Grade the O-line.

[Bullgator]

I think now that all the eggs are in one basket with manning, Denver better have a probowl caliber line to protect him. We all saw what happened to the mighty Colts without Manning.

Clady and Franklin are pretty impressive. Franklin is a bit green but he may be the most athletic... the rest seem suspect to me. FA? Draft? Who do you like?

IMO this is the key to your season folks... the difference between double digit wins and a bitter, bitter season filled with second guesses and pissed off fans.

Draft: Clearly Riley Reiff from Iowa is the best but will go too high for Denver to trade up... but Cordy Glenn or Mike Adams are right around 23-26 and should take priority over defensive picks.

FA: What ever happened with Saturday? That would be HUGE. Pay the man do what it takes because his ass has Mannings handprint on it. That chemistry is invaluable. This would allow Denver to pick D in the first round.

Make no mistake that protecting Manning is more important than D because A)Manning can outscore the opposition and B) Fox is pretty damn good at managing the Game anyway...he always has a respectable D.

[Northman]

Championship

[CoachChaz]

This isnt the 30 year old version of Manning. Keeping him alive is important, but we can expect him to put up 30 every week. Shootouts against teams like the Saints, Pats, etc will end badly. Gotta stop someone eventually

[MOtorboat]

For the Jets?

[SOCALORADO.]

I would be more worried about that suspect line the Jets have if i was you.

[WARHORSE]

I think now that all the eggs are in one basket with manning, Denver better have a probowl caliber line to protect him. We all saw what happened to the mighty Colts without Manning.

Clady and Franklin are pretty impressive. Franklin is a bit green but he may be the most athletic... the rest seem suspect to me. FA? Draft? Who do you like?

IMO this is the key to your season folks... the difference between double digit wins and a bitter, bitter season filled with second guesses and pissed off fans.

Draft: Clearly Riley Reiff from Iowa is the best but will go too high for Denver to trade up... but Cordy Glenn or Mike Adams are right around 23-26 and should take priority over defensive picks.

FA: What ever happened with Saturday? That would be HUGE. Pay the man do what it takes because his ass has Mannings handprint on it. That chemistry is invaluable. This would allow Denver to pick D in the first round.

Make no mistake that protecting Manning is more important than D because A)Manning can outscore the opposition and B) Fox is pretty damn good at managing the Game anyway...he always has a respectable D.


Youre talking to B R O N C O S fans Bull.......not Tebow fans.


Manning makes the line better.

Trust me.

[swaiy]

You know what's funny? He didn't mention the guy one time and you guys couldn't help yourselves lol. I thought Bull was supposed to be the obsessed one?

Anyway, I think the OL will be fine. They will have the privilege of blocking for a shorter amount of time. Clady may return to his former self I hope. Franklin doesn't seem to bad. I really think he just need experience. He was getting beat by pure technique sometimes. He could probably learn to piece together his footwork and strength. He could be pretty good. Kupe is Kupe. He's the man. I hope he comes back healthy. I'm worried about Walton having Manning behind his back calling out signals like he's leading a marching band. He is going to need some work.

[jhildebrand]

the rest seem suspect to me.

3/5ths of the line is fine-Clady, Kuper, Franklin.

Walton doesn't worry me as much as Beadles.



Draft: Clearly Riley Reiff from Iowa is the best but will go too high for Denver to trade up... but Cordy Glenn or Mike Adams are right around 23-26 and should take priority over defensive picks.

I said before denver got Manning that if they did their draft perspective will change to OL in the 1st and hope a DL falls to them the way the Clemson kid did a few years ago.



Make no mistake that protecting Manning is more important than D because A)Manning can outscore the opposition and B) Fox is pretty damn good at managing the Game anyway...he always has a respectable D.

Del Rio should beast mode as a DC. Fox can focus on the D, too. Let Manning run the O and games as he sees fit.


By the way, don't be a doosh. If you don't like bull or his posts keep the F out. At least don't act like children. Damn.

[vandammage13]

I'll oblige to the OP's question...It is a legitimate concern, afterall...

I'll just look at it from a pass protection angle, because I feel the O-Line did a pretty good job at run blocking across the board.

Clady - I've said this before and I'll say it again....CLADY IS NO LONGER AN ELITE LT...not sure if it was due to the off-season knee injury prior to 2010 or not, but Clady has not been the bookend protector the last couple of years that he once was. He's still a good, reliable LT, but hardly in the argument for best LT in the NFL anymore. The guy had a lot of holding penalties last year (even when Orton was still the QB) and to me that says he's lost a step and has to resort to grabbing DE's at times because he can no longer keep up with them as well.

Kuper - He turned into our best lineman last year. However, that broken leg was a pretty gruesome injury and who knows if he'll fully recover from it by season's start. If he can, then we are set there, but he's still a question mark IMO.

Walton - Probably not quite as bad as some people make him out to be, but he's hardly a good pass blocker. I thought he improved a lot overall compared to his rookie year, but we could definitely use an upgrade here. Walton is probably best served as a backup for solid depth.

Beadles - Kind of the same feelings with him as I had for Walton...Saw some improvement with him, but his ceiling appears to be pretty low. He's a bit smallish and I saw him just simply get bull rushed into the backfield more than I would like. Backup material IMO.

Franklin - Maybe things will get easier for him now that he's not protecting the QB's blindside, but he had a rough time pass blocking last year. I see tons of upside with him and I think he'll improve with experience. Many have suggested that he would be better served moving inside, but I feel he can pan out and become a very good RT....Unfortunately with Manning's age, we can no longer afford for Franklin to learn on the job...He's got to get where he needs to be this offseason.

With Manning, the line's going to have to do a better job at pass blocking than they did last year. We aren't going to be the mauling 3 yards and a cloud of dust team we were last year. Major improvements are needed and the line will have to be addressed through the draft as most of the solid FA Lineman are already gone.

[vandammage13]

I think now that all the eggs are in one basket with manning, Denver better have a probowl caliber line to protect him. We all saw what happened to the mighty Colts without Manning.

Clady and Franklin are pretty impressive. Franklin is a bit green but he may be the most athletic... the rest seem suspect to me. FA? Draft? Who do you like?

IMO this is the key to your season folks... the difference between double digit wins and a bitter, bitter season filled with second guesses and pissed off fans.

Draft: Clearly Riley Reiff from Iowa is the best but will go too high for Denver to trade up... but Cordy Glenn or Mike Adams are right around 23-26 and should take priority over defensive picks.

FA: What ever happened with Saturday? That would be HUGE. Pay the man do what it takes because his ass has Mannings handprint on it. That chemistry is invaluable. This would allow Denver to pick D in the first round.Make no mistake that protecting Manning is more important than D because A)Manning can outscore the opposition and B) Fox is pretty damn good at managing the Game anyway...he always has a respectable D.

Saturday went to the Packers...

[GEM]

Jesus Crimeny....the guy starts a thread where he doesn't mention Tebow, he talks Broncos, he asks questions that have merit and some just can't knock off the shit. And some of ya'll call him a troll. :tsk:

[ShooterJM]

Youre talking to B R O N C O S fans Bull.......not Tebow fans.


Manning makes the line better.

Trust me.

Alright, I'll bite. How does a QB make a lineman pass block better?

[MOtorboat]

Alright, I'll bite. How does a QB make a lineman pass block better?

Line audibles, blitz recognition, play shifts, hot reads, footwork and quick release.

[Cugel]

First Point: Manning.

You can't fool Manning and you can't blitz him. If he sees a blitz coming he will hit the hot read every single time. And he's seen everything any defense may try hundreds of times, so trying to disguise coverages doesn't work either.

Defenses had to learn the hard way that the only way to defend against Manning is to have a strong penetration right up the middle of the line and blanket his underneath receivers so he has no place to throw the ball. Then he has to throw it away.

This is relevant because it greatly affects the OL play.



Clady - I've said this before and I'll say it again....CLADY IS NO LONGER AN ELITE LT...not sure if it was due to the off-season knee injury prior to 2010 or not, but Clady has not been the bookend protector the last couple of years that he once was. He's still a good, reliable LT, but hardly in the argument for best LT in the NFL anymore. The guy had a lot of holding penalties last year (even when Orton was still the QB) and to me that says he's lost a step and has to resort to grabbing DE's at times because he can no longer keep up with them as well.

It remains to be seen whether Clady can return to the form he had before his injury. One thing hasn't helped -- the Broncos drafted him to be a zone blocking LT, because he had tremendous agility. Changing the type of blocking scheme every single year certainly hasn't helped his development. Going back to a system he feels comfortable with will help. Having a QB who can recognize blitzes, and check out of bad plays will help him immeasurably as it will the entire line.


Kuper - He turned into our best lineman last year. However, that broken leg was a pretty gruesome injury and who knows if he'll fully recover from it by season's start. If he can, then we are set there, but he's still a question mark IMO.

Agreed. Injury aside, Kuper is a solid dependable lineman.


Walton - Probably not quite as bad as some people make him out to be, but he's hardly a good pass blocker. I thought he improved a lot overall compared to his rookie year, but we could definitely use an upgrade here. Walton is probably best served as a backup for solid depth.

This is a HUGE problem. Some experts rated Walton as the WORST starting C in the NFL last season. And teams that want to blitz can only do it right up the middle. Going at Manning around the edges is worthless because he will get rid of the ball before the pass-rusher can get there. Defenses are going to try and attack Manning RIGHT OVER WALTON.

And if he can't pass-protect any better than he did last year he's going to get Manning hurt. But where can they find someone better? Not signing Saturday was a mistake. He said he felt the Broncos weren't "as interested" in him as other teams. A rookie C can't be a starter and be effective. All the good FAs are gone. There aren't a lot of options out there.

Probably their best chance is if someone like a Casey Weigman is released by their team this summer. But that's a crap-shoot. Even if they use their #1 pick on a C (unlikely) the rookie is not going to be particularly good to start the season. And Manning doesn't have a lot of time left!


Beadles - Kind of the same feelings with him as I had for Walton...Saw some improvement with him, but his ceiling appears to be pretty low. He's a bit smallish and I saw him just simply get bull rushed into the backfield more than I would like. Backup material IMO.

Beadles needs to be replaced by 2 better players. He's just not strong enough to be very effective.


Franklin - Maybe things will get easier for him now that he's not protecting the QB's blindside, but he had a rough time pass blocking last year. I see tons of upside with him and I think he'll improve with experience. Many have suggested that he would be better served moving inside, but I feel he can pan out and become a very good RT....Unfortunately with Manning's age, we can no longer afford for Franklin to learn on the job...He's got to get where he needs to be this offseason.

This is another problem. Franklin was drafted to be a run-blocker and he's a huge guy who can stop bull rushers. Problem is he's not able to move with faster pass-rushers. He lacks agility. Hopefully Manning getting rid of the ball quicker will help him, but Franklin has a long way to go to be any good at pass-blocking. I'd like to see them move him inside to G, but I don't see any better options at RT unless they use their #1 pick to grab someone. If they could move Franklin over and take Beadles' place while replacing Franklin at RT with someone good that would be ideal.

[TheReverend]

In between D and C

Hopefully Peyton's strengths mask chunks of the deficiencies and accentuate some of their strengths and make them function like a solid B. He definitely did that for his Indy lines.

[BigDaddyBronco]

Alright, I'll bite. How does a QB make a lineman pass block better?

It doesn't make it better, just less important.

[Cugel]

Quote Originally Posted by ShooterJM View Post
Alright, I'll bite. How does a QB make a lineman pass block better?

Here are the ways:

#1 -- Manning recognizes blitzes and coverages. He goes to the hot read and beats the blitz. He checks out of plays that won't work to ones that will work against the coverage the defense has on the field. He's not fooled by disguised coverages.

#2 -- Manning gets rid of the ball quickly and is almost always on target. It's tough to rush him effectively. Virtually the only way is to get a push straight up the middle and get in his face before he can throw, and at the same time blanket his underneath WRs so he has no outlet and has to throw the ball away.

#3 -- The combination of #1 and #2 means the OL doesn't have to hold their blocks as long as they did with Tebow or Orton. And they're rarely stuck with a play that won't work, because Manning will check out of that play to something that WILL work against that particular defense. He's virtually like having an Offensive Coordinator out on the field calling plays in real time.

#4 -- The hurry up offense Manning runs puts enormous pressure on the defense because it denies them the opportunity to make substitutions. They can't bring in extra pass-rushers on 3rd down because Manning will see them trying to get players on the field, hustle to the line and call a play, catching them with too many men on the field for a penalty or with their defenders out of position.

That helps the OL too because the pass-rushers get winded and worn down from being on the field all the time.

[Jsteve01]

I agree with everything you said Cuge. Which is exactly the reason Im scare. OUr worst pass blockers are right up the gut at LG and C

[topscribe]

Jesus Crimeny....the guy starts a thread where he doesn't mention Tebow, he talks Broncos, he asks questions that have merit and some just can't knock off the shit. And some of ya'll call him a troll. :tsk:
Well, I have to give him credit for a good topic.

But he's still a troll . . . :coffee:

[ShooterJM]

Line audibles, blitz recognition, play shifts, hot reads, footwork and quick release.

None of which actually help the line block. Though I'm not discounting the fact that it helps mitigate their lack of blocking. I may be remembering wrong, but I don't recall us being blitzed much last year, yet we were still forced into max protect to block 4. (Anyone have the numbers on that?)

I do think Manning will be far better in the event opponents do blitz, but O line shifts are generally handled by the center (which is why I was really hoping we'd get one during FA).

[topscribe]

I personally don't like Franklin at RT. Good run blocker, but not quick enough feet for pass blocking out on a tackle's island, IMO.

Clady has not been as good as originally. But even a subpar Clady is better than most LTs. He should be better this year, however.

Kuper is Kuper. Not a HOFer, but dependable and rock solid. Quintessential blue collar excellence.

Walton is improving. I believe he will do well this year.

Beadles needs to be replaced, IMO . . . with Franklin.

Harris needs to reclaim his old spot at RT.

Give then a B- for last year, up from a C because of the running game. Expect B+ this year, IMO . . .

[ShooterJM]

It's tough to rush him effectively. Virtually the only way is to get a push straight up the middle and get in his face before he can throw, and at the same time blanket his underneath WRs so he has no outlet and has to throw the ball away.

That's what terrifies me when I think about our line.

[topscribe]

None of which actually help the line block. Though I'm not discounting the fact that it helps mitigate their lack of blocking. I may be remembering wrong, but I don't recall us being blitzed much last year, yet we were still forced into max protect to block 4. (Anyone have the numbers on that?)

I do think Manning will be far better in the event opponents do blitz, but O line shifts are generally handled by the center (which is why I was really hoping we'd get one during FA).
Manning's attibutes as MO listed them won't help the line to block.

But it will help them in their blocking, if you can see the difference . . .

[Joel]

Generally, I agree with Cugel and van, and with tops hopes Harris can replace Franklin at RT, though whether his back is up to a seasons worth of starts is among the many questions. Kuper's never been spectacular but always been solid; it remains to be seen whether he can come back from his devastating injury. I'm hoping Clady held on nearly every other down last year because the leg he banged up early never fully recovered, and that he'll be back to his old self this season, but, again, it's impossible to know before Labor Day.

The only things that ARE known are worrisome: Walton and Beadles are still awful after 34 starts, and Franklin looked like the rookie he was last year. It's true Manning has better field vision, recognition and release time than our last QB; it's also true he's about as mobile as the Rock of Gibraltar, but not nearly as invulnerable. As noted elsewhere, I'll count this season a win if he finishes every game, but don't expect him to find many hot reads with choices like Decker, Fells and Rosario (who, along with double-covered Thomas, are the receivers I LIKE.)

When I know whether injuries will continue hobbling our only two good linemen, and whether Franklin is over the rookie learning curve, I can rate the line (Beadles and Walton will still be wretched starters though; after 34 starts, they're as good as they're going to be.) Until then, I can only make worried guesses.

[Cugel]

None of which actually help the line block. Though I'm not discounting the fact that it helps mitigate their lack of blocking. I may be remembering wrong, but I don't recall us being blitzed much last year, yet we were still forced into max protect to block 4. (Anyone have the numbers on that?)

I do think Manning will be far better in the event opponents do blitz, but O line shifts are generally handled by the center (which is why I was really hoping we'd get one during FA).

C is still a weakness, but. . .

During the early 2000's teams tried to blitz Manning. They tried disguised blitzes, late blitzes, stunts, every thing they could throw at him and none of it worked. He would almost always recognize what the defense was doing and go to the hot read immediately or check out of one play and go to another at the line.

He would burn them almost every time. Defensive Coordinators eventually gave up trying to beat him that way because it wasn't working. They realized that direct pressure right up the middle was the best way to defend against him.

That and having a strong offense to keep him on the sideline and keep him from getting a big lead on their team.

But, many teams don't have elite DTs to be able to consistently get inside pressure. Not everybody is stacked with DL like the NYG. A team like the Broncos for instance knows perfectly well how to beat Phillip Rivers, but since they don't have the players to get pressure in his face, it's worthless info.

Same thing with Manning. Not everybody is going to be able to stop him. Some teams are just going to be burned. A lot of teams in fact.

[Cugel]

None of which actually help the line block. Though I'm not discounting the fact that it helps mitigate their lack of blocking. I may be remembering wrong, but I don't recall us being blitzed much last year, yet we were still forced into max protect to block 4. (Anyone have the numbers on that?)

I do think Manning will be far better in the event opponents do blitz, but O line shifts are generally handled by the center (which is why I was really hoping we'd get one during FA).

C is still a weakness, but. . .

During the early 2000's teams tried to blitz Manning. They tried disguised blitzes, late blitzes, stunts, every thing they could throw at him and none of it worked. He would almost always recognize what the defense was doing and go to the hot read immediately or check out of one play and go to another at the line.

He would burn them almost every time. Defensive Coordinators eventually gave up trying to beat him that way because it wasn't working. They realized that direct pressure right up the middle was the best way to defend against him.

That and having a strong offense to keep him on the sideline and keep him from getting a big lead on their team.

But, many teams don't have elite DTs to be able to consistently get inside pressure with 4 men. Not everybody is stacked with DL like the NYG. A team like the Broncos for instance knows perfectly well how to beat Phillip Rivers, but since they don't have the players to get pressure in his face, it's worthless info. He likes to be able to step up into a clear throwing lane and isn't nearly as effective if he can't. But, what good is that knowledge if you can't do it?

Same thing with Manning. Not everybody is going to be able to stop him. Some teams are just going to be burned. A lot of teams in fact. Blitzing with 5 or 6 leaves somebody open uncovered in the secondary. And Manning will find that guy.

[Bullgator]

Youre talking to B R O N C O S fans Bull.......not Tebow fans.


Manning makes the line better.

Trust me.

Yea I wasn't aware that Manning cloned 6-6 330 versions of himself to block for himself.

[topscribe]

Yea I wasn't aware that Manning cloned 6-6 330 versions of himself to block for himself.

Here you go. You must have missed these (below):



Line audibles, blitz recognition, play shifts, hot reads, footwork and quick release.


Here are the ways:

#1 -- Manning recognizes blitzes and coverages. He goes to the hot read and beats the blitz. He checks out of plays that won't work to ones that will work against the coverage the defense has on the field. He's not fooled by disguised coverages.

#2 -- Manning gets rid of the ball quickly and is almost always on target. It's tough to rush him effectively. Virtually the only way is to get a push straight up the middle and get in his face before he can throw, and at the same time blanket his underneath WRs so he has no outlet and has to throw the ball away.

#3 -- The combination of #1 and #2 means the OL doesn't have to hold their blocks as long as they did with Tebow or Orton. And they're rarely stuck with a play that won't work, because Manning will check out of that play to something that WILL work against that particular defense. He's virtually like having an Offensive Coordinator out on the field calling plays in real time.

#4 -- The hurry up offense Manning runs puts enormous pressure on the defense because it denies them the opportunity to make substitutions. They can't bring in extra pass-rushers on 3rd down because Manning will see them trying to get players on the field, hustle to the line and call a play, catching them with too many men on the field for a penalty or with their defenders out of position.

That helps the OL too because the pass-rushers get winded and worn down from being on the field all the time.

[Bullgator]

Here you go. You must have missed these (below):

That makes their jobs easier... that masks their deficiencies but that will not help Franklin avoid getting beat by technique. That won't help Beadles when he's bull rushed.

Don't kid yourselves, manning is an epic general but he will get hit ALOT if the line does not improve fast. Will he hold on to the ball too long? no not really, will he pick the blitz and force more base coverage? yea... But can the Oline hold thier own 1-1 vs the better lines in the league? hell no. One good hit and its all over cept the crying.

I still say sell the farm and upgrade the Oline...

[Ravage!!!]

That makes their jobs easier... that masks their deficiencies but that will not help Franklin avoid getting beat by technique. That won't help Beadles when he's bull rushed.

Don't kid yourselves, manning is an epic general but he will get hit ALOT if the line does not improve fast. Will he hold on to the ball too long? no not really, will he pick the blitz and force more base coverage? yea... But can the Oline hold thier own 1-1 vs the better lines in the league? hell no. One good hit and its all over cept the crying.

I still say sell the farm and upgrade the Oline...

You just contradicted everything presented to you, and said you understood, then turned around and ignored everything you just said you understood. If the QB makes the OL's job easier, then they have an easier task to accomplish... thus making them better at accomplishing their task...or certainly more likely to accomplish the given EASIER job. To say that "Manning is going to get hit a LOT (it's two words btw)" isn't taking into the fact that Manning puts the blocking schemes, protections, recognitions, shifts and RBs in the right place. Thats a HUGE huge difference maker. Peyton has had worse OL's than what we have. He went to a Super Bowl with a rookie LT, that turned out to not be very good.

We saw the difference in what a QB can do the moment Cutler left. We had what was considered to be the best OL in the NFL. The next season, with Orton behind center... that dropped DRAMATICALLY. Now I know some of you are going to say "but that was the scheme change." Ok, and it's the QB that is going to put the "scheme" into its best motion while on the field.

A good QB makes EVERYONE's job easier. He doesn't have to have pro-bowl OL across the board to get the job done. THats why some QBs are much better than others. Manning is nearly a clone of Marino. Marino was famous for his ability to get rid of the ball, and NOT be sacked despite his near inability to run. Shifting within the pocket is MUCH easier on the OL, and keeps the QB standing up.

There is NO reason to believe that Manning is going to get the kind of pressure that our QB of last year did, because Manning actually understands reading defenses.... AND...the opposing defense will respect Peytons' ability to beat them with his arm. HUGE HUGE difference.

[Bullgator]

You just contradicted everything presented to you, and said you understood, then turned around and ignored everything you just said you understood. If the QB makes the OL's job easier, then they have an easier task to accomplish... thus making them better at accomplishing their task...or certainly more likely to accomplish the given EASIER job. To say that "Manning is going to get hit a LOT (it's two words btw)" isn't taking into the fact that Manning puts the blocking schemes, protections, recognitions, shifts and RBs in the right place. Thats a HUGE huge difference maker. Peyton has had worse OL's than what we have. He went to a Super Bowl with a rookie LT, that turned out to not be very good.

We saw the difference in what a QB can do the moment Cutler left. We had what was considered to be the best OL in the NFL. The next season, with Orton behind center... that dropped DRAMATICALLY. Now I know some of you are going to say "but that was the scheme change." Ok, and it's the QB that is going to put the "scheme" into its best motion while on the field.

A good QB makes EVERYONE's job easier. He doesn't have to have pro-bowl OL across the board to get the job done. THats why some QBs are much better than others. Manning is nearly a clone of Marino. Marino was famous for his ability to get rid of the ball, and NOT be sacked despite his near inability to run. Shifting within the pocket is MUCH easier on the OL, and keeps the QB standing up.

There is NO reason to believe that Manning is going to get the kind of pressure that our QB of last year did, because Manning actually understands reading defenses.... AND...the opposing defense will respect Peytons' ability to beat them with his arm. HUGE HUGE difference.


The point is you have ALL YOUR HOPE in a 37 year old with NECK PROBLEMS. Sell your ******* house and upgrade your Oline and protect him at ALL COSTS.

Its great he can do those things but in the end he cannot block for them.

I dont care that he can ease some pressure with the presnap calls and what have you. He and you cant afford to get hurt period...

Make this your sig, mark my words and the whole 9.... IF the line does not improve personnel wise manning wont finish the season.

[MOtorboat]

He doesn't have a bad neck. He had a nerve problem which required surgery in the neck. There's a huge difference.

Ill-informed drivel, as usual.

[topscribe]

He doesn't have a bad neck. He had a nerve problem which required surgery in the neck. There's a huge difference.

Ill-informed drivel, as usual.
He's also 36, not 37. It's amazing what they'll do to cast a dark picture . . .

[Bullgator]

He's also 36, not 37. It's amazing what they'll do to cast a dark picture . . .

There are 2 age groups that will fight to the death over 6 months... the 12 year olds who will correct you with 12 and a half! and the octogenarians like top who are always trying to shave time off... 36-37 it doesn't make any difference. Hes on his way out of the league. If the Colts let him go that should tell you what you need to know... the best you can hope for is ONE or maybe TWO Farve years where you can make a run till he gets injured... at this age i'm sorry dood but its inevitable.

The point is his NERVE DAMAGE IS IN HIS NECK. Not his pinky, not his anus but his NECK. And he hasn't even fully recovered yet. There is no telling what you are going to get quite yet.

[MOtorboat]

Well in that case.

Pack it in folks.

Denver has no shot.

It's not like Denver ever won with an aging quarterback...

[Bullgator]

Well in that case.

Pack it in folks.

Denver has no shot.

It's not like Denver ever won with an aging quarterback...

I would not compare Elway with Manning + a bad neck. And I don't see Shannon Sharpe and TD running around do you?

Not to mention no one says that everything wont fall in place for you and Manning resurrects his career with the DB. But IMO dont go in thinking that.. you will only be crushed. keep the expectations low... thats all... just a smart move...

[MOtorboat]

I'm not. I'm going in thinking we've got a chance. For the first time in six seasons.

You are assuming we are all expecting three Super Bowls with Manning right away so you can troll and be an ass. Par for the course.

[Bullgator]

I'm not. I'm going in thinking we've got a chance. For the first time in six seasons.

You are assuming we are all expecting three Super Bowls with Manning right away so you can troll and be an ass. Par for the course.

as has been pointed out already by your fellow DB fans it is you doing the trolling and being the ass.

I on the other hand am making valid points.

Yes Mo use the dark side... search your feelings you know it to be true... MO I am your daddy!

[MOtorboat]

Why would you care about the offensive line? That's the question I asked myself when I saw this thread.

Your subsequent jabs at Manning (inaccurate and hyperbolic as they are) tell me everything I need to know about why this thread was started.

[Bullgator]

Why would you care about the offensive line? That's the question I asked myself when I saw this thread.

Your subsequent jabs at Manning (inaccurate and hyperbolic as they are) tell me everything I need to know about why this thread was started.

you are trying awfully hard to make this into something its not... never took a jab at manning. what you need to ask yourself is why do you care about what i care about... the truth is Mo YOU are the troll... I never even enter into your threads... you follow me around like a puppy with its pink dart out.. get off my leg dood.

this is actually a place where worthy conersations can take place... you are the only one who feels the need to **** that up... bad dog!

[bcbronc]

I'd give the OL a C+.

Maturation and continuity should make them better as a unit next season. Add in Manning making their job 1000x easier than it was, and getting to work with coaches during the offseason to reinforce rather than relearn blocking schemes, and I'm hoping to see them play at an A- level next year.

Both Walton and Beadles better have a squat rack in their garage and be doing some heavy lifting over the summer. I expect we'll draft an OG/C within our first 3/4 picks to provide depth, competition and some insurance regarding Kuper.

All in all though, I'm okay giving this unit another year together and believe they'll change some opinions next season.

[TheReverend]

I would not compare Elway with Manning + a bad neck. And I don't see Shannon Sharpe and TD running around do you?

Fine. But how would you feel about comparing Manning + a bad neck to Elway + torn bicep and a total of 0 ACLs in his knees?

[Bullgator]

Fine. But how would you feel about comparing Manning + a bad neck to Elway + torn bicep and a total of 0 ACLs in his knees?

I raise you TD, Rod Smith and Shannon Shaniggidy... And I would still take Elway... as a player anyways.

Elway sure as hell had the better team.

[Bullgator]

BTW when is the FA over?

[topscribe]

There are 2 age groups that will fight to the death over 6 months... the 12 year olds who will correct you with 12 and a half! and the octogenarians like top who are always trying to shave time off... 36-37 it doesn't make any difference. Hes on his way out of the league. If the Colts let him go that should tell you what you need to know... the best you can hope for is ONE or maybe TWO Farve years where you can make a run till he gets injured... at this age i'm sorry dood but its inevitable.

The point is his NERVE DAMAGE IS IN HIS NECK. Not his pinky, not his anus but his NECK. And he hasn't even fully recovered yet. There is no telling what you are going to get quite yet.
Six months? Mannings' birthday was four days ago. :rolleyes: And four different doctors -- one for each team (Denver, Tennessee, and Arizona) and his own, have proclaimed his neck perfectly healthy. The nerve damage affected his grip and strength in his arm, not his neck. Moreover, they have determined that his recovery even there is 80%. And those who have seen and participated in his throwing have attested that his strength and velocity are nearly there.

I think it may be a good idea for you to read up on it a little better. And if you have read up on it, then try to be a little more honest about it . . .

[SmilinAssasSin27]

That makes their jobs easier... that masks their deficiencies but that will not help Franklin avoid getting beat by technique. That won't help Beadles when he's bull rushed.

Don't kid yourselves, manning is an epic general but he will get hit ALOT if the line does not improve fast. Will he hold on to the ball too long? no not really, will he pick the blitz and force more base coverage? yea... But can the Oline hold thier own 1-1 vs the better lines in the league? hell no. One good hit and its all over cept the crying.

I still say sell the farm and upgrade the Oline...

Never heard the term "makes his teammates better"? What do ya think that means? A QB, a point guard, etc. Their ability to make the jobs easier for the teammates is the premise of the statement. Their ability to read and set up a defense. Their ability to mask weaknesses and take advantage of strengths on the offense and exploit weaknesses and avoid strengths of the defenses. And that is how/why Manning "makes his line better."

Also, not making this a Tebow thing...but defenses will respect PM's ability to pass a LOT more and won't play as close to the LOS this year. This too, makes the OL's job easier.

[MOtorboat]

When the quarterback does the job a quarterback is supposed to do it makes every player on the team better.

Pass blockers look better. Run blockers have more leverage. Running backs have more room. Wide receivers find more separation.

It's the most important position in the game. (And either the first, or second most important position in major sports, with pitcher either a close second, or first).

That job was not getting done last year. Period. End of story. That's why Denver had to pull games out of their ass. To somehow discredit the upgrade that a Hall of Fame quarterback will have on a team versus what this team had last year - even an aging HOF quarterback - is asinine and unintelligent.

There's a damn good reason Bronco fans should be happy.

[SpringsBroncoFan]

I'd give the OL a C+.

Maturation and continuity should make them better as a unit next season. Add in Manning making their job 1000x easier than it was, and getting to work with coaches during the offseason to reinforce rather than relearn blocking schemes, and I'm hoping to see them play at an A- level next year.

Both Walton and Beadles better have a squat rack in their garage and be doing some heavy lifting over the summer. I expect we'll draft an OG/C within our first 3/4 picks to provide depth, competition and some insurance regarding Kuper.

All in all though, I'm okay giving this unit another year together and believe they'll change some opinions next season.

This is what scares me... pretty much all the pundits & others talk highly of the Broncos OL and I'm afraid they are in fact going to roll with them as is... We have Clark backing up Clady who can also roll at RT along with Hills & Harris. Grant is an in house b/u at G who would be fine in a phone booth and we have Ramirez. While I hope we draft somebody I'm not betting on it, save maybe somebody late. Unless there is a sleeper in this draft only Konz & DeCastro would help us at C and that's not gonna happen...

I just hope the team will see when it's necessary to make a change before Peyton gets blown up...

[jhildebrand]

The more I think about the O line and Manning the more I wonder if this team wont utilize a FB this year. Elway is familiar with it due to Howard Griffifth. I am thinking of a FB along those lines. The way a Lorenzo Neal was used. If Denver is willing to get a big time FB and use them that could go a long way in protecting Manning in blocking schemes and provide help to Beadles and Walton as needed in the run game.

[MOtorboat]

The more I think about the O line and Manning the more I wonder if this team wont utilize a FB this year. Elway is familiar with it due to Howard Griffifth. I am thinking of a FB along those lines. The way a Lorenzo Neal was used. If Denver is willing to get a big time FB and use them that could go a long way in protecting Manning in blocking schemes and provide help to Beadles and Walton as needed in the run game.

The acquisitions of the tight ends, and studying Manning's offenses in the past say "no."

And the offensive line will look monumentally better with a real quarterback who can make pre-snap reads, including hot reads, line calls and formation adjustments. You don't need a fullback for that.

[jhildebrand]

The acquisitions of the tight ends, and studying Manning's offenses in the past say "no."

I can't argue with this. I just stated that the FB position is something the Broncos should seriously consider.



And the offensive line will look monumentally better with a real quarterback who can make pre-snap reads, including hot reads, line calls and formation adjustments. You don't need a fullback for that.

Well Orton was praised for being able to make all the right reads and presnap adjustments, too. I will grant you that Manning is the best at it that we have seen. But that doesn't make the line block better. This line looked horrible with Orton. There were far too many occasions where Orton couldn't even get to his 3rd step in a 3 step drop without getting hit. I said it then when it happened. That is why I said Tebow would make the line better! It would force the D to designate 1 player for TT freeing up some room for the RB's. Let's also remember that TT was running for dear life just after the snap at times too. Sure he held the ball too long and Manning wont. But Manning wont have the scrambling abaility.

The fact is the line needs a lot of work. I am not expecting Manning to make them look like they did when Cutler was only sacked 12 times.

So unless this team drafts or brings in an upgrade to Beadles and/or Walton, there should be some serious concern.

[Canmore]

I can't argue with this. I just stated that the FB position is something the Broncos should seriously consider.



Well Orton was praised for being able to make all the right reads and presnap adjustments, too. I will grant you that Manning is the best at it that we have seen. But that doesn't make the line block better. This line looked horrible with Orton. There were far too many occasions where Orton couldn't even get to his 3rd step in a 3 step drop without getting hit. I said it then when it happened. That is why I said Tebow would make the line better! It would force the D to designate 1 player for TT freeing up some room for the RB's. Let's also remember that TT was running for dear life just after the snap at times too. Sure he held the ball too long and Manning wont. But Manning wont have the scrambling abaility.

The fact is the line needs a lot of work. I am not expecting Manning to make them look like they did when Cutler was only sacked 12 times.

So unless this team drafts or brings in an upgrade to Beadles and/or Walton, there should be some serious concern.

I'm concerned about Beadles and Walton. I really wonder what Elway and Fox really think about our offensive line. I guess the draft will say something about that.

[MOtorboat]

I can't argue with this. I just stated that the FB position is something the Broncos should seriously consider.



Well Orton was praised for being able to make all the right reads and presnap adjustments, too. I will grant you that Manning is the best at it that we have seen. But that doesn't make the line block better. This line looked horrible with Orton. There were far too many occasions where Orton couldn't even get to his 3rd step in a 3 step drop without getting hit. I said it then when it happened. That is why I said Tebow would make the line better! It would force the D to designate 1 player for TT freeing up some room for the RB's. Let's also remember that TT was running for dear life just after the snap at times too. Sure he held the ball too long and Manning wont. But Manning wont have the scrambling abaility.

The fact is the line needs a lot of work. I am not expecting Manning to make them look like they did when Cutler was only sacked 12 times.

So unless this team drafts or brings in an upgrade to Beadles and/or Walton, there should be some serious concern.

When was Orton praised for reading defenses? That was a weakness of his. And Tebow obviously improved nothing when it came to pass protection, so that's absurd. He wasn't running for his life because the offensive line was bad. He was running for his life because he couldn't read a defense, nor would he throw the damn ball.

[bcbronc]

I'm concerned about Beadles and Walton. I really wonder what Elway and Fox really think about our offensive line. I guess the draft will say something about that.

The draft will, but imo so does UFA. The only rumour I recall hearing was Saturday, and the scuttlebutt I've read is that interest was only lukewarm. Other teams in the Manning hunt upgraded their OL, we stayed put. If EFX agreed that our OL was in dire need of a rebuild I'd hope they would have been after some of the top UFAs. EFX might feel they can get an upgrade in the draft, but that's a huge gamble if you see upgrading as a priority.

[Canmore]

The draft will, but imo so does UFA. The only rumour I recall hearing was Saturday, and the scuttlebutt I've read is that interest was only lukewarm. Other teams in the Manning hunt upgraded their OL, we stayed put. If EFX agreed that our OL was in dire need of a rebuild I'd hope they would have been after some of the top UFAs. EFX might feel they can get an upgrade in the draft, but that's a huge gamble if you see upgrading as a priority.

I hear you. We certainly haven't done much, more like anything in free agency that addresses the offensive line. It looks like that is not a priority... duh. Will they draft someone? I'm sure they will, but what round are we talking about. Beadles and Walton don't inspire any confidence on my part. It would seem obvious that the front office sees differently.

[Joel]

You just contradicted everything presented to you, and said you understood, then turned around and ignored everything you just said you understood. If the QB makes the OL's job easier, then they have an easier task to accomplish... thus making them better at accomplishing their task...or certainly more likely to accomplish the given EASIER job.That's a critical distinction, as others have noted: Making their job easier doesn't make them better, it makes the consequences of their failings potentially less severe. But if Mannings mind and reflexes were quick enough to make poor blocking IRRELEVANT his neck would never have been injured and he'd still be in Indy. A quarterback is not a one man offense; Denvers understanding of that is what drew me to them in the first place, and the post-Shanahan eras reversion to "Great QB+Great blitzers=Championship" is deplorable.
To say that "Manning is going to get hit a LOT (it's two words btw)" isn't taking into the fact that Manning puts the blocking schemes, protections, recognitions, shifts and RBs in the right place. Thats a HUGE huge difference maker. Peyton has had worse OL's than what we have. He went to a Super Bowl with a rookie LT, that turned out to not be very good.For MOST of his career Manning had exceptional offensive lines that made HIM better; that's actually how that tends to go. The first year I compiled my QBRS I was stunned to note he was only sacked 16 times in the whole season, and don't think that's all about his quick release and hot reads (although, in terms of what Manning can do by himself: 1 Super Bowl and 2 AFC Championships in how many years...?) The difference between Elway winning and losing Super Bowls was his offensive line more than anything else, including his Pro Bowl receivers and HoF running back.
We saw the difference in what a QB can do the moment Cutler left. We had what was considered to be the best OL in the NFL. The next season, with Orton behind center... that dropped DRAMATICALLY. Now I know some of you are going to say "but that was the scheme change." Ok, and it's the QB that is going to put the "scheme" into its best motion while on the field.We also saw the boy-genius start screwing up the line along with everything else as soon as he got here. Someone (think it was Bull, actually) suggested trying to lure someone like Wiegmann away from the Chiefs to solve our line problems: We HAD Wiegmann after the Chiefs released him, but McDumbass decided Walton was an upgrade, and now he's back in KC. :tsk: As soon as we dumped Ben Hamilton and Wiegmann for the younger and "better" Walton and Beadles, the "NFLs best line" went out the window (though I think the Pats line was still better, and the Colts, too, when they had Lilja.)
A good QB makes EVERYONE's job easier. He doesn't have to have pro-bowl OL across the board to get the job done. THats why some QBs are much better than others. Manning is nearly a clone of Marino. Marino was famous for his ability to get rid of the ball, and NOT be sacked despite his near inability to run. Shifting within the pocket is MUCH easier on the OL, and keeps the QB standing up.Marino had Dwight Stephenson at center most of his career, and at least one Pro Bowl guard from '84-'86. He still only made (and lost) one Super Bow, and is Exhibit A for the case against QBs as one man offenses.
There is NO reason to believe that Manning is going to get the kind of pressure that our QB of last year did, because Manning actually understands reading defenses.... AND...the opposing defense will respect Peytons' ability to beat them with his arm. HUGE HUGE difference.There's no reason to believe an old, rickety and immobile QB, arguably the best pocket passer in history, will get the same pressure as a run-first QB with serious questions about his arm?! That sentence alone lists half a dozen reasons. He will get more pressure precisely because opposing defenses respect his passing ability , because the combination of handcuffing DBs and widespread conceit pass defence consists of nothing but blitzes would guarantee it even if he were as young, healthy and mobile as He Who Must Not Be Named. I think the notion we made the playoffs despite our last QB will be put to rest in about half a year.
When the quarterback does the job a quarterback is supposed to do it makes every player on the team better.Pass blockers look better. Run blockers have more leverage. Running backs have more room. Wide receivers find more separation.It's the most important position in the game. (And either the first, or second most important position in major sports, with pitcher either a close second, or first).That job was not getting done last year. Period. End of story. That's why Denver had to pull games out of their ass. To somehow discredit the upgrade that a Hall of Fame quarterback will have on a team versus what this team had last year - even an aging HOF quarterback - is asinine and unintelligent.There's a damn good reason Bronco fans should be happy.Surprisingly enough, not everything is a function of He Who Must Not Be Named, who was himself only a function of the Broncos (and only WHILE a Bronco.) Is Manning an upgrade? If he's healthy, unquestionably; he would be an upgrade over pretty much any QB in the league (although, without solid protection, I'd rather have his brother, who's more elusive.)

That doesn't change the fact Denvers only Pro Bowl receivers in the last two years were hastily handed to other teams for peanuts, leaving inconsistent second year players in their place (though Thomas looks solid now.) It doesn't change the fact we have no running backs to speak of when McGahee is too sore and tired to continue being hit at the line on every play then breaking multiple tackles to get four yards. And it doesn't change the fact our only good tackle was constantly holding after last years injury, our only good guard had his foot spun around backward at the end of the season, our other two guards are awful and our other tackle is a second year player who looked the part last year.

None of that has any more to do with Tebow than it did Orton, apart from the fact the rest of our offense made THEIR jobs harder as much the reverse was true. Peyton Manning can't change that; if he's healthy, he'll do more with that non-support than his two predecessors, but let's not kid ourselves he's solved all our problems. If we don't solve our problems on the line his remaining career could be measured in months, not years. Despite its appeal, ignoring problems makes them worse, not better.

The only good in this is that in two years we won't be able to tell ourselves we're a Super Bowl team that keeps missing the playoffs because our crappy QB isn't a Hall of Famer and we have no blitzers.

[SOCALORADO.]

That's a critical distinction, as others have noted: Making their job easier doesn't make them better, it makes the consequences of their failings potentially less severe. But if Mannings mind and reflexes were quick enough to make poor blocking IRRELEVANT his neck would never have been injured and he'd still be in Indy. A quarterback is not a one man offense; Denvers understanding of that is what drew me to them in the first place, and the post-Shanahan eras reversion to "Great QB+Great blitzers=Championship" is deplorable. For MOST of his career Manning had exceptional offensive lines that made HIM better; that's actually how that tends to go. The first year I compiled my QBRS I was stunned to note he was only sacked 16 times in the whole season, and don't think that's all about his quick release and hot reads (although, in terms of what Manning can do by himself: 1 Super Bowl and 2 AFC Championships in how many years...?) The difference between Elway winning and losing Super Bowls was his offensive line more than anything else, including his Pro Bowl receivers and HoF running back.We also saw the boy-genius start screwing up the line along with everything else as soon as he got here. Someone (think it was Bull, actually) suggested trying to lure someone like Wiegmann away from the Chiefs to solve our line problems: We HAD Wiegmann after the Chiefs released him, but McDumbass decided Walton was an upgrade, and now he's back in KC. :tsk: As soon as we dumped Ben Hamilton and Wiegmann for the younger and "better" Walton and Beadles, the "NFLs best line" went out the window (though I think the Pats line was still better, and the Colts, too, when they had Lilja.)Marino had Dwight Stephenson at center most of his career, and at least one Pro Bowl guard from '84-'86. He still only made (and lost) one Super Bow, and is Exhibit A for the case against QBs as one man offenses.There's no reason to believe an old, rickety and immobile QB, arguably the best pocket passer in history, will get the same pressure as a run-first QB with serious questions about his arm?! That sentence alone lists half a dozen reasons. He will get more pressure precisely because opposing defenses respect his passing ability , because the combination of handcuffing DBs and widespread conceit pass defence consists of nothing but blitzes would guarantee it even if he were as young, healthy and mobile as He Who Must Not Be Named. I think the notion we made the playoffs despite our last QB will be put to rest in about half a year.Surprisingly enough, not everything is a function of He Who Must Not Be Named, who was himself only a function of the Broncos (and only WHILE a Bronco.) Is Manning an upgrade? If he's healthy, unquestionably; he would be an upgrade over pretty much any QB in the league (although, without solid protection, I'd rather have his brother, who's more elusive.)

That doesn't change the fact Denvers only Pro Bowl receivers in the last two years were hastily handed to other teams for peanuts, leaving inconsistent second year players in their place (though Thomas looks solid now.) It doesn't change the fact we have no running backs to speak of when McGahee is too sore and tired to continue being hit at the line on every play then breaking multiple tackles to get four yards. And it doesn't change the fact our only good tackle was constantly holding after last years injury, our only good guard had his foot spun around backward at the end of the season, our other two guards are awful and our other tackle is a second year player who looked the part last year.

None of that has any more to do with Tebow than it did Orton, apart from the fact the rest of our offense made THEIR jobs harder as much the reverse was true. Peyton Manning can't change that; if he's healthy, he'll do more with that non-support than his two predecessors, but let's not kid ourselves he's solved all our problems. If we don't solve our problems on the line his remaining career could be measured in months, not years. Despite its appeal, ignoring problems makes them worse, not better.

The only good in this is that in two years we won't be able to tell ourselves we're a Super Bowl team that keeps missing the playoffs because our crappy QB isn't a Hall of Famer and we have no blitzers.

There you go again, Joel with them negative waves.
Always with them negative waves.
Have a little faith, man.

[Cugel]

That's a critical distinction, as others have noted: Making their job easier doesn't make them better, it makes the consequences of their failings potentially less severe. But if Manning's mind and reflexes were quick enough to make poor blocking IRRELEVANT his neck would never have been injured and he'd still be in Indy.

He played every game for 13 years. Virtually every snap from 1998 through 2010. Getting hurt at some point in this league is inevitable. No, poor blocking isn't irrelevant. But a QB who can check out of plays, make quick decisions and get rid of the ball on time and on target DOES make the OL's job a LOT easier.

Just close your eyes and compare Manning to Tebow. Remember Tebow running around holding onto the ball out there being afraid to throw the ball over the middle and then taking off and trying to run? That's not going to happen with Manning.

As for Orton, teams decided to blitz Orton because the OL wasn't that strong. And there was nothing Orton could do about it. He wasn't changing plays at the line, he was the epitome of a paint-by-the-numbers QB, doing what he was told.

I remember seeing defenders lining up in an obvious blitz and thinking "Uh-oh!" Because you just knew Orton couldn't deal with it.

Teams try that with Manning and his eyes just light up like a pin-ball machine because he KNOWS he has the chance for a big play. And defenses know it too. They've learned through years of trying that you better NOT try that because Manning will make you pay. He's deadly accurate with his throws.

It's ironic that you mention Dan Marino, because Manning is probably the closest passer to Marino since Marino. But Manning is a far superior on-field general.

The only QB in NFL history to even compare with Manning as a field-general was Johnny Unitas who also called all his own plays. Brady comes to mind as well of course.


A quarterback is not a one man offense; . . . .I was stunned to note he was only sacked 16 times in the whole season, and don't think that's all about his quick release and hot reads. . . .The difference between Elway winning and losing Super Bowls was his offensive line more than anything else, including his Pro Bowl receivers and HoF running back.We also saw the boy-genius start screwing up the line along with everything else as soon as he got here. . . .

Marino had Dwight Stephenson at center most of his career, and at least one Pro Bowl guard from '84-'86. He still only made (and lost) one Super Bow, and is Exhibit A for the case against QBs as one man offenses.

Clearly you can't win a SB unless you have a LOT of talent around Manning (or Marino for that matter). And NO! Denver currently has NOTHING to compare with Gary Zimmerman (HOF), T.D. (2000 yards - should be HOF), Shannon Sharpe (HOF), Rod Smith (deserves consideration), Ed McCaffrey. There's nobody on Denver's current offense who can compare at all to these players.

So, I'd be surprised if Denver wins the SB this season. It's going to take a lot more talent addition to make them as good as the Patriots, Steelers, Ravens, Giants, Packers, 49ers or Saints.


There's no reason to believe an old, rickety and immobile QB, arguably the best pocket passer in history, will get the same pressure as a run-first QB with serious questions about his arm?!

If teams can blitz the Broncos right up the middle and get in Manning's face that's a problem. No QB likes that. So, Walton's play is critical and I think not signing Saturday was a mistake. But, not all teams can generate that kind of inside pressure with 4 defenders. The Giants can which is a big reason they won 2 SBs. But not everybody is stacked on the DL like the NYG or Detroit.

And if they blitz 5 or 6 somebody's going to be open. And Manning will hit that guy. Often for big yardage. With Orton they could blitz him because they didn't respect his arm. But, would you try that against Brady, Manning, Brees or Eli Manning? No. Especially Manning.



The only good in this is that in two years we won't be able to tell ourselves we're a Super Bowl team that keeps missing the playoffs because our crappy QB isn't a Hall of Famer and we have no blitzers.

Well, that's the unduly negative view. Do the Broncos need to add talent? Sure. They are just two years removed from the McApocalypse when the team barely won 4 games. Two good drafts, plus some FAs who don't suck will help but this team is still a long ways away in overall talent from the other elite teams.

Realistically, I'm hoping Manning can come back strong, stay healthy and take this team into the playoffs despite the tough first place schedule that has them playing the Steelers, Ravens, Saints, Patriots, and Falcons.

Tebow would have struggled to win 6 games against those teams. If Manning can win 10 and the division that would be all the proof we need. Then we make the big push in 2013 and 2014.

[NightTerror218]

He doesn't have a bad neck. He had a nerve problem which required surgery in the neck. There's a huge difference.

Ill-informed drivel, as usual.

He HAD a bad neck. He had disks fused. Not just nerve problem and can actually be severe. My mom had this exact same procedure. 2 years later not 100%.

[Cugel]

He HAD a bad neck. He had disks fused. Not just nerve problem and can actually be severe. My mom had this exact same procedure. 2 years later not 100%.

True, but perhaps your mom is a bit older than Peyton Manning, and she probably doesn't have the training staff and elite medical facilities devoted to her rehab working out with her every day. And she might not be a highly conditioned athlete used to working out for hours every day of the year. So, there might be a slight difference. :rolleyes:

[Bullgator]

That's a critical distinction, as others have noted: Making their job easier doesn't make them better, it makes the consequences of their failings potentially less severe. But if Mannings mind and reflexes were quick enough to make poor blocking IRRELEVANT his neck would never have been injured and he'd still be in Indy. A quarterback is not a one man offense; Denvers understanding of that is what drew me to them in the first place, and the post-Shanahan eras reversion to "Great QB+Great blitzers=Championship" is deplorable. For MOST of his career Manning had exceptional offensive lines that made HIM better; that's actually how that tends to go. The first year I compiled my QBRS I was stunned to note he was only sacked 16 times in the whole season, and don't think that's all about his quick release and hot reads (although, in terms of what Manning can do by himself: 1 Super Bowl and 2 AFC Championships in how many years...?) The difference between Elway winning and losing Super Bowls was his offensive line more than anything else, including his Pro Bowl receivers and HoF running back.We also saw the boy-genius start screwing up the line along with everything else as soon as he got here. Someone (think it was Bull, actually) suggested trying to lure someone like Wiegmann away from the Chiefs to solve our line problems: We HAD Wiegmann after the Chiefs released him, but McDumbass decided Walton was an upgrade, and now he's back in KC. :tsk: As soon as we dumped Ben Hamilton and Wiegmann for the younger and "better" Walton and Beadles, the "NFLs best line" went out the window (though I think the Pats line was still better, and the Colts, too, when they had Lilja.)Marino had Dwight Stephenson at center most of his career, and at least one Pro Bowl guard from '84-'86. He still only made (and lost) one Super Bow, and is Exhibit A for the case against QBs as one man offenses.There's no reason to believe an old, rickety and immobile QB, arguably the best pocket passer in history, will get the same pressure as a run-first QB with serious questions about his arm?! That sentence alone lists half a dozen reasons. He will get more pressure precisely because opposing defenses respect his passing ability , because the combination of handcuffing DBs and widespread conceit pass defence consists of nothing but blitzes would guarantee it even if he were as young, healthy and mobile as He Who Must Not Be Named. I think the notion we made the playoffs despite our last QB will be put to rest in about half a year.Surprisingly enough, not everything is a function of He Who Must Not Be Named, who was himself only a function of the Broncos (and only WHILE a Bronco.) Is Manning an upgrade? If he's healthy, unquestionably; he would be an upgrade over pretty much any QB in the league (although, without solid protection, I'd rather have his brother, who's more elusive.)

That doesn't change the fact Denvers only Pro Bowl receivers in the last two years were hastily handed to other teams for peanuts, leaving inconsistent second year players in their place (though Thomas looks solid now.) It doesn't change the fact we have no running backs to speak of when McGahee is too sore and tired to continue being hit at the line on every play then breaking multiple tackles to get four yards. And it doesn't change the fact our only good tackle was constantly holding after last years injury, our only good guard had his foot spun around backward at the end of the season, our other two guards are awful and our other tackle is a second year player who looked the part last year.

None of that has any more to do with Tebow than it did Orton, apart from the fact the rest of our offense made THEIR jobs harder as much the reverse was true. Peyton Manning can't change that; if he's healthy, he'll do more with that non-support than his two predecessors, but let's not kid ourselves he's solved all our problems. If we don't solve our problems on the line his remaining career could be measured in months, not years. Despite its appeal, ignoring problems makes them worse, not better.

The only good in this is that in two years we won't be able to tell ourselves we're a Super Bowl team that keeps missing the playoffs because our crappy QB isn't a Hall of Famer and we have no blitzers.

VERY good post... not that the blind will see or the def will hear... its a recurring theme with them even when they were wrong ALL LAST YEAR they still bend reality to fit their fragile minds.

Thanks to espn they bash Tebow even though in his first year as starter he took a way below avg team to a home playoff win... best in 7 years... and now the media hype is getting to them again that a dinged up hof who past his prime is going to win championships by himself...

Tell me this Mos of the world, name me ONE legend who left his original team past his prime who has won anything with their new team! Not Montana not Favre not anyone...

Im am not saying that Manning cant do that... Im saying you better protect his ass... Im saying its not Manning who is going to save you franchise... ITS YOU THAT MUST SAVE MANNING. and then maybe you could have a special year.

[turftoad]

VERY good post... not that the blind will see or the def will hear... its a recurring theme with them even when they were wrong ALL LAST YEAR they still bend reality to fit their fragile minds.

Thanks to espn they bash Tebow even though in his first year as starter he took a way below avg team to a home playoff win... best in 7 years... and now the media hype is getting to them again that a dinged up hof who past his prime is going to win championships by himself...

Tell me this Mos of the world, name me ONE legend who left his original team past his prime who has won anything with their new team! Not Montana not Favre not anyone...

Im am not saying that Manning cant do that... Im saying you better protect his ass... Im saying its not Manning who is going to save you franchise... ITS YOU THAT MUST SAVE MANNING. and then maybe you could have a special year.

Are you still here? :tsk:

[Bullgator]

Are you still here? :tsk:

Are you? who the hell do you think you are? you are nobody to me Toad get lost.

[MOtorboat]

I believe Manning is only the second hall of fame caliber quarterback to ever hit free agency, so obviously, that's kind of a stupid argument.

The other, Favre, was an overtime away from playing in a Super Bowl.

:whoknows:

I'll take my chances with a future hall of famer rather than Akili Smith.

[turftoad]

Are you? who the hell do you think you are? you are nobody to me Toad get lost.

All you wanna do is bash the moves the Broncos have made and try to push your opinion on Manning on us. You are pissed off that the Broncos actually traded Tebow and can't get over it. You are not even a fan of the Broncos so I don't even understand why the hell you'd even want to be here except to piss people off.

BTW, I think out O line is great, I mean, we were #1 in rushing last year and that's because of the O line.

[Bullgator]

I believe Manning is only the second hall of fame caliber quarterback to ever hit free agency, so obviously, that's kind of a stupid argument.

The other, Favre, was an overtime away from playing in a Super Bowl.

:whoknows:

I'll take my chances with a future hall of famer rather than Akili Smith.

You would be wrong as you always are... unless Montanas stint in KC was bad enough to remove him from the HoF

[MOtorboat]

Montana was traded to the Chiefs.

[Bullgator]

All you wanna do is bash the moves the Broncos have made and try to push your opinion on Manning on us. You are pissed off that the Broncos actually traded Tebow and can't get over it. You are not even a fan of the Broncos so I don't even understand why the hell you'd even want to be here except to piss people off.

BTW, I think out O line is great, I mean, we were #1 in rushing last year and that's because of the O line.

LOOLOLOlolopllolollllllpuke...

A) Except for you and like 9 horrible people I like it here.

B) I certainly don't bash every move... DB did very well in the draft. AND Im on record that I think Manning was a GOOD MOVE. I started a thread saying that the DB MUST go after manning.. I was just against trading Tebw because it would be a stupid move to trade you future away when you have no ******* clue what manning would bring to the table as a HURT aging QB who sat out a year.

C) LOL @ you for even suggesting it was the Oline that made the DB the #1 rushing team... Could have had something to do with the 700 yards the QB brought in. You sure as heel wasnt #1 without Tebow. with that same line.

Dont hurt your brain wondering why im here.. there are enough good fair people to have a decent convo with... there are also detestable vile people here as well but not enough to make this place not worth posting on.

[Bullgator]

Montana was traded to the Chiefs.

Thanks Cap obvious. You think your sharp just because your head is pointy.

You can play semantics all you want between FA and being traded. we all know the point is that old as dirt QB cant just restart all over again and win championships by them selves they need a special sitch.

Favre almost had one in Minny.

[MOtorboat]

Denver wasn't going anywhere with what they had, so they upgraded. It will make the offense viable again, and will make a decent offensive line look even better.

And I always love the "the offense was the best rushing offense in the league but the offensive line had nothing to do with it" argument.

[ShooterJM]

Ok, so a quick question. The offense lines up and gets in their position/stance. The defense lines up. Who calles out the blitz pickup and line adjustments?

[NightTerror218]

He HAD a bad neck. He had disks fused. Not just nerve problem and can actually be severe. My mom had this exact same procedure. 2 years later not 100%.

True, but perhaps your mom is a bit older than Peyton Manning, and she probably doesn't have the training staff and elite medical facilities devoted to her rehab working out with her every day. And she might not be a highly conditioned athlete used to working out for hours every day of the year. So, there might be a slight difference. :rolleyes:

That is all true but the fact that there is a higher chance if not being 100% with surgery then being 100%. I only used ny mom because it gives ne first hand experience with this exact procedure. If manning did not have all that training he would not be able to move neck or any where close to normal arm strength. He said he is not 100% but his 75% is better than most starting QBs in the NFL.

[MOtorboat]

Ok, so a quick question. The offense lines up and gets in their position/stance. The defense lines up. Who calles out the blitz pickup and line adjustments?

The quarterback and the center. So, yes, that is a concern with Walton. However, I guarantee Peyton's center will know the calls he supposed to make.

It's the quarterback's job to identify the "MLB" which dictates how the center assigns blocking. Just a guess, but its my belief that Walton and Tebow both struggled with this mightily last year.

The run game is a little easier to manage...

[bcbronc]

As for Orton, teams decided to blitz Orton because the OL wasn't that strong. And there was nothing Orton could do about it. He wasn't changing plays at the line, he was the epitome of a paint-by-the-numbers QB, doing what he was told.

I remember seeing defenders lining up in an obvious blitz and thinking "Uh-oh!" Because you just knew Orton couldn't deal with it.

Teams try that with Manning and his eyes just light up like a pin-ball machine because he KNOWS he has the chance for a big play. And defenses know it too. They've learned through years of trying that you better NOT try that because Manning will make you pay. He's deadly accurate with his throws.

this needs to be said and said again until it sinks in with everybody. Most here will have heard a commentator discuss how Manning breaks every huddle with three plays called, deciding which to run after he sees the defense. In the NFL leverage is king and the difference between being in the right play vs the wrong play is huge. That's more true for an OL than any other position.

Making a player's job easier is the same as making that player better. You only critique a player on what he does in relation to what you are asking him to do. It doesn't matter if he can't do X if you don't need him to do X. There's no better way to improve a player's performance than to simplify what they have to do on the field.

With Manning the OL will likely have the formational presnap advantage, and now have a predictable QB behind them. There's a reason QBs like Elway and Big Ben take a lot of sacks: they hold on to the ball and get outside the pocket, meaning the OL doesn't know what spot he's protecting. Manning obviously isn't like that. When the ball gets snapped, the OL knows what spot they have to protect. It won't be the same spot every snap--Manning is great at moving his pocket around to make things harder on the defense--but the OL will know their QB is where he's supposed to be every play.

And of course with Manning's quick release, the blocking won't need to hold up as long. I'd like to know what the difference in release time is from when Manning/Tebow decide to throw a ball until the time the ball is on the way. Whatever amount of time it is, when we're working in 2.9 second windows, every tenth makes the OL's job easier. The easier the job is, the easier it is to be good at it.



Clearly you can't win a SB unless you have a LOT of talent around Manning (or Marino for that matter). And NO! Denver currently has NOTHING to compare with Gary Zimmerman (HOF), T.D. (2000 yards - should be HOF), Shannon Sharpe (HOF), Rod Smith (deserves consideration), Ed McCaffrey. There's nobody on Denver's current offense who can compare at all to these players.

Okay, since you said "compare" I think you can compare our guys to these guys. Obviously not at current levels of play, but in potential upside.

Zimmerman-Clady: after Clady's rookie season it wasn't farfetched to see a potential HOF career. Hasn't been as good lately, but could regain his form and get back into the conversation for best LT in the game.

Sharpe-Thomas et al: poor man's for sure, but JThomas could develop into a match up nightmare. Not saying I think he'll be a future HOFer, but we've got a group of TEs that should give us production.

McCaffrey-Decker: obvious comparison.

Smith-DThomas: potentially a more explosive #1 WR. It's not fair to any young WR to try and compare their intangibles to Rod Smith's, and I'm not doing that. But with Peyton Manning at the helm, DT can provide what RS did on the field.

Need to get a TD though.

[Joel]

There you go again, Joel with them negative waves.
Always with them negative waves.
Have a little faith, man.
Just trying to be a little more realistic than debating whether we win it all next year or "just" reach the Conference Championship. We're nowhere good enough adding one player, even a Hall of Famer, can achieve that. This is about assembling a championship TEAM, not faith in doing the impossible without the ability; that ship sailed for NY when EFX wouldn't get on board. Maybe you should've told THEM to "have faith." :tongue:


He played every game for 13 years. Virtually every snap from 1998 through 2010. Getting hurt at some point in this league is inevitable. No, poor blocking isn't irrelevant. But a QB who can check out of plays, make quick decisions and get rid of the ball on time and on target DOES make the OL's job a LOT easier.
He played great until his line scattered to the four winds after a couple Super Bowl appearances; then he missed the whole season because he got hurt before it even started. That's the difference the line makes. Honestly, the spectacle of "great blitzers+great QB=championship" retaining credibility in Denver is baffling; one would have thought the mid-eighties Broncos disabused Denver of that fallacy.


Just close your eyes and compare Manning to Tebow. Remember Tebow running around holding onto the ball out there being afraid to throw the ball over the middle and then taking off and trying to run? That's not going to happen with Manning.
No, it's not; when protection breaks down that badly and quickly he'll collapse in a heap like Orton did, because he's every bit as much a statue. The sole small upside is we won't be subjected to claims he has to learn NFL starters must get the ball out in <3 seconds. By seasons end we may ALL close our eyes every time Manning steps to the line behind Walton. He's a classic pocket passer, and the era of the pocket passer is over unless you have a rock solid line. Brady and Manning used to be the only two examples to cite, but when the Colts SB line got auctioned to the highest bidder, Manning went down and left just Brady.


As for Orton, teams decided to blitz Orton because the OL wasn't that strong. And there was nothing Orton could do about it. He wasn't changing plays at the line, he was the epitome of a paint-by-the-numbers QB, doing what he was told.

I remember seeing defenders lining up in an obvious blitz and thinking "Uh-oh!" Because you just knew Orton couldn't deal with it.

Teams try that with Manning and his eyes just light up like a pin-ball machine because he KNOWS he has the chance for a big play. And defenses know it too. They've learned through years of trying that you better NOT try that because Manning will make you pay. He's deadly accurate with his throws.
That's actually true of MOST decent QBs IF they have the personnel to make plays on hot reads. The trouble is, again, assembling TEAMS of players rather than a couple hired guns complemented by a couple highly drafted rookies and a couple score scrubs. The epic failures off facing good passers with nothing but blitzes is why I'm sick of hearing "DL, DL, DL111" from folks who just mean "more blitzers; screw run stopping and any investment in a secondary!" Remember when people bashed Ebenezer Ekuban and John Engelberger for not rushing passers as well as they run stopped? Now it's Ayers' instead. Anyway....

Manning won't make blitzers pay unless his hot read 1) is open and 2) catches the ball. Otherwise it's 2nd, 3rd or 4th and 10 and you hope your QB gets up after the whistle. If we can't stop even 5 or 6 pass rushers that leaves 6 or 5 defenders to cover a maximum of 5 receivers; it's far from given anyone will get open and make a catch. Doing the latter was a challenge for Thomas at the start of last year and Decker at the end of it, and Decker has trouble getting open these days, too. If we or Manning count on that to make teams pay for blitzing, we're in trouble (hence I think we're in trouble.)


It's ironic that you mention Dan Marino, because Manning is probably the closest passer to Marino since Marino. But Manning is a far superior on-field general.

The only QB in NFL history to even compare with Manning as a field-general was Johnny Unitas who also called all his own plays. Brady comes to mind as well of course.
And if we had Jim Parker, Glenn Gressler, Raymond Berry, John Mackey and Lenny Moore ca. 1967, I wouldn't be worried, but we don't, so I am. Rav, not I, brought up Marino, but the comparison's sound, because both have very quick releases, no mobility and an awful supporting cast, though at least Marino had Stephenson (maybe Clady will offset that if he plays the next few seasons like his first instead of his last.) Unless we get him more help, Manning will win Denver as many Super Bowls as Marino won Miami: The difference is we've got two years, not a decade plus.

Speaking of Unitas, he came off the bench with an injury to lose to the Jets in SB III, then returned to it to watch Morrall finish his only Super Bowl victory. Call me crazy, but I think the Cowboys beat Caleb Hanie (making history very different; for one thing, SB champ Craig Morton might've stayed in Dallas instead of becoming the only QB to start and lose a SB for both Conferences.)

To the extent QB is all, Il prefer Otto Graham, who didn't call his own plays, but was 7-3 in championships in his 10 year career (as opposed to winning 3 in 17.) Either Graham was the best QB ever or the Browns were already pretty good when he showed up for that rookie championship (note: The possibilities are not mutually exclusive.) They slumped when he retired, but drafted Jim Brown two years later and soon found themselves in another championship despite the pathetic Tommy O'Connell succeeding Graham. The common theme was a great line (thus Lou Groza has more championships than Graham OR Brown.)


Clearly you can't win a SB unless you have a LOT of talent around Manning (or Marino for that matter). And NO! Denver currently has NOTHING to compare with Gary Zimmerman (HOF), T.D. (2000 yards - should be HOF), Shannon Sharpe (HOF), Rod Smith (deserves consideration), Ed McCaffrey. There's nobody on Denver's current offense who can compare at all to these players.
Which is why I'd very much like us to something about that, but apart from Manning the best player we've added is Tracey Porter, while surrendering our only DT worthy of the name. I realize we can't fix every problem over night, but paying Manning $20 million/year (or about 1/6 of our team payroll) severely ties our hands and jeopardizes his safety. I would rather have addressed that problem, even if it meant sticking with He Who Must Not Be Named for another year or two, because Manning will be retired then regardless, and whoever our QB is then will need the help even more badly.


So, I'd be surprised if Denver wins the SB this season. It's going to take a lot more talent addition to make them as good as the Patriots, Steelers, Ravens, Giants, Packers, 49ers or Saints.
That, and that we'd better fix our line if we want Manning to finish the season, is all I'm saying. However, given his age and injury history, the only realistic conclusion is that by the time we can build a Super Bowl roster Manning won't be on it, which makes signing him a warm, fuzzy and incredibly expensive waste of time. Why not sign Bradshaw? He's already in Canton. :tongue:


If teams can blitz the Broncos right up the middle and get in Manning's face that's a problem. No QB likes that. So, Walton's play is critical and I think not signing Saturday was a mistake. But, not all teams can generate that kind of inside pressure with 4 defenders. The Giants can which is a big reason they won 2 SBs. But not everybody is stacked on the DL like the NYG or Detroit.
If our only goal is lots of wins against teams who can't make the postseason, we could've stuck with what we had and been among the top NCAA teams. Beadles' play is just as critical, and Kupers recovery from injury, and Cladys, and Franklin looking less like one of those NCAA players, and all of them staying healthy, because the guys backing them are almost by definition worse. It's a bit premature to equate Thomas with Marvin Harrison, but that still wouldn't give us Wayne or Clark, so tackle will be just as important as guard. Even Peyton Manning can't complete a hot read to blanketed receivers (they're "NFL open." ;))


And if they blitz 5 or 6 somebody's going to be open. And Manning will hit that guy. Often for big yardage. With Orton they could blitz him because they didn't respect his arm. But, would you try that against Brady, Manning, Brees or Eli Manning? No. Especially Manning.
If they blitz 5 or 6 (only a nominal "blitz") that's one for each lineman plus the QB, so every single eligible receiver can be covered.


Well, that's the unduly negative view. Do the Broncos need to add talent? Sure. They are just two years removed from the McApocalypse when the team barely won 4 games. Two good drafts, plus some FAs who don't suck will help but this team is still a long ways away in overall talent from the other elite teams.
After two good drafts, Manning will be 37, a year younger than Elway was when he retired; we win a Super Bowl with him then or not at all. That's if we strike gold with nearly all those draft picks, because by my count we have major deficiencies at: LG, C, RT, #2 WR (if I'm generous,) DT, MLB, FS and SS. That's if I ignore the fact we have nothing behind McGahee and no FB worth mentioning, and accept that Fells, Tamme or Rosario is our TE of the future. It's not my $40 million, or I'd spend it differently.


Realistically, I'm hoping Manning can come back strong, stay healthy and take this team into the playoffs despite the tough first place schedule that has them playing the Steelers, Ravens, Saints, Patriots, and Falcons.

Tebow would have struggled to win 6 games against those teams. If Manning can win 10 and the division that would be all the proof we need. Then we make the big push in 2013 and 2014.
Realistically, if Manning takes this team back to the playoffs it will be by the same miracles that Tebow did last year, and we won't make it past the second round this time either, in which case we should've danced with the one who brung us and cost 1/20th as much, thereby freeing money to spend on players at OTHER positions of desperate need to get us over the top.

We don't know how many games Tebow would have won against this schedule, only that nearly every win would require herculean efforts of him OR Manning. Last year I figured Tebow would struggle to win four games, and was as shocked as anyone to see him double that. Sometimes, conventional wisdom as wrong, but I dislike fixing what isn't broken. That said, Manning does make the team better, even with the investment, but shipping our only other winning QB for a 4th and 6th round pick was needlessly betting the farm.


Im saying its not Manning who is going to save you franchise... ITS YOU THAT MUST SAVE MANNING. and then maybe you could have a special year.
That's the crux of it, really.

[Simple Jaded]

Chris Kuper seems "suspect" to you? I'll give Gator fan the benefit of the doubt and assume that he's talking about Kuper returning from injury?.......

[Dzone]

Well the first game will be primetime against Pittsburgh with that dirty as hell James Harrison. The way he hit Colt Mccoy with his helmet is cause for concern. He is dirty and doesnt care. We have to protect our qb.
JD Walton was known for his good games in college against Ndomkong Suh. Hope he will be good to go and as good as Jeff Saturday. Looks like he is already getting on page with Peyton. Peyton will make JD a better center, thats for sure.

[Joel]

As for Orton, teams decided to blitz Orton because the OL wasn't that strong. And there was nothing Orton could do about it. He wasn't changing plays at the line, he was the epitome of a paint-by-the-numbers QB, doing what he was told.

I remember seeing defenders lining up in an obvious blitz and thinking "Uh-oh!" Because you just knew Orton couldn't deal with it.

Teams try that with Manning and his eyes just light up like a pin-ball machine because he KNOWS he has the chance for a big play. And defenses know it too. They've learned through years of trying that you better NOT try that because Manning will make you pay. He's deadly accurate with his throws.

this needs to be said and said again until it sinks in with everybody. Most here will have heard a commentator discuss how Manning breaks every huddle with three plays called, deciding which to run after he sees the defense. In the NFL leverage is king and the difference between being in the right play vs the wrong play is huge. That's more true for an OL than any other position.

Making a player's job easier is the same as making that player better. You only critique a player on what he does in relation to what you are asking him to do. It doesn't matter if he can't do X if you don't need him to do X. There's no better way to improve a player's performance than to simplify what they have to do on the field.

With Manning the OL will likely have the formational presnap advantage, and now have a predictable QB behind them. There's a reason QBs like Elway and Big Ben take a lot of sacks: they hold on to the ball and get outside the pocket, meaning the OL doesn't know what spot he's protecting. Manning obviously isn't like that. When the ball gets snapped, the OL knows what spot they have to protect. It won't be the same spot every snap--Manning is great at moving his pocket around to make things harder on the defense--but the OL will know their QB is where he's supposed to be every play.

And of course with Manning's quick release, the blocking won't need to hold up as long. I'd like to know what the difference in release time is from when Manning/Tebow decide to throw a ball until the time the ball is on the way. Whatever amount of time it is, when we're working in 2.9 second windows, every tenth makes the OL's job easier. The easier the job is, the easier it is to be good at it.
Well, y'know, I've said Orton, and then Tebows, line sucked out loud as many times as I physically can, but had little luck getting it to sink in; the response was always that THEY sucked, but the line was great. Guess what: That excuse just went out the window (and I will lead a personal crusade to site ban the first person who tries to exonerate the failures of next seasons line by blaming Mannings injury.)


Okay, since you said "compare" I think you can compare our guys to these guys. Obviously not at current levels of play, but in potential upside.

Zimmerman-Clady: after Clady's rookie season it wasn't farfetched to see a potential HOF career. Hasn't been as good lately, but could regain his form and get back into the conversation for best LT in the game.

Sharpe-Thomas et al: poor man's for sure, but JThomas could develop into a match up nightmare. Not saying I think he'll be a future HOFer, but we've got a group of TEs that should give us production.

McCaffrey-Decker: obvious comparison.

Smith-DThomas: potentially a more explosive #1 WR. It's not fair to any young WR to try and compare their intangibles to Rod Smith's, and I'm not doing that. But with Peyton Manning at the helm, DT can provide what RS did on the field.

Need to get a TD though.
I'm going to try REALLY HARD to consider speculation about the future of a team that finished 8-8 after a 1-4 start last year, on the heels of 4-12, in terms of how it compares to back to back Super Bowl champs. I mean, seriously, this team needed two seasons to get as many wins as that team had in one, but, OK, you're hypothesizing about what they might do in the future, so I'll play along.

Clady-Zimmerman: With his injury history, and the effect it's clearly had on his game (unless he just sucks now,) it's hard to imagine him playing 13 seasons. But, yes, if the rest of his career is like the half that's been good instead of the half that's been bad, I'll buy that one.

Sharpe-Thomas: Has that dude even been on a game field yet? Shouldn't we delay ANY comparisons with a HoFer until he has?

McCaffrey-Decker: Eddie Mac was clutch; Decker seems to have forgotten HOW to clutch, not to mention get open.

Smith-DThomas: I will wait and see; I like how he finished the year, but Rod Smith is rarefied territory for me. He wasn't fast or powerful, he just ran perfect routes everytime, always found the open spot in the coverage and made incredibly difficult catchs look routine. Much like Eddie Mac and Jay Novacek, those things are worth FAR more on 3rd and 17 than a 36" vertical or 4.2 40 time.

Otherwise, yeah, they need a TD, though RB is actually the one position with which I'm comfortable (apart from the complete lack of any quality depth, unless Jeremiah Johnson comes on strong next year.) They also need a Jones, Schlereth and Nalen; that awful line Orton and Tebow had? Still here; still awful.

[Simple Jaded]

A couple options in free agency to consider might be Marcus McNeill and Andre Gurode; if McNeill is healthy, cheap and willing/able to play RT they could kick Franklin to LG, Gurode could be Walton insurance or replace him altogether.

At least I wouldn't mind seeing McNeill come in and have Walton and Beadles compete at C. Mike Klit keeps talking about Beadles/Walton like they're some kind of core of young talent, typical. But do McNeill and Gurode fit the running scheme tho?.......

[Bullgator]

Chris Kuper seems "suspect" to you? I'll give Gator fan the benefit of the doubt and assume that he's talking about Kuper returning from injury?.......

He has to show hes back 100% I have my doubts after such a serious injury... that makes him suspect to me.

[MOtorboat]

He has to show hes back 100% I have my doubts after such a serious injury... that makes him suspect to me.

Thankfully, you're rarely right.

If you have doubts, it makes me feel better.

[Simple Jaded]

He has to show hes back 100% I have my doubts after such a serious injury... that makes him suspect to me.

A broken leg makes you suspect a player but pathetic passing ability does not? So. Full. Of shit.......

[jhildebrand]

Kuper will be fine.

[topscribe]

Kuper will be fine.
In his most recent interview on The Drive, Kuper said he should be back toward the end of the OTAs, IIRC. So he seems to be coming along nicely . . .

[Cugel]

I'm going to try REALLY HARD to consider speculation about the future of a team that finished 8-8 after a 1-4 start last year, on the heels of 4-12, in terms of how it compares to back to back Super Bowl champs. I mean, seriously, this team needed two seasons to get as many wins as that team had in one, but, OK, you're hypothesizing about what they might do in the future, so I'll play along.

Clady-Zimmerman: With his injury history, and the effect it's clearly had on his game (unless he just sucks now,) it's hard to imagine him playing 13 seasons. But, yes, if the rest of his career is like the half that's been good instead of the half that's been bad, I'll buy that one.

Sharpe-Thomas: Has that dude even been on a game field yet? Shouldn't we delay ANY comparisons with a HoFer until he has?

McCaffrey-Decker: Eddie Mac was clutch; Decker seems to have forgotten HOW to clutch, not to mention get open.

Smith-DThomas: I will wait and see; I like how he finished the year, but Rod Smith is rarefied territory for me. He wasn't fast or powerful, he just ran perfect routes everytime, always found the open spot in the coverage and made incredibly difficult catchs look routine. Much like Eddie Mac and Jay Novacek, those things are worth FAR more on 3rd and 17 than a 36" vertical or 4.2 40 time.

Otherwise, yeah, they need a TD, though RB is actually the one position with which I'm comfortable (apart from the complete lack of any quality depth, unless Jeremiah Johnson comes on strong next year.) They also need a Jones, Schlereth and Nalen; that awful line Orton and Tebow had? Still here; still awful.

Can we all just agree that this Broncos team does not have ONE offensive player outside Manning who compares favorably with the SB Broncos? NONE! That team has three guys already in the HOF and two in Rod Smith and T.D. who deserve consideration, and one in Eddie Mac who was utterly reliable in doing his job as a possession receiver. Even that career ending play where he got a compound fracture of his leg he still held onto the ball!

Defensively, the Broncos have 4 players in Doom, Miller, Tracy Porter and Champ better than their '98 counterparts, but the rest of the DL? No DT equivalent to Trevor Pryce and LDE Ayers doesn't compare with Neil Smith. And no safety compares with Steve Atwater.

Right now, the Broncos are not SB contenders, despite Manning. They will need several all-pro caliber players before they can have a realistic chance of winning the SB. Hopefully they come quick before Manning's career is over.

[Cugel]

THIS is really the challenge for the OL this season. To get their heads in the game at all times:


The biggest hurdle for the Broncos (http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_20287421/defensing-broncos-peyton-manning-like-video-game-no), once they have revamped the playbook, is to develop the kind of chemistry it takes to run a no-huddle look. It's one thing for Manning to make the checks at the line of scrimmage, but his knowledge won't turn into offensive power if the other Broncos on the field don't have a good enough handle on their assignments to also change on the fly.

The OL needs to be able to pay attention at all times and know their assignments and make quick adjustments mentally to be prepared to execute on a moment's notice.

[Cugel]

Quote Originally Posted by bcbronc View Post
this needs to be said and said again until it sinks in with everybody. Most here will have heard a commentator discuss how Manning breaks every huddle with three plays called, deciding which to run after he sees the defense. In the NFL leverage is king and the difference between being in the right play vs the wrong play is huge. That's more true for an OL than any other position.

Making a player's job easier is the same as making that player better. You only critique a player on what he does in relation to what you are asking him to do. It doesn't matter if he can't do X if you don't need him to do X. There's no better way to improve a player's performance than to simplify what they have to do on the field.

With Manning the OL will likely have the formational presnap advantage, and now have a predictable QB behind them. There's a reason QBs like Elway and Big Ben take a lot of sacks: they hold on to the ball and get outside the pocket, meaning the OL doesn't know what spot he's protecting. Manning obviously isn't like that. When the ball gets snapped, the OL knows what spot they have to protect. It won't be the same spot every snap--Manning is great at moving his pocket around to make things harder on the defense--but the OL will know their QB is where he's supposed to be every play.

And of course with Manning's quick release, the blocking won't need to hold up as long. I'd like to know what the difference in release time is from when Manning/Tebow decide to throw a ball until the time the ball is on the way. Whatever amount of time it is, when we're working in 2.9 second windows, every tenth makes the OL's job easier. The easier the job is, the easier it is to be good at it.

100% correct. I wonder why anybody even doubts this. :coffee:

Obviously the Broncos are going to need an infusion of talent at multiple positions to win the SB with Manning, but they have the POTENTIAL to get there if they can get a few more weapons on offense and the OL does its job right. That requires Walton and Beadles to make HUGE strides or else step aside for someone else who will.

The OL looked a LOT better in 2008 in Cutler's last season too, despite having a bunch of young players. Defenses had to respect Cutler's arm and couldn't cheat up towards the line. And Cutler could get rid of the ball quickly. He took about 19 sacks all season. Next year with Orton and then Tebow was very different.

Defenses didn't respect either QB's arm strength and could cheat and blitz and disguise formations and coverages and expect to confuse things.

Here's coach Jeff Fisher's take on Manning after facing him all those years:


"You just can't fool him. He's going to get up under center, scan the field and he knows what you're doing," Fisher said. "It may look like you're doing something else, but he knows what you're doing. It goes beyond staring into the eyes of the safeties. He understands presnap looks, the signals, the communication. He just knows all that."

[Joel]

Can we all just agree that this Broncos team does not have ONE offensive player outside Manning who compares favorably with the SB Broncos? NONE! That team has three guys already in the HOF and two in Rod Smith and T.D. who deserve consideration, and one in Eddie Mac who was utterly reliable in doing his job as a possession receiver. Even that career ending play where he got a compound fracture of his leg he still held onto the ball!

Defensively, the Broncos have 4 players in Doom, Miller, Tracy Porter and Champ better than their '98 counterparts, but the rest of the DL? No DT equivalent to Trevor Pryce and LDE Ayers doesn't compare with Neil Smith. And no safety compares with Steve Atwater.

Right now, the Broncos are not SB contenders, despite Manning. They will need several all-pro caliber players before they can have a realistic chance of winning the SB. Hopefully they come quick before Manning's career is over.
I agree with that, and can't imagine us getting enough of the tools we need before Manning retires. The offensive line must obviously be the primary concern in that respect, because the worse our line, the sooner Manning retires. Hence this thread makes perfect sense.

[Ravage!!!]

The late 90's Broncos are mentioned in runnings for the best teams to ever play. How many Super Bowl winners (or contenders) have there been that are not considered great, NOR had the roster that hte '98 Broncos had? We've seen two in the Giants.

We don't have to have the roster of the '98 Broncos to be contenders for the Super Bowl. Are we the team to get there? I don't know, 'm alway skeptical on that considering how hard it is to get to the big dance. But the fact is, the teams that have TOP QBs are ALWAYS contenders because of the QB. Manning makes us a contender, purely by being on the roster. The Giants didn't look like a very good team for MOST of the season, but at the end, the put things together. Their roster is NOT filled with stars at ALLL. They are extremely average on the offensive side of the ball, besides Manning. They had a WR step it up this last year, but that happens with good QBs throwing the ball.

What I do know is, that we've seen teams come from BAD seasons to be Super Bowl champions in just ONE year purely because of the change at QB. Doesn't mean the odds are WITH us, but it does mean that the odds have CONSIDERABLY increased. This is an offensive league, a passing league, and we have one of the premier passers now.

Our OL isn't any worse than what Manning has been playing behind for year, save Saturday.

[CoachChaz]

Sorry...but the defense needs repaired first. I'll keep saying it. if the Giants pathetic OL can win a Super Bowl...so can the Broncos.

[Cugel]

Sorry...but the defense needs repaired first. I'll keep saying it. if the Giants pathetic OL can win a Super Bowl...so can the Broncos.

The "pathetic" Giants offense with Mario Manningham and Eli Manning? That Giants offense was actually pretty good and Eli Manning is a top 5 QB who deserves comparison with Drew Brees or Aaron Rogers. He's proven it now in 2 SBs and his detractors are now proven to be just idiots. :coffee:

This wasn't a case like 2000 when the Ravens defense won and Ray Lewis scored a TD and was the SB MVP. The Giants offense had to be good and they were. Even in their first SB Manning moved the team downfield on a last minute drive for the winning score. That wasn't totally the defense either.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Can we all just agree that this Broncos team does not have ONE offensive player outside Manning who compares favorably with the SB Broncos? NONE! That team has three guys already in the HOF and two in Rod Smith and T.D. who deserve consideration, and one in Eddie Mac who was utterly reliable in doing his job as a possession receiver. Even that career ending play where he got a compound fracture of his leg he still held onto the ball!

Defensively, the Broncos have 4 players in Doom, Miller, Tracy Porter and Champ better than their '98 counterparts, but the rest of the DL? No DT equivalent to Trevor Pryce and LDE Ayers doesn't compare with Neil Smith. And no safety compares with Steve Atwater.

Right now, the Broncos are not SB contenders, despite Manning. They will need several all-pro caliber players before they can have a realistic chance of winning the SB. Hopefully they come quick before Manning's career is over.

To be fair...nobody else in the AFC this year could stay within 10 points of those teams.

[Cugel]

The late 90's Broncos are mentioned in runnings for the best teams to ever play. How many Super Bowl winners (or contenders) have there been that are not considered great, NOR had the roster that hte '98 Broncos had? We've seen two in the Giants.

We don't have to have the roster of the '98 Broncos to be contenders for the Super Bowl. Are we the team to get there? I don't know, 'm alway skeptical on that considering how hard it is to get to the big dance. But the fact is, the teams that have TOP QBs are ALWAYS contenders because of the QB. Manning makes us a contender, purely by being on the roster. The Giants didn't look like a very good team for MOST of the season, but at the end, the put things together. Their roster is NOT filled with stars at ALLL. They are extremely average on the offensive side of the ball, besides Manning. They had a WR step it up this last year, but that happens with good QBs throwing the ball.

What I do know is, that we've seen teams come from BAD seasons to be Super Bowl champions in just ONE year purely because of the change at QB. Doesn't mean the odds are WITH us, but it does mean that the odds have CONSIDERABLY increased. This is an offensive league, a passing league, and we have one of the premier passers now.

Our OL isn't any worse than what Manning has been playing behind for year, save Saturday.

Of course you are right Ravage. I'm not arguing that the Broncos need to have 4 or 5 Hall of Fame caliber players on their team before they can win a SB!

When was the last team to do that other than the 97-98 Broncos? Well, probably the Cowboys that won 3 SBs with Emmitt Smith and Troy Aikman, Michael Irvin and that defense.

Probably to win multiple SBs you need multiple HOFers. But to win 1 you probably don't. I don't know how many HOF players the Saints have other than maybe Drew Brees. The Packers might have a few which is why they are considered the best team in football. The Patriots have a couple guys who will be considered aside from Brady. Same thing.

What I suggest is that the Broncos need a couple of A-Grade All-pro type players. Guys who are good or have an outstanding season, but aren't necessarily HOF caliber because they don't do it over a LOT of seasons, consistently. A player who comes to mind is Plaxico Burress in 2007. Pro-bowl caliber? Sure he was, some years (but not others). HOF? Never in Hell.

Broncos already have two all-pro caliber players in Von Miller and Doom. Champ Bailey will certainly be in Canton when his career is done. He's played in 10 pro-bowls and has numerous awards.

Personnel wise, the Broncos aren't that far away from being competitive with the top teams in the league (other than perhaps the Packers). They just need a couple of real weapons and to strengthen their OL and DTs. A WR with talent like Brandon Marshall (and who doesn't get into endless domestic violence disputes with his girl-friends) would be a huge step up.

When Manning was successful he had Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne and Edgerin James. The Broncos need more players like that and fewer like "No-show" Moreno. They could even pick up a couple of useful veterans this summer who were cut from their teams the way they did Casey Weigman a few years ago.

[topscribe]

Can we all just agree that this Broncos team does not have ONE offensive player outside Manning who compares favorably with the SB Broncos? NONE! That team has three guys already in the HOF and two in Rod Smith and T.D. who deserve consideration, and one in Eddie Mac who was utterly reliable in doing his job as a possession receiver. Even that career ending play where he got a compound fracture of his leg he still held onto the ball!

Defensively, the Broncos have 4 players in Doom, Miller, Tracy Porter and Champ better than their '98 counterparts, but the rest of the DL? No DT equivalent to Trevor Pryce and LDE Ayers doesn't compare with Neil Smith. And no safety compares with Steve Atwater.

Right now, the Broncos are not SB contenders, despite Manning. They will need several all-pro caliber players before they can have a realistic chance of winning the SB. Hopefully they come quick before Manning's career is over.
Cug, you're going by last year's team (although Clady is the other offensive player who does compare, and possibly Kuper). We don't know what the Broncos will have this year. DT could break out. So could Decker. What if the Broncos draft, say, Martin, and he joins McGahee as a two-headed monster? They don't have Sharpe, true, but the TE corps may now be superior to most others in the league with Tamme, Dreessen, and J. Thomas.

The Broncos probably will draft a DT in the first round. Ayers could break out -- actually, I expect him to. Safety has been significantly upgraded with Adams, and Quinton Carter showed beast-esque flashes at SS last year.

I know it's all "what-ifs," but that's just the point. We just don't know what the Broncos will have this year. That's all I'm saying . . .

[Cugel]

Cug, you're going by last year's team (although Clady is the other offensive player who does compare, and possibly Kuper). We don't know what the Broncos will have this year. DT could break out. So could Decker. What if the Broncos draft, say, Martin, and he joins McGahee as a two-headed monster? They don't have Sharpe, true, but the TE corps may now be superior to most others in the league with Tamme, Dreessen, and J. Thomas.

The Broncos probably will draft a DT in the first round. Ayers could break out -- actually, I expect him to. Safety has been significantly upgraded with Adams, and Quinton Carter showed beast-esque flashes at SS last year.

I know it's all "what-ifs," but that's just the point. We just don't know what the Broncos will have this year. That's all I'm saying . . .

Obviously you can't be SURE what will happen from year to year, that's why they play the games. And if magic pixie dust settles on all those players you mention, then yes, they could suddenly look like a juggernaut.

http://th02.deviantart.net/fs17/300W/i/2007/214/9/7/pixie__s_magic_______by_mehmeturgut.jpg

Somehow, I'm not going to hold my breath unless there's more signs of a metamorphosis. Personally, I don't expect much from Decker. He's a utility player rather like Eddie Royal (who was continually expected to "break out" and never did and never will). Useful if you don't expect too much. Thomas has never been healthy. Let's see him stay out of the trainer's room this year before we anoint him with oil.

As for Quinton Carter, he played reasonably well for a rookie. Let's see if he continues to develop. Same thing for Von Miller. Will he become an All-Pro? Or will his rookie year be a one-off like a lot of players. I'm hoping the former, but we don't know.

There are just as many players who might take a step back as a step forward.

The bottom line is that this Broncos team is a few players away from real SB contention IF everything goes as planned. If players DON'T develop as they hope it's more like 6-10 players away. :coffee:

[Joel]

Obviously you can't be SURE what will happen from year to year, that's why they play the games. And if magic pixie dust settles on all those players you mention, then yes, they could suddenly look like a juggernaut. http://th02.deviantart.net/fs17/300W/i/2007/214/9/7/pixie__s_magic_______by_mehmeturgut.jpgSomehow, I'm not going to hold my breath unless there's more signs of a metamorphosis. Personally, I don't expect much from Decker. He's a utility player rather like Eddie Royal (who was continually expected to "break out" and never did and never will). Useful if you don't expect too much. Thomas has never been healthy. Let's see him stay out of the trainer's room this year before we anoint him with oil. As for Quinton Carter, he played reasonably well for a rookie. Let's see if he continues to develop. Same thing for Von Miller. Will he become an All-Pro? Or will his rookie year be a one-off like a lot of players. I'm hoping the former, but we don't know. There are just as many players who might take a step back as a step forward. The bottom line is that this Broncos team is a few players away from real SB contention IF everything goes as planned. If players DON'T develop as they hope it's more like 6-10 players away. :coffee:This is pretty much where I'm at, and I just don't see it happening before Manning retires, even in a best case scenario. We have a lot of youth at many positions, so it's hard to predict what they'll do, but unless our scouts are much better than their record indicates we'll end up with as many busts as booms.The offense needs more work than the D, IMHO, but the D still needs playmakers on the interior line, at MLB and at safety; it's just that the offense has almost nothing apart from Manning and McGahee. Within nothing at the core of our offense OR defense, and no scoring threats on the former, the Broncos are still very much a work in progress. A solid offensive line would give Manning the time to find someone to force into the spotlight (possibly Decker, but history makes Dreesen more likely) rather than relying on Thomas, who will just draw double coverage if he proves that's necessary.

[Simple Jaded]

The Broncos got to within 2 games of the SB with absolute garbage for a passing game, people who insist that the Broncos are worse off now are out of their frekking minds. The trick will be competing with an even better NE team, the Broncos are now infinitely better equiped to compete with the Patriots than they were 3 months ago. The Broncos admit they still have a lot of work to do, but if Manning is healthy they've gone from the worst QB situation in the league to one of the best.

Btw, if the Broncos are that far away from competing for SB's with Manning what F was with all the urgency to stick with the last QB they had? Personally, l'll reserve judgement on the young players on offense until l see them with a legitimate QB to throw them the ball.......

[Ravage!!!]

When Manning was successful he had Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne and Edgerin James. The Broncos need more players like that and fewer like "No-show" Moreno. They could even pick up a couple of useful veterans this summer who were cut from their teams the way they did Casey Weigman a few years ago.

I pretty much agree with everything you said in your post, except this statement. They won to a Super Bowl without a RB anywhere NEAR the likes of Edgerin James, and went to a second one without Harrison and James. Not to mention, winning 10+ games every season without those guys.

[Ravage!!!]

Personally, l'll reserve judgement on the young players on offense until l see them with a legitimate QB to throw them the ball.......

This is why I laugh at all those complaining about Decker. He was having a GREAT year when throwing QBs were in the line-up. Then people want to complain they felt he was "awful" with Tebow throwing the ball. The QB makes all the difference in the world, and I think Decker is going to be MORE than fine as a #2

[Cugel]

This is why I laugh at all those complaining about Decker. He was having a GREAT year when throwing QBs were in the line-up. Then people want to complain they felt he was "awful" with Tebow throwing the ball. The QB makes all the difference in the world, and I think Decker is going to be MORE than fine as a #2

I don't think Decker will be the #2 WR. It's going to be Andre Caldwell and Thomas. Often they will line up with 2 TEs and a wide-out. I think Decker is going to have to perform at a high level just to get on the field.

Caldwell has a lot more speed, although he's never proven to be a break-out WR either. But, he has more potential than Decker. I can see Manning trying to develop Caldwell and Thomas into a real threat. Both have good speed and pose a real threat because Manning can hit them in stride with the ball on deep throws.

That's a HUGE difference from the last 2 seasons. Decker's main attribute has been grabbing wildly thrown balls and hanging on. That won't be as much of an asset now.

[Ravage!!!]

I don't think Decker will be the #2 WR. It's going to be Andre Caldwell and Thomas. Often they will line up with 2 TEs and a wide-out. I think Decker is going to have to perform at a high level just to get on the field.

Caldwell has a lot more speed, although he's never proven to be a break-out WR either. But, he has more potential than Decker. I can see Manning trying to develop Caldwell and Thomas into a real threat. Both have good speed and pose a real threat because Manning can hit them in stride with the ball on deep throws.

That's a HUGE difference from the last 2 seasons. Decker's main attribute has been grabbing wildly thrown balls and hanging on. That won't be as much of an asset now.

We'll just have to disagree. I think Decker is better than you give him credit for. Decker proved to be our lone asset when Thomas was hurt and Orton was teh QB. I think Decker proved that he is very much a viable receiver, and Caldwell hasn't proved to be a bigger 'potential' as of yet in their careers.

[Joel]

Btw, if the Broncos are that far away from competing for SB's with Manning what F was with all the urgency to stick with the last QB they had? Personally, l'll reserve judgement on the young players on offense until l see them with a legitimate QB to throw them the ball.......
I can't speak for others, but I felt no urgency to stick with Tebow; I was perfectly fine with bringing in Manning for the next couple years as long as we kept Tebow. Dropping $20 million/year on Manning for a couple years, trading Tebow (and his $1.5 million contract next year) for peanuts and signing Caleb Hanie makes a lot less sense. With Tebow I figured we had the luxury of needed time to acquire needed stars before our QB received his pension, which might include drafting a different franchise QB.

With Manning, it's now or never, while he eats1/6th of our cap space annually. We better HOPE he's his old self, because unless he's good enough to justify playing with a $100 million salary cap while everyone else has $120 million, he's not a net asset.

[Canmore]

I can't speak for others, but I felt no urgency to stick with Tebow; I was perfectly fine with bringing in Manning for the next couple years as long as we kept Tebow. Dropping $20 million/year on Manning for a couple years, trading Tebow (and his $1.5 million contract next year) for peanuts and signing Caleb Hanie makes a lot less sense. With Tebow I figured we had the luxury of needed time to acquire needed stars before our QB received his pension, which might include drafting a different franchise QB.

With Manning, it's now or never, while he eats1/6th of our cap space annually. We better HOPE he's his old self, because unless he's good enough to justify playing with a $100 million salary cap while everyone else has $120 million, he's not a net asset.

Franchise Quarterbacks cost $16.4 million, at least that's what the franchise tag costs. We are hardly playing with a $100 million cap while others play with $120 million. If he is his old self, we got a bargain. If not...

[Ravage!!!]

I can't speak for others, but I felt no urgency to stick with Tebow; I was perfectly fine with bringing in Manning for the next couple years as long as we kept Tebow. Dropping $20 million/year on Manning for a couple years, trading Tebow (and his $1.5 million contract next year) for peanuts and signing Caleb Hanie makes a lot less sense. With Tebow I figured we had the luxury of needed time to acquire needed stars before our QB received his pension, which might include drafting a different franchise QB.

With Manning, it's now or never, while he eats1/6th of our cap space annually. We better HOPE he's his old self, because unless he's good enough to justify playing with a $100 million salary cap while everyone else has $120 million, he's not a net asset.

Teams never keep the incumbent QB when they bring someone else in to be the starter. It already causes controversy from day one, and that doesn't count the ridiculous Tebow fanatics that are bound to look for any and all opportunity to cry for him to start. So Tebow going, is the norm.

That being said, we are hardly playing at some disadvantage with Manning at QB. We WERE playing at a disadvantage with prior QBs behind center.

[Joel]

Franchise Quarterbacks cost $16.4 million, at least that's what the franchise tag costs. We are hardly playing with a $100 million cap while others play with $120 million. If he is his old self, we got a bargain. If not...
FAs cost that much, yeah; it's easily the most obvious position where the best command so much cash it's always preferable to draft or trade rather than bid for them. Unfortunately, Denver has a poor record there; we traded for Elway when he refused to play for Indy (and gave him a record shattering contract,) but otherwise the best Denver's done is Cutler, quickly traded away after, what, two seasons?


Teams never keep the incumbent QB when they bring someone else in to be the starter. It already causes controversy from day one, and that doesn't count the ridiculous Tebow fanatics that are bound to look for any and all opportunity to cry for him to start. So Tebow going, is the norm.

That being said, we are hardly playing at some disadvantage with Manning at QB. We WERE playing at a disadvantage with prior QBs behind center.
The one good thing about getting Manning and dumping Tebow is that discussions of the offensive line and receivers will no longer deteriorate into Haterade vs. Gatorade drinkers. Meanwhile: Hanie's our backup QB.

[Canmore]

FAs cost that much, yeah; it's easily the most obvious position where the best command so much cash it's always preferable to draft or trade rather than bid for them. Unfortunately, Denver has a poor record there; we traded for Elway when he refused to play for Indy (and gave him a record shattering contract,) but otherwise the best Denver's done is Cutler, quickly traded away after, what, two seasons?


The one good thing about getting Manning and dumping Tebow is that discussions of the offensive line and receivers will no longer deteriorate into Haterade vs. Gatorade drinkers.

Cutler lasted three seasons, two as the starter and his rookie campaign where he relieved Plummer.

Franchise quarterbacks cost $15 to $20 million and except for Manning they never see free agency. Brees may well be the exception. It is getting ugly in New Orleans.

We will live or die with Manning. As for the offensive line and receiving corps, time will tell.

[Bugs Baloney]

a i stated in another forum:


"Well,...if we have Harris, (too lazy to do the research), put him back out at RT,
Throw Franklin back in to his natural position at Guard,
Continue to work with Walton. (never know, may have his best season yet?)
Replace Beadles, but only if there is an upgrade through the draft or FA.
Clady of course stays at LT and has another dominating season. (like his rookie season: "Fingers Crossed")

Overall, thats a damn fine o-line! "

I'd go with a solid B+ :cool:

[Cugel]

They picked him up in January after Kuper's injury:


Broncos signed OT Ryan Harris, formerly of the Eagles. (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/4457/ryan-harris)
Harris, 27 in March, was released at final cuts in Philly with an injury settlement after undergoing back surgery. Following Chris Kuper's injury, Harris will serve as depth during what may be a short-lived Denver playoff run. Jan 2 - 5:20 PM

Of course it remains to be determined how good he'll be after his back surgery. Didn't even notice him in the playoffs, but Denver's OL wasn't great against the Patriots.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Harris can't be depended on. This isn't his first back problem.

[Simple Jaded]

FAs cost that much, yeah; it's easily the most obvious position where the best command so much cash it's always preferable to draft or trade rather than bid for them. Unfortunately, Denver has a poor record there; we traded for Elway when he refused to play for Indy (and gave him a record shattering contract,) but otherwise the best Denver's done is Cutler, quickly traded away after, what, two seasons?


The one good thing about getting Manning and dumping Tebow is that discussions of the offensive line and receivers will no longer deteriorate into Haterade vs. Gatorade drinkers. Meanwhile: Hanie's our backup QB.

The ONE good thing? You can only think of one good thing about upgrading the QB position? Meanwhile, Hanie can throw to more than just a couple route, so l guess there's one good thing about upgrading the backup QB position too.......

[Simple Jaded]

I can't speak for others, but I felt no urgency to stick with Tebow; I was perfectly fine with bringing in Manning for the next couple years as long as we kept Tebow. Dropping $20 million/year on Manning for a couple years, trading Tebow (and his $1.5 million contract next year) for peanuts and signing Caleb Hanie makes a lot less sense. With Tebow I figured we had the luxury of needed time to acquire needed stars before our QB received his pension, which might include drafting a different franchise QB.

With Manning, it's now or never, while he eats1/6th of our cap space annually. We better HOPE he's his old self, because unless he's good enough to justify playing with a $100 million salary cap while everyone else has $120 million, he's not a net asset.You can't keep Tebow unless he is your starter, unfortunately he has a backups skill set. I think his fans might wanna consider the very real possibility that the Broncos jumped at the chance to get out from under Tebowmania. If I'm relieved that the circus has left town I can't imagine how relieved the Broncos have to be. And I don't get millions of death threats and hate emails at the tiniest slight or criticism towards Tebow.

I can't think of a single legitimate reason for Denver to hang on to Tim Tebow. They got a 4th for Tebow and got an equally inept backup for nothing, it makes a ton of sense.

But you missed the point of my question, if the Broncos are really that far from competing for SB's with one the best QB's on the planet, what was so appealing about building around the worst passer in the entire league? If you go with Tebow you're even further from competing for SB's and you're criminally deficient at the most important position on the field.......

[Simple Jaded]

Harris can't be depended on. This isn't his first back problem.

Talent-wise l think Harris makes an ideal swing tackle, borderline starter talent in any system. But even at that he's a gamble.......

[Canmore]

Talent-wise l think Harris makes an ideal swing tackle, borderline starter talent in any system. But even at that he's a gamble.......

Yes, Harris is a gamble, but when he is healthy, he is excellent. Problem is I don't think he has been healthy since 2008.

[Cugel]

You don't get the feeling that Harris is being considered as a starter by the Broncos. If he's not healthy he might not make the 53 man roster.

Remember that they signed him as an emergency hire after Kuper's season ending injury. He was available and they signed him.

That sort of situation has arisen before. I seem to remember a certain RB who was signed by Mike Shanahan while he was out of football and working at a photo kiosk! He was a former Bronco and knew the plays. The next week he was starting due to all the injuries to the RBs. He didn't stick around the next season though.

Unless Harris is able to bounce back healthy I'd be surprised if he's in their long-range plans, much less being considered as a starter at RT like some people want to see.

Sure, if he regained his form from 2008 he could be a starter. But how many of us can regain our form from past years?

Personally, I'd like to "regain my form" from 1988, but that's about equally unlikely. :sad:

[MOtorboat]

The point is you have ALL YOUR HOPE in a 37 year old with NECK PROBLEMS. Sell your ******* house and upgrade your Oline and protect him at ALL COSTS.

Its great he can do those things but in the end he cannot block for them.

I dont care that he can ease some pressure with the presnap calls and what have you. He and you cant afford to get hurt period...

Make this your sig, mark my words and the whole 9.... IF the line does not improve personnel wise manning wont finish the season.

Oh, this IS fun...

[chazoe60]

Let it go, MO. Good God Tebow haters are every bit as annoying as Tebow fanbois.

[MOtorboat]

He has to show hes back 100% I have my doubts after such a serious injury... that makes him suspect to me.

Good call!

[MOtorboat]

Let it go, MO. Good God Tebow haters are every bit as annoying as Tebow fanbois.

Post more about Rahim Moore.

Or maybe make some more birthday threads.

[topscribe]

Let it go, MO. Good God Tebow haters are every bit as annoying as Tebow fanbois.
Kyle Orton, Rahim Moore.

How's your blood pressure now? :D
.

[chazoe60]

Post more about Rahim Moore.

Or maybe make some more birthday threads.

My posts about Rahim Moore are a drop in the bucket compared to your Tebow shit, and Rahim actually vost us a playoff game.

[MOtorboat]

My posts about Rahim Moore are a drop in the bucket compared to your Tebow shit, and Rahim actually vost us a playoff game.

Tebow did too, lol...it's amazing how many people forget that New England bent Denver over, and it was because Denver had an inadequate quarterback...

[topscribe]

My posts about Rahim Moore are a drop in the bucket compared to your Tebow shit, and Rahim actually vost us a playoff game.
And Tebow would not have had a playoff game, had it not been for the defense.
.

[chazoe60]

Oh good God!!!



**** it! Tebow sux. Rahim Moore and Kyle Orton are two of the greatest things to ever happen to the Broncos.

[topscribe]

Oh good God!!!



**** it! Tebow sux. Rahim Moore and Kyle Orton are two of the greatest things to ever happen to the Broncos.
LOL - Just messin' with ya, Chaz. :D
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Chaz is essentially OR now. How sad.

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Chaz is essentially OR now. How sad.
Nah. I would never label Chaz with that. We all have our buttons.

I proudly wore mine. It said "Kyle Orton." :D
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