Orton's experience outweighs Simms'

[Lonestar]

Former Bears QB ready to "thrive"
By Mike Klis
The Denver Post
Posted: 04/12/2009 12:30:00 AM MDT


Chris Simms guided Tampa Bay to a 6-2 record in the second half of the 2005 season before injuring his spleen.

The last time Kyle Orton and Chris Simms led their respective teams to the playoffs, so did Jake Plummer.

It was 2005, a season that in many ways was so long ago.

The difference between Orton and the other two is that he didn't get rewarded for his accomplishment. After posting a 10-5 record for the Chicago Bears as a rookie starter in 2005, he was replaced by Rex Grossman for the playoffs. Orton remained on the bench until he beat out Grossman for the job late in the 2007 season.

"I've been through a lot in four years, there's no question about it," said the newest Broncos quarterback. "Right now, I appreciate the past I had in Chicago, but I'm so excited for the future."

Strange how the Broncos' upcoming season circles back to 2005. It was the last good season for Plummer and, come to think of it, the last good season for the Broncos. The Broncos made it to the conference championship game, but in a series of fateful events, Plummer played just one more year, a season in which he was replaced by Jay Cutler.

Now, Cutler is gone, swapped for Orton and draft picks to Chicago, with Simms having arrived as a free agent expecting to back up Cutler. He's now battling Orton for the starting job.

"Chris has got a lot of things I value at quarterback," Broncos coach Josh McDaniels said. "One of the things I value is his ability to learn our system, his intelligence, his decision-making. All of those things to me are important before you start talking about his throwing abilities, which Chris obviously has too."

Simms guided Tampa Bay to a 6-2 record in the second half of the 2005 season, then saw a potential game-tying touchdown pass muffed late in a first-round playoff loss to Washington. He suffered an injury to his spleen in his third game the next season and has played little since. Still, McDaniels remembered enough of Simms' game to sign the blond southpaw to a two-year, $6 million contract even before knowing he would trade Cutler.

Kyle Orton was 9-6 with the Bears last season.

McDaniels said there will be open competition for the quarterback spot, as there will for all positions. But considering the status of cornerback Champ Bailey, safety Brian Dawkins and left tackle Ryan Clady, it's fair to surmise that proclamations of competitive fairness carry varying degrees of diplomacy.

Make no mistake, the quarterback job is Orton's to lose. The Broncos may be paying Simms more money, but it's been too long since he took a meaningful snap to believe he is viewed on par with Orton to take the first snap in the season-opening game.

And even if the Broncos were to select Southern California quarterback Mark Sanchez with the No. 12 pick in the draft, Orton would remain the odds-on favorite to start the season. After all, Orton not only won in 2005, he won as recently as last season, posting a 9-6 record with the Bears. And until he severely sprained his ankle in the eighth game of the season, there wasn't a quarterback in the league playing much better.

Check out this three-week stretch of statistics directly before his injury: 301.0 passing yards per game, five touchdown passes, no interceptions and a 106.2 rating. And that was while playing quarterback for defensive- minded head coach Lovie Smith.

"Not taking anything away from a defensive head coach," Orton said. "That's what they know, that's their passion, and that's what they're going to coach toward. I know we were safe a lot of times in Chicago. There were a lot of game situations

(Click image to enlarge)where we played it pretty safe and let our special teams and defense win it."
If Orton is struggling now, it's containing his enthusiasm at the prospect of playing for an offensive-minded coach such as McDaniels. The Broncos' system will ask its quarterback to throw oodles of high-percentage passes a game, mostly from the shotgun formation.

"Taking nothing away from my days in Chicago, but this is an offense that a quarterback can thrive in," Orton said. "Hopefully, I can take the next step in my career and become a top-level quarterback in this league."


http://www.denverpost.com/ci_12124652?source=rss

[Shazam!]

"And even if the Broncos were to select Southern California quarterback Mark Sanchez with the No. 12 pick in the draft..."

These words give me nightmares.

[Den21vsBal19]

"And even if the Broncos were to select Southern California quarterback Mark Sanchez with the No. 12 pick in the draft..."

These words give me nightmares.
Just makes the whole process of moving Cutler on pretty well pointless :tsk:

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Just makes the whole process of moving Cutler on pretty well pointless :tsk:

Not necessarily. Even if we use a first rounder on Sanchez (and I'm not voting FOR it to happen), we still got a future #1 and a #3 this year. No harm, no foul. Besides, Cutty was unhappy and would have gotten PAID in his next deal.

[honz]

Just makes the whole process of moving Cutler on pretty well pointless :tsk:

Not pointless at all. Cutler didn't want to be here. The move was pretty much necessary. Besides, we'd come out with a QB, an extra 1st, and an extra 3rd...so we'd still be coming out ahead assuming Sanchez turns out to be a good NFL QB. That said, with what we've heard about McD being high on Orton, I think we give Orton at least a year to prove himself before we think about going QB in round 1.

[Lonestar]

Not pointless at all. Cutler didn't want to be here. The move was pretty much necessary. Besides, we'd come out with a QB, an extra 1st, and an extra 3rd...so we'd still be coming out ahead assuming Sanchez turns out to be a good NFL QB. That said, with what we've heard about McD being high on Orton, I think we give Orton at least a year to prove himself before we think about going QB in round 1.

Again I will harp drafting QB's high is not in the NE play book have not done it once except for before Billy was there in taking bledso an eon ago.. Billy could not have dumped him fast enough once he had Brady groomed to take his spot..

A guy that started just one year of college ball after greasy left (or maybe it was the other way around) but was not thought highly of coming out of college.. NE took him late in the draft much like they did with Cassell.. this is something that Josh has not forgotten..

[EMB6903]

If any of you want to catch Orton play.... NFL replay at 4pm...

a pretty solid performance by Orton I thought.. esspecially in the 4th quarter.

[Ravage!!!]

NE hasn't done it lately because they haven't needed a QB. The last time they needed a QB was before Bledsoe, in which they spent a high round pick for. After that, it transitioned right into Brady.... why would NE use a high pick on a QB?

I personally don't believe that NE could possibly feel they can simply put any QB into the roster and make the most important position in sports into a stud starter. If they do, I think they are extremely mistaken.

That being said, I don't know if NE (or McDaniels) feels they can simply do with any 'average system' QB...unless they honestly feel that Brady is just some average system QB.... and I don't think they feel that way.

So McDaniels has to know how important Tom Brady is to their success....a TOP QB.... no matter when he was drafted.

[Hobe]

I agree that Orton is the #1 OB right now. It's his job to hold or lose. Simms was brought in as back up and is the #2. With Hackney gone they have to pick a #3 QB either late in the draft or free agent. The #3 is usually a development project, so I think it will be a draft pick. I just hope it is not a first row pick.

Orton was on a team that emphasized the defense at the expense of the offense. The Broncos are just the opposite, or at least were. Orton may shine here. I guess we just have to wait and see.

[Lonestar]

NE hasn't done it lately because they haven't needed a QB. The last time they needed a QB was before Bledsoe, in which they spent a high round pick for. After that, it transitioned right into Brady.... why would NE use a high pick on a QB?

I personally don't believe that NE could possibly feel they can simply put any QB into the roster and make the most important position in sports into a stud starter. If they do, I think they are extremely mistaken.

That being said, I don't know if NE (or McDaniels) feels they can simply do with any 'average system' QB...unless they honestly feel that Brady is just some average system QB.... and I don't think they feel that way.

So McDaniels has to know how important Tom Brady is to their success....a TOP QB.... no matter when he was drafted.

while I agree here they will take a QB this year they think will fill the bill.. But I'd think it will be another sleeper.. later in the draft his system guy smart, can read defenses and someone that preferably has played on a spread offense with a good arm.

that may mean someone on day one But I doubt it.. I also have no reason to NOT believe that Orton was the guy they wanted after it was apparent that jay was not coming back.. they had many other options for QB's and much higher draft choices to chose from...

I firmly believe that he will use Orton as his starter and draft a groom-able QB for the future once Orton demands huge contracts.. That has been their MO for as long as he was there.. I'll suspect he watched and sucked up all the franchise knowledge and gossip from his day one ..

Pat would not have taken him if he was not a sharp cookie..

[honz]

If any of you want to catch Orton play.... NFL replay at 4pm...

a pretty solid performance by Orton I thought.. esspecially in the 4th quarter.

I remember this game. One more reason why I hate the the pooch kick. :tsk:

[Ravage!!!]

while I agree here they will take a QB this year they think will fill the bill.. But I'd think it will be another sleeper.. later in the draft his system guy smart, can read defenses and someone that preferably has played on a spread offense with a good arm.

that may mean someone on day one But I doubt it.. I also have no reason to NOT believe that Orton was the guy they wanted after it was apparent that jay was not coming back.. they had many other options for QB's and much higher draft choices to chose from...

I firmly believe that he will use Orton as his starter and draft a groom-able QB for the future once Orton demands huge contracts.. That has been their MO for as long as he was there.. I'll suspect he watched and sucked up all the franchise knowledge and gossip from his day one ..

Pat would not have taken him if he was not a sharp cookie..

I can't disagree with anything.. here... but say that the MO for as long as he's been there has been that way because they HAD Brady. Wouldn't make sense to draft a better QB in the draft when you already have a Brady in the lineup.

So I guess it comes down to a couple things. One..being if McDaniels acknowledges that the success of their team came down to having a top QB, or if he believes it was 'his' system that was the dominating factor.

I think Orton WAS the best option at QB from the teams that were interested in Cutler. I don't really know if HE was the one they wanted, but either way. However, I'm curious to know if McDaniels would take Sanchez if he fell to 12 (and I don't think he falls to 12).

But I do agree that McD is set to use Orton/Simms as his starter this year IF another QB doesn't present itself (meaning if we don't have a chance for Sanchez).

I also wouldn't be shocked to see Simms beat out Orton for the starting job.

[EMB6903]

I remember this game. One more reason why I hate the the pooch kick. :tsk:

I agree... I hate when coaches get all conservative....

I cant stand the prevent D or the pooch kick... trust that your team is going to make a stop

[Lonestar]

I can't disagree with anything.. here... but say that the MO for as long as he's been there has been that way because they HAD Brady. Wouldn't make sense to draft a better QB in the draft when you already have a Brady in the lineup.

So I guess it comes down to a couple things. One..being if McDaniels acknowledges that the success of their team came down to having a top QB, or if he believes it was 'his' system that was the dominating factor.

I think Orton WAS the best option at QB from the teams that were interested in Cutler. I don't really know if HE was the one they wanted, but either way. However, I'm curious to know if McDaniels would take Sanchez if he fell to 12 (and I don't think he falls to 12).

But I do agree that McD is set to use Orton/Simms as his starter this year IF another QB doesn't present itself (meaning if we don't have a chance for Sanchez).

I also wouldn't be shocked to see Simms beat out Orton for the starting job.



your correct in thinking he was not around when Brady came on the scene but the legend still lives on in the halls of how it happened and then when they brought in Cassell pretty much the same way the story was repeated..

Just as every RB drafted by the broncos heard about TD, Gary, MA Poorti$$ although he was not a later rounder.. They all heard about this being a RB friendly environment..

Josh believes in the system and what NE did for player acquisitions we have followed their play book to a T so far..

[Lonestar]

I agree... I hate when coaches get all conservative....

I cant stand the prevent D or the pooch kick... trust that your team is going to make a stop


well none of had that trust the past couple of seasons, in fact for me since Robinson left..

[DenBronx]

I like Simms alot but I have no doubt that Orton will be our starter. I do think Simms will push Orton for the job but it will only make Orton want it more. You got to love having a quality #2 at QB though, something we havnt had in years!

[honz]

I like Simms alot but I have no doubt that Orton will be our starter. I do think Simms will push Orton for the job but it will only make Orton want it more. You got to love having a quality #2 at QB though, something we havnt had in years!

Even Patrick Ramsey agrees with your sentiments.

[LoyalSoldier]

Between Orton and Simms I would trust Orton since Orton has at least had one season where he wasn't a total failure. Simm's best season was when he was playing with the best defense in the NFL and even then he wasn't the most impressive.

[Lonestar]

Let me say that I just watched the CHI ATL game and was impressed with Kyle's game management.. threw the ball way when he needed to and .. it was a great two minute drill and the fourth quarter was pretty much no huddle for most of their poessions..made some really good throws to win the game and then have it ripped away with two plays in the 11 seconds left..

Considering how bad that OLINE was it is a miracle the forte got more than 35 yards all game..


After seeing the game I feel much better.. as he did not make dangerous throws hit the open man and IMHO had he had better "hands" receivers would have won that one going away.. While I did not see the final stats on it I do not think he had any turnovers..

anyone else have any comments on the game?

[getlynched47]

Let me say that I just watched the CHI ATL game and was impressed with Kyle's game management.. threw the ball way when he needed to and .. it was a great two minute drill and the fourth quarter was pretty much no huddle for most of their poessions..made some really good throws to win the game and then have it ripped away with two plays in the 11 seconds left..

Considering how bad that OLINE was it is a miracle the forte got more than 35 yards all game..


After seeing the game I feel much better.. as he did not make dangerous throws hit the open man and IMHO had he had better "hands" receivers would have won that one going away.. While I did not see the final stats on it I do not think he had any turnovers..

anyone else have any comments on the game?

I was very impressed with how he checks the ball down every chance he gets :lol:

[TXBRONC]

Not necessarily. Even if we use a first rounder on Sanchez (and I'm not voting FOR it to happen), we still got a future #1 and a #3 this year. No harm, no foul. Besides, Cutty was unhappy and would have gotten PAID in his next deal.

Absolutely, it wouldn't be pointless not by a long shot. I don't advocated it but it wouldn't make trading Jay pointless.

[getlynched47]

Absolutely, it wouldn't be pointless not by a long shot. I don't advocated it but it wouldn't make trading Jay pointless.

It would be pointless because Matt Stafford won't be there when we pick and Quarterbacks that come out their junior year fail like crazy.

[TXBRONC]

I like Simms alot but I have no doubt that Orton will be our starter. I do think Simms will push Orton for the job but it will only make Orton want it more. You got to love having a quality #2 at QB though, something we havnt had in years!

Simms holds a slight edge in having time with playbook but there is still plenty time for Orton to catch up with him.

[getlynched47]

Simms holds a slight edge in having time with playbook but there is still plenty time for Orton to catch up with him.

I hope Orton beats out Simms.

I would be devastated if the spleenless wonder was our starting QB :eek:

[Peerless]

We are going to have a QB controversy all season long... Just wait. One week one guy will suck, the comments will come from the media and the fans to start the other. The next he'll be fine, and then off.

With our brutal schedule, and a terrible defense, I'll bet that the QB will be an easy person to target, since the W/L record is ALL about the QB..... LOL

And the sad thing is, neither of these two are really "true" #1 starters...

[Dirk]

I never got a chance to see Simms play but I did get to see Orton play. I'm willing to give Orton the nod at the starting job. But...if McD gives him the starting job, commit to him! None of this Orton - Grossman - Orton Grossman type crap they did in Chicago. Commit to Orton until he works the kinks out. That's the only way he will be successful.

You can't switch up between Orton and Simms during the season and expect either one of them to have the "starting QB" confidence.

[claymore]

I have zero confidence in Simms. I cant believe we are paying him 3.4 mil a year.

[Dirk]

I have zero confidence in Simms. I cant believe we are paying him 3.4 mil a year.

I have to agree with you on this one. McD and Xman giving this guy that kind of money to be the back up to begin with is crazy. But with Simms not playing for so long just adds to the head scratcher... :confused:

[TXBRONC]

I never got a chance to see Simms play but I did get to see Orton play. I'm willing to give Orton the nod at the starting job. But...if McD gives him the starting job, commit to him! None of this Orton - Grossman - Orton Grossman type crap they did in Chicago. Commit to Orton until he works the kinks out. That's the only way he will be successful.

You can't switch up between Orton and Simms during the season and expect either one of them to have the "starting QB" confidence.

I would imagine that McDaniels will stick with one or the other unless they just totally ineffective.

[getlynched47]

I would imagine that McDaniels will stick with one or the other unless they just totally ineffective.

......and then it would be Darrell Hackney time!! :rockon:

He will still be a free agent if that time comes around :lol:

[turftoad]

Again I will harp drafting QB's high is not in the NE play book have not done it once except for before Billy was there in taking bledso an eon ago.. Billy could not have dumped him fast enough once he had Brady groomed to take his spot..

A guy that started just one year of college ball after greasy left (or maybe it was the other way around) but was not thought highly of coming out of college.. NE took him late in the draft much like they did with Cassell.. this is something that Josh has not forgotten..

There have been other late round QB's that have succeded in the past that have not played for the Pats. This isn't a first.
I'm sure that Crennell and Mangini never forgot either.


while I agree here they will take a QB this year they think will fill the bill.. But I'd think it will be another sleeper.. later in the draft his system guy smart, can read defenses and someone that preferably has played on a spread offense with a good arm.

that may mean someone on day one But I doubt it.. I also have no reason to NOT believe that Orton was the guy they wanted after it was apparent that jay was not coming back.. they had many other options for QB's and much higher draft choices to chose from...

I firmly believe that he will use Orton as his starter and draft a groom-able QB for the future once Orton demands huge contracts.. That has been their MO for as long as he was there.. I'll suspect he watched and sucked up all the franchise knowledge and gossip from his day one ..





I'm sure Mangini and Crennell sucked it all up too.


your correct in thinking he was not around when Brady came on the scene but the legend still lives on in the halls of how it happened and then when they brought in Cassell pretty much the same way the story was repeated..

Just as every RB drafted by the broncos heard about TD, Gary, MA Poorti$$ although he was not a later rounder.. They all heard about this being a RB friendly environment..

Josh believes in the system and what NE did for player acquisitions we have followed their play book to a T so far..
I suppose the Jets and the Browns thought the same thing when they brought in Mangini and Crennell.

Now, no, McD is not Mangini or Crennell. That said, McD is not Bill B. either.
And............ we are not the Patriots. I have a hard time understanding the fetish and making the comparison just because we brought in one of thier asst. coaches.

I do hope he can bring this team around however, I'm sceptical for many reasons already discussed in many other threads.

Part of the reason I'm sceptical is I think this is a sad state of affairs when we are talking about the experience of Orton and Simms.

It's sad to even think we are talking about either one of them being and fighting for the starting QB job for the Denver Broncos. :tsk:

If we win, I'll gladly eat some crow.

If we lose, I'll be looking for excuses of how bad the "D" is and how long it's going to take for the "D" to come along. I'll also be looking at the excuses about how tough our schedule is this year.

Pretty much the same arguments that has been used against Cutler and his record during his time in the Broncos era.

[TXBRONC]

There have been other late round QB's that have succeded in the past that have not played for the Pats. This isn't a first.
I'm sure that Crennell and Mangini never forgot either.



I'm sure Mangini and Crennell sucked it all up too.


I suppose the Jets and the Browns thought the same thing when they brought in Mangini and Crennell.

Now, no, McD is not Mangini or Crennell. That said, McD is not Bill B. either.
And............ we are not the Patriots. I have a hard time understanding the fetish and making the comparison just because we brought in one of thier asst. coaches.

I do hope he can bring this team around however, I'm sceptical for many reasons already discussed in many other threads.

Part of the reason I'm sceptical is I think this is a sad state of affairs when we are talking about the experience of Orton and Simms.

It's sad to even think we are talking about either one of them being and fighting for the starting QB job for the Denver Broncos. :tsk:

If we win, I'll gladly eat some crow.

If we lose, I'll be looking for excuses of how bad the "D" is and how long it's going to take for the "D" to come along. I'll also be looking at the excuses about how tough our schedule is this year.

Pretty much the same arguments that has been used against Cutler and his record during his time in the Broncos era.


Oh yeah this has already been telegraphed.

[turftoad]

Oh yeah this already been telegraphed.

Yeah, I know. The excuses are already starting to seep out and he hasn't even coached a game yet.

[TXBRONC]

Yeah, I know. The excuses are already starting to seep out and he hasn't even coached a game yet.

What think is crazy is thoughts of some that if end up having a horrific season with a losing record and end up drafting in the top ten next year that's a great thing. More times than not it means you're more than one or two players away from even making the playoffs.

[powderaddict]

I'm hoping 2009 will be a good year for the Broncos. I'm hoping they surprise and are competetive, and win enough to make the playoffs.

But come on people, you have to give McDaniels more than 1 offseason to turn around a defense that over the last 2 1/2 years has been not only one of the worst of that time period, but one of the worst EVER.

I'd like to see how Orton plays this year in this offense against stiff competition, and if he fails the Broncos will likely be able to draft a very good QB next year. The draft picks acquired via the trade will help the Broncos to repair the defense more quickly than otherwise possible.

If you guys haven't had a chance to read the series on McD's offense compared to the Broncos under Cutler on www.milehighreport.com, I'd strongly recommend it. It's a 3 part series that really breaks down the 2 teams. It's given me quite a bit of hope about the Broncos future with Orton as QB.

[powderaddict]

What think is crazy is thoughts of some that if end up having a horrific season with a losing record and end up drafting in the top ten next year that's a great thing. More times than not it means you're more than one or two players away from even making the playoffs.

Unless you're expecting just about every rookie drafted to have an immediate and huge impact, the Broncos could have a bad year this year and draft high, and be well along in rebuilding the defense.

Look at the Falcons, and Dolphins. Both teams drafted high, and turned things around the next year very quickly.

[turftoad]

Unless you're expecting just about every rookie drafted to have an immediate and huge impact, the Broncos could have a bad year this year and draft high, and be well along in rebuilding the defense.

Look at the Falcons, and Dolphins. Both teams drafted high, and turned things around the next year very quickly.

I'm sure it had to do with some decent FA's also. Not JUST draft picks.

[TXBRONC]

Unless you're expecting just about every rookie drafted to have an immediate and huge impact, the Broncos could have a bad year this year and draft high, and be well along in rebuilding the defense.

Look at the Falcons, and Dolphins. Both teams drafted high, and turned things around the next year very quickly.

We were 8-8 with a horrible defenes if we end up worse than that I don't think that bodes well for McDaniels. NB: I don't want him to fail.

True the Falcons and Dolphins turned it around quickly, but that isn't the norm.

[powderaddict]

I'm sure it had to do with some decent FA's also. Not JUST draft picks.

Of course. But you can't just load up with high priced FA, if you want long term success you must be able to draft well on both sides.

[broncofaninfla]

I'm taking a "may the best man win" attitude with Orton and Simms. I'm guessing Orton will start BUT also wouldn't be suprised to Simms get the nod.

[TXBRONC]

I'm sure it had to do with some decent FA's also. Not JUST draft picks.

Well for sure Falcons picked up Micheal Turner, so Ryan did have a solid running attack he could lean on.

[Lonestar]

Yeah, I know. The excuses are already starting to seep out and he hasn't even coached a game yet.


You will not get excuses from me.. when those reasons where not accepted by the Jake haters I saw not reason for them to be used by the jay lovers..

as far as being a few players away from a super bowl that was mikeys mantra year after, year after year, year after, year after year...

As far as being a being short on players actually as is stand right now for the long term future of this club I'd say it is 10 IF DJ is an answer at one of the LB spots.

Maybe less if Barrett, Woodyard and Larsen work out.. I have zero hopes that any one we have right now on the DL will be long term merely stop gap and no hopes for any of the others at LB or DB.. I see not super stars in any of them.. maybe they can fill a the journeyman jobs like many do in NE..

This is not an excuse merely how I see it.. 4 maybe players for the future I hope this extra draft choices are used solely on Defense the next two drafts..

As for you comment about other NE assistants being promoted.. Did any of them have an owner like Pat or fans like Denver's or a good solid base on one side of the LOS..

If memory serves correctly they were brought into total disasters.. not just a defense that was in total collapse..Nor did they hire proven coordinators to help them out. Like Josh has..

Now I know that many folks on here loved mikey, I was one that did not.

I know that many loved and thought that jaysus walked on water, I did not.

I know that many on here think that pat is a drunk and a fool, I do not....

I know that many here think that Josh is the devil incarnate.. I think he deserves a chance to prove he is not..

I know that many think we can't win without a franchise QB, I think if we find the right guy he may turn into one or at least good enough to win many Lombardi's down the line..

NE has a proven winning record built on building via the draft, and using role payers to build a TEAM that wins as a TEAM.. many on there hate that because frankly IMHO they are jealous of what that franchise has accomplished while ours was in a tail spin.. I look at this opportunity to follow a proven plan and become a winner again.. If that means being NE west, instead of Walsh (WCO) rocky mountain style so be it..

All winning programs come from somewhere they do it just pop out of the sky, Walsh was Paul Brown protégé who was someone Else's.. mikey learned under Walsh and fine tuned it with Alex Gibbs ZBS to become what we had.. and ZBS version of the WCO..

I see the spread formation that NE uses melded together with our ZBS roots and becoming something else..

I just hope that many of you will let go of the hate and get on board.. Looks to me like a interesting ride on a bumpy path for the next 2 or 3 years..