For those who observe down the middle

[Northman]

Figured i would make a thread for those of us who dont picks sides and only care about the Denver Broncos as an organization.


So here we are. 10 days, no return calls. Not even an FU to McD in sight.

So Bowlen and McD finally figured out what i knew 3 weeks ago was going to happen. Jay doesnt have the maturity to overcome adversity off the field let alone on the field. However, leave it to a young arrogant coach to come in and decide without even giving it a go that his starting QB wouldnt be able to run his system and thus wasnt man enough himself to be honest with his player about it.

So, yea im disappointed. But at the same time relieved. Bowlen put a lot of stock into this young coach and after the initial trade discussions i pretty much made up my mind that McD needs to get his guys in here who he thinks will work in his system. So he will either sink or swim with these same guys. No, if he doesnt do better than 8-8 this year he wont catch any breaks from me. You dont come in and alienate yourself from one of the most popular players/contributors on this team and then expect to welcomed with open arms. But, he's the genius right? Fair enough. He still gets this year to prove me wrong. Good luck to him because as a Bronco fan i need him to prove me wrong.

Now to Cutler.

Yep, im going to miss that talent. But im not going to miss that pouty, whiney, ***** of a emo QB. Not one bit. I truly never thought he would be ten times worse than Rivers but Rivers at least knows how to move the **** on. Jay has so much to work on as far as his mental stability goes. For his future's sake i hope he learns how to deal with adversity better. Right now he even makes Jeff George look like a all pro character guy. At least Jeff had no problem confronting the coaches he didnt like even if he was telling them to **** off.

Furthermore, i really hope we can dupe someone into giving up the farm for him one way or another. This team needs a lot of help in a lot of areas. Teams are interested in him but how much are they really willing to give up to get him? Guess we will find out but im sure his attitude is being taken in consideration. Either way, i just cant fathom having a guy on this team who doesnt have the will power to go out and prove his naysayers wrong on the field. Instead he turned tail and ran like a frightened kitten. Mentality wise he just isnt where i want my Qb to be. So Jay, good luck son wherever you may land.

[WARHORSE]

Right downt he middle?

Please.

[sneakers]

I am of the opinion that no one single party is fully at fault here....Ownership, Cutler, and Mc(insert cleverness here) are all to fault for this mess.

[claymore]

My down the middle view......

Josh McDaniels might be a good to great Coach. If not, he just set this franchise back years and years. This will be hard to recover from regardless of what we trade for.

I need to throw up.

[omac]

Beyond all the maneuvering, here-say, and such, the bottom line for this to work between Cutler and McDaniels is this:

Cutler only wanted one thing ... McDaniels' word that he would be part of the Broncos future plans. That's the one thing McDaniels could not give him. So Cutler decided to try to get himself traded to a team that will have him in their future plans, and all his actions have supported this move. He has stuck to his word that he won't miss mandatories, as they haven't come up yet.

McDaniels gets what he wants ... a chance to get a QB that he'd rather have, and Cutler gets what he wants ... a team that wants to have him.

I think that's the down the line middle, more or less. They both get what they really wanted, anyways.

[CoachChaz]

Is McDaniels the one to set the organization back? Let's assume for a moment, because assuming is all we can do, that he did TRY to trade Jay and did LIE to him about it. Is Jay's behavior since then worthy of all this? I mean seriously...get over it.

I try not to make things personal around here, but I'll say this in general. Based on the information we have, if someone sympathizes with Jay in all this and think he has acted appropriately and without an agenda...I feel sorry for you.

[CoachChaz]

There is no such thing as down the middle on this. I've read two posts "claiming" to be down the middle and both leaned one way or the other.

[Tned]

Is McDaniels the one to set the organization back? Let's assume for a moment, because assuming is all we can do, that he did TRY to trade Jay and did LIE to him about it. Is Jay's behavior since then worthy of all this? I mean seriously...get over it.

I try not to make things personal around here, but I'll say this in general. Based on the information we have, if someone sympathizes with Jay in all this and think he has acted appropriately and without an agenda...I feel sorry for you.

Throw in that it was reported that McDaniels said that he tried to trade Cutler because of his heavy drinking and lack of football smarts. I think that's called lack of head coaching stats.

Even if it is true that Jay has a drinking problem, or simply drinks too much for someone with diabetes, you don't openly discuss that in a way it will wind up in a news report.

Both the QB and HC have shown an extreme case of immaturity.

[claymore]

Is McDaniels the one to set the organization back? Let's assume for a moment, because assuming is all we can do, that he did TRY to trade Jay and did LIE to him about it. Is Jay's behavior since then worthy of all this? I mean seriously...get over it.

I try not to make things personal around here, but I'll say this in general. Based on the information we have, if someone sympathizes with Jay in all this and think he has acted appropriately and without an agenda...I feel sorry for you.

No need to feel sorry for me. Im pretty confident in my opinion that McD/Bowlen made a huge mistake.

The Broncos will not be a better team without Cutler unless a miracle Matt Ryan QB scenario plays out.

IMO, McDaniels caused the situation and couldnt fix it. No other blame is placed anywhere.

So that leads me to my overall opinion the Broncos were better off without McDaniels, and I would like to see him go.


Its not about sympathy. But I dont fault Cutler at all.

[CoachChaz]

No need to feel sorry for me. Im pretty confident in my opinion that McD/Bowlen made a huge mistake.

The Broncos will not be a better team without Cutler unless a miracle Matt Ryan QB scenario plays out.

IMO, McDaniels caused the situation and couldnt fix it. No other blame is placed anywhere.

So that leads me to my overall opinion the Broncos were better off without McDaniels, and I would like to see him go.


Its not about sympathy. But I dont fault Cutler at all.

Regardless of what McD has or hasnt done, this is a completely ridiculous statement.

[Tned]

Regardless of what McD has or hasnt done, this is a completely ridiculous statement.

Yes, Cutler has acted like an immature punk, but McDaniels has acted like a VERY young, rookie head coach/GM who is over his head.

[claymore]

Regardless of what McD has or hasnt done, this is a completely ridiculous statement.

For a guy that says we dont know anything, I dont see how you could think that way. For all we know Cutler hasnt been called or text'ed.

[broncobryce]

Beyond all the maneuvering, here-say, and such, the bottom line for this to work between Cutler and McDaniels is this:

Cutler only wanted one thing ... McDaniels' word that he would be part of the Broncos future plans. That's the one thing McDaniels could not give him. So Cutler decided to try to get himself traded to a team that will have him in their future plans, and all his actions have supported this move. He has stuck to his word that he won't miss mandatories, as they haven't come up yet.

McDaniels gets what he wants ... a chance to get a QB that he'd rather have, and Cutler gets what he wants ... a team that wants to have him.

I think that's the down the line middle, more or less. They both get what they really wanted, anyways.

And the fans get screwed......This MF better win, that's all I know. He just ran the best thing on the team out of town. He better win.

[claymore]

And the fans get screwed......This MF better win, that's all I know. He just ran the best thing on the team out of town. He better win.
If he doesnt, there will be an implosion by the team, an explosion by the fans, and McD will be looking for a new job. We will then be left with nothing.

Hopefully Xanders/McD can draft.

[Elevation inc]

There is no such thing as down the middle on this. I've read two posts "claiming" to be down the middle and both leaned one way or the other.

there is a way

1. MCD is 32, a rookie coach and all rookie coaches make mistakes as humans do. Doesnt make it right, but it happens
2. Cutler is 25 years old, maturity sometimes takes awhile and many 25 year old males arent fully mature yet, thats a fact
3. Bowlen is getting old and perhpas his mind just doesnt work like it did ten years ago.


based on this they all have faults.




the way to stay down the middle? forget this as cutler is probally on his way out. Move on accept what happened becasue we cant change it. accept that things may not be great, but understand as a fan, we watch from a distance, and may not get the full scoop. and what we can control is still watching and supporting the players on this team


As of right now.....

I dont support cutler, I dont support MCd till he wins, and i dont Support bowlen.


you know who i do support?????


Simms/Hackney/Arrington/Buckhalter/Torain/Jordan/Hillis/Marshall/Royal/
Stokley/Jackson/Gaffney/Graham/Sheff/Putzier/Clady/Harris/Polumbus/Kuper
Licht/Hamliton/Weigman/Thomas/Peterson/Powell/Reid/Crowder/Moss/Dumervil
Williams/larsen/woodyard/Bailey/Dawkins/Hill/Barrett/Goodman/Bailey/Williams/Bell......


and any other bronco i missed.


I cant change the past or future, but i can certainly root for all the players that wear the denver logo and play for this team, regardless of whether i like the owner or coach or anyone in the FO for that matter.


that in my mind is at least trying to stay down the middle.:salute:

[CoachChaz]

For a guy that says we dont know anything, I dont see how you could think that way. For all we know Cutler hasnt been called or text'ed.

Here's what I do know. At ANY moment, the things that McDaniels and Bowlen have been saying could easily be blown away if someone stood up and said anything.

At the beginning, McD said he "listened to" an offer and didnt initiate anything. Any team involved could have called him a liar...why didnt they?

Right now, McD and Bowlen are saying their attempts to call Cutler have been ignored and they even tried to go through his agent. Cutler and Cook could stand up and sho proof this never happened...why dont they?

There are alot of situations where all the assumed lies could be disproven publicly, but they havent. The team outs itself out there in the media and opens themselves to this and still...no one disproves any of it. Why do you think that is?

[pnbronco]

I think mistakes were made on all sides. The one thing I do remember is that before the bill went through for the new stadium there was a lot of talk about selling the Broncos to another town.

My biggest hope is that everyone can move on from this and the Broncos can become a team that works together to improve the game on the field. My biggest fear is that Mr. Bowlen will get so fed up that he sells the team. So I will support our team "The Broncos".

[Krugan]

Heres a middle of the road, they are all morons.

Jay is acting like he is his jersey number.

Bowlen cant call someone "the man in town" and then not follow through.

Mcd, doesnt seem to be able to commit to anything.

The whole lot cant help but make themselves look idiotic, from whining to broadcasting fautls.

All of it lowers the value to every one.

[claymore]

Here's what I do know. At ANY moment, the things that McDaniels and Bowlen have been saying could easily be blown away if someone stood up and said anything.

At the beginning, McD said he "listened to" an offer and didnt initiate anything. Any team involved could have called him a liar...why didnt they?

Right now, McD and Bowlen are saying their attempts to call Cutler have been ignored and they even tried to go through his agent. Cutler and Cook could stand up and sho proof this never happened...why dont they?

There are alot of situations where all the assumed lies could be disproven publicly, but they havent. The team outs itself out there in the media and opens themselves to this and still...no one disproves any of it. Why do you think that is?

There is no way to prove a call that never happened. The Broncos organization led us to this point. The new crew are amatures. I just dont see how you cant see it.

[weazel]

Right downt he middle?

Please.

you picked the wrong side, get over it. Your boy just turned tail and hid. He's a ******* punk. He was never coming back, he and his parants put their houses up for sale long ago.

[GEM]

Throw in that it was reported that McDaniels said that he tried to trade Cutler because of his heavy drinking and lack of football smarts. I think that's called lack of head coaching stats.

Even if it is true that Jay has a drinking problem, or simply drinks too much for someone with diabetes, you don't openly discuss that in a way it will wind up in a news report.

Both the QB and HC have shown an extreme case of immaturity.

That report came on some blog from a TERRIBLE sports caster. It was immediately recanted and removed as soon as it started picking up steam.

[Medford Bronco]

Figured i would make a thread for those of us who dont picks sides and only care about the Denver Broncos as an organization.


So here we are. 10 days, no return calls. Not even an FU to McD in sight.

So Bowlen and McD finally figured out what i knew 3 weeks ago was going to happen. Jay doesnt have the maturity to overcome adversity off the field let alone on the field. However, leave it to a young arrogant coach to come in and decide without even giving it a go that his starting QB wouldnt be able to run his system and thus wasnt man enough himself to be honest with his player about it.

So, yea im disappointed. But at the same time relieved. Bowlen put a lot of stock into this young coach and after the initial trade discussions i pretty much made up my mind that McD needs to get his guys in here who he thinks will work in his system. So he will either sink or swim with these same guys. No, if he doesnt do better than 8-8 this year he wont catch any breaks from me. You dont come in and alienate yourself from one of the most popular players/contributors on this team and then expect to welcomed with open arms. But, he's the genius right? Fair enough. He still gets this year to prove me wrong. Good luck to him because as a Bronco fan i need him to prove me wrong.

Now to Cutler.

Yep, im going to miss that talent. But im not going to miss that pouty, whiney, ***** of a emo QB. Not one bit. I truly never thought he would be ten times worse than Rivers but Rivers at least knows how to move the **** on. Jay has so much to work on as far as his mental stability goes. For his future's sake i hope he learns how to deal with adversity better. Right now he even makes Jeff George look like a all pro character guy. At least Jeff had no problem confronting the coaches he didnt like even if he was telling them to **** off.

Furthermore, i really hope we can dupe someone into giving up the farm for him one way or another. This team needs a lot of help in a lot of areas. Teams are interested in him but how much are they really willing to give up to get him? Guess we will find out but im sure his attitude is being taken in consideration. Either way, i just fathom having a guy on this team who doesnt have the will power to go out and prove his naysayers wrong on the field. Instead he turned tail and ran like a frightened kitten. Mentality wise he just isnt where i want my Qb to be. So Jay, good luck son wherever you may land.


What a shock Northman, Jay is a baby, something most of us already knew.

He will never succeed in this league. As a lot of fans have told me.
Jeff George part 2. Exactly to a T.

[CoachChaz]

There is no way to prove a call that never happened. The Broncos organization led us to this point. The new crew are amatures. I just dont see how you cant see it.

I'm not saying they arent amateurs...but I refuse to say anything has happened that necessitates the action jay has taken.

[claymore]

you picked the wrong side, get over it. Your boy just turned tail and hid. He's a ******* punk. He was never coming back, he and his parants put their houses up for sale long ago.

War picked the side of the Broncos, as have I. Its you and other that have chosen the side of Josh McD.

The man has done nothing for the Broncos, not a freakin thing except the unimaginable.

If anyone is a punk bitch that screwed the family its McD.

[claymore]

I'm not saying they arent amateurs...but I refuse to say anything has happened that necessitates the action jay has taken.

All jay has done was supposedly not answer his phone. Personall favors went out the window once the trade talks began.

I doubt it is in his contract he has to answer his phone.

[CoachChaz]

All jay has done was supposedly not answer his phone. Personall favors went out the window once the trade talks began.

I doubt it is in his contract he has to answer his phone.

Seriously? Everything that has happened to this point is completely valid due to his name coming up in a trade offer? Condoning his actions would be far worse for the organization than a coach that...crazy as it sounds...wants to run the team his way.

[weazel]

War picked the side of the Broncos, as have I. Its you and other that have chosen the side of Josh McD.

The man has done nothing for the Broncos, not a freakin thing except the unimaginable.

If anyone is a punk bitch that screwed the family its McD.

I have had nothing good to say about McDaniels, you might want to read my posts before accusing me of things clay. I was hoping Cutler was going to stay, I think he has skills (numchuck skills) but his immaturity and LACK OF COMPOSURE got the best of him.

I am pissed, as all of us should be. If you aren't pissed, you aren't a Broncos fan

[weazel]

All jay has done was supposedly not answer his phone. Personall favors went out the window once the trade talks began.

I doubt it is in his contract he has to answer his phone.


that is a weak ...no, VERY WEAK argument

[omac]

The bottom line issue is still the same.

Jay said he wanted assurances from McDaniels, and he said after their face-to-face meeting, he felt that the message was that he could be traded in the future. What Jay wanted was a commitment from McDaniels that he'd be part of the Broncos future.

In a video interview, McDaniels was asked if Jay was his QB, and he said "Jay Cutler is our QB period." Then when he was asked if Cutler was his QB for the future, he answered that he couldn't say yes to that, and that anyone could be traded. It was on video. Check it out in one of the later vids on NFL.com; Jrwiz posted a link on it.

Cutler wants that assurance, McDaniels can't give it, so Cutler asks for a trade, now Denver will comply.

The bottom line for Cutler was that commitment, and the bottom line for McDaniels is that he can't give that commitment. That's an impasse, and now the impasse is broken.

[Northman]

The bottom line issue is still the same.

Jay said he wanted assurances from McDaniels, and he said after their face-to-face meeting, he felt that the message was that he could be traded in the future. What Jay wanted was a commitment from McDaniels that he'd be part of the Broncos future.

In a video interview, McDaniels was asked if Jay was his QB, and he said "Jay Cutler is our QB period." Then when he was asked if Cutler was his QB for the future, he answered that he couldn't say yes to that, and that anyone could be traded. It was on video. Check it out in one of the later vids on NFL.com; Jrwiz posted a link on it.

Cutler wants that assurance, McDaniels can't give it, so Cutler asks for a trade, now Denver will comply.

The bottom line for Cutler was that commitment, and the bottom line for McDaniels is that he can't give that commitment. That's an impasse, and now the impasse is broken.


And im assuming that committment is two fold. Jay wanted a committment from McD and McD wanted the same from Jay which he wasnt getting. Jay wanted to be traded and got his wish.

[CoachChaz]

The bottom line issue is still the same.

Jay said he wanted assurances from McDaniels, and he said after their face-to-face meeting, he felt that the message was that he could be traded in the future. What Jay wanted was a commitment from McDaniels that he'd be part of the Broncos future.

In a video interview, McDaniels was asked if Jay was his QB, and he said "Jay Cutler is our QB period." Then when he was asked if Cutler was his QB for the future, he answered that he couldn't say yes to that, and that anyone could be traded. It was on video. Check it out in one of the later vids on NFL.com; Jrwiz posted a link on it.

Cutler wants that assurance, McDaniels can't give it, so Cutler asks for a trade, now Denver will comply.

The bottom line for Cutler was that commitment, and the bottom line for McDaniels is that he can't give that commitment. That's an impasse, and now the impasse is broken.

It's a no win for McD. What happens if he makes that committment and Jay has peaked? What if he never has another good game? What if he cant handle McD's system? Then McD keeps sending him out there. The fans get pissed...but hey...he made a committment.

[claymore]

that is a weak ...no, VERY WEAK argument

Its not an argument its a fact. Cutler was treated poorly in his eyes. He has no contractual obligations to return texts, or answer phones.

[claymore]

It's a no win for McD. What happens if he makes that committment and Jay has peaked? What if he never has another good game? What if he cant handle McD's system? Then McD keeps sending him out there. The fans get pissed...but hey...he made a committment.

What if McD is turns out to be a terrible coach, and Cutler turns out to be a HOF QB?

[Northman]

Its not an argument its a fact. Cutler was treated poorly in his eyes. He has no contractual obligations to return texts, or answer phones.

Except for a sense of professionalism.

[omac]

And im assuming that committment is two fold. Jay wanted a committment from McD and McD wanted the same from Jay which he wasnt getting. Jay wanted to be traded and got his wish.

Jay has always shown strong work ethic, study habbits, and obedience to his coaches during his stint with Shanahan, as well as in Vanderbilt. That's why he was able to execute Shanahan's complex gameplans tailored to different opponents each week. That's something Jaws touched on.

The only thing he asked from McDaniels is that he's committed to Jay as his QB in the future, like Shanahan was. McDaniels could not commit to that. Jay said that's the message he got from McDaniels, and McDaniels said the same thing on video to a reporter when asked that same question. That is documented on video.

Cutler always gives 100%, but what he asked McDaniels was his commitment to Cutler's future as the Broncos QB. McDaniels could not give it, and thus the impasse.

Cutler wants that commitment from his coach, but McDaniels doesn't want to give that kind of commitment. Impasse. Now, with a trade, the impasse is broken. Cutler can go to a team that's willing to plan a future with him, while McDaniels can get a QB who he does not need to give any future commitments to.

That's the bottom line. And it's on video.

[Northman]

Jay has always shown strong work ethic, study habbits, and obedience to his coaches during his stint with Shanahan, as well as in Vanderbilt. That's why he was able to execute Shanahan's complex gameplans tailored to different opponents each week. That's something Jaws touched on.

The only thing he asked from McDaniels is that he's committed to Jay as his QB in the future, like Shanahan was. McDaniels could not commit to that. Jay said that's the message he got from McDaniels, and McDaniels said the same thing on video to a reporter when asked that same question. That is documented on video.

Cutler always gives 100%, but what he asked McDaniels was his commitment to Cutler's future as the Broncos QB. McDaniels could not give it, and thus the impasse.

Cutler wants that commitment from his coach, but McDaniels doesn't want to give that kind of commitment. Impasse. Now, with a trade, the impasse is broken. Cutler can go to a team that's willing to plan a future with him, while McDaniels can get a QB who he does not need to give any future commitments to.

That's the bottom line. And it's on video.


I dont care if its on video. Seriously. NO ONE IS UNTRADEABLE. I believe in that mantra and obviously so does McD. No one is bigger than the team and Cutler should not have to be coddled in order to play for the Denver Broncos. Sorry. McD said he was the QB but said that anything is possible if its BETTER FOR THE TEAM. That sounds like a problem on Jay's end that he cannot get over and it was up to Jay to prove that he is a QB worthy of KEEPING. His actions by not returning simple phone calls proves he isnt worth keeping and that he would much rather continue the drama rather than go and prove the coach wrong. Its his perrogative which is fine, but its still on him and there's no one to blame for how this has ended. Jay wanted the trade, refused to talk to management and have now forced their hand to trade him because of his unwillingness to work with them. Crying over the fact that your not bigger than the team will get you nowhere in the NFL.

[omac]

Except for a sense of professionalism.

Professionalism could've started early if they allowed Bus Cook to communicate with them when Cutler was trying to get confirmation when he first heard his name in trade talks, but that was just business, right? Not answering calls then becomes just business when you've decided you want to be traded.

JMO, but I really believe McDaniels got what he wanted; maybe not Cassel, but a chance to get a QB he'll be comfortable with. Jay wanted to play for Denver, but not for McDaniels, so he kind of got what he wanted too, or at least he didn't get what he didn't want.

[CoachChaz]

What if McD is turns out to be a terrible coach, and Cutler turns out to be a HOF QB?

Exactly...as long as both options are a possibility, we have no choice but to remain Broncos fans and hope for the best for our team.

[Northman]

Professionalism could've started early if they allowed Bus Cook to communicate with them when Cutler was trying to get confirmation when he first heard his name in trade talks, but that was just business, right? Not answering calls then becomes just business when you've decided you want to be traded.

JMO, but I really believe McDaniels got what he wanted; maybe not Cassel, but a chance to get a QB he'll be comfortable with. Jay wanted to play for Denver, but not for McDaniels, so he kind of got what he wanted too, or at least he didn't get what he didn't want.

Professionalism is a two way street. McD had his share of issues early on but that doesnt mean that its ok for Jay to carry on like he has for the last month. McD and Bowlen have stated what they want, Jay has kept quiet and ignored any possible fixing of the situation. Trading players is business whether you want to come to terms with that or not. If Jay's issue was about money than he needed to make that clear and then at that point i understand. But this has only been about the possible trade that never went down. Thats a clear sign of immaturity and unprofessionalism that has far outweighed the immaturity and unprofessionalism that McD showed early on. Since then, McD has laid it all out there as too who he is what he will do. Jay hasnt been able to come to grips with that which puts the ownage on him. He's the player, he's expendable just like any other player on this team. I dont go into my job thinking ill never get fired and prance around like im better than everyone else with nothing to worry about. I learned a long time ago management is always full of shit. Thats life and thats business. But if i like the people i work with and i like the job (in this case playing football) than i go to work and dont worry about what bug the boss has in his ass. And if i dont want to be at that job i leave and i tell them to their face that im leaving. If i just quit out of the blue and dont return phone calls thats just highly unprofessional of me as a person.

[omac]

I dont care if its on video. Seriously. NO ONE IS UNTRADEABLE. I believe in that mantra and obviously so does McD. No one is bigger than the team and Cutler should not have to be coddled in order to play for the Denver Broncos. Sorry. McD said he was the QB but said that anything is possible if its BETTER FOR THE TEAM. That sounds like a problem on Jay's end that he cannot get over and it was up to Jay to prove that he is a QB worthy of KEEPING. His actions by not returning simple phone calls proves he isnt worth keeping and that he would much rather continue the drama rather than go and prove the coach wrong. Its his perrogative which is fine, but its still on him and there's no one to blame for how this has ended. Jay wanted the trade, refused to talk to management and have now forced their hand to trade him because of his unwillingness to work with them. Crying over the fact that your not bigger than the team will get you nowhere in the NFL.

Actually, in professional sports, players are handled differently depending on their worth to the team.

For those that have a big impact on the team, the team's superstars, they are kept happy; that's why Bowlen chose Elway over Reeves when they had their spat. Was Elway bigger than the team? Didn't Reeves just believe that Maddox would be better for the team? In another example, the Bulls kept one benchwarmer on the roster, paid, not because he was a good player, but because he was a friend of Dennis Rodman, and he could keep Rodman happy. When Magic Johnson was new in the NBA, he hated his coach, Paul Westhead, so the Lakers fired Westhead and got Pat Riley, all because the superstar, Magic Johnson, could not coexist with Westhead. Was Magic bigger than the team? His importance to the Lakers and their championships was evident; he was the team, but he was also a team player. Yet he got what he wanted.

For those who are soldi/average, they're treated well, but not to the same effect as the superstars, because the league is filled with players of at least equal skill or better. For all of Foxworth or Paymah's hard work and loyalty to their team, they were not valued by their team. Just business.

For those who struggle to make the roster, they're treated like dirt. Was it Chad Mustard? He's a teacher, I think; he gets a call from the Broncos, drops everything in his life to play for them; gets cut; goes to work again in outside of football; then gets a call, drops everything; then gets cut. etc.

I believe that if the NFL is a business, and if no one is above the team, then no team must be above a player; you know, the guy who has to work for himself and his family. If it's just business that anyone can be traded, then it's just business when a player asks to be traded, just like Sharpe said.

Now if a player will bleed for his team, then that team should bleed for that player. If it's just business, then that's all it is ... just business.

[claymore]

Exactly...as long as both options are a possibility, we have no choice but to remain Broncos fans and hope for the best for our team.

Thats the plan. I think the clock starts ticking on McDaniels the second Cutler is traded. He better have one hell of a plan.

[OB]

What if..........

What if.........

What if.........


I cant believe everyone is arguing over IFS and BUTS

[Northman]

Actually, in professional sports, players are handled differently depending on their worth to the team.

For those that have a big impact on the team, the team's superstars, they are kept happy; that's why Bowlen chose Elway over Reeves when they had their spat. Was Elway bigger than the team? Didn't Reeves just believe that Maddox would be better for the team? In another example, the Bulls kept one benchwarmer on the roster, paid, not because he was a good player, but because he was a friend of Dennis Rodman, and he could keep Rodman happy. When Magic Johnson was new in the NBA, he hated his coach, Paul Westhead, so the Lakers fired Westhead and got Pat Riley, all because the superstar, Magic Johnson, could not coexist with Westhead. Was Magic bigger than the team? His importance to the Lakers and their championships was evident; he was the team, but he was also a team player. Yet he got what he wanted.

For those who are soldi/average, they're treated well, but not to the same effect as the superstars, because the league is filled with players of at least equal skill or better. For all of Foxworth or Paymah's hard work and loyalty to their team, they were not valued by their team. Just business.

For those who struggle to make the roster, they're treated like dirt. Was it Chad Mustard? He's a teacher, I think; he gets a call from the Broncos, drops everything in his life to play for them; gets cut; goes to work again in outside of football; then gets a call, drops everything; then gets cut. etc.

I believe that if the NFL is a business, and if no one is above the team, then no team must be above a player; you know, the guy who has to work for himself and his family. If it's just business that anyone can be traded, then it's just business when a player asks to be traded, just like Sharpe said.

Now if a player will bleed for his team, then that team should bleed for that player. If it's just business, then that's all it is ... just business.


Their handled differently based upon their character. Terrell Owens is a great player but gets let go/traded because he cant handle himself or his emotions. Elway, Brady, Manning, etc. get handled differently because their character is just as great as their talent. Jay probably would have been handled better had he not gone into meltdown mode. You know, maybe McD toyed with the trade senario to see how Cutler would react? Maybe he wanted to see what kind of resolve his QB had when faced with a dilemma that he couldnt control? If that is the case than Cutler failed miserably and maybe it has spoken to what kind of player Jay will turn out to be. I think in the end loyalty with big name stars starts with how you handle things that arent in your control. Generally the players who cry the most to the media about unfairness are the ones who dont end up with rings. When those players make it more about them than the team, the team wont go to bat for them when it matters most.

[omac]

Professionalism is a two way street. McD had his share of issues early on but that doesnt mean that its ok for Jay to carry on like he has for the last month. McD and Bowlen have stated what they want, Jay has kept quiet and ignored any possible fixing of the situation. Trading players is business whether you want to come to terms with that or not. If Jay's issue was about money than he needed to make that clear and then at that point i understand. But this has only been about the possible trade that never went down. Thats a clear sign of immaturity and unprofessionalism that has far outweighed the immaturity and unprofessionalism that McD showed early on. Since then, McD has laid it all out there as too who he is what he will do. Jay hasnt been able to come to grips with that which puts the ownage on him. He's the player, he's expendable just like any other player on this team. I dont go into my job thinking ill never get fired and prance around like im better than everyone else with nothing to worry about. I learned a long time ago management is always full of shit. Thats life and thats business. But if i like the people i work with and i like the job (in this case playing football) than i go to work and dont worry about what bug the boss has in his ass. And if i dont want to be at that job i leave and i tell them to their face that im leaving. If i just quit out of the blue and dont return phone calls thats just highly unprofessional of me as a person.

Sorry, man, but on this point, we just don't see eye to eye. After the face-to-face meeting, Jay decided he wanted to be traded, and made his request known. If he did ignore those calls, which he probably did, he was probably advised to do so by his agent, in order to get the outcome he wanted. That even happens in business, where one party won't answer the calls of another party to make him sweat it out, for a desired outcome. And in this case, he they (Jay and Cook) got the outcome they wanted. It's similar to when a player holds out for a better contract; he may look like a malcontent, but what he's doing is for business. When Quinn was holding out for a better contract during his rookie season, he was hearing it from the fans and others about how he's ungrateful and such. He did say, though, that the Browns players wanted him to continue his resolve in his holdout, because that's something they all can go through; it's business.

Professional sports is just really different from amateur sports.

[CoachChaz]

Thats the plan. I think the clock starts ticking on McDaniels the second Cutler is traded. He better have one hell of a plan.

Again...we have a mediocre team and a rough schedule. With or without Cutler, we cant automatically expect complete success from any coach in just one year. That is just silly. So if he goes 8-8...dont be shocked.

[OB]

Again...we have a mediocre team and a rough schedule. With or without Cutler, we cant automatically expect complete success from any coach in just one year. That is just silly. So if he goes 8-8...dont be shocked.

True we do have a hellacious (sp?) schedule this year - actually that is something to be very concerned about regardless of who is wearing the headset and who is under center

[OrangeHoof]

None of us knows what was said between Jay and Josh. But I've got to believe there was something harsher than has been reported in the media for Jay to act this way. I mean, the kid went to Vanderbilt - that's like going to Northwestern or Rice. You don't go there to be a front-runner with an attitude.

IOW, Jay is not TO or Ocho Cinco. Something had to cause this change of heart. We may never know what it is but a veteran coach would have nipped it in the bud early and not had it drag on the way this has.

Until I know what Jay knows and what Josh knows, I can't find definitive fault but I have to presume the head coach is more responsibility for failure than the quarterback is.

[bcbronc]

honestly, I'm feeling cautiously optimistic about where we are heading as a franchise.

I love Cutler's tools, but had questions about his tool box. from playing horribly in a winner take all vs SD, to carrying on vs Rivers, even though Rivers constantly owned us, to speaking out when Shanny go fired, to going public about wanting to keep Bates, to not being willing to meet McDaniels without his baby sitter....er...agent, to now not even bothering to return Mr. Bowlen's phone calls. now I'm concerned Jay's tool box is nothing more than a soggy paper bag.

but he's got that damn sexy right arm that has other teams drooling. great, he doesn't want to be here (and McD may or may not actually want him here) but he does have value.

If this is handled right, it could be one big step back, but 3-5 steps forward. Jay's a great talent, but that great talent has taken us to a .500 record the past three years, below .500 with him starting.

we'll see where we go from here. granted, this could blow up and be the worst move in franchise history. 10 years from now, we fans might be burning efigies of McDaniels in an effort to purge the Cutler Curse. But I don't think so.

even though McDaniels took some wrong steps in his relationship with Jay, I've been happy with the big picture. great coaching hires, solid--if low key--UFA signings. we've still got a great, young o-line, and lots of weapons for any qb. our defense won't be a complete embarrassment next season. and now we'll be adding some more high draft picks to help speed this rebuild up. we may not go 8-8 next season (tough schedule), but we will be laying down the foundation for a team that will be back in the mix sooner rather than later.

it's too bad. Jay and McD could have done great things together. but that's the way the ball bounces sometimes. go Broncos.

[claymore]

Again...we have a mediocre team and a rough schedule. With or without Cutler, we cant automatically expect complete success from any coach in just one year. That is just silly. So if he goes 8-8...dont be shocked.

We were mediocre with Cutler as the starter. Without a viable replacement we are bottom of the barrel.

[pnbronco]

What if..........

What if.........

What if.........


I cant believe everyone is arguing over IFS and BUTS

You know OB this seems like such a great opening for something witty but I've had a bad cold for over a week now and I got nothing. Probably 2 weeks from now something will pop into my head and I'll go darn that would of worked..:D

[OB]

You know OB this seems like such a great opening for something witty but I've had a bad cold for over a week now and I got nothing. Probably 2 weeks from now something will pop into my head and I'll go darn that would of worked..:D

If IFS and BUTS were candies and nuts, oh what a part it'd be

OK so thats old - but its all i got ;)

[omac]

Their handled differently based upon their character. Terrell Owens is a great player but gets let go/traded because he cant handle himself or his emotions. Elway, Brady, Manning, etc. get handled differently because their character is just as great as their talent. Jay probably would have been handled better had he not gone into meltdown mode. You know, maybe McD toyed with the trade senario to see how Cutler would react? Maybe he wanted to see what kind of resolve his QB had when faced with a dilemma that he couldnt control? If that is the case than Cutler failed miserably and maybe it has spoken to what kind of player Jay will turn out to be. I think in the end loyalty with big name stars starts with how you handle things that arent in your control. Generally the players who cry the most to the media about unfairness are the ones who dont end up with rings. When those players make it more about them than the team, the team wont go to bat for them when it matters most.

Please, look for the article posted in one of the threads here taken from 1990. Elway had the image of an immature QB. The Colts definitely saw him as such when he refused to play for them. Elway in that article admitted that he was going to change. He was a regular guy too, with flaws of his own, before history rewrote itself and he became always perfect.

Was Marcus Allen a malcontent for not wanting to play for Al Davis? I believe in the team concept, but I also value the player.

[Northman]

Please, look for the article posted in one of the threads here taken from 1990. Elway had the image of an immature QB. The Colts definitely saw him as such when he refused to play for them. Elway in that article admitted that he was going to change. He was a regular guy too, with flaws of his own, before history rewrote itself and he became always perfect.

Was Marcus Allen a malcontent for not wanting to play for Al Davis? I believe in the team concept, but I also value the player.

Elway had already been to 3 SB's so he had a right to be a little pissy. Same with Allen. Next.....

[omac]

It's a no win for McD. What happens if he makes that committment and Jay has peaked? What if he never has another good game? What if he cant handle McD's system? Then McD keeps sending him out there. The fans get pissed...but hey...he made a committment.

Truth is there's a proper way to handle players, in order to earn their trust and respect, and different coaches have different ways to get that objective. Shanahan was very much a players coach, and the players respected him for it. Petrino sucked at it, and he was vilified by his players in Atlanta. Parcels and Belichick have similar, hard nosed styles, but they have a reputation that backs them up. There are ways to make players feel wanted, and that's important if you want them to give their all.

You'd never hear Tony Dunghy admit to saying he could trade Peyton Manning. Marty Schottenheimer fought for his QB, Drew Brees. The unfortunate thing for McDaniels is that he was caught in trade talks regarding the franchise QB; if he really wanted to keep Cutler here, he would know how to say the right things. It's part of being a coach, and in his case, a GM too.

[omac]

Elway had already been to 3 SB's so he had a right to be a little pissy. Same with Allen. Next.....

So wait, you just contradicted yourself that no one is untradeable, and that no one is above the team. I guess you do see my side of this conversation, and agree with it. :cheers:

[Northman]

So wait, you just contradicted yourself that no one is untradeable, and that no one is above the team. I guess you do see my side of this conversation, and agree with it. :cheers:

Not at all. Had Reeves succeeding in trading John Elway i wouldnt have abandoned the Denver Broncos as my team. Maybe you would but my loyalty as a fan stays with the team. I would of wished John well wherever he may have gone but i wouldnt turn in tickets, cancel tv, pout and stomp my feet just because a player i liked got traded or cut. My general point was John, Marcus, etc. all had more leverage when it came to what they were whining about. Jay doesnt have that. Manning, Brady, they have it. Surprise surprise, Cassell doesnt and he WANTED to remain a backup in NE.

[TXBRONC]

I am of the opinion that no one single party is fully at fault here....Ownership, Cutler, and Mc(insert cleverness here) are all to fault for this mess.

I was listening to Mike and Mike this morning and Clayton was asked if he were to asses blame how would he see it. In his opinion it would be 70% to McDaniels and 30% to Cutler.

[OB]

Opinionos are like ******** - everyones got one and most of them stink :beer:

[omac]

Not at all. Had Reeves succeeding in trading John Elway i wouldnt have abandoned the Denver Broncos as my team. Maybe you would but my loyalty as a fan stays with the team. I would of wished John well wherever he may have gone but i wouldnt turn in tickets, cancel tv, pout and stomp my feet just because a player i liked got traded or cut. My general point was John, Marcus, etc. all had more leverage when it came to what they were whining about. Jay doesnt have that. Manning, Brady, they have it. Surprise surprise, Cassell doesnt and he WANTED to remain a backup in NE.

You just said it was okay for Elway to act the way he did because he'd been to 3 SBs. It was okay for Elway to put his wishes over the team, and get Reeves fired as the result. Just as I said Magic put his wishes above the team when he wouldn't work with Westhead and got him fired. You've contradicted your point about players not being above the team. John forced Pat to make a decision, and he did.

On your point about leverage, Jay obviously has it, because he will be able to get what he wanted: to be traded.

[Northman]

You just said it was okay for Elway to act the way he did because he'd been to 3 SBs. It was okay for Elway to put his wishes over the team, and get Reeves fired as the result. Just as I said Magic put his wishes above the team when he wouldn't work with Westhead and got him fired. You've contradicted your point about players not being above the team. John forced Pat to make a decision, and he did.

On your point about leverage, Jay obviously has it, because he will be able to get what he wanted: to be traded.


Your wrong but your free to feel that way. Carry on.

[TXBRONC]

I have had nothing good to say about McDaniels, you might want to read my posts before accusing me of things clay. I was hoping Cutler was going to stay, I think he has skills (numchuck skills) but his immaturity and LACK OF COMPOSURE got the best of him.

I am pissed, as all of us should be. If you aren't pissed, you aren't a Broncos fan

I'm not pissed at anyone. I am very disappointed in both sides. Jay should have return the calls he's been getting and I don't think McDaniels has handle this situation well from the being.

[broncobryce]

I was listening to Mike and Mike this morning and Clayton was asked if he were to asses blame how would he see it. In his opinion it would be 70% to McDaniels and 30% to Cutler.

Adam Schein and Mr. Wilcox (I can't remember how to spell his first name) put the blame on the front office as well. They said if you had a new boss come in and you found out he was trying to get rid of you, but it fell through, wouldn't you consider your days numbered?

[GEM]

I was listening to Mike and Mike this morning and Clayton was asked if he were to asses blame how would he see it. In his opinion it would be 70% to McDaniels and 30% to Cutler.


Schlereth said the exact opposite on Mike & Mike this morning. 70% Cutler 30% McDaniels. He also said it shows what kind of teammate Cutler is... he says when it all boils down, you play for those guys in the locker room.

[Northman]

Schlereth said the exact opposite on Mike & Mike this morning. 70% Cutler 30% McDaniels. He also said it shows what kind of teammate Cutler is... he says when it all boils down, you play for those guys in the locker room.

Yep.

[NightTrainLayne]

I'm still relatively young. .. .but any time I've seen a new boss come in, I've seen a lot of changes take place. I've NEVER seen a new boss come in and not make changes. . .and by changes I mean hiring/firing.

There's usually a really good reason that a new boss is brought in, and if you're part of the team, you either try to work with the new guy, or set yourself apart. . ..but if you decide to set yourself apart, be on the lookout for the axe.

[Mike]

The medias speculation is nothing more than what you see around here. Especially anything from E!SPN. They know about as much of the facts as we do.

[TXBRONC]

Again...we have a mediocre team and a rough schedule. With or without Cutler, we cant automatically expect complete success from any coach in just one year. That is just silly. So if he goes 8-8...dont be shocked.

At this point I think we had a better chance of going at least 8-8 with Cutler now that he will be gone I'm not so sure.

[omac]

Your wrong but your free to feel that way. Carry on.

Come on, man, to reiterate your posts ....


No one is bigger than the team and Cutler should not have to be coddled in order to play for the Denver Broncos.

then you say ...


Elway had already been to 3 SB's so he had a right to be a little pissy. Same with Allen. Next.....

What Cutler wanted from McDaniels was a commitment to his future. What Elway wanted was Reeves gone. So McDaniels shouldn't coddle Cutler, yet Pat chooses to make Elway happy to the point of firing Reeves, and that's okay behavior for a player, based on your criteria of no one being above the team?

I know what you're getting at, but you're really agreeing with me that despite the team concept, players are treated differently depending on their worth to the team.

[weazel]

Schlereth said the exact opposite on Mike & Mike this morning. 70% Cutler 30% McDaniels. He also said it shows what kind of teammate Cutler is... he says when it all boils down, you play for those guys in the locker room.

coming from the people who matter... the teammates

[bcbronc]

You just said it was okay for Elway to act the way he did because he'd been to 3 SBs. It was okay for Elway to put his wishes over the team, and get Reeves fired as the result. Just as I said Magic put his wishes above the team when he wouldn't work with Westhead and got him fired. You've contradicted your point about players not being above the team. John forced Pat to make a decision, and he did.

On your point about leverage, Jay obviously has it, because he will be able to get what he wanted: to be traded.

not comparable at all. first, it wasn't Elways "wishes" that got Reeves fired. it came down to Bowlen having to choose between his coach and his superstar QB, and Bowlen chose Elway.

But Reeves had already had a long, somewhat successful, stint as Bronco's coach. Reeves was at a point where he felt he had taken the franchise as far as he could with JE and wanted to go in another direction. Bowlen disagree with Reeves, and Bowlen felt Reeves had simply taken the organization as far as Reeves could--period.

In this case, we've got a guy just hired by Bowlen, not a coach that's been here for years. Bowlen is confident in his hiring process, and it is JAY that is refusing to talk to either.

Elway/Reeves is nothing at all like McJaygate, other than the positions involved.

[omac]

not comparable at all. first, it wasn't Elways "wishes" that got Reeves fired. it came down to Bowlen having to choose between his coach and his superstar QB, and Bowlen chose Elway.

But Reeves had already had a long, somewhat successful, stint as Bronco's coach. Reeves was at a point where he felt he had taken the franchise as far as he could with JE and wanted to go in another direction. Bowlen disagree with Reeves, and Bowlen felt Reeves had simply taken the organization as far as Reeves could--period.

In this case, we've got a guy just hired by Bowlen, not a coach that's been here for years. Bowlen is confident in his hiring process, and it is JAY that is refusing to talk to either.

Elway/Reeves is nothing at all like McJaygate, other than the positions involved.

Those are good points, but his argument in this scenario was that no one is above the team, then I view it as him contradicting his statement when he says it's okay for Elway, because he'd been to 3 SBs.

So in that sense, I feel he is agreeing with me that certain players are treated differently depending on their worth to the team. Whether or not Elway asked for Reeves to get fired, the general consensus is that Pat did it to keep Elway happy. Maybe that's the truth, maybe it's not.

But the point is still that despite the overall concept of a team, in pro sports, players will be treated differently depending on their worth. The general rule is to keep the superstars happy.

[Northman]

Come on, man, to reiterate your posts ....



then you say ...



What Cutler wanted from McDaniels was a commitment to his future. What Elway wanted was Reeves gone. So McDaniels shouldn't coddle Cutler, yet Pat chooses to make Elway happy to the point of firing Reeves, and that's okay behavior for a player, based on your criteria of no one being above the team?

I know what you're getting at, but you're really agreeing with me that despite the team concept, players are treated differently depending on their worth to the team.


I never argued that they werent treated differently. If you read the post where i said "character" goes a long way you would realize that Elway had more value and leveage to behave that way. It still doesnt mean that Elway wasnt tradeable. But he had already accomplished something on a major level which made the choice more difficult for Bowlen. Although i myself wouldnt have try to trade Jay i cant say his worth on this team is as much as a guy like Elway. I just cant say that. And maybe down the road Jay proves to be an Elite QB but he just isnt there yet especially with his attitude. We've discussed this before about how many QB's can have a lot of talent (Jeff George, etc) but they dont have the mindset to be in the Elite. If Tom Brady goes out next year and starts behaving irrationally and whine at least he has a solid resume to fall back on. Sure, Jay has a lot of "potential" but there is also a huge "risk" involved because of his mental instability. At this point Jay is not worth the headache that he has become. As i tried to point out earlier, if McD used that trade senario as a test to see how Jay would react then Jay failed. Rather than go to the media Jay probably should of gotten together man on man to see what was going on. You just cant put Jay in the same discussion with Elway or any other Elite Qb at this point which makes him more expendable than an Elite guy. If your a player who cant handle adversity (ie TO) than you do become just like every other guy. Had Jay handled this more professionally i can guarantee you that he wouldnt be traded. Instead, he chose to handle it like the way he has and now he will be gone. If that was his ultimate goal than he is getting what he wanted and thats ok. But when you come out and say you like playing with you teammates yet your actions speak otherwise than i cant say i believe you. I hope that makes sense.

[BroncoJoe]

North, you're confusing the hell out of me.

[Northman]

North, you're confusing the hell out of me.

Im good at that. But it all makes sense to me in my own twisted world.

[pnbronco]

I don't know, I'm disappointed in all camps right now, Jay, McD, front office. But for some strange reason I do have a little optimism. Maybe in the long run, not sure how long, it will be best for everyone.

The last 3 years have been tough on everyone from the Jake/Jay wars, Darrent's and Damien's death, to the injuries after injuries and trying to make things work with duck tape. I really hate change I mean really hate it, but if this team can function as a team again I'll be happy. I'll still watch, heck the Avs are 29th out 30 teams and I still watch and cheer/cry. So I'm hoping for a good trade, a great draft and a Bronco team that works together.

[omac]

I never argued that they werent treated differently. If you read the post where i said "character" goes a long way you would realize that Elway had more value and leveage to behave that way. It still doesnt mean that Elway wasnt tradeable. But he had already accomplished something on a major level which made the choice more difficult for Bowlen. Although i myself wouldnt have try to trade Jay i cant say his worth on this team is as much as a guy like Elway. I just cant say that. And maybe down the road Jay proves to be an Elite QB but he just isnt there yet especially with his attitude. We've discussed this before about how many QB's can have a lot of talent (Jeff George, etc) but they dont have the mindset to be in the Elite. If Tom Brady goes out next year and starts behaving irrationally and whine at least he has a solid resume to fall back on. Sure, Jay has a lot of "potential" but there is also a huge "risk" involved because of his mental instability. At this point Jay is not worth the headache that he has become. As i tried to point out earlier, if McD used that trade senario as a test to see how Jay would react then Jay failed. Rather than go to the media Jay probably should of gotten together man on man to see what was going on. You just cant put Jay in the same discussion with Elway or any other Elite Qb at this point which makes him more expendable than an Elite guy. If your a player who cant handle adversity (ie TO) than you do become just like every other guy. Had Jay handled this more professionally i can guarantee you that he wouldnt be traded. Instead, he chose to handle it like the way he has and now he will be gone. If that was his ultimate goal than he is getting what he wanted and thats ok. But when you come out and say you like playing with you teammates yet your actions speak otherwise than i cant say i believe you. I hope that makes sense.

Okay so we agree that teams treat players differently depending on their worth to the team. On value and leverage, though, we'll have to disagree. Right now, Jay is a highly sought after commodity that will net the Broncos some good value, and he was able to use his leverage to force a trade. You say if Jay handled the situation differently, then he wouldn't be traded; I say when Jay could not get the commitment he wanted from McDaniels, he wanted to be traded. That's cool though. :cheers:

It was obvious from his earlier statement about playing for his teammates that he was still thinking at the time of playing for the Broncos, and was pissed at McDaniels. Later, he even said that he thought that after their face to face meeting, they'd shake hands and all would be well. Unfortunately, it's their face to face meeting that made him believe he couldn't continue to be a Bronco under McDaniels. In the previous statement, he thought they could still work things out; in the later statement, he'd decided a trade was best for his career. That was a drastic change in scenario. In the end, players have to make choices that they believe will be good for their career.