Little tidbit on Orton from Matt Forte

[BroncoWave]

I saw Forte on campus today and asked him about Orton and he said that he was one of the hardest workers on the Bears and was always at the facilities over an hour before anyone else studying and looking at tape and things like that. Forte thinks he'll be successful in Denver and he had nothing but good things to say about him. I also asked him about that other QB and he said he hasn't talked to him yet but he's excited to meet him and play with him this season.

[Lonestar]

the only bad things I have heard about Orton have been the perpetual whining on here..

Every thing I have heard about him has been positive, hard working, smarter than most, has a good strong arm and can make all the throws, can read defenses..

[LoyalSoldier]

I am not doubting his character or work ethic, I am doubting is ability to play at a high enough level. Some people with amazing good work ethic and brains fail to be great NFL players, but sometimes they move on to be amazing coaches because of those skill sets.

It is a matter of show me what you got. If Orton can be the QB we all hope he can be I'll be happy, but I am not getting my expectations up for a QB who has yet to break an 80 passer rating for a season.

[Ravage!!!]

I am not doubting his character or work ethic, I am doubting is ability to play at a high enough level. Some people with amazing good work ethic and brains fail to be great NFL players, but sometimes they move on to be amazing coaches because of those skill sets.

It is a matter of show me what you got. If Orton can be the QB we all hope he can be I'll be happy, but I am not getting my expectations up for a QB who has yet to break an 80 passer rating for a season.

Like you said. I think Orton is a good guy, a hard worker, and a good teammate. But "Rudy" was a hard worker. Being a hard worker and such doesn't mean he's the guy I want on the field.

NO ONE complained about the 'other QB' as a teammate. If/when people asked his teammates about him, they all had complimentary and positive things to say. The only complaints I heard about him, was the whining on the boards.

So like you said, Loyal. ITs not that we have anything AGAINST Kyle...its just that he has more to prove than what we knew we already had.

[BroncoWave]

Like you said. I think Orton is a good guy, a hard worker, and a good teammate. But "Rudy" was a hard worker. Being a hard worker and such doesn't mean he's the guy I want on the field.

NO ONE complained about the 'other QB' as a teammate. If/when people asked his teammates about him, they all had complimentary and positive things to say. The only complaints I heard about him, was the whining on the boards.

So like you said, Loyal. ITs not that we have anything AGAINST Kyle...its just that he has more to prove than what we knew we already had.

Yes, but nowhere near as many Broncos players have been as complementary of the player on his way out as Bears players have been of Orton on his way out.

[Ravage!!!]

Yes, but nowhere near as many Broncos players have been as complementary of the player on his way out as Bears players have been of Orton on his way out.

Doesn't mean anything to me. They were all supportive during the ordeal. I personally want the best PLAYER on the field. So getting the 'nicest' guy really isn't a priority to the needs for a better football team.

[Lonestar]

Like you said. I think Orton is a good guy, a hard worker, and a good teammate. But "Rudy" was a hard worker. Being a hard worker and such doesn't mean he's the guy I want on the field.

NO ONE complained about the 'other QB' as a teammate. If/when people asked his teammates about him, they all had complimentary and positive things to say. The only complaints I heard about him, was the whining on the boards.

So like you said, Loyal. ITs not that we have anything AGAINST Kyle...its just that he has more to prove than what we knew we already had.


while I get it that man fans really loved jay for his big arm, that was all we know for sure we had..

The jury was still out of jay and I think this new coaching staff did not see the $100,000,000.00 QB some of the fans seemed to think he was..

I think a guy that has tutored A HOF QB and another one this past year might just know more about what is going on than the fan base that only sees the guy for a few minutes a week..

SO do we really know what we had? Food for thought

[BeefStew25]

Jr, he is gone. Move on. Blow Mcd.

[hotcarl]

SO do we really know what we had? Food for thought

i want to eat your brains :zombie:
:welcome:

[Ravage!!!]

while I get it that man fans really loved jay for his big arm, that was all we know for sure we had..

The jury was still out of jay and I think this new coaching staff did not see the $100,000,000.00 QB some of the fans seemed to think he was..

I think a guy that has tutored A HOF QB and another one this past year might just know more about what is going on than the fan base that only sees the guy for a few minutes a week..

SO do we really know what we had? Food for thought

Sorry.. not buying that. It sounds good, but just not buying it.

Bringing in Cassel would have helped him out because right now, McDaniels is having to teach his coaches how to TEACH the system. Having Cassel on the team would have given him a player that could literally help COACH the offense without him having to give undivided attention to the QBs. He knew the QB got it, thus one less thing on his head.

I'm not judging Cutler's talent by his "big arm".. and honestly get tired of hearing that every time I show support for the PLAYER. I know enough about the position to know when I see talent....and I'm NOT the only one that sees that talent (considering what I've heard from a LOT of people "In the know" around the NFL). New coaches coming in don't like using other coache's players....its a stupid trend we have seen and one that even Walsh himself commented on (saying how stupid it was) before his passing.

We, the fans, are not the ONLY ones that see Jay's talent that is 'beyond' just his big arm strength. I would take Ron Jaworski's, Phil Simms, and Steve Young's opinion before I take McDaniel's opinion..... no matter who he was the OC for.

That being said.... I don't think that Cutler's 'play' had ANYTHING to do with the decision to try and trade for Cassel.

[Lonestar]

Sorry.. not buying that. It sounds good, but just not buying it.

Bringing in Cassel would have helped him out because right now, McDaniels is having to teach his coaches how to TEACH the system. Having Cassel on the team would have given him a player that could literally help COACH the offense without him having to give undivided attention to the QBs. He knew the QB got it, thus one less thing on his head.

I'm not judging Cutler's talent by his "big arm".. and honestly get tired of hearing that every time I show support for the PLAYER. I know enough about the position to know when I see talent....and I'm NOT the only one that sees that talent (considering what I've heard from a LOT of people "In the know" around the NFL). New coaches coming in don't like using other coache's players....its a stupid trend we have seen and one that even Walsh himself commented on (saying how stupid it was) before his passing.

We, the fans, are not the ONLY ones that see Jay's talent that is 'beyond' just his big arm strength. I would take Ron Jaworski's, Phil Simms, and Steve Young's opinion before I take McDaniel's opinion..... no matter who he was the OC for.

That being said.... I don't think that Cutler's 'play' had ANYTHING to do with the decision to try and trade for Cassel.


I think he wanted cassell for the reason you mentioned but they also had to have some knowledge after being a few months that jay was not loved by one an all.. as well as watching hours of game tape.. the EX QB coach and OC who has seen the best at work had to know that it was going to be an issue with not allowing him to air it out like mikey did..

Sure he had a chance pick up cassell and he would have been happy to have his LEADERSHIP and KNOWLEDGE on the field..

AS for that others drooling over jay how much other than film work did they see of him? I believe that he will not be as missed in the locker room as so many here think he will be.. I believe that many especially those few left on D were happy to see him go..

[topscribe]

I am not doubting his character or work ethic, I am doubting is ability to play at a high enough level. Some people with amazing good work ethic and brains fail to be great NFL players, but sometimes they move on to be amazing coaches because of those skill sets.

It is a matter of show me what you got. If Orton can be the QB we all hope he can be I'll be happy, but I am not getting my expectations up for a QB who has yet to break an 80 passer rating for a season.


Here is an excerpt from an article from Mile High Report, titled Tales: Who Is Kyle Orton? (http://www.milehighreport.com/2009/4/19/840423/tales-who-is-kyle-orton)


Orton didn't just compete for that job; he took the job and ran with it. In the firs half of 2008 Orton was a hot QB. By the end of that season his completion percentage had dropped for a high of about 61.6% to 58.6%. This told little of the story, though. By now, he'd straightened out a lot of his mechanics. His natural arm strength was tempered by an improved accuracy on many of the throws. His footwork became sound. His ability at reading coverages, which be began to learn his freshman year in college, greatly improved. And, they didn't expect him to be able to carry the club. That's good - there are very few playoff teams who are 'carried' by their QB. For the Broncos to get there, they will need to have the pieces and the schemes beyond the QB in place, but that should be a given.

He was injured midseason; suffering a high ankle sprain in the game against Detroit on November 2. He took only one game off and fought through the ankle injury despite how it interfered with his mechanics. In fact, I would suggest that 2008's numbers are meaningless unless you note that he played about half the season injured.

His pre-injury stats of 151 completions on 244 passes (61.6%) for 1,777 yards with 10 TD and 4 INT were very good. His QB rating of 90.8 for those games easily exceeds Cutler's 2008 rating of 86.9. But after the injury, the games increasingly went south and so did his numbers. He ended the season with a QB rating of 79.6, an 11.2-point drop.


This is a superb article that should be required reading for anyone who seriously wants to learn about Orton.

-----

[Ravage!!!]

AS for that others drooling over jay how much other than film work did they see of him? I believe that he will not be as missed in the locker room as so many here think he will be.. I believe that many especially those few left on D were happy to see him go..

I don't think thats true at all... but I guess we'll both just choose to believe what we want to believe. I don't think the defense has a single OUNCE of things to complain about Cutler.... but again.... thats just how I choose to see it.

[hotcarl]

raji

[Simple Jaded]

the only bad things I have heard about Orton have been the perpetual whining on here..

Every thing I have heard about him has been positive, hard working, smarter than most, has a good strong arm and can make all the throws, can read defenses..

You say that as if the perpetual whining about the perpetual whining is any better.

As for Orton, he is a dime-o-dozen QB, he's a stiff.......if he is going to be a Championship Caliber player he is going to need Doogie to be as good (or better) as people think he is, there is exactly nothing special about Kyle Orton.......

[topscribe]

You say that as if the perpetual whining about the perpetual whining is any better.

As for Orton, he is a dime-o-dozen QB, he's a stiff.......if he is going to be a Championship Caliber player he is going to need Doogie to be as good (or better) as people think he is, there is exactly nothing special about Kyle Orton.......

Would you care to document your assertion?

I did mine. (http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=632805&postcount=12)

-----

[BeefStew25]

Here is an excerpt from an article from Mile High Report, titled Tales: Who Is Kyle Orton? (http://www.milehighreport.com/2009/4/19/840423/tales-who-is-kyle-orton)




This is a superb article that should be required reading for anyone who seriously wants to learn about Orton.

-----

Yeah, I guess we have to talk ourselves into being pumped about this.

[honz]

Jr, he is gone. Move on. Blow Mcd.

You're a Bears fan. Move on. Blow Cutler.

[BeefStew25]

You're a Bears fan. Move on. Blow Cutler.

Good point.

[silkamilkamonico]

You say that as if the perpetual whining about the perpetual whining is any better.

As for Orton, he is a dime-o-dozen QB, he's a stiff.......if he is going to be a Championship Caliber player he is going to need Doogie to be as good (or better) as people think he is, there is exactly nothing special about Kyle Orton.......

There's a plethora of QB's in the NFL these days that are either uber talented, or system QB's. In fact, one could look back the last 2-3 years and make an argument for over half of the QB's in the NFL. If Orton is a very good system guy, he would be dynamic in McDaniels offense.

I mean let's face it. There was nothing special about Drew Brees either until he got into a system that fit him.

[Simple Jaded]

Would you care to document your assertion?

I did mine. (http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=632805&postcount=12)

-----
I don't do propaganda, or puff pieces.......

[Lonestar]

You say that as if the perpetual whining about the perpetual whining is any better.

As for Orton, he is a dime-o-dozen QB, he's a stiff.......if he is going to be a Championship Caliber player he is going to need Doogie to be as good (or better) as people think he is, there is exactly nothing special about Kyle Orton.......

and that was what many said about Brady and Cassell..

Just because you do not think much of either Josh or Orton means nada only that PAT likes them..

[Davii]

Unfortunately, Orton's tenure has already begun on a negative note. He is going to be constantly compared to Jay. Every bad throw, every interception will hold twice the weight because of that.

Orton might be a good QB, he might even be good enough, but unless he is great he will be looked upon as a failure.

Sad but true. Elway's shadow still looms, but it's even darker with the shadow of the Jay that could've been thrown in the mix.

I am a Bronco's fan until either I or the Broncos are no more, I will cheer for Orton at every opportunity. I just hope the choices that McKid have made so far give us reasons to do so.

[Shazam!]

Davii, I have a different perspective on that, and I mentioned this before.

For the first time in over a decade, the current Broncos QB will not be compared to John Elway, he'll be compared to Jay Cutler which is a much more easier position to fill.

Hell, he can even be compared to Jake Plummer, the last QB in Denver to have a winning record. Even if it is said 'It was the D's fault!!!' (Cutler's record) doesn't matter.

Winning cures all. If McD gets everyone together, playing well, and is somehow able to turn this team into a legit Playoff threat, everyone will forget the Shanahan and Cutler drama.

[Simple Jaded]

and that was what many said about Brady and Cassell..

Just because you do not think much of either Josh or Orton means nada only that PAT likes them..

Doogie did a phenomenal coaching job with Matt Cassell, I can't say enough about the job he did as an OC in 2007-08, so to say I don't think much of Doogie is just you not liking what I have to say about him.

I think he's in over his head, I think he's Mike Shanahan V2.0 and he's too damn arrogant for a 32 year old who's never done a damn thing without Bill Belicheat.

As far as my opinion not mattering, join the club, I suppose we should just shut down the message board if the only one who can post an opinion is PAT Monfort.

Btw, Doogie had nothing to do with developing Tom Brady.......

[topscribe]

I don't do propaganda, or puff pieces.......

What you are saying, then, is not only do you not have any to offer of your
own, but you did not bother to read mine?

-----

[LoyalSoldier]

Here is an excerpt from an article from Mile High Report, titled Tales: Who Is Kyle Orton? (http://www.milehighreport.com/2009/4/19/840423/tales-who-is-kyle-orton)




This is a superb article that should be required reading for anyone who seriously wants to learn about Orton.

-----


If I hadn't compiled the stats myself a while back I may have believed that.
Sorry, but that doesn't explain the story.

He racked up the TDs against terrible teams like the lions and those 4 interceptions came in critical games against winning teams. He was mediocre against Tampa, Phily, and Carolina. I did this chart a while back. In fact he was so mediocre against winning teams that he only had one extra TD over turnovers.


http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/1947/kyleortonwinningteams.png

Like I said, I really hope he proves me wrong, but I just don't see him as the QB we need to win.

[Scarface]

the only bad things I have heard about Orton have been the perpetual whining on here..

Every thing I have heard about him has been positive, hard working, smarter than most, has a good strong arm and can make all the throws, can read defenses..

If he's such a great player why did they give him up with a truck load of draft picks for another QB?

[BroncoNut]

If he's such a great player why did they give him up with a truck load of draft picks for another QB?

it was JC man. Chicago's next franchise quarterback and rocket arm probowler

[atwater27]

Yes, but nowhere near as many Broncos players have been as complementary of the player on his way out as Bears players have been of Orton on his way out.

Because they feel sorry he was punked like that.

[atwater27]

I think a guy that has tutored A HOF QB and another one this past year might just know more about what is going on than the fan base that only sees the guy for a few minutes a week..


Yeah. He and Cutler go waaaay back.

[Fan in Exile]

If I hadn't compiled the stats myself a while back I may have believed that.
Sorry, but that doesn't explain the story.

He racked up the TDs against terrible teams like the lions and those 4 interceptions came in critical games against winning teams. He was mediocre against Tampa, Phily, and Carolina. I did this chart a while back. In fact he was so mediocre against winning teams that he only had one extra TD over turnovers.


http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/1947/kyleortonwinningteams.png

Like I said, I really hope he proves me wrong, but I just don't see him as the QB we need to win.

The underlying assumption with this post is IMO incorrect. You're implying that just because he beat up on weaker teams those stats should be disregarded.

However Football Outsiders has been studying that question for a while now and the conclusion that they've come to is that teams who can beat up on weaker competition are the ones who are successful. This was done as part of their look at guts and stomps.

If that truly is accurate and for now it seems to be then to the extent that he did do well against weaker competition we can expect that to be a predictor of success. Therefore we shouldn't just throw out those numbers because they're against teams like the Lions.

The other problem with this post is on what basis are you saying that his performance against Tampa, Philly, and Carolina was mediocre. It seems that the statement is made simply on the lower passer rating without taking into account the context of the stat.

By that I mean to say it may be mediocre for a season long passer rating but against those three teams it may instead be fantastic. It's quite possible that the passer rating he posted for those games is higher than the average passer rating those teams allowed. Then we should view it not as mediocre but as a good passer rating. You simply have not put the stats into enough context to come to any kind of sensible conclusion.

Before someone post accusing me of swinging from Orton's nut sack let me be clear I think Cutler is a more physically talented QB than Orton.

I do however like the fact that Orton has worked hard to improve himself over the years and I hope that he hasn't yet reached his ceiling as far as on the field performance, because he's a Bronco now and above all I want the Bronco's to win.

[T.K.O.]

we wont know til december if we're better or worse off with the offseason changes.
i did however watch that chicago/vikings game on nfln yesterday,and must admit orton looked every bit as good as jay,he didnt throw an incompletion til the end of the 1st qtr.
the commentators kept saying how well orton had played the last 4 games and that...and i quote " he had a LASER arm "
i must admit i was another bronco fan brainwashed into thinking jay was to awesome for words etc...
now after seeing orton lead an offense ,i really dont think we will see much of a (if any) dropoff at qb ! especially when you consider mcD had reservations about cutlers ability to learn his system.
what i saw orton doing was short acurate passes and the occasional 30 yd bullet and he was "threading the needle". thats all we need at qb with the new scheme so dont be so sure the sky is falling !..........GO BRONCOS!

[powderaddict]

If I hadn't compiled the stats myself a while back I may have believed that.
Sorry, but that doesn't explain the story.

He racked up the TDs against terrible teams like the lions and those 4 interceptions came in critical games against winning teams. He was mediocre against Tampa, Phily, and Carolina. I did this chart a while back. In fact he was so mediocre against winning teams that he only had one extra TD over turnovers.


http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/1947/kyleortonwinningteams.png

Like I said, I really hope he proves me wrong, but I just don't see him as the QB we need to win.

So he played better against weaker defenses, and didn't play as good against stronger defenses??

The hell you say!! :lol:

I'd like to see Cutler's stats in the "Good D vs Bad D" breakdown.

I'd hazard a guess that most if not all QB's play better against weaker defenses that they do against stronger defenses :lol:

[T.K.O.]

and kyle's 12 picks were worse than jay's 18......i see
i realize jay threw the ball alot more,but i seem to remember alot of jay's picks costing us points.... kyle is no superstar but he is an efficient qb with a winning record,we could have done alot worse !

[silkamilkamonico]

Like I said, I really hope he proves me wrong, but I just don't see him as the QB we need to win.

Denver hasn't had the QB they needed to win win since Jake Plunger. I know I know, it was the team. Improve the team, and even Kyle Orton can win. He's done it before.

[LoyalSoldier]

The underlying assumption with this post is IMO incorrect. You're implying that just because he beat up on weaker teams those stats should be disregarded.

I am implying that when playoff spots and position were on the line he was less than spectacular.


However Football Outsiders has been studying that question for a while now and the conclusion that they've come to is that teams who can beat up on weaker competition are the ones who are successful. This was done as part of their look at guts and stomps.

If that truly is accurate and for now it seems to be then to the extent that he did do well against weaker competition we can expect that to be a predictor of success. Therefore we shouldn't just throw out those numbers because they're against teams like the Lions.

So if I score 30 points in my church basketball league that means I can play in the NBA because 30 points against any competition is valid correct? No? Now that is an extreme, but my point still stands. The lions were so terrible they did what no other team in NFL history did.

Sure you should destroy the teams you are suppose to. Yet those garbage teams aren't going to be in the playoffs, the 11-5, 12-4, 13-3, 14-2, etc. teams will be.

I mean you are allowed a few bad games, but when your average rating against winning teams is below 80 that means you don't play well against quality teams. That is a liability at QB.


The other problem with this post is on what basis are you saying that his performance against Tampa, Philly, and Carolina was mediocre. It seems that the statement is made simply on the lower passer rating without taking into account the context of the stat.

By that I mean to say it may be mediocre for a season long passer rating but against those three teams it may instead be fantastic. It's quite possible that the passer rating he posted for those games is higher than the average passer rating those teams allowed. Then we should view it not as mediocre but as a good passer rating. You simply have not put the stats into enough context to come to any kind of sensible conclusion.

It doesn't matter if you get 10 points over a 50 average for a passer rating, it still is terrible play against good teams. That is basically saying that just because you threw 2 ints instead of the usual 3 it was an accomplishment? I understand that better defenses mean you won't go scoring crazy, but it still means you can't play terrible. He had 6 turnovers to 5 touchdowns. That is terrible play no matter who you are playing. And overall 9 out of Kyle's 12 interceptions came in key games.

[Thnikkaman]

I am not doubting his character or work ethic, I am doubting is ability to play at a high enough level. Some people with amazing good work ethic and brains fail to be great NFL players, but sometimes they move on to be amazing coaches because of those skill sets.



Gary Kubiac

[LoyalSoldier]

So he played better against weaker defenses, and didn't play as good against stronger defenses??

The hell you say!! :lol:

I'd like to see Cutler's stats in the "Good D vs Bad D" breakdown.

I'd hazard a guess that most if not all QB's play better against weaker defenses that they do against stronger defenses :lol:

Actually as a matter of fact I did do Cutler's stats as well. It was back in the thread I originally posted this in. Because I just knew someone would complain about it. Man I just love it when I am right.

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/2345/jaycutlerwinningteams.png

Not only was Cutler's average higher, Cutler showed a much higher consistency in his average passer rating. Cutler had fewer turnovers and more TDs. The funny part is they faced a lot of the same teams.

[omac]

One thing concerns me about Orton, and it has more to do with the kind of receivers we have. Brandon Marshall is big target, very physical and can make space and shield an area for the ball, but he doesn't exactly have separation speed. If you notice on a lot of his catches, the defender is right there with him. He doesn't have the speed of a Fitz for separation.

Orton will need to learn to throw into tighter windows, and probably with a little more zip.

Eddie Royal can definitely go deep, but Orton hasn't been very successful with deep throws in Chicago. He'll have to develop that and punish defenses deep, or defenses are going to sit on those short and intermediate passes.

He shouldn't have much problems with the quick, short, timing passes to Marshall, Eddie, or Stokley.

If he can learn to throw accurately and with more zip into tighter windows, and have enough success with deep passes, he should be fine.

[Northman]

I am not doubting his character or work ethic, I am doubting is ability to play at a high enough level. Some people with amazing good work ethic and brains fail to be great NFL players, but sometimes they move on to be amazing coaches because of those skill sets.

It is a matter of show me what you got. If Orton can be the QB we all hope he can be I'll be happy, but I am not getting my expectations up for a QB who has yet to break an 80 passer rating for a season.

But just like you cant blame Jay for the defense's fault you cant blame Orton for a bad Oline and no receivers. Although i agree its a wait and see game i think Orton's play and rating will go up being in Denver much like Plummer only he has a stronger work ethic.

[Northman]

Sorry.. not buying that. It sounds good, but just not buying it.

Bringing in Cassel would have helped him out because right now, McDaniels is having to teach his coaches how to TEACH the system. Having Cassel on the team would have given him a player that could literally help COACH the offense without him having to give undivided attention to the QBs. He knew the QB got it, thus one less thing on his head.

I'm not judging Cutler's talent by his "big arm".. and honestly get tired of hearing that every time I show support for the PLAYER. I know enough about the position to know when I see talent....and I'm NOT the only one that sees that talent (considering what I've heard from a LOT of people "In the know" around the NFL). New coaches coming in don't like using other coache's players....its a stupid trend we have seen and one that even Walsh himself commented on (saying how stupid it was) before his passing.

We, the fans, are not the ONLY ones that see Jay's talent that is 'beyond' just his big arm strength. I would take Ron Jaworski's, Phil Simms, and Steve Young's opinion before I take McDaniel's opinion..... no matter who he was the OC for.

That being said.... I don't think that Cutler's 'play' had ANYTHING to do with the decision to try and trade for Cassel.


Maybe, maybe not. For all the good things that Jay can do there is plenty ot be worried about.

1) Attitude: He doesnt handle adversity well at all and anyone who thinks so is naive.

2) Turnovers: He has a lot of turnovers both with Int's and fumbles. Fumbles being the biggest concern because both George and Culpepper had a serious knack for giving it away.

Now does it mean that Jay will fail? No. but i can see how that might raise the alarm for a new coach.

[topscribe]

If I hadn't compiled the stats myself a while back I may have believed that.
Sorry, but that doesn't explain the story.

He racked up the TDs against terrible teams like the lions and those 4 interceptions came in critical games against winning teams. He was mediocre against Tampa, Phily, and Carolina. I did this chart a while back. In fact he was so mediocre against winning teams that he only had one extra TD over turnovers.


http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/1947/kyleortonwinningteams.png

Like I said, I really hope he proves me wrong, but I just don't see him as the QB we need to win.

Might have believed what? What is "that"? Did you read the entire article to
which I linked? It contains a lot of "thats." Which "that" is it you don't believe?
You did a little chart and put it up against all the information that has been
compiled?

McDaniels studied Orton before ever talking with Chicago about a trade and
then during the talks. He broke down 10 games and studied them, play by
play. He came away saying he liked Orton for his arm, his accuracy, and for
"making the right decisions."

I not only have studied Orton's statistics, but I observed all of 65 clips from
his games last year.

Did you do all that?

But you pointed out how much better Orton did against weaker defenses than
he did against strong defenses. Is that true? Say it ain't so, LS! Did he really?
Ummm . . . isn't that what a strong defense is all about? I remember when
Brady came to town and the Broncos made him look very mediocre. Remember
that? Remember a certain Super Bowl where Big Ben managed a 21-something
passer rating? BTW, how did Peyton look last year against the Browns,
Packers, and the Vikings?

Oh yes, did you get a chance to see Orton and Peyton against each other in
the Chicago-Indy game? Had they not been wearing different colors, it would
have been hard to tell the respective QBs apart. Seriously.

To be honest, when the trade came down with Orton included, my initial
reaction was rather negative. That was because of my preconceived image of
Orton. It wasn't until after I spent hours studying him deeply, taking alllllll
factors into consideration, that I developed a positive opinion of him.

A little chart doesn't tell the story. Research is not effectively conducted that
way. There are too many independent variables that can skew the results. I
have very thoroughly presented the details in several places on three different
boards. And the article in question does a fine job of putting many of them
together. It might be a good idea to take the whole picture into consideration.

-----

[topscribe]

One thing concerns me about Orton, and it has more to do with the kind of receivers we have. Brandon Marshall is big target, very physical and can make space and shield an area for the ball, but he doesn't exactly have separation speed. If you notice on a lot of his catches, the defender is right there with him. He doesn't have the speed of a Fitz for separation.

Orton will need to learn to throw into tighter windows, and probably with a little more zip.

Eddie Royal can definitely go deep, but Orton hasn't been very successful with deep throws in Chicago. He'll have to develop that and punish defenses deep, or defenses are going to sit on those short and intermediate passes.

He shouldn't have much problems with the quick, short, timing passes to Marshall, Eddie, or Stokley.

If he can learn to throw accurately and with more zip into tighter windows, and have enough success with deep passes, he should be fine.

To be fair, Omac, Marshall wasn't playing at full speed last year. That is why
he had hip surgery this offseason. In fact, BMarsh said the same thing as you
about his performance in 2008, that he could not get the separation he
wanted. You might look back to 2007, when he had far less trouble getting
separation, and he displayed far more speed.

Regarding Orton, getting "zip" on his passes and fitting them into small windows
is a strength of his, according to scouts. And the research I have done has
done nothing to cause me to dispute that. It is true that Orton was bad--
really bad--passing deep. But he has improved immensely in that area and in
fact has begun to develop the knack of dropping the ball over the defender
when passing deep. So many of your concerns already appear answered.

-----

[Northman]

To be fair, Omac, Marshall wasn't playing at full speed last year. That is why
he had hip surgery this offseason. In fact, BMarsh said the same thing as you
about his performance in 2008, that he could not get the separation he
wanted. You might look back to 2007, when he had far less trouble getting
separation, and he displayed far more speed.

Regarding Orton, getting "zip" on his passes and fitting them into small windows
is a strength of his, according to scouts. And the research I have done has
done nothing to cause me to dispute that. It is true that Orton was bad--
really bad--passing deep. But he has improved immensely in that area and in
fact has begun to develop the knack of dropping the ball over the defender
when passing deep. So many of your concerns already appear answered.

-----

A lot of people dont want to see that he also is only in his 3rd year as a QB. So like Jay he has a lot of room to grow and now that he will have some weapons around him i do expect him to improve a lot.

[CoachChaz]

The problem we have is Orton is being compared to Cutler instead of being compared to his shorter clone...Drew Brees. There is a reason they both had success in Purdue's system and that's because they have identical skillset's.

So, please...tell me anyone would have a problem if Orton were given the opportunity to put up numbers like Brees is...and tell me Cutler is a better QB than Brees. I'll give you the fact that he is more physically gifted, but is he a better QB? I dont think so.

[NightTrainLayne]

A lot of people dont want to see that he also is only in his 3rd year as a QB. So like Jay he has a lot of room to grow and now that he will have some weapons around him i do expect him to improve a lot.

Last week or the week before when the NFLN replayed the Broncos/Chargers game from September of last season I noted that after Marshall caught one of the TD passes that they showed him at the sideline with the training staff working on his hip.

I hadn't remembered that, but since there was no comment I would have just chalked it up to a cramp or something when the game actually happened.

Now, it looks like to me that Marshall's hip problem was probably bothering him ALL of last season. Hopefully he will be back to 100% for this season.

[topscribe]

A lot of people dont want to see that he also is only in his 3rd year as a QB. So like Jay he has a lot of room to grow and now that he will have some weapons around him i do expect him to improve a lot.

Just to keep the facts straight, Orton actually has four years behind him as a
Chicago Bear. However, he has only two (2) years behind him on the field.

-----

[turftoad]

The problem we have is Orton is being compared to Cutler instead of being compared to his shorter clone...Drew Brees. There is a reason they both had success in Purdue's system and that's because they have identical skillset's.

So, please...tell me anyone would have a problem if Orton were given the opportunity to put up numbers like Brees is...and tell me Cutler is a better QB than Brees. I'll give you the fact that he is more physically gifted, but is he a better QB? I dont think so.

Bah, Brees was the first pick in the second round and should have gone higher. Orton was a 4th rounder.

Just because they went to the same school doesn't mean they have the same skill set.

You can't even compare Brees with Orton right now.

[EMB6903]

Orton isnt nearly as good as Brees nor does he have the same skill set.

Brees is the most accurate Quarterback in the league.... Orton has to battle for a starting spot every single year.

[LoyalSoldier]

Might have believed what? What is "that"? Did you read the entire article to
which I linked? It contains a lot of "thats." Which "that" is it you don't believe?
You did a little chart and put it up against all the information that has been
compiled?

The article was simply looking at his total stats through x number of games ignoring the fact that he did not play very well in critical games. The only game he did well in was against the Viks.

I haven't trashed him for games played after the injury as I know injury changes everything, but I am not impressed with the fact he could only have a decent game against some of the worst defenses in the NFL. The only good game against a notable defense was against the Viks.


McDaniels studied Orton before ever talking with Chicago about a trade and
then during the talks. He broke down 10 games and studied them, play by
play. He came away saying he liked Orton for his arm, his accuracy, and for
"making the right decisions."

I not only have studied Orton's statistics, but I observed all of 65 clips from
his games last year.

Did you do all that?


Actually yes I have. I actually watched all of the bears games that came on NFL replay and looked at all the highlights as much as I hate to use those. He isn't a total scrub, but he is still lacking.


But you pointed out how much better Orton did against weaker defenses than
he did against strong defenses. Is that true? Say it ain't so, LS! Did he really?
Ummm . . . isn't that what a strong defense is all about? I remember when
Brady came to town and the Broncos made him look very mediocre. Remember
that? Remember a certain Super Bowl where Big Ben managed a 21-something
passer rating? BTW, how did Peyton look last year against the Browns,
Packers, and the Vikings?

It isn't just the fact he didn't play amazingly well, he played like total garbage. 4 TDs to 5 turnovers is bad. I am not expecting him to throw 4 TDs against every defense, but for a game manager he sure seemed to turn the ball over a lot against those defenses.


Oh yes, did you get a chance to see Orton and Peyton against each other in
the Chicago-Indy game? Had they not been wearing different colors, it would
have been hard to tell the respective QBs apart. Seriously.

Mat Forte and the rest of the Bear's running game was the star of that game. No contest. Orton only had to make a throw here or there.

Not to mention Peyton was playing like total trash the first few games of the season.


A little chart doesn't tell the story. Research is not effectively conducted that
way. There are too many independent variables that can skew the results. I
have very thoroughly presented the details in several places on three different
boards. And the article in question does a fine job of putting many of them
together. It might be a good idea to take the whole picture into consideration.

-----

The picture is the sum of the parts. I have presented the parts of his play against teams that were either in the playoffs or very close to it. Again as I have said, you don't play the Lions in the playoffs. So if Orton can't get it done against good defenses, then there is no way in hell we are going anywhere with him.

You don't win playoff games by being able to only beat up on losing teams.

[turftoad]

Many people in the general public (football) fans seem to think that Orton may even get beaten out by Simms.

The starting job is NOT Ortons yet.

[LoyalSoldier]

Many people in the general public (football) fans seem to think that Orton may even get beaten out by Simms.

The starting job is NOT Ortons yet.

He better not. For all my doubts about Orton, I have about twice as many about Simms.

[turftoad]

He better not. For all my doubts about Orton, I have about twice as many about Simms.

Read through this thread. These guys are NFL football fans. Period.

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=465163

[Fan in Exile]

I am implying that when playoff spots and position were on the line he was less than spectacular.

This is something that you're completely adding now and never said before in your posts.




So if I score 30 points in my church basketball league that means I can play in the NBA because 30 points against any competition is valid correct? No? Now that is an extreme, but my point still stands. The lions were so terrible they did what no other team in NFL history did.

Those points he put up are still points against an NFL team and they are more indicative of future success than close wins against a good team. Those are the facts you may not like them but you can't change the truth.


Sure you should destroy the teams you are suppose to. Yet those garbage teams aren't going to be in the playoffs, the 11-5, 12-4, 13-3, 14-2, etc. teams will be.

I mean you are allowed a few bad games, but when your average rating against winning teams is below 80 that means you don't play well against quality teams. That is a liability at QB.

Again you're assuming something here that's just never been shown. What makes 80 the cut off point? You just picked a number you thought was reasonable and you're going with that because Orton averaged a 79. You pretty clearly just picked the number because it helps you with all your Orton hate.




It doesn't matter if you get 10 points over a 50 average for a passer rating, it still is terrible play against good teams. That is basically saying that just because you threw 2 ints instead of the usual 3 it was an accomplishment? I understand that better defenses mean you won't go scoring crazy, but it still means you can't play terrible. He had 6 turnovers to 5 touchdowns. That is terrible play no matter who you are playing. And overall 9 out of Kyle's 12 interceptions came in key games.

Yes if you throw two interceptions against a defense and the other teams threw 3 interceptions against that defense it does mean that you're good that's how it works. At the very least it means that you're better than like 15 other QBs out their which means that you're at least a passable NFL QB.

So until you can put this stat in context don't expect people to take it seriously.

More than that just because you cherry picked three games so that you can show Orton having more INT's than TD's doesn't mean you'll convince anyone either. We all know how to look at the big picture.

[topscribe]

The article was simply looking at his total stats through x number of games ignoring the fact that he did not play very well in critical games. The only game he did well in was against the Viks.

I haven't trashed him for games played after the injury as I know injury changes everything, but I am not impressed with the fact he could only have a decent game against some of the worst defenses in the NFL. The only good game against a notable defense was against the Viks.




Actually yes I have. I actually watched all of the bears games that came on NFL replay and looked at all the highlights as much as I hate to use those. He isn't a total scrub, but he is still lacking.



It isn't just the fact he didn't play amazingly well, he played like total garbage. 4 TDs to 5 turnovers is bad. I am not expecting him to throw 4 TDs against every defense, but for a game manager he sure seemed to turn the ball over a lot against those defenses.



Mat Forte and the rest of the Bear's running game was the star of that game. No contest. Orton only had to make a throw here or there.

Not to mention Peyton was playing like total trash the first few games of the season.



The picture is the sum of the parts. I have presented the parts of his play against teams that were either in the playoffs or very close to it. Again as I have said, you don't play the Lions in the playoffs. So if Orton can't get it done against good defenses, then there is no way in hell we are going anywhere with him.

You don't win playoff games by being able to only beat up on losing teams.

LS, are you aware that

* The Bears ranked #24 in the league in rushing yards?

* Their defense ranked #21 in yards surrendered, #18 in passing TDs, and #21 in rushing TDs?

* The Bears had a porous O-line and mediocre receivers as a whole?

* Orton played with a high ankle sprain the 2nd half of the year?

* Orton was in only his second year on the field through all that?


Nonetheless, your assertion that the article was nothing but stats indicates
to me that you did not read it, or at least you did nothing more than glance.

LS, I love ya, man, but your argument has taken the appearance of those of
all the other anti-Orton arguments: "he sucks," but no worthy documentation.
As I implied, I didn't especially like him either, initially. But I then paid
attention to the facts.

So I guess we're at the point were we just have to agree to disagree. :noidea:

-----

[powderaddict]

How did Cutler perform last year against superior competition with the playoffs on the line?

10 points against Carolina
17 against SD
I can't remember off the top of my head the Buffalo game.

I'm not blaming Cutler for those losses, but he wasn't great those games either.

[LoyalSoldier]

This is something that you're completely adding now and never said before in your posts.

Tell me. What is the whole point of looking at his performance against winning teams? Because those are the teams you need to beat to be good.


Those points he put up are still points against an NFL team and they are more indicative of future success than close wins against a good team. Those are the facts you may not like them but you can't change the truth.

49 points against the Lions != 49 points against the Steelers.

All scores are not created equal.


Again you're assuming something here that's just never been shown. What makes 80 the cut off point? You just picked a number you thought was reasonable and you're going with that because Orton averaged a 79.

It is based off of the league average and not my own bias.

A mediocre game is in the 70s(2 TD 2 Int) while a good game in the 80s. Anything above the 80s is amazing. It isn't an arbitrary number at all.

Just go look at all of Jay's bad games. What number was his rating? 70s or lower. The last 3 games which everyone loves ragging on Cutler for he had ratings of 74, 72, and 74.


You pretty clearly just picked the number because it helps you with all your Orton hate.

No I didn't. Apparently I struck a nerve because now instead of debating the issues you are trying to label me as strictly a Orton hater. Ad hominem fallacy at its finest.


Yes if you throw two interceptions against a defense and the other teams threw 3 interceptions against that defense it does mean that you're good that's how it works. At the very least it means that you're better than like 15 other QBs out their which means that you're at least a passable NFL QB.


2 Ints = Bad

Doesn't matter who it was against.


More than that just because you cherry picked three games so that you can show Orton having more INT's than TD's doesn't mean you'll convince anyone either. We all know how to look at the big picture.

Cherry picking? I gave you every single winning team. I took those three games because it was before his injury. I was actually being very nice to you guys and ignoring his other miserable games after his injury.

[topscribe]

Read through this thread. These guys are NFL football fans. Period.

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=465163

Thanks for the link, Turf. However, I don't see where those guys have anything
on our posters here . . . even those here who have fooled themselves over
Orton. :D

I think I'll just stick to the opinions here: I'm getting just as much out of them. http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thdrink.gif

-----

[LoyalSoldier]

LS, are you aware that

* The Bears ranked #24 in the league in rushing yards?

* Their defense ranked #21 in yards surrendered, #18 in passing TDs, and #21 in rushing TDs?


The Bears were still 16th inp scoring, 3rd in interceptions, 2nd in fumbles for TD, and #2 overall in turnovers forced.

For all their issues they were still a respectable defense.




* The Bears had a porous O-line and mediocre receivers as a whole?

* Orton played with a high ankle sprain the 2nd half of the year?

* Orton was in only his second year on the field through all that?

Which is why I am not pointing out the games after his injury.

And also if it took him 4 years to finally beat out Rex Grossman and Brian Greese, this isn't something to bragging about.


Nonetheless, your assertion that the article was nothing but stats indicates
to me that you did not read it, or at least you did nothing more than glance.

I read the whole thing, I just said I didn't care much about it since it's punch line was that he had a rating of 90 before his injury. To which I pointed out that nearly all of his stats were from a couple of games. Everything else was a typical article about a player.


LS, I love ya, man, but your argument has taken the appearance of those of
all the other anti-Orton arguments: "he sucks," but no worthy documentation.
As I implied, I didn't especially like him either, initially. But I then paid
attention to the facts.

So I guess we're at the point were we just have to agree to disagree. :noidea:

-----

So I guess his performance against winning teams has no meaning....

[turftoad]

Thanks for the link, Turf. However, I don't see where those guys have anything
on our posters here . . . even those here who have fooled themselves over
Orton. :D

I think I'll just stick to the opinions here: I'm getting just as much out of them. http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thdrink.gif

-----

Agreed, however, those guys opinions don't wear orange and blue sunglasses. :D Kind of nice to read some non bias opinions sometimes.

[topscribe]

The Bears were still 16th inp scoring, 3rd in interceptions, 2nd in fumbles for TD, and #2 overall in turnovers forced.

For all their issues they were still a respectable defense.




Which is why I am not pointing out the games after his injury.

And also if it took him 4 years to finally beat out Rex Grossman and Brian Greese, this isn't something to bragging about.



I read the whole thing, I just said I didn't care much about it since it's punch line was that he had a rating of 90 before his injury. To which I pointed out that nearly all of his stats were from a couple of games. Everything else was a typical article about a player.



So I guess his performance against winning teams has no meaning....

Actually, it took Orton one offseason to beat out Grossman . . . and he never
lost his job, even after Grossman filled in for Orton when Orton was down with
that ankle sprain. But your pointing this out shows you didn't pay much
attention to the article, in which the scouts were warning the team who
selected him not to throw him immediately into action, that he was coming
into the league not ready for NFL action.

But I was quite happy with his performance against the winning teams. I guess
that's because I took all factors into consideration, rather than just to say,
"Look at that."

Oh well, believe what you want, LS. Even McDaniels disagrees with you . . .

-----

[topscribe]

Agreed, however, those guys opinions don't wear orange and blue sunglasses. :D Kind of nice to read some non bias opinions sometimes.

Nah, they're all biased, friend. :nod:

Preconception is rampant on these boards . . . all of them. :coffee:

(Including me . . . as I noted by saying I initially didn't like Orton.)


-----

[turftoad]

Nah, they're all biased, friend. :nod:

Preconception is rampant on these boards . . . all of them. :coffee:

(Including me . . . as I noted by saying I initially didn't like Orton.)


-----
Oh, I agree. However, unlike here, they are not Broncos fans first. Therefor they have more of an unbiased opinion toward the Broncos situation.

[topscribe]

Oh, I agree. However, unlike here, they are not Broncos fans first. Therefor they have more of an unbiased opinion toward the Broncos situation.

Well, the first thing that turned me off was the very first post, where the
poster quoted the notes as saying Simms has a "much stronger" arm than
Orton. That was a misquote. The original notes said that Simms' arm appeared
a little stronger. (I don't recall the exact quote, but this was the implication.)

But then, that was one solitary poster. I should give it more of a chance than
that. So I will. http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thdrink.gif

-----

[turftoad]

Well, the first thing that turned me off was the very first post, where the
poster quoted the notes as saying Simms has a "much stronger" arm than
Orton. That was a misquote. The original notes said that Simms' arm appeared
a little stronger. (I don't recall the exact quote, but this was the implication.)

But then, that was one solitary poster. I should give it more of a chance than
that. So I will. http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thdrink.gif

-----

The guy that started that thread lives in Denver. He also has press pass credentials so............. he goes to workouts, press conferences, training camp etc... etc... He was there, that was his opinion. His name is Cecil Lammey.

He also writes for this site:

http://www.footballguys.com/

And ownes this one with a guy named Sigmond Bloom: They are both very good.

http://www.draftguys.com/

Granted, there are more fantasy based than anything, but, he knows what he's talking about. I have much respect for them.

That said, the other posters opinions are good and fun to read also.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Cecil rawks.

[topscribe]

The guy that started that thread lives in Denver. He also has press pass credentials so............. he goes to workouts, press conferences, training camp etc... etc... He was there, that was his opinion. His name is Cecil Lammey.

He also writes for this site:

http://www.footballguys.com/

And ownes this one with a guy named Sigmond Bloom: They are both very good.

http://www.draftguys.com/

Granted, there are more fantasy based than anything, but, he knows what he's talking about. I have much respect for them.

That said, the other posters opinions are good and fun to read also.

Then he would be a good one to pay attention to. Thanks.

-----

[LoyalSoldier]

Actually, it took Orton one offseason to beat out Grossman . . . and he never
lost his job, even after Grossman filled in for Orton when Orton was down with
that ankle sprain.

One offseason after being on the Roster for 4 years.


But your pointing this out shows you didn't pay much
attention to the article, in which the scouts were warning the team who
selected him not to throw him immediately into action, that he was coming
into the league not ready for NFL action.

If you mean the whole article then yes, but your little excerpt never mentioned that which is what I was saying I read. I didn't have time to sit down and read 4 pages worth of material since I was only on an hour break.


But I was quite happy with his performance against the winning teams. I guess
that's because I took all factors into consideration, rather than just to say,
"Look at that."

I would love to hear what factors overcame the massive turnover spree. If you can explain them do so. I mean the Eagles game he started out ok and then in the third quarter turned the ball over 3 times.


Oh well, believe what you want, LS. Even McDaniels disagrees with you . . .

-----

If they draft Sanchez (Oh please no!:eek:) then it will say he agrees with me and sees Orton as nothing more than a bandage.

As I keep saying, I would really love for Orton to prove me wrong, but this far I only see an average QB. He has only had one good season so far and even then it was still average.

The only person who can change my mind on that is Orton himself.

[topscribe]

One offseason after being on the Roster for 4 years.


No, LS, it was after being on the roster for three years. This last year was his fourth.

And it was after being on the field for all of one (1) year . . .

-----

[LoyalSoldier]

No, LS, it was after being on the roster for three years. This last year was his fourth.

And it was after being on the field for all of one (1) year . . .

-----

Ok so I over counted a year.

Oh and a correction. He started the last 3 games of the 2007 season, he was mediocre in two out of three those games.

[Lonestar]

A lot of people dont want to see that he also is only in his 3rd year as a QB. So like Jay he has a lot of room to grow and now that he will have some weapons around him i do expect him to improve a lot.

I think everyone knows that jay was a third year year QB.. but what I had issues with were the same thing I had with greasy went things went south it was really the straits of Magellan for jay.. they would both sit ON eh bench and either beat themselves up or pout about someone dropping a pass. that is not someone I want to pay up wards of a $120,000,000.00 to.. If Josh saw that and his inability to look off WR since HS.. perhaps he saw something that the lay person did not after studying his film more from and HC POV..

Can he improve I'm sure he can.. an he be effective in this offense I suspect he could but perhaps there were more bad habits to break than Josh wanted to deal with considering he had a mammoth contract coming up nest year.. Maybe it was better to bring someone else to learn the system they wanted to have..

[BeefStew25]

I think everyone knows that jay was a third year year QB.. but what I had issues with were the same thing I had with greasy went things went south it was really the straits of Magellan for jay.. they would both sit ON eh bench and either beat themselves up or pout about someone dropping a pass. that is not someone I want to pay up wards of a $120,000,000.00 to.. If Josh saw that and his inability to look off WR since HS.. perhaps he saw something that the lay person did not after studying his film more from and HC POV..

Can he improve I'm sure he can.. an he be effective in this offense I suspect he could but perhaps there were more bad habits to break than Josh wanted to deal with considering he had a mammoth contract coming up nest year.. Maybe it was better to bring someone else to learn the system they wanted to have..

This thread is about a current Bronco, not a former Bronco. Please adjust your posts accordingly.

[BroncoNut]

This thread is about a current Bronco, not a former Bronco. Please adjust your posts accordingly.

great call and way to take charge. :salute:

[BeefStew25]

great call and way to take charge. :salute:

I am just getting tired of all this bullshit. Support your team, not a guy on another team, you know?

[Requiem / The Dagda]

ABout straightT as ana AArorw BEEF.

[topscribe]

Ok so I over counted a year.

Oh and a correction. He started the last 3 games of the 2007 season, he was mediocre in two out of three those games.

Okay, LS, if splitting hairs is your bag: Orton played 15 games in 2005 and 15
games in 2008. In 2007, he played 3 games. Therefore, he has played all of
two (2) years + one (1) game.

Therefore, in view that Orton was playing essentially his sophomore season
last year, I am quite encouraged by his overall performance. I am not one of
these people who expect a QB in his 2nd year play like a seasoned 10-year
vet, especially when, as that 2nd-year QB, he had to deal with the factors
I outlined in this post (http://broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=633450&postcount=56). :noidea:

-----

[LoyalSoldier]

Okay, LS, if splitting hairs is your bag: Orton played 15 games in 2005 and 15
games in 2008. In 2007, he played 3 games. Therefore, he has played all of
two (2) years + one (1) game.

Therefore, in view that Orton was playing essentially his sophomore season
last year, I am quite encouraged by his overall performance. I am not one of
these people who expect a QB in his 2nd year play like a seasoned 10-year
vet, especially when, as that 2nd-year QB, he had to deal with the factors
I outlined in this post (http://broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=633450&postcount=56). :noidea:

-----

I wasn't splitting hairs I was correcting myself. I was noting that he did get the starting job at the end of 2007.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Orton is a top 5 bad QB of all-time.

[omac]

To be fair, Omac, Marshall wasn't playing at full speed last year. That is why
he had hip surgery this offseason. In fact, BMarsh said the same thing as you
about his performance in 2008, that he could not get the separation he
wanted. You might look back to 2007, when he had far less trouble getting
separation, and he displayed far more speed.

Regarding Orton, getting "zip" on his passes and fitting them into small windows
is a strength of his, according to scouts. And the research I have done has
done nothing to cause me to dispute that. It is true that Orton was bad--
really bad--passing deep. But he has improved immensely in that area and in
fact has begun to develop the knack of dropping the ball over the defender
when passing deep. So many of your concerns already appear answered.

-----

I hope you are right about Brandon's hip surgery being the reason he couldn't get separation. He said the hip affected his YAC. Even in 2007, though, I don't think he got the same kind of separation that Javon used to get.

Most of Orton's good passes have a good amount of air under them. He's really good at lobbing passes over defenders, timing patterns; he'd usually get a one on one, either because their play action due to Forte was really good, or no one really respected their stable of receivers. The situation was the opposite in Denver, at least for last season. Hopefully, McDaniels can improve our rushing offense so it can again be seen as a threat.

Btw, I'm not knocking Orton. I thought he was a good QB before Denver even got him, and way before it became popular opinion to think of him as a good QB. I just feel these are things he needs to get really good at, or McDaniels' spread offense will turn into more of a dink-and-dunk that some defenses will be able to tee up on.

[Fan in Exile]

Tell me. What is the whole point of looking at his performance against winning teams? Because those are the teams you need to beat to be good.



49 points against the Lions != 49 points against the Steelers.

All scores are not created equal.



It is based off of the league average and not my own bias.

A mediocre game is in the 70s(2 TD 2 Int) while a good game in the 80s. Anything above the 80s is amazing. It isn't an arbitrary number at all.

Just go look at all of Jay's bad games. What number was his rating? 70s or lower. The last 3 games which everyone loves ragging on Cutler for he had ratings of 74, 72, and 74.



No I didn't. Apparently I struck a nerve because now instead of debating the issues you are trying to label me as strictly a Orton hater. Ad hominem fallacy at its finest.



2 Ints = Bad

Doesn't matter who it was against.



Cherry picking? I gave you every single winning team. I took those three games because it was before his injury. I was actually being very nice to you guys and ignoring his other miserable games after his injury.

Clearly you're not going to get it.

[BroncoWave]

If they draft Sanchez (Oh please no!:eek:) then it will say he agrees with me and sees Orton as nothing more than a bandage.

If McDaniels saw Orton as nothing more than a bandage, he wouldn't have turned down offers with higher draft picks from other teams. The fact that he took weaker draft picks than the Bucs, Skins, or Lions offered shows that he thinks of Orton as a little more than a stopgap.

[Ravage!!!]

If McDaniels saw Orton as nothing more than a bandage, he wouldn't have turned down offers with higher draft picks from other teams. The fact that he took weaker draft picks than the Bucs, Skins, or Lions offered shows that he thinks of Orton as a little more than a stopgap.

Not necessarily at all. It shows that he's willing to use the stop-gap QB for a year or two while we build up other aspects of the team. It means, that of the all the stop-gap QBs we could get, he felt Orton was best for NOW. It does NOT mean that he sees Orton as anything other than a stop-gap QB taht holds the spot until we actually find a franchise quality QB.

[LoyalSoldier]

Clearly you're not going to get it.

That's ok you don't either. But go on. I liked your Ad hominems. Made you look smart.

[Buff]

I am just getting tired of all this bullshit. Support your team, not a guy on another team, you know?

Just let it all out getlynched47.

[slim]

Just let it all out getlynched47.

Oh no you didn't :doublesnap:

[Fan in Exile]

That's ok you don't either. But go on. I liked your Ad hominems. Made you look smart.

At worst it would be one Ad Hominem. However, I liked your grammar and syntax, because they explain why you couldn't put stats into context.

[broncofaninfla]

I'll admit I haven't studied Orton much but there is a LARGE group of Bears fans who frequent the sports bar I hang at and they HATED Orton.

[Dirk]

It's funny, a friend of mine that is a life long Bears fan was touting the praise of Orton last year before his injury. He said that he is going to be something if they could concentrate on building the pieces to his style.

He openly talked about how bad Cutler was and that he was not a franchise type of QB.

Now he says that Denver has got themselves a very decent QB in Orton but "Da Bears" got a better deal.

I think Sanchez is better than Stafford, I still say that Detroit will nab him with the number one pick and it is all a moot point.

[TXBRONC]

It's funny, a friend of mine that is a life long Bears fan was touting the praise of Orton last year before his injury. He said that he is going to be something if they could concentrate on building the pieces to his style.

He openly talked about how bad Cutler was and that he was not a franchise type of QB.

Now he says that Denver has got themselves a very decent QB in Orton but "Da Bears" got a better deal.

I think Sanchez is better than Stafford, I still say that Detroit will nab him with the number one pick and it is all a moot point.

Right now a lot of analysts think that Stafford and Sanchez both will be taken in the top 5.

[Dirk]

Right now a lot of analysts think that Stafford and Sanchez both will be taken in the top 5.

Probably so. And that is fine by me! I hope they are and then McD and Xman can concentrate on the :defense: like they should!

[TXBRONC]

Probably so. And that is fine by me! I hope they are and then McD and Xman can concentrate on the :defense: like they should!

It seems pretty obvious that McDaniels is going to see if Orton or Simms can handle to the job so I don't think he'll try and draft a quarterback in the first round but I wouldn't be surprised if drafts one later on.

[Dirk]

Oh I agree and I think he needs to draft one later on. You always need a QB to be a "project".

[BroncoNut]

Simms would be a good project for McDaniels

[Dirk]

I'm still not sold on Simms. He is where he is simply because of name recognition. I will give him the fact that he is smart and willing, but he is not a starting QB IMO.

[BroncoNut]

I'm still not sold on Simms. He is where he is simply because of name recognition. I will give him the fact that he is smart and willing, but he is not a starting QB IMO.

I was being sarcastic. I don't think many people think much of him as an NFL player. I kinda feel sorry for the guy because he is such a loser

[turftoad]

I'm still not sold on Simms. He is where he is simply because of name recognition. I will give him the fact that he is smart and willing, but he is not a starting QB IMO.

Isn't it a sad state of affairs that he's actually competing for our starting QB job?
Doesn't say a whole hell of a lot for our QB situation.

[CoachChaz]

Any chance we can see what these guys can do with a stellar o-line, good receivers and a QB friendly offense before we judge them?

Last I checked, their previous employers (CHI, TB, TEN) weren't exactly offensive powerhouses with a ton of weapons or protection

[Nomad]

Isn't it a sad state of affairs that he's actually competing for our starting QB job?
Doesn't say a whole hell of a lot for our QB situation.

They may surprise you turf!;) I guess come Sept we'll find out!!

[BroncoNut]

Any chance we can see what these guys can do with a stellar o-line, good receivers and a QB friendly offense before we judge them?

Last I checked, their previous employers (CHI, TB, TEN) weren't exactly offensive powerhouses with a ton of weapons or protection

I fail to see any logic here.

[CoachChaz]

I fail to see any logic here.

I keep forgetting it isnt allowed here. My bad.

[Dirk]

I will be the first one to admit that I am wrong if Simms proves me wrong. Orton I think will outshine Simms.

But if Simms outshines Orton...so be it as long as we are winning!

[topscribe]

Not necessarily at all. It shows that he's willing to use the stop-gap QB for a year or two while we build up other aspects of the team. It means, that of the all the stop-gap QBs we could get, he felt Orton was best for NOW. It does NOT mean that he sees Orton as anything other than a stop-gap QB taht holds the spot until we actually find a franchise quality QB.

Orton has a lot of raw talent. Perhaps McDaniels wants to see whether he can
help to mold that talent into a franchise quality quarterback?

-----

[underrated29]

I like orton and simms. I like them better than a lot of the qbs in the league.

I think either is better than keary collins- who took his team far. or alex.smith,matt ryan (yes i said matt ryan), campbell etc.

I would rate orton right now on par with eli manning. Go ahead flame away, but i personally think Eli is OVERRATED like no other and is a product of the giants team. He might be more refined and polished, but orton hasnt started too many games.

Simms is a wild card. He has lots of potential i think, but doesnt see to put it all together at once.

We will see. Flame away.

[bcbronc]

Eli Manning overrated? doesn't everyone still think he sucks? one fluke catch and a great pass rush doesn't make a good QB.

[BroncoWave]

Eli Manning overrated? doesn't everyone still think he sucks? one fluke catch and a great pass rush doesn't make a good QB.

There are several posters on this board who have tabbed Eli as a "franchise QB". I agree that he sucks but there are several who are blinded by that ring and think that it makes him a great QB.

[EMB6903]

There are several posters on this board who have tabbed Eli as a "franchise QB". I agree that he sucks but there are several who are blinded by that ring and think that it makes him a great QB.

I never said Eli was a great QB.... but he could definately be argued one... the last 4 years hes been the most consistent quarterback in the NFC.

[Lonestar]

Orton has a lot of raw talent. Perhaps McDaniels wants to see whether he can
help to mold that talent into a franchise quality quarterback?

-----

way to logical of a concept for most to get...

Most think you are born a franchise QB with a rocket arm..
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Lonestar]

There are several posters on this board who have tabbed Eli as a "franchise QB". I agree that he sucks but there are several who are blinded by that ring and think that it makes him a great QB.

I think he ia a good QB on a damned fine team.. With a GREAT DL.. that was the ONLY reason they won that game.. IMO.

As for being a Franchise QB for many NEW YAWKERS he is because they have sucked at QB for decades..

Let them be delusional.. Let them be happy with him... remember there are very few great QB's in the NFC.. If they are happy OK by me..

[LoyalSoldier]

At worst it would be one Ad Hominem. However, I liked your grammar and syntax, because they explain why you couldn't put stats into context.

Is that seriously the best comeback you got? Grammar? Your on the internet for crying out loud! Grammar and spelling were banned from it a long time ago.

I can use grammar perfectly, but frankly I don't care to on an internet board. I am not getting graded for this so I am not going to write as if this is an academic paper. I already write more than enough of those anyways.

I made my point, I said for a game manager he doesn't seem to "manage" very well against winning teams. It is interesting that 9 out of 12 of his interception came in key games. I don't believe he has shown to be a "winner" that everyone is making him out to be.

I did also say I was willing to give him a chance except that I am not getting my hopes up for him. I've got nothing against him as a human.

[TXBRONC]

There are several posters on this board who have tabbed Eli as a "franchise QB". I agree that he sucks but there are several who are blinded by that ring and think that it makes him a great QB.

It really doesn't matter if we think he's franchise quarterback or not the Giants do and that's what counts.

[LoyalSoldier]

way to logical of a concept for most to get...

Most think you are born a franchise QB with a rocket arm..
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Bah logic is overrated!

[turftoad]

way to logical of a concept for most to get...

Most think you are born a franchise QB with a rocket arm..
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Elway was..

[Lonestar]

Bah logic is overrated!

perhaps at you house..

[LoyalSoldier]

perhaps at youhouse..

/sarcasm off........:tsk:

[topscribe]

I like orton and simms. I like them better than a lot of the qbs in the league.

I think either is better than keary collins- who took his team far. or alex.smith,matt ryan (yes i said matt ryan), campbell etc.

I would rate orton right now on par with eli manning. Go ahead flame away, but i personally think Eli is OVERRATED like no other and is a product of the giants team. He might be more refined and polished, but orton hasnt started too many games.

Simms is a wild card. He has lots of potential i think, but doesnt see to put it all together at once.

We will see. Flame away.

:mad2:

-----

[Poet]

Doesn't mean anything to me. They were all supportive during the ordeal. I personally want the best PLAYER on the field. So getting the 'nicest' guy really isn't a priority to the needs for a better football team.

The best player does not always make for the best fit. For years and years the best WR in football was either TO or Randy Moss. Brett Farve was one of the best QBs in the NFL during his last year in Green Bay.

Jay Cutler was not as big of a cancer as Moss was, or TO. Honestly, I don't think he was a cancer. The problem is that chemistry does count. The best player may not be the right guy for the job.

[Fan in Exile]

Is that seriously the best comeback you got? Grammar? Your on the internet for crying out loud! Grammar and spelling were banned from it a long time ago.

I can use grammar perfectly, but frankly I don't care to on an internet board. I am not getting graded for this so I am not going to write as if this is an academic paper. I already write more than enough of those anyways.

I made my point, I said for a game manager he doesn't seem to "manage" very well against winning teams. It is interesting that 9 out of 12 of his interception came in key games. I don't believe he has shown to be a "winner" that everyone is making him out to be.

I did also say I was willing to give him a chance except that I am not getting my hopes up for him. I've got nothing against him as a human.


You haven't put the stats in context so you haven't shown anything.

[underrated29]

The best player does not always make for the best fit. For years and years the best WR in football was either TO or Randy Moss. Brett Farve was one of the best QBs in the NFL during his last year in Green Bay.

Jay Cutler was not as big of a cancer as Moss was, or TO. Honestly, I don't think he was a cancer. The problem is that chemistry does count. The best player may not be the right guy for the job.



Good point. Reminds me of the movie Miracle- where the US beat the russians for the gold. What was it coach said- "I'm not looking for the best players. I am looking for the right players."


The right guys to fight his scheme, his style of play sure worked out pretty well for them.

[LoyalSoldier]

You haven't put the stats in context so you haven't shown anything.

You mean I haven't put them in context that supports your views. What context would you like? Do tell me since you refuse to admit that the stats are currently showing Orton struggled against good teams.

The stats are what they are.

[Gamechanger]

*sigh* i'd hate to see if you guys are losing, this forum will die a deadly death

[underrated29]

that the stats are currently showing Orton struggled against good teams.

The stats are what they are.


Yes, but as coach alluded to earlier. You should infact struggle against better teams.

Real life ex. My hockey team was in the playoffs. I led the league in scoring and points during the playoffs. The first few teams we played sucked (big time,lol) and i was averaging 4 pts per game. So anywhere between 2-3 goals and 2-3 assists.
As we progressed further into the playoffs. My stats started to go down as we faced better competition. By the time we were playing the top 2 teams i was down to 2.33 points per game. 1-2 goals and or 1-2 assists. of course this was due to better defense and goalies that i was facing as well as better offensive talent keeping me from being in their zone for all my shifts. The last game we played i only had 1 goal and 0 assists- We lost in the conference championship game. It doesnt mean i suck, or the greatist, it just means that when my team and i face lesser talent we do good and drop off when we play better talent.

So understandably ortons numbers were worse. As long as they werent abysmal then its probably ok. Crush the crappy teams, try beat the good ones. Thats about the best you can do.

[LoyalSoldier]

Yes, but as coach alluded to earlier. You should infact struggle against better teams.

Real life ex. My hockey team was in the playoffs. I led the league in scoring and points during the playoffs. The first few teams we played sucked (big time,lol) and i was averaging 4 pts per game. So anywhere between 2-3 goals and 2-3 assists.
As we progressed further into the playoffs. My stats started to go down as we faced better competition. By the time we were playing the top 2 teams i was down to 2.33 points per game. 1-2 goals and or 1-2 assists. of course this was due to better defense and goalies that i was facing as well as better offensive talent keeping me from being in their zone for all my shifts. The last game we played i only had 1 goal and 0 assists- We lost in the conference championship game. It doesnt mean i suck, or the greatist, it just means that when my team and i face lesser talent we do good and drop off when we play better talent.

So understandably ortons numbers were worse. As long as they werent abysmal then its probably ok. Crush the crappy teams, try beat the good ones. Thats about the best you can do.

There is struggling and then there is being limited. Orton struggled.

Great QBs may not throw for 300 yards and 4 TD against the Steelers defense, but at the same time they minimize horrendous mistakes. Orton had 14 of his 16 turnovers against winning teams and the sad part is not all of them had good defenses. NO's defense was horrendous and he turned the ball over 3 times. Orton had his good games against the Viks the first time and against the Falcons but outside of that he was, well, average. Now while one can blame it on his injury, that also means we have to throw out his good games after the injury as well.

Two turnovers or more is above any defense's average per game for the season.

[TXBRONC]

Yes, but as coach alluded to earlier. You should infact struggle against better teams.

Real life ex. My hockey team was in the playoffs. I led the league in scoring and points during the playoffs. The first few teams we played sucked (big time,lol) and i was averaging 4 pts per game. So anywhere between 2-3 goals and 2-3 assists.
As we progressed further into the playoffs. My stats started to go down as we faced better competition. By the time we were playing the top 2 teams i was down to 2.33 points per game. 1-2 goals and or 1-2 assists. of course this was due to better defense and goalies that i was facing as well as better offensive talent keeping me from being in their zone for all my shifts. The last game we played i only had 1 goal and 0 assists- We lost in the conference championship game. It doesnt mean i suck, or the greatist, it just means that when my team and i face lesser talent we do good and drop off when we play better talent.

So understandably ortons numbers were worse. As long as they werent abysmal then its probably ok. Crush the crappy teams, try beat the good ones. Thats about the best you can do.

Cutler played very well against the better teams.

[rcsodak]

I am not doubting his character or work ethic, I am doubting is ability to play at a high enough level. Some people with amazing good work ethic and brains fail to be great NFL players, but sometimes they move on to be amazing coaches because of those skill sets.

It is a matter of show me what you got. If Orton can be the QB we all hope he can be I'll be happy, but I am not getting my expectations up for a QB who has yet to break an 80 passer rating for a season.

Well, then don't look too closely at cut-n-run'ers situational stats, then....
http://www.nfl.com/players/jaycutler/situationalstats?id=CUT288111

When behind......70's
3rd QTR............70's
Inside Opp 20.....70's
20 Attempts +....low 80's

Last 3 games of '08, when all that was needed was 1 win.....


...... 70's

[LoyalSoldier]

Well, then don't look too closely at cut-n-run'ers situational stats, then....
http://www.nfl.com/players/jaycutler/situationalstats?id=CUT288111

When behind......70's
3rd QTR............70's
Inside Opp 20.....70's
20 Attempts +....low 80's

Last 3 games of '08, when all that was needed was 1 win.....


...... 70's

Ok so what? Cutler's in Chicago as all the Orton supporters keep pointing out. I am talking about Orton who

IS A BRONCO

[BroncoWave]

Ok so what? Cutler's in Chicago as all the Orton supporters keep pointing out. I am talking about Orton who

IS A BRONCO

Agreed. And if it was straight up Orton for the player, it would be a valid argument. But seeing as we also got 3 great draft picks out of the deal, Orton doesn't have to to the same things the player did just as long as at least 2 of those picks turn out to be pretty good.

[rcsodak]

If I hadn't compiled the stats myself a while back I may have believed that.
Sorry, but that doesn't explain the story.

He racked up the TDs against terrible teams like the lions and those 4 interceptions came in critical games against winning teams. He was mediocre against Tampa, Phily, and Carolina. I did this chart a while back. In fact he was so mediocre against winning teams that he only had one extra TD over turnovers.


http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/1947/kyleortonwinningteams.png

Like I said, I really hope he proves me wrong, but I just don't see him as the QB we need to win.

Hey, LS....question....

How did your cut-n-run'er do, against the "mediocre" KC/OAK, the last 3yrs?

Didn't he lead the team to KC's first victory last year? OAK's 2nd?

[BeefStew25]

Hey, LS....question....

How did your cut-n-run'er do, against the "mediocre" KC/OAK, the last 3yrs?

Didn't he lead the team to KC's first victory last year? OAK's 2nd?

Dude, if you like Cutler that much, become a Bears fan like me.

[TXBRONC]

Agreed. And if it was straight up Orton for the player, it would be a valid argument. But seeing as we also got 3 great draft picks out of the deal, Orton doesn't have to to the same things the player did just as long as at least 2 of those picks turn out to be pretty good.

It's hard say if they are great picks or not since we don't how those picks will turn out.

[rcsodak]

Ok so what? Cutler's in Chicago as all the Orton supporters keep pointing out. I am talking about Orton who

IS A BRONCO

DUH!

But you brought up your not wanting to put faith into "a QB who has yet to break an 80 passer rating for a season", which opens up a nice little can of worms....

Ya'll were so enamored by whiney-boi, that you couldn't see he was nothing more than a strong-armed Griese.

They say you can tell alot about a player, by simply looking at their eyes.

Maybe somebody should slap cutty awake. :coffee:

[underrated29]

Two turnovers or more is above any defense's average per game for the season.



TRUE!


But, and i am just throwing it out there. Niether for nor against, but last year? or two years ago Peyton Manning- who is top 1-2 in the NFL threw 6 INTS vs the BOLTS in one game. I dont think it was playoffs? Cant remember that either.

I remember because i had manning in my FF and i lost because all those effing INTS he threw.

[TXBRONC]

TRUE!


But, and i am just throwing it out there. Niether for nor against, but last year? or two years ago Peyton Manning- who is top 1-2 in the NFL threw 6 INTS vs the BOLTS in one game. I dont think it was playoffs? Cant remember that either.

I remember because i had manning in my FF and i lost because all those effing INTS he threw.

The game you're talking about was a regular season game.

[underrated29]

The game you're talking about was a regular season game.

I hated that game!:tsk:

[LoyalSoldier]

DUH!

But you brought up your not wanting to put faith into "a QB who has yet to break an 80 passer rating for a season", which opens up a nice little can of worms....

Ya'll were so enamored by whiney-boi, that you couldn't see he was nothing more than a strong-armed Griese.

They say you can tell alot about a player, by simply looking at their eyes.

Maybe somebody should slap cutty awake. :coffee:

To me it seems like you are the one who can't get over Cutler. You spare no expense to bash him.


Hey, LS....question....

How did your cut-n-run'er do, against the "mediocre" KC/OAK, the last 3yrs?

Didn't he lead the team to KC's first victory last year? OAK's 2nd? Yes that was our problem that we couldn't win against those teams, but that has been the bane of the Broncos for the last 8 years not just last year. If you really want to talk about the first KC. Tell me, who turned the ball over first? Royal, Marshall, or Cutler? I'll give you a hint, the answer isn't 3.

Our whole offense had turnover issues last year, it was not exclusive to Cutler. Between Scheffler (Goal line fumble), Royal (Bad fumble at KC), Marshall (lead in the NFL in fumbles by a WR and 2nd in fumbles lost), Hall (Two fumbles against NE), and yes Cutler (too many ints) the offense was giving the ball away too much.

But once again. CUTLER IS NO LONGER A BRONCO SO GET OVER IT!

[LoyalSoldier]

TRUE!


But, and i am just throwing it out there. Niether for nor against, but last year? or two years ago Peyton Manning- who is top 1-2 in the NFL threw 6 INTS vs the BOLTS in one game. I dont think it was playoffs? Cant remember that either.

I remember because i had manning in my FF and i lost because all those effing INTS he threw.

That was a couple of seasons ago. Yes every QB is allowed a bad game especially against a good team, but still a QB is judged by how often they have a bad game.

[rcsodak]

There is struggling and then there is being limited. Orton struggled.

Great QBs may not throw for 300 yards and 4 TD against the Steelers defense, but at the same time they minimize horrendous mistakes. Orton had 14 of his 16 turnovers against winning teams and the sad part is not all of them had good defenses. NO's defense was horrendous and he turned the ball over 3 times. Orton had his good games against the Viks the first time and against the Falcons but outside of that he was, well, average. Now while one can blame it on his injury, that also means we have to throw out his good games after the injury as well.

Two turnovers or more is above any defense's average per game for the season.

A lawyer once was quoted as saying the key to winning an argument, is to know answers before you ask them.

In this case, LS, you should know how your qb does, when compared in kind.


Comp Att Pct Yds Avg TD Int Sck SckY Rate FUM Lost
vs KC 29 49 59.2 361 7.4 1 2 1 9 71.9 1 0

vs OAK 16 37 43.2 204 5.5 0 1 0 0 49.8 1 1

[rcsodak]

To me it seems like you are the one who can't get over Cutler. You spare no expense to bash him.

Yes that was our problem that we couldn't win against those teams, but that has been the bane of the Broncos for the last 8 years not just last year. If you really want to talk about the first KC. Tell me, who turned the ball over first? Royal, Marshall, or Cutler? I'll give you a hint, the answer isn't 3.

Our whole offense had turnover issues last year, it was not exclusive to Cutler. Between Scheffler (Goal line fumble), Royal (Bad fumble at KC), Marshall (lead in the NFL in fumbles by a WR and 2nd in fumbles lost), Hall (Two fumbles against NE), and yes Cutler (too many ints) the offense was giving the ball away too much.

But once again. CUTLER IS NO LONGER A BRONCO SO GET OVER IT!

LMAO... HE IS??????

Frankly, ya'll make it way tooo easy for us realists. You fawn so much for cutty, that all of his shit plays are erased from your memories, and all that's ever recounted is how many times he brought the team back, or how many wins were stolen from him because of the lack of defense....blah blah

All we have to do is show the FACTS about his piss-poor play.

"just the facts, ma'am". Dragnet

[LoyalSoldier]

LMAO... HE IS??????

Frankly, ya'll make it way tooo easy for us realists. You fawn so much for cutty, that all of his shit plays are erased from your memories, and all that's ever recounted is how many times he brought the team back, or how many wins were stolen from him because of the lack of defense....blah blah

All we have to do is show the FACTS about his piss-poor play.

"just the facts, ma'am". Dragnet

*sigh* You didn't even read the post or you read into it. Because you are just making nonsensical rambling now.

I haven't brought Cutler into this thread once unless someone else did. Yet you can't seem to do anything except drag him into it. I AM TALKING ABOUT ORTON!


A lawyer once was quoted as saying the key to winning an argument, is to know answers before you ask them.

In this case, LS, you should know how your qb does, when compared in kind.


Comp Att Pct Yds Avg TD Int Sck SckY Rate FUM Lost
vs KC 29 49 59.2 361 7.4 1 2 1 9 71.9 1 0

vs OAK 16 37 43.2 204 5.5 0 1 0 0 49.8 1 1


Honestly you are obsessed with Cutler! I've accepted the fact he is gone. You are acting like an ex-girlfriend in a bad break up. Your irrational!

Let me spell it out for you

CUTLER IS GONE!
ORTON IS NOW A BRONCO!

I don't give a damn about Cutler any more and if you keep dragging him into an ORTON discussion I am putting you on to ignore. I am questioning Orton's ability to play in the NFL not how Cutler did compared to Orton.

[BroncoWave]

It's hard say if they are great picks or not since we don't how those picks will turn out.

True, but my point is that if one or 2 of the picks turn out to be solid starters or Pro Bowlers, then Orton doesn't have to be an absolute stud for it to have been a good trade for us. Now if all of the picks we got from them are busts, Orton better be a Pro Bowler.

[LoyalSoldier]

True, but my point is that if one or 2 of the picks turn out to be solid starters or Pro Bowlers, then Orton doesn't have to be an absolute stud for it to have been a good trade for us. Now if all of the picks we got from them are busts, Orton better be a Pro Bowler.

My only concern is that we have a rookie in the front office. I just know they better not screw this up. Many teams would love to have these kinds of draft picks.