Confirmed- Seattle gets the Broncos "natural" 1st round pick in 2010

[2Fity@The303]

http://cbs4denver.com/sports/nfl.denver.broncos.2.994717.html



McDaniels Snags Five 'Interesting' Draft Picks
Running Back Moreno Surprise 1st Selection
STAPLETON - AP Sports Writer
ENGLEWOOD, Colo (CBS4) ―

Josh McDaniels pulled a few big surprises in his first draft as coach of the Denver Broncos.

McDaniels selected Georgia running back Knowshon Moreno at No. 12 on Saturday and then started addressing his many defensive holes with the addition of versatile pass-rusher Robert Ayers of Tennessee at No. 18.

Taking Moreno ahead of Ayers raised some eyebrows, as did the Broncos' maneuvering in Round 2. The Broncos drafted Alphonso Smith, a 5-foot-9 cornerback from Wake Forest with the 37th pick, which they acquired from Seattle in exchange for their first-round pick in 2010.

The Broncos still have a first-rounder next year, which they received from Chicago in the Jay Cutler trade.

Asked why he didn't make the draft pick conditional, sending the Seahawks the lesser of the two first-round selections next year, McDaniels said: "We had a conversation about it, but we felt good about it and they did, too."

So, if Denver has a bad season, they potentially sent a Top 10 pick to the Seahawks.

Seahawks president and general manager Tim Ruskell said the Broncos called earlier in the day about possibly trading up to Seattle's fourth overall pick in the first round, so a communication line was already open.

Asked if he ever thought he'd pick up a No. 1 pick Saturday, though, Ruskell said, "No, I absolutely did not. Yeah, that kind of came out of the blue."

"Obviously, with two ones, you can do a lot of things. You can go just about anywhere you want to go in the round. That's a nice option to have," Ruskell said.

The Broncos decided Smith was more valuable to them than that extra selection.

McDaniels went for another defensive back with the 48th overall pick, selecting Texas Tech safety Darcel McBath.

The Broncos had been expected to focus more on their thin front seven Saturday after adding veteran defensive backs Brian Dawkins, Renaldo Hill and Andre' Goodman in free agency.

McDaniels had one more surprise up his sleeve when he traded both of his third-round picks to Pittsburgh for the final pick of Round 2, which he used to select North Carolina tight end Richard Quinn, a blocker in the mold of incumbent Daniel Graham, and a fourth-rounder.

Few expected McDaniels to go after a running back in the first round.

McDaniels said he thought about taking Ayers at 12 but feared that Moreno would be gone by the time the Broncos selected again six spots later, with the other first-round pick they got from the Bears for Cutler.

"Taking Knowshon first and Robert second paid off and worked the way we thought it would," McDaniels said.

This was the first draft for the 33-year-old McDaniels and 37-year-old rookie general manager Brian Xanders, who signed an NFL-high 16 free agents this spring, including three running backs in J.J. Arrington, LaMont Jordan and Correll Buckhalter to compete with holdovers Peyton Hillis, Selvin Young and Ryan Torain.

However, only three of them were healthy enough to participate in the new regime's first minicamp a week ago -- Jordan, Buckhalter and Hillis -- and now Moreno comes in as the potential workhorse.

"I'm going to fit in where I can, learn from the guys that are there, and compete and work hard to make my team better and make myself better," Moreno said.

Moreno and Ayers played against each other in college.

"We always thought he was the best back in the country by far," Ayers said. "He's the first back selected. He's a hard runner. He's one of the hardest runners I've ever played against."

Although he only started one year for the Vols, Ayers is among the bevy of hybrid defenders in the draft who can play defensive end and outside linebacker in a 3-4 scheme like Denver is installing.

"Maybe both. Certainly capable," McDaniels said. "That's where were going to put him. He's a guy that can stand up or put his hand on the ground. ... He's a player we're looking forward to trying to maneuver around and well see where he fits best."

Unlike his predecessor, Mike Shanahan, who always found backfield diamonds in the lower rounds of the draft, McDaniels went for the marquee tailback in this one.

Moreno is the highest drafted running back the Broncos have selected since Otis Armstrong in 1973 and the first one they've grabbed in the first round since Steve Sewell in 1985.

Moreno, a third-year sophomore known not only for his nifty moves but his premiere pass protection, had 1,400 yards rushing with 16 touchdowns last season to join Herschel Walker as the only players in school history with back-to-back 1,000-yard seasons.

[shank]

why not just protect yourself and offer them the lesser pick?

[dogfish]

jackasses!


:mad:


FML

[2Fity@The303]

why not just protect yourself and offer them the lesser pick?

I have absolutely no idea...:tsk:

[Ravage!!!]

why not just protect yourself and offer them the lesser pick?

because McDaniels is WAYYY over his head. I like this comment "Asked why he didn't make the draft pick conditional, sending the Seahawks the lesser of the two first-round selections next year, McDaniels said: "We had a conversation about it, but we felt good about it and they did, too.""

Really??:confused: They liked it too? No kidding.... they must still be laughing about that.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

$$$

[Italianmobstr7]

why not just protect yourself and offer them the lesser pick?

Maybe they wouldn't do the deal if they didn't get OUR pick. It doesn't really matter. If the players McD gets in this years draft pan out, none of us will care next year.

[G_Money]

He said they talked about it. I assumed he meant "We and Seattle" when he says "they."

So we said, "Hey, why don't we give you the lesser selection?"

And they said, "How about we get yours, wherever that ends up? Might be the lesser, might not."

And we said okay.

Guess we'd better make sure we don't have the better selection next year. Dunno how we're gonna go about that, but I could see us giving up the #10 or so, and that would be...annoying.

~G

[slim]

:puke:

[dogfish]

He said they talked about it. I assumed he meant "We and Seattle" when he says "they."

So we said, "Hey, why don't we give you the lesser selection?"

And they said, "How about we get yours, wherever that ends up? Might be the lesser, might not."

And we said okay.

Guess we'd better make sure we don't have the better selection next year. Dunno how we're gonna go about that, but I could see us giving up the #10 or so, and that would be...annoying.

~G

you don't think alphonso smith is worth a top ten pick?

[Ravage!!!]

He said they talked about it. I assumed he meant "We and Seattle" when he says "they."

So we said, "Hey, why don't we give you the lesser selection?"

And they said, "How about we get yours, wherever that ends up? Might be the lesser, might not."

And we said okay.

Guess we'd better make sure we don't have the better selection next year. Dunno how we're gonna go about that, but I could see us giving up the #10 or so, and that would be...annoying.

~G
I see us inside the top 8 next year.... thats a pretty hefty trade for a second round CB that isn't special

[Ravage!!!]

Maybe they wouldn't do the deal if they didn't get OUR pick. It doesn't really matter. If the players McD gets in this years draft pan out, none of us will care next year.

It really DOES matter. Because there is a good chance that this kid would have been there ten picks later. Even if not, do you think a there wouldn't have been a top 10 pick next year that wouldn't provide bigger help to this defense or team?

So if he would have been there at 48 (which we obviously will never know).... then you have to figure the player you missed out on in the FIRST round... not just taking Alfonzo with that top 10 pick...but who ELSE you could have gotten in Addition to Smith.

So we will care when our team still sucks and we still have players/positions we must.. MUST... draft. Yet we won't have that pick to GET that player.

I know you are remaining positive, and I understand you are trying to look at it as a "we can't do anything about it now" perspective. But this is just on TOP of the other mismanagment problems we've had this offseason.

[Watchthemiddle]

Doom and Glooooommmm :rolleyes:

[Simple Jaded]

Unless Doogie is the second coming of Vince Lombardi, the Seahawks just turned the 37th pick into a Top10-15 pick.......what's not to like about that?

I wonder how hard Doogie had to sell that trade.......

[Ravage!!!]

Doom and Glooooommmm :rolleyes:

Hey.. the ONLY thing that came out of trading away a stud, Franchise QB.. was getting TWO first round picks this year and next. Now we don't have that, and have to accept this CB as being worth a 1st round pick being worth a top 10 ( minimum)... so yeah, its going to be part of the perspective and discussion this entire year considering what we gave up for him.

[Watchthemiddle]

Hey.. the ONLY thing that came out of trading away a stud, Franchise QB.. was getting TWO first round picks this year and next. Now we don't have that, and have to accept this CB as being worth a 1st round pick being worth a top 10 ( minimum)... so yeah, its going to be part of the perspective and discussion this entire year considering what we gave up for him.

Dooom and Glooom

You just don't see the big picture...as well as most on here. Thats okay though...maybe someday you will.

:coffee:

[bcbronc]

It really DOES matter. Because there is a good chance that this kid would have been there ten picks later. Even if not, do you think a there wouldn't have been a top 10 pick next year that wouldn't provide bigger help to this defense or team?

So if he would have been there at 48 (which we obviously will never know).... then you have to figure the player you missed out on in the FIRST round... not just taking Alfonzo with that top 10 pick...but who ELSE you could have gotten in Addition to Smith.

So we will care when our team still sucks and we still have players/positions we must.. MUST... draft. Yet we won't have that pick to GET that player.

I know you are remaining positive, and I understand you are trying to look at it as a "we can't do anything about it now" perspective. But this is just on TOP of the other mismanagment problems we've had this offseason.

doubtful. two more CBs went between 37 and 48. on most draft sites, Smith is a top 4 CB. including the Broncos at 37, the top 5 CBs on Walter and Draft Countdown (Jenkins, Davis, Butler, Smith, Byrd) were gone. I'd say there was next to ZERO chance Smith would have been there at 48. maybe he won't be worth whatever the #1 is next year, but if we wanted a shot at one of the top CBs we needed to get #37.

[Italianmobstr7]

It really DOES matter. Because there is a good chance that this kid would have been there ten picks later. Even if not, do you think a there wouldn't have been a top 10 pick next year that wouldn't provide bigger help to this defense or team?

So if he would have been there at 48 (which we obviously will never know).... then you have to figure the player you missed out on in the FIRST round... not just taking Alfonzo with that top 10 pick...but who ELSE you could have gotten in Addition to Smith.

So we will care when our team still sucks and we still have players/positions we must.. MUST... draft. Yet we won't have that pick to GET that player.

I know you are remaining positive, and I understand you are trying to look at it as a "we can't do anything about it now" perspective. But this is just on TOP of the other mismanagment problems we've had this offseason.

McDaniels said that he didn't want to wait around to see if the guys they wanted were going to fall for them. They knew who they wanted, and they went and got them by any means necessary. Alphonso Smith is special. He would've been a top 10 pick if he was 3 inches taller. I know that he's not, but he's still a very good player. There's no guarantee that we're giving Seattle a top 10 pick. People are all getting worked up and upset because we didn't draft 5 defensive lineman and lb's, but everyone forgets that we have absolutely no depth at Safety or CB. Well, we didn't. We do now.

If the players we drafted pan out, no one will care about the #1 pick of ours next year unless the Bears do spectacular. Pessimists or "realists" say that Denver is going to be horrible next year, but really nobody knows. Everyone thought Miami would suck last year and they were in the playoffs. Same with Atlanta. Why don't we let McD finish up the draft, and let the players he drafted take the field before we start crucifying him?

[Tempus Fugit]

Unless Doogie is the second coming of Vince Lombardi, the Seahawks just turned the 37th pick into a Top10-15 pick.......what's not to like about that?

I wonder how hard Doogie had to sell that trade.......

Generally speaking, you devalue a pick by 1 round when it's pushed into the next season. That's not exact when you're dealing with 2nd-to-1st conversions, but it's a baseline. The Broncos gave up a potentially high pick, but it's not as if they got crushed in the deal, especially since they'll still have a first round pick next year.

McXanders are clearly taking an aggressive approach to rebuilding the Broncos rather than taking 3-4 seasons to build. Sometimes, to do that, you have to pay just a bit of a premium.

[Ravage!!!]

doubtful. two more CBs went between 37 and 48. on most draft sites, Smith is a top 4 CB. including the Broncos at 37, the top 5 CBs on Walter and Draft Countdown (Jenkins, Davis, Butler, Smith, Byrd) were gone. I'd say there was next to ZERO chance Smith would have been there at 48. maybe he won't be worth whatever the #1 is next year, but if we wanted a shot at one of the top CBs we needed to get #37.

But isn't that the point of the draft...... not just getting the guy you feel you want, but being able to do it at the right value?? If he isn't worth a top ten,f irst round pick next year.... then was/is it the right pick??? Thats the point of the draft, right?

The point I am saying, is that if he was or was NOT there 10 picks later.. missing him isn't near as big a deal compared to giving up a top 10 pick for him..especially if there were other corners that were 'worthy' of the round that the other teams used on corners. Is this smith THAT much better than they are? I don't know. Are they worth a top 10 pick more than they are?

[nevcraw]

Dooom and Glooom

You just don't see the big picture...as well as most on here. Thats okay though...maybe someday you will.

:coffee:

we are just not that smart...

[honz]

No worries, it will be the 32nd pick anyways.

[NameUsedBefore]

Asked if he ever thought he'd pick up a No. 1 pick Saturday, though, Ruskell said, "No, I absolutely did not. Yeah, that kind of came out of the blue."


Translation: Bwahahahaha.

[Watchthemiddle]

But isn't that the point of the draft...... not just getting the guy you feel you want, but being able to do it at the right value?? If he isn't worth a top ten,f irst round pick next year.... then was/is it the right pick??? Thats the point of the draft, right?

The point I am saying, is that if he was or was NOT there 10 picks later.. missing him isn't near as big a deal compared to giving up a top 10 pick for him..especially if there were other corners that were 'worthy' of the round that the other teams used on corners. Is this smith THAT much better than they are? I don't know. Are they worth a top 10 pick more than they are?

Whose says we gave up a top 10 pick for him? Neither the Broncos or the Bears had top 10 picks this year, what leads you to believe either will next year?

If you looked at the trade with logic and heard what McD said about the trade it would make sense for you. He simply said that they think Smith is valued at a 1st rounder next season, therefore giving up the 1st next year is no different than passing on a CB this year and trying to get the same type and talented player in the 1st next season. The thing is, we are playing for this season, not next season or next years draft..so make the trade now and get value for it now. Don't put it off. Logic!

[Ravage!!!]

Translation: Bwahahahaha.

EXACTLY... "yeah, that came out of the blue." Greeeattt :laugh:

[Ravage!!!]

Dooom and Glooom

You just don't see the big picture...as well as most on here. Thats okay though...maybe someday you will.

:coffee:

yeah.. you are just FAR too insightful for the rest of us :coffee:

[Tempus Fugit]

But isn't that the point of the draft...... not just getting the guy you feel you want, but being able to do it at the right value?? If he isn't worth a top ten,f irst round pick next year.... then was/is it the right pick??? Thats the point of the draft, right?

The point I am saying, is that if he was or was NOT there 10 picks later.. missing him isn't near as big a deal compared to giving up a top 10 pick for him..especially if there were other corners that were 'worthy' of the round that the other teams used on corners. Is this smith THAT much better than they are? I don't know. Are they worth a top 10 pick more than they are?

They didn't give up a top 10 pick for him. That's where people making your argument are going wrong.

They gave up a first round pick A YEAR LATER.

[Ravage!!!]

Whose says we gave up a top 10 pick for him? Neither the Broncos or the Bears had top 10 picks this year, what leads you to believe either will next year?

If you looked at the trade with logic and heard what McD said about the trade it would make sense for you. He simply said that they think Smith is valued at a 1st rounder next season, therefore giving up the 1st next year is no different than passing on a CB this year and trying to get the same type and talented player in the 1st next season. The thing is, we are playing for this season, not next season or next years draft..so make the trade now and get value for it now. Don't put it off. Logic!

That must be why carolina made the same 'kind' of trade.... but also got a fourth round pick in return.....

Also must be why Seattle was 'surprised' (as to THEIR own words) that a first round pick was even brought up.... and must be why EVERYONE thinks it was a brilliant idea..... especially when that pick was gathered originally by trading away a franchise player.

So that might be logic in YOUR book.. but thats not logic in almost everyone else's book. I personally hope we don't use much of this kind of logic in the future.

[bcbronc]

But isn't that the point of the draft...... not just getting the guy you feel you want, but being able to do it at the right value?? If he isn't worth a top ten,f irst round pick next year.... then was/is it the right pick??? Thats the point of the draft, right?

The point I am saying, is that if he was or was NOT there 10 picks later.. missing him isn't near as big a deal compared to giving up a top 10 pick for him..especially if there were other corners that were 'worthy' of the round that the other teams used on corners. Is this smith THAT much better than they are? I don't know. Are they worth a top 10 pick more than they are?

if we end up giving up a top 10 pick, you'll be on to something. on the other hand, if Smith turns into a ballhawking nickle back for us next year, and we win our weak division, we'll be giving up 15 spots for an extra year with the guy on the roster. There is an element of risk involved, but I like having a front office with the balls to take some chances--as long as they work out.

[sneakers]

Good for them, they get a top ten pick.

[Ravage!!!]

They didn't give up a top 10 pick for him. That's where people making your argument are going wrong.

They gave up a first round pick A YEAR LATER.

True.. I'm absolutely speculating... and I freely admit that. But going into a season as we are.. changing both offensive and defensive schemes.. while not only relying on a new defensive scheme, but most probably a lot of 'young' defensive (at least new to the team and one another) starters. A completely new QB and a brand new coach with a schedule that is brutal.

So yes.. its speculation that we won't win more games than we did THIS season, and that put us at 12. Is it truly hard to speculate that it will be a top ten pick next season with all that this team has to try and fight through this coming year? Obviously nothing is in stone and/or set, but in my head I'm actually being conservative believing its ONLY a top 10.

So that does ask a question.... what if it IS a top ten pick? Is that worth the difference from teh CB we got, and the CB that would have been there at 48? I obviously don't know yet... but if the kid is only a top 30 player now, why would I believe he's a top 10 player next year when we may, (and quite probably WILL) be needing many of the same positions we need this season as far as the defensive front 7.

[Tempus Fugit]

That must be why carolina made the same 'kind' of trade.... but also got a fourth round pick in return.....

Also must be why Seattle was 'surprised' (as to THEIR own words) that a first round pick was even brought up.... and must be why EVERYONE thinks it was a brilliant idea..... especially when that pick was gathered originally by trading away a franchise player.

So that might be logic in YOUR book.. but thats not logic in almost everyone else's book. I personally hope we don't use much of this kind of logic in the future.

Carolina traded for a lower pick in the second round. Why should it be surprising if they paid less for it?

[Ravage!!!]

if we end up giving up a top 10 pick, you'll be on to something. on the other hand, if Smith turns into a ballhawking nickle back for us next year, and we win our weak division, we'll be giving up 15 spots for an extra year with the guy on the roster. There is an element of risk involved, but I like having a front office with the balls to take some chances--as long as they work out.

of course.. if they work out. But would you, any other year, use a top ten or 15 pick on a nickel back?

[Watchthemiddle]

of course.. if they work out. But would you, any other year, use a top ten or 15 pick on a nickel back?

He's probably only going to be a nickel for the first season until he gets his feet wet....then again, thats what they said about D. Will and correct me if I'm wrong, but he started his Rookie season.

[Ravage!!!]

Carolina traded for a lower pick in the second round. Why should it be surprising if they paid less for it?

still a second for a first, right? So you are saying that they traded away a lower 2nd round pick, for a speculation on a 1st round pick next season, but they should get more for THEIR pick than we got for ours? Why? Because our first round pick is likely to be higher then the one they traded for? Thats my point.

[Ravage!!!]

He's probably only going to be a nickel for the first season until he gets his feet wet....then again, thats what they said about D. Will and correct me if I'm wrong, but he started his Rookie season.

Right.. and terrell davis was a 6th round pick. What does that have to do with anything?

You are TRYING to put things off and look at the results. The RESULTS of us waiting for the 6th round for a RB got us TD....therefor, we shouldn't have taken Moreno. You are saying the becuase Dwill started his rookie season, that the VALUE we used on this player doesn't matter, and that is where we disagree.

[Gamechanger]

Have you ever got kicked in the nuts so bad that it just leaves you crying? I think this is what Xanders and McDaniels is doing

either you guys are trying to make it a blockbuster night tommorow

or Shanahan pooned McDaniels wife

either way it goes, some heads are gonna roll

[Tempus Fugit]

True.. I'm absolutely speculating... and I freely admit that. But going into a season as we are.. changing both offensive and defensive schemes.. while not only relying on a new defensive scheme, but most probably a lot of 'young' defensive (at least new to the team and one another) starters. A completely new QB and a brand new coach with a schedule that is brutal.

So yes.. its speculation that we won't win more games than we did THIS season, and that put us at 12. Is it truly hard to speculate that it will be a top ten pick next season with all that this team has to try and fight through this coming year? Obviously nothing is in stone and/or set, but in my head I'm actually being conservative believing its ONLY a top 10.

So that does ask a question.... what if it IS a top ten pick? Is that worth the difference from teh CB we got, and the CB that would have been there at 48? I obviously don't know yet... but if the kid is only a top 30 player now, why would I believe he's a top 10 player next year when we may, (and quite probably WILL) be needing many of the same positions we need this season as far as the defensive front 7.

It's deliberately looking for a reason to dislike a draft, coach and staff. Why would you waste your energy doing that when you're supposed to be a fan of that team? The Broncos had an extra 2010 first round pick to play with and they decided to use it to try improving the team starting in 2009. This is not the first time in NFL history that such a move has been made. Hell, the Panthers have now done it for the second season in a row. Some people here are using a somewhat common move as an excuse to grind their axes.

As for where the kid would go next year, who cares? He went this year. You should be happy that the team is trying to revamp a Godawful defense right away instead of saving the pick for next year. If nothing else, Denver's defensive secondary should now be in good shape for the next couple of years and the team can focus on the D-line, as well as any LB spots that the front office thinks will need the improvement as the switch to a 3-4 goes forward.

[Tempus Fugit]

still a second for a first, right? So you are saying that they traded away a lower 2nd round pick, for a speculation on a 1st round pick next season, but they should get more for THEIR pick than we got for ours? Why? Because our first round pick is likely to be higher then the one they traded for? Thats my point.

Your point is moot, though, because you're arguing something non-existent. The picks THIS YEAR had different value.

[Watchthemiddle]

Right.. and terrell davis was a 6th round pick. What does that have to do with anything?

You are TRYING to put things off and look at the results. The RESULTS of us waiting for the 6th round for a RB got us TD....therefor, we shouldn't have taken Moreno. You are saying the becuase Dwill started his rookie season, that the VALUE we used on this player doesn't matter, and that is where we disagree.

Well then we can put off getting a NT or another DE or OLB until the 4th -7th rounds then can't we?

Thanks.:coffee:

[Watchthemiddle]

Your point is moot, though, because you're arguing something non-existent. The picks THIS YEAR had different value.

He doesn't get the logic.

[Ravage!!!]

It's deliberately looking for a reason to dislike a draft, coach and staff. Why would you waste your energy doing that when you're supposed to be a fan of that team? The Broncos had an extra 2010 first round pick to play with and they decided to use it to try improving the team starting in 2009. This is not the first time in NFL history that such a move has been made. Hell, the Panthers have now done it for the second season in a row. Some people here are using a somewhat common move as an excuse to grind their axes.

As for where the kid would go next year, who cares? He went this year. You should be happy that the team is trying to revamp a Godawful defense right away instead of saving the pick for next year. If nothing else, Denver's defensive secondary should now be in good shape for the next couple of years and the team can focus on the D-line, as well as any LB spots that the front office thinks will need the improvement as the switch to a 3-4 goes forward.

So because I see we didn't get value, and you see it as a move (good or bad, its a move)... then I'm somehow TRYING to dislike a staff? Come on. I'm making valid points with my dislikes for THIS particular move. Plus, I can't help but have in the back of my mind for the crappy pick of McBath and the trading away of our two 3rd rounders for a TE goes INTo that equation.

But when you trade away a franchise QB (thats the biggest deal, the pick came from THAT trade).. and you use said pick by trading it away for a second round pick (and not getting more compensation to a team that was surprised you even offered the first to begin with).... of course I'm a bit bothered by the choice.

I may not like McDaniels....but I DO root for the Broncos. This pick represents and willbe the FUTURE of this team whether McD is here or not. So when I see a coach trading away top quality talent, then trading what I feel to be a TOP quality pick in next years draft... YEAH... I'm bothered... and I bothered BECAUSE I'm a fan. If I wasn't a fan of THIS team, I wouldn't give a CRAP...but I do because I'm a fan. I'm just not a blind fan.

[bcbronc]

of course.. if they work out. But would you, any other year, use a top ten or 15 pick on a nickel back?

no, but nickel back isn't his ultimate upside. that's my hopes for him for next year.

as you know, CBs take a few years to develop. it's rare to find one that can step in and play at a high level as a rookie. Champ and Goodman are 30+. behind them is JMFW. how much "draft value" do you award for having that extra year of development with the team?

I'm not saying this was a great trade. I'd like it a lot more if we did protect the lower of the two firsts. but if McDaniels has Smith with a late first grade (not unreasonable for a top CB), and feels we have a shot at winning the division next season (not completely unreasonable considering the strength of our division) then this deal works out as "good value". we won't know until we see how we do on the field next year, but imo we're already an improved team from last year.

[Simple Jaded]

Trading a Top10-15 pick for a 2nd or 3d round talent is supposed to have logic?.......

[Ravage!!!]

Well then we can put off getting a NT or another DE or OLB until the 4th -7th rounds then can't we?

Thanks.:coffee:

This didn't even make sense to the post you quoted. If you are going to leave your lousy one liners with your :coffee: at least ATTEMPT to make a point that coincides with what you are quoting.

If you think a team, ANY team.. Realies on BUILDING their team with the lower round picks and EXPECTS them to be starters (rather than hoping to find a gem)... I think you are mistaken. So we can make the picks for a NT /DT in the later rounds... sure. But considering finding a NT/DT that is actually starting caliber for a 34 is one of the hardest positions to fill, I personally won't hold my breath. I'll HOPE.. I'll cheer the guy we draft to do it.... just as I'm hoping Powel works out..... doesn't mean I PREFER to count on these players.

[Tempus Fugit]

So because I see we didn't get value, and you see it as a move (good or bad, its a move)... then I'm somehow TRYING to dislike a staff? Come on. I'm making valid points with my dislikes for THIS particular move. Plus, I can't help but have in the back of my mind for the crappy pick of McBath and the trading away of our two 3rd rounders for a TE goes INTo that equation.

That's just it. You're not making valid points. You claim you are, but you're not.


But when you trade away a franchise QB (thats the biggest deal, the pick came from THAT trade).. and you use said pick by trading it away for a second round pick (and not getting more compensation to a team that was surprised you even offered the first to begin with).... of course I'm a bit bothered by the choice.

Wait.... if it's about THIS particular move, why are you bringing up the franchise QB stuff? You can't even keep your argument straight in a single post.


I may not like McDaniels....but I DO root for the Broncos. This pick represents and willbe the FUTURE of this team whether McD is here or not. So when I see a coach trading away top quality talent, then trading what I feel to be a TOP quality pick in next years draft... YEAH... I'm bothered... and I bothered BECAUSE I'm a fan. If I wasn't a fan of THIS team, I wouldn't give a CRAP...but I do because I'm a fan. I'm just not a blind fan.

The difference is that you've allowed hostility towards McDaniels to blind you to obvious reality. You don't have any idea what next year's pick will be, and you don't have any idea how good a player Smith will be, but you're still crying about the same move that the Panthers made as if it's the end of the world. The move may work, and it may fail, but it's nowhere near as bad as you're making it out to be.


This needs a P.S. I don't think this was a great trade for Denver on its face. I just don't think it's fair of people to go off as if the world stopped rotating on its axis when this front office has never had a single draft to be looked at and compared with for reference.

[Watchthemiddle]

This didn't even make sense to the post you quoted. If you are going to leave your lousy one liners with your :coffee: at least ATTEMPT to make a point that coincides with what you are quoting.

If you think a team, ANY team.. Realies on BUILDING their team with the lower round picks and EXPECTS them to be starters (rather than hoping to find a gem)... I think you are mistaken. So we can make the picks for a NT /DT in the later rounds... sure. But considering finding a NT/DT that is actually starting caliber for a 34 is one of the hardest positions to fill, I personally won't hold my breath. I'll HOPE.. I'll cheer the guy we draft to do it.... just as I'm hoping Powel works out..... doesn't mean I PREFER to count on these players.

It made absolute 100% sense. Go back and read it again...twice if you need too.


The RESULTS of us waiting for the 6th round for a RB got us TD....therefor, we shouldn't have taken Moreno.


I was responding to this quote from you. You are so bent out of shape by us moving up to take a CB and taking an RB in the first and second rounds....by your quote above, we should be able to fill our DL needs in the later rounds. Now do you get my response?

Oh and by the way, your are correct that the NT 3-4 position is hard to fill....but it can be filled. It didn't need to be Raji...it can be a few players that are left...oh and also by the way, NONE of the NT's in the draft are "true" 3-4 NT's according to your vast majority of know-it-alls that you depend on so much for their opinion.

[Tempus Fugit]

Trading a Top10-15 pick for a 2nd or 3d round talent is supposed to have logic?.......

1.) You don't know what the pick will be next year

2.) You devalue picks in the following year by a round, as a general rule. It's slightly different when you're talking about first rounders, but the general concept applies.

3.) How many picks have McXanders proveably failed on in their drafting history? Since the answer is ZERO, you have no idea what sort of faith to even have in their choices, yet you're complaining anyway. If New England, Pittsburgh or Indianapolis had made this move, you probably wouldn't be criticizing it at all, and would instead be talking about how they probably stole another player with a great trade.

[Ravage!!!]

no, but nickel back isn't his ultimate upside. that's my hopes for him for next year.

as you know, CBs take a few years to develop. it's rare to find one that can step in and play at a high level as a rookie. Champ and Goodman are 30+. behind them is JMFW. how much "draft value" do you award for having that extra year of development with the team?

I'm not saying this was a great trade. I'd like it a lot more if we did protect the lower of the two firsts. but if McDaniels has Smith with a late first grade (not unreasonable for a top CB), and feels we have a shot at winning the division next season (not completely unreasonable considering the strength of our division) then this deal works out as "good value". we won't know until we see how we do on the field next year, but imo we're already an improved team from last year.

I can see your point... to a degree. But I don't think we have a good chance of winning the division. I also am not sure we really are better. I don't think we are better on offense or defense. Like you said, corners take a while to develop, as do DE/OLBs.... and we are switching systems and don't really have any NTs for our 34.

I DO believe because of the vets be brought in, that our DBs are better for sure. But over the last 3 (more than that I know) years, has it been our DBs that have been the weakness? So it comes down to what have we done to improve the DL (as you know, and I know I'm not telling you anything here). Thus why the pick, or the use of that draft pick, to get a DB is what REALLY bothers me. I mean we can say the value of experience is needed...absolutely. But I would say the same thing about spending that draft choice to grab a DT/DE/DL or whatever.

Those positions need time as well. So, to me, its not so much THE player, but the position of the player that I feel we lost value in the trade.... not tomention other teams were actually able to aquire more with similar trades.

[slim]

1.) You don't know what the pick will be next year

2.) You devalue picks in the following year by a round, as a general rule. It's slightly different when you're talking about first rounders, but the general concept applies.

3.) How many picks have McXanders proveably failed on in their drafting history? Since the answer is ZERO, you have no idea what sort of faith to even have in their choices, yet you're complaining anyway. If New England, Pittsburgh or Indianapolis had made this move, you probably wouldn't be criticizing it at all, and would instead be talking about how they probably stole another player with a great trade.

Great post.

TVM...for lack of a better term. Next years 10 != this year 10.

[Ravage!!!]

I was responding to this quote from you. You are so bent out of shape by us moving up to take a CB and taking an RB in the first and second rounds....by your quote above, we should be able to fill our DL needs in the later rounds. Now do you get my response?

No, because thats not what I said at all :laugh: No wonder you are always off on your own world with responses.

I'm not bent out of shape for taking a RB.. I used the TD example in response to your "if Dwill started, why can't Smith" post you made. The point being, with that line of thinking why not just EXPECT all 6th round RBs to start like TD. My post had NOTHING to do with being upset or bothered at taking moreno.

Also.. read my post again. Where did I say that we SHOULD be able to fill our DL needs in the later rounds?? Didn't I flat out say that although we can pick the players, I wouldn't rely or count on them starting??? :confused:


Oh and by the way, your are correct that the NT 3-4 position is hard to fill....but it can be filled. It didn't need to be Raji...it can be a few players that are left...oh and also by the way, NONE of the NT's in the draft are "true" 3-4 NT's according to your vast majority of know-it-alls that you depend on so much for their opinion.

Again.. of course they CAN be... just like a RB CAN be filled by a 6th round pick, or even a QB CAN be filled by a 6th round choice...... but that doesn't mean I would want to RELY on them to be my starting caliber players. None of the DTs are 'true' 3-4 NTs... but I would much rather take a Brown in a position of DIRE need than to take a chance on a DB. Like I said to bc, its not so much THE player himself, as it is the choice of position considering the need we all know this team has needed for years. Its just the same frustrations that have been expressed about ignoring the TRUE need of this defense for years now.

[NameUsedBefore]

1.) You don't know what the pick will be next year

No. But there are some concrete facts involved, like #1-32 > #37.

Nevermind that many agree next year's draft will be much stronger than this one's.



2.) You devalue picks in the following year by a round, as a general rule. It's slightly different when you're talking about first rounders, but the general concept applies.

I think your concepts here change more than "slightly" if this pick is in the teens or worse.



3.) How many picks have McXanders proveably failed on in their drafting history? Since the answer is ZERO, you have no idea what sort of faith to even have in their choices, yet you're complaining anyway. If New England, Pittsburgh or Indianapolis had made this move, you probably wouldn't be criticizing it at all, and would instead be talking about how they probably stole another player with a great trade.

Actually I'm pretty sure we would be laughing at them. Regardless, did you notice that they've never given us the chance?

[NameUsedBefore]

P.S.

On next year's schedule: San Diego, New England, Dallas, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, NY Giants, Indianapolis, Philadelphia. Also KC and Oakland who we habitually lose at least one game to.



Translation: This will not end well.

[Simple Jaded]

1.) You don't know what the pick will be next year

2.) You devalue picks in the following year by a round, as a general rule. It's slightly different when you're talking about first rounders, but the general concept applies.

3.) How many picks have McXanders proveably failed on in their drafting history? Since the answer is ZERO, you have no idea what sort of faith to even have in their choices, yet you're complaining anyway. If New England, Pittsburgh or Indianapolis had made this move, you probably wouldn't be criticizing it at all, and would instead be talking about how they probably stole another player with a great trade.

Not true, there is almost no chance those teams will be picking in the Top10.

Smith is not a 1st round pick in this or any other draft, and I put more value on next years picks because the likelyhood of Denver going 4-12 and because next years draft is nowhere near this pathetic.

You can rationalize this bullshit move all you want, I'm not buying it.......

[Simple Jaded]

The 49ers traded a Top10 pick for Joe Staley, who's a decent player, it sure as hell isn't a smart trade.

You'd hope Mike Nolan would have advised against this little fuk up.......

[Northman]

I said this in the other thread. The fact that NE wheeled and dealed and still got Brace AND a top tier CB pisses me off. We could of traded up and took Brace (which would of been the better pick to me) and then taken any DB in Butler, Smith, Sean Smith, Byrd, etc if need be. I think NE made out like bandits today.

[Tempus Fugit]

No. But there are some concrete facts involved, like #1-32 > #37.

Nevermind that many agree next year's draft will be much stronger than this one's.

First, the #1-32 > #37 is not an accurate response, and you must surely know that. The Broncos did NOT trade this year's #1-32 for this year's #37. You're deliberately mis-stating the situation in order to frame the discussion inaccurately but slanted to your side of the argument.



I think your concepts here change more than "slightly" if this pick is in the teens or worse.

No, it doesn't. Why would it? It's a sunk cost of a first rounder, no matter where in the first round it may end up. The Patriots would be a great example. Had they traded their first round pick away, some team would have gotten a better pick (20's) than it would likely have been had Brady not gotten injured (30's). That wouldn't somehow make the sample trade a worse one for the Patriots in terms of an "at the time" move, because the location is not exclusive of what happened subsequently.


Actually I'm pretty sure we would be laughing at them. Regardless, did you notice that they've never given us the chance?

They've given you the chance time and again, actually. Trading down and then 'reaching' for Mayo happened just last year. Hell, the Patriots just did it again this year by trading completely out of round 1. Now, those aren't exact examples, but the point is the same: You analyze these moves in part based upon past history, and this Broncos front office has no past draft history.

[Tempus Fugit]

Not true, there is almost no chance those teams will be picking in the Top10.

Smith is not a 1st round pick in this or any other draft, and I put more value on next years picks because the likelyhood of Denver going 4-12 and because next years draft is nowhere near this pathetic.

You can rationalize this bullshit move all you want, I'm not buying it.......

Yes, but your hostility towards the new regime isn't reasonable, so your "not buying" it comes as no surprise. Frankly, I'd guess that the Broncos could have gotten Curry, Crabtree and Raji for nothing more than 2 firsts and a 3rd rounder and you'd be complaining that they didn't shore up some other positions.

When you make yourself such an unreasonable critic as you've allowed yourself to become, you make your opinion on matters such as these worthless since it can't be looked at as anything approaching fair and unbiased.

[silkamilkamonico]

Not sure what to think about Denver anymore.

We were garbage under the last regime with Shanahan, and now we're trading first round picks for second round picks.

I'll reserve judgment until I see results (or lack of), but to think I actually laughed at Mike Shanahan for trading a third round pick for a 4th(Thomas), and now we're trading away first round picks for second round picks.

[NameUsedBefore]

First, the #1-32 > #37 is not an accurate response, and you must surely know that. The Broncos did NOT trade this year's #1-32 for this year's #37. You're deliberately mis-stating the situation in order to frame the discussion inaccurately but slanted to your side of the argument.

Um, no I'm not. Unless you think my exclusion of what year it was means I was misstating the situation which it wasn't. I kind of assumed everyone understood what the trade was.

The trade: Next year's #1-32 for this year's #37.

Or, next year's #1-32 for Alphonso Smith.

It will be next year's #1-32 for Alphonso Smith, period.




No, it doesn't. Why would it? It's a sunk cost of a first rounder, no matter where in the first round it may end up. The Patriots would be a great example. Had they traded their first round pick away, some team would have gotten a better pick (20's) than it would likely have been had Brady not gotten injured (30's). That wouldn't somehow make the sample trade a worse one for the Patriots in terms of an "at the time" move, because the location is not exclusive of what happened subsequently.

No I'm pretty sure no matter how the #1-32 turns out Seattle wins. You still have a 5-pick gap sitting there and that's in the best case scenario. Worst case scenario and you have... well, it's bad... And the value of each successive pick not compensated for will only accrue in value.



They've given you the chance time and again, actually. Trading down and then 'reaching' for Mayo happened just last year. Hell, the Patriots just did it again this year by trading completely out of round 1. Now, those aren't exact examples, but the point is the same: You analyze these moves in part based upon past history, and this Broncos front office has no past draft history.

No, they didn't do any trades like this. Broncos traded up this year by forfeiting their first next year. I don't know of any other teams who have made this kind of trade other than the Panthers who, at the very least, got some compensation for their stupidity (a 5th rounder, IIRC). Nevermind the Panthers looked like a Superbowl team last year; they're looking to win now. A trade like this makes some sense with that kind of immediate future.

Broncos aren't going anywhere soon. We're building. You don't build by trading away your first round pick going into a season where the schedule looks like it's going to mop the floor with you. This time next year we're going to begging we had that pick back, I guarantee it.

[BroncoBJ]

When we traded up, I honestly thought we would get Maualuga or Brace. I was actually kinda happy. Thinking that we were piecing our defense and getting the pieces we needed. I was thinking MAYBE Rey at 37 and then Brace at 48. Although they both got taken by 48 anyways. At the time, That was my mindset.

Then we got a CB that I didn't know much about. And I was pretty puzzled. We signed a lot of help to the secondary in Free Agency so WTF @ that? :confused:

Then I was waiting to see what we gave up. And found out it was a 1st next year :lol:

I mean.. WOW... I thought maybe a 2nd next year and like a 5th this year or something. I was thinking it would be something along those lines. But McDaniels just pays the price.

If we win, then I don't care who does what. But as of right now, I cant help but to laugh.
But maybe hes getting the talented players now in his eyes. And then on day 2, he will get a bunch of Dlinemen to come in and compete. If we draft 4 Defensive linemen tommorow, Chances are that 1 of them will pan out.
And then he'll draft a late round QB. :elefant:

I got some faith in what McDaniels is doing. I'm just confused on everything.
It seems like ages since we got Dawkins.

[honz]

My guess is that no one was really looking to trade back in that area of picks, so the Broncos were forced to overpay a little bit in order to get the guy they wanted. McDaniels makes it sound like Smith was a mid first round pick on their draft board, and that's probably what they gave up.

[Fan in Exile]

I like the confidence that they gave up the natural pick. It just shows they aren't counting on sucking this season. The team better have more hope than the fans do because if they were as desperate as we are there is no way that they'd even be getting out of bed in the morning.

[Joel]

why not just protect yourself and offer them the lesser pick?
Exactly. I love these two quotes from the article, by the way:


Obviously, with two ones, you can do a lot of things. You can go just about anywhere you want to go in the round. That's a nice option to have," Ruskell said.You can go just about anywhere you want--except into the Top Ten.

"Taking Knowshon first and Robert second paid off and worked the way we thought it would," McDaniels said.That's a very astute assessment considering they've been on the team all of one day.

I hope it works out, that Ayers has the versatility claimed in the article, but I'm still dubious. And missing a NT. That's something I'd like to think we can still take care of but I also recall the thread last off season and Dream or Deans (I always confuse the names; sorry, guys) copiously documented posts on how Second Day defensive tackles rarely perform well. It seemed counterintuitive to me that there aren't more cloggers out there, but the gist seemed to be that while it may not be the most sophisticated role the athletes who excel at it among the elites are rare, easy to identify and in high demand: They don't make it to Day Two very often.

[jrelway]

seattle bent us over real nice. thanks again xanders and mcdaniels.

[Joel]

seattle bent us over real nice. thanks again xanders and mcdaniels.
Hard to dispute. The bottom line is that even with all the wheeling and dealing we couldn't get a Top Ten pick, but Seattle has a Top Five pick this year and likely another Top Ten next year. I know the Draft is a crap shoot, but the less players taken before your pick the better chance that at least a few of them will translate into more wins. I hope our new gurus are as smart as they think they are.

[jrelway]

smart my ass. these guys have no clue. a first round pick is hard to come by. how you let that go just baffles me. and for what. we got shit in return.

[Denver27og]

Good freakin job mcdik

[Italianmobstr7]

Ravage and Link:

WE DON'T KNOW WHERE DENVER'S PICK WILL BE NEXT YEAR. STOP SAYING THAT IT'S A TOP 10-15 PICK BECAUSE NONE OF US HAVE ANY IDEA WHERE IT WILL BE!

Just because YOU don't like what Denver did and don't agree with it, doesn't mean that everyone is wrong and you guys are right.

JayCutler4MVP:

We didn't get "a lot of help in the secondary" in free agency. We got 3 players. That we HAD to have because we had nobody else. Our Defensive backfield NEEDED depth. Without our 2 draft picks used there so far our DB looks like this.

CB: Champ, JMFW, Goodman, Bell 4 CB's? Obviously CB was a need, and we got the best one that was available. We traded up to get a ballhawking CB who reminds people a lot Asante Samuel.

S: Dawkins, Hill, Barrett, Fox Safety was obviously a need with the older players and NO depth.

The players we traded up for or "reached" on were players that we need THIS year. I don't care about next years picks.

Also, people saying that we have no one to play Nose in the 3-4. Ronald Fields was the 49ers NT in the 3-4. He's pretty good at it too. We also got J'Vonne Parker. And we have Marcus Thomas. So we need another DT or 2, but we can get them later. We got great players for where we were picking even if we did trade more than YOU think we should have.

[weazel]

:slitmywrists:

[Ravage!!!]

so because I don't know, and you don't know.. you are telling me to STOP expressing my opinion. Ooooo Kayyy

[Ravage!!!]

Trading away a franchise QB hurts... the ONLY thing that people used to try and 'claim' we were better off was the fact that we got 1st, 1st, 3rd....and Orton

we turned that into 1st, 2nd, 5th... and orton.

There is no way our pick Next season is going to be better than this year's 12th pick. So even if its the same.....

[Tned]

The ONLY way trading away the franchise QB doesn't hurt is if we win. McDaniel's is drafting and acting like he thinks we can win now, and not 2 or 3 years from now. If he gets us a winning record against our vicious '09 schedule, a lot will be forgiven/forgotten.

[Ravage!!!]

The ONLY way trading away the franchise QB doesn't hurt is if we win. McDaniel's is drafting and acting like he thinks we can win now, and not 2 or 3 years from now. If he gets us a winning record against our vicious '09 schedule, a lot will be forgiven/forgotten.

Then I'll say it again because I do wonder..... IF we didn't trade away Jay Cutler, would we have made the SAME picks? Would we have traded away our 'natural' first next year for this db, or was it purely because we had Chicago's?? IF this guy is a guy that is intended to help win NOW, why wouldn't we use that pick to get him?

Is McDaniels PUSHING to try and reach for players BECAUSE he feels the pressure of trading away the franchise QB? I think so. There is no way anyone logically can expect us to have a higher (lower?) pick than what we had THIS year at 12. This DB just is not worth a top 15 pick in the draft.

Mayock is a guy that is very respected on these boards, and he is EXTREMELY critical of this draft choice.

Some here are saying "I like he's being aggressive".... that sounds great, but if we aren't being aggressive with the players this team really needs, is that a good thing? People want to compliment him by "sticking to his board"... is that really a good thing?? The draft if fluid and you have to be able to adjust and move as the draft progresses.

[Tned]

I think Mayock liked the pick, not using next years first to get him.

Now, we have all seen the Broncos torched by slot receivers, so if this kid can step in and win a starting nickel job, he could pay off immediately. Lot of if's, of course.

If we still had Cutler, would we have used our only first rounder on Moreno, or would we have gone Orakpo or Ayers at 12? No way to know.

[Ravage!!!]

Analysis: NFL Network analysts Charley Casserly, Mike Mayock and Michael Lombardi are in agreement on this trade: Smith is not worth next year's first round pick. They think the price is too high for a cornerback who is only 5-foot-9 with questionable speed. "It’s a little dangerous to trade away next year’s one," Lombardi said. "You’re taking a chance, especially on a corner, and a small corner at that. That bothers me." The Seahawks will receive the Broncos' natural pick in 2010 and not the one acquired from the Bears for Cutler.

[Ravage!!!]

well.. again... its not the player, its teh value. Taking a player is fine, but it ALLLL comes down to the value you used for him. We could have gotten "our guy" in Smith in the first round if they simply wanted to stick to their board. So yeah... I'm sure he's an ok player, but for the value we used on him, THATS what takes away from the pick.

[Joel]

Ravage and Link:

WE DON'T KNOW WHERE DENVER'S PICK WILL BE NEXT YEAR. STOP SAYING THAT IT'S A TOP 10-15 PICK BECAUSE NONE OF US HAVE ANY IDEA WHERE IT WILL BE!

Just because YOU don't like what Denver did and don't agree with it, doesn't mean that everyone is wrong and you guys are right.
You're right no ones crystal is better than anyone elses, but they're making our first round pick look better and better all the time....

The players we traded up for or "reached" on were players that we need THIS year. I don't care about next years picks. More on this presently....


Also, people saying that we have no one to play Nose in the 3-4. Ronald Fields was the 49ers NT in the 3-4. He's pretty good at it too. We also got J'Vonne Parker. And we have Marcus Thomas. So we need another DT or 2, but we can get them later. We got great players for where we were picking even if we did trade more than YOU think we should have.Nothing (and everything) I've heard indicates Thomas is a 3-4 NT. Those are first and foremost hulking cloggers; if they can play multi-technique and rush the QB that's a nice bonus, but their primary function is to leave whoever tries to run in the middle of the field (AND their center and guards) a whimpering quivering heap ground into the turf. That ain't Marcus Thomas, or anyone else who's 305. Most NFL guards are bigger than him, so he's not going to manhandle them, and that's never been his style anyway; he's more art than force from what I'm told (and I concede I've not been able to see the games much between work and the Broncos no longer being an attractive out of area draw.)

The ONLY way trading away the franchise QB doesn't hurt is if we win. McDaniel's is drafting and acting like he thinks we can win now, and not 2 or 3 years from now. If he gets us a winning record against our vicious '09 schedule, a lot will be forgiven/forgotten.
The sad truth of coaching in most professional sports these days is that's the way most new coaches have to act to keep their jobs. They come to teams on the way down whose fans are already upset and if they don't produce quickly they have those irate fans screaming for their heads. With, realistically, the ability to pickup MAYBE half a dozen long term contributors between free agency and the draft each year, you're looking at 4 or 5 years to do a full rebuild--but most new head coaches have two or three years, tops.

So they draft accordingly, picking up guys who mollify fans in the short term and sell tickets, but quite often don't significantly improve their W/L record. Think Matt Leinart in Arizona, or Stafford in Detroit. Indeed, historically those are two of my best examples of perpetual cellar dwellers who can't improve because they can't find a coach who has the time to build a whole team and the courage to suffer through a few miserable seasons while they do. The best counterexample is Jimmy Johnson when the Cowboys were 1-15; they took their lumps and four years later they were in the Super Bowl (though it wasn't that sudden, but they also had the advantage of the Walker trade and the draft picks they got from their 3-13 season in '88.) Personally, I think Pat Bowlen's savvy enough to know that 1) He didn't make his fortune selling football tickets and merchandise and 2) It's still his team to do with as he pleases, however much we complain. Whether McDaniels knows and will utilize the opportunity that provides him remains to be seen....

Meanwhile we have a sexy RB and DE, the two things Denver fans seem to demand most year in and year out, but for the fourth year straight we have very little to stop the Tomlinsons of the League from plowing up the gut for 6 yards per carry.