outcome of a game. We have plenty of guys like McGahee, Robert Ayers, Knowshon, Porter, DJ, etc... just guys that play solid. You need those kinds of guys. Guys that are willing to sellout to help someone else make plays. But our play makers just don't make a lot of game changing plays. How many TDs did McGahee score... Lamar Miller and Doug Martin can score from anywhere on the field. Who returns punts for us now? Martin, Jenkins, Wright and James all have had a lot of success returning punts.

Take a guy like Brockers or Worthy in the first and all you've done is add another guy to the mix... just b/c you need to fill the position. If you're going to add "just a guy" then grab that guy later and use your high picks on playmakers!!! /Rant

[SpringsBroncoFan]

I was paying attention, I'm just not ridiculous enough to believe that Car would trade the former 12th overall for a 4th round pick when they can let him walk in free agency and get a better compensatory pick. You believe what you want but it's not the best idea to believe everything you hear this time of the year.

As for Martin, I'm also Michigan fan and I rarely miss an available game. I don't know what you look for in a down lineman but if you're consistently beaten off the snap by Big Ten grunts then quickness is not your strong suit. His issues are many and varied, his lack of size, strenght and explosiveness. He's Trevor Laws v2.0 with a Derek Landri/Geno Atkins ceiling, a big effort/hustle guy with above average talent and ability. You don't go chasing players like Martin, if he's not there in the 4th/5th you don't need him. The 3rd round is a bit of a stretch, imo, but you'd hope there is a better prospect available there.

And if he turns out to be a surprise for another team ya just shrug your shoulders and go find another one just like him in free agency or the 4th/5th round of the next draft. Maybe he's better suited for the pro game but at his size I wouldn't bet on it.

I've been wrong more times than I can remember, but I remember having the same discussion about Laws 4 years ago when Broncos fans had them taking him in the 1st round.

No offense, but if Martin were a player I'd never seen we wouldn't be having this discussion.......

Sorry, I just hate simple buzzword answers (re Martin - not quick).

I'm going to just disagree on Stewart but you're mostly right on Martin... he's good with leverage but not consistent with it and he has quick hands with a pretty violent punch. He has no room for growth on his frame and will simply get engulfed at the next level and his penetration came from stunts... He's fast but his footwork doesn't match up. With a 500lb bench & a 700lb squat he's pretty damn strong. Would I like him on the team, yes but not as a 3rd anymore... He's overachieved as a result of his wrestling background and being a workout warrior & film junkie... and winning the underwear olympics...

At this point I'd be happy with Worthy early & Hicks late or any two starters out of the first three picks...