Broncos to work out USC's Sanchez

[Denver Native (Carol)]

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_12165975?source=rss

The Broncos are not going to let the upcoming draft pass without making a serious evaluation of Mark Sanchez.

According to an NFL source, Broncos coach Josh McDaniels and general manager Brian Xanders have scheduled a private workout with the USC quarterback for next Tuesday.

The Broncos have the No. 12 and 18 picks in the first round, plus an extra third-round selection if they want to move up to select Sanchez, who figures to go somewhere in the top 10.

The source said the private workout doesn't necessarily mean the Broncos have identified Sanchez as their primary target in the NFL draft that will commence next Saturday. Instead, the Broncos are merely playing catch up in scouting a position that wasn't considered a strong need until they felt forced to grant Jay Cutler's trade request earlier this month.

Cutler, the Broncos' starting quarterback dating back to late in the 2006 season, was dealt along with a fifth-round pick earlier this month to the Chicago Bears in exchange for quarterback Kyle Orton, the No. 18 pick in this year's draft, a third-round pick, and a first-round pick in 2010.

The Broncos' held their first veteran minicamp session today with Orton and Chris Simms as their only quarterbacks. That means even if it's not Sanchez in the first round, there is a good chance the Broncos will come away with a quarterback from this draft.

"We've evaluated all the quarterbacks in this draft and there's more than a handful that are pretty good players and would fit in and play well in this league and for our team," McDaniels said today after the team's minicamp practice. "If it fit right where we had to draft a player, then we would be interested in drafting a quarterback if that would help us."

[spikerman]

While I don't think either Orton or Simms are the long term answer at QB, I think that if the Broncos draft a QB in the first round then we have to admit that the trade was a mistake.

[Nomad]

Stay away from the temptation Josh!!! Next year's QB class will be better, if these 2 QBs don't pan out!!
DEFENSE!!!!

[powderaddict]

Gotta at least do their due dilligence.

At least kick the tires, look the kid over. If he does fall to them at 12, they should at least have an idea before selecting him or passing.

[Benetto]

Smoke Screens......

[underrated29]

** Please be a smoke screen** ** Please be a smoke screen**


Please please please please please please please.

:halo:

[UnderArmour]

Smoke Screens......

Bingo. We've forced the Washington Redskins/Other team to trade up just by working him out. Of course, this is all assuming the Seahawks, who have scouted him heavily, decide to pass on him.

[DenBronx]

"resist the devil and he will flee"

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Eh...hopefully the reports of Seattle wanting Sanchez are true.

[claymore]

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

[EMB6903]

Hopefully he falls to Denver and they draft him.

Denver needs a Quarterback as much as any other position.... Because Orton nor Simms are long term options.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I gotta say I'd understand if we took him at 12...I just don't even want it to be an option. Seattle taking him would also remove any thoughts of trading up a few spots for him.

[Benetto]

Hopefully he falls to Denver and they draft him.

Denver needs a Quarterback as much as any other position.... Because Orton nor Simms are long term options.


The patriots also needed a QB when Drew Bledsoe got injured before the playoffs....Thank god for them they had a 7th round pick in the draft before...

[underrated29]

Hopefully he falls to Denver and they draft him.

Denver needs a Quarterback as much as any other position.... Because Orton nor Simms are long term options.



Just so you know april 1st was about 15 days ago....

Dont mind him Josh, he was out of town for a while and got the dates mixed up.

[claymore]

Hopefully he falls to Denver and they draft him.

Denver needs a Quarterback as much as any other position.... Because Orton nor Simms are long term options.

You dont know that.

[Den21vsBal19]

Hopefully he falls to Denver and they draft him.

Denver needs a Quarterback as much as any other position.... Because Orton nor Simms are long term options.
We've tried it that way with Cutler, and got three years of mediocrity...................

Let's splurge on D and see if we can get a team where the QB doesn't have to win every game

[EMB6903]

The patriots also needed a QB when Drew Bledsoe got injured before the playoffs....Thank god for them they had a 7th round pick in the draft before...

ya I really wish it was that easy.... to find a Tom Brady in the late rounds or a Kurt Warner and Tony Romo as undrafted players.... but it just isnt like that.... Its just not realistic to think we are going to get a franchise caller in the late rounds.

[EMB6903]

We've tried it that way with Cutler, and got three years of mediocrity...................

Let's splurge on D and see if we can get a team where the QB doesn't have to win every game

Cutler was solid in his first 3 years..he definately exceeded my expectations.

did you expect him to throw for 100 TD's and 12k the first 37 games in his career?

(please dont bring up wins... again...its a TEAM GAME...a 53 man team,dont pin it on 1 player)

[Benetto]

I remember when the Ravens had 2 first round picks and were in need of Defense... Cough..Ray lewis, Cough Jon Ogden...

They won a Superbowl with Trent Dilfer and those 2 1st round picks on Defense and O line. we already have a Probowl caliber Olinemen.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Cutler was the shiz...and yeah, I did expect that from him. If a dude can take VANDERBILT into Knoxville and beat the Vols...he's pretty friggin good.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I remember when the Ravens had 2 first round picks and were in need of Defense... Cough..Ray lewis, Cough Jon Ogden...

They won a Superbowl with Trent Dilfer and those 2 1st round picks on Defense.
But we don't need Oline.

[Benetto]

But we don't need Oline.


Check my edited post brotha.

[Benetto]

Rey Rey and Tyson would be my faves in the first rd...On the other hand I have always loved BJ's.

[Bill Devaroe]

You dont know that.

I do. They both suck.

Use #12 to trade for Ocho Cinco

Use 18 to get Lemon or Garrad.

Use the rest for defense and we will be fine.
:elefant:

[EMB6903]

I remember when the Ravens had 2 first round picks and were in need of Defense... Cough..Ray lewis, Cough Jon Ogden...

They won a Superbowl with Trent Dilfer and those 2 1st round picks on Defense and O line. we already have a Probowl calibur Olinemen.

all this is irrelivent...but if you want to go down this road....

I remember when Indy needed a Quarterback and defense and drafted Peyton Manning

I remember when Denver needed a defense in 1983 and traded for the rights to John Elway

I remember when the Steelers needed a Quarterback and drafted Ben Roethlisberger

I remember when Giants needed both a QB and defense then drafted Eli Manning...

I can keep going if you like....

[claymore]

all this is irrelivent...but if you want to go down this road....

I remember when Indy needed a Quarterback and defense and drafted Peyton Manning

I remember when Denver needed a defense in 1983 and traded for the rights to John Elway

I remember when the Steelers needed a Quarterback and drafted Ben Roethlisberger

I remember when Giants needed both a QB and defense then drafted Eli Manning...

I can keep going if you like....
I remember when the 2009 Broncos needed a Defense and traded their QB.

[Benetto]

all this is irrelivent...but if you want to go down this road....

I remember when Indy needed a Quarterback and defense and drafted Peyton Manning

I remember when Denver needed a defense in 1983 and traded for the rights to John Elway

I remember when the Steelers needed a Quarterback and drafted Ben Roethlisberger

I remember when Giants needed both a QB and defense then drafted Eli Manning...

I can keep going if you like....

My point was, that it is possible to come up big without having to pay top 12 money to a Junior in college who had the world of talent around him in his program...

If I like or dont like you will keep going on and on with your irrelivent comparisons (each of those teams had a dominant defense).., so what difference does it make?

[EMB6903]

I remember when the 2009 Broncos needed a Defense and traded their QB.

ahh... the good ol' days...

[claymore]

I do. They both suck.

Use #12 to trade for Ocho Cinco

Use 18 to get Lemon or Garrad.

Use the rest for defense and we will be fine.
:elefant:

Bill, as much as everyone loves you, you are on thin ice with me and might get a neg rep.......


Signed,

:wickedburn:

:werd:

[claymore]

ahh... the good ol' days...

We dont need no stinkin Sanchez.

[Den21vsBal19]

Cutler was solid in his first 3 years..he definately exceeded my expectations.

did you expect him to throw for 100 TD's and 12k the first 37 games in his career?

(please dont bring up wins... again...its a TEAM GAME...a 53 man team,dont pin it on 1 player)
I meant the team was mediocre, not Cutler............although he certainly played his part in some of the losses

But we;ve now brought in a cometent QB, that seems to be the guy that McD wants, and have more chance of improving the team through the draft...................sometimes you have to take one step back to take two forwards

[EMB6903]

My point was, that it is possible to come up big without having to pay top 12 money to a Junior in college who had the world of talent around him in his program...

If I like or dont like you will keep going on and on with your irrelivent comparisons (each of those teams had a dominant defense).., so what difference does it make?

had the world of talent around his program? Isnt your favorite prospect from USC?

Im pretty sure Maualuga didnt get touched playing behind Sedrick Ellis, Everson Griffin, Fili Miola, and Lawrence Jackson... and playing aside Rivers, Cushing, and Matthews.... all NFL 1st day prospects... and thats just in the front 7... You would think a person like you would stay away from Maualuga just over that reason... since you judge a player on how talented the team around him is.

edit... each one of those teams had a dominant defense?

Lets give that a look...

the year before the Colts drafted Peyton Manning the defense was ranked 26th in points allowed.

the year before the Giants drafted Eli Manning their defense was ranked 29th in points allowed.

the year before Broncos drafted John Elway their defense was ranked 25th in points allowed.

tell me how these teams had dominant defenses... I'd love to hear this one.

[EMB6903]

I meant the team was mediocre, not Cutler............although he certainly played his part in some of the losses

But we;ve now brought in a cometent QB, that seems to be the guy that McD wants, and have more chance of improving the team through the draft...................sometimes you have to take one step back to take two forwards

Im not to sure I believe that Mcdaniels thinks Orton or Simms are going to be the starter in Denver longer than 2 years.... I certainly hope not... and Im all for improving the team... and I think drafting Mark Sanchez would improve this team.

we still have 4 of the first 100 picks after #12... its not like we have to go defense #12 or we are screwed for the next 5 years.... because its a lot easier to find a solid defensive talent in the later rounds than it is a franchise signal caller...wouldnt you agree?

[Benetto]

had the world of talent around his program? Isnt your favorite prospect from USC?

Im pretty sure Maualuga didnt get touched playing behind Sedrick Ellis, Everson Griffin, Fili Miola, and Lawrence Jackson... and playing aside Rivers, Cushing, and Matthews.... all NFL 1st day prospects... and thats just in the front 7... You would think a person like you would stay away from Maualuga just over that reason... since you judge a player on how talented the team around him is.
The talent I was talking about was Rey and co. You solidified my point exactly...Thanks.

BTW...Sanchez is only a prospective 1st rounder only cause the class of Qbs in this draft is shitty...O nthe other hand, all his teamates in the first round deserve to be there.

[Benetto]

EMB6903, sounds like you only want a high profile QB to bragg about to your friends or co-workers...Doesnt matter what they have done, only that they are 1st round picks...

Just another 97/98 clinger if you ask me.

[EMB6903]

EMB6903, sounds like you only want a high profile QB to bragg about to your friends or co-workers...Doesnt matter what they have done, only that they are 1st round picks...

Just another 97/98 clinger if you ask me.

can you explain your reasoning behind hating on a player because of the talent around him... and than thinking Maualuga is the best prospect in the draft?

and again.... tell me which teams I named that had dominant defenses before drafting a high profiled QB?

and wtf? to brag to my friends and co- workers? what are you 11?

I want a franchise QB because the history of teams that dont have a great quarterback are unlikely to be successful... yes theres the 85 bears... 2000 ravens and 2002 Bucs... but aside from that you couldnt name me 5 other teams in NFL history that have won a superbowl without a great QB

[Magnificent Seven]

Sanchez sucks. He will be next Matt Leinart.

[EMB6903]

The talent I was talking about was Rey and co. You solidified my point exactly...Thanks.

BTW...Sanchez is only a prospective 1st rounder only cause the class of Qbs in this draft is shitty...O nthe other hand, all his teamates in the first round deserve to be there.


the class of QB's this year is shitty?

is that why 3 QB's are projected to go in the top 20 picks?

those are "shitty" QB prospects?

riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...

[EMB6903]

Sanchez sucks. He will be next Matt Leinart.

why does SAnchez suck?

[SmilinAssasSin27]

The talent I was talking about was Rey and co. You solidified my point exactly...Thanks.

BTW...Sanchez is only a prospective 1st rounder only cause the class of Qbs in this draft is shitty...O nthe other hand, all his teamates in the first round deserve to be there.

Clay Matthews? really? I gotta call bullshit on that one.

[EMB6903]

Maualuga, Cushing, and Matthews deserve to be 1st round prospects but Sanchez doesnt?

you are talking out of your ass right now.... no offense.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

can you explain your reasoning behind hating on a player because of the talent around him... and than thinking Maualuga is the best prospect in the draft?

and again.... tell me which teams I named that had dominant defenses before drafting a high profiled QB?

and wtf? to brag to my friends and co- workers? what are you 11?

I want a franchise QB because the history of teams that dont have a great quarterback are unlikely to be successful... yes theres the 85 bears... 2000 ravens and 2002 Bucs... but aside from that you couldnt name me 5 other teams in NFL history that have won a superbowl without a great QB

Mark Rypien
Doug Williams
Jeff Hostetler
anyone got 2 more?

[Benetto]

Clay Matthews? really? I gotta call bullshit on that one.


Guilty as charged...Not all USC prospects are the shit...

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Jim Plunkett

[TXBRONC]

I think most of us are expecting that McDaniels is going to draft defense early and often. I do expect him to draft offensive including a quarterback but right now I don't think it will be early in the draft. However what do you if the best player on the board at let say at the 18 pick is offensive player and you can't find a trade partner?

[Benetto]

the class of QB's this year is shitty?

is that why 3 QB's are projected to go in the top 20 picks?

those are "shitty" QB prospects?

riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...


How many teams are in need of a QB? How many teams have no choice but to go QB cause its their main concern?

If I am talking out of my ass, then you must be talking out of your colon, because it is producing shit.

[EMB6903]

I think none of us know what Mcdaniels is gonna do at this point... and most are over looking the need at Quarterback.... which as Ive said before is hilarious

were fine with Orton and Simms?

just because we have 2 QB's on the roster means we are cool for another year?

thats like saying we are fine on the defensive line because we have Thomas, Powell, Moss, Crowder, Fields, and Dumervil...

[EMB6903]

How many teams are in need of a QB? How many teams have no choice but to go QB cause its their main concern?

If I am talking out of my ass, then you must be talking out of your colon, because it is producing shit.

thats complete BS... half the league every single year is in need of a Quarterback during the draft... and you certainly dont see 3 QB's taken in the 1st 20 picks every single year....Seahawks and Jags are looking at Sanchez as their first picks... do they need a quarterback as of right now?


and quick duckin the question.... you said the teams I named that drafted 1st round QB's had dominant defenses... aside from Pittsburgh... what teams?

Denver certainly didnt when they drafted elway.... Indy didnt when they drafted Peyton....Giants didnt when they drafted Eli.

Explain.

[Benetto]

Seahawks are looking at Sanchez as their first pick... do they need a quarterback?
Hell yeah they do, Who is at the end of his career and how many games did he play last year? chrome dome.

Who's after him?

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Hell yeah they do, Who is at the end of his career and how many games did he play last year? chrome dome.

Who's after him?

They don't NEED a QB, but they know they will. Would you rather have Couch, Carr or Rogers? Only difference among the 3 is that Rogers got to sit and learn for a bit.

[EMB6903]

Hell yeah they do, Who is at the end of his career and how many games did he play last year? chrome dome.

Who's after him?

Matt Hasselbeck played hurt the entire time he played last year... hes still a very sharpe QB and 33 isnt that old for a QB...

question

do you actually watch football or just talk out of your ass 24-7?

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Eli is not GREAT either. Was Phil Simms?

Now the list of SB losing QBs includes:
Rex Grossman
Matt Hasselbeck
Jake Delhomme
Rich Gannon
Kerry Collins
Chris Chandler
Neil O'Donnell
Stan Humphries
Tony Eason...and so on...

Point is, your team can get to the SB, and even win it, w/o a HOF QB.

[claymore]

Clay Matthews? really? I gotta call bullshit on that one.
He has name recognition and has been suspected of steroids if i am not mistaken. I like the kid though.

Maualuga, Cushing, and Matthews deserve to be 1st round prospects but Sanchez doesnt?

you are talking out of your ass right now.... no offense.How many starts does sanchez have? 12?


How many teams are in need of a QB? How many teams have no choice but to go QB cause its their main concern?

If I am talking out of my ass, then you must be talking out of your colon, because it is producing shit.10 teams need a starting QB 11 if you count us. :D Hopefully we arent counting, but I would rather get one next year.


I think none of us know what Mcdaniels is gonna do at this point... and most are over looking the need at Quarterback.... which as Ive said before is hilarious

were fine with Orton and Simms?

just because we have 2 QB's on the roster means we are cool for another year?

thats like saying we are fine on the defensive line because we have Thomas, Powell, Moss, Crowder, Fields, and Dumervil...Orton broke Brees records at Purdue, Im willing to give him a shot.


Seahawks are looking at Sanchez as their first pick... do they need a quarterback as of right now?

and quick duckin the question.... you said the teams I named that drafted 1st round QB's had dominant defenses... aside from Pittsburgh... what teams?

Denver certainly didnt when they drafted elway.... Indy didnt when they drafted Peyton....Giants didnt when they drafted Eli.

Explain.
Seahawks need allot of things. O line etc........ If I was them I would go Tackle. But..... I hope they go QB.

[Benetto]

In the only successful season Hasselbeck played in, his RB broke the TD record and almost hit 2000 yards...

IMO and the seahawks FO, they do NEED a qb. especially when seneca wallace is their only other option than a aging, Matt hasselbeck.

[underrated29]

A little off topic but if we dont walk away with either moreno or rey i will be disappointed. Not because we didnt draft them. As they know more than i do and our team needs. But i think either or both will drastically turn our team around.

[EMB6903]

Eli is not GREAT either. Was Phil Simms?

Now the list of SB losing QBs includes:
Rex Grossman
Matt Hasselbeck
Jake Delhomme
Rich Gannon
Kerry Collins
Chris Chandler
Neil O'Donnell
Stan Humphries
Tony Eason...and so on...

Point is, your team can get to the SB, and even win it, w/o a HOF QB.

Phil Simms and Eli Manning are both very solid QUarterbacks.

and show me the list of teams that won the superbowl with "game managers"

[Benetto]

Matt Hasselbeck played hurt the entire time he played last year... hes still a very sharpe QB and 33 isnt that old for a QB...

question

do you actually watch football or just talk out of your ass 24-7?


I don't watch football, and I talk out of my ass...

That makes you someone who got called out by a non-football watching person who can kiss two girls at the same time with two ends of his body.

[claymore]

A little off topic but if we dont walk away with either moreno or rey i will be disappointed. Not because we didnt draft them. As they know more than i do and our team needs. But i think either or both will drastically turn our team around.

If Moreno is there at 18 it will be the same year we drafted DJ williams when S Jackson was on the board all over again. Im still pissed about that.

[EMB6903]

In the only successful season Hasselbeck played in, his RB broke the TD record and almost hit 2000 yards...

IMO and the seahawks FO, they do NEED a qb. especially when seneca wallace is their only other option than a aging, Matt hasselbeck.

Matt Hasselbeck has been to 3 pro bowls, and 4 seasons with 20+ touchdowns.... along with having topped 90+ QB rating twice in his career..

great point on hes only had 1 successful NFL season though.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Phil Simms and Eli Manning are both very solid QUarterbacks.

and show me the list of teams that won the superbowl with "game managers"

But you said GREAT. Don't go changin the rules in the middle of the game.

[EMB6903]

I don't watch football, and I talk out of my ass...

That makes you someone who got called out by a non-football watching person who can kiss two girls at the same time with two ends of his body.

you called me out? where??

I can keep talking football all night if you want... big snow storm in Colorado so Im here all night.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

If Moreno is there at 18 it will be the same year we drafted DJ williams when S Jackson was on the board all over again. Im still pissed about that.

As am I. When Philly traded up for Andrews I thought for sure they were takin Jackson. When they didn't I was like hellz yeah, he's gonna be a Bronco..what???

[claymore]

Matt Hasselbeck played hurt the entire time he played last year... hes still a very sharpe QB and 33 isnt that old for a QB...

question

do you actually watch football or just talk out of your ass 24-7?

Seattle hasnt been the same since Huttchinson went to minnesota. I knew at the time they would fail and they did.

[frauschieze]

Watch the personal comments, guys.

Thanks.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I also still really like LeSean McCoy, but am sure we likely won't go there. As much as I like he and Moreno, it'd seem like a wasted pick given the way the offense will be tossing the rock all over the yard.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Watch the personal comments, guys.

Thanks.

you suck.

[claymore]

As am I. When Philly traded up for Andrews I thought for sure they were takin Jackson. When they didn't I was like hellz yeah, he's gonna be a Bronco..what???

When we took DJ.... I felt the same way Miami did when they took Ginn and Quinn was on the board. Im surprised I didnt commit suicide!

[EMB6903]

But you said GREAT. Don't go changin the rules in the middle of the game.

what was simms QB line in the superbowl game?

didnt he go for 22-25 or some crazy shit like that?

Wasnt he the superbowl MVP?

and Eli Manning is a franchise Quarterback right now... wouldnt you agree?

[claymore]

you called me out? where??

I can keep talking football all night if you want... big snow storm in Colorado so Im here all night.

Why do you want Sanchez so bad? Look at the success rat of QB's that havent graduated college. Not saying the degree means anything, just saying it avoids one hit wonders.

[TXBRONC]

But you said GREAT. Don't go changin the rules in the middle of the game.

Is that called an audible? :D

[EMB6903]

Seattle hasnt been the same since Huttchinson went to minnesota. I knew at the time they would fail and they did.

I guess..Hutchinson/Walter Jones duo was as nasty as they get...

they did still get to the playoffs in 2006 and 2007 while winning 2 playoff games in that span.

[claymore]

what was simms QB line in the superbowl game?

didnt he go for 22-25 or some crazy shit like that?

Wasnt he the superbowl MVP?

and Eli Manning is a franchise Quarterback right now... wouldnt you agree?

Only cause of the money, name and the SB victory. Allot of folks owe allot of things to David Tyree in NY.

[claymore]

I guess..Hutchinson/Walter Jones duo was as nasty as they get...

they did still get to the playoffs in 2006 and 2007 while winning 2 playoff games in that span.

They also stopped breaking records. They went from Dominent, to The best team in the NFC west....... LOL. Hahahahaha! Wow that is really funny Hahahahahaha!

[EMB6903]

Why do you want Sanchez so bad? Look at the success rat of QB's that havent graduated college. Not saying the degree means anything, just saying it avoids one hit wonders.


Who said I wanted Sanchez that bad? I just laugh when people hate on the guy because hes a junior coming out and only started 16 games and not over reasons on the field.. its a joke if you ask me..... Hes a great QB Prospect

I do not want to trade up for the guy but if hes at 12 and Raji and Brown are gone why not take him?

why do you dislike Sanchez so much....please be the first one to give me reasons by the way he has played on the field... because out of all the arguments ive been in about sanchez NOT ONE person could do so.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

what was simms QB line in the superbowl game?

didnt he go for 22-25 or some crazy shit like that?

Wasnt he the superbowl MVP?

and Eli Manning is a franchise Quarterback right now... wouldnt you agree?

It doesn't matter what Simms did in the game. He wasn't a GREAT QB. Doug Williams torched us too. Was he great?

I dunno about Eli...how'd he look w/o his huge WR to cover up his mistakes?

[Benetto]

Matt Hasselbeck has been to 3 pro bowls, and 4 seasons with 20+ touchdowns.... along with having topped 90+ QB rating twice in his career..

great point on hes only had 1 successful NFL season though.


Oh and that's why the Seahawks need a QB...You're a joke dude. You keep contradicting yourself...LOL, this is kinda funny though.

Lets see if you contradict urself again...

Who would you rather have at this point...Cutler or Hasselbeck?

[EMB6903]

Only cause of the money, name and the SB victory. Allot of folks owe allot of things to David Tyree in NY.

I dislike Eli as much as anybody... I think hes over-rated when people say hes a top 3 talent...

but he has thrown more touchdowns than anybody in the NFC the last 4 years... I'd say thats pretty sharpe.

[claymore]

I dislike Eli as much as anybody... I think hes over-rated when people say hes a top 3 talent...

but he has thrown more touchdowns than anybody in the NFC the last 4 years... I'd say thats pretty sharpe.

I would have to look that up, but......... OK.

[EMB6903]

Oh and that's why the Seahawks need a QB...You're a joke dude. You keep contradicting yourself...LOL, this is kinda funny though.

Lets see if you contradict urself again...

Who would you rather have at this point...Cutler or Hasselbeck?

you think the Seahawks are thinking about drafting Sanchez because they need a QB this year?

Sanchez wouldnt start 1 game this year if he was drafted by the Seahawks unless an injury occured..

thats like saying Denver needed a Quarterback right away when they drafted Maddox in the first round in 1st round in 1992... when they had a guy by the name of John Elway.... whose the joke though?

[claymore]

Who said I wanted Sanchez that bad? I just laugh when people hate on the guy because hes a junior coming out and only started 16 games and not over reasons on the field.. its a joke if you ask me..... Hes a great QB Prospect

I do not want to trade up for the guy but if hes at 12 and Raji and Brown are gone why not take him?

why do you dislike Sanchez so much....please be the first one to give me reasons by the way he has played on the field... because out of all the arguments ive been in about sanchez NOT ONE person could do so.

Seriously the failure rate of QB's from big schools that dont graduate are huge. If he was to stay another year..... Hell yeah evaluate him and trade up if needed.........

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I dislike Eli as much as anybody... I think hes over-rated when people say hes a top 3 talent...

but he has thrown more touchdowns than anybody in the NFC the last 4 years... I'd say thats pretty sharpe.

Who else is on the list?

Favre, who left for the AFC?

Brees, who hasn't been in the conference for 4 years?

Hasslebeck ,who was hurt?

Warner, who they didn't really let start when they should have?

McNabb, who was hurt and had no WRs?

Del*vomit*homme?

Tony "Don't ask me to win after October" Romo?


It's not an impressive stat, given the manipulation of the argument.

[claymore]

you think the Seahawks are thinking about drafting Sanchez because they need a QB this year?

Sanchez wouldnt start 1 game this year if he was drafted by the Seahawks unless an injury occured..

thats like saying Denver needed a Quarterback right away when they drafted Maddox in the first round in 1st round in 1992... when they had a guy by the name of John Elway.... whose the joke though?

Mora needs to keep his Job more than McD does. Its a plummer situation up there if they draft him.

[Benetto]

you think the Seahawks need a Quarterback for this year?

Sanchez wouldnt start 1 game this year if he was drafted by the Seahawks unless an injury occured..

thats like saying Denver needed a Quarterback right away when they drafted Maddox in the first round in 1st round in 1992... when they had a guy by the name of John Elway.... whose the joke though?


Lets go back again...this time maybe you will realize how ignorant your posts sound.


You were the one telling us the seahawks are looking QB at #4...

You are the joke.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Lets go back again...this time maybe you will realize how ignorant your posts sound.


You were the one telling us the seahawks are looking QB at #4...

You are the joke.

I actually agree with his post. It's similar to us taking Cutler when we had Plummer. We all knew Cutler the rook wasn't getting the ball from day 1. But the writing was also on the wall.

[EMB6903]

Who else is on the list?

Favre, who left for the AFC?

Brees, who hasn't been in the conference for 4 years?

Hasslebeck ,who was hurt?

Warner, who they didn't really let start when they should have?

McNabb, who was hurt and had no WRs?

Del*vomit*homme?

Tony "Don't ask me to win after October" Romo?


It's not an impressive stat, given the manipulation of the argument.


its not an impressive stat?

I would have to disagree... he led the conference in TD's in a 4 year... thats pretty impressive... but lets go back to 2005-2007 so we can count favre in there...

Eli Manning= 71 touchdowns in that 3 year span

Brett Favre= 66 touchdowns in that 3 year span

[Benetto]

Difference is Plummer got us to the AFC championship game the year before...How many games did Hasselbeck play?

[EMB6903]

Lets go back again...this time maybe you will realize how ignorant your posts sound.


You were the one telling us the seahawks are looking QB at #4...

You are the joke.

Hes mad... LMAO!

why am I a joke for saying Seahawks are looking at QB at 4?

explain


and also... since you have avoided this question for the last hour let me try again....

you told me that Denver, Indy, and New York had "DOMINANT" defenses when they drafted Quarterbacks... none of them were ranked higher than 20 in points allowed

EXPLAIN.....

[TXBRONC]

It doesn't matter what Simms did in the game. He wasn't a GREAT QB. Doug Williams torched us too. Was he great?

I dunno about Eli...how'd he look w/o his huge WR to cover up his mistakes?

Here's what Simms did in 1986 the year they beat Denver in the Super Bowl.

He completed 259 passes out of 468 attempts which means his completion percentage for the year was 55.3%. He threw for 3487 yards 21 touchdowns and 22 interceptions. That's not a great year. His career numbers are nothing to write home about.

[claymore]

its not an impressive stat?

I would have to disagree... he led the conference in TD's in a 4 year... thats pretty impressive... but lets go back to 2005-2007 so we can count favre in there...

Eli Manning= 71 touchdowns in that 3 year span

Brett Favre= 66 touchdowns in that 3 year span

You are comparing a QB to Brett Favre just so you know!

Probably the worst QB ever to probably go into the HOF.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

its not an impressive stat?

I would have to disagree... he led the conference in TD's in a 4 year... thats pretty impressive... but lets go back to 2005-2007 so we can count favre in there...

Eli Manning= 71 touchdowns in that 3 year span

Brett Favre= 66 touchdowns in that 3 year span

What did Brees have in 06-08? Anyone can manipulate an argument to their liking. Eli was healthy for 4 straight years...YAY. I never said he was terrible. I said he's not great...cuz he's not. Not 1 legit QB in that conference was healthy or playing all 4 of those seasons. He's no Warner. He's no Brees. He's no Hasselbeck. He's no Favre (who I really don't like BTW). Hell...I'll even say he's no Ryan.

[EMB6903]

Difference is Plummer got us to the AFC championship game the year before...How many games did Hasselbeck play?


Hasselbeck has won 4 playoff games and played in a superbowl in the last 4 years.... He had one season where he battled injuries and hes done?

you are entertainment

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Hasselbeck has won 4 playoff games and played in a superbowl in the last 4 years.... He had one season where he battled injuries and hes done?

you are entertainment

You do know you basically ask for people to treat you like an ass, right?

We can all be friends here dude. Just sayin.

[TXBRONC]

What did Brees have in 06-08? Anyone can manipulate an argument to their liking. Eli was healthy for 4 straight years...YAY. I never said he was terrible. I said he's not great...cuz he's not. Not 1 legit QB in that conference was healthy or playing all 4 of those seasons. He's no Warner. He's no Brees. He's no Favre (who I really don't like BTW). Hell...I'll even say he's no Ryan.

From '06 to '08 Brees has throw 88 touchdowns.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

From '06 to '08 Brees has throw 88 touchdowns.

Is that more than 71?

[Benetto]

Hasselbeck has won 4 playoff games and played in a superbowl in the last 4 years.... He had one season where he battled injuries and hes done?

you are entertainment


Its Friday night, and you're getting your entertainment on the Internet...Must be a slow time for you. I'm sorry to hear.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

:smack:
Its Friday night, and you're getting your entertainment on the Internet...Must be a slow time for you. I'm sorry to hear.
:smack:

[TXBRONC]

Is that more than 71?

Last time I checked it was. :salute:

[claymore]

Its Friday night, and you're getting your entertainment on the Internet...Must be a slow time for you. I'm sorry to hear.

Thanks for making me feel like a loser Ben!

[LRtagger]

sweeeeeeeeeet

8=============D~~~~

[Benetto]

Thanks for making me feel like a loser Ben!


Sorry dude...You gotta break some eggs to make a idiot omlette.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Last time I checked it was. :salute:

Actually I was wrong. Eli only had 68 those 3 years.

[claymore]

Sorry dude...You gotta break some eggs to make a idiot omlette.
LMAO......... I used to be cool. Before the internet was. :sad:

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Romo had 81...wow that was such a bullshit stat. Romo didn't throw a pass in 05.

[Benetto]

LMAO......... I used to be cool. Before the internet was. :sad:


Now you're cool ON the Internet...

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Warner had 63 in the past 3 years...and only played in 6 games in 2006.

[Benetto]

its not an impressive stat?

I would have to disagree... he led the conference in TD's in a 4 year... thats pretty impressive... but lets go back to 2005-2007 so we can count favre in there...

Eli Manning= 71 touchdowns in that 3 year span

Brett Favre= 66 touchdowns in that 3 year span


Now if that's not a perfect way of contradicting urself, and sounding like ur talking out of ur ass...I don't know what is.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Now if that's not a perfect way of contradicting urself, and sounding like ur talking out of ur ass...I don't know what is.

Eli may have the 4 year mark, but that's only cuz dudes were only on current rosters or healthy for 3 of the 4. It's CLEAR that over the past 3 seasons, when those same QBs were actually on the field or in the NFC, Eli doesn't measure up. Eli is NOT a great QB.

[claymore]

EMB is a good poster we just hate the idea of Sanchez so bad we will be up all night protesting.

[Benetto]

I can't wait til he replies again...

Reminds me of a Boxer who is taking a POUNDING but still doesn't go down for the count...LMAO..

[SmilinAssasSin27]

EMB is a good poster we just hate the idea of Sanchez so bad we will be up all night protesting.
I disagree

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I'm actually not anti-Sanchez at #12. I don't love the idea. I also think that a merely solid QB win win a SB w/ the right team around him.

[claymore]

I disagree

Hahahahaha! We all have different views dude. You guys raised me.... You have to have a heart?

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Hahahahaha! We all have different views dude. You guys raised me.... You have to have a heart?

how the F do you have 17,000 posts? You need to get some sun. Go to the park tomorrow, m'kay?

[EMB6903]

Here's what Simms did in 1986 the year they beat Denver in the Super Bowl.

He completed 259 passes out of 468 attempts which means his completion percentage for the year was 55.3%. He threw for 3487 yards 21 touchdowns and 22 interceptions. That's not a great year. His career numbers are nothing to write home about.

1966- Green Bay Packers= Bart Starr= HOF
1967- Green Bay Packers = Bart Starr
1968- New York Jets= Joe Namath= HOF
1969- Kansas City Chiefs= Len Dawson= HOF
1970- Baltimore Colts= Johny Unitas= HOF
1971- Dallas Cowboys= Roger Staubach= HOF
1972- Miami Dolphins= Bob Griese= HOF
1973- Miami Dolphins= Bob Griese
1974- Pittsburgh Steelers= Terry Bradshaw= HOF
1975- Pittsburgh Steelers= Terry Bradshaw
1976- Oakland Raiders= Kenny Stabler
1977- Dallas Cowboys= Roger Staubach
1978- Pittsburgh Steelers= Terry Bradshaw
1979- Pittsburgh Steelers= Terry Bradshaw
1980- Oakland Raiders= Jim Plunkett
1981- San Fransisco 49ers= Joe Montana= HOF
1982- Washington Redskins= Joe Thiesmann
1983- Oakland Raiders= Jim Plunkett
1984- San Fransisco 49ers= Joe Montana
1985- Chicago Bears= Jim Mcmahan
1986- New York Giants= Phil Simms
1987- Washington Redskins= Doug Williams
1988- San Fransisco 49ers= Joe Montana
1989- San Fransisco 49ers= Joe Montana
1990- New York Giants= Jeff Hostetler
1991- Washington redskins= Mark Rypein
1992- Dallas Cowboys= Troy Aikman= HOF
1993- Dallas Cowboys= Troy Aikman
1994- San Fransisco 49ers= Steve Young= HOF
1995- Dallas Cowboys= Troy Aikman
1996- Green Bay Packers= Brett Favre= Future HOF
1997- Denver Broncos= John Elway= HOF
1998- Denver Broncos= John Elway
1999- St Louis Rams= Kurt Warner= Future HOF
2000- Baltimore Ravens= Trent Dilfer
2001- New England Patriots= Tom Brady= Future HOF
2002- Tampa Bay Bucs= Brad Johnson
2003- New England Patriots= Tom Brady
2004- New England Patriots= Tom Brady
2005- Pittsburgh Steelers= Ben Roethlisberger
2006- Indiapolis Colts= Peyton Manning= Future HOF
2007- New York Giants= Eli Manning
2008- Pittsburgh Steelers= Ben Roethlisberger


the ones I bolded were who I thought most would describe as nothing more then Game managers.

so out of the 43 superbowls played 27 years has a team with a Hall of fame quarterback or future HOFer has won the superbowl and only and 35 times has a team with a franchise Quarterback has won a superbowl

Notice no teams with average quarterbacks ever repeated.

Have I made my point that you need a great Quarterback to succeed in this league?

[Benetto]

In florida, even when you're inside you're gettin Sun.


I'm gonna go have a Cadbury Creme egg that's calling my name.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Peyton had 89 to Eli's 68 in 06-08.
Rivers had 77
Brady had 75 and missed an entire season.

[claymore]

how the F do you have 17,000 posts? You need to get some sun. Go to the park tomorrow, m'kay?
I get paid to surf the internet. :(

[SmilinAssasSin27]

1966- Green Bay Packers= Bart Starr= HOF
1967- Green Bay Packers = Bart Starr
1968- New York Jets= Joe Namath= HOF
1969- Kansas City Chiefs= Len Dawson= HOF
1970- Baltimore Colts= Johny Unitas= HOF
1971- Dallas Cowboys= Roger Staubach= HOF
1972- Miami Dolphins= Bob Griese= HOF
1973- Miami Dolphins= Bob Griese
1974- Pittsburgh Steelers= Terry Bradshaw= HOF
1975- Pittsburgh Steelers= Terry Bradshaw
1976- Oakland Raiders= Kenny Stabler
1977- Dallas Cowboys= Roger Staubach
1978- Pittsburgh Steelers= Terry Bradshaw
1979- Pittsburgh Steelers= Terry Bradshaw
1980- Oakland Raiders= Jim Plunkett
1981- San Fransisco 49ers= Joe Montana= HOF
1982- Washington Redskins= Joe Thiesmann
1983- Oakland Raiders= Jim Plunkett
1984- San Fransisco 49ers= Joe Montana
1985- Chicago Bears= Jim Mcmahan
1986- New York Giants= Phil Simms
1987- Washington Redskins= Doug Williams
1988- San Fransisco 49ers= Joe Montana
1989- San Fransisco 49ers= Joe Montana
1990- New York Giants= Jeff Hostetler
1991- Washington redskins= Mark Rypein
1992- Dallas Cowboys= Troy Aikman= HOF
1993- Dallas Cowboys= Troy Aikman
1994- San Fransisco 49ers= Steve Young= HOF
1995- Dallas Cowboys= Troy Aikman
1996- Green Bay Packers= Brett Favre= Future HOF
1997- Denver Broncos= John Elway= HOF
1998- Denver Broncos= John Elway
1999- St Louis Rams= Kurt Warner= Future HOF
2000- Baltimore Ravens= Trent Dilfer
2001- New England Patriots= Tom Brady= Future HOF
2002- Tampa Bay Bucs= Brad Johnson
2003- New England Patriots= Tom Brady
2004- New England Patriots= Tom Brady
2005- Pittsburgh Steelers= Ben Roethlisberger
2006- Indiapolis Colts= Peyton Manning= Future HOF
2007- New York Giants= Eli Manning
2008- Pittsburgh Steelers= Ben Roethlisberger


the ones I bolded were who I thought most would describe as nothing more then Game managers.

so out of the 43 superbowls played 27 years has a team with a Hall of fame quarterback or future HOFer has won the superbowl and only and 35 times has a team with a franchise Quarterback has won a superbowl

Notice no teams with average quarterbacks ever repeated.

Have I made my point that you need a great Quarterback to succeed in this league?


Well...Plunkett has 2 rings and he was barely above average.

Secondly, I'll concede that from 1966 to 1982 you really needed a HOF, badass QB (14 of 17). BUT since 1983..you know, the modern age, the ratio of stud SB winning QBs to average superbowl winning QBs has changed dramatically (17 of 26). And Montana, Brady and Aikman account for 9 of those SBs in that era.

Since 1983, more than 1/3 of the SBs have been won by non-superstar QBs.
And another 1/3 have been won by Aikman, Montana and Brady.

[EMB6903]

I can't wait til he replies again...

Reminds me of a Boxer who is taking a POUNDING but still doesn't go down for the count...LMAO..

lets be real my man... Ive been schooling you up this entire time, and also have forgotten more football than you know... which is little...

first you said that all the teams I listed that drafted high profiled Quarterbacks had dominant defenses.....

and in 1982 (the year before Denver traded the rights to Elway) the defense was horrible

in 2003 (the year before Giants drafted Eli Manning) they were the 29th ranked defense in points allowed

in 1997 (year before Peyton manning was drafted) the Colts were 26th in points allowed

than you basically said that since the Seatle Seahawks are looking to draft Matt Sanchez than that means they have given up on Matt Hasselbeck which isnt the case at all... like I said... Denver drafted Tommy Maddox in 1992 when Elway was still a dominant QB... what does that tell you?

the funniest one in my opinion is you are hating on Sanchez over the fact that he is loaded with talent around him... when your favorite prospect in this draft? is on the same team and played with 1st round prospects like Rivers, Ellis, Matthews, Everson Griffin, Lawrence Jackson and Cushing...

you are entertainment at its finest.

[EMB6903]

Well...Plunkett has 2 rings and he was barely above average.

Secondly, I'll concede that from 1966 to 1982 you really needed a HOF, badass QB (14 of 17). BUT since 1983..you know, the modern age, the ratio of stud SB winning QBs to average superbowl winning QBs has changed dramatically (17 of 26). And Montana, Brady and Aikman account for 9 of those SBs in that era.

Since 1983, more than 1/3 of the SBs have been won by non-superstar QBs.
And another 1/3 have been won by Aikman, Montana and Brady.

since 1992 only Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, and Eli Manning are the only "game managers" that have won a ring... what does that tell you?

and people could definately argue that Eli is a great quarterback.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

since 1992 only Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, and Eli Manning are the only "game managers" have won a ring... what does that tell you?

and people could definately argue that Eli is a great quarterback.

First off, those people would be wrong.

Next on the list...Are you seriously trying to tell me that Ben Roethlisberger is more than a game manager?

[claymore]

Well...Plunkett has 2 rings and he was barely above average.

Secondly, I'll concede that from 1966 to 1982 you really needed a HOF, badass QB (14 of 17). BUT since 1983..you know, the modern age, the ratio of stud SB winning QBs to average superbowl winning QBs has changed dramatically (17 of 26). And Montana, Brady and Aikman account for 9 of those SBs in that era.

Since 1983, more than 1/3 of the SBs have been won by non-superstar QBs.
And another 1/3 have been won by Aikman, Montana and Brady.

This whole argument hinges on Sanchez being better than Orton. I beg all Sanchez lovers to look at the numbers etc.... and also this.......


In April 2006, Sanchez was arrested after a female USC student accused him of sexual assault.[12][13] He was released from jail the following day, after posting $200,000 bail, but USC placed him on interim suspension that suspended him from the football team yet permitted him to take his semester finals, albeit separate from the general student body and under the supervision of campus security.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Big Ben

GREAT year in 2007...no question. Otherwise:

2008 17 TD and 15 INT
2006 18 TD and 23 INT
2005 17 TD and 9 INT
2004 17 TD and 11 INT

GAME MANAGER

[claymore]

Big Ben

GREAT year in 2007...no question. Otherwise:

2008 17 TD and 15 INT
2006 18 TD and 23 INT
2005 17 TD and 9 INT
2004 17 TD and 11 INT

GAME MANAGER

Hell yeah.

[EMB6903]

Its Friday night, and you're getting your entertainment on the Internet...Must be a slow time for you. I'm sorry to hear.

well seeing that theres about 2 1/2 ft of snow on the ground and still snowing.. Im definately posted for the rest of the friday night..

but I love how you are getting personal that means Ive touched a nerve.


the funniest thing about this post is you are here posting on a friday night as well.... Like I said earlier ENTERTAINMENT AT ITS FINEST

[EMB6903]

Big Ben

GREAT year in 2007...no question. Otherwise:

2008 17 TD and 15 INT
2006 18 TD and 23 INT
2005 17 TD and 9 INT
2004 17 TD and 11 INT

GAME MANAGER

just because he wasnt wasnt asked to throw 30 Touchdowns a game doesnt mean he was just a game manager

did you watch the Cinci, Indy, and Denver game during that playoff run? when he was asked to step up and play big he did.

Roethlisberger was very impressive during the playoffs in 2005 aside the Superbowl game. 7 touchdowns to 3 interceptions during the 2005 playoffs

[underrated29]

well seeing that theres about 2 1/2 ft of snow on the ground and still snowing.. Im definately posted for the rest of the friday night..




Yep i am with ya emb. I went to the store got some drink and steaks. Little man is at grandmas as there is too much snow for me to get him. (not really but why take the chance driving in this)

So i got the night of chillin alone a la casa.

[EMB6903]

First off, those people would be wrong.

Next on the list...Are you seriously trying to tell me that Ben Roethlisberger is more than a game manager?

why would they be wrong? its an opinion.... and Eli Manning has had a very impressive career so far...Hes more then just a game manager, thats for sure..

and Ben Roethlisberger is definately more then a game manager.... theres no doubt about that

Steelers played the NFC East, and AFC South last year.... look at the defenses in those divisons? not to mention playing in the afc north where you have to play Baltimore twice a year...

also can I ask you a question?

John Elway
1986= 19 tds to 13 ints
1987= 19 tds to 12 ints
1988= 18 tds to 18 ints
1989= 15 tds to 14 ints

was Elway just a game manager because his stats would say so?

I say no... hes still the greatest of alltime.

Stats are great to judge a player but some times they are very misleading

[Benetto]

well seeing that theres about 2 1/2 ft of snow on the ground and still snowing.. Im definately posted for the rest of the friday night..

but I love how you are getting personal that means Ive touched a nerve.


the funniest thing about this post is you are here posting on a friday night as well.... Like I said earlier ENTERTAINMENT AT ITS FINEST


If the concept of Time zones doesn't mean anything to you...then you must be laughing your ass off....Cause its only 7 PM out here..
BTW, 2 feet of snow is nothing...get to 4feet and you have credibility.
Like I said, Entertainment on the Internet on a Friday night.

[EMB6903]

If the concept of Time zones doesn't mean anything to you...then you must be laughing your ass off....Cause its only 7 PM out here..
BTW, 2 feet of snow is nothing...get to 4feet and you have credibility.
Like I said, Entertainment on the Internet on a Friday night.


Its Friday night, and you're getting your entertainment on the Internet...Must be a slow time for you. I'm sorry to hear.

^^^^ you posted that message (#95) at 7 11PM mountain time about hating on me for not going out... but its 7 oclock there and you are using it as an excuse as it being too early?

LMAO... you are hilarious dude.... you need to post more often, youre fun to toy with

[BroncoNut]

I think none of us know what Mcdaniels is gonna do at this point... and most are over looking the need at Quarterback.... which as Ive said before is hilarious

were fine with Orton and Simms?

just because we have 2 QB's on the roster means we are cool for another year?

thats like saying we are fine on the defensive line because we have Thomas, Powell, Moss, Crowder, Fields, and Dumervil...

I think many, like myself, feel the need to give Orton a chance in our system before overreacting to the jay culter debacle. We are definitely rebuiliding and no matter whose under center, our defense has sucked very bad.

[Benetto]

^^^^ you posted that message (#95) at 7 11PM mountain time about hating on me for not going out... but its 7 oclock there and you are using it as an excuse as it being too early?

LMAO... you are hilarious dude.... you need to post more often, youre fun to toy with


You need to post more often, No one really puts up BS stats and spends hours trying to justify them...Its good we have one clown making us all laugh...

[omac]

jmo ...

I think McDaniels must draft a QB this year, probably around the mid area of the draft, if he has any choice. Taking one high would bring down the value of the Cutler trade, as it would look like he traded Cutler for Mark Sanchez and next year's 1st rounder. That will make him look bad.

Though the draft class next year is supposed to be better for QBs, he can't wait until next draft to get one, because he needs to train someone now, just in case Orton or Simms flop. He needs insurance. If either of them flop this season, there is a chance a rookie QB drafted this year will be able to perform well next year. He can't waste a season not training Orton or Simms' possible replacement.

On rebuilding, he won't be given as much patience on offense than he will be on defense, as the offense was seen as a strength. He's expected to tweak it to get better, not rebuild it.

For insurance, he needs to draft a QB this season.

[EMB6903]

I think many, like myself, feel the need to give Orton a chance in our system before overreacting to the jay culter debacle. We are definitely rebuiliding and no matter whose under center, our defense has sucked very bad.

Orton will have a chance... but I dont think that should stop us from taking the best player avalable at #12... and if Brown and Raji are gone and Sanchez are there then I would expect he would be the best pick available....

[tubby]

I think many, like myself, feel the need to give Orton a chance in our system before overreacting to the jay culter debacle. We are definitely rebuiliding and no matter whose under center, our defense has sucked very bad.

Word up Nut. Word up.

[claymore]

Orton will have a chance... but I dont think that should stop us from taking the best player avalable at #12... and if Brown and Raji are gone and Sanchez are there then I would expect he would be the best pick available....

If we are doing the best player available thing we could pick up sanchez in the 5th round.

[EMB6903]

jmo ...

I think McDaniels must draft a QB this year, probably around the mid area of the draft, if he has any choice. Taking one high would bring down the value of the Cutler trade, as it would look like he traded Cutler for Mark Sanchez and next year's 1st rounder. That will make him look bad.

Though the draft class next year is supposed to be better for QBs, he can't wait until next draft to get one, because he needs to train someone now, just in case Orton or Simms flop. He needs insurance. If either of them flop this season, there is a chance a rookie QB drafted this year will be able to perform well next year. He can't waste a season not training Orton or Simms' possible replacement.

On rebuilding, he won't be given as much patience on offense than he will be on defense, as the offense was seen as a strength. He's expected to tweak it to get better, not rebuild it.

For insurance, he needs to draft a QB this season.



I dont think Mcdaniels is worried about whether it makes him look bad but to make the team better.... he messed up with the Cutler situation and has moved on....

Also why do you think it would look like Denver traded Sanchez for Cutler if we drafted Sanchez with our number 12th pick? we still got Orton, a 3rd and a 1st next year from the Bears... I'd say thats more then Just Sanchez for Cutler straight up.

[EMB6903]

If we are doing the best player available thing we could pick up sanchez in the 5th round.

I dont understand why you think this.... a 5th round talent?

its just because the history of other QB's who have flopped coming out as juniors? that is the ONLY reason you hate the guy?

can you tell me what he does on the field that you dislike?

[Scarface]

While I don't think either Orton or Simms are the long term answer at QB, I think that if the Broncos draft a QB in the first round then we have to admit that the trade was a mistake.

Let's just admit it now. The trade was a mistake. Why wait?

[Benetto]

Let's just admit it now. The trade was a mistake. Why wait?


Dude, Scarman....I was worried I'd never see you on here again bro...I bet you are the Bronco fan to take it the hardest. You were preaching Cutler even before Scouts knew who he was.

[BroncoNut]

Let's just admit it now. The trade was a mistake. Why wait?

i still think he needed to go. I think McDaniel's made a huge mistake and I was disappointed that Cutler couldn't let it go.

[BeefStew25]

i still think he needed to go. I think McDaniel's made a huge mistake and I was disappointed that Cutler couldn't let it go.

That is where I am at. But McDaniels better freaking bring the pain.

[Magnificent Seven]

Mark Rypien
Doug Williams
Jeff Hostetler
anyone got 2 more?

Oh yeah! Ryan Leaf from Washington State!!!! Horrible QB ever!

[Shazam!]

If Denver gets Sanchez I will blow a gasket. Seriously. Then I will just be in the 'I hate McDaniels' crowd because this would be a disaster. This guy IMO has bust written all over him.

ANY other QB in the Draft other than this guy, or trading a pick to Cleveland for Quinn or Washington for Brennan would be better.

I would be more pissed at the Broncos than I have have ever been in my near 25 years of following this team.

[omac]

I dont think Mcdaniels is worried about whether it makes him look bad but to make the team better.... he messed up with the Cutler situation and has moved on....

I think the way he handled the Cutler situation in front of his boss, Bowlen, will put pressure on him to be more aware of how his next actions will be perceived. I think he's been much less aggressive with his acquisition and release of players after that situation. Where as before, we were hearing that he was open to moving Hillis, now he has glowing reports on him. Though just a long snapper, do you really think he'd still acquire Paxton with 2nd in the league salary, when we already had a very solid Bronco in Leach? McDaniels has to show moves that seem more prudent than luxurious. He also has to give the perception now that he's more a Bronco than a Patriot.


Also why do you think it would look like Denver traded Sanchez for Cutler if we drafted Sanchez with our number 12th pick? we still got Orton, a 3rd and a 1st next year from the Bears... I'd say thats more then Just Sanchez for Cutler straight up.

We also gave up a 5th, so we gave up Cutler and a 5th, for 2 1sts, a 3rd, and Orton, supposedly because Orton is the type of QB he likes. The assumption is that this is Orton's team.

By drafting Sanchez in the 1st round, Orton moves from the leader of the offense to a stop-gap player until Sanchez learns the offense. That greatly devalues Orton, making him seem like a Griese or a McCown. That type of player, stop-gaps, you can pick up relatively easy, so they don't really add much value in trade. It's like spicing up a deal with Josh McCown.

Also, since Orton would move from leader of the offense to stop-gap, then you look at the roster of the Broncos, and you see McDaniels is paying Chris Simms very good money. Chris Simms can definitely be a stop-gap, based on the money they're paying him. That means, taking Orton as a stop-gap player is redundant, if you believe in Simms enough to give him that kind of money.

Drafting Sanchez lowers the value of Orton into a stop-gap level.

Put it to you this way .... let's say we've never seen Leinart in the NFL, and he was one of the top rated QBs coming out of USC in the draft, just like Sanchez .....

Would you trade Cutler and 5th rounder for Matt Leinart, Josh McCown (a stop-gap level QB), a 3rd rounder, and next year's 1st rounder?

I wouldn't, even without knowing that Leinart would, so far, bust.

For a QB, I'd replace the 1st round unknowns with a top level proven QB like Schaub or maybe even a high-potential QB who we've already seen play, like Quinn.

Now if you use the top draft picks on defense instead, what you're saying is that you might've took a step back in offense, but you're committed to building a very solid defense that Denver's lacked the past 2 seasons. That's a much better message to send.

[Magnificent Seven]

I would be happy if Stafford has fell to# 12 and Broncos drafted him.

[EMB6903]

I think the way he handled the Cutler situation in front of his boss, Bowlen, will put pressure on him to be more aware of how his next actions will be perceived. I think he's been much less aggressive with his acquisition and release of players after that situation. Where as before, we were hearing that he was open to moving Hillis, now he has glowing reports on him. Though just a long snapper, do you really think he'd still acquire Paxton with 2nd in the league salary, when we already had a very solid Bronco in Leach? McDaniels has to show moves that seem more prudent than luxurious. He also has to give the perception now that he's more a Bronco than a Patriot.



We also gave up a 5th, so we gave up Cutler and a 5th, for 2 1sts, a 3rd, and Orton, supposedly because Orton is the type of QB he likes. The assumption is that this is Orton's team.

By drafting Sanchez in the 1st round, Orton moves from the leader of the offense to a stop-gap player until Sanchez learns the offense. That greatly devalues Orton, making him seem like a Griese or a McCown. That type of player, stop-gaps, you can pick up relatively easy, so they don't really add much value in trade. It's like spicing up a deal with Josh McCown.

Also, since Orton would move from leader of the offense to stop-gap, then you look at the roster of the Broncos, and you see McDaniels is paying Chris Simms very good money. Chris Simms can definitely be a stop-gap, based on the money they're paying him. That means, taking Orton as a stop-gap player is redundant, if you believe in Simms enough to give him that kind of money.

Drafting Sanchez lowers the value of Orton into a stop-gap level.

Put it to you this way .... let's say we've never seen Leinart in the NFL, and he was one of the top rated QBs coming out of USC in the draft, just like Sanchez .....

Would you trade Cutler and 5th rounder for Matt Leinart, Josh McCown (a stop-gap level QB), a 3rd rounder, and next year's 1st rounder?

I wouldn't, even without knowing that Leinart would, so far, bust.

For a QB, I'd replace the 1st round unknowns with a top level proven QB like Schaub or maybe even a high-potential QB who we've already seen play, like Quinn.

Now if you use the top draft picks on defense instead, what you're saying is that you might've took a step back in offense, but you're committed to building a very solid defense that Denver's lacked the past 2 seasons. That's a much better message to send.

Orton was nothing more then a 2 year stop gap in the first place.... you actually think hes going to be a long term answer?

and 1 1st round pick doesnt make or break your rentire defense... we still
have 4 more picks in the first 3 rounds aside from #12

Im tired of arguing about it though esspecially when not one person can give me a reason to hate sanchez aside from "experience" and "hes a junior coming out" I think its an absolute joke and very ignorant that so many people on this board hate on 1 player but cant give me one reason as to why they dislike the WAY HE PLAYS... I guess its a follow the leader type of thing.. but whatever


we will see how Sanchez pans out...But Im pretty confident he will be a very solid Quarterback in this league..

[omac]

Orton was nothing more then a 2 year stop gap in the first place.... you actually think hes going to be a long term answer?

and 1 1st round pick doesnt make or break your rentire defense... we still
have 4 more picks in the first 3 rounds aside from #12

Im tired of arguing about it though esspecially when not one person can give me a reason to hate sanchez aside from "experience" and "hes a junior coming out"

we will see how Sanchez pans out...But Im pretty confident he will be a very solid Quarterback in this league..

If Orton was nothing more than a stop-gap, then he's redundant, as he already has Simms. Stop-gaps aren't that difficult to acquire, either, so they shouldn't factor much in a trade of this magnitude. And like I said, they already have a stop-gap in Simms.

Nowhere in my reasoning did I say I hated Sanchez as a player.

What I'm saying is he has the potential, like any QB drafted high, to bust. When you take that into consideration, franchise QB and a 5th, versus unknown QB plus stop-gap, plus a 1st next year and a 3rd, that doesn't look very good. Furthermore, the value of next season's draft usually drops by a round, probably due to uncertainty, so next year's 1st rounder isn't as valuable as this year's 1st rounder.

Now if you take a QB in the mid or later rounds, you're saying that Orton is your QB, and you're developing a low-investment, great value talent for the future, who you can either start later on, or trade for value, just like Cassel.

[Shazam!]

I am praying he is gone by the time Denver is up and they don't move up to get him. This would be a disaster in my eyes. I would be super dooper pissed. I'd rather they traded 3 1sts for a shot at Stafford or Drafted a QB in the 6th.

[EMB6903]

If Orton was nothing more than a stop-gap, then he's redundant, as he already has Simms. Stop-gaps aren't that difficult to acquire, either, so they shouldn't factor much in a trade of this magnitude. And like I said, they already have a stop-gap in Simms.

Nowhere in my reasoning did I say I hated Sanchez as a player.

What I'm saying is he has the potential, like any QB drafted high, to bust. When you take that into consideration, franchise QB and a 5th, versus unknown QB plus stop-gap, plus a 1st next year and a 3rd, that doesn't look very good. Furthermore, the value of next season's draft usually drops by a round, probably due to uncertainty, so next year's 1st rounder isn't as valuable as this year's 1st rounder.

Now if you take a QB in the mid or later rounds, you're saying that Orton is your QB, and you're developing a low-investment, great value talent for the future, who you can either start later on, or trade for value, just like Cassel.


I dont know about drafting a QB in the later rounds aside from Pat White esspecially in a draft where theres a major drop off in talent after the top 3-4QB's are taken...

and my bad I wasnt talking about you in general... just everybody who says that drafting him would be a huge mistake just over the fact that the history of Junior QB's have failed and not recognizing the most important aspect....the way he plays on the football field.

[omac]

I dont know about drafting a QB in the later rounds aside from Pat White esspecially in a draft where theres a major drop off in talent after the top 3-4QB's are taken...

and my bad I wasnt talking about you in general... just everybody who says that drafting him would be a huge mistake just over the fact that the history of Junior QB's have failed and not recognizing the most important aspect....the way he plays on the football field.

Football Outsiders did some research on QB's, and they've noticed that those who started more games in college had a much better rate of success in the NFL than those who didn't. FO is usually pretty objective, so their studies usually have a lot of weight.

Still, Mayock believes that Sanchez is the best QB in the draft, and he has a lot of credibility in his assessments. I believe he chose Cutler over Leinart and Young, when most people didn't know a thing about Cutler. His opinion should not be discounted, so Sanchez could definitely be a player.

On the flipside, some take Kiper's word as doctrine, but he chose Lienart over Young and Cutler. How's that working out, Mel? :D

[TXBRONC]

i still think he needed to go. I think McDaniel's made a huge mistake and I was disappointed that Cutler couldn't let it go.

After that last meeting that McDaniels and Cutler had it was over then.

[nevcraw]

I would be happy with the pick.. It would mean McD got his man. and Orton was only a place holder incase they couldnt get Sanchez or while he learns the offense..

Not that one shouldn't like Orton or Simms but with our Defense just getting out of the gates again, it would seem like the smart move would to build the offense around the potential franchise / system QB that the coach really wanted instead of a couple of retreads..

[Poet]

I remember when the Ravens had 2 first round picks and were in need of Defense... Cough..Ray lewis, Cough Jon Ogden...

They won a Superbowl with Trent Dilfer and those 2 1st round picks on Defense and O line. we already have a Probowl caliber Olinemen.

This may be one of the best posts I have seen in awhile.

Defense is the most important part of the team.

Peyton Manning only won a SB when his defense played great.

The Cardinals couldn't beat the Steelers (note that it also shows that you do need some sort of capable offense, but then again Big Ben and the Steeler offense wasn't exactly lighting it up all year either)

The Giants' defense, which was very good, but definitely will not be remembered as one of the greatest defenses ever, beat the greatest defense ever

The list goes on and on and on. If you want to be a real playoff team that is constantly in the mix for a championship then you need to have a great defense that has a system. Pittsburgh, Baltimore, New England, and even the Eagles all have a system. You know what they are going to do, you even know how they will do it. And for those who say otherwise, even the Ravens only have so many viable blitz packages, so don't try to debate that.

Offense and QBs are overrated. Offensive teams are fun to watch, hell, they can get to the playoffs a lot. Defensive teams are "boring". They don't score as much, their offenses tend to run off of a run and playaction game. Then again, tell me how much fun the Steelers had this year...

[Shazam!]

Picking a QB high isn't only a risk it's an expensive risk.

Denver can grab a 4th, 5th, or 6th rounder on the cheap and McD can maybe work some magic on him.

The needs are defense and everyone knows it, but QB is a hole that wasn't there in January. The biggest void IMO is on the DLine.

Just please no Sanchez damnit. I'm gonna have a nightmare about this.

[EMB6903]

This may be one of the best posts I have seen in awhile.

Defense is the most important part of the team.

Peyton Manning only won a SB when his defense played great.The Cardinals couldn't beat the Steelers (note that it also shows that you do need some sort of capable offense, but then again Big Ben and the Steeler offense wasn't exactly lighting it up all year either)

The Giants' defense, which was very good, but definitely will not be remembered as one of the greatest defenses ever, beat the greatest defense ever

The list goes on and on and on. If you want to be a real playoff team that is constantly in the mix for a championship then you need to have a great defense that has a system. Pittsburgh, Baltimore, New England, and even the Eagles all have a system. You know what they are going to do, you even know how they will do it. And for those who say otherwise, even the Ravens only have so many viable blitz packages, so don't try to debate that.

Offense and QBs are overrated. Offensive teams are fun to watch, hell, they can get to the playoffs a lot. Defensive teams are "boring". They don't score as much, their offenses tend to run off of a run and playaction game. Then again, tell me how much fun the Steelers had this year...

Colts were far from a great defense when they won the superbowl in 2006...I dont know where you got that...

Defense wins championships= not true

great overall teams win championships... not just defense or offense...

[EMB6903]

Picking a QB high isn't only a risk it's an expensive risk.

Denver can grab a 4th, 5th, or 6th rounder on the cheap and McD can maybe work some magic on him.

The needs are defense and everyone knows it, but QB is a hole that wasn't there in January. The biggest void IMO is on the DLine.

Just please no Sanchez damnit. I'm gonna have a nightmare about this.

you are living in a dream world if you think we can just grab a qb in the late rounds and mcdaniels will work "MAGIC ON HIM"...

but hell the pats did it with Cassel and Brady.... so Mcdaniels is definately going to get it done...

I dont need another year of bad QB play to realize that we need to draft a QB.... Orton and Simms have had chances to prove themselves... where has that got them?

[Poet]

Colts were far from a great defense when they won the superbowl in 2006...I dont know where you got that...

Defense wins championships= not true

great overall teams win championships... not just defense or offense...

That was my point and you missed it. The Colts offense got them there...ever year. And they never did anything. Then, one year, the Colts offense sputtered in the postseason, but their defense played great. That's the point.

Defense does win championships. Go look at all the SBw inning teams and look at where their defenses rank.

You are more likely to win a SB with a defensive team then you are with an offensive team.

It's a fact.

[EMB6903]

I dont think thats true at all....yes a lot of superbowl teams have great defensive rankings but also... look at the offensive rankings as well...... most all were ranked in the top 10 in both offense and defense.... the "defense wins championships" is so over-rated

it takes a great overall team to win a championship... from offense to defense to special teams....

[Poet]

I dont think thats true at all....yes a lot of superbowl teams have great defensive rankings but also... look at the offensive rankings as well...... most all were ranked in the top 10 in both offense and defense.... the "defense wins championships" is so over-rated

it takes a great overall team to win a championship... from offense to defense to special teams....

You will find more defensive orientated teams than not....

[Benetto]

Good offenses are made from championship caliber Defenses...Its not the other way around. (See 2008 Broncos). ranked #2 on O..our QB throws for 25 TDs, gets sacked ONLY 11 or so times, and Breaks the Bronco record for Yards in a season with 4500.

Our Defense? not so good. Not a good "All around team"....but we should still blow 10 million or more of our cap space on a Junior QB who hasn't played one NFL down....Mark Sanchez will REALLY make us a better "ALL AROUND TEAM"...You're still contradicting urself and making urself look like a complete fool.

What a friggin joke....Defenses don't win Championships...

[Den21vsBal19]

the ones I bolded were who I thought most would describe as nothing more then Game managers.

so out of the 43 superbowls played 27 years has a team with a Hall of fame quarterback or future HOFer has won the superbowl and only and 35 times has a team with a franchise Quarterback has won a superbowl

Notice no teams with average quarterbacks ever repeated.

Have I made my point that you need a great Quarterback to succeed in this league?

Terry Bradshaw's in the hall because of the SB wins, I'd say he completely disproves the theory that you need a great QB...........his career line over 14 seasons, 27,989 yards, 212 TDs, 210 INTS & 70.9 rating. Only twice was he in the top 5 QBs in the league........................a QB that got into the hall because he played for a great team, not because he was a great player.

[elsid13]

It appears that this team will draft a QB this year, question is when. Looking at Sanchez the are the positives and negatives about him in my mind.

Positivies:
Quick Release
Good understanding of offenses and the game
Nice feet in pocket (he mobile and can move the pocket, but unlike Cutler isn't a threat to run)
Slightly above arm (can make the NFL throws, but will need to take what the coverage gives him)
Good footwork

Negatives
Lack of playing time
Will need to work on decision making/reads and speeding that up
Will struggle with the passing windows in the PROs
Will need to learn what "open" means in the Pros vs PAC-10
He will need to speed up on his drops.

[Dirk]

I wouldn't mind grabbing Sanchez at 18, but they need to get the BEST defensive player at 12 and they don't need to move up to grab Sanchez.

I hope it is all a smoke screen.

[Scarface]

Picking a QB high isn't only a risk it's an expensive risk.



Picking any position high is an expensive risk. There is no guaranteed star in the draft. Ever player has some risk.

[Nomad]

Picking any position high is an expensive risk. There is no guaranteed star in the draft. Ever player has some risk.

True! The draft is a gamble, especially the 1st round. Teams put out alot of money and hopefully the player is not a bust or a frequent visitor to IR! Which there are always players who don't pan out in the NFL but cost a boat load of money, I wonder who that will be in this draft, hopefully no one the BRONCOS pick;):lol:!!

[SmilinAssasSin27]

why would they be wrong? its an opinion.... and Eli Manning has had a very impressive career so far...Hes more then just a game manager, thats for sure..

and Ben Roethlisberger is definately more then a game manager.... theres no doubt about that

Steelers played the NFC East, and AFC South last year.... look at the defenses in those divisons? not to mention playing in the afc north where you have to play Baltimore twice a year...

also can I ask you a question?

John Elway
1986= 19 tds to 13 ints
1987= 19 tds to 12 ints
1988= 18 tds to 18 ints
1989= 15 tds to 14 ints

was Elway just a game manager because his stats would say so?

I say no... hes still the greatest of alltime.

Stats are great to judge a player but some times they are very misleading

We dropped 3 INTs vs Pitt in 05

Palmer was cheap shotted (new word) out of the game at Cincy and the best FG kicker in history, percentage wise, missed a chipshot in Indy. And let's not forget that Ben needed his WRs to toss the TDv passes in the SB. Hardly noteworthy.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_12169223?source=rss

Even if it's not a potential franchise quarterback such as Mark Sanchez, sheer numbers say the Broncos will select a quarterback in the upcoming draft.

The Broncos finished the 2008 season with three quarterbacks: Jay Cutler, Patrick Ramsey and Darrell Hackney. All were long gone from Dove Valley on Friday when inclement weather forced the Broncos to move their first minicamp session down the street to an indoor sports bubble.

Luckily for the repetition of it all, Kyle Orton and Chris Simms are healthy. They are all the Broncos have to take snaps from center. Although two veterans with playoff pedigrees may be fine come early September with the start of the regular season, most NFL rosters carry a third quarterback.

"You don't want to go into training camp with only two quarterbacks, certainly, but it's doable if that's what the situation is," Broncos coach Josh McDaniels said. "But you would love to have a third quarterback that could be competitive."

Expect that third passer to come either next Saturday, when the Broncos have the No. 12, No. 18 and No. 48 picks through the first two rounds of the NFL draft, or next Sunday, when they start their day with two picks in the third round and end it with two more in the seventh.

The Broncos' next quarterback may not be Sanchez, the latest product from the quarterback factory that is the University of Southern California. But then again, it might.

According to an NFL source, McDaniels and Broncos general manager Brian Xanders have scheduled a private workout with Sanchez for next Tuesday.

"I know it sounds like the hokey answer or whatever, but it's the truth — to be a quarterback in this league you have to be able to let things roll off your shoulders," Simms said about the prospect of the Broncos drafting a quarterback with a top pick. "There's too many talk shows, a lot of you guys writing articles, and you guys aren't always going to say good things about me, and I understand that."

With an extra pick in the first and third rounds, the Broncos have plenty of trade ammunition to move up from their No. 12 spot to select Sanchez, who figures to go somewhere in the top 10.

Draft analyst Mike Mayock of the NFL Network says Sanchez has a better NFL future than the other two quarterbacks projected for the first round, Georgia's Matthew Stafford and Kansas State's Josh Freeman.

"Sanchez is most accurate of the three," Mayock said. "He might not have as much arm strength. He might not be quite as exciting. But at the end of the day, if I've got a top-10 pick and my job is on the line at the quarterback position, I'm taking Sanchez."

The Broncos have several options with their five picks within the top three rounds next weekend. One thought is to use the bulk of their early picks on fortifying the defensive front seven. Select a nose tackle such as B.J. Raji, Peria Jerry or Ron Brace; a defensive end such as Tyson Jackson or Robert Ayers; and either a pass rusher like Brian Orakpo or a safety like Malcolm Jenkins or Louis Delmas.

Get a quarterback later, where such undeveloped but proven winners such as Stephen McGee, John Parker Wilson and Graham Harrell can be had.

"This draft could really strengthen the defense," said Mel Kiper Jr., the original draft guru. "And it will be interesting to see if Sanchez is in the plans. I think at some point they're going to draft a quarterback late, as they typically have under McDaniels. This will be a fun draft to see how they work it, and I think it's got to be defense. They have a chance to really step it up, and they have to."

Remember, McDaniels came from New England, which got Tom Brady in the sixth round and Matt Cassel, who didn't start one college game at quarterback, in the seventh. When rating quarterbacks, McDaniels places a greater value on won-loss records than most scouts might. This became obvious when he flirted with the idea of dealing Cutler for Cassel, which led to a fractured relationship that in turn led to the trade of Cutler for Orton and a trove of draft picks.

McDaniels will likely see quality quarterbacks in this draft when others won't.

"We've evaluated all the quarterbacks in this draft, and there's more than a handful that are pretty good players and would fit in and play well in this league and for our team," Mc- Daniels said. "If it fit right where we had to draft a player, then we would be interested in drafting a quarterback if that would help us."

Another draft plan would be for the Broncos to package the No. 12 pick and another draft pick and move inside the top 10 to get Sanchez. The thinking here is that after trading away a franchise-caliber, young quarterback in Cutler, the Broncos should recoup the loss of such a rare commodity while they're in such an advantageous draft position.

Sanchez, the thinking goes, would immediately give the Broncos great value in return for Cutler.

"The way I look at this is, there's only six or seven franchise quarterbacks in this league," Mayock said. "Getting rid of one of them, I don't understand the whole thing. But now what you do is you go get another one. And the guy that fits them the best is Sanchez."

Mike Klis: 303-954-1055 or mklis@denverpost.com

[Nomad]

I'm no where near a draft guru, but if McDaniels had to have Sanchez, does he have to give up one of the #1s this year or could he give up one of the #1s from next year to move up for Sanchez (confused yet:D). I'm not sure a team would want to do this, I assume!! I like the QB draft class next year and I'd rather see 12,18, and 48 go to defense!

[Northman]

I'm no where near a draft guru, but if McDaniels had to have Sanchez, does he have to give up one of the #1s this year or could he give up one of the #1s from next year to move up for Sanchez (confused yet:D). I'm not sure a team would want to do this, I assume!! I like the QB draft class next year and I'd rather see 12,18, and 48 go to defense!

I really dont think McD is going to take a Qb this year. The history with him regarding QB's in NE says otherwise and he has already come out and said he likes what he sees from Orton and Simms so to me i just dont see it. I think a lot of this is just smoke screens.

[Nomad]

I really dont think McD is going to take a Qb this year. The history with him regarding QB's in NE says otherwise and he has already come out and said he likes what he sees from Orton and Simms so to me i just dont see it. I think a lot of this is just smoke screens.

I agree with the smoke screen and I'm all for giving Orton and Simms a try. Just being curious, would a team be willing to give up a #1 this year (especially if they're in the top 8) to have 2 #1s next year!

[Den21vsBal19]

I really dont think McD is going to take a Qb this year. The history with him regarding QB's in NE says otherwise and he has already come out and said he likes what he sees from Orton and Simms so to me i just dont see it. I think a lot of this is just smoke screens.
I'd agree........................bringing Sanchez in to workout has to get some of the teams below us wondering................

And if McD hadn't been convinced that Orton could do him a job for a few years at least, trading Cutler to the Skins for Campbell & #13 (plus next year's first rounder) would have made more sense

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I don't think we trade up. reports say that teams offered more to us than Chicago did for Cutler. If McD was intent on getting a rookie QB, he'd have taken the better offer. I think he likes Orton, but would take a real long look at Sanchez if he fell to 12.

[Nomad]

....Didn't know where to put this, but interesting article though it's from last week!!!

---------------

Hungry to trade up? Numbers show it's usually wrong way to go
April 6, 2009
By Chad Reuter
NFLDraftScout.com Senior Analyst
Tell Chad your opinion!




The Bears and Broncos kicked off the April festivities with the Jay Cutler blockbuster that brought Denver the 18th overall pick and a third-rounder this year to go along with a first-round pick next year.


The Cutler blockbuster opens the draft-trade season in high style. (AP)
By the end of the first round April 25, history tells us eight or nine deals will be completed that involve first-round selections. Another 40-plus will follow over the next six rounds.

It's unlikely many of those trades will come within the top 10 overall picks -- those spots don't hold the allure they once did due to the massive amount of guaranteed money those players will command.

But there will be plenty of buzz in the opening hours at Radio City Music Hall when NFL commissioner Roger Goodell steps to the lectern to announce, "There has been a trade."

Do teams trading up to get that coveted prospect or veteran typically get the better end of the bargain? Or does the trade-down philosophy really enable teams to stockpile more contributors on the roster?

Let's investigate.

Ups and downs
A team typically trades up because it believes a particular player could take them to the next level -- whether it's trying to return to contention or reach the Super Bowl.

But reaching for a need or for one player at a position brings inherent risk. The data below actually suggests the team trading up usually gets less production from the player(s) it receives than the team trading down.

The statistics are compiled from 169 pick-for-pick trades completed from 1994-2008. Only trades in which both teams used all picks in the current draft to select players were included, which eliminates those including future picks or where a team moved one of its new picks to another team.

Trades are categorized by the top pick included. Each player selected through these trades was given a point value based on his performance for each season he played with that team. Players received one point in a season they played for the team but started less than eight games, three points if they started between eight and 15 games, five points if they started all 16 games and 12 points if they reached the Pro Bowl or were named to an All-Pro team.

The point values were assigned based on the likelihood of a player achieving each level. For example, players are approximately 12 times less likely to be Pro Bowlers/All-Pros than reserves in a given season so they receive 12 times the points for reaching that level of success.


Trade Success: Pick-for-pick
Pick-for-pick Team moving up Average points
Traded picks Win percentage Per trade per team
1-10 37.5 35.8
11-20 58.3 22.0
21-32 18.2 13.4
33-50 33.3 13.8
51-64 35.0 14.6
65-96 42.0 10.8
97-130 44.8 6.7
131+ 51.4 4.1
All picks 42.6 12.0
There are only two selection areas where the team trading up has a better than 50 percent chance of winning the trade, according to the terms used here. Moving up into the Nos. 11-20 overall area has been the best bet over time, as teams benefited from picking up players like Cutler, Ravens defensive lineman Haloti Ngata and former Raiders wide receiver Javon Walker.

Of course, the other side of that equation is the players selected by the team trading down. The Packers used the throw-in fifth-round pick in the 2002 trade of Walker (Green Bay moved up to No. 20 overall) to select Pro Bowl defensive end Aaron Kampman, while the Seahawks selected tight end Jerramy Stevens and defensive lineman Anton Palepoi with their new first- and second-round choices. Decisions made by both teams determine the final result of any trade.

The other area of the draft where trading up pays off more often than not (although just barely) is on Sunday afternoon. Unfortunately, the average production points per trade from the late fourth through the seventh rounds is so low that winning those trades doesn't really translate into a significant difference on the field.

The numbers show that each team receives an average of 35.8 points per trade when the top pick is in the top 10 overall selections. That's the equivalent of finding a six- to seven-season starter who could be a Pro Bowl candidate.

The average point value for trades outside the first three rounds, however, is 5.2 -- that equates to finding a two- or three-year reserve or special teams contributor. There just aren't a lot of Tom Bradys and Terrell Davises available late on Sunday, even if you trade up into the fourth or fifth rounds.


Figuring the odds
There are a couple of ways for teams trading up within the first three rounds to give themselves a better chance at success.

For the team moving up, the likelihood of winning a trade increases when the jump is only a few spots. If the team trading up moves five or less spots, its chance of gaining more points than its trade partner is 47.9 percent. Moving up between six and 20 spaces brings only a 33.3-39.8 percent chance of winning the trade.

This occurs because the extra pick traded away to move up the one or two spots comes on Sunday afternoon and has a low likelihood of becoming a really strong player. It's hard to blame the team trading down, however, as it still likely got the player it wanted (at a lesser contract) plus it received that extra choice, even if he doesn't have a great chance of succeeding at the next level.

Franchises' interested in moving up in the top two rounds can also maximize their success by insisting on a throw-in pick in the fifth or sixth rounds. The Packers-Seahawks trade mentioned earlier is one good example of how getting that late pick can potentially pay off. Although history tells us that finding a Pro Bowl player in the fifth round is fairly small, it is better than nothing.

Of the eight two-for-two pick trades within the 169 examined in this article, the team trading up won four and tied two more. The fact that only eight of 169 trades were two-for-two shows that teams trading down are typically attempting to stockpile draft picks.

After making a trade to move up for a coveted prospect in the first rounds, some teams attempt to trade down from one of its other selections to regain the lost pick. If those new picks come in the third or fourth rounds, they could potentially lessen the blow. But trying to make up for the loss of a second-round pick by picking up a couple of sixth-round picks is not likely to be successful.


Veteran presence
History is not on the side of wide receiver Roy Williams being a big success in Dallas, at least in comparison to that of the first- and third--round selections the Cowboys sent to the Lions in the deal.

Player-for-pick trades have similar history to the pick-for-pick trades. According to the data below, which applies the same points system used in the previous table on 249 such trades from 1994-2008, gaining veterans by trading picks becomes generally more successful the later the lost pick comes.

Trade Success: Player-for-pick
Player-for-pick Team moving up Average points
Traded picks Win percentage Per trade per team
1-20 30.0 25.4
21-50 33.3 24.1
51-64 71.4 10.3
65-80 35.7 13.4
81-96 40.0 8.1
97-115 63.9 7.8
116-130 36.7 2.8
131-150 31.7 5.8
151-165 57.1 4.4
166-185 56.6 2.7
186-200 68.0 2.2
201+ 61.7 3.5
All Picks 52.2 6.7
Teams giving up top 150 picks for a veteran have about a 40-60 chance of seeing more production from that player than the draft picks given up in the deal. Two of the selection areas (51-64, 97-115) have seen better results than the others, however, as good teams appear to have the ability to fit in veterans like wide receiver Wes Welker (New England), defensive end Trace Armstrong (Miami) and defensive back Aeneas Williams (St. Louis) into the fold.

As for the fourth-round pick (No. 110 overall) the Raiders received for wide receiver Randy Moss? Cornerback John Bowie has a long road ahead to match Moss' production in New England -- even if he recovers from the knee injury that sidelined him all of last season.

Most player-for-pick trades involve fourth- to seventh-round picks, however, which is why the overall success rate for the teams receiving the player crosses the 50 percent barrier.

But the average point total for each team in these trades is even lower than those involving late-round draft picks. They only get one or two years as a reserve from the veteran they gained.


General George Cutler
There haven't been many trades similar to the one the Broncos and Bears pulled off April 2. But one seems to stick out as a particularly interesting comparison.

In March 1994, the Colts sent off malcontent (and disappointing) quarterback Jeff George to the Falcons for two first-round picks and a third-rounder. This was only four years after Indianapolis gave up players and picks to move into the No. 1 overall slot to select George in the 1990 draft.

Some detractors have compared Cutler to George because both have great physical talents but have struggled to prove they have the maturity to match. It's too early to judge Cutler, but his reputation certainly took a hit during the unfolding drama.

So how did that 1994 trade turn out? The Falcons got two-plus seasons out of George before he made himself unwelcome by ripping the team's coaches and administration. The Colts used the future first-round pick to select eight-time Pro Bowl wide receiver Marvin Harrison. But then they traded that year's first- and third-round picks gained from Atlanta to move up and select linebacker Trev Alberts, who spent just three injury-filled years in the league.

Denver could likely move into the top five overall picks on April 25 by using its No. 12 and 18 picks, bringing Southern Cal quarterback Mark Sanchez into play. All of the free agents the Broncos signed this offseason may lead them to believe they can afford to spend two high picks to find a future franchise quarterback.

But the Broncos might want to consider the historical evidence in this article before making another big splash.

Chad Reuter is a Senior Analyst for NFLDraftScout.com, distributed by The Sports Xchange.

[Superchop 7]

This may be one of the best posts I have seen in awhile.

Defense is the most important part of the team.

Peyton Manning only won a SB when his defense played great.

The Cardinals couldn't beat the Steelers (note that it also shows that you do need some sort of capable offense, but then again Big Ben and the Steeler offense wasn't exactly lighting it up all year either)

The Giants' defense, which was very good, but definitely will not be remembered as one of the greatest defenses ever, beat the greatest defense ever

The list goes on and on and on. If you want to be a real playoff team that is constantly in the mix for a championship then you need to have a great defense that has a system. Pittsburgh, Baltimore, New England, and even the Eagles all have a system. You know what they are going to do, you even know how they will do it. And for those who say otherwise, even the Ravens only have so many viable blitz packages, so don't try to debate that.

Offense and QBs are overrated. Offensive teams are fun to watch, hell, they can get to the playoffs a lot. Defensive teams are "boring". They don't score as much, their offenses tend to run off of a run and playaction game. Then again, tell me how much fun the Steelers had this year...

__________________________________________________ __________________________

Regarding the Giants


Giants Super Bowl victory was a fluke. Eli Manning escaping the grasp of the Patritots was a fluke. David Tyree's wondrous catch was a fluke.

"The 14 points allowed, that was not a fluke," Reese said. "You can stop right there if you want to."

-------------------

Keep in mind....the Giants "throttled" the top 3 scoring offenses in the league in the postseason.

10 of the last 13 Super Bowl Winners had a top 10 defense.

4 of the past 13 Super Bowl winners had a top 10 offense.

----------

IMO, defense wins championships, thats priority number #1.

-----------

HOWEVER,,,,,

There is a reason you see Franchise QB's winning Super Bowls, imo, if your game plan is working any joe-blow QB will win the game.

In the post-season, it is rare that your game plan is going to be enough to win.....you have to rely on your QB and his abilities, as well as your RB.

-----------

Do I think we should draft Sanchez ?

No, our needs on defense are too great, and defense should be priority #1, but I do think we "will" need a stud QB and RB if we ever want to make noise in the postseason. The important thing for this team is to have a top 10 defense....and "hope" that the offense can stay in the top 10.

Had we landed a couple of stud d-linemen in FA, I would be all for drafting Sanchez, but our front 7 is thin as paper, it seems to me that we wasted our money by signing guys just for the sake of signing guys. Just think, if Canty and Rodgers were on board, how easy would it be to fill out the roster ? Sanchez, Moreno, Delmas, Brinkley, Harris, W Williams......hell....this would have been a cakewalk.........instead we spent a bunch of money on backups and still have glaring holes to fill.

For that matter, think of just 3 additions, Curry, Canty, and Rodgers......just those 3 guys would change the defense dramatically.......the only thing that kept us from doing this .........was us.

[Poet]

We dropped 3 INTs vs Pitt in 05

Palmer was cheap shotted (new word) out of the game at Cincy and the best FG kicker in history, percentage wise, missed a chipshot in Indy. And let's not forget that Ben needed his WRs to toss the TDv passes in the SB. Hardly noteworthy.

Carson Palmer was not cheap shotted. The Kimo von Oelhoffen play was a very hard pill to swallow for Cincinnati fans. But the hit was legal, it did not warrant a flag. The league did make a rule change, and I think it has the nickname the Carson Palmer rule, but it wasn't a cheap shot. If you see the entire play you'll see Kimo look down at Palmer and see that he's hurt and he starts to shake his body and head in disgust.

Kimo was a Bengal the year before, and he and Palmer were friends.

I don't think you can summarize the Colts Steelers game that easily. Yeah, Vanderliquor missed a FG, but the Colts got lucky on the first Jerome Bettis fumble in like 2 and a half years and 500 carries or so. It goes both ways on that one.

As far as Denver versus Pittsburgh, I saw that game and they just beat you. In every last phase of the game they were better. I even saw Hines Ward abuse Champ Bailey, you weren't winning that game.

[EMB6903]

Terry Bradshaw's in the hall because of the SB wins, I'd say he completely disproves the theory that you need a great QB...........his career line over 14 seasons, 27,989 yards, 212 TDs, 210 INTS & 70.9 rating. Only twice was he in the top 5 QBs in the league........................a QB that got into the hall because he played for a great team, not because he was a great player.

Terry Bradshaw was definately a great player and a league MVP I dont know how you could argue somebody who was the league MVP wasnt a great player...

is it statistics?

you realize it was a completely different era back than as far as QB play went right?

Bart Starr= 154 tds to 138 ints
Joe Namath= 170 tds to 220 ints
Bob Griese= 192 tds to 172 ints
George Blanda= 236 tds to 277 ints


are these bad players because the stats say so?

if yes then the HOF disagrees

also you mentioned Bradshaw only twice was bradshaw top 5 in the league in passing statistics... can you tell how many years John Elway was top 5 in passing statistics?

[EMB6903]

We dropped 3 INTs vs Pitt in 05

Palmer was cheap shotted (new word) out of the game at Cincy and the best FG kicker in history, percentage wise, missed a chipshot in Indy. And let's not forget that Ben needed his WRs to toss the TDv passes in the SB. Hardly noteworthy.

no offense but this is a reach...discrediting Big Bens play because a missed FG, the opposing QB got hurt (like it would have mattered) so all the success he had was pretty much luck.. right?

[rcsodak]

ya I really wish it was that easy.... to find a Tom Brady in the late rounds or a Kurt Warner and Tony Romo as undrafted players.... but it just isnt like that.... Its just not realistic to think we are going to get a franchise caller in the late rounds.

And just because you draft somebody in the 1st round doesn't mean they're going to be worth a shit either.

I'd say there's been plenty of examples of that, just in the last 10yrs.

There are 3-4 qb's that should be available from rounds 3 on, that could be just as easily picked, and just as good, imo.

The McShay's of the world are morons, and don't spend enough time looking at team needs in the long term. They simply think, you lose your starting qb, you need to draft one early.

How dumb.

[rcsodak]

Cutler was the shiz...and yeah, I did expect that from him. If a dude can take VANDERBILT into Knoxville and beat the Vols...he's pretty friggin good.

Was Manning their QB at the time?

They beat Auburn this last year....and Mississippi....and Kentucky....and BC...and SCarolina. Maybe denver should just wait for their qb to enter the draft.

:coffee:

Cut-n-run'er had a losing record. Period. End of story. He's not a winner.

[rcsodak]

Im not to sure I believe that Mcdaniels thinks Orton or Simms are going to be the starter in Denver longer than 2 years.... I certainly hope not... and Im all for improving the team... and I think drafting Mark Sanchez would improve this team.

we still have 4 of the first 100 picks after #12... its not like we have to go defense #12 or we are screwed for the next 5 years.... because its a lot easier to find a solid defensive talent in the later rounds than it is a franchise signal caller...wouldnt you agree?

Ask Shanny about that!

I'd say it's easier to find QB's late that can succeed, than "solid defensive talent".

And Sanchez sux! How do you win a game 28-0, and yet, only pass for 50%, and 3 int's?

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Yeah, probably not. Shanahan rarely went after defensive talent in the drafts, especially in the late rounds. Obviously, there are more late-round defensive starters in the league today then there are starting Day 2 QB's.

"How dumb."

[EMB6903]

Ask Shanny about that!

I'd say it's easier to find QB's late that can succeed, than "solid defensive talent".

And Sanchez sux! How do you win a game 28-0, and yet, only pass for 50%, and 3 int's?

and I'd say you are crazy for thinking that, because its a lot easier to find defensive talent in the late rounds then a good QB talent..... just because Shanahan failed drafting defensive players doesnt mean its harder then finding a great quality QB in the late rounds.

[Ravage!!!]

I think its easier to find ANY starting positions in later rounds than it is to find starting QB talent. There are exceptions to every rule....

[Den21vsBal19]

Terry Bradshaw was definately a great player and a league MVP I dont know how you could argue somebody who was the league MVP wasnt a great player...

is it statistics?

you realize it was a completely different era back than as far as QB play went right?

Bart Starr= 154 tds to 138 ints
Joe Namath= 170 tds to 220 ints
Bob Griese= 192 tds to 172 ints
George Blanda= 236 tds to 277 ints


are these bad players because the stats say so?

if yes then the HOF disagrees

also you mentioned Bradshaw only twice was bradshaw top 5 in the league in passing statistics... can you tell how many years John Elway was top 5 in passing statistics?
4 times ;)

And in a slightly different, but overlapping era, didn't Tarkenton put up 47,000 yards and around a +80 TD/Int figure? Didn't both Griese & Starr have positive TD/Int ratios?

Bradshaw played in a very good Pittsburgh side that will forever be associated with the Steel Curtain............not Bradshaw's offense. But the QB is the player who is judged by wins & losses.

Hell, Plummer passed for more yards and a higher career rating.......................including all that time in the desert :lol:

[EMB6903]

4 times ;)

And in a slightly different, but overlapping era, didn't Tarkenton put up 47,000 yards and around a +80 TD/Int figure? Didn't both Griese & Starr have positive TD/Int ratios?

Bradshaw played in a very good Pittsburgh side that will forever be associated with the Steel Curtain............not Bradshaw's offense. But the QB is the player who is judged by wins & losses.

Hell, Plummer passed for more yards and a higher career rating.......................including all that time in the desert :lol:

4 times in 16 years to Bradshaw's 2 in 14?..... not too far off..

Namath and Blanda both had more INT's then TD's... were these guys bad Quarterbacks?

How can you say a league MVP was never great?

thats all Im asking

[EMB6903]

Also, Tarkenton played 18 seasons and started 81 more games as well as having 2566 more passing attempts then Bradshaw.

[TXBRONC]

Colts were far from a great defense when they won the superbowl in 2006...I dont know where you got that...

Defense wins championships= not true

great overall teams win championships... not just defense or offense...

Then maybe you didn't see the playoffs that year. While the Colts defense was terrible during the regular season they played great during playoffs three years ago.

[Shazam!]

2006 Indy Defense League rankings-

Passing-
Total Atts- 2
Passing Yards- 2
TDs- 5

Rushing-
Rushing Atts- 31st
Rush Yards- 32nd
Scoring- 30th

I am not a big believer in Stats being the be all end all measuring stick. I don't know if it was one or two big games an Indy opponent had against them on the ground that would jack up their run defense stats.

In Week 6 vs. Oakland in '97, the Broncos allowed two huge TD runs and almost 200 yards on the ground against Oakland and Napolean Kaufman, and suddenly they had the worst defense in the NFL which was a lie.

...and to keep this on topic, no Mark Sanchez in Denver pretty please.

[EMB6903]

Then maybe you didn't see the playoffs that year. While the Colts defense was terrible during the regular season they played great during playoffs three years ago.


and the 2002 Bucs offense stepped up during their playoff run.... averaging over 30+ a game during that playoff run...in 2000 Ravens offense averaged over 25ppg during their playoff run as well..

Like I said.. no great offense or great defense wins you a championship... you need to have a great overall team to win it all....

[Shazam!]

Balanced teams win, but if you have a top offense or defense that will help the other side look good.

[TXBRONC]

and the 2002 Bucs offense stepped up during their playoff run.... averaging over 30+ a game during that playoff run...in 2000 Ravens offense averaged over 25ppg during their playoff run as well..

Like I said.. no great offense or great defense wins you a championship... you need to have a great overall team to win it all....

You seem leaving off the fact that the defense of those respective teams were actually scoring points. If I remember correctly when Buccaneers won the Super Bowl it was their defense was directly responsible for something like 21 points.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

no offense but this is a reach...discrediting Big Bens play because a missed FG, the opposing QB got hurt (like it would have mattered) so all the success he had was pretty much luck.. right?

The point is that you wanna make Ben a HOFer because of the rings, but he has never been the main cog. The defense and some very fortunate circumstances are what got em the titles. And more power to em. I never said that Pitt didn't also make their own luck, BUT Ben was just there. It's especially interesting to me that they felt they needed the trick plays to win..you know, the ones when they use the WRs to actually toss the TDs... Big Ben is not all that. I live here in the middle of it. Half the fans aren't big on him either.

[Scarface]

The point is that you wanna make Ben a HOFer because of the rings, but he has never been the main cog. The defense and some very fortunate circumstances are what got em the titles. And more power to em. I never said that Pitt didn't also make their own luck, BUT Ben was just there. It's especially interesting to me that they felt they needed the trick plays to win..you know, the ones when they use the WRs to actually toss the TDs... Big Ben is not all that. I live here in the middle of it. Half the fans aren't big on him either.

Yeah but we all know when it's said and done he'll be a Pittsburgh Steeler QB with some rings on his fingers.....therefore he'll go in the HOF.

[Scarface]

Then maybe you didn't see the playoffs that year. While the Colts defense was terrible during the regular season they played great during playoffs three years ago.

It was definitely defense and running game that won them that championship. It sure wasn't Manning with his 3tds/7int performance that sealed the deal. It was the return of Bob Sanders.

[Den21vsBal19]

It was definitely defense and running game that won them that championship. It sure wasn't Manning with his 3tds/7int performance that sealed the deal. It was the return of Bob Sanders.
That's the thing, IMO......................a 'franchise' QB will give might give you the extra 10% to push you over the top..........................we're still missing around 40% of the other 90 that we need

[Poet]

4 times in 16 years to Bradshaw's 2 in 14?..... not too far off..

Namath and Blanda both had more INT's then TD's... were these guys bad Quarterbacks?

How can you say a league MVP was never great?

thats all Im asking

Terry Bradshaw was an awful QB.

Namath was better at chasing women and drinking liquor then he was at football.

[Nomad]

Are they holding this workout in his hometown or at USC????

[EMB6903]

Terry Bradshaw was an awful QB.

Namath was better at chasing women and drinking liquor then he was at football.

I dont know if I could take you serious after this comment...

Namath was the first Quarterback to ever throw for 4000 yards..id say in the 60's thats one hell of an accomplishment..... and Bradshaw was a league MVP

Have a good one.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Like I said.. no great offense or great defense wins you a championship... you need to have a great overall team to win it all....

But isn't thiis what you've been arguing AGAINST for the past few days? My basic point has been that you don't need to have the greatest QB in the league to win and you have tried to show that only HOFers/franchise/studs/etc at QB can win it all.

As this overall argument is becoming tiring, here is my point in summation.

Not all GREAT QBs win SBs...Marino, etc

Not all SB winners had GREAT QBs..Brad Johnson, etc

A GOOD QB can win a SB if the rest of the team does it's part.

Agree or disagree?

[Den21vsBal19]

I dont know if I could take you serious after this comment...

Namath was the first Quarterback to ever throw for 4000 yards..id say in the 60's thats one hell of an accomplishment..... and Bradshaw was a league MVP

Have a good one.
Rich Gannon was also a league MVP, as I recall....................even a good player can have a great season, and deserve the award....................doesn't mean he's a great player though......

[Poet]

I dont know if I could take you serious after this comment...

Namath was the first Quarterback to ever throw for 4000 yards..id say in the 60's thats one hell of an accomplishment..... and Bradshaw was a league MVP

Have a good one.

That's fine, whether or not you take me seriously is of no relevance to me at all.

Bradshaw was awful. Even in his era his stats were subpar. He played on a team that had one of the greatest defenses ever. He had two HOF wideouts, he had a HOF RB. He had a very strong offensive line. The Steelers may have had the greatest team ever.

And he still sucked. He had a strong arm. He had a weak mind. He http://www.nfl.com/players/terrybradshaw/profile?id=BRA301078

It took him five seasons, half a decade to throw more TDs than INTs. Only once in his career was he able to throw twice as many TDs as INTs. Not only was he not a great QB, he wasn't even a good one.

http://www.nfl.com/players/joenamath/profile?id=NAM415291

Namath being one of the greatest QBs ever based on the merits of him being the first guy to throw for 4k yards is dumb. Wow, a ton of yards. Yay, a ton of yards.

[rcsodak]

Mark Rypien
Doug Williams
Jeff Hostetler
anyone got 2 more?

Roethslisberger
Simms

[rcsodak]

Why do you want Sanchez so bad? Look at the success rat of QB's that havent graduated college. Not saying the degree means anything, just saying it avoids one hit wonders.

Of the 16 underclassmen qb's taken since 1990, when it was deemed allowable to enter the draft early, 8 are considered busts.

I don't think taking a flyer on a 50-50 player, with the cap as it is, is worth the hit.

Nothing like setting a franchise back 3-4yrs.

[Lonestar]

I hope they do not waste a pick on a QB on day one.. Regardless of the stats or the thoughts that a "franchise" QB has to be a High draft choice..

For that matter franchise QB are the only way to get into the playoffs..

that franchise QB's are born and not made...



Most potential franchise QB's wind up on lousy teams and some real QB's are on average teams so no one really knows who is or supposedly isn't.

Personally I believe franchise QB's are mostly made and fall into great situations and not born..

[rcsodak]

Colts were far from a great defense when they won the superbowl in 2006...I dont know where you got that...

Defense wins championships= not true

great overall teams win championships... not just defense or offense...

I hope you have small feet. :coffee:

[rcsodak]

and the 2002 Bucs offense stepped up during their playoff run.... averaging over 30+ a game during that playoff run...in 2000 Ravens offense averaged over 25ppg during their playoff run as well..

Like I said.. no great offense or great defense wins you a championship... you need to have a great overall team to win it all....



Balt 21 - Den 3

5sacks, 4punts inside the 20, held Den to 135yds passing, 3.6yp, less than 50% completions, 42yds rushing, 2.3ypc

Defense won!

Balt 34 - Ten 10

Dilfer threw for 117yds, 31% completionss, sacked 3x, qb rating of 58.
McNair had a qb rating of 52.

Ray Lewis ran back an int for a TD!

Defense won!

Balt 16 - Oak 3

Dilfer 50% completions, running game 2.4ypc, 4punts inside the 20, 4 int's
Oak ran for 24 yds. Their best player was Lechler, the punter!

Defense won!

[rcsodak]

The point is that you wanna make Ben a HOFer because of the rings, but he has never been the main cog. The defense and some very fortunate circumstances are what got em the titles. And more power to em. I never said that Pitt didn't also make their own luck, BUT Ben was just there. It's especially interesting to me that they felt they needed the trick plays to win..you know, the ones when they use the WRs to actually toss the TDs... Big Ben is not all that. I live here in the middle of it. Half the fans aren't big on him either.

I think it's safe to say, that Pitt won their 5th SB DESPITE Roethlisberger.

[MOtorboat]

I think it's safe to say, that Pitt won their 5th SB DESPITE Roethlisberger.

Yup, um...lol...

Because making that throw to the back end of the endzone, with the game on the line, can be done by EVERYONE.

[Ravage!!!]

I think it's safe to say, that Pitt won their 5th SB DESPITE Roethlisberger.

I won't agree with that..... and don't think MOST people in the football industry would agree with you. So its safe to say :laugh: (meaning it won't get you beat over the head with a stick) I don't think its an accurate statement.

[TXBRONC]

Yup, um...lol...

Because making that throw to the back end of the endzone, with the game on the line, can be done by EVERYONE.

RC is talking about Ben's first Super Bowl with Steelers.

[MOtorboat]

RC is talking about Ben's first Super Bowl with Steelers.

That's not very apparent, especially after he claimed that Roethlisberger was akin to one-hit wonders, AFTER Roethlisberger has won his second Super Bowl.

[rcsodak]

That's not very apparent, especially after he claimed that Roethlisberger was akin to one-hit wonders, AFTER Roethlisberger has won his second Super Bowl.

Most people, not in Missouri, will have noticed I said "5th SB".

"akin"? I ain't NEVER talked about your arkansas cousins!!! :eek:

[TXBRONC]

I won't agree with that..... and don't think MOST people in the football industry would agree with you. So its safe to say :laugh: (meaning it won't get you beat over the head with a stick) I don't think its an accurate statement.

In Super Bowl XL Ben had 9 completions in 21 attempts for 123 yards, 0 touchdowns (passing) and 2 interceptions. But this last Super Bowl was a totally different story.

[rcsodak]

I won't agree with that..... and don't think MOST people in the football industry would agree with you. So its safe to say :laugh: (meaning it won't get you beat over the head with a stick) I don't think its an accurate statement.
9-21, 123yds, 2 int's,0 td's

How's that foot taste, rav? :lol:

*edit* good observation, tx. ('bout time ;) )

[MOtorboat]

9-21, 123yds, 2 int's,0 td's

How's that foot taste, rav? :lol:

He was 21-29, 275 yds, 2 TDs, 0 INTs, and had a QB rating of 124.9 against Denver in the AFC Championship game...

I guess I'm really not understanding the point here. :noidea:

[Scarface]

Yup, um...lol...

Because making that throw to the back end of the endzone, with the game on the line, can be done by EVERYONE.

That wasn't their 5th.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Yup, um...lol...

Because making that throw to the back end of the endzone, with the game on the line, can be done by EVERYONE.

That was #6.

[rcsodak]

He was 21-29, 275 yds, 2 TDs, 0 INTs, and had a QB rating of 124.9 against Denver in the AFC Championship game...

I guess I'm really not understanding the point here. :noidea:

We talking about AFCC games, now, or just picking games where he didn't suck ass? :tsk:

I believe we were talking of his not being "all that", as put by SAssassin.

But since you brought up a previous game, where he went up against NO DEFENSE......

2008:
I especially like his 15QBR vs Wash...his 38QBR vs NYG...his 50QBR vs PHI...his 59QBR vs IND....his 58QBR vs CLE.

Or his 17td's vs 15 int's....

Or his 14 fumbles, 7 lost

Yea...he's a GameBreaker! :coffee:

If he didn't have a team around him to bail his ass out, he'd prolly be getting traded to Detroit. :lol:


ps. At lease he's better than cut-n-run'er.

[nevcraw]

I will be very pleased with Sanchez at QB in Round 1 as long as they do not have to use both picks to get him.. If they do end up giving up both picks he better be the second coming of Montana and McDoogie bteer be the next Bill Walsh..
Give up a Franchise QB better replace him with another one..

[TXBRONC]

I will be very pleased with Sanchez at QB in Round 1 as long as they do not have to use both picks to get him.. If they do end up giving up both picks he better be the second coming of Montana and McDoogie bteer be the next Bill Walsh..
Give up a Franchise QB better replace him with another one..

I don't think Denver will even attempt to draft him, maybe if he falls to us at 12 but then I would guess our top defensive players for that pick are long gone.

[nevcraw]

Why do you want Sanchez so bad? Look at the success rat of QB's that havent graduated college. Not saying the degree means anything, just saying it avoids one hit wonders.

although you were not asking me i will chime in..

I want McD to not think he will find another Brady or Cassell even (although jury is still out on him) in the late rounds and waste 2-3 years in trying to prove he can..
If he really thinks Simms or Orton are winners he wont waste picks on QB's and that will be fine as well. But I doubt this is true, both are stop gap players..
Most of the experts believe Sanchez fits this new offense to a T. - that's what the team needs most.. a QB who fits the offense and can excell quickly and take some pressure off a total defensive reclomation project..

[slim]

I will be very pleased with Sanchez at QB in Round 1 as long as they do not have to use both picks to get him.. If they do end up giving up both picks he better be the second coming of Montana and McDoogie bteer be the next Bill Walsh..
Give up a Franchise QB better replace him with another one..

Define franchise QB

[nevcraw]

Define franchise QB

1. See opposite of Kyle Orton.
2. " " " Chris Simms.

[slim]

1. See opposite of Kyle Orton.
2. " " " Chris Simms.

:rolleyes:

You are so clever.

[nevcraw]

:rolleyes:

You are so clever.

Yes.

[Shazam!]

I have been one of McDaniels staunchest defenders, even with all the Cutler turmoil.

"Let's see what he does for our beloved team on-field before we slaughter him and want his head" is what I've said all along.

McQB can Draft a QB late and use his magic... no need to waste a first with a QB guru, right?

If Denver gets Sanchez I will hate him for wasting a 1st on a guy who, to me, has 'bust' tattoed on his forehead. Even worse would be trading up for him.

I hope the ploy theory is right, they brought him in to have other guys available and Sanchez gone. I will be seriously pissed.

[Poet]

I have been one of McDaniels staunchest defenders, even with all the Cutler turmoil.

"Let's see what he does on-field before we slaughter him" is what I've said all along.

McQB can Draft a QB late and use his magic.

But if Denver gets Sanchez I will hate him for wasting a 1st on a guy who, to me, has 'bust' tattoed on his forehead.

How can you say that you should wait to see how he does as a coach, then turn around and blast him for a pick that would take years to develop?

That is contradictory.

[Shazam!]

Sanchez is too risky. Defense is the #1 priority. It's very simple. He can use the 3rd or a later one for a QB.

[Poet]

Sanchez is too risky. Defense is the #1 priority. It's very simple. He can use the 3rd or a later one for a QB.

You have given him praise as far as QBS have gone. If the took a QB I would say that it would speak well of him.

I would go with Orton who is actually a decent player and fix the defense. But you can't really justify "Wait till he coaches" and then go "If he makes a move that would take some time to judge he is bad".

[Shazam!]

No need to spend a 1st on a QB when he can develop one from the later rounds. Defense has to be the priority. The thought of trading up for a QB nauseates me.

[JKcatch724]

Sanchez sucks. At least he will at the next level. Why he's getting all this love from the media blows my mind.

I'd say over half of all D1 QBs could've stepped into USC's situation and done equally as well, if not better.

[claymore]

I have been one of McDaniels staunchest defenders, even with all the Cutler turmoil.

"Let's see what he does for our beloved team on-field before we slaughter him and want his head" is what I've said all along.

McQB can Draft a QB late and use his magic... no need to waste a first with a QB guru, right?

If Denver gets Sanchez I will hate him for wasting a 1st on a guy who, to me, has 'bust' tattoed on his forehead. Even worse would be trading up for him.

I hope the ploy theory is right, they brought him in to have other guys available and Sanchez gone. I will be seriously pissed.


Sanchez is too risky. Defense is the #1 priority. It's very simple. He can use the 3rd or a later one for a QB.


No need to spend a 1st on a QB when he can develop one from the later rounds. Defense has to be the priority. The thought of trading up for a QB nauseates me.

Taking Sanchez is less risky than trading your 3rd year franchise QB for picks. Nothing this guy does can surprise me anymore. Im just strapped in for the ride.

[CoachChaz]

I personally like Sanchez, but agre there are more pressing needs. I'd be upset if they drafted him in the first as opposed to getting my boy McGee or someone else later on. But in all seriousness...I just dont see it happening.

[threefolddead]

Sanchez was on Sirius nfl radio yesterday and said he had no clue about this and it was news to him.

[MOtorboat]

Sanchez was on Sirius nfl radio yesterday and said he had no clue about this and it was news to him.

Really?

It's the top headline on nfl.com...they don't usually print untrue things there.

[claymore]

Really?

It's the top headline on nfl.com...they don't usually print untrue things there.

I heard Sanchez talking about it on NFL total access last night as well.

[MOtorboat]

I heard Sanchez talking about it on NFL total access last night as well.

Saying that he wasn't working out with Denver?

[claymore]

Saying that he wasn't working out with Denver?

That he was meeting with Denver today.

[Shazam!]

Taking Sanchez is less risky than trading your 3rd year franchise QB for picks...

When your 3rd year franchise QB doesn't want to be there anymore you have little choice.

[claymore]

When your 3rd year franchise QB doesn't want to be there anymore you have little choice.

He is gone now, and I am cool with that. But I do not blame Cutler alone for this mess.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

You know, I am not surprised that Sanchez seems totally befuddled by all this. From what I had read, (which are usually vague accounts of prospect visits, etc.) it seemed like Sanchez was due in Dove Valley today for his workout. However, I had read last night on NFL.com that the Broncos were expected to work him out in Los Angeles. So what is the exact scoop? Is he coming here to Denver for a private workout or are we going out there to work him out at USC? There is a good chance I'm wrong, but I was fairly certain that the deadline to bring prospects to team facilities was now over.

[TXBRONC]

No need to spend a 1st on a QB when he can develop one from the later rounds. Defense has to be the priority. The thought of trading up for a QB nauseates me.

That's huge assumption I wont make. There is nothing to guarantee that if McDaniels takes a mid round quarterback that he can develop the guy into the next Tom Brady. A quarterback drafted in the mid rounds is drated there for good reasons because they generally don't develop like Brady. Besides that Brady was already established as one the best quarterbacks in the League before McDaniels became the quarterbacks coach and he had at least one Super Bowl ring as well.

I know people like use Cassel as way support the argument McDaniels can take any mid round quarterback and develop them into something special but seems to be two thing people are looking past:

1.) Cassel had four years in the system before ever took a snap as the starter.

2.) He also had already great team built around him.

N.B. Even with that said I don't think McDaniels will draft a quarterback in the first round.

[Italianmobstr7]

I wouldn't be upset with drafting Sanchez. If we drafted him and be turned out to be our next franchise qb then I would be all for it, even if defense is our #1 priority.

[claymore]

You know, I am not surprised that Sanchez seems totally befuddled by all this. From what I had read, (which are usually vague accounts of prospect visits, etc.) it seemed like Sanchez was due in Dove Valley today for his workout. However, I had read last night on NFL.com that the Broncos were expected to work him out in Los Angeles. So what is the exact scoop? Is he coming here to Denver for a private workout or are we going out there to work him out at USC? There is a good chance I'm wrong, but I was fairly certain that the deadline to bring prospects to team facilities was now over.

The way I understood it was that he already came to Denver, you can only have a player visit once. But.... you can visit a player as much as you want. So it was a follow on thing. Which makes this worse.

[turftoad]

Just saw on sportscenter that Josh Mcfreekindaniels didn't even make the trip to LA because he had a freeking headache. :tsk:

Now, if you're supposed to be a QB guru and thinking about moving up in the draft to get your future QB, don't you take some tylenol or something so you can get a better look at the guy?

[turftoad]

The way I understood it was that he already came to Denver, you can only have a player visit once. But.... you can visit a player as much as you want. So it was a follow on thing. Which makes this worse.

I don't think he was here.

The reason the Broncos needed to go to LA is that prospects cannot GO for visits the week prior to the draft.

[Nomad]

I read somewhere the rules say, draftees can only workout in their hometown or at their university during the last week before the draft!!

Anyway, McDaniels isn't at the workout due to a migraine!

[CoachChaz]

Just saw on sportscenter that Josh Mcfreekindaniels didn't even make the trip to LA because he had a freeking headache. :tsk:

Now, if you're supposed to be a QB guru and thinking about moving up in the draft to get your future QB, don't you take some tylenol or something so you can get a better look at the guy?

jaded

[Nomad]

Just saw on sportscenter that Josh Mcfreekindaniels didn't even make the trip to LA because he had a freeking headache. :tsk:

Now, if you're supposed to be a QB guru and thinking about moving up in the draft to get your future QB, don't you take some tylenol or something so you can get a better look at the guy?

This means NO SANCHEZ!!!