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Fan in Exile
04-09-2009, 11:51 AM
The Broncos are ranked fifth even after the loss of Cutler.

The other encouraging thing is that the Pats with Pioli were ranked dead last.

I would feel better about this if we hadn't gotten rid of the Goodmans.

http://www.forbes.com/2009/04/08/nfl-draft-teams-lifestyle-sports-nfl-draft.html?feed=rss_forbeslife_sport

bullis26
04-09-2009, 11:55 AM
fan in exile, i really hope your wish list comes nothing close to being true, we got enough RB's this offseason(regardless of how good they are) lets go defense defense defense

shank
04-09-2009, 11:58 AM
it's crazy that the pats are the 'symbol' of how to build a football team through the draft... when someone actually analyzed it they have the lowest retention rate in the league? wow.

although using retention rate to rank the teams drafts is skewed, it IS interesting anyway. it's much easier to retain players on a bad team, because even 7th rounders are often improvements!

CrazyHorse
04-09-2009, 12:10 PM
Haha the Patriots suck at Drafting. Pioli must suck at evaluating talent.
They have done really well at acquiring free agents though.

NameUsedBefore
04-09-2009, 12:18 PM
That's cause the Patriots build through veterans as I had said before. That's why this "Oh, we'll draft our way out of this hole" doesn't exactly come across as a great idea to me, plethora of 1st-round picks or not.

broncohead
04-09-2009, 12:20 PM
That's cause the Patriots build through veterans as I had said before. That's why this "Oh, we'll draft our way out of this hole" doesn't exactly come across as a great idea to me, plethora of 1st-round picks or not.

But you have to be a good team before players want to come over.

NameUsedBefore
04-09-2009, 12:22 PM
But you have to be a good team before players want to come over.

Aye. Which brings up this point: Does anyone think someone like Dawkins would have signed with the Broncos had he known Cutler would be gone and the team would go into rebuilding mode? It's an interesting question to ask, IMO.

Fan in Exile
04-09-2009, 12:44 PM
That's cause the Patriots build through veterans as I had said before. That's why this "Oh, we'll draft our way out of this hole" doesn't exactly come across as a great idea to me, plethora of 1st-round picks or not.

Of course if you look further in the article you'll see that the Colts and the Giants are also up there. Because drafting is one way to get good players, just not the only way.

What it comes down to is that drafting is a great idea, if it works. And free agents are a great idea if they work.

I also don't doubt that the Patriots would love to have had their draft picks work out if they could have because that's cheaper, but they go with free agents because they have too.

The real example the Colts and the Pats set is bring in guys who can fit your system. Which is a little encouraging bringing in Orton. Unless of course the example they set is have a franchise QB and then it doesn't matter what you do. But I'm going with the first one. :lol:

MOtorboat
04-09-2009, 12:45 PM
7 posts until Cutler was brought up.

Dawkins came over to help rebuild a defense, and he felt spurned in Philly by management. I think he hated to leave, but Denver put a good deal together.

I know, I know...speculation...but then again, Cutler was just one part of that offense.

I think Denver's 5th-ranked spot there was Shanahan's pig-headedness when trying to keep guys to prove that he drafted correctly...see cornerback and defensive line. He retained some guys who probably should have been cut, or traded, or packaged.

It's so hard to judge a talent-level, or a production value for each team from the draft. I've tried a few different ways by judging draft position and number of starts to come up with a value. It's hard. I don't think retention rate is the best way, though.

Tempus Fugit
04-09-2009, 12:49 PM
it's crazy that the pats are the 'symbol' of how to build a football team through the draft... when someone actually analyzed it they have the lowest retention rate in the league? wow.

although using retention rate to rank the teams drafts is skewed, it IS interesting anyway. it's much easier to retain players on a bad team, because even 7th rounders are often improvements!

The article is terrible. It makes fundamental mistakes about where players were drafted that any legitimate fact checker could have corrected, it ignores the difference between drafting for a good team and a bad team and it ignores where the picks were made from (7th round pick is not as likely to be around as a 1st round pick).

NameUsedBefore
04-09-2009, 12:54 PM
The article still accounts for players on the teams, not just those kept around. For instance, its criticism of the Patriots was laid upon two players that were still on the team but had failed to reach their potential.

BTW, the point of bringing up Cutler was a correlation with broncohead's post. As we can see, the Patriots have used free agency to get ahead and they've been so successful in getting players is due in part to having a system in place players want to join. They think there's a chance there to get themselves a ring. If someone like Dawkins knew the Broncos would essentially be QB-less, I don't think it's a stretch to say he might not have joined.

Nomad
04-09-2009, 12:57 PM
Aye. Which brings up this point: Does anyone think someone like Dawkins would have signed with the Broncos had he known Cutler would be gone and the team would go into rebuilding mode? It's an interesting question to ask, IMO.


Maybe he'll answer you truthfully:whoknows:, but here's a link to ask him!


http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=334&storyID=8940

Tempus Fugit
04-09-2009, 12:59 PM
The article still accounts for players on the teams, not just those kept around. For instance, its criticism of the Patriots was laid upon two players that were still on the team but had failed to reach their potential.

BTW, the point of bringing up Cutler was a correlation with broncohead's post. As we can see, the Patriots have used free agency to get ahead and they've been so successful in getting players is due in part to having a system in place players want to join. They think there's a chance there to get themselves a ring. If someone like Dawkins knew the Broncos would essentially be QB-less, I don't think it's a stretch to say he might not have joined.

Since the Patriots seem to be a focus here, note the following mistakes:

The article claimed the team got Moss and Welker via free agency. Both were gotten via trade.

The article claimed Kareem Brown was a 2nd round pick. Brown was a 4th round pick.

The article claimed Garrett Mills is a running back. Mills is a tight end.


That's just basic mistakes made on one team.

NameUsedBefore
04-09-2009, 01:03 PM
Maybe he'll answer you truthfully:whoknows:, but here's a link to ask him!


http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=334&storyID=8940

Ha, I doubt he'd answer that honestly. I know I wouldn't. "Yeah I totally wouldn't be here if I knew we'd be stuck with Kyle Orton. No insult to Kyle Orton, of course. I'm just sayin'."


Yeah seems like the article made some mistakes there. Point remains. Also, trading picks for veteran players is just another way of attaining veterans as far as I'm concerned. It says, Here, you can have our draft picks, we'll take the guys that are proven.

bullis26
04-09-2009, 01:07 PM
Since the Patriots seem to be a focus here, note the following mistakes:

The article claimed the team got Moss and Welker via free agency. Both were gotten via trade.

The article claimed Kareem Brown was a 2nd round pick. Brown was a 4th round pick.

The article claimed Garrett Mills is a running back. Mills is a tight end.


That's just basic mistakes made on one team.

good point plus there draft last year was pretty good

Jerod Mayo - Stud
Terrance Wheatly - hurt (will devolp into a nice player)
Wilhite - starter
they drafted a pretty good backup qb (cant think of his name, dont want to look it up)
Gary Gutton - special teams ace, and i think he'll eventually devolop into a nice player

The year before they didnt have a first round pick, they traded it to the 49ers

two years before that, they got Maroney, who is always hurt but if he was healthy who knows, maybe he wouldnt be so bad

Fan in Exile
04-09-2009, 01:14 PM
Ha, I doubt he'd answer that honestly. I know I wouldn't. "Yeah I totally wouldn't be here if I knew we'd be stuck with Kyle Orton. No insult to Kyle Orton, of course. I'm just sayin'."


Yeah seems like the article made some mistakes there. Point remains. Also, trading picks for veteran players is just another way of attaining veterans as far as I'm concerned. It says, Here, you can have our draft picks, we'll take the guys that are proven.

With the Patriots a lot of it is about getting value, and poor drafting. They didn't hold on to Branch whom they drafted, Bethel Johnson didn't pan out, neither did Chad Jackson. They clearly believe in drafting WR's they've just been kind of bad at it.

What I'm trying to say is that it's a mistake to think they're taking the Daniel Snyder view of draft picks, we should recognize that they got themselves into a bad position and had to trade to get out of it.

bullis26
04-09-2009, 01:15 PM
With the Patriots a lot of it is about getting value, and poor drafting. They didn't hold on to Branch whom they drafted, Bethel Johnson didn't pan out, neither did Chad Jackson. They clearly believe in drafting WR's they've just been kind of bad at it.

What I'm trying to say is that it's a mistake to think they're taking the Daniel Snyder view of draft picks, we should recognize that they got themselves into a bad position and had to trade to get out of it.

but the difference between the redskins and the patriots is that patriots are actually good

Fan in Exile
04-09-2009, 01:33 PM
but the difference between the redskins and the patriots is that patriots are actually good

Thank you I would have never known that if you hadn't said something.

Tempus Fugit
04-09-2009, 01:44 PM
With the Patriots a lot of it is about getting value, and poor drafting. They didn't hold on to Branch whom they drafted, Bethel Johnson didn't pan out, neither did Chad Jackson. They clearly believe in drafting WR's they've just been kind of bad at it.

What I'm trying to say is that it's a mistake to think they're taking the Daniel Snyder view of draft picks, we should recognize that they got themselves into a bad position and had to trade to get out of it.

1st round picks:

2008 - Jerod Mayo
2007 - Brandon Meriweather
2006 - Laurence Maroney

2nd round picks:

2008 - Terrence Wheatley
2007 - None
2006 - Chad Jackson

3rd round picks:

2008 - Shawn Crable, Kevin O'Connell
2007 - None
2006 - David Thomas

4th round picks:

2008 - Jonathan Wilhite
2007 - Kareem Brown
2006 - Garrett Mills, Stephen Gostkowski

I'll stop here in the interest of my sanity. Now, take a look at that group and you'll find only 3 of them aren't still with the team: Jackson, Mills and Brown.

Jackson is currently in Denver, Mills is in Minnesota and Brown is with the Jets. Every single draft pick taken in round 4 or higher is still in the NFL.

Furthermore, some other notes:

1.) Gostkowski is an All-Pro kicker
2.) Mayo was just the defensive rookie of the year.
3.) Mayo, Maroney and Meriweather, Wheatley and Wilhite have all seen time as starters
4.) The team didn't have either a 2nd or 3rd round pick in 2007 due to trades
5.) Thomas is the team's #2 tight end as of this moment.
6.) Crable ended up on the IR as a rookie.
7.) O'Connell ended the season as the team's #2 QB


Another misleading aspect about the article is that the Patriots have had so many lower round picks in the past 3 seasons. They've had 17 picks in the 4th round or later, compared to only 8 picks in the first 3 rounds (due to trades and losing a first rounder via the commissioner). Therefore, weighting a 7th round pick as equal to a first round pick is naturally going to skew the results under such circumstances.

bullis26
04-09-2009, 01:48 PM
1st round picks:

2008 - Jerod Mayo
2007 - Brandon Meriweather
2006 - Laurence Maroney

2nd round picks:

2008 - Terrence Wheatley
2007 - None
2006 - Chad Jackson

3rd round picks:

2008 - Shawn Crable, Kevin O'Connell
2007 - None
2006 - David Thomas

4th round picks:

2008 - Jonathan Wilhite
2007 - Kareem Brown
2006 - Garrett Mills, Stephen Gostkowski

I'll stop here in the interest of my sanity. Now, take a look at that group and you'll find only 3 of them aren't still with the team: Jackson, Mills and Brown.

Jackson is currently in Denver, Mills is in Minnesota and Brown is with the Jets. Every single draft pick taken in round 4 or higher is still in the NFL.

Furthermore, some other notes:

1.) Gostkowski is an All-Pro kicker
2.) Mayo was just the defensive rookie of the year.
3.) Mayo, Maroney and Meriweather, Wheatley and Wilhite have all seen time as starters
4.) The team didn't have either a 2nd or 3rd round pick in 2007 due to trades
5.) Thomas is the team's #2 tight end as of this moment.
6.) Crable ended up on the IR as a rookie.
7.) O'Connell ended the season as the team's #2 QB


Another misleading aspect about the article is that the Patriots have had so many lower round picks in the past 3 seasons. They've had 17 picks in the 4th round or later, compared to only 8 picks in the first 3 rounds (due to trades and losing a first rounder via the commissioner). Therefore, weighting a 7th round pick as equal to a first round pick is naturally going to skew the results under such circumstances.

good research but theres only two things i'd add

Gury Guttom he'll be a stud.....and number 6.) shouldve added terrence wheatly on there as well great research though:beer::salute:

Fan in Exile
04-09-2009, 01:49 PM
1st round picks:

2008 - Jerod Mayo
2007 - Brandon Meriweather
2006 - Laurence Maroney

2nd round picks:

2008 - Terrence Wheatley
2007 - None
2006 - Chad Jackson

3rd round picks:

2008 - Shawn Crable, Kevin O'Connell
2007 - None
2006 - David Thomas

4th round picks:

2008 - Jonathan Wilhite
2007 - Kareem Brown
2006 - Garrett Mills, Stephen Gostkowski

I'll stop here in the interest of my sanity. Now, take a look at that group and you'll find only 3 of them aren't still with the team: Jackson, Mills and Brown.

Jackson is currently in Denver, Mills is in Minnesota and Brown is with the Jets. Every single draft pick taken in round 4 or higher is still in the NFL.

Furthermore, some other notes:

1.) Gostkowski is an All-Pro kicker
2.) Mayo was just the defensive rookie of the year.
3.) Mayo, Maroney and Meriweather, Wheatley and Wilhite have all seen time as starters
4.) The team didn't have either a 2nd or 3rd round pick in 2007 due to trades
5.) Thomas is the team's #2 tight end as of this moment.
6.) Crable ended up on the IR as a rookie.
7.) O'Connell ended the season as the team's #2 QB


Another misleading aspect about the article is that the Patriots have had so many lower round picks in the past 3 seasons. They've had 17 picks in the 4th round or later, compared to only 8 picks in the first 3 rounds (due to trades and losing a first rounder via the commissioner). Therefore, weighting a 7th round pick as equal to a first round pick is naturally going to skew the results under such circumstances.

I'm not sure why you quoted my post for this. Do you think they succeeded at the WR position? Or were you trying to back me up when I said they don't treat their picks the way Snyder did?

If you're trying to address the article itself then the big problem that you have is one of comparison. You can't just say look at these good picks I think the Pats are good, you also have to consider how all of the other teams did.

Take your point about late round picks, how many do teams normally have? What percentage of those normally stick around?

Lonestar
04-09-2009, 01:55 PM
Aye. Which brings up this point: Does anyone think someone like Dawkins would have signed with the Broncos had he known Cutler would be gone and the team would go into rebuilding mode? It's an interesting question to ask, IMO.

do you honestly feel the only reason he came to DEN was cutler?

AHAHAHAHAHAH-AHA

If he has any brains whatsoever all he needed to do was see the complete rebuild on Defense was going on.. He was brought in for his leadership skill more so than any other reason and I suspect he knew this was not going to be a playoff team when he signed on the dotted line..

Tempus Fugit
04-09-2009, 02:01 PM
good research but theres only two things i'd add

Gury Guttom he'll be a stud.....and number 6.) shouldve added terrence wheatly on there as well great research though:beer::salute:

Guyton was undrafted and Wheatley is listed as the second rounder in 2008.

Lonestar
04-09-2009, 02:02 PM
let me add if anyone really is judging a draft using a WR as a yardstick then they are beyond dumb.. Especially inside a 3 year window.. almost NO WR make it in the NFL fewer inside the first 2-3 years are worth a crap..

You can count on one hand the number of decent to good WR that do anything as a rookie each year.. and few more in year two and year three is where most of them get a clue..

Must be the genetics of them or something..:laugh:

Fan in Exile
04-09-2009, 02:20 PM
let me add if anyone really is judging a draft using a WR as a yardstick then they are beyond dumb.. Especially inside a 3 year window.. almost NO WR make it in the NFL fewer inside the first 2-3 years are worth a crap..

You can count on one hand the number of decent to good WR that do anything as a rookie each year.. and few more in year two and year three is where most of them get a clue..

Must be the genetics of them or something..:laugh:

No one is using WR's to judge a draft. It is however a position that the Patriots have failed on, and so have had to address in other ways.

Broncolingus
04-09-2009, 03:03 PM
I think the Bronco's for the past 10-15 years have drafted better than not on the offensive side of the ball, but VERY poorly on the defensive side of the ball...

...the mid-late 90s were a great mix of excellent FA pickups (Zim, Stink, etc.) and good drafting (Nalen, Davis, etc.).

I just wish they could break the code on the defensive side of the ball...

Lonestar
04-09-2009, 03:17 PM
No one is using WR's to judge a draft. It is however a position that the Patriots have failed on, and so have had to address in other ways.

but if they are using that data to judge good to bad drafts then that stat should probably be thrown out.. everyone has failed at WR..

I was saying that most WR's are not worth the paper to wipe their asses with till year three and if it was a THREE year study it is skewed against anyone that drafted a WR ..

Although almost no one but ARIZ has had luck with rookie WR's..

Lonestar
04-09-2009, 03:30 PM
I think the Bronco's for the past 10-15 years have drafted better than not on the offensive side of the ball, but VERY poorly on the defensive side of the ball...

...the mid-late 90s were a great mix of excellent FA pickups (Zim, Stink, etc.) and good drafting (Nalen, Davis, etc.).

I just wish they could break the code on the defensive side of the ball...


on day one when you should be getting if not immediate starters at least eventual starters the broncos over all have sucked on both sides of the LOS.. Excepting LB.. for arguments sake lets talk choices 1-3 as they are almost always top 100 picks..

1996 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 15 John Mobley OLB Kutztown
2 44 Tory James DB Louisiana State
3 65 Detron Smith RB Texas A&M
3 78 Mark Campbell DT Florida

1997 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 28 Trevor Pryce DT Clemson
3 67 Dan Neil G Texas

1998 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 30 Marcus Nash WR Tennessee
2 61 Eric Brown SS Mississippi State
3 91 Brian Griese QB Michigan

1999 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 31 Al Wilson MLB Tennessee
2 58 Montae Reagor DE Texas Tech
2 61 Lennie Friedman C Duke
3 67 Chris Watson CB Eastern Illinois
3 93 Travis McGriff WR Florida

2000 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 15 Deltha O'Neal CB California
2 40 Ian Gold LB Michigan
2 45 Kenoy Kennedy SAF Arkansas
3 70 Chris Cole WR Texas A&M

2001 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 24 Willie Middlebrooks CB Minnesota
2 51 Paul Toviessi DE Marshall
3 87 Reggie Hayward DE Iowa State

2002 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 19 Ashley Lelie WR Hawaii
2 51 Clinton Portis RB Miami (Fla.)
3 96 Dorsett Davis DT Mississippi State


2003 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 20 George Foster T Georgia
2 51 Terry Pierce LB Kansas State

2004 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 17 D.J. Williams OLB Miami (Fla.)
2 41 Tatum Bell RB Oklahoma State
2 54 Darius Watts WR Marshall
3 85 Jeremy LeSueur CB Michigan

2005 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
2 56 Darrent Williams CB Oklahoma State
3 76 Karl Paymah DB Washington State
3 97 Domonique Foxworth CB Maryland
3 101 Maurice Clarett -- Ohio State

2006 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 11 Jay Cutler QB Vanderbilt
2 61 Tony Scheffler TE Western Michigan

2007 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 17 Jarvis Moss DE Florida
2 56 Tim Crowder DE Texas
3 70 Ryan Harris OT Notre Dame

2008 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 12 Ryan Clady T Boise State
2 42 Eddie Royal WR Virginia Tech


Other than 2006 & 2008

not many keepers in that group.. outside of 1 RB, 3 LB and 1 DE

we did get lucky drafting OLINE types on day two but at that time no one wanted small fast OLINE players and we also had some stellar RB's that played well HERE in DEN.. other than poorti$$$ in the second none of those that left Den were real starters elsewhere..

So now that you really look at the list do you still think we did well?

Broncolingus
04-09-2009, 03:36 PM
Agreed, I should probably say that more clearly, Jr...

I think generally Denver's done better drafting and retaining players on the offensive side of the ball than the defensive side of the ball...

Heyward and the like are good examples of solid DL that Denver hasn't been able to keep...Pryce too - maybe?

LBs, though, looks like better than I thought - Mobley, Wilson, etc...

Again, dude, JMO...

Lonestar
04-09-2009, 03:48 PM
Agreed, I should probably say that more clearly, Jr...

I think generally Denver's done better drafting and retaining players on the offensive side of the ball than the defensive side of the ball...

Heyward and the like are good examples of solid DL that Denver hasn't been able to keep...Pryce too - maybe?

LBs, though, looks like better than I thought - Mobley, Wilson, etc...

Again, dude, JMO...


if mikey would have had his head out of his ass Hayward and the other guy would have been re signed prior to them hitting FA..

Price was signed to such a fat contract he had to go he was going to cost almost 9 million against the cap that year.. wound up signing for a shade over million.. he called mikeys bluff and lost 8 million.. or closer to 1 mill as rumor
had it they wanted him to go from 9 to 2 for the year..

We also had Regeaor who went on to play in both INDY and BUF IIRC and the only reason he did not play here was because we had a couple of old farts on their last legs in front of him.. had he played more after he left so did the old farts and we had ZIP..

Do not forget about Gold although I did not think much of him, he did well till his knee blew out.

It was not just about DAFTING clowns it was about resigning the good ones (to good not obscene contracts) and purging the clowns sooner..

BUT the list of clowns on day one was long and VERY undistinguished..

Broncolingus
04-09-2009, 03:53 PM
if mikey would have had his head out of his ass Hayward and the other guy would have been re signed prior to them hitting FA..

Price was signed to such a fat contract he had to go he was going to cost almost 9 million against the cap that year.. wound up signing for a shade over million.. he called mikeys bluff and lost 8 million.. or closer to 1 mill as rumor
had it they wanted him to go from 9 to 2 for the year..

We also had Regeaor who went on to play in both INDY and BUF IIRC and the only reason he did not play here was because we had a couple of old farts on their last legs in front of him.. had he played more after he left so did the old farts and we had ZIP..

Do not forget about Gold although I did not think much of him, he did well till his knee blew out.

It was not just about DAFTING clowns it was about resigning the good ones (to good not obscene contracts) and purging the clowns sooner..

BUT the list of clowns on day one was long and VERY undistinguished..

Agreed...retaining the few good ones Denver's wound up with on the defensive side of the ball - as a rule anyway - has been problematic.

topscribe
04-09-2009, 04:01 PM
The article is terrible. It makes fundamental mistakes about where players were drafted that any legitimate fact checker could have corrected, it ignores the difference between drafting for a good team and a bad team and it ignores where the picks were made from (7th round pick is not as likely to be around as a 1st round pick).

Yes, the article is terrible. A lot of factors were ignored. That's typical, though.

What gets me is Cutler was supposed to take away from that draft. WHAT? A
player who is traded going into the fourth year takes away from that draft?--
Let alone that he brought two (2) first-rounders, a third, and a starter in
return? I thought drafts were supposed to be about those who were busts and
those who were not.

Maybe Dawkins' defection away from the Eagles ought to take away from the
draft of his year.

But then, this is the year of the unbelievable . . . :coffee:

-----

FanInAZ
04-09-2009, 04:21 PM
Since the Patriots seem to be a focus here, note the following mistakes:

The article claimed the team got Moss and Welker via free agency. Both were gotten via trade.

The article claimed Kareem Brown was a 2nd round pick. Brown was a 4th round pick.

The article claimed Garrett Mills is a running back. Mills is a tight end.


That's just basic mistakes made on one team.

Don't state facts until you have done your homework! I've slip up from time to time as far as doing my homework prior to posting, but this many mistakes is simple unexceptable.

Cugel
04-09-2009, 11:23 PM
it's crazy that the pats are the 'symbol' of how to build a football team through the draft... when someone actually analyzed it they have the lowest retention rate in the league? wow.

although using retention rate to rank the teams drafts is skewed, it IS interesting anyway. it's much easier to retain players on a bad team, because even 7th rounders are often improvements!

The Patriots have not only drafted at the bottom of the draft the last 3 years their roster has been almost entirely set! They didn't have room for a lot of rookies in recent years.

Still they found a way to get some elite players like LB Jerod Meyo, the NFL Defensive Rookie of the Year.

Criticizing them is like laughing at the Chargers if they "only" got Shawne Merriman! (Actually they also got Luis Castillo and Vincent Jackson in that draft, but if they'd "only" gotten Merriman, would that have been a "failed" draft?)

In short, that article talks only about QUANTITY! And it ignores QUALITY!

Denver probably does a bit better on quality, but ONLY on offense.

Their DEFENSIVE players over that span?

Outside Elvis Dumervil, it's been:

2007:

Jarvis Moss (traded up for him!)
Tim Crowder
Marcus Thomas

2008:

Jack Williams
Carlton Powell
Josh Barrett

Not exactly an impressive lineup even granting the somewhat dubious benefit of the doubt to the class of 2008. :coffee:

This failure to draft decent defensive talent in time cost Shanahan his job. He really should have been drafting a lot of good defensive players in 04 and 05. Outside of Chris Meyers the 05 class is a total bust.

red98
04-09-2009, 11:45 PM
That's cause the Patriots build through veterans as I had said before. That's why this "Oh, we'll draft our way out of this hole" doesn't exactly come across as a great idea to me, plethora of 1st-round picks or not.

Take another look at the Pat's roster. Almost all their OL and DL as well as half the d backers were drafted by them.

It's straight out of the Parcell's book. Draft the lines and pass rushers and fill
in the rest.

red98
04-09-2009, 11:49 PM
1st round picks:

2008 - Jerod Mayo
2007 - Brandon Meriweather
2006 - Laurence Maroney

2nd round picks:

2008 - Terrence Wheatley
2007 - None
2006 - Chad Jackson

3rd round picks:

2008 - Shawn Crable, Kevin O'Connell
2007 - None
2006 - David Thomas

4th round picks:

2008 - Jonathan Wilhite
2007 - Kareem Brown
2006 - Garrett Mills, Stephen Gostkowski

I'll stop here in the interest of my sanity. Now, take a look at that group and you'll find only 3 of them aren't still with the team: Jackson, Mills and Brown.

Jackson is currently in Denver, Mills is in Minnesota and Brown is with the Jets. Every single draft pick taken in round 4 or higher is still in the NFL.

Furthermore, some other notes:

1.) Gostkowski is an All-Pro kicker
2.) Mayo was just the defensive rookie of the year.
3.) Mayo, Maroney and Meriweather, Wheatley and Wilhite have all seen time as starters
4.) The team didn't have either a 2nd or 3rd round pick in 2007 due to trades
5.) Thomas is the team's #2 tight end as of this moment.
6.) Crable ended up on the IR as a rookie.
7.) O'Connell ended the season as the team's #2 QB


Another misleading aspect about the article is that the Patriots have had so many lower round picks in the past 3 seasons. They've had 17 picks in the 4th round or later, compared to only 8 picks in the first 3 rounds (due to trades and losing a first rounder via the commissioner). Therefore, weighting a 7th round pick as equal to a first round pick is naturally going to skew the results under such circumstances.

Excellent use of stats again dude.

Stats don't tell the whole story though, not in the NFL.

Still the Pat's are one year and a few minutes removed from a SB win.

red98
04-09-2009, 11:55 PM
do you honestly feel the only reason he came to DEN was cutler?

AHAHAHAHAHAH-AHA

If he has any brains whatsoever all he needed to do was see the complete rebuild on Defense was going on.. He was brought in for his leadership skill more so than any other reason and I suspect he knew this was not going to be a playoff team when he signed on the dotted line..


Either way Dawkins is like Champ, they believe they can get
the D to win it all as long as the O doesn't give it away.

He's just that kind of playa.

Still, it was reported that McKid told him and others that the
Broncos are in a win now situation, no rebuild.

red98
04-10-2009, 12:22 AM
let me add if anyone really is judging a draft using a WR as a yardstick then they are beyond dumb.. Especially inside a 3 year window.. almost NO WR make it in the NFL fewer inside the first 2-3 years are worth a crap..

You can count on one hand the number of decent to good WR that do anything as a rookie each year.. and few more in year two and year three is where most of them get a clue..

Must be the genetics of them or something..:laugh:

Usually true, but Eddie Royal!

atwater27
04-10-2009, 01:15 AM
7 posts until Cutler was brought up.

.
Should have been the second. See what hatred can do to cloud judgement.

CrazyHorse
04-10-2009, 10:23 AM
In all seriousness though I hope Pioli was responsible for the Patriots poor drafting.
That way he can help us by drafting poorly for KC!

GEM
04-10-2009, 01:00 PM
That's cause the Patriots build through veterans as I had said before. That's why this "Oh, we'll draft our way out of this hole" doesn't exactly come across as a great idea to me, plethora of 1st-round picks or not.

At the same time, the Broncos have proven that you can't just pick your FA way up to the top either....oh wait, it depends on the skills of said FA's. :D

Lonestar
04-10-2009, 03:18 PM
That's cause the Patriots build through veterans as I had said before. That's why this "Oh, we'll draft our way out of this hole" doesn't exactly come across as a great idea to me, plethora of 1st-round picks or not.


right now they show 27 draft choices on their roster..

starter
second string/backup
third stringer

12 Tom Brady QB 6-4 225 8/3/1977 10 Michigan San Mateo, Calif. D6b-00 (199th overall)

54 Tedy Bruschi LB 6-1 247 6/9/1973 14 Arizona Roseville, Calif. D3-96 (86th overall)

98 Shawn Crable LB 6-5 243 12/26/1984 2 Michigan Massillon, Ohio D3-08 (78th overall)

33 Kevin Faulk RB 5-8 212 6/5/1976 11 Louisiana State Carencro, La. D2-99 (46th overall)

3 Stephen Gostkowski K 6-1 210 1/28/1984 4 Memphis Madison, Miss. D4-06 (118th Overall)

97 Jarvis Green DL 6-3 285 1/12/1979 8 Louisiana State Donaldsonville, La. D4b-02 (126th overall)

27 Ellis Hobbs III CB 5-9 195 5/16/1983 5 Iowa State DeSoto, Texas D3a-05 (84th overall)

77 Nick Kaczur T 6-4 315 7/28/1979 5 Toledo Brantford, Ontario, Canada D3b-05 (100th overall)

67 Dan Koppen C 6-2 296 9/12/1979 7 Boston College Whitehall, Pa. D5-03(164th overall)

72 Matt Light T 6-4 305 6/23/1978 9 Purdue Greenville, Ohio D2-01 (48th overall)

70 Logan Mankins G 6-4 310 3/10/1982 5 Fresno State Catheys Valley, Calif. D1-05 (32nd overall)

39 Laurence Maroney RB 5-11 220 2/5/1985 4 Minnesota St. Louis, Mo. D1-06(21st Overall)

51 Jerod Mayo LB 6-1 242 2/23/1986 2 Tennessee Hampton, Va. D1-08 (10th overall)

31 Brandon Meriweather S 5-11 200 1/14/1984 3 Miami (Fla.) Apopka, Fla. D1-07(24th Overall)

68 Ryan O'Callaghan T 6-7 330 7/19/1983 4 California Redding, Calif. D5-06(136th overall)

5 Kevin O'Connell QB 6-5 225 5/25/1985 2 San Diego State Carlsbad, CA D3-08 (94th overall)

35 Mike Richardson CB 5-11 190 2/18/1984 3 Notre Dame Warner Robins, Ga. D6b-07(202nd overall)

91 Bo Ruud LB 6-3 235 9/2/1984 2 Nebraska Lincoln, Neb. D6-08 (197th overall)

36 James Sanders S 5-10 210 11/11/1983 5 Fresno State Porterville, Calif. D4-05 (133rd overall)

93 Richard Seymour DL 6-6 310 10/6/1979 9 Georgia Gadsden, S.C. D1-01 (6th overall)

18 Matthew Slater WR 6-0 198 9/9/1985 2 UCLA Anaheim, Calif. D5-08 (153rd overall)

90 Le Kevin Smith DL 6-3 308 7/21/1982 4 Nebraska Macon, Ga. D6-06(206th Overall)

86 David Thomas TE 6-3 248 7/5/1983 4 Texas Wolfforth, Texas D3-06(86th overall)

94 Ty Warren DL 6-5 300 2/6/1981 7 Texas A&M Bryan, Texas D1-03 (13th overall)

84 Benjamin Watson TE 6-3 255 12/18/1980 6 Georgia Rock Hill, S.C. D1-04 (32nd overall)

22 Terrence Wheatley CB 5-9 183 5/5/1985 2 Colorado Plano, Texas D2-08 (62nd overall)

75 Vince Wilfork DL 6-2 325 11/4/1981 6 Miami (Fla.) Boynton Beach, Fla. D1-04 (21st overall)

24 Jonathan Wilhite CB 5-11 185 2/23/1984 2 Auburn Monroe, La. D4-08 (129th overall)


As you can see what they draft is what they use.. almost all of them are starters 18 of them are quality starters and only 3 of them are third stringers.. the rest are backups waiting to step in in case someone goes down..

Does any one on here believe before the 2006 draft we could say anything remotely close to this..

I'll take the NE way any day of the week to the abortion of player acquisition we had..

http://www.patriots.com/depthchart.cfm

http://www.patriots.com/team/index.cfm?ac=Rosters&Print=yes

DenBronx
04-10-2009, 03:28 PM
leting go of the goodmans has me feeling pretty leary though. they seemed to be finally turning things around. i think we should have at least kept them on board for one more year.

and why did pat give goodman a raise after the season was over then fire him? doesnt make sense. did they butt heads on something?

Lonestar
04-10-2009, 04:11 PM
leting go of the goodmans has me feeling pretty leary though. they seemed to be finally turning things around. i think we should have at least kept them on board for one more year.

and why did pat give goodman a raise after the season was over then fire him? doesnt make sense. did they butt heads on something?

from what I understood Pat liked them and wanted them to stay..

the younger Goodman could not get along with Josh and the turf war began.. not sure what it was but there was an issue.. It was reported once upon a time whether that was true or not who knows for sure.. I would guess if it were something they could hang Josh on the Goodman's would have tried..


Pat wanted Josh more and took care of the problem..

DenBronx
04-10-2009, 04:18 PM
from what I understood Pat liked them and wanted them to stay..

the younger Goodman could not get along with Josh and the turf war began.. not sure what it was but there was an issue.. It was reported once upon a time whether that was true or not who knows for sure.. I would guess if it were something they could hang Josh on the Goodman's would have tried..


Pat wanted Josh more and took care of the problem..

i bet anything that josh proposed his early idea of dealing cutler and thats where the war began. im still not sure why pat would let a gm that was going in the right direction take the fall though? mcd is a rookie hc and still has to prove himself. i do see why its important to be on the same page though in going after free agents, drafting, schemes and personel. its possible goodman had too many old shanahan ideas and thats what mcd wanted to avoid....especially player wise.

Lonestar
04-10-2009, 06:58 PM
i bet anything that josh proposed his early idea of dealing cutler and thats where the war began. im still not sure why pat would let a gm that was going in the right direction take the fall though? mcd is a rookie hc and still has to prove himself. i do see why its important to be on the same page though in going after free agents, drafting, schemes and personel. its possible goodman had too many old shanahan ideas and thats what mcd wanted to avoid....especially player wise.

I have seen nothing that implicates Josh thinking of moving jay that early on..

Perhaps someone else has what I read was Jr Goodman was feeling his oats and pissed of Josh one two many times..

I do not think that Pat was so invested in the goodmans like he was with his HC.. rookie or not he likes Josh more..

DenBronx
04-12-2009, 04:24 PM
I have seen nothing that implicates Josh thinking of moving jay that early on..

Perhaps someone else has what I read was Jr Goodman was feeling his oats and pissed of Josh one two many times..

I do not think that Pat was so invested in the goodmans like he was with his HC.. rookie or not he likes Josh more..


for now.

mcd better win and fast. like many have said, "the honeymoon is over" he better produce right off the get go after making some of the choices he has made. 2009 and 2010 are going to be criticle drafts for us to build this franchise. if were going to be anything we have to get those drafts right!

as a fan i want to see us win....hope he can do it.

Lonestar
04-12-2009, 04:34 PM
for now.

mcd better win and fast. like many have said, "the honeymoon is over" he better produce right off the get go after making some of the choices he has made. 2009 and 2010 are going to be criticle drafts for us to build this franchise. if were going to be anything we have to get those drafts right!

as a fan i want to see us win....hope he can do it.

I think your correct here getting top notch choices that are either starting late in the year or pushing the starters are critical in rounds 1-3 which mean 5 picks IIRC..

Now where he wins or not as long as we see the team show up at each game and give it their best shot, as long as we do not get blown out and win more games at home.. I think he is golden..

While Pat wants to win even he knows how bad this team has been for many years and turning something like that around in 1-2 years is not going to happen..

for the past I do not even know now this team has been sky high for OAK but loose to another no body team the week before or after the OAK game..

mikey was a genius at Offense but later in his career here, he got stale/lazy/bored/overconfident I do not know but he was not the same guy we saw in the Superbowl years now maybe that was a lack of HOF talent.. But this team IMHO has been in a tailspin for many years and it finally hit home to Pat this past year..

nevcraw
04-12-2009, 04:55 PM
7 posts until Cutler was brought up.

Dawkins came over to help rebuild a defense, and he felt spurned in Philly by management. I think he hated to leave, but Denver put a good deal together.

I know, I know...speculation...but then again, Cutler was just one part of that offense.

I think Denver's 5th-ranked spot there was Shanahan's pig-headedness when trying to keep guys to prove that he drafted correctly...see cornerback and defensive line. He retained some guys who probably should have been cut, or traded, or packaged.

It's so hard to judge a talent-level, or a production value for each team from the draft. I've tried a few different ways by judging draft position and number of starts to come up with a value. It's hard. I don't think retention rate is the best way, though.


I honestly wanted to let dead dogs lie by then you go ahead and type such a steamy pile of....

Please re-watch the film from last year, becoause you do not get it.. Good bad or indifferent Cutler was the offense. he was not a part! he was the moon the stars and the freaking ocean of the offense. funny how yoiu could see it any other way..

Lonestar
04-12-2009, 04:59 PM
I honestly wanted to let dead dogs lie by then you go ahead and type such a steamy pile of....

Please re-watch the film from last year, becoause you do not get it.. Good bad or indifferent Cutler was the offense. he was not a part! he was the moon the stars and the freaking ocean of the offense. funny how yoiu could see it any other way..

I remember for many of those games the "moon the stars and the freaking ocean " stunk it up and then Hillis came in for 3-4 games and brought life back to the team..and when he went down with an injury we lacked passion..

So perhaps you might want to think about jaysus being the "moon the stars and the freaking ocean" to this offense.. :laugh::laugh:

nevcraw
04-12-2009, 05:11 PM
I remember for many of those games the "moon the stars and the freaking ocean " stunk it up and then Hillis came in for 3-4 games and brought life back to the team..and when he went down with an injury we lacked passion..

So perhaps you might want to think about jaysus being the "moon the stars and the freaking ocean" to this offense.. :laugh::laugh:

i do not consider him jaysus. LMAO.. but that is very funny!!!!

I am pretty sure I said good bad or indifferent.. I was not commenting on his play as much as his impact.
But why let the truth rob you of your argument Jr.
Cutler was the offense. Hillis who I loved was bairly a blip in the season. QB's are usually the most impactful player on the offense due to the amount of ball touches (somewhere outthere MB is getting all lathered up) Cutler was even more so due to the injuries to the running game. It's pretty obvious..

Hobe
04-12-2009, 05:53 PM
Here's a thought: Instead of looking at how many draftees make the team's active roster, a better barometer of success might be a survey of the last three years of drafts for all 32 NFL teams. To judge them, we looked at the percentage of players from those three draft classes who were still listed as active members of the team. The results were surprising.

Here’s another thought: Basing your judgment on one obscure stat is not very bright. Of course, this article is from that sports authority (?) “Forbes.”

gnomeflinger
04-12-2009, 05:57 PM
The Broncos are ranked fifth even after the loss of Cutler.

The other encouraging thing is that the Pats with Pioli were ranked dead last.

I would feel better about this if we hadn't gotten rid of the Goodmans.

http://www.forbes.com/2009/04/08/nfl-draft-teams-lifestyle-sports-nfl-draft.html?feed=rss_forbeslife_sport

It amused me that Seattle and Denver were ranked the same.

KCL
04-12-2009, 06:23 PM
But you have to be a good team before players want to come over.

Not really...or else the Chiefs wouldn't have anyone signing with them.That actually goes for teams with a mediocre record as well.

Lonestar
04-12-2009, 10:16 PM
i do not consider him jaysus. LMAO.. but that is very funny!!!!

I am pretty sure I said good bad or indifferent.. I was not commenting on his play as much as his impact.
But why let the truth rob you of your argument Jr.
Cutler was the offense. Hillis who I loved was bairly a blip in the season. QB's are usually the most impactful player on the offense due to the amount of ball touches (somewhere outthere MB is getting all lathered up) Cutler was even more so due to the injuries to the running game. It's pretty obvious..

well I guess I must have missed all that excitement in the games that Pittman and Hillis did not play in..

as Hillis was in case you did not notice our leading rusher for the year in the 3-4 games he was OUR RB not blocking back.. as well as the number 7 receiver for the team last year.. with pitman being the number 8 receiver and #2 RB..

getlynched47
04-12-2009, 10:21 PM
Haha the Patriots suck at Drafting. Pioli must suck at evaluating talent.
They have done really well at acquiring free agents though.

Lets hope McDaniels and Xanders aren't inept when it comes to evaluating talent :eek:

nevcraw
04-12-2009, 11:07 PM
well I guess I must have missed all that excitement in the games that Pittman and Hillis did not play in..

as Hillis was in case you did not notice our leading rusher for the year in the 3-4 games he was OUR RB not blocking back.. as well as the number 7 receiver for the team last year.. with pitman being the number 8 receiver and #2 RB..

Fine Jr.: Hillis and Pittman were more impactful to the offense than Cutler.

A couple of 300 yard rushers who were 7 and 8 respectively in cacthes were the lifeblood of the offense.

Lonestar
04-12-2009, 11:26 PM
Fine Jr.: Hillis and Pittman were more impactful to the offense than Cutler.

A couple of 300 yard rushers who were 7 and 8 respectively in cacthes were the lifeblood of the offense.

they seemed to energize the rest of the team.. at least that is what I saw and many folks thought the same of tater when he came off the cell block..

while the QB touches the ball on almost every offensive play they were the ones getting the team up..

Not sure what games you got to watch but they made things happen also..

EMB6903
04-12-2009, 11:29 PM
speaking of....

Peyton Hillis= Marion Barber Jr.

RunYouOver
04-13-2009, 04:37 PM
Yeah, I don't know why we got rid of them after our recent drafts have been so successful...and especially with all the picks we have now...


And yes, the Pats have been drafting terribly which is why you'll soon see them on the decline...