PDA

View Full Version : Are you happy with the Bronco's Offensive Line right now?



sneakers
03-13-2012, 05:50 PM
(Enough talking about quarterbacks!!! :mad: )

Are you happy with the development of the O-line last season and see a bright future for this unit or do you think some changes should be made?


edit: holy poops! I didn't make a troll thread!....must be maturing before everyone's eyes.

Northman
03-13-2012, 05:53 PM
Personally for me yes. While they still need to grow a bit together i think the biggest issue is what is going on behind center. When Cutler was here we had no issues like we have had with Orton or Tebow. A QB who is decisive and has a quick release saves a young Oline from having to keep the defense at bay for days. But the Oline does have some work to do on their own as well, especially with consistency with getting some push for the running game.

wayninja
03-13-2012, 05:55 PM
As a whole I think they have definitely been getting better. But there's still a long way to go. The protection in the last game against NE was beyond abysmal.

NightTerror218
03-13-2012, 05:57 PM
No, I think Walton and Beadles could be upgraded but will do great for depth. Walton is considered by many the worst center in the league. Beadles did do go in some run blocking. Too many missed assignments through the season, I am not talking about Tebow running until someone finds him. I mean unblocked ran straight down QBs throat (Orton and Tebow). Always right down the middle. They were bitches to the Pats that last game. They could not hold back a fly.

@North, quick release comes with experience at reading the defense and where they are coming and actually have someone to throw it too. Too many times we had MAX PROTECTION who was he going to throw it to? WR in middle of routes or the TE/RB blocking? Either McCoy had to confidence that Tebow could make the bread and butter pass of the QB which is the quick screen pass or they were not called. Either way they just were not happening.

Northman
03-13-2012, 06:01 PM
@North, quick release comes with experience at reading the defense and where they are coming and actually have someone to throw it too. Too many times we had MAX PROTECTION who was he going to throw it to? WR in middle of routes or the TE/RB blocking? Either McCoy had to confidence that Tebow could make the bread and butter pass of the QB which is the quick screen pass or they were not called. Either way they just were not happening.

Unlike many, i have zero problems with our wideouts. Considering i watched many passes go way off target i can see how they could not build any chemistry with the inconsistency. And while experience is necessary you still see what type of QB you have from the word go. Cutler, Brady, Manning, Elway, all showed it early on in their careers. And while i understand that Tebow is a "project" more than any other QB it certainly puts WAY more pressure on the Oline when you have a QB who is struggling. If we sign Manning i would have NO doubt the line would look much better and perform better.

jhildebrand
03-13-2012, 06:06 PM
Beadles just isn't there for me. He is consistently on his arse in the backfield. The guy at goalline is terrible. Starting to think of him as good back up material.

Joel
03-13-2012, 07:27 PM
No, I think Walton and Beadles could be upgraded but will do great for depth. Walton is considered by many the worst center in the league. Beadles did do go in some run blocking. Too many missed assignments through the season, I am not talking about Tebow running until someone finds him. I mean unblocked ran straight down QBs throat (Orton and Tebow). Always right down the middle. They were bitches to the Pats that last game. They could not hold back a fly.
They were the Pats' bitches BOTH games, and not just in pass defence. Balls fumble in the second quarter happened because two guys hit him about half a yard past the line of scrimmage; one took out his legs while the other took out the ball, then a third (Ninkovich) fell on it. My only hope at this stage is that Harris' back can hold up all year and Franklin turns into a much better G than he has been a T.

Meanwhile, Clady was constantly called for holding; I'm hoping that's because his leg injury never fully healed and he'll be back to Pro Bowl form next year, but there's not guarantee.

Kuper was probably our best pass blocker and best lineman overall, but he finished the season with a devastating injury of his own and may never be the same, though I'm also hopeful he bounces back well.

Franklin was a rookie, but an unimpressive one protecting our lefty QBs blindside. I can only hope he's MUCH better next year.

That's a heckuva lot of "hope" I'm depending on to make our line even adequate, and we still have a big hole in the middle in the form of a very poor LG and C; if Kuper's not 100% we have NO interior line.

So, no, I'm not at all happy with our offensive line right now; how could I be? We had the most rushing yards in the league (but not the highest average) because we ran an obscene amount of the time and our starting back and QB are big, powerful runners who break tackles and move piles, not because our line blocked well. Against the pass, our QB spent far too much time running from necessity rather than choice.

SmilinAssasSin27
03-13-2012, 07:50 PM
We will draft a Guard with our first pick. And maybe with our 2nd as well.

If we can sign a Safety, a DT and a MLB, which clearly seems to be what we are looking to, expect this to be a "keep Manning alive" draft.

iLands
03-13-2012, 08:04 PM
I agree with Joel.

I'm not happy at all with our O-Line and will be disappointed if we don't make moves in FA and the draft.

If we break the bank for someone, do it for an elite O-Line player.

BroncoStud
03-13-2012, 09:46 PM
Clady underachieved.
Beadles sucked.
Walton sucked.
Kuper is solid.
Franklin was OK.

I would REALLY like to see us bring in a stud upgrade but who knows. They should be better next year given more time together.

Canmore
03-13-2012, 09:54 PM
Clady underachieved.
Beadles sucked.
Walton sucked.
Kuper is solid.
Franklin was OK.

I would REALLY like to see us bring in a stud upgrade but who knows. They should be better next year given more time together.

Pretty much sums it up. Late in the season, I thought Walton sucked a little less than Beadles. How's that for a ringing endorsement?

WARHORSE
03-13-2012, 11:23 PM
Orlando was a mauler like nobodies business but Id like to see him at guard.
Kupe is solid as long as he makes a complete recovery.
I dont care for Walton.
Beadles may be better at center for us.

Clady will be fine with Peyton under center.

If Walton and Beadles dont kill it this, their third year, get rid of em.

rationalfan
03-13-2012, 11:34 PM
This is a tough topic for me. I really don't watch the Oline closely. But they never look as bad as some people here make them out to be. Makes me wonder if the people are negative folk who nitpick every minor deficiency or simply parrot the chorus that someone else started.

Or maybe the Oline is as bad as some say? I don't know.

But it doesn't seem like the team's biggest deficiency. Not even close. And both the Oline and receivers seem to have been victimized by some of tebow's common mistakes.

Joel
03-14-2012, 08:38 AM
We will draft a Guard with our first pick. And maybe with our 2nd as well.

If we can sign a Safety, a DT and a MLB, which clearly seems to be what we are looking to, expect this to be a "keep Manning alive" draft.
IMHO, we should do that whatever happens with Manning or any other QB; the need to protect Mannings fragile aging body and/or give Tebow security to develop only underscore the need that will remain until addressed whoever's under center. Without a solid line we just end up debating why the all important "skill" players suck—and keep debating it because we're ignoring the real problem. Best of all, there's a really good chance that even if we manage to get an elite "skill" player he'll fail to win games by himself, get booed out of town, then be a Pro Bowler for someone else.

Not trying to point any fingers, but I'm perplexed by how many people seem to want half a dozen elite pass rushers but think one decent tackle sufficient to stop them, if they ever think about it at all. Or want a shifty, blazing 2000 yard back but never consider the pulling guards and downfield blockers needed to make that a reality. Zimmerman, Nalen, Schlereth, Jones and Habib did more to make a Broncos fan than Elway, Davis or even Rod Smith and Eddie Mac, because I knew that stellar line would ensure success whoever was playing around them. It's depressing to see how far Denver has fallen.

Like the focus on acquisitions, man, though I'd still prefer to get a shutdown CB and move Champ to safety; that could solve two problems with one player, and if Harris is as good or better next year as last year we could actually have an elite secondary instead of the Swiss cheese we have now. Coverage sacks FTW. ;)

Ravage!!!
03-14-2012, 10:14 AM
I think our OL did a fantastic job considering the situation they were put in. I think its highly underrated around here, and blieve our OL is much better than most here believe.

Northman
03-14-2012, 10:27 AM
I think our OL did a fantastic job considering the situation they were put in. I think its highly underrated around here, and blieve our OL is much better than most here believe.

Indeed.

In the postseason alone they performed better than the Saints, Steelers, Niners, Ravens and Giants.

In the regular season they were ranked 23rd but not near as bad as the Bears, etc.

rationalfan
03-14-2012, 10:29 AM
Like the focus on acquisitions, man, though I'd still prefer to get a shutdown CB and move Champ to safety; that could solve two problems with one player, and if Harris is as good or better next year as last year we could actually have an elite secondary instead of the Swiss cheese we have now. Coverage sacks FTW. ;)

i don't get this. champ's still a top-ten CB in the league; top five on his good days. why would you make a guy who's in the top third of his position play a new spot on the D? i understand the logic of moving him, but this all feels rather premature; wait until he's struggling, at least.

broncofaninfla
03-14-2012, 10:32 AM
No, we weren't able to run until we went with the double tight end with the additional threat of Tebow running the ball. The base offensive line with Orton blew chunks at running the ball. Beadles is at best a depth guy and Walton isn't much better.

BigDaddyBronco
03-14-2012, 10:33 AM
I think the OLine is decent in run blocking, but when they deal with a heavy interior rush they get blown up. Clady also was not as dominate as he has been in the past. Franklin was pretty good for a rookie, but struggled at times as a pass protector. Kuper was solid for the most part, but you have to wonder how he'll come back after the injury.

If we get Peyton, I wouldn't mind seeing us get Saturday for a season just for the comfort factor for Manning, and I would like a new guard (either moving Franklin and getting a RT, or get a new LG). I wouldn't totally give up on Beadles and Walton, but if they could be back-ups it would help with depth. Beadles can play G or RT, so he is more valuable than Walton at this point.

ShooterJM
03-14-2012, 10:48 AM
When Cutler was here we had no issues like we have had with Orton or Tebow.

So let me ask this, who was the center for Cutler and who was the center for Orton/Tebow?




I've been pretty clearly not happy about the Oline. They're average in run blocking and just plain bad in pass blocking.

Northman
03-14-2012, 10:49 AM
So let me ask this, who was the center for Cutler and who was the center for Orton/Tebow?

So your going to lay all the woes on one guy on the line? lmao um ok.

catfish
03-14-2012, 11:00 AM
http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/22/ranking-the-2011-offensive-lines-part-1/

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/23/ranking-the-2011-offensive-lines-part-2/

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/who-protects-manning-in-denver

ShooterJM
03-14-2012, 11:07 AM
No, I think most of the line needs to be upgraded. I pointed out center specifically because you mentioned the problem was "behind center". The fact is that the center position is generally the "QB" of the line, calling out adjustments in first line protection based on the alignment of the D-line, etc. From Cutler to Orton/Tebow we went from an All Pro center to a guy who at BEST is average.

Sacks from holding the ball too long are on the QB. Sacks from multiple defenders running free while rushing 4 (when we're in max protect) means the line sucks.

Northman
03-14-2012, 11:36 AM
http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/22/ranking-the-2011-offensive-lines-part-1/

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/23/ranking-the-2011-offensive-lines-part-2/

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/who-protects-manning-in-denver


Yea yea, im taking my sources dircectly from NFL.com. Not by 2nd rate parties.

NightTerror218
03-14-2012, 11:39 AM
Yea yea, im taking my sources dircectly from NFL.com. Not by 2nd rate parties.

do you have a link to your sources?

Cat you are great with stats. Do you have Mcgahees yards after contact?

NightTerror218
03-14-2012, 11:40 AM
http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/22/ranking-the-2011-offensive-lines-part-1/

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/23/ranking-the-2011-offensive-lines-part-2/

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/who-protects-manning-in-denver

Over several sites Broncos OL is a the bottom of the league. Only some people think it was actually good.

Northman
03-14-2012, 11:44 AM
do you have a link to your sources?



For the postseason. Eli was sacked the most out of all QB's in the postseason.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&role=TM&offensiveStatisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&tabSeq=2&qualified=true


For the regular season.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&role=TM&offensiveStatisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&season=2011&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=true&Submit=Go

NightTerror218
03-14-2012, 11:51 AM
For the postseason. Eli was sacked the most out of all QB's in the postseason.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&role=TM&offensiveStatisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&tabSeq=2&qualified=true


For the regular season.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&role=TM&offensiveStatisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&season=2011&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=true&Submit=Go

This only takes into account rushing and QB sacks/hits. does not take in account pressure where there were throw aways. Does not take into account missed assignments. Which some other sites take into account when looking at the OL.

We also had the most negative plays and we were in 2 less games then the Giants and Pats. Tied in 4th for sacks.

Regular season ranked 23rd. And had the most neg plays up the middle (weak point of our OL).

Northman
03-14-2012, 11:56 AM
This only takes into account rushing and QB sacks/hits. does not take in account pressure where there were throw aways. Does not take into account missed assignments. Which some other sites take into account when looking at the OL.

We also had the most negative plays and we were in 2 less games then the Giants and Pats. Tied in 4th for sacks.

Regular season ranked 23rd. And had the most neg plays up the middle (weak point of our OL).


Thats because "pressure" is subjective and dependent on how long the QB holds onto the ball, Oline blowing assignments etc. To say that anything outside of sacks and hits equates to "proof" the Oline sucks is disingenous. We can go all day and debate what is the direct result of pressure but that does not mean its based off poor Oline play. While i know there is a little of both, from my personal observations i see the bigger problem being with the QB in question.

NightTerror218
03-14-2012, 12:05 PM
Thats because "pressure" is subjective and dependent on how long the QB holds onto the ball, Oline blowing assignments etc. To say that anything outside of sacks and hits equates to "proof" the Oline sucks is disingenous. We can go all day and debate what is the direct result of pressure but that does not mean its based off poor Oline play. While i know there is a little of both, from my personal observations i see the bigger problem being with the QB in question.

While you use to be subjective and look more into things. You seem to have "Tebow" blinders on now. Can you see no good out of him. Any offensive problem is Tebows fault? Was it not his second year? Did the OL look horrible before he took over as starter? Did he not break tackles and still gain positive yards? He also held on too long in the pocket waiting for that perfect window to throw. I bet a lot of young QBs do that along with also throwing a high number of ints thinking they can get into tight windows.

You say you saw lots of QB issues. I saw a lot of flaws in the OL. When the QB gets hit right after receiving the ball in the shot gun. That is not the QBs fault. Several times in the last Pats game. He barely got the ball and had to tuck it for an incoming hit. No chance to pas.

BigDaddyBronco
03-14-2012, 12:08 PM
That playoff game against the Pats was reason enough for me to want to fix the OLine. They were abysmal against the pass rush and couldn't run the ball either. Some of that was McCoy, some was Tebow, but a lot of it was the OLine.

NightTerror218
03-14-2012, 12:10 PM
That playoff game against the Pats was reason enough for me to want to fix the OLine. They were abysmal against the pass rush and couldn't run the ball either. Some of that was McCoy, some was Tebow, but a lot of it was the OLine.

IMO that was not the first time some of those issues arose.

ShooterJM
03-14-2012, 12:12 PM
Team Total Neg Sacks Passes Running Plays Total Plays Pass % Run % Sack % Neg % Crappy Oline %
1 New York Giants 8 11 163 112 275 59.27% 40.73% 6.75% 7.14% 6.91%
2 Baltimore Ravens 3 8 63 62 125 50.40% 49.60% 12.70% 4.84% 8.80%
3 San Francisco 49ers 3 7 68 50 118 57.63% 42.37% 10.29% 6.00% 8.47%
4 Denver Broncos 11 5 47 74 121 38.84% 61.16% 10.64% 14.86% 13.22%
5 Pittsburgh Steelers 0 5 40 23 63 63.49% 36.51% 12.50% 0.00% 7.94%
6 New Orleans Saints 4 5 106 50 156 67.95% 32.05% 4.72% 8.00% 5.77%
7 Cincinnati Bengals 2 4 42 19 61 68.85% 31.15% 9.52% 10.53% 9.84%
8 Green Bay Packers 0 4 46 23 69 66.67% 33.33% 8.70% 0.00% 5.80%
9 New England Patriots 8 3 111 80 191 58.12% 41.88% 2.70% 10.00% 5.76%
10 Atlanta Falcons 3 2 41 21 62 66.13% 33.87% 4.88% 14.29% 8.06%
11 Houston Texans 1 2 55 63 118 46.61% 53.39% 3.64% 1.59% 2.54%
12 Detroit Lions 1 0 43 10 53 81.13% 18.87% 0.00% 10.00% 1.89%

Northman
03-14-2012, 12:16 PM
While you use to be subjective and look more into things. You seem to have "Tebow" blinders on now.

Uh no, no blinders. I can assure you that.


Can you see no good out of him.

I have and have stated it a number of times on this board the positives that he has. Unlike most who think he can do no wrong and blame everyone else i happen to look at everything with an open mind and more objectively. Now with that said, in the long run i do not think Tebow will ever improve but thats an personal opinion. But ive stated a lot of times on here some of the things that i like about him as a player. People just choose not to remember it and paint me as a some kind of hater which is bogus. Just because i dont think he will make it does not make me a hater or anything of the like.


Any offensive problem is Tebows fault?

Who said that? Again, your reading way too much into it. But when we are talking about which part gets a brunt of the blame whether its the Oline vs the QB i say its the QB. But i also said the same thing when Orton was the starter yet i dont hear people defending him to no end.


Did the OL look horrible before he took over as starter?

Did the Oline have some issues like they did this year? Yes. Did they look horrible compared to Orton? No.


Did he not break tackles and still gain positive yards?

Yes, as i have addressed that as one of his positives. But if i wanted Tebow to be a running back i would ask the brass to make him one.


He also held on too long in the pocket waiting for that perfect window to throw. I bet a lot of young QBs do that along with also throwing a high number of ints thinking they can get into tight windows.

Hate to break it too you but the perfect window is almost non-existent in the NFL. You are playing against the best players in the NFL and QB's have a certain mark or spot they need to throw too. No QB whether its a HOF or rookie has the luxury to "wait" until the perfect window is open. This is why accuracy is so important the pro level.


You say you saw lots of QB issues. I saw a lot of flaws in the OL.

A difference of opinion.


When the QB gets hit right after receiving the ball in the shot gun. That is not the QBs fault. Several times in the last Pats game. He barely got the ball and had to tuck it for an incoming hit. No chance to pas.

One game does not make an entire year. While i have already stated the Oline has their own faults im talking as a whole. This senario you have laid out here is not what happened a majority of the time which is why i think the Oline is getting a bad rap because of Tebow's own weaknesses as a passer.

Northman
03-14-2012, 12:18 PM
That playoff game against the Pats was reason enough for me to want to fix the OLine. They were abysmal against the pass rush and couldn't run the ball either. Some of that was McCoy, some was Tebow, but a lot of it was the OLine.

In that particular game. Denver didnt match up well at all vs the Pats.

ShooterJM
03-14-2012, 12:19 PM
NFL.com is data, not analysis. My crappily formated post above is a quick analysis. Broncos had the 3rd highest sack RATE.

So maybe it's the QB right?

Well the broncos had the highest negative rushing play rate as well.

Combine the raw number of sacks and negative rushing plays and that'll give you a raw "crappy O line play number. Divide by number of plays and that's your crappy o-line %. At any given time during the playoffs the offensive line had a 13.22% chance of allowing a crappy play. Nearly double the average.

Northman
03-14-2012, 12:22 PM
NFL.com is data, not analysis. My crappily formated post above is a quick analysis. Broncos had the 3rd highest sack RATE.

So maybe it's the QB right?

Well the broncos had the highest negative rushing play rate as well.

Combine the raw number of sacks and negative rushing plays and that'll give you a raw "crappy O line play number. Divide by number of plays and that's your crappy o-line %. At any given time during the playoffs the offensive line had a 13.22% chance of allowing a crappy play. Nearly double the average.


Well, we've already addressed (or i have) that the Oline at times got ZERO push in the running game. But to address your other point there were MANY times in which Tebow would hold onto the ball and run around in the backfield and eventually take a sack because he would not get rid of the ball.

NightTerror218
03-14-2012, 12:22 PM
Uh no, no blinders. I can assure you that.



I have and have stated it a number of times on this board the positives that he has. Unlike most who think he can do no wrong and blame everyone else i happen to look at everything with an open mind and more objectively. Now with that said, in the long run i do not think Tebow will ever improve but thats an personal opinion. But ive stated a lot of times on here some of the things that i like about him as a player. People just choose not to remember it and paint me as a some kind of hater which is bogus. Just because i dont think he will make it does not make me a hater or anything of the like.



Who said that? Again, your reading way too much into it. But when we are talking about which part gets a brunt of the blame whether its the Oline vs the QB i say its the QB. But i also said the same thing when Orton was the starter yet i dont hear people defending him to no end.



Did the Oline have some issues like they did this year? Yes. Did they look horrible compared to Orton? No.



Yes, as i have addressed that as one of his positives. But if i wanted Tebow to be a running back i would ask the brass to make him one.



Hate to break it too you but the perfect window is almost non-existent in the NFL. You are playing against the best players in the NFL and QB's have a certain mark or spot they need to throw too. No QB whether its a HOF or rookie has the luxury to "wait" until the perfect window is open. This is why accuracy is so important the pro level.



A difference of opinion.



One game does not make an entire year. While i have already stated the Oline has their own faults im talking as a whole. This senario you have laid out here is not what happened a majority of the time which is why i think the Oline is getting a bad rap because of Tebow's own weaknesses as a passer.

My biggest issue is 2 QBs same problem. Tebows flaws or not both QBs got hit a lot. One difference is with the change in QB and offense the rushing attack when through the roof. Whether that was because of a dual threat QB or improved OL, I would go with dual threat QB. I know the window does not exist, but I do believe that was what he was looking for that was why Elway told him to throw it. IMO it is a young QB looking for perfect window. Once he gets better (more confidence may it be to make the throws) he will do it. But until then he will keep holding onto it too long.

Also, too often did we have max protection with TE/RB blocking also. Which could be in part why the OL looked good at times.

Northman
03-14-2012, 12:28 PM
My biggest issue is 2 QBs same problem. Tebows flaws or not both QBs got hit a lot. One difference is with the change in QB and offense the rushing attack when through the roof. Whether that was because of a dual threat QB or improved OL, I would go with dual threat QB. I know the window does not exist, but I do believe that was what he was looking for that was why Elway told him to throw it. IMO it is a young QB looking for perfect window. Once he gets better (more confidence may it be to make the throws) he will do it. But until then he will keep holding onto it too long.

Exactly. But whether he is young or not does not mean the Oline is at fault a majority of the time. No QB can expect an Oline (whether bad or good) to hold off a defense for that long. If your QB is indecisive and holds onto the ball too long that puts way too much pressure on the Oline and thus they will eventually give up the ghost. And while this does not happen EVERYTIME that Tebow took snaps this is what i saw a majority of the time when watching the games.


Also, too often did we have max protection with TE/RB blocking also. Which could be in part why the OL looked good at times.

Sure, i believe this. Its also a reason why a poor Chicago Oline looked better and gave Cutler more time to throw. Again, the Oline has some issues but not near the amount that people want to claim. The Colts Oline outside of a couple of guys isnt all that great. Painter was getting smashed around time and time again but with Manning it wasnt as nears as much.

NightTerror218
03-14-2012, 12:34 PM
Exactly. But whether he is young or not does not mean the Oline is at fault a majority of the time. No QB can expect an Oline (whether bad or good) to hold off a defense for that long. If your QB is indecisive and holds onto the ball too long that puts way too much pressure on the Oline and thus they will eventually give up the ghost. And while this does not happen EVERYTIME that Tebow took snaps this is what i saw a majority of the time when watching the games.



Sure, i believe this. Its also a reason why a poor Chicago Oline looked better and gave Cutler more time to throw. Again, the Oline has some issues but not near the amount that people want to claim. The Colts Oline outside of a couple of guys isnt all that great. Painter was getting smashed around time and time again but with Manning it wasnt as nears as much.

Well the OL is considered a factor for Manning. So depending on what he sees with ours, could tip the scale. He could also tell the team, conditions for me signing are.......OL help, I run offense, I need these positions addresses ect, ect.

G_Money
03-14-2012, 12:50 PM
I'm just gonna go with "no."

Of course, my answer on whether the Broncos will do anything about is currently also "no."

Unless we sign Manning, and then Saturday might be our center. Which doesn't help me with my LG and RT conundrum.

~G

NightTerror218
03-14-2012, 01:09 PM
I'm just gonna go with "no."

Of course, my answer on whether the Broncos will do anything about is currently also "no."

Unless we sign Manning, and then Saturday might be our center. Which doesn't help me with my LG and RT conundrum.

~G

I think LG and RG are solid right now.

ShooterJM
03-14-2012, 01:09 PM
Does Tebow need to get better at reads? Sure, but also realize that tebow's average time from snap to sack 3.4 seconds. Including the times he holds the ball WAY too long.

To put that in perspective. In the playoffs the Broncos gave up 5 sacks. On least one he held the ball way too long, I clocked it at almost 7 seconds. (not scientific at all, just DVR rewind). That's on him 100%, however, that means his other 4 sacks averaged 2.5 seconds. Anything under 2.8 seconds is on the O Line. If he had one other sack at the average (or above) then that 60% of his sacks are basically unblocked.

Northman
03-14-2012, 01:13 PM
To put that in perspective. In the playoffs the Broncos gave up 5 sacks. On least one he held the ball way too long, I clocked it at almost 7 seconds. (not scientific at all, just DVR rewind). That's on him 100%, however, that means his other 4 sacks averaged 2.5 seconds. Anything under 2.8 seconds is on the O Line. If he had one other sack at the average (or above) then that 60% of his sacks are basically unblocked.

But in one game he was playing one of the best defenses in the league and in the other both he and the Oline simply melted down.

NightTerror218
03-14-2012, 01:19 PM
But in one game he was playing one of the best defenses in the league and in the other both he and the Oline simply melted down.

Hard to have a melt down if the OL had a melt down. Tebow was pounded into the ground against the Pats. he did not have a melt down. How would you like Wilfork and another OL sit on your chest/face?

catfish
03-14-2012, 01:22 PM
do you have a link to your sources?

Cat you are great with stats. Do you have Mcgahees yards after contact?

695 yards after contact according to pff stats

NightTerror218
03-14-2012, 01:24 PM
695 yards after contact according to pff stats

Thank you sir.

So over half his yards this season were after contact. I think that is a good chunk. I thought he plowed through people while not getting great blocks. But that was me I wanted to see how stats stood up to it.

catfish
03-14-2012, 01:28 PM
Thank you sir.

So over half his yards this season were after contact. I think that is a good chunk. I thought he plowed through people while not getting great blocks. But that was me I wanted to see how stats stood up to it.

as a follow up he had the 9th highest total yards after contact, but only the 19th total yards after contact/attempt. PFF ranked him 9th overall when just looking at running, 19the when receiveing is added in

Northman
03-14-2012, 01:30 PM
Hard to have a melt down if the OL had a melt down. Tebow was pounded into the ground against the Pats. he did not have a melt down. How would you like Wilfork and another OL sit on your chest/face?


Im not into the boy/boy thing.

NightTerror218
03-14-2012, 01:31 PM
Im not into the boy/boy thing.

Well Tebow is still not our of the clear in that aspect. So far no reports of him liking woman.

G_Money
03-14-2012, 02:15 PM
I think LG and RG are solid right now.

Beadles is the worst player on the OL, and Kuper snapped his lower leg so badly his foot was facing the wrong way.

I guess I'm not as confident in their prowess as you are.

~G

NightTerror218
03-14-2012, 02:18 PM
Beadles is the worst player on the OL, and Kuper snapped his lower leg so badly his foot was facing the wrong way.

I guess I'm not as confident in their prowess as you are.

~G

Oops typo, I ment LT, and RT.

I hope Kuper comes back though, original form.

G_Money
03-14-2012, 02:30 PM
LOL okay. Left tackle I'm all right with even though he had his worst year as a pro.

Our RT can't pass-block. Like, he's terrible at it. He's a run-blocking demon.

If we move him to LG and get a new RT to keep either Tebow or Manning upright (cuz it's Tebow's blind side and Manning needs to not get wrecked this year) then I'm perfectly satisfied with our line.

Dream OL scenario? Saturday comes in to pull a Weigmann, making Walton an extremely capable backup. Franklin moves to LG where he helps Clady run-block more effectively on that side, and Beadles is now the great backup he should be. We draft a RT like Martin from Stanford should he drop.

Suddenly we'd have one of the best OLs in the league, run or pass blocking, or QB doesn't die, and we're set on that trench for several years. If we wanted to add some DTs in FA we could have a couple of well-stocked trenches.

But that's not gonna happen - our guys will stay where they are. I'm very interested to see our plan, though. Very.

~G

Joel
03-14-2012, 11:40 PM
i don't get this. champ's still a top-ten CB in the league; top five on his good days. why would you make a guy who's in the top third of his position play a new spot on the D? i understand the logic of moving him, but this all feels rather premature; wait until he's struggling, at least.
Well, I wouldn't, but even if I grant top ten/top five on a good day, neither is top three. Maybe he was on the field too and/or having to cover for Badman and our awful safeties too much, but he didn't look the same the last half of the season. A couple years ago he'd have made that pick at the back of the endzone against Pitt, and instead of Roethlisbergers TD on the next play the game ends right there.

The biggest thing is that if we just pick up a good safety we'll STILL have to worry about when Champ runs out of gas and can't be an elite corner anymore in a year or two. Then we have to get a CB anyway and pay him AND Champ AND whoever we pickup as a safety. If we pickup the CB and move Champ to safety now we kill two birds with one stone, and if Harris is ready to start we have a solid secondary.

Not that has much to do with the line, but I've stated my feelings there amply. McGahee getting half his yards after he got hit does not surprise me at all; it also (partly) explains why he's banged up so much and our running game disintegrates when he goes out for a breather. Could explain some of Morenos fragility, too, though I wouldn't want to be too firm about that.

Dzone
03-14-2012, 11:51 PM
Broncos offensive line is weak and porous

Joel
03-22-2012, 06:50 PM
I think our OL did a fantastic job considering the situation they were put in. I think its highly underrated around here, and blieve our OL is much better than most here believe.
Well, we now have a HoF QB and solid (starting) RB; I guess we'll find out how good our line is or isn't in about 5 months. Just remember: If Manning's carted off the field on multiple carts before Thanksgiving, I don't want to hear any garbage about how our line is STILL great and we're only 3-6 because he was washed up after last years injury. Not that I wish anyone, least of all our starting QB, any ill will, but he's never been mobile, and I think McGahee (whose best backup is probably Jeremiah Johnson) will get hit at the line as much as ever, so I'm frankly scared to death of how next season will go....

Cugel
03-23-2012, 12:02 AM
No, I think Walton and Beadles could be upgraded but will do great for depth. Walton is considered by many the worst center in the league. Beadles did do go in some run blocking. Too many missed assignments through the season, I am not talking about Tebow running until someone finds him. I mean unblocked ran straight down QBs throat (Orton and Tebow). Always right down the middle. They were bitches to the Pats that last game. They could not hold back a fly.

@North, quick release comes with experience at reading the defense and where they are coming and actually have someone to throw it too. Too many times we had MAX PROTECTION who was he going to throw it to? WR in middle of routes or the TE/RB blocking? Either McCoy had to confidence that Tebow could make the bread and butter pass of the QB which is the quick screen pass or they were not called. Either way they just were not happening.

That's why they wanted Jeff Saturday. Center was a big concern and Walton should not be starting. He's not a good center and center is key to the OL. Without a good one, the line sucks even if you have a great LT like the Broncos do in Clady. Zane Beadles wasn't great but is serviceable. I could see them taking a G or OT in the 2nd round and a CB. Or a DT (that's my fantasy -- I know I should get help).

Hopefully the OL will be better this year. At least they didn't lose anybody off their OL like they did Bunkley off their DL.

Cugel
03-23-2012, 12:11 AM
As for Saturday he'll be in Denver tomorrow. The Broncos will try and sign him then, but other teams are trying to grab him and he will command a top salary. Let's hope they get the job done because Walton is not an option as a starter next year.


Free agent C Jeff Saturday won't visit the Broncos until Friday.
Saturday has little incentive to rush his potential reunion with Peyton Manning since it could only hurt his negotiating position. He'll visit the Packers and Titans before heading to Denver. The Broncos remain Saturday's most likely landing spot, but any time a player takes a visit, there's a chance he won't leave. Mar 20 - 10:27 PM

No news that Saturday has signed with anybody yet so the Broncos will get their chance to land him.

bcbronc
03-23-2012, 01:44 AM
I wouldn't say I'm "happy" with our OL, but I am optimistic.

SpringsBroncoFan
03-23-2012, 02:43 AM
LOL okay. Left tackle I'm all right with even though he had his worst year as a pro.

Our RT can't pass-block. Like, he's terrible at it. He's a run-blocking demon.

If we move him to LG and get a new RT to keep either Tebow or Manning upright (cuz it's Tebow's blind side and Manning needs to not get wrecked this year) then I'm perfectly satisfied with our line.

Dream OL scenario? Saturday comes in to pull a Weigmann, making Walton an extremely capable backup. Franklin moves to LG where he helps Clady run-block more effectively on that side, and Beadles is now the great backup he should be. We draft a RT like Martin from Stanford should he drop.

Suddenly we'd have one of the best OLs in the league, run or pass blocking, or QB doesn't die, and we're set on that trench for several years. If we wanted to add some DTs in FA we could have a couple of well-stocked trenches.

But that's not gonna happen - our guys will stay where they are. I'm very interested to see our plan, though. Very.

~G

I've got Bobby Massie in my mock, 2nd round. I like him better than Adams and no way Martin falls (although I think Mayock said he might). Grant is too slow, Hills & Harris are lightweights. Clark is possible but he's the backup for Clady. Can't afford to draft Glenn in the 1st because we really need that top DT... Massie can play either T spot too, better at RT but the option is there for injuries. I've got Reyes 1st and then Mike Martin in the 3rd... yes, I went there this is the year for 2 DT's.

Just waiting for FA to get farther along so they don't blow up my mock again and again... lol

CoachChaz
03-23-2012, 08:14 AM
I've got Bobby Massie in my mock, 2nd round. I like him better than Adams and no way Martin falls (although I think Mayock said he might). Grant is too slow, Hills & Harris are lightweights. Clark is possible but he's the backup for Clady. Can't afford to draft Glenn in the 1st because we really need that top DT... Massie can play either T spot too, better at RT but the option is there for injuries. I've got Reyes 1st and then Mike Martin in the 3rd... yes, I went there this is the year for 2 DT's.

Just waiting for FA to get farther along so they don't blow up my mock again and again... lol

This is why I never make a mock.

Just out of curiosity, has it really ever occurred to people that a simpler action may be to coach up Franklin's pass blocking a bit? He's young and talented. Why write of the chance of him improving and spending another much needed draft pick or FA money when you can fix the issue internally

Joel
03-23-2012, 08:27 AM
Just out of curiosity, has it really ever occurred to people that a simpler action may be to coach up Franklin's pass blocking a bit? He's young and talented. Why write of the chance of him improving and spending another much needed draft pick or FA money when you can fix the issue internally
Peyton Mannings orthopedic surgeon could give you 98 million reasons. ;)

However, there's another, arguably better, reason: Franklin is the devastating irresistable run blocker Beadles is not, so adding an elite tackle and moving Franklin inside would fill two massive holes with a single player, always desirable in a League with finite roster and cap space. It's the same reason I'd rather add a shutdown corner and move Champ to safety instead of just adding an elite safety: This team has too many holes to fill one at a time. Replacing Franklin wouldn't mean cutting him; ideally, it would just mean making Beadles a backup, which sounds very good to me.

SpringsBroncoFan
03-23-2012, 10:18 AM
This is why I never make a mock.

Just out of curiosity, has it really ever occurred to people that a simpler action may be to coach up Franklin's pass blocking a bit? He's young and talented. Why write of the chance of him improving and spending another much needed draft pick or FA money when you can fix the issue internally

It has and I think Peyton can dump it... I just hope they don't try that approach with Beadles. I would be perfectly happy with Holmes later on in the draft but it wouldn't surprise me if they are taking the same approach with Grant. These are the things we don't know sitting here on the outside.

I have Reyes at 25 but it wouldn't surprise me if they took Zack Brown and if lucky, we only wind up with Wolfe or Randall later on. It will be interesting to see if history repeats...

vandammage13
03-23-2012, 12:00 PM
Jeff Saturday just signed with the Packers...

G_Money
03-23-2012, 12:51 PM
This is why I never make a mock.

Just out of curiosity, has it really ever occurred to people that a simpler action may be to coach up Franklin's pass blocking a bit? He's young and talented. Why write of the chance of him improving and spending another much needed draft pick or FA money when you can fix the issue internally

I guess for me I don't see the necessary skills to be a good pass-blocker at tackle. He doesn't seem to have the feet, he lunges too much, is easily out of position, and at times barely slows the opposing rusher. Maybe all that can improve in order for him to be an acceptable tackle, but in an offense predicated on a metric ton of passing it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to have a run-blocking RT. We've only got 3-ish years in our Peyton window. I wouldn't waste 33% of those years finding out if Franklin can keep Manning alive.

Teaching a rhino to wear roller skates seems to take a while. I'd rather have Franklin as a plus guard than a minus pass-blocking tackle. And especially since it looks like Walton is gonna be our center, I don't want Beadles next to him with both of them being chucked like lawn darts back in Peyton's face. Franklin was a guard in college who was made an emergency tackle due to dire need in his final season.

For me, it's like Kuper. Can he PLAY tackle? Sure. Should he play tackle on a Super Bowl contending team? Not for my money. And since I want an upgrade at guard too in order to shore up the middle, it works out.

We'll see how the Broncos feel about it this year. Right now it looks like the line we've got is the one we're going with, so I hope we find better depth at the very least.

~G

CoachChaz
03-23-2012, 12:57 PM
I guess for me I don't see the necessary skills to be a good pass-blocker at tackle. He doesn't seem to have the feet, he lunges too much, is easily out of position, and at times barely slows the opposing rusher. Maybe all that can improve in order for him to be an acceptable tackle, but in an offense predicated on a metric ton of passing it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to have a run-blocking RT. We've only got 3-ish years in our Peyton window. I wouldn't waste 33% of those years finding out if Franklin can keep Manning alive.

Teaching a rhino to wear roller skates seems to take a while. I'd rather have Franklin as a plus guard than a minus pass-blocking tackle. And especially since it looks like Walton is gonna be our center, I don't want Beadles next to him with both of them being chucked like lawn darts back in Peyton's face. Franklin was a guard in college who was made an emergency tackle due to dire need in his final season.

For me, it's like Kuper. Can he PLAY tackle? Sure. Should he play tackle on a Super Bowl contending team? Not for my money. And since I want an upgrade at guard too in order to shore up the middle, it works out.

We'll see how the Broncos feel about it this year. Right now it looks like the line we've got is the one we're going with, so I hope we find better depth at the very least.

~G

The changes can still be made. If they like Franklin at tackle, Koiser is out there. If they want to move him inside, guys like Bell are out there. Our line is still pretty young and I think improvement can happen. Yes...it needs to happen before Manning gets killed. I just have a hard time spending 3 draft picks on OL in the last 2 drafts just to go out and do it all over again.

It all comes down to what the coaches think about these guys and their progress.

SOCALORADO.
03-23-2012, 12:59 PM
Does anyone know the status of Kuper? Was there ligament and tendon damamge?
I thought it was just the broken bones. Yes?

Ziggy
03-23-2012, 01:14 PM
Does anyone know the status of Kuper? Was there ligament and tendon damamge?
I thought it was just the broken bones. Yes?

I heard Kuper on a radio interview last week. His rehab is coming along well and he will be 100% by training camp. He's thinking that he can make some of the later OTA's as well.

SpringsBroncoFan
03-23-2012, 01:15 PM
The changes can still be made. If they like Franklin at tackle, Koiser is out there. If they want to move him inside, guys like Bell are out there. Our line is still pretty young and I think improvement can happen. Yes...it needs to happen before Manning gets killed. I just have a hard time spending 3 draft picks on OL in the last 2 drafts just to go out and do it all over again.

It all comes down to what the coaches think about these guys and their progress.

This is why I was pissed about not jumping in on Winston, KC got a bargain price on him. I hope that didn't signal a desire to keep Franklin at RT.

Bell brings alot of questions... we already saw poor play from Clady after his knee issues. With Bell you have the same and also the question of whether he can actually succeed at RT... I don't think we'd want to shuffle T's...

I think the best FA option remaining is Geoff Schwartz, ex Panther. Elite size, good strength - just not the power of Franklin but with better footwork. You can just plug him in at G and still have the option to move him to RT if you need to.

CoachChaz
03-23-2012, 01:22 PM
This is why I was pissed about not jumping in on Winston, KC got a bargain price on him. I hope that didn't signal a desire to keep Franklin at RT.

Bell brings alot of questions... we already saw poor play from Clady after his knee issues. With Bell you have the same and also the question of whether he can actually succeed at RT... I don't think we'd want to shuffle T's...

I think the best FA option remaining is Geoff Schwartz, ex Panther. Elite size, good strength - just not the power of Franklin but with better footwork. You can just plug him in at G and still have the option to move him to RT if you need to.

I like Schwartz...but I guess I have a higher assessment of Bell than some. Him getting injured is what lead to Buffalo's downfall. They couldnt protect Fitz after that and it crumbled.

Ziggy
03-23-2012, 01:22 PM
The changes can still be made. If they like Franklin at tackle, Koiser is out there. If they want to move him inside, guys like Bell are out there. Our line is still pretty young and I think improvement can happen. Yes...it needs to happen before Manning gets killed. I just have a hard time spending 3 draft picks on OL in the last 2 drafts just to go out and do it all over again.
It all comes down to what the coaches think about these guys and their progress.

I see your point Coach but the number of draft picks you have spent on a position has no effect on who you draft next, especially when you're talking about a McDaniels draft. Walton and Beadles are bad lineman, period. Manning's quick release and decision making will make up for a lot of thier deficiencies, but in the end you just need to bring in more talented players if you want to win it all. Unfortunately Saturday was the last good center left on the free agent market. If the coaches thought that Walton was the answer, I doubt they would have offered Saturday a contract at all.

CoachChaz
03-23-2012, 01:29 PM
I see your point Coach but the number of draft picks you have spent on a position has no effect on who you draft next, especially when you're talking about a McDaniels draft. Walton and Beadles are bad lineman, period. Manning's quick release and decision making will make up for a lot of thier deficiencies, but in the end you just need to bring in more talented players if you want to win it all. Unfortunately Saturday was the last good center left on the free agent market. If the coaches thought that Walton was the answer, I doubt they would have offered Saturday a contract at all.

Cant blame Walton and Beadles on McD. Both were very highly rated linemen coming out of college.

Assuming they offered Saturday a contract, it obviously wasnt much of an effort. If they wanted him that badly, we definitely have the cap space to beat other offers for a 37 year old center

SOCALORADO.
03-23-2012, 01:39 PM
i heard kuper on a radio interview last week. His rehab is coming along well and he will be 100% by training camp. He's thinking that he can make some of the later ota's as well.

good news!

Ziggy
03-23-2012, 01:40 PM
At this point in his career it may not have been all about the money. It may have been about years, guarunteed money, family in the area, etc.etc.

TheReverend
03-23-2012, 01:44 PM
Anyone who reads this question and even ponders the option "yes" should be punched in the face.

SpringsBroncoFan
03-23-2012, 02:02 PM
I like Schwartz...but I guess I have a higher assessment of Bell than some. Him getting injured is what lead to Buffalo's downfall. They couldnt protect Fitz after that and it crumbled.

Agree on Bell, it's just hard to see us paying him good money while he's rehabbing...

SpringsBroncoFan
03-23-2012, 02:12 PM
I see your point Coach but the number of draft picks you have spent on a position has no effect on who you draft next, especially when you're talking about a McDaniels draft. Walton and Beadles are bad lineman, period. Manning's quick release and decision making will make up for a lot of thier deficiencies, but in the end you just need to bring in more talented players if you want to win it all. Unfortunately Saturday was the last good center left on the free agent market. If the coaches thought that Walton was the answer, I doubt they would have offered Saturday a contract at all.

I agree on Beadles but disagree on Walton... He's a smart little Mofo who just doesn't have the athletic ability of others. He's gained strength which was a weakness and he has alot of experience on everybody in this draft.

I think the only one who could unseat him in FA or draft is Konz. Molk is the only other one but he's more undersized and a huge injury risk waiting to happen.

Blake is a flash in the pan who's 26 yrs old. Jones isn't an upgrade. Brewster has size but not speed over him and he'll never catch up to JD's knowledge & experience. It may take a 3rd rounder to get him but the big problem is Peyton is only going to spend all his time with one center.

Cugel
03-23-2012, 06:44 PM
We will draft a Guard with our first pick. And maybe with our 2nd as well.

If we can sign a Safety, a DT and a MLB, which clearly seems to be what we are looking to, expect this to be a "keep Manning alive" draft.

You couldn't expect a rookie G to start in Peyton Manning's offense. It would take the kid a couple of years to learn the system and how to play in this league. Meanwhile they need veteran FAs.

SmilinAssasSin27
03-23-2012, 06:50 PM
You couldn't expect a rookie G to start in Peyton Manning's offense. It would take the kid a couple of years to learn the system and how to play in this league. Meanwhile they need veteran FAs.

If our current OGs suck, you sure as hell CAN put a good rookie in there. I'd rather have young talent rather than mediocre vets.

Cugel
03-23-2012, 06:51 PM
Peyton Mannings orthopedic surgeon could give you 98 million reasons. ;)

However, there's another, arguably better, reason: Franklin is the devastating irresistible run blocker Beadles is not, so adding an elite tackle and moving Franklin inside would fill two massive holes with a single player, always desirable in a League with finite roster and cap space. It's the same reason I'd rather add a shutdown corner and move Champ to safety instead of just adding an elite safety: This team has too many holes to fill one at a time. Replacing Franklin wouldn't mean cutting him; ideally, it would just mean making Beadles a backup, which sounds very good to me.

It all sounds good. But, where the hell are they going to find an "elite RT." They could draft one, but you can't start a rookie and expect him not to get beat regularly. See Franklin for examples.

Hopefully with another year of coaching this off-season Franklin will improve. I don't honestly see a better option at RT that's realistic at this point.

As for adding a "shut-down CB" same problem. Where in Hell do you expect to find one? FA CBs who are not exactly "shut-down" like Porter cost $4 million a year. Trying to add a #1 CB via FA is one of the most expensive things you can do (aside from trying to sign an elite pass-rushing DL or a starting LT or a franchise QB).

In an ideal world Denver would add a great RT, move Franklin inside to G, add a veteran C, add two or 3 stud DTs, add a "shut-down" #1 CB and move Champ to S. At that point our defense would be in the top 10 and Denver would be a favorite to win the SB.

This ain't remotely an "ideal world" and none of those things is going to happen. :coffee:

Cugel
03-23-2012, 06:56 PM
If our current OGs suck, you sure as hell CAN put a good rookie in there. I'd rather have young talent rather than mediocre vets.

You don't pick a G in the first round. 2nd or 3rd round G's might be great in a few years, but they are going to get beat regularly in their rookie year (like Franklin was). With Manning coming off 4 neck surgeries do you really want to trust the health of your $95 million QB to a rookie G?

Didn't think so. :coffee:

Cugel
03-23-2012, 07:04 PM
I guess for me I don't see the necessary skills to be a good pass-blocker at tackle. He doesn't seem to have the feet, he lunges too much, is easily out of position, and at times barely slows the opposing rusher. Maybe all that can improve in order for him to be an acceptable tackle, but in an offense predicated on a metric ton of passing it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to have a run-blocking RT. We've only got 3-ish years in our Peyton window. I wouldn't waste 33% of those years finding out if Franklin can keep Manning alive.

Teaching a rhino to wear roller skates seems to take a while. I'd rather have Franklin as a plus guard than a minus pass-blocking tackle. And especially since it looks like Walton is gonna be our center, I don't want Beadles next to him with both of them being chucked like lawn darts back in Peyton's face. Franklin was a guard in college who was made an emergency tackle due to dire need in his final season.

For me, it's like Kuper. Can he PLAY tackle? Sure. Should he play tackle on a Super Bowl contending team? Not for my money. And since I want an upgrade at guard too in order to shore up the middle, it works out.

We'll see how the Broncos feel about it this year. Right now it looks like the line we've got is the one we're going with, so I hope we find better depth at the very least.

~G

I've thought about this some more and I think the only way they can move Franklin is if they use their #1 pick on a RT. That COULD happen of course if they find somebody who they feel is a great prospect to move right in and start at RT.

But, that's a tall order. I think Franklin is as good as they are going to get at RT and they have a lot of other holes to fill as well.

Now that some of the Manning excitement has died down and we realistically assess this team they have a lot of defects when compared to the really elite teams like the Ravens, Steelers, Texans and Patriots.

Compare the '98 SB team to this one and there's hardly a position where the '98 Broncos player wouldn't start over the 2012 Broncos player outside Champ Bailey and maybe Doom or Von Miller (possible exception Peyton Manning if he's completely healthy).

I said "possible" as in "arguable" or "debatable".

For instance the Broncos have nobody to compare with Rod Smith, Ed McCaffrey, or Shannon Sharpe. And Clady doesn't really compare with HOF Gary Zimmerman.

SmilinAssasSin27
03-23-2012, 07:13 PM
You don't pick a G in the first round. 2nd or 3rd round G's might be great in a few years, but they are going to get beat regularly in their rookie year (like Franklin was). With Manning coming off 4 neck surgeries do you really want to trust the health of your $95 million QB to a rookie G?

Didn't think so. :coffee:

What an amazingly arrogant, yet incorrect response...

Iupati and Pouncey went 17 and 18 in 2010. Mike Pouncey went top 15 last year. Alex Mack #21 in 09. All highly touted and all solid from the gate.

do you wanna trust his health to some mediocre scrub like Ryan Harris?

I want a good player. Plenty of 1st round interior lineman have panned out. Otherwise...Franklin is a Tackle, so your point, or lack there of, makes zero sense.

bcbronc
03-23-2012, 07:15 PM
At this point, it seems safe to assume that EFX are relatively happy with their OL. There were some pretty good interior OL available, and the only one that even hadrumblings associated with DEN was Saturday...and it doesn't look like the interest there was too intense. They could still add someone in the draft, but like cugel said, you probably don't want to start a rookie in front of PM. Or at the least, you don't count on getting a rookie to come in and upgrade the OL...if upgrading was seen as a priority by EFX they probably at least kick the tires on a couple of the top UFAs.

SmilinAssasSin27
03-23-2012, 07:19 PM
At this point, it seems safe to assume that EFX are relatively happy with their OL. There were some pretty good interior OL available, and the only one that even hadrumblings associated with DEN was Saturday...and it doesn't look like the interest there was too intense. They could still add someone in the draft, but like cugel said, you probably don't want to start a rookie in front of PM. Or at the least, you don't count on getting a rookie to come in and upgrade the OL...if upgrading was seen as a priority by EFX they probably at least kick the tires on a couple of the top UFAs.

but...but...you HAVE to have someone who knows PM's super-complex scheme which makes new Center and Guards' heads spin. ONLY Saturday is capable of playing w/ PM. We're doomed...

Cugel
03-23-2012, 07:30 PM
What an amazingly arrogant, yet incorrect response...

Iupati and Pouncey went 17 and 18 in 2010. Mike Pouncey went top 15 last year. Alex Mack #21 in 09. All highly touted and all solid from the gate.

do you wanna trust his health to some mediocre scrub like Ryan Harris?

I want a good player. Plenty of 1st round interior lineman have panned out. Otherwise...Franklin is a Tackle, so your point, or lack there of, makes zero sense.

Typically, T's especially LTs are chosen in the 1st and Gs go in the 2nd and later rounds. That's been the case for a long time. A few exceptions exist.

I doubt they want to use their #1 pick on a G though, unless a truly outstanding prospect falls and they feel they have no better choice. Not a highly likely scenario.

Denver's draft position is a point to get a really good LB, S or CB, as well as RT though as they often fall to the low to mid 20's. They might take a QB if they like somebody and don't feel they can wait until their pick in the 2nd round. I think that would be a reach, but I can see it.

SmilinAssasSin27
03-23-2012, 07:36 PM
Typically, T's especially LTs are chosen in the 1st and Gs go in the 2nd and later rounds. That's been the case for a long time. A few exceptions exist.

I doubt they want to use their #1 pick on a G though, unless a truly outstanding prospect falls and they feel they have no better choice. Not a highly likely scenario.

Denver's draft position is a point to get a really good LB, S or CB, as well as RT though as they often fall to the low to mid 20's. They might take a QB if they like somebody and don't feel they can wait until their pick in the 2nd round. I think that would be a reach, but I can see it.

I'd love to get a MLB out of this draft. I think we ignore CB altogether, but that's just MHO. I'd actually feel safer w/ an OG based on your prior premise of Manning's neck injury over an OT. OGs are less likely to bust and don't usually have to worry about blindsides. If we get an OT rookie, I fear that his growing pains would become Manning's.

That said...I don't trust Franklin at RT either. There is video evidence to support that he struggles in pass protection. Mike Adams or Nate Potter in round 1 or 2, respectively.

G_Money
03-23-2012, 08:31 PM
I've thought about this some more and I think the only way they can move Franklin is if they use their #1 pick on a RT. That COULD happen of course if they find somebody who they feel is a great prospect to move right in and start at RT.

But, that's a tall order. I think Franklin is as good as they are going to get at RT and they have a lot of other holes to fill as well.

Right. I don't expect them to move Franklin unless they can get a better option in the draft, and that would likely require a 1st round pick. In a lot of mocks I see Stanford's OT Martin dropping to the late first which surprises the hell outta me, but mocks are like March Madness brackets: easily shreddable.

If Martin is there vs. Still, I can absolutely see the Broncos going with the offensive line instead of defensive. Our well-known hatred of drafting DTs would probably kick in there. ;) And he's plenty smart enough and talented enough to understand and aid Manning's offense.


For instance the Broncos have nobody to compare with Rod Smith, Ed McCaffrey, or Shannon Sharpe. And Clady doesn't really compare with HOF Gary Zimmerman.

Agreed with that point for sure. We don't have the talent yet. Whomever we add in the draft or the rest of free agency, we'd better start finding real talents.

Of course, that Broncos team would destroy any team in the league right now, so I don't think you need a historically talented team like the 98 Broncos to win a Super Bowl in the next year or two.

Which works in our favor...but also for our competitors. Having Manning design and implement a real offense here will help. Having two terrific pass rushers will help.

But we need the right guys added to make it all work, and I hope we don't skimp on the trenches. Keeping Manning upright and free from pressure will make us that much more dangerous.

~G

SpringsBroncoFan
03-23-2012, 10:18 PM
Adams (top 20 now) seems to be moving up the boards (49 on Wonderlic) & Martin (not top 20) falling... Glenn is still there, didn't find a wonderlic for him.

I bring up the wonderlic because of the PM check with me line calling... The C avg is 25 & the G avg is 23. PM is 28 (Eli is like 36 I think).

Jeff Saturday was 27, Pollak was 24/34, DeVan 26/47, Richard 28/33, Diem 27.

JD is 29, Kuper 21/40 & Beadles... :drum: 31/36.

Guess that means we aren't getting rid of them! :lol:

Geoff Schwartz is 28/36 isn't that close enough??? :flypig:

Well at least our WR's & TE's are well above avg... except for Caldwell... can't have everything....

Canmore
03-23-2012, 10:26 PM
Adams (top 20 now) seems to be moving up the boards (49 on Wonderlic) & Martin (not top 20) falling... Glenn is still there, didn't find a wonderlic for him.

I bring up the wonderlic because of the PM check with me line calling... The C avg is 25 & the G avg is 23. PM is 28 (Eli is like 36 I think).

Jeff Saturday was 27, Pollak was 24/34, DeVan 26/47, Richard 28/33, Diem 27.

JD is 29, Kuper 21/40 & Beadles... :drum: 31/36.

Guess that means we aren't getting rid of them! :lol:

Geoff Schwartz is 28/36 isn't that close enough??? :flypig:

Well at least our WR's & TE's are well above avg... except for Caldwell... can't have everything....

Don't forget Clady's eye popping 13.

cmc0605
03-23-2012, 10:34 PM
I haven't read most comments on this thread, so I apologize if this is repetitive, but assuming Denver lands no more free agents, the focus on the draft needs to be the defensive interior and probably safety. There's some room in the mid to late rounds to build up on the o-line, but we have a young (and I think talented) group that did a great job growing with each other last season. That experience is huge, especially with the "win now" mentality in Denver that inevitably seeks to minimize the number of rookies on the field.

There's some other points to consider though. One, Manning has a very quick release, and was very good at not getting sacked. Part of that was his o-line in Indy, but he also has that release coupled with pocket awareness. There will be no times where Manning will be running around frantically for 20 seconds. Secondly. teams can't stack the box against Manning, so you'll see a lot more 4 man only rush attacks, with maybe one blitzer. Any more than that and Manning will find the dump off/screen option. If the front office is absolutely convinced that our interior can't handle that sort of rush, then it needs to be fixed, but I see no indication that this is the case.

Talent-wise, it's of course theoretically possible to upgrade our blockers, but if it's realistic (while simultaneously not compromising early draft picks desperately needed elsewhere) is another question. I'm not expert on this years draft class, but I'm not sold on the idea of any 3rd or 4th round pick or higher coming in immediately and having the ability to outplay the people on our line, esp with experience included in the equation.

The biggest thing to me seems to be how the offense (which obviously includes the o-line) adjusts to the style of calling plays at the line rather than in the huddle. There's some brainpower involved there, but I suspect the collective IQ in offensive lines is not radically different across teams. Rather, coaching and the experience practice together should help make that offensive-style transition.

SpringsBroncoFan
03-23-2012, 10:34 PM
Don't forget Clady's eye popping 13.

Couldn't find one for big O... are the T's really involved in that all that much though...

Doesn't seem to be an issue for RB's... McGahee is 12 but Addai is a perfect 10... Didn't find one for Stewart...

SpringsBroncoFan
03-23-2012, 10:54 PM
I haven't read most comments on this thread, so I apologize if this is repetitive, but assuming Denver lands no more free agents, the focus on the draft needs to be the defensive interior and probably safety. There's some room in the mid to late rounds to build up on the o-line, but we have a young (and I think talented) group that did a great job growing with each other last season. That experience is huge, especially with the "win now" mentality in Denver that inevitably seeks to minimize the number of rookies on the field.

There's some other points to consider though. One, Manning has a very quick release, and was very good at not getting sacked. Part of that was his o-line in Indy, but he also has that release coupled with pocket awareness. There will be no times where Manning will be running around frantically for 20 seconds. Secondly. teams can't stack the box against Manning, so you'll see a lot more 4 man only rush attacks, with maybe one blitzer. Any more than that and Manning will find the dump off/screen option. If the front office is absolutely convinced that our interior can't handle that sort of rush, then it needs to be fixed, but I see no indication that this is the case.

Talent-wise, it's of course theoretically possible to upgrade our blockers, but if it's realistic (while simultaneously not compromising early draft picks desperately needed elsewhere) is another question. I'm not expert on this years draft class, but I'm not sold on the idea of any 3rd or 4th round pick or higher coming in immediately and having the ability to outplay the people on our line, esp with experience included in the equation.

The biggest thing to me seems to be how the offense (which obviously includes the o-line) adjusts to the style of calling plays at the line rather than in the huddle. There's some brainpower involved there, but I suspect the collective IQ in offensive lines is not radically different across teams. Rather, coaching and the experience practice together should help make that offensive-style transition.

The IQ thing is mostly only an issue for our T's (Grant is 31). DT 34 Decker 43 JT 35 Tamme 34 Dressen 25 Caldwell is 14 but the avg for WR's is around that I believe... So maybe the G's just have to tap the T's and point out the coverages... There's actually some good brainpower in the middle of the OL...

Rumor is Adams scored really high on the wonderlic but he's supposed to be under #20 now... Glenn may be there at 25 and Massie should be there in the 2nd. I wouldn't put any faith in anybody else being an upgrade. Holmes is a developmental guy that should be there in the 4th, maybe 5th but he'll be another year before he's ready.

As to DT we actually have Ben Garland 6-5 275 coming out of the Air Force this year. I'm sure we'll draft one in the 1st or 2nd and there will be a few leftovers in the 4th.

I disagree on S... I wouldn't draft any in the 1st or 2nd. We can draft the Duke in the 5th as a b/u for Quinton to push Bruton & we can probably grab Menzie late also as another b/u FS.

Nomad
03-24-2012, 09:13 AM
I sure hope the oline does their job. It looks like the BRONCOS FO are adding some toys for Peyton to throw to. I understand Saturday had a few years left but he knew how to orchestrate along with Peyton.

I hope in the draft the BRONCOS solidfy the lines.......I have hope that a stud DT will finally get picked up in the 1st.......welcome to the BRONCOS Mr Cox:pray:.

FlyByU
03-24-2012, 09:36 AM
It better be a draft to keep Manning alive or it will be a waste of a good QB.

Nomad
03-24-2012, 09:41 AM
It better be a draft to keep Manning alive or it will be a waste of a good QB.

It is a must. I also believe keeping the other teams off the scoreboard will put less pressure on Manning and he can rely on that run game a little more.

Shore up those trenches EFX!

Ravage!!!
03-24-2012, 10:07 AM
Manning has played behind much worse OL's than we have. I don't think its that bad, and Manning will just help it out that much more.

Cugel
03-24-2012, 10:47 AM
I think the statistics really make the Broncos O-line look pretty bad overall.


The Denver Situation (http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/23/o-line-performance-toward-fair-evaluation/)

When teams make radical changes to scheme during the season, it’s almost always because they’ve been forced to do so in order to protect personnel that they have to play from being exposed in their regular schemes. . . . Denver dumped their conventional offense because they were left with Tim Tebow as a starting quarterback, but also because their offensive line wasn’t getting it done blocking for the running game they so badly needed.


30th in 2012. Denver Broncos (http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/22/ranking-the-2011-offensive-lines-part-1/)(18th in 2010)

Run Rank 32nd, Pass Rank 22nd, Penalties Rank 23rd . . . .

Best Player: In something of a surprise, it graded out as Orlando Franklin (-9.1). Denver’s best run blocker, Franklin had some issues in pass protection but improved as the season went on.

Worst Player: You kind of expect J.D. Walton (-28.9) to start getting better, but the man who finished second-from-the-bottom in Pass Blocking Efficiency ranking for centers had an even worse sophomore year. This is a crucial third year coming up for him.


Factoring in McGahee (http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/23/o-line-performance-toward-fair-evaluation/)

McGahee is another reason the running figures started to look good without the O-line showing an upturn in performance. He had a truly impressive season, ending up with a Pro-Bowl spot and a place on PFF’s ALL-AFC West team by season’s end.


The Denver Broncos were able to dramatically improve their run game this season, but that improvement didn’t happen because their linemen suddenly started to block better. They schemed their way to an upturn in production, and relied on some impressive work from their runners, but the line maintained a poor level of play despite the improving bottom line.

All in all, Denver's OL was about 3rd worst in the NFL. Kuper was injured, Clady's play has actually declined since his knee injury and he wasn't the same player he was a few years ago, Walton was flat BAD and looks like he doesn't have the athleticism to succeed at C and Beadles looked pretty useless out there too.

Franklin was a rookie but he was beaten like a gong on passing plays. The result was that Tebow was crushed and injured in the pocket by the Patriots. He's a tough guy who's MUCH bigger and better able to take a hit than most QBs, but he couldn't have played in the AFC Championship if the Broncos had gotten there, not because he tried to run or hold onto the ball, but because his OL let a jail break by the Patriots beat him into the ground giving him no chance to do anything but take the hit.

How could the team run so well if their line sucked so bad? Well the option offense really hurts teams that don't stay disciplined. Oakland for instance:


The Raiders (http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/23/o-line-performance-toward-fair-evaluation/) allowed 298 rushing yards in that game, and a pair of 100+ yard rushers from the Broncos, but Denver didn’t actually block well up front. J.D. Walton and some people’s All-Pro, Kuper, in particular struggled badly in the run game, but it didn’t matter because the Raiders just couldn’t maintain their discipline on defense and the option tore them to shreds as defenders simply ran away from their areas of responsibility.

Cugel
03-24-2012, 10:56 AM
I think one way to sum it up is this:

If the OL is going to get TEBOW hurt, despite the fact that he's built like a Sherman Tank and is probably the toughest QB in football, what will happen with Peyton Manning? He can't take the pounding that Tebow did.

True, Manning gets rid of the ball quickly and doesn't try and run with it, but they can't just let defenders plow through the middle of the Broncos OL like they did against the Patriots! :tsk:

Ravage!!!
03-24-2012, 11:14 AM
I think one way to sum it up is this:

If the OL is going to get TEBOW hurt, despite the fact that he's built like a Sherman Tank and is probably the toughest QB in football, what will happen with Peyton Manning? He can't take the pounding that Tebow did.

True, Manning gets rid of the ball quickly and doesn't try and run with it, but they can't just let defenders plow through the middle of the Broncos OL like they did against the Patriots! :tsk:

The difference is more than that. They Defense won't be able to stack 9 people on the LoS with Manning at center. This OL was GREATLY effected by the kind of offense we had to try and run last year, with people stacking teh box and everyone near the LoS. Manning can easily keep defenses honest. Their blitzes will have to be much more confined, and as we have seen from teh best QB in the league... they make teams PAY for blitzing. There is absolutely NO reason to believe that Manning would take the pounding that Tebow supposedly did... especially since Manning doesn't hold onto the ball for 8 seconds.

No. This OL isn't nearly as bad as expressed, and 'stats' just don't tell the story....even more so on the LoS players.

Softskull
03-24-2012, 01:49 PM
Manning has played behind much worse OL's than we have. I don't think its that bad, and Manning will just help it out that much more.

This is how I see it. Our Oline just got much better having a QB with an incredibly fast release and is exceptional at reading and reacting to blitz. Orton was slow physically and mentally and Tebow was chaos. We'll be just fine.

Elevation inc
03-24-2012, 04:40 PM
Heck no!!!! our OL stills sucks as long as walton and beadles our pass protecting. we just upgraded RT with peyton manning since franklin wouldnt be isolated as much, and clady will probally look much better this year cause of mannings quick release but untill we do something about LG and center we still have Ol issues......Folks JD walton worst garded starting center 2 years in a row.......Jeff saturday for example was in the top ten.......


and what the heck happened to BF while I was gone.....LOL

Cugel
03-31-2012, 01:10 PM
The difference is more than that. They Defense won't be able to stack 9 people on the LoS with Manning at center. This OL was GREATLY effected by the kind of offense we had to try and run last year, with people stacking teh box and everyone near the LoS. Manning can easily keep defenses honest. Their blitzes will have to be much more confined, and as we have seen from teh best QB in the league... they make teams PAY for blitzing. There is absolutely NO reason to believe that Manning would take the pounding that Tebow supposedly did... especially since Manning doesn't hold onto the ball for 8 seconds.

No. This OL isn't nearly as bad as expressed, and 'stats' just don't tell the story....even more so on the LoS players.

Denver's OL was horrible last year, but you are right that having Orton & Tebow certainly didn't help! NOBODY respected the arms of either. And they knew that Tebow didn't even want to throw on most downs. When he did drop back to pass, his release was so slow that DBs could read his eyes and break on the ball and step in front.

He pretty much gave up on the middle of the field and concentrated on throwing to the sidelines, which is where he made most of his big plays.

Manning presents a vastly different picture. Teams can't really blitz him successfully, unless they come right up the middle with quick pressure, and it's really better if they can do this with just 4 DL.

The problem is that not many teams have the ability to do that: outside of the NYG and Detroit, name teams that can get really big inside pressure with just 4.

But, if they blitz 5 or 6 then somebody's going to be open. And Manning is going to hit him.

Defenses know that and have to try and play him honest; no cheating. And DBs can't cheat up to the line either, because Manning can easily hit their WR if they break coverage.

Joel
04-01-2012, 03:44 AM
I think the statistics really make the Broncos O-line look pretty bad overall.
I think the Broncos make the Broncos look really bad overall; the stats just give us a metric for HOW bad.



The Denver Broncos were able to dramatically improve their run game this season, but that improvement didn’t happen because their linemen suddenly started to block better. They schemed their way to an upturn in production, and relied on some impressive work from their runners, but the line maintained a poor level of play despite the improving bottom line.

Several of us said this all last year; the stats alone aren't nearly as instructive or revealing as all those plays watching McGahee bounce off or bowl over defenders at the line because he had no blocking (although catfish did find a stat crediting him with >700 yards after contact last year, a THIRD of Denvers rushing.) As a result, he frequently left games in the second half of the season, taking our running game with him as Larsen (3.1 avg.) and Ball (4.2 avg.) produced very little. From a stat perspective, Jeremiah Johnsons 5.5 avg. is more encouraging, but: 17 attempts.

Throw in a QB also excellent at breaking tackles and running for first downs, plus a coaching staff with an OCD about running, and no, our line isn't NEARLY as good as our rushing totals alone suggest. If you run 67% of the time and your starting RB and QB are big, powerful, tackle breakers, you'll put up obscene rushing yardage; that doesn't mean your line run blocks well.

It's at least as bad in pass protection, but I try to stay out of those discussions these days because they always get diverted to ones opinion of Tebow. We've got a Pro Bowl runner and HoF passer this year, so I guess we'll all see if the line's up to snuff; if not, they won't have the luxury of blaming McGahee or Manning (whose immobility combined with our line is very alarming.)

Bugs Baloney
04-01-2012, 07:17 AM
Well,...if we have Harris, (too lazy to do the research), put him back out at RT,
Throw Franklin back in to his natural position at Guard,
Continue to work with Walton. (never know, may have his best season yet?)
Replace Beadles, but only if there is an upgrade through the draft of FA.
Clady of course stays at LT and has another dominating season. (like his rookie season: "Fingers Crossed")

Overall, thats a damn fine o-line! :salute:

Simple Jaded
04-02-2012, 05:51 AM
We're supposed to believe that Tebow makes everybody around him better but Peyton Manning doesn't? Personally, l'd love to see Beadles and Walton replaced and sent to the bench, l think they're garbage. I like the idea of signing Marcus McNeill if he's reasonably priced and willing to play RT, moving Franklin to LG where he has the most experience and letting Walton and Beadles compete for the C position.

Not going to happen and I'm fine with that, I think it's reasonable to wait to see them with a legitimate NFL QB. Ravage makes a great point; Manning has played with far worse players on the OL, Clady, Franklin and Kuper are pretty damn good.

However l wouldn't mind it if Denver drafted Cordy Glenn to play LG, I'm afraid that the '12 class of DT's is way overrated.......

topscribe
04-02-2012, 10:24 AM
Beadles just isn't there for me. He is consistently on his arse in the backfield. The guy at goalline is terrible. Starting to think of him as good back up material.
That's why I am really hoping Harris fully recovers and recaptures his old form.

If the FO could see that and could envision Franklin at LG, Franklin would be a serious upgrade there, IMO . . .

SpringsBroncoFan
04-02-2012, 11:31 AM
We're supposed to believe that Tebow makes everybody around him better but Peyton Manning doesn't? Personally, l'd love to see Beadles and Walton replaced and sent to the bench, l think they're garbage. I like the idea of signing Marcus McNeill if he's reasonably priced and willing to play RT, moving Franklin to LG where he has the most experience and letting Walton and Beadles compete for the C position.

Not going to happen and I'm fine with that, I think it's reasonable to wait to see them with a legitimate NFL QB. Ravage makes a great point; Manning has played with far worse players on the OL, Clady, Franklin and Kuper are pretty damn good.

However l wouldn't mind it if Denver drafted Cordy Glenn to play LG, I'm afraid that the '12 class of DT's is way overrated.......

Media reports say that Philly choose to stay away from McNeill due to his injury concerns and that Bell just wants too much money so no way do we go there... Glenn would solve our concerns over Beadles anyway and I wouldn't be unhappy with that but I'd rather see us fill OG with a lower pick or a trade or even with an in-house upgrade...

Most sites have Cox, Brockers, Still, & Poe as 1st rounders, with Worthy & Reyes as bubble 1st rounders.

The grades on NFL.com certainly support your statement on DL's... it's pretty ugly...

For DT's, Brockers & Poe at 90, Still at 89, & Crick at 89.7 are the only ones with a 1st round grade. Mostly 34 guys, so based on that, yeah I'd rather have Glenn...

Thompson & Winn just miss at 84.5 & 84. Chapman is 83.7 but has a busted knee.

Worthy is 79.5, Cox 77, Harris 72.7.

Daniels & Alecxih just barely miss the cutoff for eventual starters.

So that's only 10 guys in the 1st 3 rounds that could start for us, with the rest rotation, development guys...

They are crazy off on Ta'amu & Reyes and significantly off on Cox & Martin so it's not like they are an oracle but still that's only about 15 guys in the 1st 3 rounds that could fill our open starting DT spot...

So yeah the 1st rounders mostly gone and if we don't grab one in the 2nd... we are screwed...

Last year 8 DT's were taken in the 1st. 3 in the 2nd, & 5 in the 3rd. Last year only 2 of those 16 DT's were left at pick 3-25.

Cugel
04-02-2012, 12:01 PM
The grades on NFL.com certainly support your statement on DL's... it's pretty ugly...

For DT's, Brockers & Poe at 90, Still at 89, & Crick at 89.7 are the only ones with a 1st round grade. Mostly 34 guys, so based on that, yeah I'd rather have Glenn...

Thompson & Winn just miss at 84.5 & 84. Chapman is 83.7 but has a busted knee.

Worthy is 79.5, Cox 77, Harris 72.7.

Daniels & Alecxih just barely miss the cutoff for eventual starters.

So that's only 10 guys in the 1st 3 rounds that could start for us, with the rest rotation, development guys...

They are crazy off on Ta'amu & Reyes and significantly off on Cox & Martin so it's not like they are an oracle but still that's only about 15 guys in the 1st 3 rounds that could fill our open starting DT spot...

So yeah the 1st rounders mostly gone and if we don't grab one in the 2nd... we are screwed...

Last year 8 DT's were taken in the 1st. 3 in the 2nd, & 5 in the 3rd. Last year only 2 of those 16 DT's were left at pick 3-25.

I've seen draft sites suggest that Denver will consider between Jerel Worthy, Mich. St.; Michael Brockers of L.S.U., Kendall Reyes of Connecticut or Devon Still of Penn St.

I won't even pretend to evaluate these players, but we don't have any idea if EFX really likes any of them, and one or more could be gone by #25.

This off-season is shaping up as a disaster outside the Manning signing.

If they were going with Tebow as the starter, I'd say "they have zero chance of winning the SB anyway, so they should just take the best available player, miss the playoffs due to the terrible schedule, and hope to keep strengthening the team for the long term via the draft. BE PATIENT!"

But, with Manning, they can't afford to be patient. They have a 3 year window and not fixing the OL and DL means they are throwing away one year at least! :tsk:

Nomad
04-02-2012, 12:04 PM
I've seen draft sites suggest that Denver will consider between Jerel Worthy, Mich. St.; Michael Brockers of L.S.U., Kendall Reyes of Connecticut or Devon Still of Penn St.

I won't even pretend to evaluate these players, but we don't have any idea if EFX really likes any of them, and one or more could be gone by #25.

This off-season is shaping up as a disaster outside the Manning signing.

If they were going with Tebow as the starter, I'd say "they have zero chance of winning the SB anyway, so they should just take the best available player, miss the playoffs due to the terrible schedule, and hope to keep strengthening the team for the long term via the draft. BE PATIENT!"

But, with Manning, they can't afford to be patient. They have a 3 year window and not fixing the OL and DL means they are throwing away one year at least! :tsk:

So that leaves fixing the DL because Manning can work miracles even with a bad oline......so I've been told.

Cugel
04-02-2012, 12:10 PM
So that leaves fixing the DL because Manning can work miracles even with a bad oline......so I've been told.

I suppose this sarcasm is supposed to make a point. It fails to do so however. :coffee:

Manning makes the job of the OL EASIER! It does not turn Zane Beadles into a good G or Walton into a good C.

And when you get to the playoffs you face teams with actually GOOD DLs who can put pressure on the QB even if your OL is good at pass-blocking, let alone if you have total STIFFS in the middle of your OL!

Nomad
04-02-2012, 12:18 PM
I suppose this sarcasm is supposed to make a point. It fails to do so however. :coffee:

Manning makes the job of the OL EASIER! It does not turn Zane Beadles into a good G or Walton into a good C.

And when you get to the playoffs you face teams with actually GOOD DLs who can put pressure on the QB even if your OL is good at pass-blocking, let alone if you have total STIFFS in the middle of your OL!

You are really inconsistent on your crusade, Cug! Is it DL or OL? I believe Manning can work with what the BRONCOS have (considering he is still the elite manning) though I believe the BRONCOS dropped the ball not getting Saturday. So a late 1st rd olineman is really any better than a late 1st round dlineman?

Cugel
04-02-2012, 02:57 PM
You are really inconsistent on your crusade, Cug! Is it DL or OL? I believe Manning can work with what the BRONCOS have (considering he is still the elite manning) though I believe the BRONCOS dropped the ball not getting Saturday. So a late 1st rd olineman is really any better than a late 1st round dlineman?

Manning can work with what the Broncos have. He didn't always have great OLs in Indy but he made the most of them. However, there are limits. So, having one of the WORST starting C in football isn't a good idea. The Broncos apparently thought so too since they interviewed Jeff Saturday, although they didn't "seem as interested" as other teams so he didn't sign here.

They should have signed a couple of veterans on both the OL and DL, and then taken whoever was the best prospect in the draft at a position of need. That's how good teams draft!

But, the DL is in terrible shape, which is horrible going into the draft. Since they lost both their starting DTs and signed NOBODY in FA they are committed to going into the draft with Ty Warren (maybe), Mitch Unrein (urgh!) and Vickerson (bleh!).

That's as bad a rotation as they had back a few years ago with losers like Sam Adams, Antwon Burton and Amon Gordon. That line was just flattened especially along the goal line and gave up the highest percentage of rushing TDs in the NFL.

A big weakness right in the middle of BOTH the OL and the DL is a very BAD thing and something they should have avoided by signing a couple of FAs.

Rather than worrying about signing two TEs and giving $4 million to a scrub like Joe Mays they should have signed either Marcus Thomas, Broderick Bunkley or Saturday. Preferably they should have signed Saturday and either Bunkley or Thomas, and ideally they should have signed all three.

Then they could take a MLB in the draft and replace Mays or a G to replace Zane Beadles in the starting lineup or a C to replace Walton. Preferably they'd get both a G and C or DT and LB in the draft.

Now they are in desperate condition and need EVERYTHING. And there's ZERO chance that they can fill all those positions in one draft!

They seem to be complacent about their OL which doesn't make me happy because I don't share their apparent confidence in Walton & Beadles, but the desperation is really on the DT position where they have nobody at all.

Cugel
04-02-2012, 03:05 PM
That's why I am really hoping Harris fully recovers and recaptures his old form.

If the FO could see that and could envision Franklin at LG, Franklin would be a serious upgrade there, IMO . . .

Well, that's a big question mark. I haven't heard anything out of Dove Valley talking about Harris. I have no idea if he's even in their plans or whether he's simply injured and washed up.

I suppose the might also consider moving Harris to G. He should be able to play there if he can play RT. Either way, the OL isn't a strength by any means, but it isn't a giant gaping wound like the DT position. They do have SOME options -- IF things work out with Harris.

Nomad
04-02-2012, 03:59 PM
Manning can work with what the Broncos have. He didn't always have great OLs in Indy but he made the most of them. However, there are limits. So, having one of the WORST starting C in football isn't a good idea. The Broncos apparently thought so too since they interviewed Jeff Saturday, although they didn't "seem as interested" as other teams so he didn't sign here.

They should have signed a couple of veterans on both the OL and DL, and then taken whoever was the best prospect in the draft at a position of need. That's how good teams draft!

But, the DL is in terrible shape, which is horrible going into the draft. Since they lost both their starting DTs and signed NOBODY in FA they are committed to going into the draft with Ty Warren (maybe), Mitch Unrein (urgh!) and Vickerson (bleh!).

That's as bad a rotation as they had back a few years ago with losers like Sam Adams, Antwon Burton and Amon Gordon. That line was just flattened especially along the goal line and gave up the highest percentage of rushing TDs in the NFL.

A big weakness right in the middle of BOTH the OL and the DL is a very BAD thing and something they should have avoided by signing a couple of FAs.

Rather than worrying about signing two TEs and giving $4 million to a scrub like Joe Mays they should have signed either Marcus Thomas, Broderick Bunkley or Saturday. Preferably they should have signed Saturday and either Bunkley or Thomas, and ideally they should have signed all three.

Then they could take a MLB in the draft and replace Mays or a G to replace Zane Beadles in the starting lineup or a C to replace Walton. Preferably they'd get both a G and C or DT and LB in the draft.

Now they are in desperate condition and need EVERYTHING. And there's ZERO chance that they can fill all those positions in one draft!

They seem to be complacent about their OL which doesn't make me happy because I don't share their apparent confidence in Walton & Beadles, but the desperation is really on the DT position where they have nobody at all.

I've been agreeing with alot of what you are saying. Though people seem to brush it off, Bunkley was a big loss. I guess I am giving Manning the benefit of the doubt and trusting EFX that this offense is going to work with the pieces they have. I've been on the DL bandwagon for many, many years and until the BRONCOS prove they can fit pieces into the defense other than dlineman and be great then I'll shut up and sit back. I believe between Fox and Del Rio, they can find a diamond in the rough DL @ 25 and hope one of the retrends coming off of injury can contribute as good as Bunkley did.

Cugel
04-03-2012, 05:56 PM
There's still some hope they will get some veteran during the summer. Bunkley was traded by Philly for a 5th rounder back in July 2011 although the trade was voided and the compensation is an undisclosed draft pick in 2013 now. Something like that COULD happen again this year.

You can bet the Broncos are hoping that some team will have an under-achieving, old or injured DT they want to unload who will suddenly turn into a stud DT once he gets to Denver. That almost always works.

Just like it did with DeWayne Robertson or Ron Fields or Jamal Williams or Sam Adams or Justin Bannan. Oh, wait . . . . :coffee: