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Cugel
03-20-2012, 11:02 AM
This is an interesting article on NFL.com analyzing Tebow's potential trade value to other teams.


The fundamental problem is that whichever team takes on Tebow will have to overhaul its offense (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d827b42f8/article/tim-tebows-trade-value-complicated-by-many-intangible-factors?module=HP11_hot_topics) -- just like what Denver offensive coordinator Mike McCoy did in 2011 -- if the plan is indeed to start him.

"You gotta remove pride, remove your ego, and understand this player has a very specific skill set that's outside the box, and outside conventional NFL wisdom at the quarterback position," said an AFC personnel executive. "The more you watch of what Denver did, when you look at the Florida tape, you see how they achieved what they did, in implementing those things."

But the AFC exec continued, "If you're a conventional, dropback team, and you're gonna ask him to hit moving targets and get the ball downfield and ask him to be a pocket-passing player, it's not a good fit. I applaud what Mike McCoy did. He adjusted to the player. That's what you have to do."

And if you do that on a full-time basis, rather than as a part-time fix, it can be complicated.

"I went through switching a defense from a 4-3 to a 3-4, and that's not even close to switching an offense for a quarterback, and it took two and a half, three years to get functional," said the NFC exec. "Your personnel has to change. Your philosophy's gotta change. A lot of these coaches aren't willing to do that."

It seems like a lot of player personnel directors have little respect for Tim Tebow and that doesn't help his trade value. I think the statement of an NFC exec is typical:


"His value could be good, it could be really bad, depending on what teams get involved," said one NFC personnel executive. "Intangibles are off the charts, but his talent? Who knows right now? ... He's a wild card. Thing is, you've got to run a certain kind of offense. And if you're not willing to do that, which a lot of teams aren't, then he has no value at all. At our place? There wouldn't be value, besides as a backup player, and with his intangibles. But I'm sure it's all over the board."

That led me to ask if that meant Tebow's simply an option quarterback, which elicited this reponse: "Correct. Yes.

I think this is just wrong. Tebow isn't inevitably limited to being an option QB like this guy says.
That ignores Tebow's improvement during the season as a passer. He started out in training camp BEYOND HORRIBLE, throwing wildly inaccurate passes that sailed 15 yards beyond his WRs and dumping the ball into the ground on other throws. His first couple of starts he looked completely hopeless and incited mockery among the sportswriters and NFL execs.

But, he improved over the course of the season. It wasn't just the implementation of the option plays, although that obviously did wonders for his confidence. He improved at throwing sideline out patterns downfield which he couldn't hit before. He still struggles throwing timing patterns over the middle of the field, but the team would have to work on that with him.

Today he's by no means a polished passer and he's never going to be Tom Brady or Peyton Manning or Drew Brees, but he might well develop into an acceptable passing QB. He works hard and is coachable.

And that improvement led me to think he could potentially continue to improve.

That ought to be enough for some team to take him on and develop him. Work with him during the off-season and training camp and try and get him ready to be a better drop-back passer. He has some skills that should make him worth trading for for a team that is willing to work with him and overlook the short-comings of some of his more rabid fans.

I think he has some real value for the right team. And they wouldn't have to commit permanently to running an option style offense. Tebow can adapt. How well he'd do in a more conventional offense is an open question. But, to say he's simply an option QB isn't really correct anymore.

catfish
03-20-2012, 12:27 PM
This is an interesting article on NFL.com analyzing Tebow's potential trade value to other teams.



It seems like a lot of player personnel directors have little respect for Tim Tebow and that doesn't help his trade value. I think the statement of an NFC exec is typical:


I think this is just wrong. Tebow isn't inevitably limited to being an option QB like this guy says.
That ignores Tebow's improvement during the season as a passer. He started out in training camp BEYOND HORRIBLE, throwing wildly inaccurate passes that sailed 15 yards beyond his WRs and dumping the ball into the ground on other throws. His first couple of starts he looked completely hopeless and incited mockery among the sportswriters and NFL execs.

But, he improved over the course of the season. It wasn't just the implementation of the option plays, although that obviously did wonders for his confidence. He improved at throwing sideline out patterns downfield which he couldn't hit before. He still struggles throwing timing patterns over the middle of the field, but the team would have to work on that with him.

Today he's by no means a polished passer and he's never going to be Tom Brady or Peyton Manning or Drew Brees, but he might well develop into an acceptable passing QB. He works hard and is coachable.

And that improvement led me to think he could potentially continue to improve.

That ought to be enough for some team to take him on and develop him. Work with him during the off-season and training camp and try and get him ready to be a better drop-back passer. He has some skills that should make him worth trading for for a team that is willing to work with him and overlook the short-comings of some of his more rabid fans.

I think he has some real value for the right team. And they wouldn't have to commit permanently to running an option style offense. Tebow can adapt. How well he'd do in a more conventional offense is an open question. But, to say he's simply an option QB isn't really correct anymore.

I read that 5 teams have inquired about Tebow so far, so I think there is at least a little interest. I think the public way that they handled the situation is what will kill the value IMO, reports are the Broncos are going to be rid of Tebow regardless, why would you pay for someone elses trash. IMO the Broncos should have still gone after Manning but indicated they were going to work to improve Tebow behind Manning, at least then you could possibly get a 3rd for the trade...now you are negotiating from a position of "we will take whatever you will give" I don't see higher than a 4th

wayninja
03-20-2012, 12:38 PM
Has anyone heard from Tebow or his camp? Unless he is specifically requesting this, I still haven't heard a clear explanation for WHY we are trading him.

vandammage13
03-20-2012, 12:40 PM
How about trading Tebow to Jacksonville?...A novel idea, I know...

But instead of trading Tebow to Jax for a mid round pick, how about trading Tebow and a mid-round pick for Blaine Gabbert?

The move makes sense for both teams, to me anyway.

Tebow would make great business sense in Jax for obvious reasons, but bringing him in while still having Gabbert on the roster would be a death sentence to Gabbert's development (Rendering Gabbert essentially worthless). Fans in Jax would have absolutely no patience for Gabbert to develop with Tebow on the roster. The prospect of Tebow making the Jaguars relevant by breathing life into a dead organization similar to how he did for us last year is not something the Jags owner will ignore.

For the Broncos, we would be getting a first round proto-typical talent that could learn from Manning and be ready to take over in a few years. Sure, Gabbert looked pretty mundane as a rookie, but a lot of rookies do. I'm sure McCoy, Adam Gase, and Elway pride themselves on their ability to groom and develop a QB. This move would also keep us from spending a higher draft pick this year on a QB that is graded lower than Gabbert.

Just a thought, but I think it is a different angle as far as what we can expect to get.

Cugel
03-20-2012, 12:43 PM
I read that 5 teams have inquired about Tebow so far, so I think there is at least a little interest. I think the public way that they handled the situation is what will kill the value IMO, reports are the Broncos are going to be rid of Tebow regardless, why would you pay for someone elses trash. IMO the Broncos should have still gone after Manning but indicated they were going to work to improve Tebow behind Manning, at least then you could possibly get a 3rd for the trade...now you are negotiating from a position of "we will take whatever you will give" I don't see higher than a 4th

You may be right about the 4th or 5th rounder. Mark Schlereth doesn't think any team will trade for Tebow and that the Broncos will simply have to release him for nothing. I hope that isn't true of course.

But, just because the Broncos stated that they want to trade Tebow doesn't mean he has no trade value. If he's released he becomes a FA, and as a veteran (even as a backup QB) he would command a larger salary than his rookie contract. So, trading for him is a better value than signing him as a FA. Also, he might prefer to sign with some other team and you would lose out.

Admittedly these are not powerful factors in Tebow's case because not a lot of teams want him. But still it would cost the team more money to wait.

vandammage13
03-20-2012, 12:48 PM
Has anyone heard from Tebow or his camp? Unless he is specifically requesting this, I still haven't heard a clear explanation for WHY we are trading him.

Someone made a thread about this earlier, but Tebow has expressed to friends his desire to go back to Florida.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d827b9639/article/tim-tebow-reportedly-hopes-to-land-somewhere-in-florida?module=HP11_headline_stack

Not sure if he has expressed this sentiment to the Broncos though...Irrelevant really, as the Broncos have already expressed that they want to trade him anyway.

catfish
03-20-2012, 12:52 PM
How about trading Tebow to Jacksonville?...A novel idea, I know...

But instead of trading Tebow to Jax for a mid round pick, how about trading Tebow and a mid-round pick for Blaine Gabbert?

The move makes sense for both teams, to me anyway.

Tebow would make great business sense in Jax for obvious reasons, but bringing him in while still having Gabbert on the roster would be a death sentence to Gabbert's development (Rendering Gabbert essentially worthless). Fans in Jax would have absolutely no patience for Gabbert to develop with Tebow on the roster. The prospect of Tebow making the Jaguars relevant by breathing life into a dead organization similar to how he did for us last year is not something the Jags owner will ignore.

For the Broncos, we would be getting a first round proto-typical talent that could learn from Manning and be ready to take over in a few years. Sure, Gabbert looked pretty mundane as a rookie, but a lot of rookies do. I'm sure McCoy, Adam Gase, and Elway pride themselves on their ability to groom and develop a QB. This move would also keep us from spending a higher draft pick this year on a QB that is graded lower than Gabbert.

Just a thought, but I think it is a different angle as far as what we can expect to get.



If you could get the same deal for Mallett I would go that direction. I think Jax is in for a huge letdown with Gabbert next year

Cugel
03-20-2012, 12:54 PM
Has anyone heard from Tebow or his camp? Unless he is specifically requesting this, I still haven't heard a clear explanation for WHY we are trading him.

He said this morning that he would like to go to a Florida team. And of course there ARE "clear explanations for why Denver is trading him."

#1 -- Dump the Drama. EFX won't have to constantly worry they are going to have a national media fire-storm if they criticize the guy. Elway's comments became national news last season, and he clearly wasn't comfortable with that level of scrutiny. Tebow's extremist fan base is a decided negative for most NFL teams, including Denver.

#2 -- Unhappy Bench-Sitter. Tebow was a starter and wouldn't be happy sitting on the bench for 3 years. And you can't totally ignore what the player thinks just because he's under contract. Tebow, as a media star, has enormous power to cause complications just by stating casually in the media that he would like a chance to go elsewhere where he would have a chance to compete for a starting job. INSTANT NATIONAL NEWS and team conflict! NObody needs that!

#3 -- Durable Manning. Manning, before his injury started every game (over 120 in a row) and played virtually every down for over 10 years. What's Tebow going to do?

#4 -- If Manning Is Hurt? Manning is going to install HIS plays and system which are TOTALLY the opposite of Tebow. If Manning were hurt the Broncos need a backup QB who can come in and play with the Manning offense as it is designed. They can't just suddenly do a total switch back to a Tebow style offense after having installed Manning's system.

And no, the switch from Offense Orton to Offense Tebow is different. Orton was benched for failure so it made sense to install a Tebow friendly offense if Tebow might become the QB of the future. That can't happen with Manning. This is his team now until he retires. Obviously they can't totally switch from Manning offense, to Tebow offense, back to Manning offense if he's out for a few games.

#5 -- Although I could go on, I'll just stop here.

silkamilkamonico
03-20-2012, 12:55 PM
You gotta remove pride, remove your ego...

That will be damn near impossible for all the people they think they know player value around here.

LMAO

Cugel
03-20-2012, 01:00 PM
If you could get the same deal for Mallett I would go that direction. I think Jax is in for a huge letdown with Gabbert next year

Personally, I think Jacksonville is in for a huge letdown period! :laugh:

But, if I were them I'd get Tebow, and at least there'd be some excitement instead of empty seats. The owner would like to get Tebow, but they've already got two QB and their coach and GM have already come out flat against it.

Unless their owner completely over-rules his own staff like Bud Adams did in trying to sign Manning, it's not going to happen. The coach doesn't want Tebow and the GM doesn't want Tebow. It's not like Tebow is a known super-star like Manning. He needs a coaching staff willing to work with and develop him.

You can't just shove him down the throat of an unwilling coach and say "Here! Coach him up!"

So, I'd say Jax is out. Miami looks like the spot.

Cugel
03-20-2012, 01:01 PM
That will be damn near impossible for all the people they think they know player value around here.

LMAO

It isn't these boards that count. He's talking about NFL coaches and Offensive coordinators. They are PAID to "know player value." Whether they do or not!

topscribe
03-20-2012, 01:05 PM
This is an interesting article on NFL.com analyzing Tebow's potential trade value to other teams.



It seems like a lot of player personnel directors have little respect for Tim Tebow and that doesn't help his trade value. I think the statement of an NFC exec is typical:


I think this is just wrong. Tebow isn't inevitably limited to being an option QB like this guy says.
That ignores Tebow's improvement during the season as a passer. He started out in training camp BEYOND HORRIBLE, throwing wildly inaccurate passes that sailed 15 yards beyond his WRs and dumping the ball into the ground on other throws. His first couple of starts he looked completely hopeless and incited mockery among the sportswriters and NFL execs.

But, he improved over the course of the season. It wasn't just the implementation of the option plays, although that obviously did wonders for his confidence. He improved at throwing sideline out patterns downfield which he couldn't hit before. He still struggles throwing timing patterns over the middle of the field, but the team would have to work on that with him.

Today he's by no means a polished passer and he's never going to be Tom Brady or Peyton Manning or Drew Brees, but he might well develop into an acceptable passing QB. He works hard and is coachable.

And that improvement led me to think he could potentially continue to improve.

That ought to be enough for some team to take him on and develop him. Work with him during the off-season and training camp and try and get him ready to be a better drop-back passer. He has some skills that should make him worth trading for for a team that is willing to work with him and overlook the short-comings of some of his more rabid fans.

I think he has some real value for the right team. And they wouldn't have to commit permanently to running an option style offense. Tebow can adapt. How well he'd do in a more conventional offense is an open question. But, to say he's simply an option QB isn't really correct anymore.

Nice post, Cug. Thanks.

As you said, Tebow may never become another Brady or Manning from the pocket. But neither was Fran Tarkenton. Some here aren't old enough to remember Tarkenton, but he could scramble and run, just as Tebow can today. Tarkenton became adequate in the pocket, which made him good enough to take his Vikings to four Super Bowls (never won, but he went there) and be elected into the Hall of Fame.

If Tebow, likewise, can become just adequate in the pocket, he will never be a pleasant QB to prepare for by opposing defenses . . .

vandammage13
03-20-2012, 01:12 PM
He said this morning that he would like to go to a Florida team. And of course there ARE "clear explanations for why Denver is trading him."

Haha...I disagree with every point...


#1 -- Dump the Drama. EFX won't have to constantly worry they are going to have a national media fire-storm if they criticize the guy. Elway's comments became national news last season, and he clearly wasn't comfortable with that level of scrutiny. Tebow's extremist fan base is a decided negative for most NFL teams, including Denver.

There will be no need to criticize him when he's riding the bench. Anyway, the firestorm was created by the media, not the fans. The media was happy to report "See, even Elway doesn't like him as a QB."


#2 -- Unhappy Bench-Sitter. Tebow was a starter and wouldn't be happy sitting on the bench for 3 years. And you can't totally ignore what the player thinks just because he's under contract. Tebow, as a media star, has enormous power to cause complications just by stating casually in the media that he would like a chance to go elsewhere where he would have a chance to compete for a starting job. INSTANT NATIONAL NEWS and team conflict! NObody needs that!

I don't think that Tebow is the type of guy who's going to be disruptive in the locker room...Not his style.


#3 -- Durable Manning. Manning, before his injury started every game (over 120 in a row) and played virtually every down for over 10 years. What's Tebow going to do?

How many downs did Manning play last year? It is very plausible that he will miss significant time due to injury over the life of this contract...Age catches up to us all at some point, and I think it may have already caught up to Manning.


#4 -- If Manning Is Hurt? Manning is going to install HIS plays and system which are TOTALLY the opposite of Tebow. If Manning were hurt the Broncos need a backup QB who can come in and play with the Manning offense as it is designed. They can't just suddenly do a total switch back to a Tebow style offense after having installed Manning's system."

And no, the switch from Offense Orton to Offense Tebow is different. Orton was benched for failure so it made sense to install a Tebow friendly offense if Tebow might become the QB of the future. That can't happen with Manning. This is his team now until he retires. Obviously they can't totally switch from Manning offense, to Tebow offense, back to Manning offense if he's out for a few games.

How many Backup QB's do you think can come in and run Manning's offense? There are probably only 4 QB's at all who could and those guys are MVP candidates who have all won SB's and I don't think they are going to sign on to be Manning's backup anytime soon. If you think you are going to find a backup quality QB that can run Manning's offense, you are sadly mistaken my friend.


#5 -- Although I could go on, I'll just stop here.

Good.

Cugel
03-20-2012, 01:13 PM
Nice post, Cug. Thanks.

As you said, Tebow may never become another Brady or Manning from the pocket. But neither was Fran Tarkenton. Some here aren't old enough to remember Tarkenton, but he could scramble and run, just as Tebow can today. Tarkenton became adequate in the pocket, which made him good enough to take his Vikings to four Super Bowls (never won, but he went there) and be elected into the Hall of Fame.

If Tebow, likewise, can become just adequate in the pocket, he will never be a pleasant QB to prepare for by opposing defenses . . .

I was a big fan of Tarkenton growing up when he was QB for the Giants, before he went to Minn. He was the first "scrambling QB" and tons of idiots kept saying "a scrambler can never be a winner" about him. Yet, there he is in the Hall of Fame.

Now, I don't see Tebow as a potential HOF candidate. But, the key point is this: how much can Tebow develop as a pocket passer if a team would commit to working with him?

I don't think anybody really knows the answer to that one. And for NFL executives to say "he's just an option QB" shows they are prejudging him.

BTW: Tarkenton wasn't the Vikings QB for their first SB appearance when they lost to the Chiefs in 1970. Didn't they have Joe Kapp in those days?

I am decidedly NOT a Tebow fan (although I liked watching him play at Florida when they were on TV and remember thinking then "the Broncos should check this guy out").

At the beginning of the season I wanted him out of town as a hopeless case. His first couple of starts convinced me he would be cut at the end of the season and be out of the NFL.

But, he started showing some real improvement as a passer by season's end. He still is inaccurate in the middle of the field, but he started being confident enough to throw sideline patters as he did to win the Steelers game.

That convinced me he COULD develop as a passer. And somebody should give him the chance to do it. And Florida is really the place for him. With that fanatical fan base behind him, he could really get that Jacksonville team going.

We sure know Chad Henne is not going to do anything for them! :coffee:

P.S.: I found this little tidbid about Joe Kapp:


In December 1981, Kapp made a promise to the [Cal] football team that he would not consume any of his favorite alcoholic beverage, tequila, until the Golden Bears reached the Rose Bowl. As of March 2011, the Golden Bears have yet to return to the Rose Bowl and Kapp has resorted to drinking rum instead.

Cugel
03-20-2012, 03:26 PM
Haha...I disagree with every point...

There will be no need to criticize him when he's riding the bench. Anyway, the firestorm was created by the media, not the fans. The media was happy to report "See, even Elway doesn't like him as a QB."

I don't think that Tebow is the type of guy who's going to be disruptive in the locker room...Not his style.

How many downs did Manning play last year? It is very plausible that he will miss significant time due to injury over the life of this contract...Age catches up to us all at some point, and I think it may have already caught up to Manning.

How many Backup QB's do you think can come in and run Manning's offense? There are probably only 4 QB's at all who could and those guys are MVP candidates who have all won SB's and I don't think they are going to sign on to be Manning's backup anytime soon. If you think you are going to find a backup quality QB that can run Manning's offense, you are sadly mistaken my friend.

The things I wrote are not even controversial among sportswriters. They reflect the overwhelming majority opinion and your views represent the crank fringe position on this:


"Does Tebow remain in Denver as a backup to a quarterback who almost never took a snap off when he was healthy? Hard to imagine, especially because the new offense essentially will be Manning's offense - no match for Tebow's skill set. (http://apnews1.iwon.com/article/20120320/D9TK9P4O2.html) And surely Elway wouldn't want to be in his box hearing chants of "We want Tebow" once again, should Manning somehow get off to a rocky start in Denver."

And this article:


Now that the Broncos have a more traditional starting quarterback, they will look to complement Peyton Manning with a more traditional backup quarterback.
(http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_20211022/broncos-look-at-more-traditional-backup-qbs?source=pkg)
Among the No. 2 quarterbacks still available in the market are San Diego's Billy Volek, Chicago's Caleb Hanie, Houston's Matt Leinart, St. Louis' A.J. Feeley and Manning's former Indianapolis Colts teammate Curtis Painter.

Had the Broncos not been able to land Manning, they were more apt to go for a more athletic-type quarterback such as Josh Johnson or Dennis Dixon to back up starter Tim Tebow.

The Broncos will trade Tebow prior to the NFL draft in late April in a move that would help the team and the quarterback get a fresh start.

catfish
03-20-2012, 03:30 PM
The things I wrote are not even controversial among sportswriters. They reflect the overwhelming majority opinion and your views represent the crank fringe position on this:



And this article:

You are right Cugel, as much as I would like to you CAN'T keep last years starter on the roster once he is replaced. God forbid Denver start out 0-2 the chans would definately start up. With Tebow gone even if the season tanks Manning will be the unquestioned starter. Won't keep it from being a black mark though

BigDaddyBronco
03-20-2012, 03:39 PM
Yea we should get Painter, cause he looked good when Peyton went down.

Simple Jaded
03-20-2012, 06:51 PM
I was a big fan of Tarkenton growing up when he was QB for the Giants, before he went to Minn. He was the first "scrambling QB" and tons of idiots kept saying "a scrambler can never be a winner" about him. Yet, there he is in the Hall of Fame.

Now, I don't see Tebow as a potential HOF candidate. But, the key point is this: how much can Tebow develop as a pocket passer if a team would commit to working with him?

I don't think anybody really knows the answer to that one. And for NFL executives to say "he's just an option QB" shows they are prejudging him.

BTW: Tarkenton wasn't the Vikings QB for their first SB appearance when they lost to the Chiefs in 1970. Didn't they have Joe Kapp in those days?

I am decidedly NOT a Tebow fan (although I liked watching him play at Florida when they were on TV and remember thinking then "the Broncos should check this guy out").

At the beginning of the season I wanted him out of town as a hopeless case. His first couple of starts convinced me he would be cut at the end of the season and be out of the NFL.

But, he started showing some real improvement as a passer by season's end. He still is inaccurate in the middle of the field, but he started being confident enough to throw sideline patters as he did to win the Steelers game.

That convinced me he COULD develop as a passer. And somebody should give him the chance to do it. And Florida is really the place for him. With that fanatical fan base behind him, he could really get that Jacksonville team going.

We sure know Chad Henne is not going to do anything for them! :coffee:

P.S.: I found this little tidbid about Joe Kapp:

Wait, Tim Tebow can develope but Chad Henne can't? Henne is already a better passer than Tebow.......

HORSEPOWER 56
03-20-2012, 06:55 PM
Wait, Tim Tebow can develope but Chad Henne can't? Henne is already a better passer than Tebow.......

Unfortunately for Henne, even with a better WR corps, better RBs, and a better defense he still couldn't win... What a shame the NFL is more than just being able to throw a pretty spiral...

claymore
03-20-2012, 07:05 PM
I can see Tebow as cheap incentive for the Jets to push Sanchez. Plus help their redzone and running game. He might have an actual chance to start their within the next couple years. And Ryan is a blowhard that likes to stir shit.

Simple Jaded
03-20-2012, 07:09 PM
Unfortunately for Henne, even with a better WR corps, better RBs, and a better defense he still couldn't win... What a shame the NFL is more than just being able to throw a pretty spiral...

A ****in spiral? As if that's the only issue Tebow has, that's just the tip of the iceberg. Henne can hit a 1 route to BOTH sides of the field, he's got Tebow beat by a mile.......

HORSEPOWER 56
03-20-2012, 07:17 PM
A ****in spiral? As if that's the only issue Tebow has, that's just the tip of the iceberg. Henne can hit a 1 route to BOTH sides of the field, he's got Tebow beat by a mile.......

... and he still can't win with a better team... What does that tell ya?

Simple Jaded
03-21-2012, 02:04 AM
... and he still can't win with a better team... What does that tell ya?

Miami is a better team? The Broncos just beat them on their field with a backup QB.......