Great article from the post

[BigAL56]

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_12060312

Krieger: Welcome back to mediocrity
By Dave Krieger
Denver Post Columnist

Kyle Orton? Really?

Be still, our hearts.

Welcome back, Broncos, to a world you thought you left behind in 2006. Welcome back to the world of mediocre quarterbacks.

Welcome back to Mike Tomczak and Jim Miller, Chad Hutchinson and Rex Grossman, the world the Bears just left behind.

Welcome back to Steve Tensi and Steve Ramsey and Max Choboian. That's right, Max Choboian. Led the Broncos in passing in 1966. You can look it up.

There's a reason they were celebrating in Chicago and we were shaking our heads in Denver on Thursday, even with all those draft picks. However you felt about Jay Cutler, there is no debate in the NFL about the importance of franchise quarterbacks.

The past five Super Bowl champion quarterbacks are Ben Roethlisberger, Eli Manning, Peyton Manning, Ben Roethlisberger and Tom Brady. Franchise quarterbacks all.

A Super Bowl has been won twice in recent years by mediocre quarterbacks — Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer — but they played with two of the best defenses in NFL history. The Broncos will not be accused of that anytime soon.

The only important question now is whether Josh McDaniels understands this. If he does, he will do what he has to do — including using some of those new draft picks — to move up in the first round of the draft and take Southern Cal's Mark Sanchez, the one quarterback in the draft who fits the apparently stringent requirements of his offense.

If he doesn't, if he uses those extra draft picks to shore up a defense that badly needs it, he will consign the Broncos to the world the Bears inhabited for a generation, a world the Broncos inhabited for most of their first 23 years.

Teams in that world tend to be unsuccessful. Worse, they tend to be boring. Football still is entertainment, after all. The jaw-dropping plays go away. Every now and then your team puts together a workmanlike scoring drive. The rest of the time it stumbles around. Your punter and field-goal kicker become your most important players. Football games seem to take much longer than they used to.

If McDaniels doesn't understand this, the Broncos are looking at a competition between Orton and Chris Simms. Is Steve Beuerlein still out there somewhere?

In the coming days, the spin will come on Orton. How he really played doggone well last year for the Bears. How Lovie Smith repeatedly endorsed him. (Sort of the way he endorsed Grossman before him. This is what coaches normally do for their quarterbacks.)

Here's what Bears general manager Jerry Angelo said about Orton after last season:

"I think we have to have competition at that position. We have to get that position right. I know there's going to be a lot of talk about a No. 1 receiver. Guys, it starts with the quarterback. It's all about the quarterback. You don't win because of wide receivers. You don't win because of running backs. You win because of the quarterback. We've got to get the quarterback position stabilized."

This was Mike Shanahan's nearly decade-long quest after John Elway's retirement. He thought he found a worthy successor in Brian Griese. For a while, he sold him as a poor man's Joe Montana, a master technician. But fans grew impatient with Griese's athletic limitations, the timid dink-and-dunk game, and ultimately so did Shanahan.

Next, he tried free agency. Jake Plummer was a starter in the league. These days, exasperation with the Cutler saga is causing a Plummer renaissance among fans, who propose pilgrimages to Idaho to bring him back. But Shanahan concluded, as he had with Griese, that Plummer just didn't have it.

"It" at the quarterback position is indefinable, but as Potter Stewart said of obscenity, you know it when you see it.

Shanahan saw it in Cutler, and so did we. At least until three months ago, when the message from Dove Valley changed. Wanting to impose his system and his will on his new team, McDaniels wished for a more limited quarterback, less of a gunslinger, a player who would draw within the coach's lines.

The Bears were only too happy to oblige. This much you can take to the bank: Kyle Orton will definitely draw within the lines.

[roomemp]

ummmmmmmmmmmm the Broncos records since 2006

9-7
7-9
8-8

Thats not mediocre????????????????

[BigAL56]

He said mediocre Quarterbacks, not mediocre team.

[Rex]

The last Mediocre QB took them to the AFC Championship game.

[roomemp]

He said mediocre Quarterbacks, not mediocre team.


17-30 is not mediocre?

[BigAL56]

The last Mediocre QB took them to the AFC Championship game.

Do you really think that season was because of Jake Plummer? Our team was FAR better then than it is now. Take Cutler out of the equation last season and we are the Detroit Lions of 2008.

[buffsroam]

If you listen to or read Krieger's work then you are dumber for it. He is an idiot (he lives in my neighborhood) and I have had interactions with him. The guy does not know anything about sports and I cannot figure out how he got his job. I guess that he tries to stir things up and that gets a response. His bosses see this as a good thing which kind of tell us about the state of our media. No wonder newspapers are failing all across the country. By the way his former employer is gone. He was part of that. I cancelled my RMN years ago. Mostly because of him.

[turftoad]

Do you really think that season was because of Jake Plummer? Our team was FAR better then than it is now. Take Cutler out of the equation last season and we are the Detroit Lions of 2008.

Great point !!

[BigAL56]

17-30 is not mediocre?

So you think Jay Cutler is mediocre because of his record. That's not the fault of the defense?
A mediocre QB that got 2 first round pics, 1 third round pick, and a QB in return? A mediocre QB that threw 4500 yards?

[CoachChaz]

Do you really think that season was because of Jake Plummer? Our team was FAR better then than it is now. Take Cutler out of the equation last season and we are the Detroit Lions of 2008.

So you admit that a good team is better than a good QB. A good team is made with draft picks...which we now have thanks to the good QB that wanted out

[CoachChaz]

So you think Jay Cutler is mediocre because of his record. That's not the fault of the defense. A mediocre QB that got 2 first round pics, 1 third round pick, and a QB in return. A mediocre QB that threw 4500 yards.

Why is 4500 yards something to cream about? I'd rather a QB that throws for 2500 yards and 35 TD's

[BigAL56]

Why is 4500 yards something to cream about? I'd rather a QB that throws for 2500 yards and 35 TD's

That would also be considered a great QB. Find one of those, but not Kyle Orton.

[Rex]

Do you really think that season was because of Jake Plummer? Our team was FAR better then than it is now. Take Cutler out of the equation last season and we are the Detroit Lions of 2008.

No. It shows you that you dont have to have a HOF QB to enjoy some success.

And you are wrong about the last statement too. But oh well.
I understand feelings are raw right now. Enough.

[Rex]

Why is 4500 yards something to cream about? I'd rather a QB that throws for 2500 yards and 35 TD's

20 ints gets left out.

They lost games that the defense played decent. Oak. Mia. Buff.

We only hear about 4500 yds. Good thing he does have an cannon becuase if his arm was avg, he would have had 40 ints.

[BigAL56]

So you admit that a good team is better than a good QB. A good team is made with draft picks...which we now have thanks to the good QB that wanted out

Yes, I do. But, we are a worse team right now. You need BOTH a good team and a good quarterback. Right now we have neither. At least we had one of the two and we could draft and work over the next few years to build the defense. But instead of taking a step forward to fix it, we got rid of the other.

So it's takes both and now we have neither.

[roomemp]

Do you really think that season was because of Jake Plummer? Our team was FAR better then than it is now. Take Cutler out of the equation last season and we are the Detroit Lions of 2008.

So Cutler was the reason our O line was so good.

Cutler was also the reason why Eddie Royal and B-Marsh broke so many tackles.

I forgot this one too. Cutler was the reason why our play calling was pretty good. Oh wait. Cutler never called his own plays.

I think you have this backwards. Cutler would be nothing without the strong supporting cast that is still intact in Denver.

Plummer did have a great year in 2005 by the way.

[roomemp]

So you think Jay Cutler is mediocre because of his record. That's not the fault of the defense?
A mediocre QB that got 2 first round pics, 1 third round pick, and a QB in return? A mediocre QB that threw 4500 yards?



The media controls more than you think my friend.

[Rex]

So Cutler was the reason our O line was so good.

Cutler was also the reason why Eddie Royal and B-Marsh broke so many tackles.

I forgot this one too. Cutler was the reason why our play calling was pretty good. Oh wait. Cutler never called his own plays.

I think you have this backwards. Cutler would be nothing without the strong supporting cast that is still intact in Denver.

Plummer did have a great year in 2005 by the way.

Plummer didnt have Marshall, Royal, Sheffler, or Clady and co.

[BigAL56]

20 ints gets left out.

They lost games that the defense played decent. Oak. Mia. Buff.

We only hear about 4500 yds. Good thing he does have an cannon becuase if his arm was avg, he would have had 40 ints.

18 pics isn't terrible for a QB in his 3rd year, and with 25 TDs...thats considered a great season.

The defense did not play "decent" in those games...tell me this though.

If our defense was top 10, what would our record have been? 15-1, 14-2?

[BigAL56]

The media controls more than you think my friend.

If you really think that the media is the reason Denver got so much in return... well, think what you want...no need for me to even respond to that

[broncohead]

So you admit that a good team is better than a good QB. A good team is made with draft picks...which we now have thanks to the good QB that wanted out

We drafted Cutler with out draft picks. Lets just trade all the talent we drafted so we can have more picks. dumb.

[Rex]

18 pics isn't terrible for a QB in his 3rd year, and with 25 TDs...thats considered a great season.

The defense did not play "decent" in those games...tell me this though.

If our defense was top 10, what would our record have been? 15-1, 14-2?

So now we are going to bring up experience in addition to the defense.

Elway won in his second year with MUCH less than Cutler.

Plummer threw for 4000 yards 27 TDs and 20 INTs in 04 and he is TERRIBLE...remember?

TrINT Green was 13-3 with the WORST defense in the NFL.

[BigAL56]

Plummer didnt have Marshall, Royal, Sheffler, or Clady and co.

I'll give you that, but he had a much better running game. He had wideouts the were consistent (marshall led the league in drops.) Scheffler didn't play much last year

[CoachChaz]

Yes, I do. But, we are a worse team right now. You need BOTH a good team and a good quarterback. Right now we have neither. At least we had one of the two and we could draft and work over the next few years to build the defense. But instead of taking a step forward to fix it, we got rid of the other.

So it's takes both and now we have neither.

Orton had success in a bad offense with bad players. Why is it impossible to believe he could do better in a better system with better players?

[BigAL56]

So Cutler was the reason our O line was so good.

Cutler was also the reason why Eddie Royal and B-Marsh broke so many tackles.

I forgot this one too. Cutler was the reason why our play calling was pretty good. Oh wait. Cutler never called his own plays.

I think you have this backwards. Cutler would be nothing without the strong supporting cast that is still intact in Denver.

Plummer did have a great year in 2005 by the way.

18 td's is decent. Luckily our defense played well. If we gave up a lot of points, we would have been screwed

[Rex]

I'll give you that, but he had a much better running game. He had wideouts the were consistent (marshall led the league in drops.) Scheffler didn't play much last year

Never mind.

You have a book of excuses for Cutler. It is okay.

He is gone. It is moot.

[BigAL56]

Orton had success in a bad offense with bad players. Why is it impossible to believe he could do better in a better system with better players?

He had decent numbers for a small stretch of last season. Hardly call that success...especially b/c other than those first 6 games last year, he's been one of the worst QB's in football.

He is inaccurate. He has very little arm strength. And he is slow

[BigAL56]

Never mind.

You have a book of excuses for Cutler. It is okay.

He is gone. It is moot.

I'm with you, he is gone. It is moot. The point is we have to do something about it, because we can't have success in Denver without a good QB. It is going to take a long time to rebuild that D, and we are worse right now than we were at the end of last year. We took a step back on the D-line. We took a step back at linebacker (Andra Davis is just awful.) And we are about the same in the defensive backfield. Goodman can't hold Bly's jock. Hill is not even considered average in most circles. At least we have Dawkins, but that was the only step we took forward.

We need another QB, and quick. Get one and then use the rest of the picks to go defense.

[roomemp]

He had decent numbers for a small stretch of last season. Hardly call that success...especially b/c other than those first 6 games last year, he's been one of the worst QB's in football.

He is inaccurate. He has very little arm strength. And he is slow

Actually he is very accurate. In regards to his arm strength, Niko K., who was his teammate in college, says he has a rocket arm. I am willing to give him a chance. I am not say Orton is the answer, but he definatley has upside

[BigAL56]

Actually he is very accurate. In regards to his arm strength, Niko K., who was his teammate in college, says he has a rocket arm. I am willing to give him a chance. I am not say Orton is the answer, but he definatley has upside

lol, well have you watched him? He can't throw the deep ball, that's widely known. He has no velocity on his throws, and he is very rarely hits the wideout in perfect stride. I watched just about every bear game the last 3 years and trust me, he is not accurate and he has a noodle for an arm

Eddie and the brandon's aren't going to make his arm or his accuracy any better

[roomemp]

lol, well have you watched him? He can't throw the deep ball, that's widely known. He has no velocity on his throws, and he is very rarely hits the wideout in perfect stride. I watched just about every bear game the last 3 years and trust me, he is not accurate and he has a noodle for an arm

Eddie and the brandon's aren't going to make his arm or his accuracy any better

So what do you suggest?

[BigAL56]

Package Orton with one of our firsts to get up for Sanchez. At least we'd have an SC guy waiting in the wings that played in the same system as Cassel. We suck next year with Simms holding the gap. But I think Sanchez would be better than both Simms and Orton this year.

Do that and take the rest on defense. Tyson Jackson would be a beautiful first round pick along with Sanchez

[Watchthemiddle]

Why is 4500 yards something to cream about? I'd rather a QB that throws for 2500 yards and 35 TD's

And be 12-4 or 13-3 with a well balanced team.

Anyone ever notice how many turnovers Cutler had in our Loses this year? Its dreadful...but now he is gone so we can move on.:elefant:

[topscribe]

Orton had success in a bad offense with bad players. Why is it impossible to believe he could do better in a better system with better players?

You hit the nail on the head, Coach. I don't know why people aren't willing to
give Orton more of a chance. Look, this last year was essentially his second
year on the field. What did he do in his second year on the field? He passed
for 3,000 yards, a 79.6 rating, and a 9-7 record. That was with, as you
implied, an O-line and weapons that were inferior to what the Broncos have.

Lovie Smith liked Orton. Angelo didn't. Who is the football mind there: the
glorified fan with the big pocketbook or the guy who has been down on the
field for most of his adult life, working with and evaluating talent?

Far as I'm concerned, Chicago screwed the pooch in that one. They didn't
need Cutler. They needed to surround Orton with protection and weapons.
Cutler will do a better job, yes, because he is experienced at running for his
life (see Vanderbilt). But they didn't need to do that.

In Orton, the Broncos have what they need, IMO. They will give him protection
at the line. He will have one of the best receiving corps in the league. He loves
TEs, we are told. He had one good TE in Chicago; now he has Scheffler,
Graham and Putzier to catch his balls.

Orton is a game manager. And he has a rocket arm . . . I documented that
quite well elsewhere in this forum. He is more gifted than Cassell, the guy
McDaniels is said to have wanted.

Give him a chance, for crying out loud. What do we have to lose this year?
The Super Bowl, maybe? Give me a break.

-----

[BigAL56]

You hit the nail on the head, Coach. I don't know why people aren't willing to
give Orton more of a chance. Look, this last year was essentially his second
year on the field. What did he do in his second year on the field? He passed
for 3,000 yards, a 79.6 rating, and a 9-7 record. That was with, as you
implied, an O-line and weapons that were inferior to what the Broncos have.

Lovie Smith liked Orton. Angelo didn't. Who is the football mind there: the
glorified fan with the big pocketbook or the guy who has been down on the
field for most of his adult life, working with and evaluating talent?

Far as I'm concerned, Chicago screwed the pooch in that one. They didn't
need Cutler. They needed to surround Orton with protection and weapons.
Cutler will do a better job, yes, because he is experienced at running for his
life (see Vanderbilt). But they didn't need to do that.

In Orton, the Broncos have what they need, IMO. They will give him protection
at the line. He will have one of the best receiving corps in the league. He loves
TEs, we are told. He had one good TE in Chicago; now he has Scheffler,
Graham and Putzier to catch his balls.

Orton is a game manager. And he has a rocket arm . . . I documented that
quite well elsewhere in this forum. He is more gifted than Cassell, the guy
McDaniels is said to have wanted.

Give him a chance, for crying out loud. What do we have to lose this year?
The Super Bowl, maybe? Give me a break.

-----

Because he didn't have success. 79.6 is not a good passer rating. Lovie Smith also liked Grossman. He likes whoever he has. Orton does not have a have a rocket arm, I don't know where guys are getting that.

What we have to lose is the future of our franchise. We need to keep our offensive weapons happy, and they won't be unless we get a guy that can throw them the football

[CoachChaz]

I like to look at the success Orton had in college. he ran a spread offense at Purdue like Brees did. Brees supposedly has inferior skills, but he makes the most of them in the right system. I think Orton could replicate that in the system McDaniels will have him in.

Say what you will, but Orton has always had the ability to get his players and coaches to support him completely. he should be able to win over his teammates and excel in McD's offense. I'm looking forward to it.

[CoachChaz]

Because he didn't have success. 79.6 is not a good passer rating. Lovie Smith also liked Grossman. He likes whoever he has. Orton does not have a have a rocket arm, I don't know where guys are getting that.

What we have to lose is the future of our franchise. We need to keep our offensive weapons happy, and they won't be unless we get a guy that can throw them the football

This is silly. How the hell can anyone say Orton cant throw the football? Can he throw it through the receivers chests? No...but that has nothing to do with success. Trust me...he throws plenty hard enough and will succeed in this type of offense

[BigAL56]

4th round pick. Never done well in the NFL. Injury prone. I just don't see how anyone can't look forward to that

[CoachChaz]

4th round pick. Never done well in the NFL. Injury prone. I just don't see how anyone can't look forward to that

This is left to interpretation just as much as saying Cutler has had success simply because he threw for 4000 yards.

[BigAL56]

This is silly. How the hell can anyone say Orton cant throw the football? Can he throw it through the receivers chests? No...but that has nothing to do with success. Trust me...he throws plenty hard enough and will succeed in this type of offense

Would you really be saying this two weeks ago? Kyle Orton is one of the laughing stocks of the league, has been since he got in the league. He was a fourth round pick and plays like a fourth round pick

[BigAL56]

This is left to interpretation just as much as saying Cutler has had success simply because he threw for 4000 yards.

Name me one other QB who threw for 4500 yards and was not very good.

I can name you a ton of QBs that went to the playoffs b/c their team carried them

[Watchthemiddle]

I like to look at the success Orton had in college. he ran a spread offense at Purdue like Brees did. Brees supposedly has inferior skills, but he makes the most of them in the right system. I think Orton could replicate that in the system McDaniels will have him in.

Say what you will, but Orton has always had the ability to get his players and coaches to support him completely. he should be able to win over his teammates and excel in McD's offense. I'm looking forward to it.

All of the reports I have read and scene about Orton from his teammates is that this team will love having him here. He is a team first guy, great teammate...great locker room guy.

Huh, haven't heard anyone say that about Jay. WHere is all of Jay's former teammates? I've heard more Bear players talk about Jay than Bronco players.

[BigAL56]

All of the reports I have read and scene about Orton from his teammates is that this team will love having him here. He is a team first guy, great teammate...great locker room guy.

Huh, haven't heard anyone say that about Jay. WHere is all of Jay's former teammates? I've heard more Bear players talk about Jay than Bronco players.


Because them talking about it would get them castrated by their coach. Trust me, they aren't happy. McD told them not to talk about it to the media.

Royal did anyway the other day, and he said Jay was his best friend on the team.

[Watchthemiddle]

4th round pick. Never done well in the NFL. Injury prone. I just don't see how anyone can't look forward to that

........on a piss poor offensive team. Jay better watch out..he is not only going to be running for his life a lot, but if he got upset in Denver after being knocked down once or twice a game and getting sacked 10 times...he is really going to pout in CHicago. They are a Defensive and run first oriented mentality of a team and organization. And Da Bears fans are going to be 100 X harsher on him than anyone was in Denver.

[Tempus Fugit]

Name me one other QB who threw for 4500 yards and was not very good.

I can name you a ton of QBs that went to the playoffs b/c their team carried them

Culpepper
Lomax

[topscribe]

Because he didn't have success. 79.6 is not a good passer rating. Lovie Smith also liked Grossman. He likes whoever he has. Orton does not have a have a rocket arm, I don't know where guys are getting that.

What we have to lose is the future of our franchise. We need to keep our offensive weapons happy, and they won't be unless we get a guy that can throw them the football

Please, if you don't think Orton has a strong arm, then document it as I did.
Don't go arguing with all the documentation I've produced by telling us
something out of your head and expecting us to believe it. That will not get
you credibility around here. Step outside this thread and see where I have
thoroughly documented that Orton has a very strong arm.

You also said Orton "didn't have success." What is your definition of "success"?
You said a 79.6 is not a good one. Did you realize that, in his second year on
the field, Elway had a 76.8 rating? Oh yeah, Lovie liked Grossman. I'm sure
Lovie was in love with Grossmans 66.4 rating in 2007, as he guided the same
team Orton had in 2008 to a 2-5 record in the seven full games he played.
Yes, Lovie liked Grossman. That is why Orton won the starting job over
Grossman on Lovie's watch.

So Orton "didn't have success." Here is his W-L last year: 9-7. Here is Cutler's:
8-8. If Orton "didn't have success," what does that make Cutler? Orton was
very successful, considering the inferior line and weapons he worked with.
While Cutler was enjoying the likes of Marshall, Royal, and Stokley, Orton was
at the mercy of two 5-9" CB wannabes.

Provide some facts and figures, as I have. Then you'll have something to talk
about. :coffee:

-----

[CoachChaz]

Because them talking about it would get them castrated by their coach. Trust me, they aren't happy. McD told them not to talk about it to the media.

Royal did anyway the other day, and he said Jay was his best friend on the team.

Let's not skew the facts please. Royal said Jay is a friend of mine, but I have to focus on the job at hand.

"Best friend on the team" was not a part of that comment

[CoachChaz]

Am I witnessing top defend orton over Cutler?

[BigAL56]

Culpepper
Lomax

Both played very well their first years in the NFL. Both went to the pro bowl.

But otherwise, props...good find

[Watchthemiddle]

I see wins on the horizon....

This is kind of like the days of Plummer. He played on a poor offensive team before he got here and once he got his shot on a good team, he blew up.

Orton will do the same thing.

[BigAL56]

Please, if you don't think Orton has a strong arm, then document it as I did.
Don't go arguing with all the documentation I've produced by telling us
something out of your head and expecting us to believe it. That will not get
you credibility around here. Step outside this thread and see where I have
thoroughly documented that Orton has a very strong arm.

You also said Orton "didn't have success." What is your definition of "success"?
You said a 79.6 is not a good one. Did you realize that, in his second year on
the field, Elway had a 76.8 rating? Oh yeah, Lovie liked Grossman. I'm sure
Lovie was in love with Grossmans 66.4 rating in 2007, as he guided the same
team Orton had in 2008 to a 2-5 record in the seven full games he played.
Yes, Lovie liked Grossman. That is why Orton won the starting job over
Grossman on Lovie's watch.

So Orton "didn't have success." Here is his W-L last year: 9-7. Here is Cutler's:
8-8. If Orton "didn't have success," what does that make Cutler? Orton was
very successful, considering the inferior line and weapons he worked with.
While Cutler was enjoying the likes of Marshall, Royal, and Stokley, Orton was
at the mercy of two 5-9" CB wannabes.

Provide some facts and figures, as I have. Then you'll have something to talk
about. :coffee:

-----

lol, really?

Okay, I don't know what documentation you are refferring to. But the documentation I have is watching Orton his whole career. And as a football coach myself, judging that he doesn't have a very strong arm, and he is not very accurate. That's my documentation. Game film, playing football for ten years, and coaching for the past 5.

Next, Elway was not a good QB in his second year. 70's is a bad QB rating

Lovie did say that that he liked Grossman. Until he realized Grossman couldn't do it. Then he liked Orton. Then he realized Orton couldn't do it.

Neither Cutler or Orton were successful. But we had at least a chance with Cutler. We are completely screwed with Orton at QB

[CoachChaz]

We trade a highly skilled losing QB for a thinking QB with a winning recird and we're screwed.


Am I seriously the ONLY one that doesnt follow that logic?

[topscribe]

Am I witnessing top defend orton over Cutler?

No, Cutler is the better QB in terms of skills. But McDaniels runs a "system."
I believe Orton will get along better with McDaniels. Therefore, Orton may well
have better success within McDaniels' system than Cutler would have had,
simply because Cutler may have rebelled, anyway.

Cutler wants to sling 'em. He will do better in Chicago's . . . *ahem* . . .
"system" than Orton had because he is better at running for his life and
squeezing passes into receivers who can't get separation.

But that's Chicago. There, I don't care. Here, I do. Orton may well excel in
this system. I will go so far as to say he probably will, judging from his
performance last year with Chicago's pathetic supporting cast. And I will
repeat: I believe Orton is a better QB than Cassell and will prove it this year,
if he's given the chance.

-----

[BigAL56]

We trade a highly skilled losing QB for a thinking QB with a winning recird and we're screwed.


Am I seriously the ONLY one that doesnt follow that logic?


The thinking QB had a better team than Denver to play with.

Cutler is the only reason we won anything last year.

How do we improve by bringing in a less talented QB that only won because of his defense last year?

[roomemp]

The thinking QB had a better team than Denver to play with.

Cutler is the only reason we won anything last year.

How do we improve by bringing in a less talented QB that only won because of his defense last year?


Cutler was not the reason why we won games last year. I give a lot of the credit to Shanny.

Cutler is a super talent, but you can't sit there and say he alone won us 8 games. Thats just crazy talk. He probably won us 2 or 3 games. On the flip side, he probably cost us 2 or 3 games.

[topscribe]

lol, really?

Okay, I don't know what documentation you are refferring to. But the documentation I have is watching Orton his whole career. And as a football coach myself, judging that he doesn't have a very strong arm, and he is not very accurate. That's my documentation. Game film, playing football for ten years, and coaching for the past 5.

Next, Elway was not a good QB in his second year. 70's is a bad QB rating

Lovie did say that that he liked Grossman. Until he realized Grossman couldn't do it. Then he liked Orton. Then he realized Orton couldn't do it.

Neither Cutler or Orton were successful. But we had at least a chance with Cutler. We are completely screwed with Orton at QB

I don't know where you coach, but you are not the only coach here. Did you
notice the user name CoachChaz? We also have another coach whom I
respect very much among us: Dean. I respect them because they base their
opinions on facts and figures and can document their arguments.

Anyway, I guess you missed that what attracted Purdue to Orton in the first
place was Orton's arm strength. Yesterday, I watched all 65 of Orton's
highlight clips at the NFL Video Galleries. This is where I learned that Orton
has a very strong arm. What you have to say out of your head does not
impress me. Now, if you have something to back it up in the form of
documentation, I'll listen.

Until then, thanks for playing . . . :coffee:

-----

[roomemp]

I don't know where you coach, but you are not the only coach here. Did you
notice the user name CoachChaz? We also have another coach whom I
respect very much among us: Dean. I respect them because they base their
opinions on facts and figures and can document their arguments.

Anyway, I guess you missed that what attracted Purdue to Orton in the first
place was Orton's arm strength. Yesterday, I watched all 65 of Orton's
highlight clips at the NFL Video Galleries. This is where I learned that Orton
has a very strong arm. What you have to say out of your head does not
impress me. Now, if you have something to back it up in the form of
documentation, I'll listen.

Until then, thanks for playing . . . :coffee:

-----

Don't tread on me indeed :salute:

[NightTrainLayne]

lol, really?

Okay, I don't know what documentation you are refferring to. But the documentation I have is watching Orton his whole career. And as a football coach myself, judging that he doesn't have a very strong arm, and he is not very accurate. That's my documentation. Game film, playing football for ten years, and coaching for the past 5.

Next, Elway was not a good QB in his second year. 70's is a bad QB rating

Lovie did say that that he liked Grossman. Until he realized Grossman couldn't do it. Then he liked Orton. Then he realized Orton couldn't do it.

Neither Cutler or Orton were successful. But we had at least a chance with Cutler. We are completely screwed with Orton at QB

Elway's CAREER passer's rating was below 80. If 79.6 isn't good, then Elways CAREER wasn't good. .. .nope, I'm not buying that.

[BigAL56]

Elway's CAREER passer's rating was below 80. If 79.6 isn't good, then Elways CAREER wasn't good. .. .nope, I'm not buying that.

Elway wasn't that good until 1993. That was the year he turned it around. The years before that really hurt him. If he stopped his career before that, no one would remember him today. Post '93? All above 85, that's really, really good

[BigAL56]

I don't know where you coach, but you are not the only coach here. Did you
notice the user name CoachChaz? We also have another coach whom I
respect very much among us: Dean. I respect them because they base their
opinions on facts and figures and can document their arguments.

Anyway, I guess you missed that what attracted Purdue to Orton in the first
place was Orton's arm strength. Yesterday, I watched all 65 of Orton's
highlight clips at the NFL Video Galleries. This is where I learned that Orton
has a very strong arm. What you have to say out of your head does not
impress me. Now, if you have something to back it up in the form of
documentation, I'll listen.

Until then, thanks for playing . . . :coffee:

-----

I'm not saying anyone else are stupid. You just asked my documentation, and it was my evaluation of game film. Go evaluate his deep ball, come back and let's talk about it

[BigAL56]

PS. You watched highlight clips. Those are his best throws. Watch his games and you'll see the consistency as an issue. He made some great throws in those highlights. But he can't hit the deep ball...misses way to much. And he has some accuracy issues

You can't evaluate based on highlight film

[getlynched47]

ummmmmmmmmmmm the Broncos records since 2006

9-7
7-9
8-8

Thats not mediocre????????????????

No mediocre is what the Lions, Rams, and Raiders have been...

[NightTrainLayne]

Elway wasn't that good until 1993. That was the year he turned it around. The years before that really hurt him. If he stopped his career before that, no one would remember him today. Post '93? All above 85, that's really, really good

I haven't double-checked the numbers but I believe that you are right. The thing that leaps out at me though, is that Elway made three SB appearances all prior to '93, with a ton of playoff wins. . ..

[BigAL56]

I haven't double-checked the numbers but I believe that you are right. The thing that leaps out at me though, is that Elway made three SB appearances all prior to '93, with a ton of playoff wins. . ..

Yea, he just didn't play all that great. He was irresponsible with the football.

[getlynched47]

However you felt about Jay Cutler, there is no debate in the NFL about the importance of franchise quarterbacks.

The past five Super Bowl champion quarterbacks are Ben Roethlisberger, Eli Manning, Peyton Manning, Ben Roethlisberger and Tom Brady. Franchise quarterbacks all.

A Super Bowl has been won twice in recent years by mediocre quarterbacks — Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer — but they played with two of the best defenses in NFL history. The Broncos will not be accused of that anytime soon.

The only important question now is whether Josh McDaniels understands this.

Best part of the entire article. The only safe time to ship out a franchise player is if you're set on the opposite side of the ball. We didnt have a defense in tact, and now we dont know how much of a decline our offense will take without Cutler.

[LoyalSoldier]

I haven't double-checked the numbers but I believe that you are right. The thing that leaps out at me though, is that Elway made three SB appearances all prior to '93, with a ton of playoff wins. . ..

His defenses played a little better than Cutler's ever did. The year he had a miserable defense was one of the years he had a losing season.