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View Full Version : Vote to re-watch Broncs vs Steelers Playoff win on NFL network



broncobryce
04-07-2012, 02:59 PM
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d828188e7/article/fans-choice-which-2011-playoff-game-do-you-want-to-see?module=HP11_content_stream


They are holding a vote.....guess who's winning? Broncos vs Steelers currently at 43 percent.


Cast your vote so NFL network will re-show the game again.
I have it taped so I've watched it a few times, but for others who may want to DVR it. Now's your chance.

Nomad
04-07-2012, 03:07 PM
NO.....because Tebow was in that game!:balloons:

Medford Bronco
04-07-2012, 04:42 PM
How about to rewatch the 1998 Super Bowl or the Drive. I would rather see those games.

Dapper Dan
04-07-2012, 05:52 PM
How about to rewatch the 1998 Super Bowl or the Drive. I would rather see those games.

Click the link and you'll see:

Fans' choice: Which 2011 playoff game do you want to see?

Neither the 1998 Super Bowl nor "The Drive" was in the 2011 playoffs.

wayninja
04-07-2012, 07:54 PM
I'm excited to see Elway win this game again.

broncobryce
04-07-2012, 11:45 PM
How about to rewatch the 1998 Super Bowl or the Drive. I would rather see those games.

Sorry, they aren't on the list. Send your complaints to NFL network.

broncobryce
04-07-2012, 11:46 PM
NO.....because Tebow was in that game!:balloons:

Yeah, but Elway was the VP!

broncobryce
04-07-2012, 11:47 PM
But honestly, who would want to watch the only Broncos playoff win since 2005? I know some of you were praying for us to lose.

Simple Jaded
04-08-2012, 12:23 AM
That was the last time Eddie Royal played for the Broncos, it's just too painful to watch. So much turmoil, I still can't believe they did Royal like that. I hope your integrity was worth it Mr Ed.......

Shazam!
04-08-2012, 12:44 AM
Got Pitt @ Denver NFL Network replay DVRed.

Got 97 & 98 Super Bowl highlights on DVD and both complete games transferred to DVD from VHS (sent the tapes to JR).

Im good.

wayninja
04-08-2012, 01:10 AM
That was the last time Eddie Royal played for the Broncos, it's just too painful to watch. So much turmoil, I still can't believe they did Royal like that. I hope your integrity was worth it Mr Ed.......

They traded Royal?

Medford Bronco
04-08-2012, 06:44 AM
I just said what I wanted to watch. I did not rip Tebow or anyone. It is my preference.

Good win. I just want to see old school games that are not fresh in my head that is all.

I respect Tebow and wish him well. I am an old school fan that is all.

Simple Jaded
04-08-2012, 11:51 AM
They traded Royal?
No, even worse they let him go for no compensation. He willed a 1-4 team to the playoffs with his force of competitive nature and 8th wonder of the world intangibles and the Broncos just let him walk? He deserved better, shame on you EFX.......

BroncoStud
04-08-2012, 11:55 AM
Tebow played a great game against Pittsburgh. That was such a fun game. I've got it on DVR. It's one of the few times in recent Broncos history we've traded blow after blow with a superior team and won. What a game.

ShaneFalco
04-08-2012, 04:16 PM
so hard for me to watch, i feel like we betrayed our team or something when watching that game. Tebow showed so much promise. :(

at the end to, when the song comes on "TONIGHTS GUNNA BE A GOOD NIGHT" you could almost feel the future of the broncos running thru your veins! then all gone :(

sneakers
04-08-2012, 04:21 PM
so hard for me to watch, i feel like we betrayed our team or something when watching that game. Tebow showed so much promise. :(

at the end to, when the song comes on "TONIGHTS GUNNA BE A GOOD NIGHT" you could almost feel the future of the broncos running thru your veins! then all gone :(

Eh, things in life change, best get used to it. Because there is nothing you can do....unless you want to cheer for the jets now.

sneakers
04-08-2012, 04:22 PM
I already rewatched it a few days after the game (it was rerun on NFL network).

ShaneFalco
04-08-2012, 04:30 PM
ugh i hate the jets, all my family is from New York. ><

MOtorboat
04-08-2012, 05:37 PM
so hard for me to watch, i feel like we betrayed our team or something when watching that game. Tebow showed so much promise. :(

at the end to, when the song comes on "TONIGHTS GUNNA BE A GOOD NIGHT" you could almost feel the future of the broncos running thru your veins! then all gone :(

Oh good grief.

Simple Jaded
04-08-2012, 05:40 PM
How can you betray your team by watching a re-run of your team? It's not like you were watching the Jets.......

ShaneFalco
04-08-2012, 06:43 PM
I dont know. Just was such a great thing to have everyone always doubting our team. Then coming thru and winning like that. I will miss being the underdogs. I will miss the media hating on the broncos, then us stuffing it in their analytical faces!

Broncfan1970
04-08-2012, 07:11 PM
so hard for me to watch, i feel like we betrayed our team or something when watching that game. Tebow showed so much promise. :(

at the end to, when the song comes on "TONIGHTS GUNNA BE A GOOD NIGHT" you could almost feel the future of the broncos running thru your veins! then all gone :( Suggestion rewatch it and then thank DT, for making renowned look so good to you. Then GET REALLY EXCITED TO WATCH MANNING THROWING TO DT!!! There problem solved feel better?????

Broncfan1970
04-08-2012, 09:53 PM
so hard for me to watch, i feel like we betrayed our team or something when watching that game. Tebow showed so much promise. :(

at the end to, when the song comes on "TONIGHTS GUNNA BE A GOOD NIGHT" you could almost feel the future of the broncos running thru your veins! then all gone :( Suggestion rewatch it and then thank DT, for making renowned look so good to you. Then GET REALLY EXCITED TO WATCH MANNING THROWING TO DT!!! There problem solved feel better????? errr.....shoulda read thank DT, for making "Tebow" look so good. LOL and still my smart phone changes Tebow to Renowned WTF???????

Broncfan1970
04-08-2012, 09:54 PM
Weird I thought today it woulda changed it to baby Jesus LOL

ShaneFalco
04-08-2012, 09:59 PM
Royal caught a td 2!

MOtorboat
04-08-2012, 10:04 PM
1353

broncobryce
04-09-2012, 01:12 PM
No, thank the oline for blocking, Mcgahee for acting like he was gonna get a handoff, Elway for standing there and looking cool, hell thank the waterboy.

Simple Jaded
04-09-2012, 06:10 PM
No, thank Tebow for the OL blocking, thank Tebow for McGahee acting like he was getting the handoff, thank Tebow for Elway looking cool. God Bless the waterboy.......

Broncfan1970
04-09-2012, 08:31 PM
no, thank tebow for the ol blocking, thank tebow for mcgahee acting like he was getting the handoff, thank tebow for elway looking cool. God bless the waterboy....... amen!!!!!!!god bless the water boy, may he beat out sanchez!!!!!

ShaneFalco
04-09-2012, 11:22 PM
WATERBOY!! h20!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
UDJiAbC9GLY

Joel
04-11-2012, 02:08 PM
Well, that did not take long. I would be thrilled to see the game again here, if I could, and still do not understand how people can condemn Tebow for breaking one Broncos and another NFL playoff record.

The one good thing about paying $20 million/year for a QB who'll be retired in two seasons is no one will dare trying to scapegoat him for subpar play from guards who'll be in their third year as starters, or receivers supposedly dropping balls dropped right into their hands (but at a bad angle, as if receivers haven't been practicing catching wobbly balls since Don Hutsons day.

The one good thing about trading Tebow to the Jets (and if rumors Elway let him choose the team are true I greatly overestimated Tebows intellect) is their team and coaching staff are such a total disaster we won't be kicking ourselves two years later like we were with Cutler. If he actually manages to win games playing for a Ryan and Schottenheimer, well, hopefully they'll be stupid enough to trade him to a decent team before he's past his prime. He's sure to get a chance with no better competition than Sanchez, and that team has more onfield talent, but their management will always doom the players.

Ravage!!!
04-11-2012, 02:24 PM
Pretty certain they aren't rumors, and I believe Tebow acknowledged that fact after first trying to say it was out of his hands.

Simple Jaded
04-11-2012, 09:12 PM
The one good thing about paying $20 million/year for a QB who'll be retired in two seasons is we won't have to watch the worst passer in the NFL get voted to the ProBowl while the guards and WR's take it on the chin for a thoroughly inept passing game. All this drama over a QB that could barely complete a third of the route tree from the pocket.......

Dapper Dan
04-11-2012, 09:26 PM
The one good thing about paying $20 million/year for a QB who'll be retired in two seasons is we won't have to watch the worst passer in the NFL get voted to the ProBowl while the guards and WR's take it on the chin for a thoroughly inept passing game. All this drama over a QB that could barely complete a third of the route tree from the pocket.......

*Downvote*

Simple Jaded
04-11-2012, 11:44 PM
*Downvote*:drama:.......

Simple Jaded
04-15-2012, 07:05 AM
Steelers vs Broncos replay just started, don't miss it.

Am I the only one who thought David Bruton was better than Quinton Carter?.......

Simple Jaded
04-15-2012, 07:11 AM
Tebow hung Decker out to dry, forgot about that.......

Broncfan1970
04-15-2012, 07:48 AM
Tebow hung Decker out to dry, forgot about that....... LOL Glad someone else saw that, and still some people wonder why our recievers aren't sad about his departure...

Joel
04-17-2012, 10:09 PM
The one good thing about paying $20 million/year for a QB who'll be retired in two seasons is we won't have to watch the worst passer in the NFL get voted to the ProBowl while the guards and WR's take it on the chin for a thoroughly inept passing game. All this drama over a QB that could barely complete a third of the route tree from the pocket.......
Again, this debate should soon be settled once and for all. Our line didn't start sucking when Orton or Tebow took over—they just didn't STOP sucking, and there's no reason to expect they will for Manning. "Who cares Orton is so accurate; blitzes make him faint111" "Who cares about Tebows mobility, he's inaccurate111" Beadles and Walton are out of excuses (with his rookie season behind him, Franklin probably is, too.)

If all you got from the Steelers game that shattered an NFL playoff record is "Tebow hung Decker out to dry" (because Tebow called that play, and Decker's the first WR in history who had to go over the middle to catch a pass) there's not much to discuss. Don't try to tell me it was all Thomas (though he had a tremendous game) because Royal caught the TD pass on that drive that was dropped over the DBs head and right into his hands in the end zone. Thomas certainly didn't get us to the playoffs, because he didn't show up until SOMEONE gave him a pep talk after he dropped a TD put right in his hands, in stride, against the Bears.

The point of all that is not that Tebow's so awesome; that's spilt milk at this stage. The point is that our offense had and still has a lot of other problems, and the emergence of Thomas coupled with Dreesens signing means most of them are at G and backups for McGahee. Manning can't fix any of that, and until it IS fixed neither he nor anyone will have much success running our offense.

Simple Jaded
04-18-2012, 12:37 AM
Again, this debate should soon be settled once and for all. Our line didn't start sucking when Orton or Tebow took over—they just didn't STOP sucking, and there's no reason to expect they will for Manning. "Who cares Orton is so accurate; blitzes make him faint111" "Who cares about Tebows mobility, he's inaccurate111" Beadles and Walton are out of excuses (with his rookie season behind him, Franklin probably is, too.)

If all you got from the Steelers game that shattered an NFL playoff record is "Tebow hung Decker out to dry" (because Tebow called that play, and Decker's the first WR in history who had to go over the middle to catch a pass) there's not much to discuss. Don't try to tell me it was all Thomas (though he had a tremendous game) because Royal caught the TD pass on that drive that was dropped over the DBs head and right into his hands in the end zone. Thomas certainly didn't get us to the playoffs, because he didn't show up until SOMEONE gave him a pep talk after he dropped a TD put right in his hands, in stride, against the Bears.

The point of all that is not that Tebow's so awesome; that's spilt milk at this stage. The point is that our offense had and still has a lot of other problems, and the emergence of Thomas coupled with Dreesens signing means most of them are at G and backups for McGahee. Manning can't fix any of that, and until it IS fixed neither he nor anyone will have much success running our offense.
So Thomas can't show up late and get any credit for the Broncos going to the playoffs but Tebow can show up for about 2:00 minutes a game (at best) and take all the credit? You're right about one thing, Joel, there is not much for us to discuss. I think you're full blown, bat shit crazy.

When the Broncos had the worst passer in the league you were so comcerned about the direction that the team is headed and the team around him that you found time to try to invent a QB rating to make your boy look less pathetic, but when the Broncos make an absolutely massive upgrade at the most important position on the field you're nothing but doom and gloom. With Tebow the future is bright but now that he's gone the Broncos are so bad that even one of the best passer on the planet can't fix it. Your biggest concern was how the Broncos should make Tebow's lifer easier.

As for the playoffs, apparently it wasn't a good team that made the playoffs it was all about "SOMEONE" and his pep talks and absolutely pathetic QB skills, the Broncos should just cancel the ****in season. Better yet, maybe the Broncos could trade Manning to the Jets for "SOMEONE" who can give pep talks. The Broncos could just make a contribution to his charity to smooth things over.

Hopefully soon the Broncos will come to their senses and bring Timmy home.

Look, Noel, it's no mystery that the Broncos had holes to fill, and none bigger than the QB position. I never said they didn't have issues to address, especially Beadles and Walton. I couldn't agree more. But the Broncos were always going to make the moves they see fit to improve their team and that's not going to change now that they have a legitimate NFL QB. The Broncos just made progress by deciding to build around a future HoFer instead of the worst passer in the league, wtf you have against that is the real mystery. You actually kinda act like the Broncos just traded a future HoFer for Tim F'n Tebow instead of the other way around."Spilled milk" my ass.

Edit:

Btw, Joel, Tebow hung Decker out to dry because the pass was late, high and over the middle. He led Decker right into the most borderline dirty hitter in the league today. Anybody that claims to know as much about football as you knows that that is egregious, even for a QB with a high school developmental level.......

Npba900
04-18-2012, 09:07 AM
The one good thing about paying $20 million/year for a QB who'll be retired in two seasons is we won't have to watch the worst passer in the NFL get voted to the ProBowl while the guards and WR's take it on the chin for a thoroughly inept passing game. All this drama over a QB that could barely complete a third of the route tree from the pocket.......

I'm just glad that Tebow can now take his circus to the NY Jets. Elway and Fox are probably sleeping a lot better now.

ShaneFalco
04-18-2012, 06:47 PM
Well, that did not take long. I would be thrilled to see the game again here, if I could, and still do not understand how people can condemn Tebow for breaking one Broncos and another NFL playoff record.

The one good thing about paying $20 million/year for a QB who'll be retired in two seasons is no one will dare trying to scapegoat him for subpar play from guards who'll be in their third year as starters, or receivers supposedly dropping balls dropped right into their hands (but at a bad angle, as if receivers haven't been practicing catching wobbly balls since Don Hutsons day.

The one good thing about trading Tebow to the Jets (and if rumors Elway let him choose the team are true I greatly overestimated Tebows intellect) is their team and coaching staff are such a total disaster we won't be kicking ourselves two years later like we were with Cutler. If he actually manages to win games playing for a Ryan and Schottenheimer, well, hopefully they'll be stupid enough to trade him to a decent team before he's past his prime. He's sure to get a chance with no better competition than Sanchez, and that team has more onfield talent, but their management will always doom the players.its not schottenheimer in ny anymore. I believe Todd Haley and Tony Sparano are now the coordinators.

Medford Bronco
04-18-2012, 08:14 PM
its not schottenheimer in ny anymore. I believe Todd Haley and Tony Sparano are now the coordinators.

Wow Todd Haley and Ryan. That is like which ego is bigger, the size of Ryans the Atlantic Ocean or Haleys the size of the Pacific Ocean.

That team is a disaster waiting to happen.

broncobryce
04-18-2012, 10:26 PM
Now it's Tebow's fault Harrison went low on Decker? Too funny. I hope you remember this when Manning throws a ball and the WR gets hit. Hope you blame him for that too.

Joel
04-19-2012, 04:58 AM
its not schottenheimer in ny anymore. I believe Todd Haley and Tony Sparano are now the coordinators.
I stand corrected, but like Med said, not much of an improvement. Again, if Tebow was given his choice of trade offers and picked that one, it says nothing encouraging about his football intellect, 'cos he probably screwed any chance of ever developing into a pro QB. Wildcats and read options are occasionally entertaining, but are not pro offenses.


So Thomas can't show up late and get any credit for the Broncos going to the playoffs but Tebow can show up for about 2:00 minutes a game (at best) and take all the credit? You're right about one thing, Joel, there is not much for us to discuss. I think you're full blown, bat shit crazy.
Thomas and Tebow both get full credit for everything they did to reach the playoffs and win games there (at least from ME.... ;)) That cuts both ways though; if a couple good games around Christmas is good enough for a #1 WR (which suggests our receiving corps is more of a corpse,) good second halfs/fourth quarters since three weeks before Halloween is good enough for a starting QB; if not, not.


When the Broncos had the worst passer in the league you were so comcerned about the direction that the team is headed and the team around him that you found time to try to invent a QB rating to make your boy look less pathetic, but when the Broncos make an absolutely massive upgrade at the most important position on the field you're nothing but doom and gloom. With Tebow the future is bright but now that he's gone the Broncos are so bad that even one of the best passer on the planet can't fix it. Your biggest concern was how the Broncos should make Tebow's lifer easier.
My QB rating system dates from around 2005, as stated in that thread; if I had the prescience to design it as a justification for Tebow as Denvers QB I'd spend my time buying stocks and betting on football games instead of discussing them (though I'm not sure anyone will take a bet on the 2019 Super Bowl yet.)

I have every reason in the world to despise Tebow, and did until around Thanksgiving. I loathe college football, and two big reasons why are the option and the NCAAs adoration of teams from the SEC and FL (in the Gators case, both, which explains a lot.) From the moment McDumbass pulled his underhanded two-faced screwjob on Cutler and drafted Tebow I was counting the seconds until we could be rid of both. At the end of last September I took a fair amount of heat here for saying our only faint hope of salvaging the season was replacing Orton with QUINN, who at least offered the small hope of a decent QB Tebow did not. Tebow sold me on himself by repeatedly coming through in the clutch despite having few assets with which to do it.

Ultimately, this isn't about Tebow, especially since he's no longer on the team: It's about the horde of other large problems that ARE still on the team.

As for the playoffs, apparently it wasn't a good team that made the playoffs it was all about "SOMEONE" and his pep talks and absolutely pathetic QB skills, the Broncos should just cancel the ****in season. Better yet, maybe the Broncos could trade Manning to the Jets for "SOMEONE" who can give pep talks. The Broncos could just make a contribution to his charity to smooth things over.

Hopefully soon the Broncos will come to their senses and bring Timmy home.
A 4-12 team that started the season 1-4 went 7-4 with a new QB, then won a playoff game. Unless the QB (the only major change) was A big reason, no starting QB is worth $20 million/year. It wasn't a good team, and while making the playoffs wasn't ALL about the QB, much of it was; we still went home in the Divisional round, so $20 million would be better spent on the many things we needed rather than a QB we didn't.


Look, Noel, it's no mystery that the Broncos had holes to fill, and none bigger than the QB position. I never said they didn't have issues to address, especially Beadles and Walton. I couldn't agree more. But the Broncos were always going to make the moves they see fit to improve their team and that's not going to change now that they have a legitimate NFL QB. The Broncos just made progress by deciding to build around a future HoFer instead of the worst passer in the league, wtf you have against that is the real mystery. You actually kinda act like the Broncos just traded a future HoFer for Tim F'n Tebow instead of the other way around."Spilled milk" my ass.
Building around a 24 year old project has some potential; building around a beat up 36 year old player means another complete rebuild when he retires in two years (assuming our awful guards can keep a QB who's never been mobile intact that long.) If I actually HAD devised a QB rating to make last years starting Broncos QB look good, Manning would make sense—because it would be 2006 and he'd be 30, with unfuzed vertebræ. It's not and he's not. There's no "future" there, only instant gratification.

I hope we have the cash and draft picks to fill enough of our many holes to make that viable before our QB limps off into the sunset, leaving us with Caleb Hanie instead of Tebow, but frankly doubt it.


Edit:

Btw, Joel, Tebow hung Decker out to dry because the pass was late, high and over the middle. He led Decker right into the most borderline dirty hitter in the league today. Anybody that claims to know as much about football as you knows that that is egregious, even for a QB with a high school developmental level.......
He was "NFL open." :tongue: Any other time or place on that play that pass is probably a pick (if memory serves, another Steeler hit Decker high about the same time Harrison hit him low.) I get what you're saying; I still nurse a grudge against Plummer because I think Rod Smiths career prematurely and painfully ended thanks to jumping and diving for flutterballs over the middle into LBs waiting to level him. Yet part of the problem is the same now as then: With no one else but Ashley Lelie, then Javon Walker, Rod naturally drew a crowd on third down. That pass, like most Tebow threw against Pitt, was right where and when it had to be.

Speaking of grudges, when a guy sets a new playoff PASSING record only to draw complaints about a single incomplete pass, that strongly suggests a grudge. Meanwhile, Tebow's gone, but our many other large problems remain, and spending $20 million/year on a QB to "build around" for his last couple playing years years won't fix them. Most likely, it means two more years of being a bubble-playoff team with mediocre .500 draft picks before our HoFer retires and leaves us back where we started four years earlier: 4-12.

I don't claim to be an authority on football, but learned around age 10 that a dog team convinced a star QB will singlehandedly make them champions is so deep in denial about its dearth of talent that it will continue ignoring that problem for the foreseeable future. People don't like admitting errors (hence I didn't reverse my position on Tebow until Thanksgiving,) especially costly ones, but at some point we must decide whether we're more committed to championships or a preferred narrative. As Keynes put it, "When the facts change, I change my mind; what do you do, sir?"

Tebow is gone, and probably done since he's stuck with the Jets, "offensive" in only negative senses. OUR problems, however, remain, and renting a HoFer for a couple years won't fix them.

Simple Jaded
04-19-2012, 12:52 PM
The Broncos intend on contending for SB's now, Joel, not later. Getting Manning shows me that they're dead serious.......

Simple Jaded
04-19-2012, 12:58 PM
Now it's Tebow's fault Harrison went low on Decker? Too funny. I hope you remember this when Manning throws a ball and the WR gets hit. Hope you blame him for that too.
No, it's Goodell's fault Harrison went low on Decker. Harrison played that the way the league allows. It's not Harrison's fault the pass was late, high and over the middle.

And when Manning hangs a player put to dry you can count on me calling him out. I don't pull punches because I
like a player.......

Simple Jaded
04-19-2012, 01:00 PM
its not schottenheimer in ny anymore. I believe Todd Haley and Tony Sparano are now the coordinators.

Todd Haley is in Pittsburgh.

Btw, I like how the Jets are all of a sudden a bad place for Tebow to land. They were coming of two straight years in the AFC Championship game just this time last year. Already with the excuses, but if Tebow ends up starting and the Jets go deep he's a ****ing God.......

Joel
04-19-2012, 09:05 PM
The Broncos intend on contending for SB's now, Joel, not later. Getting Manning shows me that they're dead serious.......
It tells me they're delusional, because we can't contend for a Super Bowl now, and it's highly unlikely that will change before Manning retires.

It also tells me that what THEY told me about building through the draft was either a lot of hot air or the front office is very schizoid, signing the Leagues youngest team last year, then a runner on the downside of his career and now a passer draining the last dregs of his. I support signing key quality free agents where they can help, but adding future Hall of Famers in their late thirties is how we went through two of the best free safeties of the past decade in just a few years, and had to sign yet a third this offseason. Gimme guys in their late twenties, not their late thirties; those are proven stars around whom we can build a team for the future.

That future is the proper focus for a 4-12 team, not trying to win one of the next two Super Bowls, which is a pipe dream. Manning makes it an expensive one that restricts our ability to sign those late-twenties UFA Pro Bowlers. It might have made sense as a bridge and a lure if we hadn't shed every single one of last years QBs in the process, but a rickety Manning behind a porous line with Hanie backing him strikes me as a disaster waiting to happen. Ask the Colts what happens to a team with no talent except Manning.

Speaking of which, watching the Jets beat them in the 2010 playoffs told me:

1) The Colts were very lucky the AFC South sucked throughout the last decade (but I already knew that,) 2) LaDainian Tomlinson is a has been running back and 3) Mark Sanchez is a never will be QB.

I backed the Jets then because I couldn't stand any of the other AFC teams, but they were a bad team then and when they got Tebowed last season. Against Indy, Sanchez made Tebow look like he had a "laser, rocket arm," and probably will again this year. In the sense that the bar is set VERY low in NY, it's good for Tebow (which may have been his logic: Go to the team most likely to dump it's starting QB,) and he at least has a receiver or two to help, but in the sense that no one up there knows a thing about offense (and everyone is nuts,) he's screwed. Oh, well; hopefully he invested wisely.

Incidentally, on the subject of Goodell and Harrison: If the League focused less on where and when defenders made contact and more on how and why, the Saints wouldn't be mired in scandal over a team policy of trying to end guys seasons and careers with perfectly legal hits. The NFLs worst defense also wouldn't have been in the Super Bowl, and its second worst wouldn't have gone 15-1, because we wouldn't have a league predicated on the idea great offense makes defense unnecessary (funny how getting a D to complement their high octane offense took Houston from perennial whipping boy to title contender in just a season.)

We didn't need a bunch of new rules and penalties, only to enforce those we already had (spearing's been illegal for decades; why make new penalties for leading with the helmet?) Goodell's turned the NFL into arena football on the pretext of making it safer, without actually making it any safer. "Any team on any given Sunday" no longer has as much to do with parity as with the fact teams put the ball up for grabs every down knowing there's a 50/50 chance the right guy comes down with it (which explain Tebow Time.) Denver and KC can beat GB and Pitt because when we handcuff skill until luck supplants it, that happens.

If we're going to have new safety rules, it'd be nice if they went after guys for deliberately trying to injure opponents rather than just playing football. Given how many people always insist intentionally sidelining opponents is "part of the game," it's past time that distinction was made (reminiscent of when TR threatend to ban football after it killed over a dozen college players in one year; that resulted in legalizing the forward pass, but I don't think we need anything so radical now.) It's bad enough Harrison and his ilk petulantly and publicly declare they're going low on receivers KNOWING it increases the risk of severe injury, just to comply with the letter but not spirit of new rules. Yet what the Saints (though almost certainly not JUST the Saints) institutionalized as team culture shows Goodells whole approach is wrong. It may boost ratings and routinely shatter once untouchable offensive records, but reduces the game to offense vs. offense and trivializes all records, while the sport only gets more dangerous.

Any hit can cause severe injury, but there's a difference between hitting hard and actively SEEKING to injure people, and the latter should be the focus, IMHO. Goodell's trying to rebuild a wrecked transmission by adding fuel injection; it's explosive, but didn't do a thing about the real problem, and indirectly made it worse. Hopefully the owners step in soon, before defense and running (which enjoys none of the kid glove treatment passing does) become more of a lost art than they already are. These days, FOUR things can happen when you pass, and a defensive penalty is the most likely one.

MOtorboat
04-19-2012, 09:22 PM
Tebow was terrible.

They had to do something. Get the hell over it.

FFS

Ravage!!!
04-19-2012, 11:59 PM
Tebow was NOT building "through the draft." Tebow was setting us back "through the draft." Not to mention, I still don't understand that fans feel as though THEY were "lied to" if the FO does something that goes agaisnt what they believe "they" were told before. Seriously?

Simple Jaded
04-20-2012, 12:29 AM
How the **** long does it take to build a contender? Especially with an elite QB? It's not like they're an expansion team, F'n A dude, they were in the gawd damn playoffs last year with a garbage passing game. Apparently the only acceptable way to build through the draft is to build around Tim Tebow through the draft. Talk about delusional.......

Simple Jaded
04-20-2012, 12:36 AM
Btw, which late-20's free agent pro bowlers were you expecting them to sign? Nobody wanted to sign with Denver before they signed Manning, it was an impossible sell. Offensive free agents wanted no part of this team for obvious reason (s). And how do you sell defensive players on that team? "Hey, Mario Williams, come to Denver and help the defense carry the entire weight of the team. It's kinda hard to win a game when the opponents QB has more TD passes than our QB has completions"?

Yeah, right.......

OrangeFanatic
04-20-2012, 02:43 AM
This thread is the perfect example of how the same 4 posters are not jumping on anything positive Tebow related.

BTW, Jaded Learn2multiquote.

Simple Jaded
04-20-2012, 02:52 AM
This thread is the perfect example of how the same 4 posters are not jumping on anything positive Tebow related.

BTW, Jaded Learn2multiquote.
If you don't want to discuss the subject don't put yourself out there, it's that simple.......

Joel
04-20-2012, 09:26 AM
Tebow was terrible.

They had to do something. Get the hell over it.
The TEAM is/was terrible, and still needs to do something; they just have $20 million less to do it the next couple years. 4-12 and 1-4 without Tebow; 7-4 and a playoff win with. Gimme a dozen guys that "terrible."


Tebow was NOT building "through the draft." Tebow was setting us back "through the draft." Not to mention, I still don't understand that fans feel as though THEY were "lied to" if the FO does something that goes agaisnt what they believe "they" were told before. Seriously?
When someone says one thing then does the opposite, that usually indicates a lie; pretty straightforward. Ask Jay Cutler how many elite athletes want to work for someone who'll lie to their face about their future. Elway was supposed to repair our credibility gap (on the other hand, if I had a nickel for every executive who reneged on promises to change his predecessors failed policies.... :tsk:)


How the **** long does it take to build a contender? Especially with an elite QB? It's not like they're an expansion team, F'n A dude, they were in the gawd damn playoffs last year with a garbage passing game. Apparently the only acceptable way to build through the draft is to build around Tim Tebow through the draft. Talk about delusional.......
They weren't in the playoffs DESPITE Tebow; that disconnect is how a thread about a game where he set a playoff record devolved into another discussion of how awful he is.

How long does it take to build a contender? Want the ugly truth?

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal/1989.htm
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal/1990.htm
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal/1991.htm
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal/1992.htm

About that long, assuming you get a couple number one overall picks and find a team stupid enough to trade half their starters and draft picks for one star player. If we do that, we can be back in the playoffs by the time Manning is 39 and win him another Super Bowl when he's 40. Don't hold your breath. More likely, we're 6-10 or 7-9 next year and people talk about a "work in progress" as if our starting QB has time for that.

I'm not saying they had to build around Tebow, but that we had and have bigger problems than a talented but raw project QB, which we should have addressed, rather than spending $20 million/year for a QB living on borrowed time and sending our only alternative packing. Free agents and draft picks who solved those many other problems would've made Tebow less of an issue, and if he didn't work out we'd still have a solid core team for the long term, so swapping him for a legit QB then WOULD have made us instant contenders. Because we'd have a team rather than three or four stars surrounded by scrubs.


Btw, which late-20's free agent pro bowlers were you expecting them to sign? Nobody wanted to sign with Denver before they signed Manning, it was an impossible sell. Offensive free agents wanted no part of this team for obvious reason (s). And how do you sell defensive players on that team? "Hey, Mario Williams, come to Denver and help the defense carry the entire weight of the team. It's kinda hard to win a game when the opponents QB has more TD passes than our QB has completions"?

Yeah, right.......
Sorry, I still don't buy the "no one wants to play with Tebow" argument; it rests on the belief he is and will always be hopelessly devoid of any ability, with which I also disagree. Not to mention the fact $20 million/year will convince Hall of Fame players to sign with 4-12 teams trying to dump the player most (but NOT SOLELY) responsible for their last playoff trip.


If you don't want to discuss the subject don't put yourself out there, it's that simple.......
If memory serves, I entered this thread noting with disappointment that it didn't take long for a discussion of a glorious and impossible Broncos playoff win to devolve into bashing a player no longer on the roster.

MOtorboat
04-20-2012, 09:30 AM
Tebow wasn't the only player on the team.

And I don't know if you've heard or not, but Denver signed this guy named Peyton Manning. I guess he's pretty good, but I don't really have anything to confirm that with.

:rolleyes:

Northman
04-20-2012, 09:34 AM
Tebow wasn't the only player on the team.

And I don't know if you've heard or not, but Denver signed this guy named Peyton Manning. I guess he's pretty good, but I don't really have anything to confirm that with.

:rolleyes:


I guess Joel will hate watching the Broncos this year. Too bad, we are in for a fantastic season.

MOtorboat
04-20-2012, 09:40 AM
I guess Joel will hate watching the Broncos this year. Too bad, we are in for a fantastic season.

I just get sick of people insinuating that this team somehow has no talent.

It's ludicrous. The difference between 1-4 and 4-1 is so miniscule in the NFL.

Von Miller
Champ Bailey
Elvis Dumervil
D.J. Williams
Ryan Clady
Demaryius Thomas

Those are elite NFL talents, and four of them are elite level players. Now we have an elite quarterback. How many teams have five elite players? And two that are on the verge (Thomas if he stays healthy, and D.J. is a lot better than people want to admit)

Northman
04-20-2012, 10:03 AM
I just get sick of people insinuating that this team somehow has no talent.

It's ludicrous. The difference between 1-4 and 4-1 is so miniscule in the NFL.

Von Miller
Champ Bailey
Elvis Dumervil
D.J. Williams
Ryan Clady
Demaryius Thomas

Those are elite NFL talents, and four of them are elite level players. Now we have an elite quarterback. How many teams have five elite players? And two that are on the verge (Thomas if he stays healthy, and D.J. is a lot better than people want to admit)


Well, that is the hilarity of it all. Manning has made a living out of making subpar talent look awesome yet somehow people (well, a couple of people. Most people arent that naive) believe he cant make others around him better. Tebow did the unthinkable by instilling confidence into a 1-4 team and at times let his athleticism inspire them as well. If a very average QB like Tebow can do that how is it a HOF like Manning cant? Just doesnt make any sense whatsoever. But, thats why you have fans of the team and not just one player because thats how delusional one can get. Par for the course though.

Ravage!!!
04-20-2012, 10:12 AM
When someone says one thing then does the opposite, that usually indicates a lie; pretty straightforward. Ask Jay Cutler how many elite athletes want to work for someone who'll lie to their face about their future. Elway was supposed to repair our credibility gap (on the other hand, if I had a nickel for every executive who reneged on promises to change his predecessors failed policies.... :tsk:)
The problem is you actually believe that they are NOT building through the draft purely because they traded away Tim Tebow. How is that even REMOTELY accurate?? Did the Broncos somehow forgo and give away the draft by signing a great QB in Manning??? :confused:

I have NO idea what your Jay Cutler example is related to the Manning/Tebow/Elway discussion, exactly??

You feel lied to because you wanted to believe that Tebow was our future. The funny thing is, if you have been paying attention at all, Elway has been straight forward in acknowledging that this is a PASSING league. This team is still "building through the draft".... even by trading away Tim Tebow (and imo, ESPECIALLY by trading away Tebow). The FO doesn't owe any of us explanations as to their decisions, reasons behind it, or when they change their approach because a Peyton Manning becomes available. Simply because they made a decision that doesn't agree with your wants, doesn't make them liars.



They weren't in the playoffs DESPITE Tebow;
Actually, I agree with whomever said this. Tebow was flat out BAD for 3.5 quarters of the game. Getting a win when you play that awful from the QB position, is luck. We were VERY lucky. Onside kicks recovered, fumbles in overtime, 59 yrd field goals, and opposing RBs running out of bounds (only to then fumble again). We got into the playoffs DESPITE having terrible QB play.

Northman
04-20-2012, 10:17 AM
There was only one thing that was going to put Tebow on the bench or get him traded after the 2011 season. And that was Peyton Manning hitting the market. Elway and company didnt lie to Tebow as they had planned on going with him full throttle for 2012. But the minute there was a conclusive upgrade with one of the best QB's in the game today that changed it. Unfortuante for Teebs but thats how football works. Denver wasnt the only team trying to pursue Manning as all of the contenders saw Manning as an upgrade. If Tebow was really "worth" being a starter than he would be starting for said team. He may get his chance in NY but highly doubtful.

Jsteve01
04-20-2012, 10:36 AM
I don't think Joel is nearly as angry about moving Tebow as he is about signing Manning if that makes sense. He's concerned about investing 90 million dollars in a 36 year old qb who as many have stated isn't even as healthy as Favre was when he went to the Jets. Don't get me wrong I really like Manning and have high hopes for this team with him on it and I know he's a far better qb than Tebow at this point. I do on the other hand understand the sentiments that there are glaring needs on the interior of the o line and possible RT. There are also glaring needs on the interior of the defensive line and the back 7. And if for some reason Manning doesn't work out, we've gone all in and neglected other needs. That's a concern.

Simple Jaded
04-20-2012, 07:49 PM
I don't think Joel is nearly as angry about moving Tebow as he is about signing Manning if that makes sense. He's concerned about investing 90 million dollars in a 36 year old qb who as many have stated isn't even as healthy as Favre was when he went to the Jets. Don't get me wrong I really like Manning and have high hopes for this team with him on it and I know he's a far better qb than Tebow at this point. I do on the other hand understand the sentiments that there are glaring needs on the interior of the o line and possible RT. There are also glaring needs on the interior of the defensive line and the back 7. And if for some reason Manning doesn't work out, we've gone all in and neglected other needs. That's a concern.

The obvious point is the Broncos were either content with those positions or were going to address those positions regardless of who is at QB. The Broncos made a massive upgrade at the QB position in addition to the moves they were already planning on making.

Upgrading the QB is part of the process, the fact that it turned out to be Peyton Manning a bonus, in the words of Bill Parcells "that's a good thing, that's not a bad thing". The fact that people are upset that the Broncos signed Manning is just absurd. Absolutely, totally and completely absurd. It's not like Denver is gonna stop trying to improve, their goal is to build towards the ultimate goal. Why wouldn't every single Broncos fan want them to do it with Manning instead of just about any QB on the planet? Even if they don't win a SB with Manning it was a no-brainer, common sense move.

I keep going back to when some of us had the nerve to suggest that losing and getting a franchise QB in the draft would be the best thing for the Broncos, we were called losers because you play to win now. Now that Denver has a legitimate franchise QB and playing to win now it's the worst idea to some. This clearly isn't about signing a 36 year old, it's about Tim Tebow.......

Simple Jaded
04-20-2012, 08:04 PM
Joel the fact that you think Tebow is "the player most (but NOT SOLELY) responsible for their last playoff trip" shows how delusional you are, the Broncos offense was pathetic, the only thing worth a shit was the running game. There are 2/3 of the route tree that is completely taken out of the playbook because of the lack of ability of the QB.......

Joel
05-13-2012, 07:27 PM
I guess Joel will hate watching the Broncos this year. Too bad, we are in for a fantastic season.
If the second part of that statement is true, the first is not; otherwise, yeah, I expect watching this season to be painful. Of course, I expected the same last year and was very pleasantly surprised; apparently, however, many other fans DID find our first playoff appearance (and win) since 2005 painful. No accounting for taste, I suppose; if winning arguments were more important to me than winning games I'd have kept deriding Tebow along with everyone else. Since it's not, and since he went 7-4 and won a playoff game, I was forced to change my tune, not just publicly, but actually.

Doesn't matter now though; we don't have him and do have Manning, so we've got (maybe) two years to win a Super Bowl before we need a new starting QB.


I just get sick of people insinuating that this team somehow has no talent.

It's ludicrous. The difference between 1-4 and 4-1 is so miniscule in the NFL.
Apparently the difference between 1-4 and 7-4 is so minuscule it's only worth a 4th and 6th round draft pick; I wish I could believe that.


Von Miller
Promising, but when we remove all the hype we have a guy who won DROY based on amazing blitzing at a position that demands run stopping and pass coverage. He's still hit and miss (literally) with the former, but if he improves there and develops some coverage ability he'll have everything we need in a Pro Bowl MLB. In line with the other thread, whether that's advantageous depends on whether one thinks a Pro Bowl MLB more valuable than a Pro Bowl SLB, which shouldn't even be a question in a 4-3. Meanwhile, Miller is, for now, a one trick pony (which people once said about Doom, so no biggy.)


Champ Bailey
A first ballot HoFer, but visibly slowing; much as with Manning, his window of opportunity is "immediately!"


Elvis Dumervil
Can't say enough good about Doom; the only liability he ever had was size, which he increased impressively without losing a step of speed. Not sure he's what one should expect of a #2 overall pick though, and Miller must improve dramatically against the run to even reach that level.


D.J. Williams
Exceptional; he, Champ and our new CBs almost make a safety needless (fortunately:) We can man-cover teams unless they send everyone deep. Without DJ/Woodyard at WLB, Mays would be disaster at MLB.


Ryan Clady
I hope he was only hurt all last year, and is healthy now, because he looked NOTHING like a guy who's been to two Pro Bowls. I haven't seen a Broncos tackle called for holding that much since George Foster, and if guys are routinely blowing by our LT next year it will be far more painful for Manning than for any of us. I am optimistic he can completely bounced back though.


Demaryius Thomas
Made a believer of me after his post-Bears gut check, but I'm probably not the only one; he'll be double covered often. That and Manning could mean a VERY good season for people named "Joel;" here's hoping.


Those are elite NFL talents, and four of them are elite level players. Now we have an elite quarterback. How many teams have five elite players? And two that are on the verge (Thomas if he stays healthy, and D.J. is a lot better than people want to admit)
Yes, we have five starters worth mentioning, though Thomas and Clady wouldn't have been starting for most teams last year (and WE benched Miller for a few games at the end of the year, though he was playing in a cast by that point.) That would be a truly dominant SIX-MAN football team; unfortunately, the NFL fields eleven.

We do have SOME talent (particularly after this off season) but most is on defense, and we have far MORE holes, on both sides of the ball. Spending $20 million/year on a 35 year old beat up HoF QB, with no backup worthy of the name, doesn't fill those many holes, and does greatly restrict our ability to do so. I wouldn't mind so much if we'd kept Tebow as a backup, because we wouldn't KNOW we'll need another starting QB in two years (or drafting a QB of debatable worth this year. ;)) Yet we did, and now we're naked at QB if anything happens to Manning, as well as when he retires in a couple years.


The problem is you actually believe that they are NOT building through the draft purely because they traded away Tim Tebow. How is that even REMOTELY accurate?? Did the Broncos somehow forgo and give away the draft by signing a great QB in Manning??? :confused:
Not technically, but sinking 15% of our cap into a 35 year old HoFer on his last legs is not "building through the draft." I guess, in a sense, it commits us to building through the draft elsewhere, because it means we have FAR less money available for free agents the next couple years. Dumping a drafted servicable backup QB under contract for a pretty awful FA, however, is definitely not "building through the draft."


I have NO idea what your Jay Cutler example is related to the Manning/Tebow/Elway discussion, exactly??
Then I'll be more explicit: McDumbass shopped Cutler behind his back and lied to his face when Cutler found out and asked him about it; after multiple media outlets confirmed the actions McDumbass denied, Cutler (justifiably) felt so betrayed and insulted he DEMANDED a trade. Elway ended last season with beaming high-fives for Tebow and public assurances to him and everyone that he was our QB going into this years TC; then he signed Manning, and Tebow was out the door to NY. Y'know what discourages free agent signings even more than the possibility they might not get as many receptions as they want? Making it clear signing with your team is playing Russian roulette with their careers, because your front office will swear on a stack of bibles they'll spend their careers there, only to trade them for pogs the next day.


You feel lied to because you wanted to believe that Tebow was our future. The funny thing is, if you have been paying attention at all, Elway has been straight forward in acknowledging that this is a PASSING league. This team is still "building through the draft".... even by trading away Tim Tebow (and imo, ESPECIALLY by trading away Tebow). The FO doesn't owe any of us explanations as to their decisions, reasons behind it, or when they change their approach because a Peyton Manning becomes available. Simply because they made a decision that doesn't agree with your wants, doesn't make them liars.
I "feel" lied to because the guy Elway publicly stated would be our TC starting QB is a Jet now, which is to say, I "feel" lied to because I WAS. That's the only "straightforward" thing about this whole drama.


Actually, I agree with whomever said this. Tebow was flat out BAD for 3.5 quarters of the game. Getting a win when you play that awful from the QB position, is luck. We were VERY lucky. Onside kicks recovered, fumbles in overtime, 59 yrd field goals, and opposing RBs running out of bounds (only to then fumble again). We got into the playoffs DESPITE having terrible QB play.
We'll have to agree to disagree, I suppose. Dick LeBeau, one of the best defensive minds in history, did exactly what everyone said should be done to beat Tebow: Keep him in the pocket and make him beat you with his arm. All he did was set an NFL playoff record against the leagues best defense (overall AND passing) with a number of VERY pretty passes (the sideline end zone throw over a defender to Royal was probably the best.) Playing “flat out bad” for 90% of a game does not set playoff records.

Tebow was raw as Hell last year, and still is, but if we expect a guy to be flawless after a dozen starts, well, get used to paying $20 million/year for beat up 35 year old HoF QBs, because NO ONE <25 will ever again start for us. We had a lot of luck last year, yes, but luck only provides opportunities; exploiting them requires the good execution that won us a playoff spot, and much (not all) of that was the QB.


I don't think Joel is nearly as angry about moving Tebow as he is about signing Manning if that makes sense. He's concerned about investing 90 million dollars in a 36 year old qb who as many have stated isn't even as healthy as Favre was when he went to the Jets. Don't get me wrong I really like Manning and have high hopes for this team with him on it and I know he's a far better qb than Tebow at this point. I do on the other hand understand the sentiments that there are glaring needs on the interior of the o line and possible RT. There are also glaring needs on the interior of the defensive line and the back 7. And if for some reason Manning doesn't work out, we've gone all in and neglected other needs. That's a concern.
That's a whole lot of it, yes; thinking about Manning behind Walton and Beadles, with no certainty Clady and Kuper will be their old selves or Franklin is ready to be more than a punishing run blocker, frankly horrifies me. Manning could be paralyzed for life (heaven forbid) and Caleb Hanie our starting QB by Halloween, which should frighten all of us more than anything else we'll see then.

We've gone all in and neglected many other glaring needs; that is it exactly. The moves at CB, WR and TE somewhat mitigate that, but the big ones at MLB, DT, FS and the offensive line (easily the biggest given Mannings health and the absence of ANYTHING backing him) remain largely ignored. We picked up what many expect to be a good UT, which would be great if we had a dominant NT to put him beside; instead, it just reminds me of Marcus Thomas all over again.

I wanted to address all that whatever happened at QB (where I still think many of our problems were due to awful pass protection and the absence of any consistent receivers,) and the belief we would start Tebow (ideally with a solid dual threat FA backing him up, so we weren't all in with HIM) gave me confidence we could and would do so. Instead, well, hopefully an old, beat up immobile HoF QB, aging RB and one good WR and TE will be enough despite holes big enough to drive trucks through on our offensive line. I'm not optimistic; it's hard to run OR pass with the defense camped out in the backfield. Even for Peyton.

Our long term success depends on fixing those problems, whatever happens at QB; sinking $20 million/year into Manning and trading away the only plausible backup we had (for a 4th and 6th) severely restricts our ability to apply those remedies. It's like a 3rd graders Madden franchise: "I'm'a get Peyton Manning and Champ Bailey at any price, spend the other 2/3 of my camp on the other 25 starters, and restore the game if anyone gets hurt! :cool:" If life had saved games, that strategy would be viable, but it doesn't and it's not.


The obvious point is the Broncos were either content with those positions or were going to address those positions regardless of who is at QB. The Broncos made a massive upgrade at the QB position in addition to the moves they were already planning on making.
Let's hope so, because we NEED to address those other positions regardless of who is at QB, as I've been saying since at least two months before the season ended. Want a young QB to develop pocket presence? Give him >3 seconds of pass protection (count that out with Mississippis and tell me how realistic it is to expect a QB to "get through his progressions.") Want a QB who uses the whole route tree? Give him receivers who do. Do neither and you can count on any rookie QB "learning" that "NFL open" means throwing at a postage stamp and hoping the right guy catches it, with a "mental clock" that goes off at the snap.


Upgrading the QB is part of the process, the fact that it turned out to be Peyton Manning a bonus, in the words of Bill Parcells "that's a good thing, that's not a bad thing". The fact that people are upset that the Broncos signed Manning is just absurd. Absolutely, totally and completely absurd. It's not like Denver is gonna stop trying to improve, their goal is to build towards the ultimate goal. Why wouldn't every single Broncos fan want them to do it with Manning instead of just about any QB on the planet? Even if they don't win a SB with Manning it was a no-brainer, common sense move.
Five years ago, even two or three, signing Manning would have been a no-brainer. Oddly enough, he wasn't available then; there's a reason the Colts released their HoFer: The fact he'd been on the roster for a dozen years and had FOUR spinal surgeries last year. He missed the ENTIRE season; it was a pretty significant injury. He's still costing us $20 million/year, but what's really absurd is thinking he'll be on ANYONES roster in 2014. Let's say we sign Manning and win both of the next two Super Bowls; know where Peyton Manning will be then? Exactly where John Elway was in 1999 (but with more back problems.) Anyone remember what Elway did then? Anyone think Caleb Hanie is even on the level of Brian Griese?


I keep going back to when some of us had the nerve to suggest that losing and getting a franchise QB in the draft would be the best thing for the Broncos, we were called losers because you play to win now. Now that Denver has a legitimate franchise QB and playing to win now it's the worst idea to some. This clearly isn't about signing a 36 year old, it's about Tim Tebow.......
Actually, one of the better arguments for starting Tebow was that if he exploded on the launch pad we'd be in a great position to win the QB draft lottery and rid of all the people insisting Tebow was a first ballot HoFer. Trouble is, the SOB won games (sometimes I think scuttling their draft dreams is the biggest reason some people despise him.) Back then, I wanted Quinn to replace Orton, not because I expected him to peform, but because I expected Tebow to be a disaster. He forced me to admit he wasn't. Again, the question is whether it's more important to win arguments or games; me, I have no problem being wrong if the team is winning, and if Manning works out I'll eat my words with as much surprised satisfaction as I did with Tebow. I'm just not holding my breath any more now than then.


Joel the fact that you think Tebow is "the player most (but NOT SOLELY) responsible for their last playoff trip" shows how delusional you are, the Broncos offense was pathetic, the only thing worth a shit was the running game. There are 2/3 of the route tree that is completely taken out of the playbook because of the lack of ability of the QB.......
The only two differences between the Broncos who went 1-4 and those who went 7-4 and won a playoff game are: 1) The second team traded its only Pro Bowl WR to the Rams for pogs and 2) started Tim Tebow.

We can debate the whys and wherefores of it all day, but that is the stark reality. People expect Manning to take that team to the Super Bowl because "if they did that well with a QB as bad as Tebow, just imagine what they'll do without him," but we know what they did without him: They won a single game out of FIVE. If Manning makes them three times better that's 9-10 wins instead of 8. For $20 million/year, and not even a guess who's our starter in 2014.

MOtorboat
05-13-2012, 07:43 PM
Tl;dr

And no, we don't have "five starters worth mentioning" we have five starters who are elite talents. And now six.

I don't know why you dislike Miller, but frankly, if you really do dislike him as much as you're leading on, you're an idiot. He's an elite pass rusher, and that means this team has two. And outside of quarterback, that's the most coveted position on the field. To downplay that is, frankly, unintelligent.

Simple Jaded
05-13-2012, 07:43 PM
The problem is you think the season started the second Tim Tebow was named starter. Reality is the Broncos' season started much earlier. It's sophmorish to suggest that it's as simple as "There are only two differences between the Broncos team that went 1-4 and the one that went 7-4 and won a playoff game", that is the epitome of low hanging fruit. Injuries, change in scheme, change in coaching staff, strength of schedule.......there were more factors that went into the improvement of the entire team than just some F'n bullshit fairy tale of inspiration. Hell, the opponents injuries had just as much to do with 7-4 as the leader of worlds worst passing game did.

If you actually expect me to take this seriously you're barking up the wrong tree.

Btw, I can't help but notice that the only 1-4 five game stretch you care about is the only one that suits your agenda. And who ****ing cares who the QB will be in 2014 right now? Especially if they win two SB's with Manning. That's two seasons from now. The Broncos have a similar situation at RB, I bet you're not losing any sleep over Slowshon Moreno when they signed Willis McGahee.

If this is the best argument for keeping Tebow instead of Manning I feel even better about doing the exact opposite.......

Joel
05-13-2012, 10:48 PM
Tl;dr

And no, we don't have "five starters worth mentioning" we have five starters who are elite talents. And now six.
Even if true (in Millers case, a single seasons performance is too litle to call anyone "elite,") it would be 25% of a team, not a whole one. The bottom line there is that if they were so great it made the rest of the team trivial, 1) why does our QB matter and 2) why did they lose four of their first five games when they had the added benefit of a Pro Bowl WR?


I don't know why you dislike Miller, but frankly, if you really do dislike him as much as you're leading on, you're an idiot. He's an elite pass rusher, and that means this team has two. And outside of quarterback, that's the most coveted position on the field. To downplay that is, frankly, unintelligent.
I don't dislike Miller; if I didn't think he could play, I wouldn't keep suggesting him for MLB, the most important position in a 4-3. I think he's very talented but very young and raw (like last seasons starting QB. ;)) He's still somewhat one-dimensional; against the run, he sometimes blows up backs but is other times completely out of position, and is still very much finding his sea legs in pass coverage. Unfortunately, the same applies to Mays, who isn't a rookie I expect to dramatically improve in both areas after a season or two: He's about as good as he'll ever be (i.e. not very.)

There's more to defense, even the front seven, than blitzing. That's why people talk about "getting pressure with the front four" (note: SLB is NOT a defensive line position. :tongue:) Pass rushing is nice, but with nothing else, it's an active liability against the delay draws and screen passes it inevitably prompts. In particular, the SLBs primary duty run stopping at least as well as he blitzes, since teams running to his side do so with an extra blocker. That makes Miller an exceptional pass rusher unreliable at his primary duty, often lost in pass coverage.

I expect both things to change, at which point he'd make an exceptional MLB, and I still think MLB more important than SLB for any 4-3; 3-4s are all about OLBs and NTs, but 4-3s are all about MLBs and DEs.

Thomas has different problems just as critical at his position, so we had three elite talents, one of which was fading and another of which wasn't even adequate last year, probably due to injury (not that the reason matters much in the win column.) Somehow, we still managed to win 7 of our last 11 games and beat the #1 defense in the playoffs, and our rushing was pitiful in that playoff win: We won PASSING.


The problem is you think the season started the second Tim Tebow was named starter. Reality is the Broncos' season started much earlier. It's sophmorish to suggest that it's as simple as "There are only two differences between the Broncos team that went 1-4 and the one that went 7-4 and won a playoff game", that is the epitome of low hanging fruit. Injuries, change in scheme, change in coaching staff, strength of schedule.......there were more factors that went into the improvement of the entire team than just some F'n bullshit fairy tale of inspiration. Hell, the opponents injuries had just as much to do with 7-4 as the leader of worlds worst passing game did.

If you actually expect me to take this seriously you're barking up the wrong tree.
You're right, injuries were important; our secondary was Swiss cheese after Dawkins got hurt, and Miller was a completely different player with his hand in a cast. 7-4 and a win against the #1 passing D anyway (though they were a little banged up for the playoffs, too.) The season didn't start when Tebow took over; only the WINNING did.




Btw, I can't help but notice that the only 1-4 five game stretch you care about is the only one that suits your agenda. And who ****ing cares who the QB will be in 2014 right now? Especially if they win two SB's with Manning. That's two seasons from now. The Broncos have a similar situation at RB, I bet you're not losing any sleep over Slowshon Moreno when they signed Willis McGahee.

If this is the best argument for keeping Tebow instead of Manning I feel even better about doing the exact opposite.......
I take it you prefer to look at the LAST five games, where I've repeatedly stated Tebow looked bad (particularly the rematch against KC, where I blame the loss almost entirely on his timidity.) I'm just comparing all the games Tebow didn't play (1-4) to all the games he did (7-5 plus a playoff win.) The only differences are that we lost Lloyd and gained Tebow, though we did lose Dawkins and much of Miller toward the end of the season (but PASSED our way to a playoff win anyway.)

Yes, our RB is similar, and I am concerned about it, particularly since our line is such utter garbage McGahee (and everyone else) must break two tackles just to reach the line of scrimmage. There's a reason he and Moreno are banged up so much: They get hit a lot more than they should, which is a tribute to McGahees production last year, but he's still >30, still going to get pounded, and we don't have much more behind him than we do Manning (I'm optimistic about Jeremiah Johnson, but Ball is a scrub.) Dropping $20 million/year on a QB who'll be gone in two seasons doesn't do much to solve that problem either.

Well, anyway, I enjoyed the Pittsburgh game, even with the awful record setting QB.

EMB6903
05-13-2012, 11:08 PM
"Miller is a one trick pony"

The most ignorant broncos related comment ive heard in a very long time.

Joel
05-13-2012, 11:14 PM
"Miller is a one trick pony"

The most ignorant broncos related comment ive heard.
He doesn't cover, and his run stopping is inconsistent, though it got better toward the end of the year. He rushes the passer; he does it very well, but that's all he does. It's the same reason people were so reluctant to keep Doom around after his first year or two (we couldn't afford to spend a lot of money on a guy whose only value was on third and long) and the same reason so many people insisted Miller should be DRoY rather than that phenom the '9ers have who only plays third down. Guess which one of the three is getting paid #2 overall pick money and playing every down, whether or not he can run stop or cover.

Miller has loads of talent, and I expect him to improve in both areas, but his skills, at present, are strictly as a pass rusher, at a position demanding run stopping above all, and coverage at least as much as blitzing. Thus, "one trick pony." It's a very nice trick, and he does it very well, but it's the only one he knows, all of which is what that phrase embodies.

EMB6903
05-13-2012, 11:28 PM
He finished behind only DeMarcus Ware and Jason Pierre-Paul in tackles for loss this season, and according to Pro Football Focus, he didn't miss a single tackle.

Wrap your mind around that.

Despite finishing the season with an injured thumb, Von was able to make an impact on the Broncos' defense that helped them win six straight games. Congratulations to him on a fantastic season on and off the field, Miller is a true class act who will be an impact defender for years to come.

http://mobile.milehighreport.com/2012/2/4/2771747/denver-broncos-rookie-linebacker-von-miller-named-ap-defensive-rookie

Miller is very good against the run and hasn't come close to showing he's a liability in coverage. He's just so good at rushing the qb he doesnt get many opportunities on obvious passing situations.

Far from a "one trick pony"

Simple Jaded
05-14-2012, 01:31 AM
You're right, injuries were important; our secondary was Swiss cheese after Dawkins got hurt, and Miller was a completely different player with his hand in a cast. 7-4 and a win against the #1 passing D anyway (though they were a little banged up for the playoffs, too.) The season didn't start when Tebow took over; only the WINNING did.
Nice job of spin, but I think it's far more likely that the fact that Denver was missing their 3 best defensive players in the first 1-4 and were finally getting healthy had more to do with the D's turn around than the leagues worst passing QB. As did the coaching changes, the team getting acclimated to a new system without the benefit of an offseason (funny how that excuse only applies to the perpetual rookie Tim Tebow, btw).

The rest of the team improves and it's a credit to Tebow but the passing game becomes the laughingstock of the league and it's everybody but Tebow, so he gets the credit for something he has absolutely no influence over and gets a pass for what he's directly involved in.

I don't know what it is about Tim Tebow.......




I take it you prefer to look at the LAST five games, where I've repeatedly stated Tebow looked bad (particularly the rematch against KC, where I blame the loss almost entirely on his timidity.) I'm just comparing all the games Tebow didn't play (1-4) to all the games he did (7-5 plus a playoff win.) The only differences are that we lost Lloyd and gained Tebow, though we did lose Dawkins and much of Miller toward the end of the season (but PASSED our way to a playoff win anyway.)

I don't prefer either 1-4 stretch, I just couldn't help but notice the inconsistency. The 1-4 start absolutely defines Tebow's greatness, the 1-4 finish rarely gets mentioned in a post under the name Joel. Same goes with the Pitt/Patriot playoff games, you never fail to mention the game he against Pitt yet rarely mention the POS game Tebow had against NE. The record setting game absolutely defines Tebow's greatness but the dump he took against the leagues worst pass defense goes unmentioned.......



Yes, our RB is similar, and I am concerned about it, particularly since our line is such utter garbage McGahee (and everyone else) must break two tackles just to reach the line of scrimmage. There's a reason he and Moreno are banged up so much: They get hit a lot more than they should, which is a tribute to McGahees production last year, but he's still >30, still going to get pounded, and we don't have much more behind him than we do Manning (I'm optimistic about Jeremiah Johnson, but Ball is a scrub.) Dropping $20 million/year on a QB who'll be gone in two seasons doesn't do much to solve that problem either.

Well, anyway, I enjoyed the Pittsburgh game, even with the awful record setting QB.

And what does keeping the leagues worst passer do to solve the problem at RB?

That's not my point anyway, again I'm getting back to the inconsistency. The Broncos had a wasted #1 at RB and they went out and replaced him with an old, yet clearly more talented, player who has a limited window of opportunity left in the league. The Broncos also had a wasted #1 pick at QB and went out and replaced I'm with an old, yet clearly more talented, player with a limited window of opportunity. Similar situation, entirely different level of concern.

Meanwhile, instead of asking what the McGahee signing means to the QB position you're supposedly more concerned about what the Manning signing means to the RB position. Even though it's infinitely easier to find a RB than a QB. You and l both know that's the least of your worries (it's Tebow and only Tebow), but if that is the case it's ass-backwards.

You are all about inconsistency, there are a lot of players that will be gone in two years yet the only one that you care about is the one that replaced Tim Tebow.......

claymore
05-14-2012, 07:49 AM
Im still baffled by 2 things.

1. People think we were better with Tebow, even though our offense was worse.
2. People think Elway lied.

MOtorboat
05-14-2012, 07:52 AM
Even if true (in Millers case, a single seasons performance is too litle to call anyone "elite,") it would be 25% of a team, not a whole one. The bottom line there is that if they were so great it made the rest of the team trivial, 1) why does our QB matter and 2) why did they lose four of their first five games when they had the added benefit of a Pro Bowl WR?


I don't dislike Miller; if I didn't think he could play, I wouldn't keep suggesting him for MLB, the most important position in a 4-3. I think he's very talented but very young and raw (like last seasons starting QB. ;)) He's still somewhat one-dimensional; against the run, he sometimes blows up backs but is other times completely out of position, and is still very much finding his sea legs in pass coverage. Unfortunately, the same applies to Mays, who isn't a rookie I expect to dramatically improve in both areas after a season or two: He's about as good as he'll ever be (i.e. not very.)

There's more to defense, even the front seven, than blitzing. That's why people talk about "getting pressure with the front four" (note: SLB is NOT a defensive line position. :tongue:) Pass rushing is nice, but with nothing else, it's an active liability against the delay draws and screen passes it inevitably prompts. In particular, the SLBs primary duty run stopping at least as well as he blitzes, since teams running to his side do so with an extra blocker. That makes Miller an exceptional pass rusher unreliable at his primary duty, often lost in pass coverage.

I expect both things to change, at which point he'd make an exceptional MLB, and I still think MLB more important than SLB for any 4-3; 3-4s are all about OLBs and NTs, but 4-3s are all about MLBs and DEs.

Thomas has different problems just as critical at his position, so we had three elite talents, one of which was fading and another of which wasn't even adequate last year, probably due to injury (not that the reason matters much in the win column.) Somehow, we still managed to win 7 of our last 11 games and beat the #1 defense in the playoffs, and our rushing was pitiful in that playoff win: We won PASSING.


You're right, injuries were important; our secondary was Swiss cheese after Dawkins got hurt, and Miller was a completely different player with his hand in a cast. 7-4 and a win against the #1 passing D anyway (though they were a little banged up for the playoffs, too.) The season didn't start when Tebow took over; only the WINNING did.




I take it you prefer to look at the LAST five games, where I've repeatedly stated Tebow looked bad (particularly the rematch against KC, where I blame the loss almost entirely on his timidity.) I'm just comparing all the games Tebow didn't play (1-4) to all the games he did (7-5 plus a playoff win.) The only differences are that we lost Lloyd and gained Tebow, though we did lose Dawkins and much of Miller toward the end of the season (but PASSED our way to a playoff win anyway.)

Yes, our RB is similar, and I am concerned about it, particularly since our line is such utter garbage McGahee (and everyone else) must break two tackles just to reach the line of scrimmage. There's a reason he and Moreno are banged up so much: They get hit a lot more than they should, which is a tribute to McGahees production last year, but he's still >30, still going to get pounded, and we don't have much more behind him than we do Manning (I'm optimistic about Jeremiah Johnson, but Ball is a scrub.) Dropping $20 million/year on a QB who'll be gone in two seasons doesn't do much to solve that problem either.

Well, anyway, I enjoyed the Pittsburgh game, even with the awful record setting QB.

Moving Miller to the middle would be a monumental mistake.

And please note that I did not say what you quoted me saying in your final quote. Thanks.

Tned
05-14-2012, 07:54 AM
I still haven't rewatched this game. I watched it live in the stands, but haven't watched it on the TV. I need to do that this weekend.