Manning's ARM Strength still not there YET

[BORDERLINE]

I HATE to be a Debbie Downer, I fully have supported Tebow last year and this offseason. While the opportunity to pick up Manning is too good to pass up. I'm all for getting him under center in Denver. WE become instant SB contenders with him calling the plays.

I've posted a couple of questions about his health in the 6+ Peyton Manning threads (not even with the Broncos yet and giving Tebow a run for his money LOL) Yet no one responds?

Why is the fan base so captivated by acquiring Manning even though he MIGHT not be 100% or ever be 100%? Is it more about driving Tebow out of town??? I think that plays a part in IT.

Like I posted if Manning is left with a Chad Pennington arm and that's the only lingering effect of his 3-4 NECK surgeries I'm all for bringing HIM IN. Has he worked out for the Broncos? Have the DOCS looked at him? Are WE just hoping HE get's healthy? What's going on there....



While teams are lining up for quarterback Peyton Manning, there is still the question of his health and arm strength.

According to Jason Cole of Yahoo Sports, three NFL sources that have seen medical reports on quarterback Peyton Manning say the improvement of his arm strength appears to be going at a promising pace, although a full recovery is still far off.


http://http://theredzone.org/BlogDescription/tabid/61/EntryId/24451/Report--Return-of-Manning-s-arm-strength-still-far-off/Default.aspx

[Northman]

Its a long time between now and pre-season. Plenty of time to get his arm back to full strength.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I just posted the following in another thread, but it is appropriate here: Article was posted March 9th


Fans hear the words "neck fusion" and wonder why Peyton Manning is even considering playing again, fearful he'll risk a career-ending injury -- or worse -- the next time he takes a hit.

But safety isn't Manning's issue, several spine specialists said. Arm strength is.

Manning's surgically repaired neck will be able to take a hit just fine once the fusion is healed, with the bone actually stronger than others in his neck. Nerves are delicate, however, and only time will tell if they'll recover enough for the 35-year-old four-time NFL MVP to be the quarterback he once was.

rest - http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d...sk-is-very-low

[wayninja]

There's a large portion of our fanbase that would jump at seeing ANYONE else but Tebow in here. Including, but not limited to, the scientifically re-animated corpse of Johnny Unitas.

So it doesn't really surprise me that some people won't even bother to question or care how Manning's arm is, how old he's getting, or how rusty he is.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Its a long time between now and pre-season. Plenty of time to get his arm back to full strength.

From the article I just posted:


Nerves are delicate, however, and only time will tell if they'll recover enough for the 35-year-old four-time NFL MVP to be the quarterback he once was.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d...sk-is-very-low

from article, it does not appear that arm strength will automatically come back, with time

[BORDERLINE]

So it doesn't really surprise me that some people won't even bother to question or care how Manning's arm is, how old he's getting, or how rusty he is.

I'm not questioning Manning's AGE or RUST. Manning NEVER was beaten like a Mike Vick, Big Ben. His Body i'm sure is still capable of playing 3-5 years more.

THE QUESTION IS HIS ARM. And it's A VALID CONCERN that some of the fan base is overlooking.

[MasterShake]

There's a large portion of our fanbase that would jump at seeing ANYONE else but Tebow in here. Including, but not limited to, the scientifically re-animated corpse of Johnny Unitas.

So it doesn't really surprise me that some people won't even bother to question or care how Manning's arm is, how old he's getting, or how rusty he is.

This is true with me to an extent. Tebow is a project and a great guy, but I'm not sure if he's a good fit for Denver. You have to build an entire offense around him, including backup QBs. I just don't think its fair to either Denver or Tebow to make that kind of commitment in a town that is used to putting a Super Bowl as their top priority every season. My ideal scenario still involves us getting Manning and sending Tebow to Jacksonville where most of his fanbase is. They have new management there and can take him as a project from the ground up. Like I said earlier, going after Manning like they did tells me all I need to know about how EFX feels about him in the short term and they know a hell of a lot more about football than I do. My dumbass will be watching either way, so I'll just continue to be a happy idiot. A happy idiot that will not buy another player jersey, mind you, but happy nonetheless.

To the question of Manning's recovery, I still think that accuracy, timing, and reading defenses is more important that arm strength so as long as he throws better than me we should be ok. And I'm TERRIBLE.

[Northman]

From the article I just posted:



http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d...sk-is-very-low

from article, it does not appear that arm strength will automatically come back, with time

But doesnt rule it out either.

[BORDERLINE]

CAROL the link doesn't go to the article. I can't find it on the news section

[Northman]

I'm not questioning Manning's AGE or RUST. Manning NEVER was beaten like a Mike Vick, Big Ben. His Body i'm sure is still capable of playing 3-5 years more.

THE QUESTION IS HIS ARM. And it's A VALID CONCERN that some of the fan base is overlooking.

No one is overlooking it. But no one is writing him off either.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

CAROL the link doesn't go to the article. I can't find it on the news section

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8277b4ef/article/doctors-say-peyton-mannings-injury-risk-is-very-low

[wayninja]

This is true with me to an extent. Tebow is a project and a great guy, but I'm not sure if he's a good fit for Denver. You have to build an entire offense around him, including backup QBs. I just don't think its fair to either Denver or Tebow to make that kind of commitment in a town that is used to putting a Super Bowl as their top priority every season. My ideal scenario still involves us getting Manning and sending Tebow to Jacksonville where most of his fanbase is. They have new management there and can take him as a project from the ground up. Like I said earlier, going after Manning like they did tells me all I need to know about how EFX feels about him in the short term and they know a hell of a lot more about football than I do. My dumbass will be watching either way, so I'll just continue to be a happy idiot. A happy idiot that will not buy another player jersey, mind you, but happy nonetheless.

To the question of Manning's recovery, I still think that accuracy, timing, and reading defenses is more important that arm strength so as long as he throws better than me we should be ok. And I'm TERRIBLE.

It just seems weird that they played Tebow at all in this case. If they never really intended to build around him and give him a real shot, why not put Quinn in when Orton faltered? Why not trade Tebow long ago?

I feel bad for the guy. Ultimately, I want what is best for the Broncos, but they put him in during the middle of the season without a first team camp and he did way better than anyone expected. What else can the guy do to earn a shot? I suppose nothing.

[BORDERLINE]

No one is overlooking it. But no one is writing him off either.

YES it is being overlooked North. No one is talking about it.

Jeez, there's more talk about getting the number 18 un-retired.

And i'm all for that by the way, but like I said have the Broncos seen him work out? Have the DR seen him? I mean all this is a BIG mystery but a very important ISSUE that seems to be non-exsistent right now because the season is still months away.

[MasterShake]

It just seems weird that they played Tebow at all in this case. If they never really intended to build around him and give him a real shot, why not put Quinn in when Orton faltered? Why not trade Tebow long ago?

I feel bad for the guy. Ultimately, I want what is best for the Broncos, but they put him in during the middle of the season without a first team camp and he did way better than anyone expected. What else can the guy do to earn a shot? I suppose nothing.

Heres what I think happened *puts on tinfoil hat* They put Tebow in because the season looked like a lost cause anyway. They could pacify the fans and play out the string and have a shot at a top 5 draft in a QB heavy class. Then Tebow goes and screws everything up by having a magical season and endearing himself into our hearts.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

No one is overlooking it. But no one is writing him off either.

Signing Manning isn't just a risk that he might not be the same guy, it's an expensive risk. Signing Manning right now (knowing he'll probably eat up roughly half of our available cap space) would be like signing Mario Williams if he was coming off microfracture knee surgery, hadn't fully recovered and not knowing if he ever would, not being able to work him out, and still making him the highest paid DE in the league.

I'm not against signing Manning. I don't necessarily like the idea of ditching Tebow, but if it happens, it happens. If I knew Manning could be the same guy for 2-3 more years sure, pull the trigger. I'm concerned that Manning will never be the guy he once was and will struggle here with an O-line that isn't the best at pass protection and has young/inexperienced WRs. His strongest quality is his ability to read a defense, change the play if necessary, and fit pinpoint passes into small windows. If he loses the strength to fit those passes into those windows or loses some of the accuracy required, he becomes Kyle Orton - an immobile pocket passer with questionable accuracy and arm strength. It would be a shame, and be terrible for us, if Manning came in only to go out like Kyle... with a MUCH higher price tag and cap hit.

Honestly, bringing in Manning right now and paying him what he'll command is a Shanahan-esque type of risk. Shanny always overpaid for vets past their prime. That's exactly what we'd be doing trying to catch lightning in a bottle.

[Northman]

Heres what I think happened *puts on tinfoil hat* They put Tebow in because the season looked like a lost cause anyway. They could pacify the fans and play out the string and have a shot at a top 5 draft in a QB heavy class. Then Tebow goes and screws everything up by having a magical season and endearing himself into our hearts.

Your sig is awesome by the way.

[Northman]

Signing Manning isn't just a risk that he might not be the same guy, it's an expensive risk. Signing Manning right now (knowing he'll probably eat up roughly half of our available cap space) would be like signing Mario Williams if he was coming off microfracture knee surgery, hadn't fully recovered and not knowing if he ever would, not being able to work him out, and still making him the highest paid DE in the league.

I'm not against signing Manning. I don't necessarily like the idea of ditching Tebow, but if it happens, it happens. If I knew Manning could be the same guy for 2-3 more years sure, pull the trigger. I'm concerned that Manning will never be the guy he once was and will struggle here with an O-line that isn't the best at pass protection and has young/inexperienced WRs. His strongest quality is his ability to read a defense, change the play if necessary, and fit pinpoint passes into small windows. If he loses the strength to fit those passes into those windows or loses some of the accuracy required, he becomes Kyle Orton - an immobile pocket passer with questionable accuracy and arm strength. It would be a shame, and be terrible for us, if Manning came in only to go out like Kyle.

Everything is a risk HP. Even taking a guy like Mario is a risk. We could sign Mario to a big contract and he could blow out his knee in TC. Stranger things have happened. The only question for you as a fan is signing Manning worth the risk. For me, i say yes.

[wayninja]

Heres what I think happened *puts on tinfoil hat* They put Tebow in because the season looked like a lost cause anyway. They could pacify the fans and play out the string and have a shot at a top 5 draft in a QB heavy class. Then Tebow goes and screws everything up by having a magical season and endearing himself into our hearts.

It's sad that the majority of our football strategy comes from the movie Major League.

[BORDERLINE]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8277b4ef/article/doctors-say-peyton-mannings-injury-risk-is-very-low

that leaves me with more questions than answers. The article leaves you with a wait and see approach and IF manning does get hit. He "Presumably" should be OK.

this is a post on the comments section from some dude. He looks to a Chargirls fan but his view is LEGIT. I agree...

IT'S ABSOLUTELY CRAZY THAT ALL OF THESE TEAMS ARE INTERESTED IN PEYTON AND NO BODY REALLY KNOWS IF HIS ARM WILL EVER BE THE SAME. His neck is fine. The issue (as referenced from the article above) is the nerve to his throwing arm. IF PEYTON IS ABLE TO PLAY THEN I SAY GET OUT ON THE PRACTICE FILED AND PROVE IT.....If a team is going to pay him a huge sum of money to play football...THEN PROVE THAT YOU CAN DO THAT.....AM I WRONG? - DOLTS Fan

[wayninja]

I also like how we are willing now to go get protection for a QB now that Manning is thinking of coming here. Like it's just dawned on us that this is important for a QB to succeed.

[Northman]

I dont know what happened at one of his workouts (at Duke i believe) but it doesnt seem like Manning is opposed to showing what he can do. And who knows what these teams are requiring of Manning before they want to sign him.

[MOtorboat]

that leaves me with more questions than answers. The article leaves you with a wait and see approach and IF manning does get hit. He "Presumably" should be OK.

this is a post on the comments section from some dude. He looks to a Chargirls fan but his view is LEGIT. I agree...

IT'S ABSOLUTELY CRAZY THAT ALL OF THESE TEAMS ARE INTERESTED IN PEYTON AND NO BODY REALLY KNOWS IF HIS ARM WILL EVER BE THE SAME. His neck is fine. The issue (as referenced from the article above) is the nerve to his throwing arm. IF PEYTON IS ABLE TO PLAY THEN I SAY GET OUT ON THE PRACTICE FILED AND PROVE IT.....If a team is going to pay him a huge sum of money to play football...THEN PROVE THAT YOU CAN DO THAT.....AM I WRONG? - DOLTS Fan

Or.

He's fine.

[BORDERLINE]

I dont know what happened at one of his workouts (at Duke i believe) but it doesnt seem like Manning is opposed to showing what he can do. And who knows what these teams are requiring of Manning before they want to sign him.

well the question I ask is have the Broncos had Manning worked out for them? And the DR. checked him out?

If NO, then why do SO MANY FANS want him not to leave Denver without a CONTRACT!!!

Like I've stated I want Manning to come here but his ARM IS A BIG ? that no one has an answer to..

[BORDERLINE]

Or.

He's fine.

I guess FACTS are out the window in this thread NOW. SMH

[Northman]

well the question I ask is have the Broncos had Manning worked out for them? And the DR. checked him out?

If NO, then why do SO MANY FANS want him not to leave Denver without a CONTRACT!!!

Like I've stated I want Manning to come here but his ARM IS A BIG ? that no one has an answer to..


Well, not necessarily. So far we are just reading speculation from the press. We do not know what the doctors nor what has been said in the meetings with the teams. Denver may very well have said or laid out conditions themselves before signing Manning. And maybe Manning has already done what they needed we dont know.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I have no problem with the Broncos bringing Manning in. The problem I will have is if they trade Tebow. If the question is whether Manning's arm strength will ever be what it was, what good is it if he can not throw like he did before? And, if Tebow is traded, then what? It will either be Quinn (if they resign him), Weber, or a rookie drafted - which then means - ONCE AGAIN - WE START OVER AT QB. To me, it only makes sense to keep Tebow.

[wayninja]

If NO, then why do SO MANY FANS want him not to leave Denver without a CONTRACT!!!

It's obvious. If there were a report that Denver was in talks with an '79 AMC Pacer to be the next Denver starting QB, there would be folks clamoring the deal to get fast-tracked.

It's easy to jump on anything remotely logical as an alternative and looking at specifics be damned.

[broncobryce]

I guess FACTS are out the window in this thread NOW. SMH

Hate tends to cloud the mind of some

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Everything is a risk HP. Even taking a guy like Mario is a risk. We could sign Mario to a big contract and he could blow out his knee in TC. Stranger things have happened. The only question for you as a fan is signing Manning worth the risk. For me, i say yes.

Of course everything is a risk. The key is to hedge your bets properly and knowing what acceptable risk is. Seriously though, does anyone here actually believe that Peyton Manning, if signed, could take this team to the Superbowl? He only did it ONCE with an extremely veteran team where everyone had been together in the same system for YEARS.

People think Manning guarantees a Lombardi Trophy and it's just not so. This team, even with Manning on it, really isn't good enough to run the gauntlet in the playoffs vs teams like Baltimore and NE even with some of that "luck" we had last year. Even at full strength, Manning doesn't play defense, pass/run block, or catch the ball. The difference is, with Tebow and a young team it was a pleasant/exciting surprise to win games and make the playoffs. The fans jumped on (except those who hate Tebow) because it was fun and exciting. With Manning, winning will be expected. If we don't win at least 10 games with Manning under center, it will be seen as a COMPLETE failure. The fanbase will turn on the organization and on Manning.

Injecting a 36 year old vet HOFer into a team that looks to be trying to get younger and is in the middle of a rebuild is a recipe for disaster. Everyone will expect immediate results and I just don't think it will happen. This team still isn't good enough for that and doesn't have the cohesion and experience. By the time that level is reached, Manning will be retired and we'll be starting over again looking for the next Manning to run the system we have in place. We all know how easy it is to find guys like that...

We'll just have to see how it plays out. If we bring in Manning, we're really going to have to bust our asses to get pieces around him to win now. He doesn't have the time left for us to build cheaply through the draft and with 2nd/3rd tier FAs.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Well, not necessarily. So far we are just reading speculation from the press. We do not know what the doctors nor what has been said in the meetings with the teams. Denver may very well have said or laid out conditions themselves before signing Manning. And maybe Manning has already done what they needed we dont know.

The article I posted was not speculation from the press. It contains actual quotes from Doctors, which have weighed in on Manning.

[Northman]

I have no problem with the Broncos bringing Manning in. The problem I will have is if they trade Tebow. If the question is whether Manning's arm strength will ever be what it was, what good is it if he can not throw like he did before? And, if Tebow is traded, then what? It will either be Quinn (if they resign him), Weber, or a rookie drafted - which then means - ONCE AGAIN - WE START OVER AT QB. To me, it only makes sense to keep Tebow.

Logically yes, but if Elway and company feel that Tebow doesnt fit what they need in a QB than they would do what they feel is best for the team.

[wayninja]

I have no problem with the Broncos bringing Manning in. The problem I will have is if they trade Tebow. If the question is whether Manning's arm strength will ever be what it was, what good is it if he can not throw like he did before? And, if Tebow is traded, then what? It will either be Quinn (if they resign him), Weber, or a rookie drafted - which then means - ONCE AGAIN - WE START OVER AT QB. To me, it only makes sense to keep Tebow.

Exactly. It would be dumb not to go after Manning. But it's also dumb to throw away the only QB to give you a division Title since 2005.

[MOtorboat]

I guess FACTS are out the window in this thread NOW. SMH

Oh dear lord. What facts?

You are as privy to his medical records as I am.

:rolleyes:

[Northman]

The article I posted was not speculation from the press. It contains actual quotes from Doctors, which have weighed in on Manning.

Are they Manning's doctors? Or just doctors talking about the injury itself? Not every case is the same and unless they are doctors actually working on Manning its still speculation. They have no idea how far along Manning is.

[BORDERLINE]

Well, not necessarily. So far we are just reading speculation from the press. We do not know what the doctors nor what has been said in the meetings with the teams. Denver may very well have said or laid out conditions themselves before signing Manning. And maybe Manning has already done what they needed we dont know.

OK

But then why did much of the fan base wanted him to not leave DENVER without a contract? If WE don't know what happened behind closed doors how do you justify that?

To Blindly support a player that you have no assurance (at the moment) that HE is good to go would make that fan base similar to the one many despise (Tebow Nuthuggers). Would you not agree?....

[Northman]

Oh dear lord. What facts?

You are as privy to his medical records as I am.

:rolleyes:


Well, apparently not. Now you can just be any random doctor and know the extent of Manning's injury.

[wayninja]

OK

But then why did much of the fan base wanted him to not leave DENVER without a contract? If WE don't know what happened behind closed doors how do you justify that?

To Blindly support a player that you have no assurance (at the moment) that HE is good to go would make that fan base similar to the one many despise (Tebow Nuthuggers). Would you not agree?....

To play Devil's advocate; The assumption here is that Denver would not be going after Peyton if Denver had reservations about his ability. It doesn't matter what us in the public know as long as we trust EFX to do the necessary due diligence before going after him.

If they go after him, we should conclude that he is (or will be) good to go.

[BORDERLINE]

Are they Manning's doctors? Or just doctors talking about the injury itself? Not every case is the same and unless they are doctors actually working on Manning its still speculation. They have no idea how far along Manning is.

Like Manning's doctors would say. "Yeah he's still not good. He might not ever be the same, But we expect He will improve with time".

Every case is different I get that North. But that DR was speaking in general about similar injuries. And what HE can expect.

[Northman]

OK

But then why did much of the fan base wanted him to not leave DENVER without a contract? If WE don't know what happened behind closed doors how do you justify that?

To Blindly support a player that you have no assurance (at the moment) that HE is good to go would make that fan base similar to the one many despise (Tebow Nuthuggers). Would you not agree?....

Yes and no.

If we are talking "nuthuggers" there is still a difference and the difference is one guy has done something at the pro level and the other has had "moments". So for me its easy to understand the "mania" if we call it that over Manning vs Tebow.

But to your other point. So far on this board ive only seen one guy that didnt want Peyton to leave Denver. I wont mention any names but it starts with Clay and ends in More. I made some jokes about it yesterday in terms of the Howard Griffith signing a few years ago but i knew Manning was going to talk to more teams. You say that blindly supporting a player who has no assurances is a bad thing but yet havent we been doing that with Tebow? And keep in mind again Tebow hasnt done anything on the level that Manning has. Sure, Manning has a question mark but again this comes down to whether you personally think the risk is worth it. For me, i think it is. For others, not so much.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Are they Manning's doctors? Or just doctors talking about the injury itself? Not every case is the same and unless they are doctors actually working on Manning its still speculation. They have no idea how far along Manning is.

From article:

But safety isn't Manning's issue, several spine specialists said. Arm strength is.

With the doctors who are being quoted in the article being spine specialists, I would assume they know what they are talking about in regards to what the procedures on Manning were, etc.

[jhildebrand]

Heres what I think happened *puts on tinfoil hat* They put Tebow in because the season looked like a lost cause anyway. They could pacify the fans and play out the string and have a shot at a top 5 draft in a QB heavy class. Then Tebow goes and screws everything up by having a magical season and endearing himself into our hearts.

No real tin hat there as far as I can tell. I hypothesized that Fox put Tebow in during the Dallas PS game so early-while the Cowboys' #1 D was still there-to watch him flounder and show the fans just how bad he sucks. Problem is he had a MUCH BETTER GAME than Orton.

[Northman]

Like Manning's doctors would say. "Yeah he's still not good. He might not ever be the same, But we expect He will improve with time".

Every case is different I get that North. But that DR was speaking in general about similar injuries. And what HE can expect.

With everything else you said i agree except the comment about his doctor being straight up with him. You do realize a doctor would put himself at risk of a lawsuit by lying to his patient right? If his doctor said he was fine to play and then Manning dropped dead from the injury that he had that doctor would be in a world of hurt. Sure, that example is extreme but it still applies. This isnt a case of a business negotiation, this is a guy you need to trust for your health and everything else. Im sure his doctor told him it would be a tough road to recovery but if Manning was never going to get better im sure the doctor would of stated so.

[BORDERLINE]

Oh dear lord. What facts?

You are as privy to his medical records as I am.

:rolleyes:

you implied he's OK. You threw out a comment based on what? Your 6th sense? Your trust in EFX?

I never said Manning won't be the same. I never have said He will be fine. Because I have not read or heard anything or even SEEN him throw to make me believe in either or.

[BORDERLINE]

With everything else you said i agree except the comment about his doctor being straight up with him. You do realize a doctor would put himself at risk of a lawsuit by lying to his patient right? If his doctor said he was fine to play and then Manning dropped dead from the injury that he had that doctor would be in a world of hurt. Sure, that example is extreme but it still applies. This isnt a case of a business negotiation, this is a guy you need to trust for your health and everything else. Im sure his doctor told him it would be a tough road to recovery but if Manning was never going to get better im sure the doctor would of stated so.

you got me twisted.

I'm saying it's not like the Doctor is gonna come out in public and say these things about the GUY.

I'm pretty sure HIS doctors will be all about keeping him healthy for his entire life.

[Northman]

From article:

But safety isn't Manning's issue, several spine specialists said. Arm strength is.

With the doctors who are being quoted in the article being spine specialists, I would assume they know what they are talking about in regards to what the procedures on Manning were, etc.

They have experience with the injury but are not his actual doctor. Still a difference there Carol and its still speculation on their part as they do not know the extent of his injuries or rehab.

[catfish]

With everything else you said i agree except the comment about his doctor being straight up with him. You do realize a doctor would put himself at risk of a lawsuit by lying to his patient right? If his doctor said he was fine to play and then Manning dropped dead from the injury that he had that doctor would be in a world of hurt. Sure, that example is extreme but it still applies. This isnt a case of a business negotiation, this is a guy you need to trust for your health and everything else. Im sure his doctor told him it would be a tough road to recovery but if Manning was never going to get better im sure the doctor would of stated so.



All the articles I have read about medical readiness seem to indicate that because the bone is fused there is no risk of reinjury of the bone, however it doesn't state whether ROM of the neck is affected. There is some indication that there ws some nerve damage, so my big worry is that if Peyton suffers whiplash that inflamed muscles will further damage the nerve.

That said if he is healthy he would be a major upgrade even the most ardent Tebow fan can't argue that, it is all a big risk v reward. It's just like any other gamble, it is one thing to bet $10 on black, it is a whole nother to bet 10 grand. If I thought they could get him for 8 mil I wouldn't be worried about the bet at all, 20 mil is a whole nother thing

[BORDERLINE]

You say that blindly supporting a player who has no assurances is a bad thing but yet havent we been doing that with Tebow? And keep in mind again Tebow hasnt done anything on the level that Manning has. Sure, Manning has a question mark but again this comes down to whether you personally think the risk is worth it. For me, i think it is. For others, not so much.

I can't possibly compare Manning and Tebow. There are not similarities what so ever only that they both play in the NFL.

I don't see anyone blindly support Tebow. ALL of us WITNESSED what he DID and how HE DID IT this YEAR. I hope I don't have to elaborate on his play.

The comment I made about blindly supporting Manning. Was that we HAVE NOT SEEN HIM THROW. We don't know if the Docs have looked at him. Yet MANY wanted HIM not to leave without a contract. And where getting really "jiddy"

WAYNINJA just posted a very good counter-argument against that though.

[Northman]

I don't see anyone blindly support Tebow. ALL of us WITNESSED what he DID and how HE DID IT this YEAR.

Well, we saw a guy make plays here and there but not consistently. We saw him utilized in a scheme based off smoke and mirrors that wont work again this year. And we do see people blindly supporting Tebow as we do not know if he will every improve.

[jhildebrand]

He made plays consistently when he needed to. Also this smoke and mirrors talk is just bull shit. Watch the games. They ran the gimmick for a couple of weeks. After that they worked back towards more of the offense they wanted-which Xanders and others have acknowledged publicly in interviews locally.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Again, from article:


And there's no risk in him doing so, say several doctors in the field who have not examined Manning. Dr. Robert Watkins, Manning's surgeon, is not commenting on the quarterback, his office said Thursday.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8277b4ef/article/doctors-say-peyton-mannings-injury-risk-is-very-low

Sure would help to clear things up if Manning's surgeon would comment.

[Northman]

He made plays consistently when he needed to. Also this smoke and mirrors talk is just bull shit. Watch the games. They ran the gimmick for a couple of weeks. After that they worked back towards more of the offense they wanted-which Xanders and others have acknowledged publicly in interviews locally.


We shall see. If he starts this year i highly doubt he has the same success.

[wayninja]

Well, we saw a guy make plays here and there but not consistently. We saw him utilized in a scheme based off smoke and mirrors that wont work again this year. And we do see people blindly supporting Tebow as we do not know if he will every improve.

Manning will probably be fine.

Tebow will likely not improve.

OR

Manning will probably never be the manning of old.

Tebow will continue to get better.

Or some combination of the above.

ALSO

Young QB makes some plays and not others. Tebow is unique in this capacity.

[jhildebrand]

The neck from a physical standpoint is fine. It is stronger, at least reported to be, than before. The nerve is the question. I wouldnt bet on that getting back to where it was. The injury where that was rumored to happen was YEARS ago. It took years to do the damage. It isn't going to heal in months.

[topscribe]

YES it is being overlooked North. No one is talking about it.

Jeez, there's more talk about getting the number 18 un-retired.

And i'm all for that by the way, but like I said have the Broncos seen him work out? Have the DR seen him? I mean all this is a BIG mystery but a very important ISSUE that seems to be non-exsistent right now because the season is still months away.
Apparently, EFX isn't worried about it. And, with tens of millions of dollars at stake, if there were any worries, they would be right on top of it.

If EFX isn't worried, then I'm not either. They are a whole lot closer to the situation and know a whole lot more than some news writer . . .

[Northman]

Manning will probably be fine.

Tebow will likely not improve.

OR

Manning will probably never be the manning of old.

Tebow will continue to get better.

Or some combination of the above.

ALSO

Young QB makes some plays and not others. Tebow is unique in this capacity.


So basically just a lot of opinions.

[topscribe]

The neck from a physical standpoint is fine. It is stronger, at least reported to be, than before. The nerve is the question. I wouldnt bet on that getting back to where it was. The injury where that was rumored to happen was YEARS ago. It took years to do the damage. It isn't going to heal in months.
Not necessarily. First, I would want the rumors to show up as fact.

Second, the time it took to occur does not necessarily indicate how long it would take to repair.

[Northman]

Apparently, EFX isn't worried about it. And, with tens of millions of dollars at stake, if there were any worries, they would be right on top of it.

If EFX isn't worried, then I'm not either. They are a whole lot closer to the situation and know a whole lot more than some news writer . . .

Yep.

Thats why Elway and company get paid the big bucks.

[jhildebrand]

We shall see. If he starts this year i highly doubt he has the same success.

What is clear is IF he starts this year, we can all be sure it will be the "Orton" style offense of throwing from the pocket and staying in the pocket. No more improvisation. I think the running game will be much the same with some zone read. They have no choice. That is the only way to truly assess the guy which is what they set out to do and I am not so sure they accomplished.

As for Manning. I can't see how AZ plays strong. They gave Kolb a Garda truck full of cash. Outside of that there isn't a lot to like other than the NFCW is weak outside of SF but SF will dominate again. KC.....please :lol: Miami-could be nice but I don't think that appeals to him. I don't see the strong football structure Manning clearly has an affection for. His 1st 2 visits are to places with very good football people in place.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear Manning decide tomorrow morning that the Broncos are his choice. I just hope the nerve allows him to throw hard enough.

[CoachChaz]

I dont know how important the arm strength factor is. If it's a slight loss, I have nothing but belief that a savvy vet like Manning will figure out what his limitations may be and adjust accordingly. Elway was similar when he had the surgery on his arm. It made him make adjustments and he did so fantastically. How about Brees shoulder? Now...if the strenth loss is significant, it's more concerning. But in all honesty, I dont see a guy like Manning losing 50% arm strength and forcing himself on the field. He's classy enough to know when he has to call it quits. So, if he no longer has Peyton Manning arm strength and only has Eli Manning arm strength...I'm okay with that.

The rust would honestly be my biggest concern at his age

[wayninja]

So basically just a lot of opinions.

Yep, funny how they are slanted depending on who is positing them.

[MOtorboat]

Again, from article:



http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8277b4ef/article/doctors-say-peyton-mannings-injury-risk-is-very-low

Sure would help to clear things up if Manning's surgeon would comment.

He would be violating the law if he did.

[jhildebrand]

Second, the time it took to occur does not necessarily indicate how long it would take to repair.

With nerves it absolutely does Top. If they regenerated quickly, or science knew how to speed the process, paralysis wouldn't be a permanent situation for many. In fact, the medical community is still quite baffled by the nervous system. Look no further than Monique van der Vorst.

My suspicion is Elway and Fox have it on good authority, maybe from one Todd Helton, that the throwing was ok. No teams were allowed to watch his workouts at Duke the past month.

[Npba900]

I HATE to be a Debbie Downer, I fully have supported Tebow last year and this offseason. While the opportunity to pick up Manning is too good to pass up. I'm all for getting him under center in Denver. WE become instant SB contenders with him calling the plays.

I've posted a couple of questions about his health in the 6+ Peyton Manning threads (not even with the Broncos yet and giving Tebow a run for his money LOL) Yet no one responds?

Why is the fan base so captivated by acquiring Manning even though he MIGHT not be 100% or ever be 100%? Is it more about driving Tebow out of town??? I think that plays a part in IT.

Like I posted if Manning is left with a Chad Pennington arm and that's the only lingering effect of his 3-4 NECK surgeries I'm all for bringing HIM IN. Has he worked out for the Broncos? Have the DOCS looked at him? Are WE just hoping HE get's healthy? What's going on there....



While teams are lining up for quarterback Peyton Manning, there is still the question of his health and arm strength.

According to Jason Cole of Yahoo Sports, three NFL sources that have seen medical reports on quarterback Peyton Manning say the improvement of his arm strength appears to be going at a promising pace, although a full recovery is still far off.


http://http://theredzone.org/BlogDescription/tabid/61/EntryId/24451/Report--Return-of-Manning-s-arm-strength-still-far-off/Default.aspx

Tebow's footwork, throwing mechanics, passing consistency, and reading defenses are not there yet either. Question is which QB will overcome their deficiencies and health concerns first?

[jhildebrand]

He would be violating the law if he did.

Not to mention it is an inury. There is no telling just how it will respond to physical activity. Nobody can gurantee anything. Also, it is probably better. That way opposing teams don't know either.

[wayninja]

Tebow's footwork, throwing mechanics, passing consistency, and reading defenses are not there yet either. Question is which QB will overcome their deficiencies and health concerns first?

That's one way of looking at it. Another is, how long does each have to overcome?

[topscribe]

With nerves it absolutely does Top. If they regenerated quickly, or science knew how to speed the process, paralysis wouldn't be a permanent situation for many. In fact, the medical community is still quite baffled by the nervous system. Look no further than Monique van der Vorst.

My suspicion is Elway and Fox have it on good authority, maybe from one Todd Helton, that the throwing was ok. No teams were allowed to watch his workouts at Duke the past month.
It depends on the type of injury and the nature of the neuronal damage, as well as what particular anatomy (whom) is affected. Every situation is different.

Nonetheless, as you implied, EFX must know something we don't, or I don't envision their waving that much money in Peyton's face, and certainly not with Mr. Bowlen's blessings . . .

[Shazam!]

This whole fiasco makes me sick.

[Northman]

This whole fiasco makes me sick.


Dont know why, we've been dealing with it for years. The only difference here is we would actually be upgrading the position.

[topscribe]

This whole fiasco makes me sick.

Well, my friend, while to you it's a fiasco, to others of us it is quite exciting . . .

[CoachChaz]

This whole fiasco makes me sick.

Another season with Tebow does the same for many others

[Npba900]

That's one way of looking at it. Another is, how long does each have to overcome?

Thats a good question. Tebow who's already 25-26 years of age and still learning how to read defenses, mastering footwork fundamentals he should have mastered in H.S. and college, improve/overcome his inconsistent throwing mechanics and accuracies; is running out of time and may have already peaked or will not make the necessary improvements to become an NFL caliber QB. Keep in mind Peyton doesn't have those issues. If Peyton proves to EFX that he is 85% of his former self! Its a no brainier.....Peyton over Tebow.

[catfish]

Thats a good question. Tebow who's already 25-26 years of age and still learning how to read defenses, mastering footwork fundamentals he should have mastered in H.S. and college, improve/overcome his inconsistent throwing mechanics and accuracies; is running out of time and may have already peaked or will not make the necessary improvements to become an NFL caliber QB. Keep in mind Peyton doesn't have those issues. If Peyton proves to EFX that he is 85% of his former self! Its a no brainier.....Peyton over Tebow.


ok, peyton at 85% over Tebow, what about Peyton at 85% vs Campbell or Flynn or Weeden or Osweiler or any other FA or Draftee that you could get for 5-8 mil as opposed to 20 mil. That is the real question. You can ship Tebow out with any of those options, and so what if his fans get mad after al they arent real Broncos fans anyway right.

[CoachChaz]

Thats a good question. Tebow who's already 25-26 years of age and still learning how to read defenses, mastering footwork fundamentals he should have mastered in H.S. and college, improve/overcome his inconsistent throwing mechanics and accuracies; is running out of time and may have already peaked or will not make the necessary improvements to become an NFL caliber QB. Keep in mind Peyton doesn't have those issues. If Peyton proves to EFX that he is 85% of his former self! Its a no brainier.....Peyton over Tebow.


ok, peyton at 85% over Tebow, what about Peyton at 85% vs Campbell or Flynn or Weeden or Osweiler or any other FA or Draftee that you could get for 5-8 mil as opposed to 20 mil. That is the real question. You can ship Tebow out with any of those options, and so what if his fans get mad after al they arent real Broncos fans anyway right.

I dont recall seeing 20 mil mentioned anywhere and I sure dont believe that will be the number. If it is...no dice

[arapaho2]

heres my issue.....we have committed to building from the draft, youth growing together on our team is the way to go. and at that we are probably a year or two from being a real contender, defense needs upgrades at lbr, safty, cb, DT.... we went with tebow, a qb who is limited in his training as a drop back passer...but he has freakish athletic ability and he can master the mechanics with proper tutiledge....and went from 1-4 to the post season and playing a divisional game with him....people can say it was the run game, it was the defense but in either case the defense was no where nearly as good as some believe and the running game was solid when we was 1-4...the differance was tebow.....we believed we could grow as a team with him growing as a qb and we may be on to something good

now suddenly a aged vetern qb is released, but one who has nerve damage and needed major surgeries to HOPEFULLY correct the problem...we dont know if thats been done and if he will ever be able to play at his previous level....but people now are begging for us to drop the rebuild of a team built from youth and the draft and build around a 36 yr old qb who may or may not ever be close to what he was....for a hopeful 2-3 yr run....then what?

there no proof that we will be a superbowl contender just because manning comes here...in truth is it will probably take 2 years to get going around him and his offense...and then we have 1 more year with a 39 yr old qb and its back to the drawing board...with the promise to build from the draft around our next qb


why dont we stay the course..i feel more comfertable with tebow growing with the team and improving every year and being here for the long haul than i do renting a expensive hof qb that may or may not ever be the same.....i remember the broncos fans going ape shit when dorsett came to town...the savior of the team instant contender

[wayninja]

Thats a good question. Tebow who's already 25-26 years of age and still learning how to read defenses, mastering footwork fundamentals he should have mastered in H.S. and college, improve/overcome his inconsistent throwing mechanics and accuracies; is running out of time and may have already peaked or will not make the necessary improvements to become an NFL caliber QB. Keep in mind Peyton doesn't have those issues. If Peyton proves to EFX that he is 85% of his former self! Its a no brainier.....Peyton over Tebow.

Again, that's one way to look at it, another is, Peyton, who is already 36 and coming off of a year sitting and 3 neck surgeries with question marks about his strength, and therefore, his timing, may need several years to come back up to speed. How many years will Manning play?

I don't think it has to be one over the other like you make it out to be.

[Npba900]

heres my issue.....we have committed to building from the draft, youth growing together on our team is the way to go. and at that we are probably a year or two from being a real contender, defense needs upgrades at lbr, safty, cb, DT.... we went with tebow, a qb who is limited in his training as a drop back passer...but he has freakish athletic ability and he can master the mechanics with proper tutiledge....and went from 1-4 to the post season and playing a divisional game with him....people can say it was the run game, it was the defense but in either case the defense was no where nearly as good as some believe and the running game was solid when we was 1-4...the differance was tebow.....we believed we could grow as a team with him growing as a qb and we may be on to something good

now suddenly a aged vetern qb is released, but one who has nerve damage and needed major surgeries to HOPEFULLY correct the problem...we dont know if thats been done and if he will ever be able to play at his previous level....but people now are begging for us to drop the rebuild of a team built from youth and the draft and build around a 36 yr old qb who may or may not ever be close to what he was....for a hopeful 2-3 yr run....then what?

there no proof that we will be a superbowl contender just because manning comes here...in truth is it will probably take 2 years to get going around him and his offense...and then we have 1 more year with a 39 yr old qb and its back to the drawing board...with the promise to build from the draft around our next qb


why dont we stay the course..i feel more comfertable with tebow growing with the team and improving every year and being here for the long haul than i do renting a expensive hof qb that may or may not ever be the same.....i remember the broncos fans going ape shit when dorsett came to town...the savior of the team instant contender

EFX and the FO would still have the Broncos on course if they benched/traded Tebow for Manning. Signing Manning wouldn't cost the Broncos any draft picks.

[Npba900]

Again, that's one way to look at it, another is, Peyton, who is already 36 and coming off of a year sitting and 3 neck surgeries with question marks about his strength, and therefore, his timing, may need several years to come back up to speed. How many years will Manning play?

I don't think it has to be one over the other like you make it out to be.

Manning hasn't been away from the game for several years, so I don't see where it would take Manning several years to get his timing back. I think he will be just fine. Elway seems to believe that Manning can make a comeback and Peyton's upside is a lot better than Tebow's at the current time.

[arapaho2]

never said it would cost draft picks did i?....i said we would have to accomidate mannings preferances on offensive players...and build around his style...a immobile drop back passer....our line no matter hoow much we insist is solid... is horrible in pass protection....sources all insist whereever manning goes...his offense and his style of players will be a neccesity....then what...theres no guarantee we will get to a superbowl much less win one with manning, in the 2-3 year window...and at the end were then starting another rebuild around whatever qb we have in waiting...lets keep some stability and follow through with a plan for a while before we swich midstream

[wayninja]

Manning hasn't been away from the game for several years, so I don't see where it would take Manning several years to get his timing back. I think he will be just fine. Elway seems to believe that Manning can make a comeback and Peyton's upside is a lot better than Tebow's at the current time.

It wouldn't be the rust that causes his timing to be off, it would be his strength. But the rust wouldn't help.

You are speculating about the upside. No one has really seen PM play post surgery, so at best it's a gamble, and it's a short term one.

And if Manning does come back, great, but for how long? Again, this just continues the loop of the QB carousel that's been going on for almost a decade. I'm fine with a healthy Manning under center, but don't think Tebow deserves a trade for his performance. I also am really starting to become disillusioned with the supposed 'transparency' of our FO. I mean, I get that you have to make smart business moves and I get that things can be fluid, but as time mounts, stuff adds up more and more to EFX really actually wanting Tebow to fall on his face. It's hard to respect that.

[topscribe]

never said it would cost draft picks did i?....i said we would have to accomidate mannings preferances on offensive players...and build around his style...a immobile drop back passer....our line no matter hoow much we insist is horrible in pass protection....sources all insist whereever manning goes...his offense and his style of players will be a neccesity....then what...theres no guarantee we will get to a superbowl much less win one with manning, in the 2-3 year window...and at the end were then starting another rebuild around whatever qb we have in waiting...again

I keep seeing the word "guarantee" here and there. Can you -- can anybody -- provide a scenario in which a Super Bowl would be guaranteed? Any scenario? Would the Broncos be guaranteed a Super Bowl under Tebow? How about if Rodgers or Brady were to join the team? Would that provide the guarantee?

All the Broncos can do is to make the best decisions they can with their (superior to our) knowledge and go with it. And they would be the first to tell you there are no guarantees . . .

[wayninja]

I keep seeing the word "guarantee" here and there. Can you -- can anybody -- provide a scenario in which a Super Bowl would be guaranteed? Any scenario? Would the Broncos be guaranteed a Super Bowl under Tebow? How about if Rodgers or Brady were to join the team? Would that provide the guarantee?

All the Broncos can do is to make the best decisions they can with their (superior to our) knowledge and go with it. And they would be the first to tell you there are no guarantees . . .

I guarantee that Manning is not the long term solution at QB.

[turftoad]

I guarantee that Manning is not the long term solution at QB.

Of course not. They want him for 2-3 years and find a REAL QB to mentor.

[Northman]

why dont we stay the course..i feel more comfertable with tebow growing with the team and improving every year and being here for the long haul than i do renting a expensive hof qb that may or may not ever be the same....

You do but some dont and i feel that the organization may feel the same.

[Npba900]

never said it would cost draft picks did i?....i said we would have to accomidate mannings preferances on offensive players...and build around his style...a immobile drop back passer....our line no matter hoow much we insist is solid... is horrible in pass protection....sources all insist whereever manning goes...his offense and his style of players will be a neccesity....then what...theres no guarantee we will get to a superbowl much less win one with manning, in the 2-3 year window...and at the end were then starting another rebuild around whatever qb we have in waiting...lets keep some stability and follow through with a plan for a while before we swich midstream

I mentioned draft choices because the Broncos can continue the youth movement by drafting through the draft. I think it would be a smart move to accommodate the preferences of argueable the G.O.A.T when it comes to Manning.

Fox would much rather concentrate on the defensive side of the ball and McCoy could learn a lot from Manning when it comes to executing an offense and calling the right plays. As far as the lack of mobility is concerned, Manning's quick release and reads will help out a lot when it comes to avoiding sacks.

During Marino's career.....his quick release negated 100's of sacks. Of course there are no guarantees on long it will take for Manning to get Denver back to the Super Bowl, but same holds true when it comes to Tebow as well when it comes to how long it will take Tebow to lead Denver to the SB.

[catfish]

You do but some dont and i feel that the organization may feel the same.

If that is the case ship Tebow out and draft a guy for the future. I don't believe for a second that the FO is held hostage to the Tebow fanatics.

[CoachChaz]

We improved by 4 wins in a year. We won 8 games and the Super Bowl champs won 9 while beating the 2 favorites on their way. Anything can happen in the NFL today and I think the notion of having a 2-3 year rebuilding plan is less important anymore.

On the other hand, if the plan is to improve with a veteran pocket passer who can groom a successor...its a much more viable option than waiting to draft/sign all the great option players out there that can play Tebows game

[catfish]

I dont recall seeing 20 mil mentioned anywhere and I sure dont believe that will be the number. If it is...no dice

I want to say I read it on IAOFM, but they are doing a Peyton watch and the article link is gone...I will look for it and post it if I find. Shame on me, I usually don't spout numbers without a link

[Northman]

If that is the case ship Tebow out and draft a guy for the future. I don't believe for a second that the FO is held hostage to the Tebow fanatics.


I dont think so either, but at the same time im not sure what their final consensus is on Tim. For all we know they want Manning for 2-3 years and allow the "project" to keep learning. Thats a benefit not a detriment to the team. However, if JE and company are not sold on Tim or think he isnt worth the extra work that it would take to get Tim on that level than i say yea, trade ihm and draft a prospect that fits your mold.

[topscribe]

If that is the case ship Tebow out and draft a guy for the future. I don't believe for a second that the FO is held hostage to the Tebow fanatics.

At one point, some 80+ percent were loudly clamoring for Tebow. Don't you think that had some influence?

[catfish]

I dont think so either, but at the same time im not sure what their final consensus is on Tim. For all we know they want Manning for 2-3 years and allow the "project" to keep learning. Thats a benefit not a detriment to the team. However, if JE and company are not sold on Tim or think he isnt worth the extra work that it would take to get Tim on that level than i say yea, trade ihm and draft a prospect that fits your mold.

I agree wioth all that, but some here(not you) seem to think that this is only a ploy to ditch Tebow. If all they wanted to do was get rid of Tebow then show him the door. If the FO is letting fans influence the decisions Denver is ******. If they still have faith in Tebow, fine keep him, but I don't think the "circus" is going to matter 1 damn bit.

[catfish]

At one point, some 80+ percent were loudly clamoring for Tebow. Don't you think that had some influence?

It better not have, the FO better be fielding the team that they think gives them the best chance to win. As soon as the fans start influencing decisions you all are screwed

[wayninja]

At one point, some 80+ percent were loudly clamoring for Tebow. Don't you think that had some influence?

It didn't seem to have any influence after who started last season considering Tebow ended it the year before...

[wayninja]

Of course not. They want him for 2-3 years and find a REAL QB to mentor.

And you know Manning has 2-3 years left?

And if we do well with him, who will this REAL QB be, exactly? Not a draft pick most likely...

[Northman]

I agree wioth all that, but some here(not you) seem to think that this is only a ploy to ditch Tebow. If all they wanted to do was get rid of Tebow then show him the door. If the FO is letting fans influence the decisions Denver is ******. If they still have faith in Tebow, fine keep him, but I don't think the "circus" is going to matter 1 damn bit.

While i dont think it was the only factor i do believe the fan pressure had a pretty good part of it. And it may have even trickled down from Bowlen to Elway and Fox. The fans pay the salaries and when the product is not good or losing they become disgruntled. Doesnt mean they should make the decisions but.... at the time Tim had played like 3 games and a good portion of the fanbase just didnt care for Orton at all. Whether it was leftover from the Jay trade or just how he played and was but i have no doubt the fan pressure played a factor. The only thing i dont think the FO counted on was that Tim would be able to find a way to win some ballgames along the way. But that also is attributed to the coaching staff for catering their scheme to fit Tim. Had they gone with the scheme that Fox wanted to run we probably would of tanked so when i see people saying that Elway and company wanted Tim to lose i say they are full of shit. If Denver had gone with their original playbook Timmy would of failed miserably.

[catfish]

While i dont think it was the only factor i do believe the fan pressure had a pretty good part of it. And it may have even trickled down from Bowlen to Elway and Fox. The fans pay the salaries and when the product is not good or losing they become disgruntled. Doesnt mean they should make the decisions but.... at the time Tim had played like 3 games and a good portion of the fanbase just didnt care for Orton at all. Whether it was leftover from the Jay trade or just how he played and was but i have no doubt the fan pressure played a factor. The only thing i dont think the FO counted on was that Tim would be able to find a way to win some ballgames along the way. But that also is attributed to the coaching staff for catering their scheme to fit Tim. Had they gone with the scheme that Fox wanted to run we probably would of tanked so when i see people saying that Elway and company wanted Tim to lose i say they are full of shit. If Denver had gone with their original playbook Timmy would of failed miserably.

I was under the impression that Denver had sold out seats well before Tebow, and most likely will well after Tebow. More than likely they saw the only QB they had on the team under contract after this year was Tebow, and seeing as how it looked like another 4-12 season they didn't have anything to lose it made the most sense to see what they had. Fan pressure most likely didn't play a role

[Northman]

I was under the impression that Denver had sold out seats well before Tebow, and most likely will well after Tebow. More than likely they saw the only QB they had on the team under contract after this year was Tebow, and seeing as how it looked like another 4-12 season they didn't have anything to lose it made the most sense to see what they had. Fan pressure most likely didn't play a role


Oh, Denver did sell out seats before Tebow. But one 4-12 season isnt going to make fans bolt out of the stadium. New coach, Elway joined the ranks, McD was fired, etc. Those all played into a new promise for a new season. Problem is, a 1-4 start started to make the natives restless. Had Denver stuck with Orton the entire year the record would of been horrible again and my guess is you would of seen the fans start not showing up. Fans can live with a season of bad, but when you start to show a trend than thats when shit gets ugly. I think the FO thought to themselves "well, lets put him in and shut them up. We will get a chance to see what he's got in the process". Your right, they didnt have anything to lose at that point but at 1-4 your not really out of the playoff hunt either as proven by last year. So technically they did not have to bench Orton but they did i do think fan pressure played a part.

[turftoad]

And you know Manning has 2-3 years left?

And if we do well with him, who will this REAL QB be, exactly? Not a draft pick most likely...

Not Tebow either. Which reminds me. If Tebows leaves, are you going to follow him there?

[hotcarl]

Sounds like bobby flay made some bacon wrapped scallops

[Northman]

Not Tebow either. Which reminds me. If Tebows leaves, are you going to follow him there?


He will, he will use his stealth to escape quietly. lol

[turftoad]

He will, he will use his stealth to escape quietly. lol

Along with the rest of the Tebois.

[topscribe]

Along with the rest of the Tebois.

I just got gang raped over on another board for my use of the term "Tebow's lemmings." :lol:

[wayninja]

Not Tebow either. Which reminds me. If Tebows leaves, are you going to follow him there?

Why would I do that? I lived in Colorado all of my life and have been a Bronco fan the same span. I guess your blinders aren't just limited to just Tebow himself but everyone who actually likes the guy.

Funny that someone supporting a Bronco is getting called out out as a non-bronco fan...

[Broncos Mtnman]

I dont know what happened at one of his workouts (at Duke i believe) but it doesnt seem like Manning is opposed to showing what he can do. And who knows what these teams are requiring of Manning before they want to sign him.

It was at Duke. He worked out with Stokley, Collie and Clark. It was closed to the public, but this video was captured on a cell phone.

Looks like his arm is doing pretty well. Clark said in an interview with USA Today that he looks just like he did when they played together. http://www.usatoday.com/video/brandon-stokley-gives-his-take-on-mannings-future/1497051991001

GOVAiFAmLc4

[catfish]

It was at Duke. He worked out with Stokley, Collie and Clark. It was closed to the public, but this video was captured on a cell phone.

Looks like his arm is doing pretty well.


GOVAiFAmLc4

The concern is can he throw deep repeatedly, can he throw with strenght and accuracy when he doesn't have his feet set, questions that arent going to be answered by a :27 clip from a camera phone. Again he might be 100% by the time the season starts, but that is the risk that teams are taking. Luckily it sounds like he is making progress

[wayninja]

It was at Duke. He worked out with Stokley, Collie and Clark. It was closed to the public, but this video was captured on a cell phone.

Looks like his arm is doing pretty well.

GOVAiFAmLc4

"(The video) was nice to see," one NFC executive told Yahoo! Sports, "but you have to be kidding me if you think I'm taking that as my evidence that he's healthy and ready to go or even is going to get healthy. Please."

[Northman]

The concern is can he throw deep repeatedly, can he throw with strenght and accuracy when he doesn't have his feet set, questions that arent going to be answered by a :27 clip from a camera phone. Again he might be 100% by the time the season starts, but that is the risk that teams are taking. Luckily it sounds like he is making progress

He may not even have to throw 40 times being in Denver. Fox uses the run game far more than Indy does.

[catfish]

He may not even have to throw 40 times being in Denver. Fox uses the run game far more than Indy does.

40 times total all season? ;)

edit: in all seriousness the video doesn't show whether he was accurate or how quickly he fatigued or if he can throw using just his arm without stepping in to it. I would feel much better had he worked out for Denver, but according to reports he isn't 100% yet so no real suprise he didn't

[Northman]

40 times total all season? ;)


Lol...uh no.

[topscribe]

JUST SNAP THE DAMN BALL!

This doesn't have a whole lot to do with the topic, but after viewing the vid Mtnman posted, I got to looking around a bit. This is pretty cool . . .

hVx4EjaqY78

[catfish]

JUST SNAP THE DAMN BALL!

This doesn't have a whole lot to do with the topic, but after viewing the vid Mtnman posted, I got to looking around a bit. This is pretty cool . . .

hVx4EjaqY78



Well shit, now I'm worried about the rest of the offense getting it

[Northman]

edit: in all seriousness the video doesn't show whether he was accurate or how quickly he fatigued or if he can throw using just his arm without stepping in to it. I would feel much better had he worked out for Denver, but according to reports he isn't 100% yet so no real suprise he didn't

Exactly. It was basically his first go at it but with more time i think he will be fine. I saw nothing there that makes me worry all that much. Actually gives me even more hope.

[catfish]

Exactly. It was basically his first go at it but with more time i think he will be fine. I saw nothing there that makes me worry all that much. Actually gives me even more hope.

I hope so...nerve injuries are tricky. With muscle or bone enough rehab will get the job done, with nerves it may get back to 100% it may plateau at 50% it may go to 90% then get inflamed and drop back to 50%. I am hopeful, but still real nervous

[wayninja]

Manning is a risk no matter how people want to spin it. I'm not so much worried about whether or not he can throw, clearly he can, I'm more worried that he can be consistent/pinpoint with his timing like he used to. There just isn't enough evidence for me to feel comfortable.

I still feel you have to take the risk, as the reward is too great to ignore. However, making Tebow an auto-trade with the pickup seems dumb and dick-ish to me.

[topscribe]

I hope so...nerve injuries are tricky. With muscle or bone enough rehab will get the job done, with nerves it may get back to 100% it may plateau at 50% it may go to 90% then get inflamed and drop back to 50%. I am hopeful, but still real nervous

Are you kidding? My wife just put the paramedics on speed dial . . .

[catfish]

Are you kidding? My wife just put the paramedics on speed dial . . .

I don't understand??

[topscribe]

I don't understand??

Um . . . nervous, paramedics . . . get it?

*somehow, the humor gets lost in the explanation*

[wayninja]

I hope so...nerve injuries are tricky. With muscle or bone enough rehab will get the job done, with nerves it may get back to 100% it may plateau at 50% it may go to 90% then get inflamed and drop back to 50%. I am hopeful, but still real nervous

Still real nervous... Good punning.

[catfish]

Um . . . nervous, paramedics . . . get it?

*somehow, the humor gets lost in the explanation*

lol, you lost me top...I'm sure I will get the next one;)

[catfish]

Still real nervous... Good punning.

unintentional I assure you :)

[wayninja]

Um . . . nervous, paramedics . . . get it?

*somehow, the humor gets lost in the explanation*

I get it. When you turn 137, anytime something makes you nervous, you have a stroke and your wife needs to call the paramedics. Funny.

[BORDERLINE]

"(The video) was nice to see," one NFC executive told Yahoo! Sports, "but you have to be kidding me if you think I'm taking that as my evidence that he's healthy and ready to go or even is going to get healthy. Please."

Nope it's all the evidence some peeps need. A semi-serviceble QB with a pulse will do. I'm sure HE can throw better than Tebow. Because we all know Tebow's footwork is awful. His throwing motion is too long. He can't actually keep winning (all the wins where flukes). And will never WIN a super bowl playing QB the way HE does.

The anti-Tebow crowd is just as extreme in their views as the Tebow nut-huggers. PM is the anti-Tebow crowds best option to get him out of Denver. And a very very good option I may add. But he is recovering from 3 Neck surgeries and do not know IF he will be back to the same form as before. Some fans want assurance some could care less. It's EFX decision and the fan base will have to RIDE with IT. And trust that they know what they are doing.

I got to get this off my chest. This kind of feels at least to me when we had Hillis tearing it up the last year Shanny was here. Then first thing McDouche does is draft Moreno. We all saw what He did and how he played with that passion. I see that in Tebow. And well you know how the story goes

[topscribe]

Nope it's all the evidence some peeps need. A semi-serviceble QB with a pulse will do. I'm sure HE can throw better than Tebow. Because we all know Tebow's footwork is awful. His throwing motion is too long. He can't actually keep winning (all the wins where flukes). And will never WIN a super bowl playing QB the way HE does.

The anti-Tebow crowd is just as extreme in their views as the Tebow nut-huggers. PM is the anti-Tebow crowds best option to get him out of Denver. And a very very good option I may add. But he is recovering from 3 Neck surgeries and do not know IF he will be back to the same form as before. Some fans want assurance some could care less. It's EFX decision and the fan base will have to RIDE with IT. And trust that they know what they are doing.

I got to get this off my chest. This kind of feels at least to me when we had Hillis tearing it up the last year Shanny was here. Then first thing McDouche does is draft Moreno. We all saw what He did and how he played with that passion. I see that in Tebow. And well you know how the story goes
I think I follow you, Border. However, Elway can hardly be equated with McDaniels . . .

[BORDERLINE]

I think I follow you, Border. However, Elway can hardly be equated with McDaniels . . .

No one compares to that d*** face McDouche.

[topscribe]

No one compares to that d*** face McDouche.

Yeah, that's not being very nice to John, is it? Therefore, I know that wasn't your intent . . .

[arapaho2]

I keep seeing the word "guarantee" here and there. Can you -- can anybody -- provide a scenario in which a Super Bowl would be guaranteed? Any scenario? Would the Broncos be guaranteed a Super Bowl under Tebow? How about if Rodgers or Brady were to join the team? Would that provide the guarantee?

All the Broncos can do is to make the best decisions they can with their (superior to our) knowledge and go with it. And they would be the first to tell you there are no guarantees . . .



im not gauranteeing nothing am i?......only saying the concensus is that manning gets us over the top...to the big game right...that is why we would take a chance...no?....i know the love of orton stills runs deeply in your heart and your probably happy to see tim get the boot...but we was makeing a change going with youth starting from scratch and building trought he draft........is manning worth the mega bucks and remake of our offense if we dont win one top...is it worth just getting as far as tebow took us?....and if we make the swap, drop tim, move to mannings offesne, get the players he wants...and in three years he retires without delivering a title...and we start over...is that worth it??

the only possible reason we get manning is because he gets us a title...that is the thinking right?..i doubt we just are thinking we get manning and get three winning seasons and at least a playoff win ...it was worth it, and starting over is cool

[Broncos Mtnman]

Here's an excerpt from ESPN just released. Manning's workout at Duke was 5 days, he will throw for the team that takes him once he makes a decision, and appears willing to financially protect whoever signs him.

Seems concern over his arm strength is without merit.

_________________________________________________

Manning has stated he has made considerable progress throwing while his nerves have regenerated and his right arm has strengthened to the point where sources say his velocity has increased, he is able to throw the NFL's traditional passing routes and his distances have routinely reached 50 yards.

He did say at his Colts farewell press conference that he still has progress to make with his throwing.

Two weeks ago Manning threw while wearing shoulder pads and a helmet over a five-day period at Duke University. Coaches and players who were present said Manning was impressive in his performance.

Manning has extensive quality video to show teams and is not believed to be opposed to working out for teams he identifies as finalists. However, he has acknowledged a willingness to financially protect any team that signs him in the event of a medical setback related to his previous neck injury and surgeries as he did last summer when he rejected a fully guaranteed five-year $100-million offer from Colts owner Jim Irsay.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7674669/peyton-manning-meets-arizona-cardinals-sources-say-no-contract-talk

[topscribe]

im not gauranteeing nothing am i?......only saying the concensus is that manning gets us over the top...to the big game right...that is why we would take a chance...no?....i know the love of orton stills runs deeply in your heart and your probably happy to see tim get the boot...but we was makeing a change going with youth starting from scratch and building trought he draft........is manning worth the mega bucks and remake of our offense if we dont win one top...is it worth just getting as far as tebow took us?....and if we make the swap, drop tim, move to mannings offesne, get the players he wants...and in three years he retires without delivering a title...and we start over...is that worth it??

the only possible reason we get manning is because he gets us a title...that is the thinking right?..i doubt we just are thinking we get manning and get three winning seasons and at least a playoff win ...it was worth it, and starting over is cool

Why do you think Orton has anything to do with this? Have you been dating BroncoStud?

Had Tebow proven to be a very good QB, I would have totally had his back. My history proves this: During the Plummer era, I was a huge Plummer fan. You can ask Mtnman about that -- he's on the board tonight. However, I was a Cutler fan before the Broncos ever drafted him, which I wanted the Broncos to do. And when Cutler took over, I was a huge Cutler fan. Why? Because he was a good QB for the Broncos. You can ask Mtnman about that, too.

That is what I'm concerned about: What can he do for the Broncos? I am not anywhere near convinced Tebow can do it because of Tebow, nothing else . . .

[Northman]

Here's an excerpt from ESPN just released. Manning's workout at Duke was 5 days, he will throw for the team that takes him once he makes a decision, and appears willing to financially protect whoever signs him.

Seems concern over his arm strength is without merit.

_________________________________________________

Manning has stated he has made considerable progress throwing while his nerves have regenerated and his right arm has strengthened to the point where sources say his velocity has increased, he is able to throw the NFL's traditional passing routes and his distances have routinely reached 50 yards.

He did say at his Colts farewell press conference that he still has progress to make with his throwing.

Two weeks ago Manning threw while wearing shoulder pads and a helmet over a five-day period at Duke University. Coaches and players who were present said Manning was impressive in his performance.

Manning has extensive quality video to show teams and is not believed to be opposed to working out for teams he identifies as finalists. However, he has acknowledged a willingness to financially protect any team that signs him in the event of a medical setback related to his previous neck injury and surgeries as he did last summer when he rejected a fully guaranteed five-year $100-million offer from Colts owner Jim Irsay.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7674669/peyton-manning-meets-arizona-cardinals-sources-say-no-contract-talk



Manning has extensive quality video to show teams and is not believed to be opposed to working out for teams he identifies as finalists. However, he has acknowledged a willingness to financially protect any team that signs him in the event of a medical setback related to his previous neck injury and surgeries as he did last summer when he rejected a fully guaranteed five-year $100-million offer from Colts owner Jim Irsay.


BOOM. End of story.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

BOOM. End of story.

Well, not exactly...

It's great that he'll try to protect a team financially if he's not ready (with an incentive laden/escape clause deal or so it would appear), but where does that leave the QB situation? What, is Manning going to crap us a new QB if he can't play? With all the speculation that Tebow is as good as gone if Manning signs with us, that means we'll most likely be down to a rookie that we draft this year and Adam Weber if Manning can't go. So, right back where we started when Elway retired, in QB hell...

[Canmore]

Well, not exactly...

It's great that he'll try to protect a team financially if he's not ready (with an incentive laden/escape clause deal or so it would appear), but where does that leave the QB situation? What, is Manning going to crap us a new QB if he can't play? With all the speculation that Tebow is as good as gone if Manning signs with us, that means we'll most likely be down to a rookie that we draft this year and Adam Weber if Manning can't go. So, right back where we started when Elway retired, in QB hell...

You roll the dice and take your chances. Whomever gets Peyton is doing exactly this. To me it is worth the shot, but you hang on to Tebow. He is under contract. That is the fall back.

[Divinelegion]

Add Content

[The Peytonator]

I like this forum. There seems to be quite a bit of Peyton love. I thought I'd come here and it would be a bunch of people whining about the idea of Peyton as a Bronco, because you have your franchise QB, Tim Tebow....the Tebow hype must have been more of media thing than an actual Bronco fan thing.

[Canmore]

I like this forum. There seems to be quite a bit of Peyton love. I thought I'd come here and it would be a bunch of people whining about the idea of Peyton as a Bronco, because you have your franchise QB, Tim Tebow....the Tebow hype must have been more of media thing than an actual Bronco fan thing.

I like Tebow but he is a work in progress. You have a chance to bring in one of the best quarterbacks of all time, you do it.

There are plenty of Tebow fanatics, they all joined in April two years ago.

[BORDERLINE]

but where does that leave the QB situation? What, is Manning going to crap us a new QB if he can't play?
THIS^^^^^^



That article was encouraging and it definitely gives you answers to some of our questions. But North it's far from the END of the Story. Until we see HIM in the Uni throwing the ball 50+ yards to D.T we can put it to rest.

EFX seems to want to have their own style of QB. Every chance they get they seem to want to move away from Tebow. I don't agree with it but HE is not THEIR QB. So draft day coming up is gonna be very very interesting to say the least.

[wayninja]

Manning wouldn't be touring if he flat couldn't play. That doesn't make the concerns about his strength and health without merit. I don't care what is on tape or what is in writing, I'll be concerned until I see some games.

[NightTerror218]

Manning will probably be fine.

Tebow will likely not improve.

OR

Manning will probably never be the manning of old.

Tebow will continue to get better.

Or some combination of the above.

ALSO

Young QB makes some plays and not others. Tebow is unique in this capacity.

Dont forget Tebow is a season vet and should be viewed as such. He has worlds of experience and there is so much tape on him to know he hit his ceiling. Also we know that he has plenty of off season work outs and plenty of TCs to improve him mechanics and footworks and it is just a mental block he cant surpass.

[topscribe]

Well, not exactly...

It's great that he'll try to protect a team financially if he's not ready (with an incentive laden/escape clause deal or so it would appear), but where does that leave the QB situation? What, is Manning going to crap us a new QB if he can't play? With all the speculation that Tebow is as good as gone if Manning signs with us, that means we'll most likely be down to a rookie that we draft this year and Adam Weber if Manning can't go. So, right back where we started when Elway retired, in QB hell...
First of all, I don't think Tebow's going anywhere, and neither do a lot of pundits who are talking about it.

Second, the reason Manning is laying down that guarantee is because of what he knows about himself. He is saying I'm fine, and here is my assurance for you.

Third, no matter who is behind Manning, there will be a precipitous dropoff behind him. If he goes down, it won't matter who picks up the gauntlet: The guy just won't be as good.

In short, your reasoning smacks of running scared . . .

[Npba900]

Why do you think Orton has anything to do with this? Have you been dating BroncoStud?

Had Tebow proven to be a very good QB, I would have totally had his back. My history proves this: During the Plummer era, I was a huge Plummer fan. You can ask Mtnman about that -- he's on the board tonight. However, I was a Cutler fan before the Broncos ever drafted him, which I wanted the Broncos to do. And when Cutler took over, I was a huge Cutler fan. Why? Because he was a good QB for the Broncos. You can ask Mtnman about that, too.

That is what I'm concerned about: What can he do for the Broncos? I am not anywhere near convinced Tebow can do it because of Tebow, nothing else . . .

Spot on Top. I know I've got to move and I have. However, Shanny had assembled some good to great talent for the Broncos between 2006-2008. I will always believe Shanny should have been allowed to coach out his contract until 2010.

The achilles heel for Shanny was no doubt not being able to assemble a Defense that was competitive. But Shanahan sure rebuilt the offense for a title run. Oh well I can only imagine what could have been.

[topscribe]

Spot on Top. I know I've got to move and I have. However, Shanny had assembled some good to great talent for the Broncos between 2006-2008. I will always believe Shanny should have been allowed to coach out his contract until 2010.

The achilles heel for Shanny was no doubt not being able to assemble a Defense that was competitive. But Shanahan sure rebuilt the offense for a title run. Oh well I can only imagine what could have been.
Not sure firing Shanny was the right thing to do at the time. Word is, he was preparing to fix the defense the very next year since he had the #2 offense and didn't have to tinker with it. One thing for sure: He was a much better GM/HC than McDaniels. But now I'm playing Captain Obvious . . .