Is Cutler a winner?

[fcspikeit]

I posted this in another thread already, but I think it's deserving of its own thread, that way more people will get the chance to see it.

Check this site out... http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=1808


STEP 1: compute each quarterback’s winning percentage in each of six categories: (1) defense allows 0–10 points, (2) defense allows 11–15 points, (3) defense allows 16–20 points, (4) defense allows 21–25 points, (5) defense allows 26–33 points, and (6) defense allows 34+ points.

STEP 2: in each category, compute how many games that quarterback won compared to how many an average QB would have been expected to win.

STEP 3: sum up the QB’s wins above or below average, across all six categories.

Let’s run through Joe Namath as an example:

defense allows 0–10 points: Joe was the beneficiary of this kind of defensive performance 17 times. An average QB would be expected to win 15.9 of 17 games. Joe went 17-0. So he’s +1.1 wins.

defense allows 11–15 points: 18 games. Joe is 16-2. An average QB would win 13.7. So Joe is +2.3 here.

defense allows 16–20 points: 23 games. Joe is 13-10. An average QB would win 12.1. So Joe is +0.9.

defense allows 21–25 points: 25 games. Joe is 10-15. An average QB would win 9.7. So Joe is +0.3.

defense allows 26–33 points: 24 games. Joe is 6-18. An average QB would win 4.1. So Joe is +1.9.

defense allows 34+ points: 25 games. Joe is 2-23. An average QB would win 0.9. So Joe is +1.1.

Add it all up (and ignore the rounding error) and Namath comes out at +7.6. Do that for every quarterback who has started 50 or more games since 1950 and you get the following list. Lots of commentary and fine print below:

G W ExpW Diff
=========================================
Peyton Manning 191 124 92.8 +31.2
John Elway 252 162 134.5 +27.5
Tom Brady 128 101 73.9 +27.1
Brett Favre 291 181 154.7 +26.3
Dan Marino 258 155 129.8 +25.2
Joe Montana 187 133 109.1 +23.9
Ken Stabler 158 103 80.7 +22.3
Johnny Unitas 194 124 106.7 +17.3
Daryle Lamonica 97 70 53.1 +16.9
Jim Kelly 177 110 93.2 +16.8
Steve Young 157 102 85.8 +16.2
Roger Staubach 131 96 79.9 +16.1
Norm Van Brocklin 105 63 47.7 +15.3
Terry Bradshaw 177 121 106.3 +14.7
Dan Fouts 178 89 76.4 +12.6
Randall Cunningham 144 85 72.8 +12.2
Danny White 102 67 55.5 +11.5
Bobby Layne 139 83 71.6 +11.4
Kurt Warner 112 65 53.6 +11.4
Y.A. Tittle 139 78 66.8 +11.2
Frank Ryan 90 58 47.8 +10.2
Bill Nelsen 79 42 32.1 +9.9
Fran Tarkenton 250 130 120.1 +9.9
Otto Graham 78 61 51.3 +9.7
Stan Humphries 87 53 43.7 +9.3
Joe Theismann 132 83 74.3 +8.7
Jeff Hostetler 88 55 46.6 +8.4
Steve McNair 163 96 87.7 +8.3
Ben Roethlisberger 81 59 51.0 +8.0
Rich Gannon 139 80 72.3 +7.7
Steve Grogan 138 75 67.4 +7.6
Joe Namath 132 64 56.4 +7.6
Dave Krieg 184 101 93.6 +7.4
Drew Brees 109 56 48.7 +7.3
Matt Hasselbeck 112 62 54.8 +7.2
Bert Jones 99 47 40.1 +6.9
Jim Hart 182 87 80.1 +6.9
Trent Green 115 56 49.1 +6.9
Philip Rivers 54 36 29.2 +6.8
Jake Delhomme 89 55 48.2 +6.8
Marc Bulger 90 41 34.2 +6.8
Jay Schroeder 104 64 57.6 +6.4
Mark Rypien 85 52 45.6 +6.4
Eli Manning 78 46 39.8 +6.2
Ed Brown 98 55 49.1 +5.9
Charley Johnson 124 59 53.2 +5.8
Billy Kilmer 121 63 57.3 +5.7
John Brodie 164 76 70.6 +5.4
Don Meredith 89 49 43.7 +5.3
Warren Moon 213 105 100.2 +4.8
Brian Sipe 113 57 52.2 +4.8
Jack Kemp 111 67 62.4 +4.6
Jim Plunkett 154 80 75.4 +4.6
George Blanda 108 55 50.5 +4.5
Dan Pastorini 122 59 54.6 +4.4
Tony Eason 56 31 26.9 +4.1
Daunte Culpepper 99 43 38.9 +4.1
Bob Griese 162 98 94.1 +3.9
Sonny Jurgensen 149 69 65.1 +3.9
Troy Aikman 180 105 101.3 +3.7
Phil Simms 169 101 97.3 +3.7
Len Dawson 167 99 95.6 +3.4
Earl Morrall 108 67 63.6 +3.4
Neil Lomax 102 47 43.7 +3.3
Bart Starr 167 103 99.7 +3.3
David Woodley 58 37 33.8 +3.2
Boomer Esiason 178 83 79.8 +3.2
Jim Zorn 106 44 40.9 +3.1
Jim McMahon 103 70 66.9 +3.1
Michael Vick 71 40 36.9 +3.1
Jake Plummer 142 71 68.1 +2.9
Donovan McNabb 143 91 88.5 +2.5
Jeff Garcia 122 60 57.6 +2.4
Wade Wilson 74 38 35.6 +2.4
Charlie Conerly 92 58 55.7 +2.3
Marc Wilson 61 32 29.7 +2.3
Neil O'Donnell 107 58 55.7 +2.3
Brad Johnson 132 76 74.1 +1.9
Bobby Hebert 103 56 54.1 +1.9
Rodney Peete 89 46 44.2 +1.8
Brian Griese 83 45 43.3 +1.7
Mike Phipps 73 38 36.3 +1.7
Pat Haden 60 37 35.5 +1.5
Mike Tomczak 78 45 43.5 +1.5
Roman Gabriel 159 86 84.8 +1.2
Vince Ferragamo 59 30 28.8 +1.2
Babe Parilli 104 50 48.9 +1.1
Tom Flores 67 31 30.1 +0.9
Kordell Stewart 86 50 49.1 +0.9
Gus Frerotte 95 45 44.2 +0.8
Tobin Rote 119 51 50.2 +0.8
Elvis Grbac 73 41 40.2 +0.8
Carson Palmer 66 32 31.4 +0.6
Aaron Brooks 92 39 38.5 +0.5
Billy Wade 86 41 40.7 +0.3
Ken Anderson 178 93 92.7 +0.3
Craig Morton 154 86 85.8 +0.2
Doug Flutie 68 38 37.9 +0.1
John Hadl 169 82 82.0 +0.0
Jeff Blake 100 39 39.0 -0.0
Tommy Kramer 114 56 56.0 -0.0
Mark Brunell 160 83 83.1 -0.1
Erik Kramer 70 32 32.4 -0.4
Jay Fiedler 63 38 38.4 -0.4
Scott Mitchell 73 32 32.5 -0.5
Bernie Kosar 115 56 56.6 -0.6
Chad Pennington 83 45 45.8 -0.8
Don Majkowski 57 26 26.8 -0.8
Steve Bartkowski 131 60 60.9 -0.9
Bubby Brister 77 38 39.4 -1.4
Jon Kitna 116 46 47.5 -1.5
Richard Todd 112 50 51.5 -1.5
Milt Plum 103 56 57.9 -1.9
Chris Chandler 155 69 71.0 -2.0
Bob Avellini 51 23 25.8 -2.8
Gary Danielson 61 28 31.0 -3.0
Eric Hipple 58 28 31.1 -3.1
Ken O'Brien 112 50 53.2 -3.2
Jim Everett 158 66 69.3 -3.3
Bill Kenney 77 34 37.7 -3.7
Joe Kapp 52 26 29.8 -3.8
Jeff George 127 47 51.0 -4.0
Mark Malone 55 24 28.0 -4.0
Joe Ferguson 175 80 84.3 -4.3
Dave M. Brown 60 26 30.8 -4.8
Chris Miller 94 35 39.8 -4.8
Kerry Collins 171 82 86.9 -4.9
Mike Livingston 75 31 36.0 -5.0
Drew Bledsoe 199 101 106.1 -5.1
Greg Landry 99 44 49.1 -5.1
Eddie LeBaron 81 26 31.3 -5.3
Tim Couch 59 22 27.5 -5.5
Steve Beuerlein 104 48 53.6 -5.6
Cotton Davidson 54 20 25.7 -5.7
Lynn Dickey 113 46 51.7 -5.7
Rick Mirer 68 24 29.8 -5.8
Bob Berry 52 20 25.8 -5.8
Doug Williams 88 42 47.8 -5.8
Bill Munson 66 27 33.2 -6.2
Jim Harbaugh 145 68 74.7 -6.7
Bobby Douglass 53 16 22.8 -6.8
Trent Dilfer 119 63 69.8 -6.8
Mike Pagel 54 17 23.8 -6.8
Tony Banks 78 35 41.9 -6.9
Lamar McHan 73 24 31.0 -7.0
Steve DeBerg 144 54 61.2 -7.2
Ron Jaworski 151 77 86.4 -9.4
Norm Snead 158 52 61.6 -9.6
Joey Harrington 76 26 36.2 -10.2
David Carr 79 23 34.1 -11.1
Vinny Testaverde 219 92 103.4 -11.4
Archie Manning 139 35 52.4 -17.4



I was able to break his formula down with his Joe Namath example.

Here is how it works.

When the defense gives up 0 - 10 the QB should win 0.935 of the time.
When the defense gives up 11 - 15 the QB should win 0.761 of the time.
When the defense gives up 16 - 20 the QB should win 0.526 of the time.
When the defense gives up 21 - 25 the QB should win 0.388 of the time.
When the defense gives up 26 - 33 the QB should win 0.170 of the time.
When the defense gives up 34 + the QB should win 0.036 of the time.

So what you do is Times the total # of games in each group by the % in each group, then add them all together. Then subtract that from the total # of games actually won by the QB. If the QB is a + he is winning more then he should. If he is a -, he is losing more then he should..

How did Cutler add up? With this formula, Cutler should have won 12.1 of the 37 games he started. He actually won 17 so he won roughly 5 (4.841) more games then he should have been able to.

When you compare him to the others on the list, remember he has only played in 37 total games. Compared to Elway’s 252 and Manning’s 191. To put things in perspective, if we times Cutlers 37 by 6 = 222. Now times Cutler’s + 4.841 by 6, that = + 29.0..

Also, using this formula, with the average NFL QB the Broncos should have won just under 5 games last year (4.8). So with Cutler under center, the Broncos won 3 more games last year over what the average NFL QB would be expected to win.


The findings are clear. Cutler is winning more games then he should be able to win with this defense.

*Edit* I felt it important for everyone to understand what they mean when they say average NFL QB. This isn't just field run guys who were drafted to play QB. The average comes from what NFL QB's who have played in 50 or more games have been able to do. So in other words. That is a carrier starter or a guy who was good enough to start for at least 50 games.

[Northman]

Great article but ive been pretty much saying this same thing all along. But i like the research you did. Good stuff.

[Watchthemiddle]

Looks like you put a lot of time into that...good work.

However...17-20 speaks volume's.

Like I said in the other thread...if Cutler finishes say 78-110 for his career but makes the HOF, will it have an * next too it to explain why he was soooo good but had a losing record?

[claymore]

Looks like you put a lot of time into that...good work.

However...17-20 speaks volume's.

Like I said in the other thread...if Cutler finishes say 78-110 for his career but makes the HOF, will it have an * next too it to explain why he was soooo good but had a losing record?

He's a Bronco. We wont have to worry about him getting in the HOF anywho. :D

[EMB6903]

Great post... The haters dont see it like this though.... they dont understand that when you have one of the worst defenses of alltime you arent gonna win many games

Denver winning 8 games with that horrible defense is amazing in my opinion.

Ive said this for years judging a quarterback on wins is the dumbest thing you can do.

[honz]

He won the Indiana State Championship in high school....


Also, good research and post.

[atwater27]

WOW!! Amazing thread with amazing facts and amazing findings. We could all learn alot from this. Especially the Cutler haters. Come to think of it, McDaniels could learn alot from this thread.

[LoyalSoldier]

A slight problem with your math. Read the fine print.


2. You might be wondering about era/league effects. It’s easier to win if your defense allows 20 points in the 1961 AFL than it is to win if you defense allows 20 points in the 1974 NFL. Though I didn’t mention it above, I actually did attempt to account for this. What I did was to compute the “average quarterback’s expected wins” for a given category by looking at all games in that category in the same league within two years. For example, if I’m examining Joe Namath’s 1966 season, the expected winning percentage for category (1) games, e.g., is computed by looking at all category (1) AFL games from 1964 to 1968.

So by using Namath's data you are using the old 1964 data.

[NameUsedBefore]

Naysayers will replace the facts with emotions, but this should be another nail in the coffin anyway. Nice job.

[silkamilkamonico]

It's a good article.

I can see now why he thinks he's too good to go to offseason workouts with his teammates.

[Watchthemiddle]

Naysayers will replace the facts with emotions, but this should be another nail in the coffin anyway. Nice job.

Replacing facts with emotions...kind of like what Jay is doing right now. ....:rolleyes:

[Mike]

Looks like you put a lot of time into that...good work.

However...17-20 speaks volume's.

You're right. It says the DENVER BRONCOS have been pretty crappy over the last few years. :coffee:

[Greatspirits]

Time will tell! He needs to put in the time necessary to become an elite quarterback. He's got all the talent in the world. It's up to him if he wants to become the next Elway or the next Jeff George!!

[LoyalSoldier]

A poster at the Colts forum found a flaw in that this doesn't take into account the fact that if a QB played more games then he could have a larger sum than another QB who played at the same level for fewer games.

To correct for this I took a percent difference. I took the difference and divided it by the expected wins.

So for the articles data.


Peyton Manning 191 124 92.8 +31.2
John Elway 252 162 134.5 +27.5
Tom Brady 128 101 73.9 +27.1
Brett Favre 291 181 154.7 +26.3
Dan Marino 258 155 129.8 +25.2
Joe Montana 187 133 109.1 +23.9 Manning 31.2/92.8 = +34%
Elway 27.5/134.5 = +20%
Brady 27.1/73.9 = +37%
Farve 26.3/154.7 = +17%
Marino 25.2/129.8 = +19%
Montana 23.9/109.1 = +22%

Now if we take the Cutler data above ignoring the error I previously posted.

4.8/12.1 = 40%

If you see a problem with my math let me know, but otherwise don't complain to me if you don't like the numbers.

[MOtorboat]

There is nothing like a statistical circle jerk, is there?

Jay Cutler is the best quarterback in the league. :rolleyes:

[silkamilkamonico]

There is nothing like a statistical circle jerk, is there?

Jay Cutler is the best quarterback in the league. :rolleyes:

You need to get over it.

Cutler has a stronger arm than John Elway!

[atwater27]

There is nothing like a statistical circle jerk, is there?

Jay Cutler is the best quarterback in the league. :rolleyes:

That's funny, you resemble one of the words in your own statement. Guess which one.:salute:

[MOtorboat]

You need to get over it.

Cutler has a stronger arm than John Elway!

I'll be honest, I'm not sure what has brought this on...the thread that is...but no one is disputing that he's a talented young quarterback. Or, at least I'm not.

Reality actually tells us that he is 17-20 and has never played in a playoff game. :noidea: Let the excuses begin.

[tubby]

You can make all the excuses you want. When a playoff birth was on the line the last 3 weeks of the season Cutler sucked.

Week 15 @ CAR - QB rating 74.3
Week 16 BUF - QB rating 72.4
Week 17 @ SD - QB rating 74.9

TD to INT ratio during the last 3 weeks of the season......1:2

Cutler has yet to win a meaningfull game in his NFL career. Will he ever? TBD

:fish:

:violin:

[silkamilkamonico]

I'll be honest, I'm not sure what has brought this on...the thread that is...but no one is disputing that he's a talented young quarterback. Or, at least I'm not.

Reality actually tells us that he is 17-20 and has never played in a playoff game. :noidea: Let the excuses begin.

Dude, he can throw the ball further than John Elway. Do you not understand that?

[MOtorboat]

You can make all the excuses you want. When a playoff birth was on the line the last 3 weeks of the season Cutler sucked.

Week 15 @ CAR - QB rating 74.3
Week 16 BUF - QB rating 72.4
Week 17 @ SD - QB rating 74.9

TD to INT ratio during the last 3 weeks of the season......1:2

Cutler has yet to win a meaningfull game in his NFL career. Will he ever? TBD

:fish:

:violin:

The defense made him choke.

[fcspikeit]

A slight problem with your math. Read the fine print.



So by using Namath's data you are using the old 1964 data.

Good catch I didn't see that.. :salute:

So from the sounds of that, Cutler would have scored even higher then he did. "It’s easier to win if your defense allows 20 points in the 1961 AFL than it is to win if you defense allows 20 points in the 1974 NFL."

So it was easier to win back then when they scored under 20 points. So I was comparing Cutler against QB's in a time when it was easier to win when the D holds for less then 20.

I will look it over to see if I can see his calculated differences for the newer area but it will be tough, beings he only gave the break down for Namath..

[MOtorboat]

Good catch I didn't see that.. :salute:

So from the sounds of that, Cutler would have scored even higher then he did. "It’s easier to win if your defense allows 20 points in the 1961 AFL than it is to win if you defense allows 20 points in the 1974 NFL."

So it was easier to win back then when they scored under 20 points. So I was comparing Cutler against QB's in a time when it was easier to win when the D holds for less then 20.

I will look it over to see if I can see his calculated differences for the newer area but it will be tough, beings he only gave the break down for Namath..

Just out of curiosity, how many points did Cutler ACTUALLY score.

Not on some ridiculous adjusted scale...actual points...

[fcspikeit]

A poster at the Colts forum found a flaw in that this doesn't take into account the fact that if a QB played more games then he could have a larger sum than another QB who played at the same level for fewer games.

To correct for this I took a percent difference. I took the difference and divided it by the expected wins.

So for the articles data.

Manning 31.2/92.8 = +34%
Elway 27.5/134.5 = +20%
Brady 27.1/73.9 = +37%
Farve 26.3/154.7 = +17%
Marino 25.2/129.8 = +19%
Montana 23.9/109.1 = +22%

Now if we take the Cutler data above ignoring the error I previously posted.

4.8/12.1 = 40%

If you see a problem with my math let me know, but otherwise don't complain to me if you don't like the numbers.

Great job! :salute:

I was going to do that because I thought of the same thing. Beings they simply go off total + games won over what they should have won. The placement of the QB's wouldn't be right. You would have to break it into % as you did..

The reason I didn't do that is because some will simply say, we have no idea what will happen to Manning or Cutler in the next 60-200 games.. They would be right of course, we really don't know.. So I was mainly pointing out that up to this point Cutler has feared every bit as good in the win loss catagory as anyone who has ever played.

I bet if you only figured each guys first 37 games Cutler would be miles ahead! By going the way I did, we are comparing Cutler in his first year against guys in their prime..

[gnomeflinger]

I initially read this as "whiner" and I said YES. Then I realized my error. :laugh:

[fcspikeit]

Just out of curiosity, how many points did Cutler ACTUALLY score.

Not on some ridiculous adjusted scale...actual points...

How many points did any of the QB's on the list score?

That's why judging a QB off their win loss record is dumb to begin with.. LOL..

He is only one guy on the offense. Still, playing the same position as those other guys, he has done a hell of a lot better then what would be expected.

[MOtorboat]

How many points did any of the QB's on the list score?

That's why judging a QB off their win loss record is dumb to begin with.. LOL..

He is only one guy on the offense. Still, playing the same position as those other guys, he has done a hell of a lot better then what would be expected.

I'll bet they were higher than the Top 15...

[LoyalSoldier]

You can make all the excuses you want. When a playoff birth was on the line the last 3 weeks of the season Cutler sucked.

Week 15 @ CAR - QB rating 74.3
Week 16 BUF - QB rating 72.4
Week 17 @ SD - QB rating 74.9

TD to INT ratio during the last 3 weeks of the season......1:2

Cutler has yet to win a meaningfull game in his NFL career. Will he ever? TBD


The Buffalo game rating is lying to you. Cutler scored 2 rushing TDs in that game. Not to mention the Defense blew a lead going into the 4th quarter. They gave up a 65 yard pass when we needed them to hold.

I refuse to blame the Buffalo game on Cutler. Blame the Miami game and even the NE game if you would like since Cutler played like a dog in those games, but the Buffalo game was almost all the defense's problem.

Our offense would have scored somewhere around 28 points if the defense wasn't forcing us to go for it on 4th down multiple times.

[LoyalSoldier]

I'll bet they were higher than the Top 15...

How many of those QBs on that list had 13 or less turnovers from their defense? Funny how forcing turnovers tend to effect scoring. Something that the Jay bashers keep referencing.

[fcspikeit]

I'll be honest, I'm not sure what has brought this on...the thread that is...but no one is disputing that he's a talented young quarterback. Or, at least I'm not.

Reality actually tells us that he is 17-20 and has never played in a playoff game. :noidea: Let the excuses begin.

What brought this on is this is Cutler's body of work.. If you can drop the biased toward him and really look at what he has done, his body of work holds up against anyone that has ever played the game..

With these numbers it is pretty clear you could have stuck any QB who has ever played on the Broncos of the last couple years and they wouldn't have done any better. In fact if anything it shows most wouldn't have even been able to win as much as the Cutler lead team..

[tubby]

The Buffalo game rating is lying to you. Cutler scored 2 rushing TDs in that game. Not to mention the Defense blew a lead going into the 4th quarter. They gave up a 65 yard pass when we needed them to hold.

I refuse to blame the Buffalo game on Cutler. Blame the Miami game and even the NE game if you would like since Cutler played like a dog in those games, but the Buffalo game was almost all the defense's problem.

Our offense would have scored somewhere around 28 points if the defense wasn't forcing us to go for it on 4th down multiple times.

I only remember going for it on 4th down once and that was at the end of the game when Cutler missed an open Stokley (again). But yeah lets just forget about the 4th quarter goal line INT and 10 4th quarter incompletions.

I'll share the blame myself.

[LoyalSoldier]

I only remember going for it on 4th down once and that was at the end of the game when Cutler missed an open Stokley (again). But yeah lets just forget about the 4th quarter goal line INT and 10 4th quarter incompletions.

I'll share the blame myself.

I forgot to erase that last part. I was going to talk about the San Diego game which is where that came from. I wasn't referring to the Buffalo game.

[fcspikeit]

The Buffalo game rating is lying to you. Cutler scored 2 rushing TDs in that game. Not to mention the Defense blew a lead going into the 4th quarter. They gave up a 65 yard pass when we needed them to hold.

I refuse to blame the Buffalo game on Cutler. Blame the Miami game and even the NE game if you would like since Cutler played like a dog in those games, but the Buffalo game was almost all the defense's problem.

Our offense would have scored somewhere around 28 points if the defense wasn't forcing us to go for it on 4th down multiple times.

Its funny to me, Every QB in this league has bad games. Manning threw 6 Int's in one game and people want to only look at the few bad games Cutler has had.

If every QB in the league was held to that slandered, they all would be be seen as terrible QB's..

[Watchthemiddle]

Our offense would have scored somewhere around 28 points if the defense wasn't forcing us to go for it on 4th down multiple times.


This is one of my all time favorite excuses. :laugh:

What baffles me is, if our Offense was SOOO spectacular led by the second coming himself "Jay CUtler" they why weren't we hanging 35 ppg on teams? OUr offense was 2nd in the league at yards gained with 395.8 ypg, but 16th in the league in scoring averaging 23.1 ppg.

I will give you our D sucked, but our O sure didn't help much. Especially
In the games we lost:
Oak at Den 31-10
Den at CAR 30-10
Buf at Den 30-23
Den at SD 52-21
Mia at Den 26-17
Den at NE 41-7
Jac at Den 24-17
Den at KC 33-19

In the games we lost, our offense only averaged 15.5 ppg.
Ya, its all on the defense. :rolleyes:

[honz]

The Buffalo game rating is lying to you. Cutler scored 2 rushing TDs in that game. Not to mention the Defense blew a lead going into the 4th quarter. They gave up a 65 yard pass when we needed them to hold.

I refuse to blame the Buffalo game on Cutler. Blame the Miami game and even the NE game if you would like since Cutler played like a dog in those games, but the Buffalo game was almost all the defense's problem.

Our offense would have scored somewhere around 28 points if the defense wasn't forcing us to go for it on 4th down multiple times.

I rarely "bash" Cutler's play as I think he is a good QB, although not as good as some on this board seem to think...but I disagree with you. The Broncos had 2 chances to score towards the end of the game and Cutler threw an INT in the redzone and missed 2 or 3 WIDE open recievers that likely would have resulted in TD's if he would have hit them. I think Cutler is generally very good in the 4th Q, but he flat out did not get it done in the most important game he has ever played in the NFL.

[LoyalSoldier]

This is one of my all time favorite excuses.

What baffles me is, if our Offense was SOOO spectacular led by the second coming himself "Jay CUtler" they why weren't we hanging 35 ppg on teams? OUr offense was 2nd in the league at yards gained with 395.8 ypg, but 16th in the league in scoring averaging 23.1 ppg.

I will give you our D sucked, but our O sure didn't help much. Especially
In the games we lost:
Oak at Den 31-10
Den at CAR 30-10
Buf at Den 30-23
Den at SD 52-21
Mia at Den 26-17
Den at NE 41-7
Jac at Den 24-17
Den at KC 33-19

In the games we lost, our offense only averaged 15.5 ppg.
Ya, its all on the defense. :rolleyes:

Well in a normal game wouldn't you try to kick a field goal if it was 4th down and you were inside field goal range right? Instead we went for it on 4th down because our defense was allowing a score every single possession.

Here is the Charger's drive summery from the last game.

Field Goal
Touchdown
Touchdown
Touchdown
End of Half
Touchdown
Touchdown
Punt
Touchdown
Touchdown


There is no way in hell that doesn't effect the offense.

[OMorange&blue]

You can make all the excuses you want. When a playoff birth was on the line the last 3 weeks of the season Cutler sucked.

Week 15 @ CAR - QB rating 74.3
Week 16 BUF - QB rating 72.4
Week 17 @ SD - QB rating 74.9

TD to INT ratio during the last 3 weeks of the season......1:2

Cutler has yet to win a meaningfull game in his NFL career. Will he ever? TBD

:fish:

:violin:


Dude Elway is the suxor!!1!! he can't win the big o.... oh, shit sorry. Wrong discussion.

[honz]

Its funny to me, Every QB in this league has bad games. Manning threw 6 Int's in one game and people want to only look at the few bad games Cutler has had.

If every QB in the league was held to that slandered, they all would be be seen as terrible QB's..

There are probably 10 people max on here who think Cutler is a bad QB, so stop exaggerating using hyperbole. Most of the "Cutler bashers" simply dislike certain aspects of his personality/attitude and don't think that he is as good as many on here make him out to be.

[LoyalSoldier]

Dude Elway is the suxor!!1!! he can't win the big o.... oh, shit sorry. Wrong discussion.

It is actually quite ironic that Elway's situation and Cutler's have more parallels than people are willing at admit. Shows you Denver hasn't changed in 21 years.

[tubby]

Dude Elway is the suxor!!1!! he can't win the big o.... oh, shit sorry. Wrong discussion.

When all else fails lets compare Jay Cutler to John Elway. Perfect.

[fcspikeit]

There are probably 10 people max on here who think Cutler is a bad QB, so stop exaggerating using hyperbole. Most of the "Cutler bashers" simply dislike certain aspects of his personality/attitude and don't think that he is as good as many on here make him out to be.

I'll be honest, when I set out to compare Cutler's win lose record with the other good QB's who have played this game, I really thought he would be around 0. Meaning he was as good as the average good-great QB.

I was really surprised to see how well he stacked up against the very greatest of all time. In his first 3 years, what he has been able to do is incredible! He has done even better that I gave him credit for..

He looks to only get better then he has been, he has improved over each year. Even if he didn't get any better, it would be crazy to even consider trading him.

Also, I didn't mean to exaggerate, I like to think there are still more Broncos fans that know how good Cutler is. Therefore I wouldn't intentionally imply there are more who bash his play then there are who praise it. :beer:

[Watchthemiddle]

Well in a normal game wouldn't you try to kick a field goal if it was 4th down and you were inside field goal range right? Instead we went for it on 4th down because our defense was allowing a score every single possession.

Here is the Charger's drive summery from the last game.

Field Goal
Touchdown
Touchdown
Touchdown
End of Half
Touchdown
Touchdown
Punt
Touchdown
Touchdown


There is no way in hell that doesn't effect the offense.

Same can be said about our offense going 3 and out repeatedly and turning the ball over inside the red zone adn coming away with 0 points. Even just coming away with 3 instead of 7 sure does effect the defense.

The Charger game was anything but normal.

The Chargers game is another game often used as an excuse to bash the defense. Even if we take that game out of the equation, our offense averaged under 15ppg in our loses.

Again, our defense was horrific but in our loses, our offense did not help much. Don't give me this FG stuff either and going for it on 4th down. Maybe in the Chargers game, but in the other 7 loses going for it on 4th down inside FG range was rare.

[weazel]

yes he is ...oh sorry, thought you were asking if Cutler was a whiner.


Seriously, I think Cutler has all the skill in the world and given the right circumstances, he could lead the Broncos to a trophy or two. The one thing holding him back at the moment is his lack of composure.

[bullis26]

is cutler a winner? 17-20, NO
doesnt matter about anything else, the defense or whatever, it might not be cutlers fault that his team loses, but he is part of that team is he not? If you are on a team that loses you too are losing. he didnt win much in college either.... calvin johnson is still a loser yet is it his fault his team is losing? NO! football is a team sport, you cant just blame one person for winning or losing, you win together and you lose together.... if you guys want to watch an individual sport go watch golf or tennis..... this is a team sport the broncos are 17-20 since cutler took over thats a losing record

cutlers a loser bottom line

[Lonestar]

You can make all the excuses you want. When a playoff birth was on the line the last 3 weeks of the season Cutler sucked.

Week 15 @ CAR - QB rating 74.3
Week 16 BUF - QB rating 72.4
Week 17 @ SD - QB rating 74.9

TD to INT ratio during the last 3 weeks of the season......1:2

Cutler has yet to win a meaningfull game in his NFL career. Will he ever? TBD

:fish:

:violin:


hey he beat San at home last year.. almost single handed :salute:





oh I forgot that was the Game Eddie bailed him out it..:laugh::laugh:

[Watchthemiddle]

hey he beat San at home last year.. almost single handed :salute:





oh I forgot that was the Game Eddie bailed him out it..:laugh::laugh:

And a certain ref...:eek:

[bullis26]

hey he beat San at home last year.. almost single handed :salute:





oh I forgot that was the Game Eddie bailed him out it..:laugh::laugh:

a player almost single handedly beat another team?

So there was no O-line or WR or Rb or TE's out on the field with him? he didnt have a special teams or a defense? those aspects might not have been good, but without them it wouldnt be close 1 v 11
im tired of people thinking that one player makes a team

Not to mention a little help by a ref

[Lonestar]

And a certain ref...:eek:


Eddie Houckli who I was referring to DUH............... WTM you are dense sometimes..

[Northman]

this is a team sport the broncos are 17-20 since cutler took over thats a losing record

cutlers a loser bottom line

True, 17-20 is a losing record. Elway was 2-3 in SB's and thats a losing record as well. Just saying.

[Lonestar]

a player almost single handedly beat another team?

So there was no O-line or WR or Rb or TE's out on the field with him? he didnt have a special teams or a defense? those aspects might not have been good, but without them it wouldnt be close 1 v 11
im tired of people thinking that one player makes a team

Not to mention a little help by a ref


guess you failed at Understanding Sarcasm 101 also..

[omac]

I posted this in another thread already, but I think it's deserving of its own thread, that way more people will get the chance to see it.

Check this site out... http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=1808



I was able to break his formula down with his Joe Namath example.

Here is how it works.

When the defense gives up 0 - 10 the QB should win 0.935 of the time.
When the defense gives up 11 - 15 the QB should win 0.761 of the time.
When the defense gives up 16 - 20 the QB should win 0.526 of the time.
When the defense gives up 21 - 25 the QB should win 0.388 of the time.
When the defense gives up 26 - 33 the QB should win 0.170 of the time.
When the defense gives up 34 + the QB should win 0.036 of the time.

So what you do is Times the total # of games in each group by the % in each group, then add them all together. Then subtract that from the total # of games actually won by the QB. If the QB is a + he is winning more then he should. If he is a -, he is losing more then he should..

How did Cutler add up? With this formula, Cutler should have won 12.1 of the 37 games he started. He actually won 17 so he won roughly 5 (4.841) more games then he should have been able to.

When you compare him to the others on the list, remember he has only played in 37 total games. Compared to Elway’s 252 and Manning’s 191. To put things in perspective, if we times Cutlers 37 by 6 = 222. Now times Cutler’s + 4.841 by 6, that = + 29.0..

Also, using this formula, with the average NFL QB the Broncos should have won just under 5 games last year (4.8). So with Cutler under center, the Broncos won 3 more games last year over what the average NFL QB would be expected to win.


The findings are clear. Cutler is winning more games then he should be able to win with this defense.

*Edit* I felt it important for everyone to understand what they mean when they say average NFL QB. This isn't just field run guys who were drafted to play QB. The average comes from what NFL QB's who have played in 50 or more games have been able to do. So in other words. That is a carrier starter or a guy who was good enough to start for at least 50 games.

fcspikeit, great, great research and great, great work! :salute:

It's similar to reading articles from Football Outsiders, and nice objectivity in your approach. Cutler could've ended up with a negative rating, but it turned out, he'd actually won more than most would've with this defense.

Since this study puts Cutler in a good light, Cutler bashers will not put much credence to it. That's cherry picking. :D

[bullis26]

True, 17-20 is a losing record. Elway was 2-3 in SB's and thats a losing record as well. Just saying.

Elway got to the post season though did he not? Just saying.

[Watchthemiddle]

Eddie Houckli who I was referring to DUH............... WTM you are dense sometimes..

Ohhhhhh....I was thinking Eddie Royal.....

So he actually got bailed out by two Eddie's in that game. :D

[bullis26]

guess you failed at Understanding Sarcasm 101 also..

thought it might be but when somebody says something like that they usually believe it

[bullis26]

Ohhhhhh....I was thinking Eddie Royal.....

So he actually got bailed out by two Eddie's in that game. :D

he got a lot from Brandon also

[silkamilkamonico]

True, 17-20 is a losing record. Elway was 2-3 in SB's and thats a losing record as well. Just saying.

The fact that Elway won 2 SuperBowl games automatically means he's won 2 more "big time games" in SuperBowls alone than Culter has in his entire career added up, including regular season games.

But hey! Who cares about winning SuperBowls when you have the stronger arm of the two!

:beer:

[EMB6903]

hey he beat San at home last year.. almost single handed :salute:





oh I forgot that was the Game Eddie bailed him out it..:laugh::laugh:

Cutler put the ball on the money both that 4th down and 2 point conversion... my goodness you are an absolute HATER when it comes to Cutler these days... its sickening.

[omac]

The fact that Elway won 2 SuperBowl games automatically means he's won 2 more "big time games" in SuperBowls alone than Culter has in his entire career added up, including regular season games.

But hey! Who cares about winning SuperBowls when you have the stronger arm of the two!

:beer:

Exactly! Grossman proved to be a far better QB than Cutler, Plummer, Rivers, Brees, because he reached the superbowl, something none of these QBs have been able as yet to do. :cheers:

[fcspikeit]

a player almost single handedly beat another team?

So there was no O-line or WR or Rb or TE's out on the field with him? he didnt have a special teams or a defense? those aspects might not have been good, but without them it wouldnt be close 1 v 11
im tired of people thinking that one player makes a team

Not to mention a little help by a ref

Your absolutely right. Football is a team sport! As a "team" the Broncos have indeed lost more then they won.. So many people want to put the 17 - 20 record on Cutler as if he was the only one on the field. He was not. I've said it 100 times and I'll say it again. Judging a QB by his team's win lose record alone is stupid!

However, for those who want to point to the win lose record of the Broncos to support their bashing of Cutler, now they can plainly see how dumb that really is.. Cutler has not hurt this team in any way shape or form. In fact just the opposite. He has helped this team to more wins then could be expected from even the all time greats. :beer:

[Watchthemiddle]

Your absolutely right. Football is a team sport! As a "team" the Broncos have indeed lost more then they won.. So many people want to put the 17 - 20 record on Cutler as if he was the only one on the field. He was not. I've said it 100 times and I'll say it again. Judging a QB by his team's win lose record alone is stupid!

However, for those who want to point to the win lose record of the Broncos to support their bashing of Cutler, now they can plainly see how dumb that really is.. Cutler has not hurt this team in any way shape or form. In fact just the opposite. He has helped this team to more wins then could be expected from even the all time greats. :beer:

When its all said and done though, Cutler will be attached to his yards, td's, and win/lost record...not too mention any playoff and super bowl wins and appearances.

When Champ retires, he is not going to be remembered for his win/lose record. Neither will B-Marsh, Nalen, DJ Williams, or Terrell Davis.

The QB touches the ball on every play during an offense's series. He is the one who is supposed to make adjustments at the line ( not sure if Cutler does this well yet or not ) and essentially audibles to a better play if needed. ( something Cutler will be demanded in doing in Josh's system).

That is why the QB is remembered for more than yards and stats. Its all about winning.

[EMB6903]

Reading all the haters comments in this thread is hilarious...great entertainment

Thanks for the read guys! (you all know who you are)

[slim]

Yes, I think he is a whiner.

[getlynched47]

remarkable work man :salute:

Glad to see stats to back up what I've been saying for months. JAY CUTLER is NOT the reason we havent been to the playoffs the last 3 years. Period.

[KCL]

Oh a winner...at first I thought it said whiner.

[getlynched47]

this thread should be stickied. It's sacred...

[KCL]

this thread should be stickied. It's sacred...

I'll say....hell sticky all of them.

[Foochacho]

Cutlers not a winner yet but he is an emo fag. I bet he wears capri pants and buys shirts from Hot Topic.

[getlynched47]

Cutlers not a winner yet but he is an emo fag. I bet he wears capri pants and buys shirts from Hot Topic.

:coffee:

Take your 2nd grader smack back to elementary school :coffee:

[fcspikeit]

Cutlers not a winner yet but he is an emo fag. I bet he wears capri pants and buys shirts from Hot Topic.

We have a forum for these type of post's.. Will one of the mods please clean this up?

Seriously, if this were a Bolts fan talking trash/smack about Cutler he would be told to keep that crap out of this forum. Why should it be any different for a Bronco fan?

[Foochacho]

It's not smack its an observation. My eyes don't deceive me.

[Foochacho]

Look at tubby's avatar it is fact.

[getlynched47]

It's not smack its an observation. My eyes don't deceive me.

You said:


I bet he wears capri pants and buys shirts from Hot Topic.

great observation :rolleyes:...........FAIL

[fcspikeit]

It's not smack its an observation. My eyes don't deceive me.

You can support any opinion you want, however, I would rather this thread not turn into one of the many other Cutler bashing threads.

Please keep the discussion on the OP.. TIA :salute:

[KCL]

You can support any opinion you want, however, I would rather this thread not turn into one of the many other Cutler bashing threads.

Please keep the discussion on the OP.. TIA :salute:

well it is in the smack forum...one of the mods must have moved it.

[getlynched47]

You can support any opinion you want, however, I would rather this thread not turn into one of the many other Cutler bashing threads.

Please keep the discussion on the OP.. TIA :salute:

sorry. That poster is incapable of meaningful conversation :salute:

[fcspikeit]

well it is in the smack forum...one of the mods must have moved it.

It's in Broncos talk? :confused:

[KCL]

It's in Broncos talk? :confused:

:lol:

I guess it got moved back here.

[fcspikeit]

sorry. That poster is incapable of meaningful conversation :salute:

Well I personally have no problem with Foo .. He isn't the only one taking shots.

IMO criticism with the OP is fine but just talking smack about Cutler is just a form of baiting. It only leads to the intent of the thread getting derailed and lost in all the BS..

I suppose we are also contributing to that with this off topic discussion :D

[KCL]

fc...this was never in smack...I am just messing with you...:D
I'll stop now!

[Foochacho]

I'm not trying to derail anything just sick of talking about the whole mess of it all. I would much rather talk about Jay's capri pants.

[getlynched47]

Well I personally have no problem with Foo .. He isn't the only one taking shots.

IMO criticism with the OP is fine but just talking smack about Cutler is just a form of baiting. It only leads to the intent of the thread getting derailed and lost in all the BS..

I suppose we are also contributing to that with this off topic discussion :D

I love how he said that he wasn't talking smack but making an observation, and then he came out with this:


I bet he wears capri pants and buys shirts from Hot Topic.

what an amazing observation :rolleyes:

anyways back on topic. I am amazed with all the stats you compiled. Must of took hours...

[Foochacho]

I love how he said that he wasn't talking smack but making an observation, and then he came out with this:



what an amazing observation :rolleyes:

anyways back on topic. I am amazed with all the stats you compiled. Must of took hours...

Damn you are highstrung must be all that coffee youv'e been drinking.

[Foochacho]

You should lay off the coffee and try some Tab.

[CrazyHorse]

Nope! Jay Cutler totally sucks. Trade him for Matt Cassel. He's 11-4 as starter. We would totally be ripping off KC though. We might have to through in a first. Our first and Jay Cutler for Matt Cassel. Sound good right?
Better yet we throw in Scheff, Marshall, and Hillis, for Gonzalez & LJ
Cutler, Scheffler, Marshall, Hillis and a 1st for Matt Cassel, Tony Gonzalez, and Larry Johnson
If Cassel Doesn't Pan out we lure Jake Plummer out of retirement or trade for Gerrard, Clemons, or Lemon!
Hahaha

[CrazyHorse]

You should lay off the coffee and try some Tab.
Isn't tab diet. With Aspartame that shiznit is bad 4u.

[BroncoJoe]

The Buffalo game rating is lying to you. Cutler scored 2 rushing TDs in that game. Not to mention the Defense blew a lead going into the 4th quarter. They gave up a 65 yard pass when we needed them to hold.

I refuse to blame the Buffalo game on Cutler. Blame the Miami game and even the NE game if you would like since Cutler played like a dog in those games, but the Buffalo game was almost all the defense's problem.

Our offense would have scored somewhere around 28 points if the defense wasn't forcing us to go for it on 4th down multiple times.

Yeah. That redzone interception with around five minutes left was pure genius.

P.S. He actually threw two interceptions on that drive, the first one called back because of a defensive holding call on Buffalo.

[Foochacho]

Isn't tab diet. With Aspartame that shiznit is bad 4u.

Tab is disgusting

[Foochacho]

We need a Tab smiley to replace the coffee one. Some people are getting strungout from over use of that thing.

[Lonestar]

Cutler put the ball on the money both that 4th down and 2 point conversion... my goodness you are an absolute HATER when it comes to Cutler these days... its sickening.


but he would not have done so after he fumbled the ball.. and was bailed out by the ref.. what comes first the chicken or the egg.

not to mention had champ really picked the ball and not have another ref blow it would it have been even remotely close in that game..

Dispel the notion I hate jay.. I do not, he is my QB, just wish he would act like a leader..

I do not hate the guy merely calling a spade a spade.. and the jay lovers can't handle the truth/facts..

easy to call names when you really can't refute the facts..

[BroncoJoe]

True, 17-20 is a losing record. Elway was 2-3 in SB's and thats a losing record as well. Just saying.

:tsk:

That's FIVE appearances in the biggest game.

[EMB6903]

but he would not have done so after he fumbled the ball.. and was bailed out by the ref.. what comes first the chicken or the egg.

not to mention had champ really picked the ball and not have another ref blow it would it have been even remotely close in that game..

Dispel the notion I hate jay.. I do not, he is my QB, just wish he would act like a leader..

I do not hate the guy merely calling a spade a spade.. and the jay lovers can't handle the truth/facts..

easy to call names when you really can't refute the facts..

its not Cutler's fault that Hochuli made a horrible decision and called the play dead.. Denver got another chance and Cutler took advantage of it by throwing 2 amazing balls to Royal.

Jay Cutler was 36-50 for 370 yards 4 touchdowns with 1 int he dominated... for him to have those kind of stats and STILL have to come back in the fourth quarter tells you how bad the defense really was.

[Lonestar]

its not Cutler's fault that Hochuli made a horrible decision and called the play dead.. Denver got another chance and Cutler took advantage of it by throwing 2 amazing balls to Royal.

Jay Cutler was 36-50 for 370 yards 4 touchdowns with 1 int he dominated... for him to have those kind of stats and STILL have to come back in the fourth quarter tells you how bad the defense really was.

but you just do not get it do you..

even though he made those throws he fumbled the ball and had the ref made the right call he would have lost the chance to come back..

We did not deserve that win nor did he deserve to throw those "amazing passes"..

Not to mention the lousy call on Champs pick in the first half.. sorry but he got a freebie there and I know this was one reason they kicked our ass in the last game and we had no answer either on Offense or Defense..

Look I realize you have serious man love for this kid and have a ball.More power to you, just do not be totally crushed when he bails cause he did not get his way..

[EMB6903]

but you just do not get it do you..

even though he made those throws he fumbled the ball and had the ref made the right call he would have lost the chance to come back..

We did not deserve that win nor did he deserve to throw those "amazing passes"..

Not to mention the lousy call on Champs pick in the first half.. sorry but he got a freebie there and I know this was one reason they kicked our ass in the last game and we had no answer either on Offense or Defense..

Look I realize you have serious man love for this kid and have a ball.More power to you, just do not be totally crushed when he bails cause he did not get his way..


Yes he fumbled the ball he made a mistake...what Im trying to get at is it is amazing it had to come down to that when a Quarterback completes 70 percent of his passes for 370 yards and 4 touchdowns and 1 int


Champ causes a turnover and cutler gets a "freebie" thats comical....

Here you go with the "man love" nonsense.... You have been going with that since I started coming here in 2008.. its cool and all just a little played out.. dont you think?

look I know you got your feelings hurt when Cutler said he wanted to be traded... I know you want a "veteran leader" as your quarterback... some one you can look up to and all, but you have to realize hes only 25 years old and has only played 3 years... Give the kid some time to mature

Was Phillip Rivers a respected "leader" his 3rd year in the league?

Steve Young? Eli Manning? Donavon Mcnabb? Brett Favre? John Elway?

was Michael Jordan a "leader" his 3rd year in the league?

[sneakers]

but you just do not get it do you..

even though he made those throws he fumbled the ball and had the ref made the right call he would have lost the chance to come back..

We did not deserve that win nor did he deserve to throw those "amazing passes"..

Not to mention the lousy call on Champs pick in the first half.. sorry but he got a freebie there and I know this was one reason they kicked our ass in the last game and we had no answer either on Offense or Defense..

Look I realize you have serious man love for this kid and have a ball.More power to you, just do not be totally crushed when he bails cause he did not get his way..


It wasn't a fumble. :mad:

[Lonestar]

Yes he fumbled the ball he made a mistake...what Im trying to get at is it is amazing it had to come down to that when a Quarterback completes 70 percent of his passes for 370 yards and 4 touchdowns and 1 int


Champ causes a turnover and cutler gets a "freebie" thats comical....

Here you go with the "man love" nonsense.... You have been going with that since I started coming here in 2008.. its cool and all just a little played out.. dont you think?

look I know you got your feelings hurt when Cutler said he wanted to be traded... I know you want a "veteran leader" as your quarterback... some one you can look up to and all, but you have to realize hes only 25 years old and has only played 3 years... Give the kid some time to mature

Was Phillip Rivers a respected "leader" his 3rd year in the league?

Steve Young? Eli Manning? Donavon Mcnabb? Brett Favre? John Elway?

was Michael Jordan a "leader" his 3rd year in the league?


look I have no issue with jay as a QB if he does mature..

Until he does I see not reason to give him new contract.. something about rewarding kiddies for bad behavior.

If he will not play out the old one and give it a try with Josh then set his ass on the bench and play someone that will.. pro bowl QB or not..

if he is unwilling to set down with the HC like a man and talk it out he IMHO is worthless as a teat on a boar..

as long as he is away he can't connect with his teammates nor get timing down in a new scheme..

he talks about team, but he does walk with his team..

[Lonestar]

It wasn't a fumble. :mad:

your the only person that does not get it then..

when the ref apologizes for making a bad call, trust me it was a fumble..

[Elevation inc]

look I have no issue with jay as a QB if he does mature..

Until he does I see not reason to give him new contract.. something about rewarding kiddies for bad behavior.

If he will not play out the old one and give it a try with Josh then set his ass on the bench and play someone that will.. pro bowl QB or not..

if he is unwilling to set down with the HC like a man and talk it out he IMHO is worthless as a teat on a boar..
as long as he is away he can't connect with his teammates nor get timing down in a new scheme..

he talks about team, but he does walk with his team..

if you can leave it at that without adding some of the extra fluff, i will agree in some context with you. Fact is he is under contract, fact is MCD said he is the QB, fact is nothing is mandatory for him to comply with. for all any of you know this could be silently heading towards a closure, so for the same reasons you want to wait on jay.......well those same reasons are at times why we arent all over MCD's bandwagon either.

neither party handled it well, and both have some severe work and making up to do.

i personally agree that cutler doesnt need the new contract yet. He should step out, prove he is this teams QB and dominate next year, he does that i have complete faith the fans and FO will back him 100%.

unless of course MCD puts together a crappy defense, and then we will be at square 1, trying to get cassel because MCD doesnt realize it was the defense....lol;)

[Dirk]

Wow, I just read this entire thread.

First off...good job on the stats guys!

Second, whichever side you are on, if it be on the "Cutler is King" or "Cutler is Average" or "Cutler Sucks", you will hardly ever change the other person's mind.

Each side of the issue can be rationalized to work towards their view of Cutler. Some arguments are facts or stats and others are objective.

[WhatEver!!!]

A poster at the Colts forum found a flaw in that this doesn't take into account the fact that if a QB played more games then he could have a larger sum than another QB who played at the same level for fewer games.

To correct for this I took a percent difference. I took the difference and divided it by the expected wins.

So for the articles data.

Manning 31.2/92.8 = +34%
Elway 27.5/134.5 = +20%
Brady 27.1/73.9 = +37%
Farve 26.3/154.7 = +17%
Marino 25.2/129.8 = +19%
Montana 23.9/109.1 = +22%

Now if we take the Cutler data above ignoring the error I previously posted.

4.8/12.1 = 40%

If you see a problem with my math let me know, but otherwise don't complain to me if you don't like the numbers.


Just for a reference point can someone do the numbers for Jake Delhomme from the Carolina Panthers or another current middle of the road QB.

[Northman]

Elway got to the post season though did he not? Just saying.

That wasnt what you stated in your initial post though so the postseason argument is irrelevant in this situation. Now, if you want to backpeddle and clarify yourself than by all means please do. :lol:

[Northman]

The fact that Elway won 2 SuperBowl games automatically means he's won 2 more "big time games" in SuperBowls alone than Culter has in his entire career added up, including regular season games.

But hey! Who cares about winning SuperBowls when you have the stronger arm of the two!

:beer:

See my last post. If you going to make an argument be sure to clarify yourself otherwise you leave the door WIDE open.

[Shazam!]

Even Elway's urine stream is stronger than Cutler's.

[Northman]

Yeah. That redzone interception with around five minutes left was pure genius.



Yea, we've never seen a QB do that before....wait.....

[bullis26]

Cutler 17-20 enough said

[Simple Jaded]

13-1.......nuff said.......

[MOtorboat]

13-1.......nuff said.......

When did he go 13-1? :confused:

[bullis26]

13-1.......nuff said.......

in High School maybe....but he had a losing record in college, and has a losing record in the pros

[Simple Jaded]

in High School maybe....but he had a losing record in college, and has a losing record in the pros

13-1.......do some research.......nuff said.......

[MOtorboat]

13-1.......do some research.......nuff said.......

Yeah, I remember that start to that season...no...wait...that was with John Elway, I think.

:rolleyes:

[MOtorboat]

13-1.......do some research.......nuff said.......

Furthermore...unfortunately for Mr. Cutler, you have to count every game. :noidea:

[bullis26]

13-1.......do some research.......nuff said.......

he's never been 13-1 in the NFL, NUFF SAID!

[Lonestar]

Furthermore...unfortunately for Mr. Cutler, you have to count every game. :noidea:


easier to cherry pick or fantasize..:salute:

[getlynched47]

Cutler 17-20 enough said

Without Cutler, we would be lucky to win half of those games.

He carried this team on his back. He had no defense to lean on. He had no running game to take some pressure off of him. Yet he got us 8 wins with such a crappy defense and a runningback landing on IR weekly.

I honestly dont see what else you want Cutler to prove. A franchise QB carries his team, kind of like how Peyton Manning carried to Colts out of mediocrity into a perenial Super Bowl contender. Cutler has carried this team 2 years in a row. Enough said :coffee:

[MOtorboat]

Without Cutler, we would be lucky to win half of those games.

He carried this team on his back. He had no defense to lean on. He had no running game to take some pressure off of him. Yet he got us 8 wins with such a crappy defense and a runningback landing on IR weekly.

I honestly dont see what else you want Cutler to prove. A franchise QB carries his team, kind of like how Peyton Manning carried to Colts out of mediocrity into a perenial Super Bowl contender. Cutler has carried this team 2 years in a row. Enough said :coffee:

In your opinion...yes...

I would agree with you...however, it's not a very debatable points, as those games happened, and as I've learned from people here, it's all about ALL 53 players.

[getlynched47]

In your opinion...yes...

I would agree with you...however, it's not a very debatable points, as those games happened, and as I've learned from people here, it's all about ALL 53 players.

It is about 53 players, Cutler led this team to a 7-9 and an 8-8 record with 53 players minus 11 players on defense.

No :defense: in Denver. Do you honestly believe that some average scrub QB like Chris Simms could've matched or even exceeded Cutler's record with what we had defensively?

If it's about 53, then Cutler should be commerorated because he picked up the slack from all of the defense and the countless runningbacks bitten by the injury bug :salute:

[MOtorboat]

It is about 53 players, Cutler led this team to a 7-9 and an 8-8 record with 53 players minus 11 players on defense.

Well, you can't really play that game.

Jay Cutler's record as a starter is 17-20. Period.

I'm sorry that this hurts everyone's feelings, but it's a fact.

[getlynched47]

Well, you can't really play that game.

Jay Cutler's record as a starter is 17-20. Period.

I'm sorry that this hurts everyone's feelings, but it's a fact.

Not his fault that his record is so poor.

Blame the non-existent defense...they're at fault for it and that's a fact.

[MOtorboat]

Not his fault that his record is so poor.

Blame the non-existent defense...they're at fault for it and that's a fact.

Well, it sucks to be him, then doesn't it, because that, is, in fact, his record.

[tubby]

Well, it sucks to be him, then doesn't it, because that, is, in fact, his record.

6 commas.....seriously is that even legal?

[getlynched47]

Well, it sucks to be him, then doesn't it, because that, is, in fact, his record.

So then you're saying that Cutler sucks because of his record? (which is so bad because of that damn defense)

[MOtorboat]

6 commas.....seriously is that even legal?

Say it out loud. I had to use the commas.

I hated it though. Commas are the child of the devil.

[MOtorboat]

So then you're saying that Cutler sucks because of his record? (which is so bad because of that damn defense)

Didn't really say that either.

It is what it is. And regardless of his defense, he has to win more games. Especially if he's the super star that a lot of people around here think he is.

[getlynched47]

Didn't really say that either.

It is what it is. And regardless of his defense, he has to win more games. Especially if he's the super star that a lot of people around here think he is.

Like I said earlier, I don't see how you expect Cutler to win more games without any help. The only Quarterback capable of doing such a thing is Peyton Manning.

Cutler is the only one keeping this team from sinking down to Mediocrityville (population: Oakland Raiders)

You should be glad that we haven't had to endure <4 wins a season with this aweful defense, and that's thanks to Jay Cutler.

[tubby]

Didn't really say that either.

It is what it is. And regardless of his defense, he has to win more games. Especially if he's the super star that a lot of people around here think he is.

How dare you? Cutler is the man dude. It wasn't his fault the 2008 team was built to win on offense and choked a fat dick down the stretch. I remember one time when Eddie Royal dropped a ball....see?

[MOtorboat]

Like I said earlier, I don't see how you expect Cutler to win more games without any help. The only Quarterback capable of doing such a thing is Peyton Manning.

Cutler is the only one keeping this team from sinking down to Mediocrityville (population: Oakland Raiders)

You should be glad that we haven't had to endure <4 wins a season with this aweful defense, and that's thanks to Jay Cutler.

Oh, I'm appreciative, but I also understand that that was more Shanahan than Cutler. As much as everyone hates Brian Griese and Jake Plummer, they had winning records as Broncos.


How dare you? Cutler is the man dude. It wasn't his fault the 2008 team was built to win on offense and choked a fat dick down the stretch. I remember one time when Eddie Royal dropped a ball....see?

Yeah, and Marshall had a bunch of them...he also dropped the ball in the suspension area.

[getlynched47]

Oh, I'm appreciative, but I also understand that that was more Shanahan than Cutler. As much as everyone hates Brian Griese and Jake Plummer, they had winning records as Broncos.

Yeah Griese had most of the Super Bowl Denver D still in tact, and Jake Plummer had Clinton Portis and that vicious :defense:

Cutler has neither...

[MOtorboat]

Yeah Griese had most of the Super Bowl Denver D still in tact, and Jake Plummer had Clinton Portis and that vicious :defense:

Cutler has neither...

I'm sorry, but quit making excuses.

Jake Plummer led this team to a 7-4 record in 2006. We missed the playoffs.

Jay Cutler in that season 2-5.

[bullis26]

Not his fault that his record is so poor.

Blame the non-existent defense...they're at fault for it and that's a fact.

so your saying cutler cant get better at all? everybody can get better, he threw 18 picks thats unacceptable.... yes his defense sucks, but thats no excuse, qb's job is to win games regardless of the personal around him..... Cutler also had a WR corps that neither plummer or griese had, forgot to leave that out of there and what about that line?

[rcsodak]

I posted this in another thread already, but I think it's deserving of its own thread, that way more people will get the chance to see it.

Check this site out... http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=1808



I was able to break his formula down with his Joe Namath example.

Here is how it works.

When the defense gives up 0 - 10 the QB should win 0.935 of the time.
When the defense gives up 11 - 15 the QB should win 0.761 of the time.
When the defense gives up 16 - 20 the QB should win 0.526 of the time.
When the defense gives up 21 - 25 the QB should win 0.388 of the time.
When the defense gives up 26 - 33 the QB should win 0.170 of the time.
When the defense gives up 34 + the QB should win 0.036 of the time.

So what you do is Times the total # of games in each group by the % in each group, then add them all together. Then subtract that from the total # of games actually won by the QB. If the QB is a + he is winning more then he should. If he is a -, he is losing more then he should..

How did Cutler add up? With this formula, Cutler should have won 12.1 of the 37 games he started. He actually won 17 so he won roughly 5 (4.841) more games then he should have been able to.

When you compare him to the others on the list, remember he has only played in 37 total games. Compared to Elway’s 252 and Manning’s 191. To put things in perspective, if we times Cutlers 37 by 6 = 222. Now times Cutler’s + 4.841 by 6, that = + 29.0..

Also, using this formula, with the average NFL QB the Broncos should have won just under 5 games last year (4.8). So with Cutler under center, the Broncos won 3 more games last year over what the average NFL QB would be expected to win.


The findings are clear. Cutler is winning more games then he should be able to win with this defense.

*Edit* I felt it important for everyone to understand what they mean when they say average NFL QB. This isn't just field run guys who were drafted to play QB. The average comes from what NFL QB's who have played in 50 or more games have been able to do. So in other words. That is a carrier starter or a guy who was good enough to start for at least 50 games.
What crap. I bet anybody good with math could make just about any qb look better than he really is.

And how far back do they go, when figuring out this "avg qb"?

This looks like something a bored college kid would dream up.

And "timesing" out games, on cut-n-run'er, is like saying "oooh, he threw 3td's in one game, so "times" that out over the season, and he should have 48td's!"

Lame. :coffee:

[rcsodak]

I posted this in another thread already, but I think it's deserving of its own thread, that way more people will get the chance to see it.

Check this site out... http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=1808



I was able to break his formula down with his Joe Namath example.

Here is how it works.

When the defense gives up 0 - 10 the QB should win 0.935 of the time.
When the defense gives up 11 - 15 the QB should win 0.761 of the time.
When the defense gives up 16 - 20 the QB should win 0.526 of the time.
When the defense gives up 21 - 25 the QB should win 0.388 of the time.
When the defense gives up 26 - 33 the QB should win 0.170 of the time.
When the defense gives up 34 + the QB should win 0.036 of the time.

So what you do is Times the total # of games in each group by the % in each group, then add them all together. Then subtract that from the total # of games actually won by the QB. If the QB is a + he is winning more then he should. If he is a -, he is losing more then he should..

How did Cutler add up? With this formula, Cutler should have won 12.1 of the 37 games he started. He actually won 17 so he won roughly 5 (4.841) more games then he should have been able to.

When you compare him to the others on the list, remember he has only played in 37 total games. Compared to Elway’s 252 and Manning’s 191. To put things in perspective, if we times Cutlers 37 by 6 = 222. Now times Cutler’s + 4.841 by 6, that = + 29.0..

Also, using this formula, with the average NFL QB the Broncos should have won just under 5 games last year (4.8). So with Cutler under center, the Broncos won 3 more games last year over what the average NFL QB would be expected to win.


The findings are clear. Cutler is winning more games then he should be able to win with this defense.

*Edit* I felt it important for everyone to understand what they mean when they say average NFL QB. This isn't just field run guys who were drafted to play QB. The average comes from what NFL QB's who have played in 50 or more games have been able to do. So in other words. That is a carrier starter or a guy who was good enough to start for at least 50 games.
What's even funnier, is the fact that it shows Jake at +2.9.

So I guess that just shows that he was actually better than his numbers. :)

[atwater27]

**** all you Cutler haters. I mean it. I am sick of you all. **** YOU. That is all.

[MOtorboat]

**** all you Cutler haters. I mean it. I am sick of you all. **** YOU. That is all.

I don't hate Cutler. I really, really, really want him to be a Bronco. I like him so much, I bought his jersey.

[Shazam!]

**** all you Cutler haters. I mean it. I am sick of you all. **** YOU. That is all.

The McDipshit stuff is getting old too. If he wins games here in 2009, he'll be McGenius in no time and we'll here stuff like "I NEVER said anything bad about McDaniels I've always loved him gawd he is sooooo great".

[tubby]

**** all you Cutler haters. I mean it. I am sick of you all. **** YOU. That is all.

I don't think anyone really hates Cutler. Maybe they just have a hard time blowing a QB that has yet to win a big game in the NFL and completely shit his pants down the stretch last year.

What?

[getlynched47]

so your saying cutler cant get better at all? everybody can get better, he threw 18 picks thats unacceptable.... yes his defense sucks, but thats no excuse, qb's job is to win games regardless of the personal around him..... Cutler also had a WR corps that neither plummer or griese had, forgot to leave that out of there and what about that line?

Of course he can get better, but he needs help. When you throw the ball 40-50 times per game because you're playing catch-up AND you can't get your running game going on a consistent basis, there's going to be interceptions.

You want to know how Cutler can get better? If all these 2nd tier defensive players that McDaniels signed come and make this defense at least middle of the pack. Then there will be less pressure on Cutler's shoulders, resulting in drastic improvement from him.

[getlynched47]

I'm sorry, but quit making excuses.

Jake Plummer led this team to a 7-4 record in 2006. We missed the playoffs.

Jay Cutler in that season 2-5.

He was a rookie with an undrafted rookie Runningback as his only thread, and a deteriorating defense who's play drastically fell off a cliff after that Thanksgiving game in Kansas City.

Don't even bring up Cutler's rookie year.

He didnt have Michael Turner or an Atlanta Falcons defense...

or the #1 Rushing offense in the league (Baltimore) and Ray Lewis on defense...

Those are the only reasons why Flacco and Matt Ryan were very successful their rookie season. Cutler didn't have that.

[Northman]

He was a rookie with an undrafted rookie Runningback as his only thread, and a deteriorating defense who's play drastically fell off a cliff after that Thanksgiving game in Kansas City.

Don't even bring up Cutler's rookie year.

He didnt have Michael Turner or an Atlanta Falcons defense...

or the #1 Rushing offense in the league (Baltimore) and Ray Lewis on defense...

Those are the only reasons why Flacco and Matt Ryan were very successful their rookie season. Cutler didn't have that.



Uh oh? Did i just hear a turtle get flushed? Somebody made a stinky!!!!!!!


Seriously Lynch, dont you know that its perfectly acceptable to compare a 10 vet to a rookie and expect the same results? I mean come on? Why throw common sense into the equation?

[BroncoJoe]

... because you're playing catch-up AND you can't get your running game going on a consistent basis, there's going to be interceptions. ...

Once again, there were only three (possibly four) games where it was technically out of reach (more than seven points difference) by the end of the third quarter.

As to the running game, that's been discussed. We (Shanahan) didn't commit to the running game. All the stats were acceptable, with the exception of attempts.

[Northman]

Once again, there were only three (possibly four) games where it was technically out of reach (more than seven points difference) by the end of the third quarter.

As to the running game, that's been discussed. We (Shanahan) didn't commit to the running game. All the stats were acceptable, with the exception of attempts.

What running game? We had no backs to work with. And even if that is the case how does that become Jay's fault? He just runs the plays.

[BroncoJoe]

What running game? We had no backs to work with. And even if that is the case how does that become Jay's fault? He just runs the plays.

I agree on the play calling isn't Jay's fault, but we were 12th in yards, 2nd in yards per attempt, and 28th in attempts.

We weren't playing "catchup" in all our losses either.

[broncohead]

so your saying cutler cant get better at all? everybody can get better, he threw 18 picks thats unacceptable.... yes his defense sucks, but thats no excuse, qb's job is to win games regardless of the personal around him..... Cutler also had a WR corps that neither plummer or griese had, forgot to leave that out of there and what about that line?

So football is no longer a team sport? Maybe he should play off., def., and special teams so he can really be blaimed for the losses. That's just an ignorant statement.

[Northman]

So football is no longer a team sport? Maybe he should play off., def., and special teams so he can really be blaimed for the losses. That's just an ignorant statement.

Its kind of interesting that the same people who say that it wasnt Jake's fault for the collapse in the AFCCG are now saying that Jay is the one who needed to win all the games on his own. :lol:

[turftoad]

I agree on the play calling isn't Jay's fault, but we were 12th in yards, 2nd in yards per attempt, and 28th in attempts.

We weren't playing "catchup" in all our losses either.

Someone posted (somewhere) what Jays record is when the broncos allowed less than 20 points per game.

I can't remember which thread it was in but the record was very good.

Does anyone know where it is?

[56crash]

Someone posted (somewhere) what Jays record is when the broncos allowed less than 20 points per game.

I can't remember which thread it was in but the record was very good.

Does anyone know where it is?

try 30 points ....:eek:

[Northman]

Someone posted (somewhere) what Jays record is when the broncos allowed less than 20 points per game.

I can't remember which thread it was in but the record was very good.

Does anyone know where it is?


I think its in the J-Cut better win thread but im not sure which page.

[turftoad]

try 30 points ....:eek:

No, I'm sure it was 20 or less.

[nevcraw]

I'm sorry, but quit making excuses.

Jake Plummer led this team to a 7-4 record in 2006. We missed the playoffs.

Jay Cutler in that season 2-5.

Are you serious? If you are serious, are you well? Any of you who blame cutler (like him or loath him for the record (W-L) are delusional.

[BroncoJoe]

Someone posted (somewhere) what Jays record is when the broncos allowed less than 20 points per game.

I can't remember which thread it was in but the record was very good.

Does anyone know where it is?

Maybe, just maybe if we didn't turn the ball over 30 fricken times, as well as committed to the running game a bit more the defense wouldn't have given up so many GD points.

[Northman]

Maybe, just maybe if we didn't turn the ball over 30 fricken times, as well as committed to the running game a bit more the defense wouldn't have given up so many GD points.

Dude, nothing was helping that defense this past year. They were just flat out bad. There's helping your defense and then there's just trying to stay in the game because the defense cant stop anybody.

[turftoad]

Maybe, just maybe if we didn't turn the ball over 30 fricken times, as well as committed to the running game a bit more the defense wouldn't have given up so many GD points.

Maybe if the defense didn't give up soooooo many points we could have commited to the run and wouldn't have had to play catch up all the time.

Now, don't get me wrong, Jay does try to force the ball sometimes when he shouldn't. But, he's still very young. He'll get better with experience.

[underrated29]

I'm sorry, but quit making excuses.

Jake Plummer led this team to a 7-4 record in 2006. We missed the playoffs.

Jay Cutler in that season 2-5.




Where is the stat MO that shows that when Jay took over the reigns the offense was scoring more points...I dont know the stat by heart but i believe it was close to:

Jake 17-19 points per game
Jay 20-23 points per game

Why did you not post that stat? It seems to me that Jay did his job, he came in and scored more points on offense than Jake did. Isnt that all that can be asked of Jay- to outproduce your predicesor?


PS- For the record, for everyone. I was a jake fan, and a jake supporter, but facts are facts- Jay has a lot more of "it" than jake does.

[BroncoJoe]

Maybe if the defense didn't give up soooooo many points we could have commited to the run and wouldn't have had to play catch up all the time.

Now, don't get me wrong, Jay does try to force the ball sometimes when he shouldn't. But, he's still very young. He'll get better with experience.

Does no one ever read posts?

Of our eight losses, only three were basically done by the end of the third. We WERE NOT PLAYING CATCHUP ALL THE TIME!

Also, has anyone taken the time to see how our losses and the 20+ points scored against us correlate with our offensive turnovers?

My guess is no one has.

[turftoad]

Does no one ever read posts?

Of our eight losses, only three were basically done by the end of the third. We WERE NOT PLAYING CATCHUP ALL THE TIME!

Also, has anyone taken the time to see how our losses and the 20+ points scored against us correlate with our offensive turnovers?

My guess is no one has.

Maybe we weren't playing cacth up all the time but we sure were playing keep up.

[BroncoJoe]

Maybe we weren't playing cacth up all the time but we sure were playing keep up.

Yet, another excuse.

Dude, our "vaunted" offense turned the ball over 30 times! Not all on Cutler, but he threw 18 ints and fumbled five times. Not all fumbles were lost, but we lost a down and yards, or the ball.

Our "stellar #2 ranked offense" was exactly that. Rank.

[Northman]

Does no one ever read posts?

Of our eight losses, only three were basically done by the end of the third. We WERE NOT PLAYING CATCHUP ALL THE TIME!

Also, has anyone taken the time to see how our losses and the 20+ points scored against us correlate with our offensive turnovers?

My guess is no one has.

You dont always have to play catchup to have a bad defense. Sorry, if that ruins your excuse as too why we lost those games but we couldnt stop anybody regardless. Honestly, had we tried to be more conservative on the ground i think we would of gone winless. The running game just was not as effective as it had been in the past. Hillis had some success because no one knew what he could do. That will change this year. Tatum had some success vs SD because SD was busy driving on us at will. While Shanahan's play calling had become predictable and stagnant it wasnt helped by the lack of talent at key positions both on offense and defense. Shanahan probably got enamored by watching Manning pick us apart and tried to go that route to see what we could do. We were successful in some games and others it was our downfall. Turnovers are going to happen with any and every QB, WR, RB, etc. But if you dont have a defense that can at least FORCE some turnovers or even stop a 3rd down run and hold them to a FG then what?

[turftoad]

Yet, another excuse.

Dude, our "vaunted" offense turned the ball over 30 times! Not all on Cutler, but he threw 18 ints and fumbled five times. Not all fumbles were lost, but we lost a down and yards, or the ball.

Our "stellar #2 ranked offense" was exactly that. Rank.

If you don't want Cutler back, be careful what you wish for.

I know we moved the ball. I also know we failed to score amny needed points.

Red zone efficiency is where we failed. I do not put that all on Cutler.
You also have ot remember, no one, no team feared or running game. They only had to worry about defending the pass. That said, Jay did an admirable job.
It's all about mixing it up. We weren't able to do that.

[BroncoJoe]

You dont always have to play catchup to have a bad defense. Sorry, if that ruins your excuse as too why we lost those games but we couldnt stop anybody regardless. Honestly, had we tried to be more conservative on the ground i think we would of gone winless. The running game just was not as effective as it had been in the past. Hillis had some success because no one knew what he could do. That will change this year. Tatum had some success vs SD because SD was busy driving on us at will. While Shanahan's play calling had become predictable and stagnant it wasnt helped by the lack of talent at key positions both on offense and defense. Shanahan probably got enamored by watching Manning pick us apart and tried to go that route to see what we could do. We were successful in some games and others it was our downfall. Turnovers are going to happen with any and every QB, WR, RB, etc. But if you dont have a defense that can at least FORCE some turnovers or even stop a 3rd down run and hold them to a FG then what?

Just to be clear, I am NOT giving the defense a break. They did stink. BUT, to say last year's disaster is solely on their shoulders is wrong. Our offense was ranked 16th in scoring, while being #2 in yards. Does that huge gap even make sense? Tied for 4th (maybe 5th, I can't remember) in turnovers as well.

I am not a Cutler hater, but I think he's a fricken idiot for how he's responded to this situation.

[BroncoJoe]

If you don't want Cutler back, be careful what you wish for.

I know we moved the ball. I also know we failed to score amny needed points.

Red zone efficiency is where we failed. I do not put that all on Cutler.
You also have ot remember, no one, no team feared or running game. They only had to worry about defending the pass. That said, Jay did an admirable job.
It's all about mixing it up. We weren't able to do that.

12th in rushing yards, Turf. No one feared it because they knew (with our 28th ranked attempts) that we wouldn't.

I primarily blame Shanahan, not Cutler. But, Cutler did throw 18 interceptions. Had Bret Favre retired like he should have, Cutler would have led the NFL.

[underrated29]

Does no one ever read posts?

Of our eight losses, only three were basically done by the end of the third. We WERE NOT PLAYING CATCHUP ALL THE TIME!

Also, has anyone taken the time to see how our losses and the 20+ points scored against us correlate with our offensive turnovers?

My guess is no one has.




And of the turnovers how many that were scored upon were a direct cause of Jay? And of those turnovers how many were Stupid passes etc, vs a freak play or a great defensive play, or a tipped ball from the WR?


Against Jax, for example (they just showed the reply on tv) Jay had and INT that worked better than a punt. It was 3rd and forever, the play broke down, jay scrambled and threw a bomb for brandon. It got intercepted by the jags at the 8 yard line. We couldnt have punted better than that. But that counts as a INT for Jay. No points came off that.

Against KC jay was trying to scramble out of a broken pocket. The defenseman made a great play and knocked the ball out of Jays hand. It would have been a sack had he not lost the ball. In any event, jay couldnt nab the ball back and there is another turnover on Jay. No points came from it.

The next series in that kc game we did an end around to brandon who also fumbled the ball- that was returned to the 1 yard line. 7 pts came from that.

The bucs? jets? game brandon ran the wrong route, he was supposed to keep going inside, he stopped and because of that the ball went right to the defender. INT for Jay, not his fault the WR ran the wrong route...

Out of Jays 17? turnovers i just showed where 3 where not a result of him being a gun slinger or bonehead, that they did not result in points, and in one case worked out better than him throwing it away and us punting.

That imo puts him at 14 turnovers then that we need to look at to see if they were his fault or if something like i said above happened.

[CoachChaz]

12th in rushing yards, Turf. No one feared it because they knew (with our 28th ranked attempts) that we wouldn't.

I primarily blame Shanahan, not Cutler. But, Cutler did throw 18 interceptions. Had Bret Favre retired like he should have, Cutler would have led the NFL.

But Joe...I thought the defense threw those interceptions.

[BroncoJoe]

And of the turnovers how many that were scored upon were a direct cause of Jay? And of those turnovers how many were Stupid passes etc, vs a freak play or a great defensive play, or a tipped ball from the WR?


Against Jax, for example (they just showed the reply on tv) Jay had and INT that worked better than a punt. It was 3rd and forever, the play broke down, jay scrambled and threw a bomb for brandon. It got intercepted by the jags at the 8 yard line. We couldnt have punted better than that. But that counts as a INT for Jay. No points came off that.

Against KC jay was trying to scramble out of a broken pocket. The defenseman made a great play and knocked the ball out of Jays hand. It would have been a sack had he not lost the ball. In any event, jay couldnt nab the ball back and there is another turnover on Jay. No points came from it.

The next series in that kc game we did an end around to brandon who also fumbled the ball- that was returned to the 1 yard line. 7 pts came from that.

The bucs? jets? game brandon ran the wrong route, he was supposed to keep going inside, he stopped and because of that the ball went right to the defender. INT for Jay, not his fault the WR ran the wrong route...

Out of Jays 17? turnovers i just showed where 3 where not a result of him being a gun slinger or bonehead, that they did not result in points, and in one case worked out better than him throwing it away and us punting.

That imo puts him at 14 turnovers then that we need to look at to see if they were his fault or if something like i said above happened.

Yeah. Having our offensive players on the field to handle a "punt" is a great idea.

:tsk:

Your "opinion" of him having only 14 turnovers is nothing more than a ridiculous statement, and yet another excuse. How about he complete those passes for a first fricken down?

[CoachChaz]

Yeah. Having our offensive players on the field to handle a "punt" is a great idea.

:tsk:

Your "opinion" of him having only 14 turnovers is nothing more than a ridiculous statement, and yet another excuse. How about he complete those passes for a first fricken down?

He would have, but Marshall (that guy that should be paid like a top 5 receiver) dropped too many. Again...not Jay's fault.

[Northman]

Just to be clear, I am NOT giving the defense a break. They did stink. BUT, to say last year's disaster is solely on their shoulders is wrong. Our offense was ranked 16th in scoring, while being #2 in yards. Does that huge gap even make sense? Tied for 4th (maybe 5th, I can't remember) in turnovers as well.

I am not a Cutler hater, but I think he's a fricken idiot for how he's responded to this situation.

Couldnt agree more. And i also think that Jay had some serious downfalls with his turnovers. He choked in one of the biggest games of his life last year against Buffalo.

[underrated29]

Yeah. Having our offensive players on the field to handle a "punt" is a great idea.

:tsk:

Your "opinion" of him having only 14 turnovers is nothing more than a ridiculous statement, and yet another excuse. How about he complete those passes for a first fricken down?


He would have, but Marshall (that guy that should be paid like a top 5 receiver) dropped too many. Again...not Jay's fault.



more or less chaz. Its hard to complete a pass if your wr stops running his route or like chaz said drops the ball.

[CoachChaz]

Couldnt agree more. And i also think that Jay had some serious downfalls with his turnovers. He choked in one of the biggest games of his life last year against Buffalo.

No way man. That was Shanny's fault for not running more. jay didnt do anything wrong...he never does.

[underrated29]

Couldnt agree more. And i also think that Jay had some serious downfalls with his turnovers. He choked in one of the biggest games of his life last year against Buffalo.




Dont even bring that game up man...


I can still taste the shit that buffalo rammed down our throats. All we had to do.....ah still mad about that game.

[CoachChaz]

more or less chaz. Its hard to complete a pass if your wr stops running his route or like chaz said drops the ball.

it was more sarcasm than anything. Marshall is the GOAT...until he creates an excuse for Cutler...then Cutler is the GOAT and Marshall is to blame.

Just more excuses. No one can admit that Jay has done nothing more than show signs of immense talent mixed in with alot of immaturity...nothing else.

[BroncoJoe]

Yeah. Having our offensive players on the field to handle a "punt" is a great idea.

:tsk:

Your "opinion" of him having only 14 turnovers is nothing more than a ridiculous statement, and yet another excuse. How about he complete those passes for a first fricken down?

One more thought - how about he check down to an OPEN receiver who might get the first down, or at least give our punter (who had very good stats) a chance to pin them deeper in their own territory.

Sorry, but the reasoning quoted in my quote is just stupid.

[BroncoJoe]

Dont even bring that game up man...


I can still taste the shit that buffalo rammed down our throats. All we had to do.....ah still mad about that game.

All we had to do....

IS NOT THROW A FRICKEN INTERCEPTION WITH ~5 MINUTES LEFT IN THE REDZONE!

[underrated29]

One more thought - how about he check down to an OPEN receiver who might get the first down, or at least give our punter (who had very good stats) a chance to pin them deeper in their own territory.

Sorry, but the reasoning quoted in my quote is just stupid.



Well i am not sure what you are intending here, but pinning a team inside the 10 is extremely good, they started at the 8. Remember with a punt, it can get blocked, go out of the endzone for a touchback, and our achilles heal get returned for a big gain.. That INT worked out better...

Of course that is not always the case, and infact is never the case, it was just one of those rare good misses, but it worked in our favor.


I agree 100% about the check down though. Countless times we see the man open down the seam for a 7-10 gain or the rb split wide in the flats with no one around and jay goes long instead. Pisses me off. I say move the chains first, then go deep, but keep them chains moving.

[turftoad]

12th in rushing yards, Turf. No one feared it because they knew (with our 28th ranked attempts) that we wouldn't.

I primarily blame Shanahan, not Cutler. But, Cutler did throw 18 interceptions. Had Bret Favre retired like he should have, Cutler would have led the NFL.

12th in rushing yards because opposing defenses NEVER had to worry about putting 8 men in the box.

[BroncoJoe]

I guess my bottom line is, I don't really understand the complete and total adoration of Cutler at this point. He's not good in public, or with the public, rarely grants interviews with the local press (even before this mess), and when he did had a total "who cares" attitude.

The guy has all the physical skills of an Elway, but his head and personality is on a different planet.

[CoachChaz]

I'll agree with the Pro-Cutler's that the kid has a ton of talent and I'd like to see it one day...but no one can really argue with the fact that he's not exactly "leader" material. At least he hasnt done anything to show it yet.

[underrated29]

I guess my bottom line is, I don't really understand the complete and total adoration of Cutler at this point. He's not good in public, or with the public, rarely grants interviews with the local press (even before this mess), and when he did had a total "who cares" attitude.

The guy has all the physical skills of an Elway, but his head and personality is on a different planet.



Dont think anyone will disagree with you there.

[turftoad]

I guess my bottom line is, I don't really understand the complete and total adoration of Cutler at this point. He's not good in public, or with the public, rarely grants interviews with the local press (even before this mess), and when he did had a total "who cares" attitude.

The guy has all the physical skills of an Elway, but his head and personality is on a different planet.

Agreed. However, he's still a kid. He's only 25yrs old. I'm pretty sure he'll mature.

I've got a 24 yr old daughter. She's a smart kid but doesn't always make the right decisions either. I know I didn't and I'm sure none of you did either.

[tubby]

All we had to do....

IS NOT THROW A FRICKEN INTERCEPTION WITH ~5 MINUTES LEFT IN THE REDZONE!

The sun was in his eyes.

[turftoad]

I'll agree with the Pro-Cutler's that the kid has a ton of talent and I'd like to see it one day...but no one can really argue with the fact that he's not exactly "leader" material. At least he hasnt done anything to show it yet.

Sorry to post this again, I had posted it in another thread.


No one is perfect. That said, Cutler, in the past, has shown to be a very good teammate and leader.

Last offseason, Cutler took his receivers down to atlanta to train even harder.

After this 8-8 season, Cutler immediately phoned Shanahan to talk about what he can do to improve upon next year.

Jay took his whole OLine to Costa Rica for fishing and fun.

After yelling at Royal for dropping a ball vs the last game against SD, Jay found royal on the sideline and told him he had faith in royal, needed royal and would be looking to throw to royal. Eddie called Jay an amazing leader.

[CoachChaz]

Sorry to post this again, I had posted it in another thread.

I saw that, but is a vacation and a workout the definition of leadership?

[turftoad]

I saw that, but is a vacation and a workout the definition of leadership?

Partly, esspecially if he pays for it. :D

[CoachChaz]

Partly, esspecially if he pays for it. :D

Seriously? To me that's more of a thank you. Did Dan Marino buying Isotoner gloves for his linemen make him a leader? No, rallying the troops, building their trust in him and taking them to accomplishments did.

Now, when Jay spends time on and off the field building confidence with his teammates (not just the ones that are his buddies) and gets them to all buy into him and they rally around him and do positive things...I'll buy it.

people look at Eddie Royal and say he thinks Jay is a great leader. Not much coming from a 23 year old, but look deeper. Eddie says, "Jay is my FRIEND, but I'll let management take care of that".

Nowhere does anyone say, "Jay is the heart and soul of this team, I'd do anything on the field for him because we all tick to his heartbeat". no one is standing up and defending him or being adamant about his return. Why?

[turftoad]

Seriously? To me that's more of a thank you. Did Dan Marino buying Isotoner gloves for his linemen make him a leader? No, rallying the troops, building their trust in him and taking them to accomplishments did.

Now, when Jay spends time on and off the field building confidence with his teammates (not just the ones that are his buddies) and gets them to all buy into him and they rally around him and do positive things...I'll buy it.

people look at Eddie Royal and say he thinks Jay is a great leader. Not much coming from a 23 year old, but look deeper. Eddie says, "Jay is my FRIEND, but I'll let management take care of that".

Nowhere does anyone say, "Jay is the heart and soul of this team, I'd do anything on the field for him because we all tick to his heartbeat". no one is standing up and defending him or being adamant about his return. Why?


Agreed. However, he's still a kid. He's only 25yrs old. I'm pretty sure he'll mature.

I've got a 24 yr old daughter. She's a smart kid but doesn't always make the right decisions either. I know I didn't and I'm sure none of you did either.

:listen:

[Mike]

I guess my bottom line is, I don't really understand the complete and total adoration of Cutler at this point. He's not good in public, or with the public, rarely grants interviews with the local press (even before this mess), and when he did had a total "who cares" attitude.

The guy has all the physical skills of an Elway, but his head and personality is on a different planet.

The same is true on the flip side though. I don't really understand the villification of him at this point. He has played pretty well for a young QB on a team with poor running game and a defense that gives it up easier than Paris Hilton. And in large part, I don't think that the offensive coordinator has done an efficient job with playcalling either.

Some of the people here make Cutler sound like a second rate scrub. I don't think he has handled this situation well and wish someone would give him a swift kick, but by no means do I think that Denver would be a better team without him. It is rediculous to think that Denver could find a better QB than Cutler and that they could get better play from some journeyman QB like some around here suggest.

I won't make up excuses for him and I certainly don't adore him. He makes a lot of dumb decisions. He forces a ton of passes and focuses too hard on 1 WR. He also wants to go for the big play all the time. These issues can be addressed though and so I am willing to give him time to grow up. As to the press, to be honest, I don't care how he handles the press (though I wish he'd just learn to keep quiet). I care more about handling pressure and the issues above on the field more than if he gives good interviews or has a positive attitude doing it. The press are dumb asses so I could really care less about how he interviews with them.

[CoachChaz]

...and I think I can say MOST of us really want this cleared up and to have Jay be our QB for the next 10+ years. However, if he continues to stay the path...we have no choice but to move on

[broncogirl]

Yes, Cutler is a whiner. :salute:

Come on draft day! I can't wait till we have something else to talk about.

[Lonestar]

Jay winner not yet and considering his actions over that past couple of years.. I have concerns that he will be a consistent winner..

there is NO doubt he has the tools to get the job done..he has a great arm is mobile can make all the throws.. might be a good leader, seems to be smart..

But then there is the forcing of passes, turnovers in the red zone.. and now the latest chapter of playing the petulant little girl..

Will he ever mature into a strong leader that is a TEAM players or will he be a me guy like the latest chapter seems to be taking over..

What ever happens I hope that Xman, Josh and Pat do not give into his agent and give him a new contract to get him back in the fold in Dove Valley..

Like dealing with five year olds one does not give into them, they give them a smack on the ass and set in the corner till they behave..

regardless of what happens with jay, this team will not be a huge winner this coming season due to the almost total change over in personnel on D and new schemes on both sides of the LOS..

we have not even touched on ST's, by default they should be better just because personnel and coaching will be better but not enough to get us to the super bowl like many on here pine for...

[Northman]

Yes, Cutler is a whiner. :salute:

Come on draft day! I can't wait till we have something else to talk about.

yummy.

[bullis26]

Where is the stat MO that shows that when Jay took over the reigns the offense was scoring more points...I dont know the stat by heart but i believe it was close to:

Jake 17-19 points per game
Jay 20-23 points per game

Why did you not post that stat? It seems to me that Jay did his job, he came in and scored more points on offense than Jake did. Isnt that all that can be asked of Jay- to outproduce your predicesor?


PS- For the record, for everyone. I was a jake fan, and a jake supporter, but facts are facts- Jay has a lot more of "it" than jake does.

so what your saying is youd rather score 40 points a game and lose than score 10 and win? Points dont matter as long as you win..... please explain yourself about that comment because i dont get that at all..... Qb's manage the game, and its there job to win the game, jay didnt do his job of winning the game..... Jay also threw how many INTS? How many fumbles he have? you left those two stats out right there

[bullis26]

He was a rookie with an undrafted rookie Runningback as his only thread, and a deteriorating defense who's play drastically fell off a cliff after that Thanksgiving game in Kansas City.

Don't even bring up Cutler's rookie year.

He didnt have Michael Turner or an Atlanta Falcons defense...

or the #1 Rushing offense in the league (Baltimore) and Ray Lewis on defense...

Those are the only reasons why Flacco and Matt Ryan were very successful their rookie season. Cutler didn't have that.

excuses

[bullis26]

So football is no longer a team sport? Maybe he should play off., def., and special teams so he can really be blaimed for the losses. That's just an ignorant statement.

ummm.... the QB's job is to win games, thats how QB's are measured.... How many people do you hear say dan marino was better than Joe Montana? Not many because its the QB's job to win you the game... yes football is a team sport, but if you have a horrible QB its hard to win, you could have bad WR's and win, a bad LT and win, etc.(you also could have a bad qb and win, but its much harder to do that)..... QB is the most important player on the field they touch the ball about every play(unless a trick play, then not always)

Look at the past few superbowls, Roethlisberger, Manning, Manning, Brady, Warner.... only one superbowl team of the past 3 years had a bad QB(grossman)and the bears lost that game because of him
but those teams all had weak spots, and that just helps prove my point

[getlynched47]

Maybe if the defense didn't give up soooooo many points we could have commited to the run and wouldn't have had to play catch up all the time.

Now, don't get me wrong, Jay does try to force the ball sometimes when he shouldn't. But, he's still very young. He'll get better with experience.

exactly. Jay will be better with experience AND a defense that can actually get a stop once in a while...

[omac]

Jay winner not yet and considering his actions over that past couple of years.. I have concerns that he will be a consistent winner..

there is NO doubt he has the tools to get the job done..he has a great arm is mobile can make all the throws.. might be a good leader, seems to be smart..

But then there is the forcing of passes, turnovers in the red zone.. and now the latest chapter of playing the petulant little girl..

Will he ever mature into a strong leader that is a TEAM players or will he be a me guy like the latest chapter seems to be taking over..

What ever happens I hope that Xman, Josh and Pat do not give into his agent and give him a new contract to get him back in the fold in Dove Valley..

Like dealing with five year olds one does not give into them, they give them a smack on the ass and set in the corner till they behave..

regardless of what happens with jay, this team will not be a huge winner this coming season due to the almost total change over in personnel on D and new schemes on both sides of the LOS..

we have not even touched on ST's, by default they should be better just because personnel and coaching will be better but not enough to get us to the super bowl like many on here pine for...

Jrwiz, you can say the same things about Plummer, and I know you think of him as a winner. Talk about terrible win-loss record throughout his first 6 seasons in the league; talk about a turnover machine; talk about forcing throws, even as late as his 10th year in the league. And talk about character, he flipped off a fan, road raged on someone, and shouted to a writer that Shanny could kiss his ass. That's all from a 10 year veteran.

Give Cutler a chance. Though he's thrown a lot of INTs, he's also thrown a lot of TDs and for a lot of yards. He's had a lot of game-winning comebacks. His 3rd down ratio is supposed to be among the top in the league, as well as his 4th quarter scoring. Several times, he has to do that with poor field position.

He's never been the type who doesn't work hard nor doesn't obey his coaches; what he's doing now, though, has to do with what he thinks is best for his career, as advised by his agent. They're looking for a trade, and they're playing to win ... somewhat. He still says he'll attend the mandatories, so he's not holding out ... yet.

[getlynched47]

It really doesn't matter anymore...

The Broncos organization has given up on trying to fix this relationship with Cutler. That was our only hope to keep Cutler.

He's a goner now :(

[hotcarl]

not yet


close thread

tia
carl
:welcome:

[Lonestar]

Jrwiz, you can say the same things about Plummer, and I know you think of him as a winner. Talk about terrible win-loss record throughout his first 6 seasons in the league; talk about a turnover machine; talk about forcing throws, even as late as his 10th year in the league. And talk about character, he flipped off a fan, road raged on someone, and shouted to a writer that Shanny could kiss his ass. That's all from a 10 year veteran.

Give Cutler a chance. Though he's thrown a lot of INTs, he's also thrown a lot of TDs and for a lot of yards. He's had a lot of game-winning comebacks. His 3rd down ratio is supposed to be among the top in the league, as well as his 4th quarter scoring. Several times, he has to do that with poor field position.

He's never been the type who doesn't work hard nor doesn't obey his coaches; what he's doing now, though, has to do with what he thinks is best for his career, as advised by his agent. They're looking for a trade, and they're playing to win ... somewhat. He still says he'll attend the mandatories, so he's not holding out ... yet.

hey at firsts I was not a big Jake fan.. saw one of his last games in PHX against Den It think it was and we was player never gave up.. SO that kinda endeared me to him.. and when he came here I was still on the I believe mikey bandwagon..

Was Jake a good fit for DEN no But he was a heel of f a lot better that Cordell would have been..

Now we really know that jay had no intention to contact the Broncos and try..

so off he goes to the highest bidder.. IMO good riddance.. he was a punk that may turn into the next Jeff George and his actions lately lean more to that theory than being the next John Elway..

I believe when Jay was drafted I said he would rue the day he came to DEN.. Might have been right on that call afterall..

[omac]

hey at firsts I was not a big Jake fan.. saw one of his last games in PHX against Den It think it was and we was player never gave up.. SO that kinda endeared me to him.. and when he came here I was still on the I believe mikey bandwagon..

Was Jake a good fit for DEN no But he was a heel of f a lot better that Cordell would have been..

Now we really know that jay had no intention to contact the Broncos and try..

so off he goes to the highest bidder.. IMO good riddance.. he was a punk that may turn into the next Jeff George and his actions lately lean more to that theory than being the next John Elway..

I believe when Jay was drafted I said he would rue the day he came to DEN.. Might have been right on that call afterall..

Actually, I think Jake was a good fit for Denver's offense that Shanahan built to his strengths; the rushing offense, the bootlegs, throwing on the run. I'm not a Plummer fan, but I have to admit it was effective. I didn't think it was enough for a superbowl, but still effective.

We have differing opinions of Jay; I don't think he's a punk. He works hard, studies hard, listens to his coaches, treats his friends well, set up a diabetes foundation for kids; I just think he wears his emotions on his sleeve too much for his own good. He could use a lot of coaching there, about how to conduct himself in the media, how to say the right things, the way high profile players from big colleges are taught to do so.

Someone posted an article here recently, dated 1990 I think, showing that Elway was at that time perceived as a whiner, and he said he was gonna change his ways.

Where we differ in opinions is this; if (when?) the Broncos let Jay go, I believe it's this organization that will rue the day that happened.