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RebelRocker
04-11-2012, 11:40 AM
On the Fan just a few minutes ago, Sandy Clough reported that we re-signed Justin Bannan. Don't have a link or solid source outside of that, but will update when I get something.


UPDATE:

He is back. Broncos have agreed to terms with DT Justin bannan.

https://twitter.com/#!/mikeklis

NightTerror218
04-11-2012, 11:43 AM
some DT depth at least.

jhildebrand
04-11-2012, 11:58 AM
I seriously thinkg this is a sign the broncos are going to go bandaid at the DT position and hope Fox and Del Rio can scheme around the deficiencies so they can draft O at #25.

underrated29
04-11-2012, 12:08 PM
ha rah ha rah, we signed an old mediocre DT....

I guess that report from the OM guys is getting more accurate. I think I shall change my sig.

RebelRocker
04-11-2012, 12:10 PM
ha rah ha rah, we signed an old mediocre DT....

I guess that report from the OM guys is getting more accurate. I think I shall change my sig.

What report?

silkamilkamonico
04-11-2012, 12:12 PM
Not really sure who will be in our range at #25 as far as DT is concerned.

Poe is climbing up the charts.

Cugel
04-11-2012, 12:15 PM
I seriously thinkg this is a sign the broncos are going to go bandaid at the DT position and hope Fox and Del Rio can scheme around the deficiencies so they can draft O at #25.

What could possibly go wrong with that plan?! It's an awesome plan! And it's not as if we have any previous experience from the last 10 years when it's been tried to suggest it won't work either!

http://www.nlhs.com/images/hindenburg/big_hindenburg_explodes_over_lakehurst.jpg

"This administration isn't sinking like the Titanic! This administration is soaring. . . . like the mighty Hindenburg!"

-- Steven Colbert

MOtorboat
04-11-2012, 12:17 PM
Championship.

bcbronc
04-11-2012, 12:18 PM
Competion for depth/rotational positions and he can play a little DE in run situations.nothing special but he's a DT so I will rejoice.

Pudge
04-11-2012, 12:19 PM
I hope we can draft the best player available not just draft a mediocre player because we have to

DenBronx
04-11-2012, 12:19 PM
Poe is a high risk to be a BUST.

What has he exactlly done in college again???

Cugel
04-11-2012, 12:21 PM
Championship.

You got THAT right, man! :beer:

Jamal Williams. . . I mean Sam Adams. . . . I mean Dewayne Robertson. . . . No, I mean Gerrard Warren. . . No, I mean Justin Bannan is going to lead us to the promised land! We're sure to have an awesome defense now! Woot! Woot!

BroncoWave
04-11-2012, 12:26 PM
I seriously thinkg this is a sign the broncos are going to go bandaid at the DT position and hope Fox and Del Rio can scheme around the deficiencies so they can draft O at #25.

Yeah, because Fox or Del Rio have neeevvvveeeerrrrr placed any sort of emphasis on DT. Kris Jenkins, Marcus Stroud, and John Henderson just don't exist!

jhildebrand
04-11-2012, 12:26 PM
What could possibly go wrong with that plan?! It's an awesome plan! And it's not as if we have any previous experience from the last 10 years when it's been tried to suggest it won't work either!

http://www.nlhs.com/images/hindenburg/big_hindenburg_explodes_over_lakehurst.jpg

"This administration isn't sinking like the Titanic! This administration is soaring. . . . like the mighty Hindenburg!"

-- Steven Colbert

Maybe we can get Simeon Rice back again. I hear he stays in wicked good shape. :tsk: I hear Warren Sapp is broke. Maybe we can coax him out of retirement. Give Michael Dean Perry a call.

Dontari Poe is about the ONLY DT I don't want called when the Broncos select.

I bet they bet on Warren and Bannan. If we Go RB with the first pick I will go ballistic all over these boards!

underrated29
04-11-2012, 12:27 PM
What report?



That we value the DTs in the later rounds, and are looking to trade out of the first, and that if it goes to plan where a guy does not fall and we do trade out we will not be selecting a DT or RB or defensive player with our first pick (which will be 2nd rnd- if it all falls into place)-------could be total mumbo jumbo, could be accurate, to much variation can occur between then and now, but makes sense with Bannon being back, again.

BroncoWave
04-11-2012, 12:29 PM
If we Go RB with the first pick I will go ballistic all over these boards!

:lol: Yeah that'll change EFX's mind!

jhildebrand
04-11-2012, 12:30 PM
Yeah, because Fox or Del Rio have neeevvvveeeerrrrr placed any sort of emphasis on DT. Kris Jenkins, Marcus Stroud, and John Henderson just don't exist!

I never said they didn't :confused:

Who was the QB for those teams again? :confused: Who was the GM for those teams again? :confused:

Where did Deangelo and Jonathon Stewart get drafted again? :confused:

I don't think it takes a stretch of the imagination to surmise as much as I have.

jhildebrand
04-11-2012, 12:30 PM
:lol: Yeah that'll change EFX's mind!

That wouldn't be my intention :lol:

Cugel
04-11-2012, 12:31 PM
I hope we can draft the best player available not just draft a mediocre player because we have to

When you're talking about Broncos DTs mediocre is a big step up! Who do they have who's mediocre? Mediocre means having a DT who is about the league average talent level for NFL starting DTs. NOT ONE of the Bronocs DTs is as good as "mediocre."

Vickerson is a marginal player. He's probably their best DT and he would be unlikely to start for any other team in the NFL. He's the only DT they have who is close to mediocre.

Thomas was well below mediocre Bunkley was mediocre (decent run stuffer, no pass-rush). Of course they are gone.

Back in 2009 Justin Bannan played for the Ravens. They had enough sense not to start him and got rid of him at the end of that season because his skills were declining and they don't keep mediocre DTs on the Ravens. His last good year was 2008. That's 4 years ago people!

So, he came to the Broncos, where he was barely mediocre on a horrible DL in 2010. Then he went to the pitiful Rams, where he started for their horrible defense and wound up with 25 tackles and 6 assists in 14 games. And it's not like that high-powered Rams offense was keeping their defense off the field and denying Bannan a chance to make plays! :coffee:

That's not a good player. That's a 33 year old guy who should be in retirement, but is trying to squeeze yet another year out of his old, worthless carcass.

jhildebrand
04-11-2012, 12:33 PM
Amobi Okoye was signed for a 1 year deal and about $2million. I would rather that than Justin "on his backside" Bannan.

BroncoWave
04-11-2012, 12:34 PM
When you're talking about Broncos DTs mediocre is a big step up! Who do they have who's mediocre?

Vickerson is a marginal player. He's probably their best DT and he would be unlikely to start for any other team in the NFL.

Back in 2009 Justin Bannan played for the Ravens. They had enough sense not to start him and got rid of him because his skills were declining and they don't keep mediocre DTs on the Ravens.

So, he came to the Broncos, where he was barely mediocre in 2010. Then he went to the pitiful Rams, where he started for their horrible defense and wound up with 25 tackles and 6 assists in 14 games. And it's not like that high-powered Rams offense was keeping their defense off the field and denying Bannan a chance to make plays! :coffee:

That's not a good player. That's a guy who should be in retirement, but is trying to squeeze 1 more year out of his old, worthless carcass.

Awful, awful, awful logic. You don't draft a guy in the first round who you think will be mediocre just because he will be an upgrade to a position of weakness. That is what bad teams do. You draft TALENT in the first round who can go out and help you win games as soon as possible. I'd rather draft a stud RB or CB who will come in and start and help us win games right away than a marginal DT who will just be another rotation guy. If there is a DT at 25 who EFX thinks can be a quality starter then I would absolutely want them to draft him. But just drafting a position for the sake of drafting a position is the dumbest draft strategy you can employ.

jhildebrand
04-11-2012, 12:39 PM
Awful, awful, awful logic. You don't draft a guy in the first round who you think will be mediocre just because he will be an upgrade to a position of weakness. That is what bad teams do. You draft TALENT in the first round who can go out and help you win games as soon as possible. I'd rather draft a stud RB or CB who will come in and start and help us win games right away than a marginal DT who will just be another rotation guy. If there is a DT at 25 who EFX thinks can be a quality starter then I would absolutely want them to draft him. But just drafting a position for the sake of drafting a position is the dumbest draft strategy you can employ.

At some point, teams can and should draft BPA. This isn't the team nor the point for this team. This team doesn't have that luxury. They have too many holes. DT is the most glaring. It has been for years. That isn't even getting into the depth issues.

This team went Moreno at 12. Should we re-visit that experiment. The fact is it is a crap shoot whether you employ BPA or drafting position of need.

BroncoWave
04-11-2012, 12:40 PM
At some point, teams can and should draft BPA. This isn't the team nor the point for this team. This team doesn't have that luxury. They have too many holes. DT is the most glaring. It has been for years. That isn't even getting into the depth issues.

This team went Moreno at 12. Should we re-visit that experiment. The fact is it is a crap shoot whether you employ BPA or drafting position of need.

Filling a need with a bust is not filling a need. If Denver reaches for a DT in the first round who they don't think is worth it just to fill the position, that would be a monumental mistake.

I'm glad we didn't pick a DT just to have a DT at 2 last year or we wouldn't have Von Miller.

jhildebrand
04-11-2012, 12:44 PM
Filling a need with a bust is not filling a need. If Denver reaches for a DT in the first round who they don't think is worth it just to fill the position, that would be a monumental mistake.

I'm glad we didn't pick a DT just to have a DT at 2 last year or we wouldn't have Von Miller.

But all appearances are Dareus would have been just as fine a pick. Of course picking at #2 is probably easier than 25.

In the Moreno draft Orakpo was sitting there. Need. Ziggy Hood. Need. C Matthews. Need. Maualuga. Need. Any of those would have been better than Moreno. But we were told Moreno was BPA. How is that working out? :confused:

Cugel
04-11-2012, 12:45 PM
Maybe we can get Simeon Rice back again. I hear he stays in wicked good shape. :tsk: I hear Warren Sapp is broke. Maybe we can coax him out of retirement. Give Michael Dean Perry a call.

Dontari Poe is about the ONLY DT I don't want called when the Broncos select.

I bet they bet on Warren and Bannan. If we Go RB with the first pick I will go ballistic all over these boards!

I know you were being sarcastic but did you forget that they actually TRIED to use Simeon Rice after he was cut by the Bucs back in the Shanahan era? :laugh: He came in and was totally washed up, lasted about 3 weeks and didn't make the team. I think they tried the same thing that year with Jimmy Kennedy who was a former first round pick cut by the Rams -- because he sucked and was worthless. And he sucked in Denver and didn't make the 53 man roster.

AS for Micheal Dean Perry, it's also ironic. When Shanahan cut him in mid-season for being unable to do his job anymore (they cut him in mid-season, let him work out for a while, brought him back and then cut him again when it was obvious he still sucked), one of the Broncos players said "at other positions, you're a player, but at DT you're just a man."

The body just wears out playing DT from all the grinding. Like Sam Adams, Jamal Williams and DeWayne Robertson, Justin Bannan knows perfectly well what to do. He's a 12 year veteran. He knows what the play is and where to go to stuff it.

He just can't get his old broken down body to respond any more. The Broncos signed him like a baseball team signs an emergency short-stop. As a stop-gap measure.

Only it's ALWAYS "stop-gap" DTs when it comes to the Broncos. They've been relying on stop-gaps for the last 12 years!

claymore
04-11-2012, 12:46 PM
That we value the DTs in the later rounds, and are looking to trade out of the first, and that if it goes to plan where a guy does not fall and we do trade out we will not be selecting a DT or RB or defensive player with our first pick (which will be 2nd rnd- if it all falls into place)-------could be total mumbo jumbo, could be accurate, to much variation can occur between then and now, but makes sense with Bannon being back, again.

That would be so sweet if we could trade out of the first for a future first. That kind of luck only happens to NE though. :(

BroncoWave
04-11-2012, 12:46 PM
But all appearances are Dareus would have been just as fine a pick. Of course picking at #2 is probably easier than 25.

In the Moreno draft Orakpo was sitting there. Need. Ziggy Hood. Need. C Matthews. Need. Maualuga. Need. Any of those would have been better than Moreno. But we were told Moreno was BPA. How is that working out? :confused:

Has nothing to do with this year's draft. Different regime made that pick. And yeah, sometimes you get it wrong. That has nothing to do with my point. You have to draft who you THINK will be the best player at that spot. Obviously you won't always get it right, but that doesn't mean you should adopt a sub-par draft strategy because of it.

Cugel
04-11-2012, 12:57 PM
Awful, awful, awful logic. You don't draft a guy in the first round who you think will be mediocre just because he will be an upgrade to a position of weakness. That is what bad teams do. You draft TALENT in the first round who can go out and help you win games as soon as possible. I'd rather draft a stud RB or CB who will come in and start and help us win games right away than a marginal DT who will just be another rotation guy. If there is a DT at 25 who EFX thinks can be a quality starter then I would absolutely want them to draft him. But just drafting a position for the sake of drafting a position is the dumbest draft strategy you can employ.

I was being sarcastic, but the truth is there are several DTs who could be available at #25 in the first round who are considered by other teams to be worthy of a 1st round grade, i.e. they will be solid starters (at least) in the NFL and have potential to be excellent players. Devon Still is an example. There are several others.

You're not very likely to get an All-Pro player at #25. It CAN happen, (Clay Matthews) but a bunch of other teams have to miss out on that player first (like McMoron did).

It's not as if whatever OTHER position they draft at #25 is going to be an automatic can't miss All Pro. :coffee:

At some point you have to draft DTs in the first and second round like every other team in the NFL does. If you don't have ANY starting caliber DTs then assuming there is a first round prospective DT available, then you better use your first round pick to get one!

That doesn't mean you totally reach for a DT if Fletcher Cox, Poe, Brockers, Still and Worthy are all gone by #25, but if one of those players is still available then they damn well better draft him! :mad:

GEM
04-11-2012, 01:02 PM
Maybe we can go for a Jarvis Moss type in the first just because DT is essential. Then we can pass on a Dwayne Bowe type because we already have a Jabar Gaffney type on the roster.


:laugh:

Yes we NEED a DT....but then again, we NEED a lot of things. So don't take the worst of one thing while leaving the best of another thing on the board for another team to grab.

Cugel
04-11-2012, 01:04 PM
Filling a need with a bust is not filling a need. If Denver reaches for a DT in the first round who they don't think is worth it just to fill the position, that would be a monumental mistake.

I'm glad we didn't pick a DT just to have a DT at 2 last year or we wouldn't have Von Miller.

No, we'd have Marcel Dareus who is already looking like a future All-Pro DT after his first season. Wouldn't THAT have been awful! :rolleyes:

GEM
04-11-2012, 01:05 PM
No, we'd have Marcel Dareus who is already looking like a future All-Pro DT after his first season. Wouldn't THAT have been awful! :rolleyes:

Instead we have Von Miller who already is a DROY (Dareus could have gotten that award too, ya know). Isn't THAT awful? :D

jhildebrand
04-11-2012, 01:06 PM
I know you were being sarcastic but did you forget that they actually TRIED to use Simeon Rice after he was cut by the Bucs back in the Shanahan era? :laugh: He came in and was totally washed up, lasted about 3 weeks and didn't make the team. I think they tried the same thing that year with Jimmy Kennedy who was a former first round pick cut by the Rams -- because he sucked and was worthless. And he sucked in Denver and didn't make the 53 man roster.

AS for Micheal Dean Perry, it's also ironic. When Shanahan cut him in mid-season for being unable to do his job anymore (they cut him in mid-season, let him work out for a while, brought him back and then cut him again when it was obvious he still sucked), one of the Broncos players said "at other positions, you're a player, but at DT you're just a man."

The body just wears out playing DT from all the grinding. Like Sam Adams, Jamal Williams and DeWayne Robertson, Justin Bannan knows perfectly well what to do. He's a 12 year veteran. He knows what the play is and where to go to stuff it.

He just can't get his old broken down body to respond any more. The Broncos signed him like a baseball team signs an emergency short-stop. As a stop-gap measure.

Only it's ALWAYS "stop-gap" DTs when it comes to the Broncos. They've been relying on stop-gaps for the last 12 years!

Yep. I remember it all. I also remember, and always hear Shanahan saying "Micahel Dean Perry couldn't get his ass off the field" every time the guys' name is mentioned.

I agree with you completely. Other than Poe, if Fox, Brockers, Worthy, or Still are there than they better take him. If not and Thompson is there in the 2nd, that would be fine too.

I just have the fear this FO thinks they can go all out O and smoke teams and not even need a D. Problem is you can't get the ball when the other team can run up the middle at will.

Cugel
04-11-2012, 01:08 PM
Maybe we can go for a Jarvis Moss type in the first just because DT is essential. Then we can pass on a Dwayne Bowe type because we already have a Jabar Gaffney type on the roster.


:laugh:

Yes we NEED a DT....but then again, we NEED a lot of things. So don't take the worst of one thing while leaving the best of another thing on the board for another team to grab.

I'm not suggesting we trade a 3rd round pick to move up to #17 and grab a player that everybody else in the NFL thinks is a marginal 1st round talent. That was Mike Shanahan's brain fart and it was the WORST Broncos draft mistake . . . until McMoron came to town and blew the lid off by being an even worse GM than Matt Millen!

There are plenty of DTs in this draft who are considered GOOD first round prospects. At least FIVE will be taken in the first round or at the beginning of the second. Denver should get one of them! Cox, Poe, Brockers, Still, Worthy. One of them at least, maybe 2, should fall to #25. Grab that guy! :salute:

GEM
04-11-2012, 01:12 PM
I'm not suggesting we trade a 3rd round pick to move up to #17 and grab a player that everybody else in the NFL thinks is a marginal 1st round talent. That was Mike Shanahan's brain fart and it was the WORST Broncos draft mistake . . . until McMoron came to town and blew the lid off by being an even worse GM than Matt Millen!

There are plenty of DTs in this draft who are considered GOOD first round prospects. At least FIVE will be taken in the first round or at the beginning of the second. Denver should get one of them! Cox, Poe, Brockers, Still, Worthy. One of them at least, maybe 2, should fall to #25. Grab that guy! :salute:


If one of those type guys are available, hell yea. If they are gone and all that is left is shitty players, don't.

It seems pretty logical, but we are talking about the team that really did that Moss deal.

:lol:

I think we agree in principal. It's just fun to argue.

BigDaddyBronco
04-11-2012, 01:13 PM
So a lot of teams regularly draft a position as part of their system. Shanny drafted interior linemen that could fit his zone blocking system in later rounds for example. For the DLine a good example would be the Giants. They draft DT's and DE's almost every year regardless of need and it could be argued that the strength of their DLine along with a good QB has netted them two SB's.

Here is a breakdown over the last 10 years of guys drafted for their DLine.

2011
2nd rnd 52nd pick Marvin Austin DT North Carolina

2010
1st rnd 15th pick Jason Pierre-Paul DE South Florida
2nd rnd 46th pick Linval Joseph DT East Carolina

2009
no DLine picks

2008
7th rnd 199th pick Robert Henderson DE Southern Mississippi

2007
3rd rnd 81st pick Jay Alford DT Penn State

2006
1st rnd 32nd pick Mathias Kiwanuka DE Boston College
4th rnd 124th pick Barry Cofield DT Northwestern

2005
2nd rnd 74th pick Justin Tuck DE Notre Dame
4th rnd 186th pick Eric Moore DE Florida State

2004
3rd rnd 97th pick Reggie Torbor DE Auburn
7th rnd 253th pick Isaac Hilton DE Hampton

2003
1st rnd 25th pick William Joseph DT Miami (FL)
2nd rnd 56th pick Osi Umenyiora DE Troy

2002
no DLine picked


That is a lot of 1st - 3rd rounders used on the DLine. All of their top players on their DLine were homegrown, not FA scrubs. There are other ways to win championships, but a good QB and great OLines and DLines make it much easier.

Denver Native (Carol)
04-11-2012, 01:13 PM
I think it was either yesterday on Mike Evans/Joel Klatt, or possibly Drew Goodman/Scott Hastings, where one of them said that the thinking in not drafting a DT high might be because now, with Manning, the team we were playing would be playing "catch up", which would indicate more passing than running.

Cugel
04-11-2012, 01:13 PM
But all appearances are Dareus would have been just as fine a pick. Of course picking at #2 is probably easier than 25.

In the Moreno draft Orakpo was sitting there. Need. Ziggy Hood. Need. C Matthews. Need. Maualuga. Need. Any of those would have been better than Moreno. But we were told Moreno was BPA. How is that working out? :confused:

That is the draft that still causes me to fantasize punching McMoron in the face whenever I think about it:

Broncos could have drafted Orakpo AND Matthews BOTH instead of Moreno and Ayers! And it's not as if those guys were amazing surprise stars either . Everybody and his brother expected us to draft Orakpo, but McDaniels just laughed and took Moreno, while the Redskins looked on in stunned silence for a second or two and just scooped their winnings by sending in their card for Orakpo.

Cugel
04-11-2012, 01:15 PM
I think it was either yesterday on Mike Evans/Joel Klatt, or possibly Drew Goodman/Scott Hastings, where one of them said that the thinking in not drafting a DT high might be because now, with Manning, the team we were playing would be playing "catch up", which would indicate more passing than running.

Until you get to the playoffs when the team you face will have Tom Brady at QB and it will be up to the Broncos defense to stop them once in a while. :coffee:

We've seen that scenario play out a few times with the Colts versus the Patriots! :rolleyes:

BigDaddyBronco
04-11-2012, 01:20 PM
I think it was either yesterday on Mike Evans/Joel Klatt, or possibly Drew Goodman/Scott Hastings, where one of them said that the thinking in not drafting a DT high might be because now, with Manning, the team we were playing would be playing "catch up", which would indicate more passing than running.

That is all fine and dandy, but one of the ways teams would beat the Colts when Manning was in his prime, was to run the ball against the Colts defense and control the clock. Keep Manning off the field and he has a harder time beating you.

Additionally, if you get DT's that can rush the passer and disrupt the pocket you can play havoc on the other teams passing game all day long. Add a couple decent pass rushing DT's to Doom and Miller and they would dominate.

BroncoWave
04-11-2012, 01:43 PM
No, we'd have Marcel Dareus who is already looking like a future All-Pro DT after his first season. Wouldn't THAT have been awful! :rolleyes:

I'll take a guy like Von Miller who looks to have the potential to be the best defensive player in the NFL.

Jsteve01
04-11-2012, 02:16 PM
I still think you're being a little hard on Bannan Cugel. Throwing out his stats and acting like 24 tackles means he's horrid is just flat ludicrous. Guess how many the top NT in FA this year had? 27. Obviously Bannan is a bargain bin signing but he has always been stout vs the run and that's what they're looking for with that signing.

GEM
04-11-2012, 02:23 PM
I also think it is silly to think that a team signing a FA they are already familiar with automatically means they aren't going to address it in the draft. Even with the signing, my best guess is that they will still address it in the draft.

MOtorboat
04-11-2012, 02:24 PM
I still think you're being a little hard on Bannan Cugel. Throwing out his stats and acting like 24 tackles means he's horrid is just flat ludicrous. Guess how many the top NT in FA this year had? 27. Obviously Bannan is a bargain bin signing but he has always been stout vs the run and that's what they're looking for with that signing.

The Rams were the second worst run defense team in the league.

Jsteve01
04-11-2012, 02:34 PM
The Rams were the second worst run defense team in the league.

i understand that Mo, but he's not the only guy on that line. His numbers were fine for a 4-3 NT

NightTerror218
04-11-2012, 02:34 PM
The Rams were the second worst run defense team in the league.

He played well for us 2 years ago, but he is a rotational player not a starter.

Ziggy
04-11-2012, 03:05 PM
The Rams were the second worst run defense team in the league.

And Bannan was the 8th best run defender in the league. What's your point Mo? The guy is a quality backup run stopper. The Broncos signed him to a one year deal. Everyone is acting like the Broncos went all in on him and gave him a big contract to be the DT of the future. He's a solid rotational guy for 1st and 2nd downs.

http://manwiththemuckrake.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/98_chicken_little.gif

BORDERLINE
04-11-2012, 03:13 PM
BOOOOOO hate this pickup. It's whatever

Cugel
04-11-2012, 04:04 PM
Instead we have Von Miller who already is a DROY (Dareus could have gotten that award too, ya know). Isn't THAT awful? :D

There's nothing wrong with Von Miller, but let's not pretend he's necessarily going to have a better career than Dareus. As of right now, both look like Pro-Bowl athletes for many years to come.

And we still don't have a DT to go with Dumervil. Having an elite DT who can consistently penetrate, demand double-teams and collapse the pocket would probably give Dumervil the chance to break Strahan's sack record, because the QB wouldn't be able to step up into the pocket to avoid Doom.

Ultimately we'll see who is better over the long-term, but DT was a bigger need and still is.

Jsteve01
04-11-2012, 04:09 PM
There's nothing wrong with Von Miller, but let's not pretend he's necessarily going to have a better career than Dareus. As of right now, both look like Pro-Bowl athletes for many years to come.

And we still don't have a DT to go with Dumervil. Having an elite DT who can consistently penetrate, demand double-teams and collapse the pocket would probably give Dumervil the chance to break Strahan's sack record, because the QB wouldn't be able to step up into the pocket to avoid Doom.

Ultimately we'll see who is better over the long-term, but DT was a bigger need and still is.

so SAM wasn't a need? I understand that getting DT was and is a huge need, but we literally had no one on the team that fit the SAM role in a 4-3 defense and top 10 DTs have historically been avg players. Von Miller was hands down the best SAM in the league last year. Obviously huge as a pass rusher but PFF had him as the best 4-3 backer vs the run as well. Dareus was very good but you'd have a hard time making the argument that he's the best at his position.

NightTerror218
04-11-2012, 04:23 PM
Von Miller rarely missed a tackle all season. His pass protection needs a little work. But he is a pass rush specialist with an iron grip that tackles anyone. He had 11.5 sacks and 21 tackles for a loss.

Cugel
04-11-2012, 04:28 PM
So a lot of teams regularly draft a position as part of their system. Shanny drafted interior linemen that could fit his zone blocking system in later rounds for example. For the DLine a good example would be the Giants. They draft DT's and DE's almost every year regardless of need and it could be argued that the strength of their DLine along with a good QB has netted them two SB's.

Here is a breakdown over the last 10 years of guys drafted for their DLine.

2011
2nd rnd 52nd pick Marvin Austin DT North Carolina

2010
1st rnd 15th pick Jason Pierre-Paul DE South Florida
2nd rnd 46th pick Linval Joseph DT East Carolina

2009
no DLine picks

2008
7th rnd 199th pick Robert Henderson DE Southern Mississippi

2007
3rd rnd 81st pick Jay Alford DT Penn State

2006
1st rnd 32nd pick Mathias Kiwanuka DE Boston College
4th rnd 124th pick Barry Cofield DT Northwestern

2005
2nd rnd 74th pick Justin Tuck DE Notre Dame
4th rnd 186th pick Eric Moore DE Florida State

2004
3rd rnd 97th pick Reggie Torbor DE Auburn
7th rnd 253th pick Isaac Hilton DE Hampton

2003
1st rnd 25th pick William Joseph DT Miami (FL)
2nd rnd 56th pick Osi Umenyiora DE Troy

2002
no DLine picked


That is a lot of 1st - 3rd rounders used on the DLine. All of their top players on their DLine were homegrown, not FA scrubs. There are other ways to win championships, but a good QB and great OLines and DLines make it much easier.

This is a point that a lot of people miss. Eli Manning is an elite QB, but he plays in the NFC where there are other QBs who are probably even better in Drew Brees and Aaron Rogers, and whose teams arguably have more talent overall than the Giants (certainly Green Bay's offense is a LOT better).

Yet the Giants manage to win with really excellent defense. Their first championship is even more impressive in that they beat the 18-0 Patriots team that everybody was touting as the "Greatest Team of All-Time." They did it by getting intense pass-rush pressure right up the middle into Brady's face with just 4 DL. Very few blitzes.

Not many teams can do that consistently, and there's simply no answer for it. If you can overwhelm the middle of the OL with 4 pass-rushers then even Tom Brady is helpless to do anything about it, and a team that's used to scoring at least 30 points a game with a roster stuffed with offensive talent scored 13.

You would think a defensive coach like Fox would appreciate that and would spend money in FA and draft picks to shore up the middle of his defense. But, there's zero sign of that.

Instead they re-signed Joe Mays who is a heavy hitter, but can't cover and is FAR from an elite MLB and failed to sign any good DTs.

I'm not saying they need to go out and blow $100 million on a DT like Washington did with Albert Haynesworth, but they could at least have TRIED a little harder to get a DT FA who isn't 33 years old and is nothing more than a backup 1 year rental.

At this point the only hope they have that their DT rotation is going to be even marginally ADEQUATE is if Warren comes back strong after not starting since 2009 and Vickerson stays healthy and exceeds expectations.

Those are not two very likely scenarios. A rookie DT especially a first rounder, would be a wonderful addition, but Devon Still, Poe, Brockers or Worthy is not going to come in and be an instant success. A 2nd or 3rd round DT who can't rush the passer or generate any consistent inside pressure will have even less impact.

It's more of a long-term investment. One that's badly needed so they aren't ALWAYS in this situation.

I've been writing since 2006 about how the Broncos desperately need to spend a 1st or second round draft pick on finding a good DT and they haven't drafted one at all in the last 5 years!

The highest pick they spent since 2002 was Marcus Thomas 4th rounder.

Cugel
04-11-2012, 04:37 PM
And Bannan was the 8th best run defender in the league. What's your point Mo? The guy is a quality backup run stopper. The Broncos signed him to a one year deal. Everyone is acting like the Broncos went all in on him and gave him a big contract to be the DT of the future. He's a solid rotational guy for 1st and 2nd downs.

http://manwiththemuckrake.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/98_chicken_little.gif

I'd be surprised if he is a quality anything at 33. There's a reason why there aren't many 33 year old DTs in the NFL. Their bodies wear out and it can happen quite suddenly as it did to Michael Dean Perry -- who was a much better DT than Bannan ever was. But, you can suddenly get old at that position, and it isn't always due to injuries.

It's actually much MORE likely that the Broncos will find that Ty Warren isn't remotely the same DT he was when he was last seen in 2009 (how can anybody tell if he hasn't played a game in nearly 3 years? Even though he hasn't taken any hits during his extended three year vacation, he's still getting older like everybody else). And they will find what all the league knows, that Vickerson is not a good starting DT, but is a career backup.

Then they will find that Bannan has very limited mobility and that the middle of their defense is quite weak, generating almost zero interior pass-rush pressure.

Frankly, their best pass-rushing DT is likely to be Ryan McBean -- assuming he returns in game shape from his suspension and is able to become again the mediocre player he was last season.

Cugel
04-11-2012, 04:46 PM
so SAM wasn't a need? I understand that getting DT was and is a huge need, but we literally had no one on the team that fit the SAM role in a 4-3 defense and top 10 DTs have historically been avg players. Von Miller was hands down the best SAM in the league last year. Obviously huge as a pass rusher but PFF had him as the best 4-3 backer vs the run as well. Dareus was very good but you'd have a hard time making the argument that he's the best at his position.

If you're seriously going to argue that LB was and is a bigger need than DT then I give up. You're hopeless. I'm not saying there was no need for any good LBs. There was and still is. (They could really use an Al Wilson at MLB about now).

But, having DTs who are "historically good" means absolutely NOTHING! By that logic they should resurrect Reggie White and put him in because he was "historically good." :rolleyes:

I've pointed out over and OVER again the hideous series of FA signings of "historically good" players -- NONE of whom were good anymore but it doesn't seem to sink in.

Jamal Williams, Sam Adams (both former pro-bowlers), DeWayne Robertson, and now Ty Warren. Everyone of those players was a really good DT at one point in their careers. But, by the time they got to Denver they were completely washed up.

And I'm rather afraid the same can be said of Justin Bannan. EFX is just keeping their fingers crossed and hoping they luck out as they did with Bunkley last year -- i.e. hoping that some FA who's cut by his former team can come in and not totally suck for a year and that none of the aging and marginal veterans they have gets hurt and lost for the season again. :coffee:

Jsteve01
04-11-2012, 04:46 PM
See here's the thing. I agree with you guys completely on this issue, Im just not willing to bash every other signing or pick we make because we need a tackle. As deep as the class was last year, after we went with Miller in the 1st it was tough to argue with their thinking as Safety and O line were also huge needs and the two tackles with 2nd round grades had huge red flags. Paea coming off a knee and Austin with some pretty big character concerns. Now the guy I would have liked was Jurrell Casey and I think a very good case can obviously be made that we should have picked him over Irving, but in all fairness. Irving was another player at a huge position of need. Our current situation is the result of poor personnel moves that predate even the McD fiasco and won't in all honesty be fixed in two offseasons.

Jsteve01
04-11-2012, 04:52 PM
If you're seriously going to argue that LB was and is a bigger need than DT then I give up. You're hopeless. I'm not saying there was no need for any good LBs. There was and still is. (They could really use an Al Wilson at MLB about now).

But, having DTs who are "historically good" means absolutely NOTHING! By that logic they should resurrect Reggie White and put him in because he was "historically good." :rolleyes:

I've pointed out over and OVER again the hideous series of FA signings of "historically good" players -- NONE of whom were good anymore but it doesn't seem to sink in.

Jamal Williams, Sam Adams (both former pro-bowlers), DeWayne Robertson, and now Ty Warren. Everyone of those players was a really good DT at one point in their careers. But, by the time they got to Denver they were completely washed up.

And I'm rather afraid the same can be said of Justin Bannan. EFX is just keeping their fingers crossed and hoping they luck out as they did with Bunkley last year -- i.e. hoping that some FA who's cut by his former team can come in and not totally suck for a year and that none of the aging and marginal veterans they have gets hurt and lost for the season again. :coffee:

set your ever intrusive coffee cup avatar down for a minute and read my post. What I said was that DTs drafted in the top 10 have busted more often than they've panned. Then you factor in the fact that Dareus had altogether average numbers and it's not hard to see why they went with the perennial all american over Dareus. If you're so single minded as to miss the fact that Broncos not only nabbed the best SAM in the league last year but also got one of the best young pass rushers in the game all in one pick then this debate will be lost on you. The only freaking reason Dareus was even being discussed that high was because of the previous year's success in Suh and McCoy. His body of work didn't justify a pick that high. Miller's did.

claymore
04-11-2012, 04:52 PM
See here's the thing. I agree with you guys completely on this issue, Im just not willing to bash every other signing or pick we make because we need a tackle. As deep as the class was last year, after we went with Miller in the 1st it was tough to argue with their thinking as Safety and O line were also huge needs and the two tackles with 2nd round grades had huge red flags. Paea coming off a knee and Austin with some pretty big character concerns. Now the guy I would have liked was Jurrell Casey and I think a very good case can obviously be made that we should have picked him over Irving, but in all fairness. Irving was another player at a huge position of need. Our current situation is the result of poor personnel moves that predate even the McD fiasco and won't in all honesty be in two offseasons.

Elway's made huge, ginormous strides all in a year. He inherited a complete freaking turd.

Lets not forget it was his first draft, and he picked the DPOY

Some miss Tebow, and didnt like that move, but now Elway can focus on the draft with ZERO distractions or fears of fan uprisals if the right guy slides to him. As smooth as they have been (EFX) over the past year makes me completley trust their decisions will be made for the best of the team. No more ego picks like McD or Shannahan. I love our front office.

Canmore
04-11-2012, 05:09 PM
Elway's made huge, ginormous strides all in a year. He inherited a complete freaking turd.

Lets not forget it was his first draft, and he picked the DPOY

Some miss Tebow, and didnt like that move, but now Elway can focus on the draft with ZERO distractions or fears of fan uprisals if the right guy slides to him. As smooth as they have been (EFX) over the past year makes me completley trust their decisions will be made for the best of the team. No more ego picks like McD or Shannahan. I love our front office.

The mess Elway inherited was steaming. We were as bad as it gets in the NFL. Absolutely terrible. At least now we are respectable. The personnel decisions seem well thought out. I know we all would like All-Pros at every position but at least now we are not fielding the most talent depleted team in the league. So far I'm willing to ride with EFX for a while. Looking forward to the draft.

HORSEPOWER 56
04-11-2012, 05:59 PM
I'd be willing to bet that signing Bannan will now keep the Broncos from drafting a DT in the first 3 rounds. Same shit every year, patch the DL with rundown, over the hill, FAs. :tsk:

This wasn't a "good" signing for us, IMO.

rationalfan
04-11-2012, 06:07 PM
my thoughts: it's not worth spending big money on the DT position unless it's a big time player the broncos are paying for. those kinds of DTs rarely ever get on the market. you have to draft them. speaking of that, i hope the broncos draft the best PLAYER available in the first round. seems like too many DTs are reached for in the first two rounds.

the 25th spot in the round is ideal; it's a great place to find very talented players slide into your lap - regardless of whether it's a position of need or not.

dogfish
04-11-2012, 06:47 PM
my thoughts: it's not worth spending big money on the DT position unless it's a big time player the broncos are paying for. those kinds of DTs rarely ever get on the market. you have to draft them.

which makes it particularly disappointing that we missed out on chances at guys like brandon mebane, barry coefield and paul soliai the last two years. . .

bcbronc
04-11-2012, 07:52 PM
which makes it particularly disappointing that we missed out on chances at guys like brandon mebane, barry coefield and paul soliai the last two years. . .

Sure, but we did land guys like Ty Warren, Justin Bannan and Ron Fields. Can't sign everybody. :lol:

dogfish
04-11-2012, 07:58 PM
Sure, but we did land guys like Ty Warren, Justin Bannan and Ron Fields. Can't sign everybody. :lol:

i hate you. . . :tsk:






:laugh:

Nomad
04-11-2012, 08:43 PM
Nothing really to say other than opposing QB/RBs are relieved that Denver's going with retread dlineman again.:balloons:

BigDaddyBronco
04-11-2012, 09:29 PM
which makes it particularly disappointing that we missed out on chances at guys like brandon mebane, barry coefield and paul soliai the last two years. . .

Or that we drafted Cutler instead of Ngata...

jhildebrand
04-11-2012, 11:00 PM
I know we all would like All-Pros at every position but at least now we are not fielding the most talent depleted team in the league.

At 1-4 this season and 6-27 under Orton we were the most talent depleted team in the league. Not only opinion but echoed by many scouting ranking agencies. There was one major change and that is in NY now. I am not turning this into a thread about he who shall not be mentioned but I am also not willing to pretend like the 1-4 roster isnt still hanging around.

The two most glaring needs/holes on the 1-4 and 6-27 was O line play and run D esp up the middle!

Canmore
04-11-2012, 11:07 PM
At 1-4 this season and 6-27 under Orton we were the most talent depleted team in the league. Not only opinion but echoed by many scouting ranking agencies. There was one major change and that is in NY now. I am not turning this into a thread about he who shall not be mentioned but I am also not willing to pretend like the 1-4 roster isnt still hanging around.

The two most glaring needs/holes on the 1-4 and 6-27 was O line play and run D esp up the middle!

We've added some pieces but still have a ways to go. Our run defense looks just as suspect as ever. We will see about the offensive line.

Simple Jaded
04-11-2012, 11:16 PM
Bannan is 32 and he signed a one year deal, I don't see how this signing could possibily mean any less to Denver's draft plans, if they wanted a DT before the signing they want one now. This is about depth, imo.......

Mannway187
04-12-2012, 02:16 AM
There are currently 8 defensive tackles on our roster including Bannon. Of those 8 only four are over 300lbs. In order to effectively stop runs up the middle a team needs to have those big 300+ pounders that are not easily moved or plowed over by 320+ pound offensive lineman. Now only 3 of those 8 have been in the NFL for over six years, Bannon 10 yrs, Warren 9 yrs, and Vickerson 6 yrs. The Broncos are loaded with DT that have no experience in the NFL. One, Ben Garland is still serving his Air Force commitment. One I never heard of, Sealver Siliga is listed as a rookie 6'2" 307 lber from Utah. And Jeremy Jarmon at 6'3" 286 lbs out of Kentucky with only 3 yrs exp.
We were and still are to light in the middle of our DL which makes signing Bannon important since he is now our heaviest DT at 312lbs. None of the DTs available when we pick in round 1 are going to change that. Since we can't get a Mario Williams sized guy to anchor the defensive tackle position then we will either trade down or take the best available big back that can catch passes and keep drives alive on 3rd or 4th and inches.
If we couldn't stop Pittsburgs third string RB from gaining 130+ yards then were not ready for any of the first string backs we will see during the season. Lets not forget that Mcfadden had some pretty big games against us the last couple years. Now that our former defensive coordinator is his new head coach they are sure to attack the parts of our defense which Allen knows is the weakest, especially now that Bunkley is not there.
The Patriots didn't have a running game last year so they used their TE's. It wasn't the DT fault we couldn't stop them. They exploited our other big weakness, the one that nobody really talks about. We need a safety that can lay these guys out. If they get rocked after they get the ball they'll remember it the next time and that becomes a game changer. But there aren't any of that type safety available in this draft either so we signed Mike Adams and hope he can provide some heat in the middle of the field and be a positive influance on last years rookies.
The bottom line is that we needed some size up the middle and Bannon was the biggest guy willing to sign with us. Not our first choice and hopefully Del Rio can turn one of the 7 others into the run stuffer we need. If not then Manning better be even better than he was before his injury or we'll be watching the playoffs on TV.

Jsteve01
04-12-2012, 08:29 AM
erm manway uh Mario Williams aint going to anchor your line from the dt position. He's an end. I do agree with you on the size factor. i also think that JDR has always had big athletic tackles which is encouraging. We'll see what the draft brings.

TXBRONC
04-12-2012, 09:04 AM
I think it was either yesterday on Mike Evans/Joel Klatt, or possibly Drew Goodman/Scott Hastings, where one of them said that the thinking in not drafting a DT high might be because now, with Manning, the team we were playing would be playing "catch up", which would indicate more passing than running.

It's a two edge sword. It worked well for Manning and Colts during the regular season but it had tendency not to work so well in the playoffs. Polian as good as he was at picking talent never went out of his way to get quality defensive tackles for his defense and that would bite them in the rear end once they got to the playoffs. So anyone that is calling for Denver to draft a defensive tackle in this draft has a very good case imo. That said I still want EFX to take the best player available.

TXBRONC
04-12-2012, 09:21 AM
set your ever intrusive coffee cup avatar down for a minute and read my post. What I said was that DTs drafted in the top 10 have busted more often than they've panned. Then you factor in the fact that Dareus had altogether average numbers and it's not hard to see why they went with the perennial all american over Dareus. If you're so single minded as to miss the fact that Broncos not only nabbed the best SAM in the league last year but also got one of the best young pass rushers in the game all in one pick then this debate will be lost on you. The only freaking reason Dareus was even being discussed that high was because of the previous year's success in Suh and McCoy. His body of work didn't justify a pick that high. Miller's did.

According to Fox what one of things that put Miller ahead Dareus is that he would immediately improve team speed on defense. Other than that Fox and Elway said they would have had no problem taking Dareus. To be fair how many rookie defensive tackles come in and have the kind of impact that Suh did? I can't think of one that has done that in recent times.

SpringsBroncoFan
04-12-2012, 09:28 AM
There are currently 8 defensive tackles on our roster including Bannon. Of those 8 only four are over 300lbs. In order to effectively stop runs up the middle a team needs to have those big 300+ pounders that are not easily moved or plowed over by 320+ pound offensive lineman. Now only 3 of those 8 have been in the NFL for over six years, Bannon 10 yrs, Warren 9 yrs, and Vickerson 6 yrs. The Broncos are loaded with DT that have no experience in the NFL. One, Ben Garland is still serving his Air Force commitment. One I never heard of, Sealver Siliga is listed as a rookie 6'2" 307 lber from Utah. And Jeremy Jarmon at 6'3" 286 lbs out of Kentucky with only 3 yrs exp.
We were and still are to light in the middle of our DL which makes signing Bannon important since he is now our heaviest DT at 312lbs. None of the DTs available when we pick in round 1 are going to change that. Since we can't get a Mario Williams sized guy to anchor the defensive tackle position then we will either trade down or take the best available big back that can catch passes and keep drives alive on 3rd or 4th and inches.
If we couldn't stop Pittsburgs third string RB from gaining 130+ yards then were not ready for any of the first string backs we will see during the season. Lets not forget that Mcfadden had some pretty big games against us the last couple years. Now that our former defensive coordinator is his new head coach they are sure to attack the parts of our defense which Allen knows is the weakest, especially now that Bunkley is not there.
The Patriots didn't have a running game last year so they used their TE's. It wasn't the DT fault we couldn't stop them. They exploited our other big weakness, the one that nobody really talks about. We need a safety that can lay these guys out. If they get rocked after they get the ball they'll remember it the next time and that becomes a game changer. But there aren't any of that type safety available in this draft either so we signed Mike Adams and hope he can provide some heat in the middle of the field and be a positive influance on last years rookies.
The bottom line is that we needed some size up the middle and Bannon was the biggest guy willing to sign with us. Not our first choice and hopefully Del Rio can turn one of the 7 others into the run stuffer we need. If not then Manning better be even better than he was before his injury or we'll be watching the playoffs on TV.

The one guy is Barron, and Garland will have his shot to be on the team - he's going to be available...

BigDaddyBronco
04-12-2012, 09:28 AM
It's a two edge sword. It worked well for Manning and Colts during the regular season but it had tendency not to work so well in the playoffs. Polian as good as he was at picking talent never went out of his way to get quality defensive tackles for his defense and that would bite them in the rear end once they got to the playoffs. So anyone that is calling for Denver to draft a defensive tackle in this draft has a very good case imo. That said I still want EFX to take the best player available.

Everyone knows that I have a love affair with DT's. Probably because they are big fat bastages like myself. I'm hoping they get one DT in the 1st 2 rounds and another one in the 4th or 5th so they can at least start the process of building through the draft. I'm ok with BPA in the 1st round if it is in one of the areas of need. Like if the drafted Konz to be the new C or one of the top CB's or LB's fell I wouldn't go nuts. If they don't draft a DT or draft one in the 6th round, I'm probably going to bitch.

Chef Zambini
04-12-2012, 09:36 AM
NEED vs BPA.
NEED must be addressed as the priority!

one need only look at the LIONS who drafted a WR in the first round 3 consecutive years because that was the BPA ! with the SHORT manning window, NEED also has priority over BPA !

with all our holes to be filled, I dont understand how we can select someone who fills a need and is also amongst the best players available!

if the strategy allows for the pursuit of a position in a latter pick, only then can we pass on filling a need, but if we are not "carefill" that same strategy can backfire on EFX, lioke last seasons draft, when they FAILED to come away with ANY DT talent.
consequently, DT remains a need for this years draft once again !
we have holes to fill. lets not be distracted by the bright shiny objects oin the window!
thats a JMCD mentality!
if i go to the store for eggs, i dont come home with bread.

TXBRONC
04-12-2012, 10:08 AM
Everyone knows that I have a love affair with DT's. Probably because they are big fat bastages like myself. I'm hoping they get one DT in the 1st 2 rounds and another one in the 4th or 5th so they can at least start the process of building through the draft. I'm ok with BPA in the 1st round if it is in one of the areas of need. Like if the drafted Konz to be the new C or one of the top CB's or LB's fell I wouldn't go nuts. If they don't draft a DT or draft one in the 6th round, I'm probably going to bitch.

You're not alone in that regard. I hope Denver drafts a couples defensive tackles this year. Hopefully the ones that are available are the bpa when it's Denver's turn to draft. Also if the philosophy is to take the bpa shouldn't that hold true for the entire draft?

TXBRONC
04-12-2012, 10:26 AM
NEED vs BPA.
NEED must be addressed as the priority!

one need only look at the LIONS who drafted a WR in the first round 3 consecutive years because that was the BPA ! with the SHORT manning window, NEED also has priority over BPA !

with all our holes to be filled, I dont understand how we can select someone who fills a need and is also amongst the best players available!

if the strategy allows for the pursuit of a position in a latter pick, only then can we pass on filling a need, but if we are not "carefill" that same strategy can backfire on EFX, lioke last seasons draft, when they FAILED to come away with ANY DT talent.
consequently, DT remains a need for this years draft once again !
we have holes to fill. lets not be distracted by the bright shiny objects oin the window!
thats a JMCD mentality!
if i go to the store for eggs, i dont come home with bread.

I personally wouldn't about Detriot and three receivers that they took. In 2005 when they took Mike Williams they left DeMarcus Ware and Shawn Merriman. Those two were taken with picks 11 and 12 and IIRC both were considered top ten prospects.

Mannway187
04-12-2012, 11:15 AM
erm manway uh Mario Williams aint going to anchor your line from the dt position. He's an end.

Somehow I knew he was a DE. My bad. Guess I got rolling and forgot to read what I rote. But at least you cought what I was throwing out there. I also reconize that there are a number of DTs in this years draft that do tip the scales well over that 300lb range. So I'm sure we will pick at least 1 heavyweight early if it's the right guy. Let Brockers or Cox fall to 25 and we'd be all to happy to add either one. I hope they say no on Poe and 25 might be to high for Worthy to. Whoever our pick is I'm confident that this front office will make sure he doesn't turn out like Mike Croel.

Cugel
04-12-2012, 07:27 PM
See here's the thing. I agree with you guys completely on this issue, Im just not willing to bash every other signing or pick we make because we need a tackle. As deep as the class was last year, after we went with Miller in the 1st it was tough to argue with their thinking as Safety and O line were also huge needs and the two tackles with 2nd round grades had huge red flags. Paea coming off a knee and Austin with some pretty big character concerns. Now the guy I would have liked was Jurrell Casey and I think a very good case can obviously be made that we should have picked him over Irving, but in all fairness. Irving was another player at a huge position of need. Our current situation is the result of poor personnel moves that predate even the McD fiasco and won't in all honesty be fixed in two offseasons.

That's what I tried to say to myself last year when they drafted Rahim Moore. "Maybe it'll work out."

Only they just dumped him down the depth chart after one year by signing Mike Adams to come in ahead of him. SO, it looks just like what I thought it would be at the time: a BUSTED pick.

So, the critics were right. They should have taken a DT in the second!

ShaneFalco
04-12-2012, 09:31 PM
ugh bannan was so bad as a Ram last year. I dont understand this

HORSEPOWER 56
04-13-2012, 08:20 AM
so SAM wasn't a need? I understand that getting DT was and is a huge need, but we literally had no one on the team that fit the SAM role in a 4-3 defense and top 10 DTs have historically been avg players. Von Miller was hands down the best SAM in the league last year. Obviously huge as a pass rusher but PFF had him as the best 4-3 backer vs the run as well. Dareus was very good but you'd have a hard time making the argument that he's the best at his position.

Of course "SAM" wasn't a need... SAM is never that big a "need" for any 4-3 team. Typically in a 4-3, your SAM is a 2 down LB who comes off the field on 3rd down because he isn't any good in coverage. SAM is normally the position your team pulls from the field in the nickle package (We tend to pull our MIKE in favor of Woodyard because Mays sucks in coverage). Mario Haggan could easily fill the SAM spot (and did in the Minnesota game) on most 4-3 defenses.

Miller is COMPLETELY different because he's really not a 4-3 OLB at all... He's a prototypical 3-4 OLB or an undersized (like Doom) 4-3 DE. There's a reason the guy has ONE job on 3rd down - rush the passer, because that's what he's best at. How often did you see him in coverage last year? Almost never. Why? Because he just isn't that type of LB, yet. We're still hoping to develop him into a solid 4-3 OLB who can do it all (who is normally your WILL in a 4-3, BTW) but he still needs work vs the run and in coverage. They new this when they drafted him and that's why they immediately called him the "SAM" LB to minimize his responsibilities. They knew they were going to predominantly use him as a rush LB in a 3-4 look and a DE in a 4-3 look on passing downs and bring him off the edge more often than not. Essentially, they created a position for him so he could best utilize his skillset to get to the QB like the Redskins did for Orakpo his first year when they were still running a 4-3 defense before they switched to the 3-4.

Von was drafted because he was the premier pass rusher in that draft class and they obviously had little faith Ayers would ever be that guy across from Doom. Nobody, I mean NOBODY drafts a SAM LB at #2 overall to play in a 4-3. MIKE and WILL are much more important in that scheme than SAM is. Miller was drafted based on his skillset, not on the position he'd be playing.

TXBRONC
04-13-2012, 09:03 AM
That's what I tried to say to myself last year when they drafted Rahim Moore. "Maybe it'll work out."

Only they just dumped him down the depth chart after one year by signing Mike Adams to come in ahead of him. SO, it looks just like what I thought it would be at the time: a BUSTED pick.

So, the critics were right. They should have taken a DT in the second!

After one year I wouldn't say the the critics were right they eventually be proven right but not after one season. After the draft last Fox said may take couple of season before know if these guys are going to be any good.

NightTerror218
04-13-2012, 12:28 PM
I wonder if it was in the plans for EFX on drafting a DT all along in round 1 or 2 so that they were less productive in FA with DT, they targeted 2 starting quality ones and they signed a back up.