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MOtorboat
03-29-2009, 12:55 AM
17-20.

One coach fired.

Better start winning some games.

sneakers
03-29-2009, 01:11 AM
Or we will bring Jake Plummer back!!!!!!!!!!

Magnificent Seven
03-29-2009, 01:12 AM
Blame it on 3 different defensive coordinators.

MOtorboat
03-29-2009, 01:12 AM
Or we will bring Jake Plummer back!!!!!!!!!!

Or get a quarterback who will quit turning the ball over...:noidea:

MOtorboat
03-29-2009, 01:13 AM
Blame it on 3 different defensive coordinators.

Nah...I'm done making excuses for him. Quarterbacks are judged on wins and losses. Paid on wins and losses. Sucks to be them.

sneakers
03-29-2009, 01:16 AM
Blame it on 3 different defensive coordinators.

The defensive cordinators didn't throw interceptions did they :D

Magnificent Seven
03-29-2009, 01:16 AM
It was not all about Cutler. It was all about defense and defensive coordinators.

MOtorboat
03-29-2009, 01:18 AM
It was not all about Cutler. It was all about defense and defensive coordinators.


The defensive cordinators didn't throw interceptions did they :D

No they didn't. And they didn't pout and cry either.

Time to win some games. Enough with the excuses.

Magnificent Seven
03-29-2009, 01:20 AM
No they didn't. And they didn't pout and cry either.

Time to win some games. Enough with the excuses.

Blame it on Marshall, too. He have dropped many balls! :D

sneakers
03-29-2009, 01:24 AM
Blame it on Marshall, too. He have dropped many balls! :D

Or we could blame the barber for not cutting Jay's hair short enough so as not to block his vision.

Magnificent Seven
03-29-2009, 01:26 AM
Or we could blame the barber for not cutting Jay's hair short enough so as not to block his vision.

lol

Shazam!
03-29-2009, 01:28 AM
I just pray all the Cassel bashers over the last month or so don't have their soles put in their mouths...

LoyalSoldier
03-29-2009, 01:38 AM
No they didn't. And they didn't pout and cry either.

Time to win some games. Enough with the excuses.



Funny Jake threw more ints in 2004 and we still made the playoffs that year. Wonder what could have possibly been different?

I seriously get tired of this BS. We have given you every stat in the entire book. Anywhere from win loss totals of QBs who had a defense that gave up 30+ points to comparisons to teams under Plummer and yet people keep blaming Jay for it. Hell even the idiot Jay Marriotti has said the problems we had weren't Jay's fault.

Anyone who knows crap about football knows if your defense gives up that many points you are going to lose a lot of games no matter how good your offense is. If Jay lost with an amazing defense then I would be happy to blame it on him, but the fact of the matter is he has had defenses that rank up there with the absolute worst defenses in Broncos history.

MOtorboat
03-29-2009, 01:42 AM
Funny Jake threw more in 2004 and we still made the playoffs that year. Wonder what could have possibly been different?

I seriously get tired of this BS. We have given you every stat in the entire book. Anywhere from win loss totals of QBs who had a defense that gave up 30+ points to comparisons to teams under Plummer and yet people keep blaming Jay for it.

Anyone who knows crap about football knows if your defense gives up that many points you are going to lose a lot of games no matter how good your offense is.

See, this is where it gets funny...

The excuses get so thick about how the defense should be better, or the running game sucked, or the field position battle was lost...

Yet, Jay Cutler was a Pro Bowl quarterback. So...is it really that important that Jay Cutler is the quarterback for this team?

Because, from reading all the excuses, if the running game is solid, the defense is top notch and we have a solid return man, it doesn't really matter who we have at quarterback...

Wait...no...I didn't just...turn this argument upside down...did I?

Denver was 8-8. Therefore Jay Cutler was 8-8. Quarterbacks are judged on wins and losses.

Deal with it.

sneakers
03-29-2009, 01:44 AM
I just pray all the Cassel bashers over the last month or so don't have their soles put in their mouths...

Matt Cassel = Scott Mitchell.

MOtorboat
03-29-2009, 01:45 AM
Matt Cassel = Scott Mitchell.

And Jay Cutler might = Jeff George if he isn't careful...

EMB6903
03-29-2009, 01:45 AM
Nah...I'm done making excuses for him. Quarterbacks are judged on wins and losses. Paid on wins and losses. Sucks to be them.

by those who dont understand it takes more then 1 person to win a game

I guess you expected more from a 3rd year Quarterback

But I realized that Denver statisically had the 2nd worst defense of ALLTIME

I judge quarterbacks on production, and there isnt 10 qb's in this league that are more productive then Jay Cutler.

sneakers
03-29-2009, 01:48 AM
And Jay Cutler might = Jeff George if he isn't careful...

Hahha! True.

Did you hear Jeff George still wants to play....he is 41.

Kinda like Steve Deberg backing up Chandler in Super Bowl XXXIII

EMB6903
03-29-2009, 01:49 AM
Jay Cutler is 10x better than George ever was... and they are totally different Quarterbacks

everybody compares the 2 just because arm strength for some reason.

MOtorboat
03-29-2009, 01:50 AM
by those who dont understand it takes more then 1 person to win a game

I guess you expected more from a 3rd year Quarterback

But I realized that Denver statisically had the 2nd worst defense of ALLTIME

I just quarterbacks on production, and there isnt 10 qb's in this league that are more productive then Jay Cutler.

More than one person...interesting...read my last post.

Actually, they are 15 quarterbacks more productive than Jay Cutler. Because the Broncos were 16th in scoring.

Ben Roethlisberger has won two Super Bowls in four years, and Eli Manning has won one in four years. Jay Cutler hasn't even played in a playoff game.

Quarterbacks are judged on wins and losses, and paid on wins and losses. Again, it sucks to be them.

I'm done with the excuses.

MOtorboat
03-29-2009, 01:50 AM
Jay Cutler is 10x better than George ever was... and they are totally different Quarterbacks

everybody compares the 2 just because arm strength for some reason.

I said "might."

Lonestar
03-29-2009, 01:52 AM
Hahha! True.

Did you hear Jeff George still wants to play....he is 41.

Kinda like Steve Deberg backing up Chandler in Super Bowl XXXIII

well he does not have a lot of miles on him..

sneakers
03-29-2009, 01:54 AM
Jay Cutler is 10x better than George ever was... and they are totally different Quarterbacks

everybody compares the 2 just because arm strength for some reason.

What do you mean by "better"? (arm strength, athleticism, leadership, ninja skills?)

because many people hjave said that George was the perfect quarterback physically.

MOtorboat
03-29-2009, 01:55 AM
What do you mean by "better"? (arm strength, athleticism, leadership, ninja skills?)

Better = Threw for more yards.

Lonestar
03-29-2009, 01:56 AM
Jay Cutler is 10x better than George ever was... and they are totally different Quarterbacks

everybody compares the 2 just because arm strength for some reason.

actually because they are quite similar..


both have strong arms..

both got into trouble because they thought he could force the ball into double and triple coverage..

they overlooked the open receivers wanting to go deep all the time..

did not take direct well from coaches (well this is a maybe for jay) but looking pretty good right now....

got at least one coach fired..

lacked maturity

sneakers
03-29-2009, 01:56 AM
well he does not have a lot of miles on him..

I think he has played for 22 different NFL franchises too...

LoyalSoldier
03-29-2009, 01:57 AM
See, this is where it gets funny...

The excuses get so thick about how the defense should be better, or the running game sucked, or the field position battle was lost...

See the funny thing is you just brush legitimate issues off as excuses. How can the 29th ranked defense not be a factor in how many games we won?! Oh sure it doesn't matter that Jay had to score 53 points to even have a shot at winning against the Chargers. Yeah come back after you learn the game of football. :tsk:

It is like saying a car accident is my fault when someone in the back seat grabbed my arms.


Because, from reading all the excuses, if the running game is solid, the defense is top notch and we have a solid return man, it doesn't really matter who we have at quarterback...

See the Broncos of 2005 and Bears of 2006.


Wait...no...I didn't just...turn this argument upside down...did I?

I just love it when people proclaim their argument flawless before they even give their opponents a chance to reply. I just shows one's inexperience and immaturity.


Denver was 8-8. Therefore Jay Cutler was 8-8. Quarterbacks are judged on wins and losses.

Deal with it.

And again how many of those eight losses did the defense just flat out fail?

Lonestar
03-29-2009, 01:58 AM
I think he has played for 22 different NFL franchises too...


not quite but alot..:laugh::laugh:

sneakers
03-29-2009, 02:00 AM
Better = Threw for more yards.

In that case Jay Cutler (heck, Brian Griese) is a better quarterback than John Elway.

EMB6903
03-29-2009, 02:02 AM
More than one person...interesting...read my last post.

Actually, they are 15 quarterbacks more productive than Jay Cutler. Because the Broncos were 16th in scoring.

Ben Roethlisberger has won two Super Bowls in four years, and Eli Manning has won one in four years. Jay Cutler hasn't even played in a playoff game.

Quarterbacks are judged on wins and losses, and paid on wins and losses. Again, it sucks to be them.

I'm done with the excuses.

So by your logic Jake Delhomme, Aaron Rodgers, Joe Flacco, Brett Favre, Kyle Orton, Kerry Collins, Gus Frerotte, and Eli Manning were all more productive because their teams were better scoring offenses... LMAO!

I think Eli Manning has an amazing running game and a defense... Eli Manning is an over-rated quarterback who is a great game manager at best.... Whenever hes asked to throw the ball 27+ times a game hes a turnover machine.... Eli had years with 20 ints, 18 ints, and 17 ints... before this year he never had a qb rating over 80 along with a qb % above 60, give Cutler an amazing defense that actually knows how to get off the field on 3rd down and a running game like that and the Denver would be just as dominant as the Giants if not more.

Shazam!
03-29-2009, 02:03 AM
What do you mean by "better"? (arm strength, athleticism, leadership, ninja skills?)

My ninja skills are better than yours.



because many people hjave said that George was the perfect quarterback physically.

The 'experts' and 'analysts' said that about Jake Plummer too.

MOtorboat
03-29-2009, 02:03 AM
See the funny thing is you just brush legitimate issues off as excuses. How can the 29th ranked defense not be a factor in how many games we won?! Oh sure it doesn't matter that Jay had to score 53 points to even have a shot at winning against the Chargers. Yeah come back after you learn the game of football. :tsk:

It is like saying a car accident is my fault when someone in the back seat grabbed my arms.



See the Broncos of 2005 and Bears of 2006.



I just love it when people proclaim their argument flawless before they even give their opponents a chance to reply. I just shows one's inexperience and immaturity.



And again how many of those eight losses did the defense just flat out fail?

No...like I said...you're right.

Jay Cutler is a football god. If we fix everything wrong NOT associated with Jay Cutler, then we will win the Super Bowl.

:rolleyes:

See, you're not focusing on that. You're only making excuses.

Actually, come to think about it, maybe there is. Denver was 16th in points. Jay Cutler is responsible for scoring points. That's his sole job. Score points. Maybe he should have scored more points? :noidea:

sneakers
03-29-2009, 02:04 AM
My ninja skills are better than yours.




The 'experts' and 'analysts' said that about Jake Plummer too.

That's just because of my clacky knee, that pops everyonce in a while.

Shazam!
03-29-2009, 02:05 AM
That's why I heard you AFTER I stepped on those damned caltrops.

sneakers
03-29-2009, 02:06 AM
So by your logic Jake Delhomme, Aaron Rodgers, Joe Flacco, Brett Favre, Kyle Orton, Kerry Collins, Gus Frerotte, and Eli Manning were all more productive because their teams were better scoring offenses... LMAO!

I think Eli Manning has an amazing running game and a defense... Eli Manning is an over-rated quarterback who is a great game manager at best.... Whenever hes asked to throw the ball 27+ times a game hes a turnover machine.... Eli had years with 20 ints, 18 ints, and 17 ints... before this year he never had a qb rating over 80 along with a qb % above 60, give Cutler an amazing defense that actually knows how to get off the field on 3rd down and a running game like that and the Giants would be better.

I take offense to you making fun of Gus Frerotte (it is impressive that you can spell his last name though)....:tsk:

Don't you remember "In Gus We Trust"?

EMB6903
03-29-2009, 02:06 AM
actually because they are quite similar..


both have strong arms..

both got into trouble because they thought he could force the ball into double and triple coverage..

they overlooked the open receivers wanting to go deep all the time..

did not take direct well from coaches (well this is a maybe for jay) but looking pretty good right now....

got at least one coach fired..

lacked maturity


So then you compare Cutler to Elway too, right?

(Im not comparing the 2)

MOtorboat
03-29-2009, 02:07 AM
Jeff George wasnt nearly as much of a turnover prone Quarterback as you might have thought.....


So then you compare Cutler to Elway right?

(Im not comparing the 2)

So, Jay Cutler is more turnover-prone than Jeff George?

sneakers
03-29-2009, 02:07 AM
That's why I heard you AFTER I stepped on those damned caltrops.

Those things are nasty little devices...it makes my skin crawl imagining an elephant stepping on one.

EMB6903
03-29-2009, 02:08 AM
So, Jay Cutler is more turnover-prone than Jeff George?



as of right now,yes.... But its not like Cutler threw 25+ ints or anything

he threw 18 in over 600 attempts, you guys think thats horrible... its not.

Remember Ben also threw 20+ ints one year as well

sneakers
03-29-2009, 02:09 AM
which qb has cooler hair? ("neither" is not acceptable answer)

MOtorboat
03-29-2009, 02:12 AM
as of right now,yes.... But its not like Cutler threw 25+ ints or anything

he threw 18 in over 600 attempts, you guys think thats horrible... its not.

Remember Ben also threw 20+ ints one year as well

No...the number...solely by itself, doesn't look like a problem...but, as I gear up for baseball...45 Home Runs looks awesome. But when you strike out 105 times and walk only 20, and hit .266, then it becomes a problem.

If you hit 45 home runs, strike out 30 times, walk 40 and hit .310...the strike outs aren't a very big deal...

Shazam!
03-29-2009, 02:15 AM
George had some good seasons with a career rating of 80. Even when Oakland was a disaster area he still performed ok. Gruden put his stay there to an end. I can even see him making a comeback if a team would check him out. He doesn't have the kind of miles on him a normal 40 year old QB would have.

sneakers
03-29-2009, 02:15 AM
No...the number...solely by itself, doesn't look like a problem...but, as I gear up for baseball...45 Home Runs looks awesome. But when you strike out 105 times and walk only 20, and hit .266, then it becomes a problem.


Adam Dunn!!!!!!!!


(plus 50-75 more walks although)

MOtorboat
03-29-2009, 02:17 AM
Adam Dunn!!!!!!!!


(plus 50-75 more walks although)

I'm SOOO glad someone got the reference....

EMB6903
03-29-2009, 02:19 AM
damn it must be nice for Ben Reothlisberger... he has yet to have thrown the ball over 500 times in his entire career. He threw 23 ints having only thrown the ball 469 times in his 3rd year in the league.

LoyalSoldier
03-29-2009, 02:20 AM
No...like I said...you're right.

Jay Cutler is a football god. If we fix everything wrong NOT associated with Jay Cutler, then we will win the Super Bowl.

Wow amazing straw man. Great going.

Come back when you can stop with the logical fallacies.


See, you're not focusing on that. You're only making excuses.

Once again you blow off legitimate problems as excuses.


Actually, come to think about it, maybe there is. Denver was 16th in points. Jay Cutler is responsible for scoring points. That's his sole job. Score points. Maybe he should have scored more points? :noidea:

I have said Jay was not blameless, but hey if you didn't assume that was my stance you couldn't have made that awesome straw man! LOGICAL FALLACY FTW!

MOtorboat
03-29-2009, 02:25 AM
Wow amazing straw man. Great going.

Come back when you can stop with the logical fallacies.



Once again you blow off legitimate problems as excuses.



I have said Jay was not blameless, but hey if you didn't assume that was my stance you couldn't have made that awesome straw man! LOGICAL FALLACY FTW!

Come back when you can quit with the "academic argument" references.

The defense sucked. Period. We get that.

How does that explain 16th in scoring and last in turnover margin?

Like you, I'm saying that it wasn't only Jay's fault. I'm simply asking when do we stop making excuses for him?

It's not a "straw man." It's a legitimate argument.

EMB6903
03-29-2009, 02:29 AM
you are right, the offense was turnover prone this year but...

How many turnovers did the defense force this year? I wouldnt be surprised if it was less then Detriot.

MOtorboat
03-29-2009, 02:31 AM
you are right, the offense was turnover prone this year but...

How many turnovers did the defense force this year? I wouldnt be surprised if it was less then Detriot.

Like I've been saying, go ahead and gloss over the problems on offense, and the lack of scoring, because it MUST have been the defense's fault.

LoyalSoldier
03-29-2009, 02:39 AM
Come back when you can quit with the "academic argument" references.

Logical Fallacies apply to way more than academics. Because logic is not restricted to scholars.


The defense sucked. Period. We get that.

Apparently not...


How does that explain 16th in scoring and last in turnover margin?

Maybe the fact that turnover margin INVOLVES THE DEFENSE. *gasp* 13 turnovers forced is half of what we had last year.

The Cardinals actually turned the ball over the exact same number of times as we did on offense. Both teams had 30 turnovers between fumbles and Ints. The Cardinals were even on the year in TO margin while we were -17.

Take a wild guess what the difference was. :tsk:

Funny how much information you can actually obtain if you bother to do the research.


Like you, I'm saying that it wasn't only Jay's fault. I'm simply asking when do we stop making excuses for him?

My question is when do we actually throw the blame where blame is due? Instead of crucifying a QB as the sole reason we had losses last season.


It's not a "straw man." It's a legitimate argument.

Not when you create a fake position that I never took and then tore it apart making yourself look like a saint. That is the definition of a straw man.

EMB6903
03-29-2009, 02:40 AM
Like I've been saying, go ahead and gloss over the problems on offense, and the lack of scoring, because it MUST have been the defense's fault.



The offense wasnt nearly as good as it could be but I also realize how young of an offense they really are... Did you expect the offense to be top 5 in total yards and top 2 in passing ypg heading into the 2008 season?

Broncos ranked 16th in scoring, which isnt something to brag about but it certainly isnt bad.. werent the superbowl champs 20th in scoring?

some people have way too high of expectations for Jay Cutler and dont realize that this kid is 25 years old who has only started 37 games.

CrazyHorse
03-29-2009, 02:47 AM
When you can't stop ball control offenses and lose the time of possesion battle it leaves less opportunities to score. The lack of ability to create turnovers didn't help either.

Shazam!
03-29-2009, 02:52 AM
If you're the QB and knew the defense was garbage, you'd be forcing a lot and playing under pressure because you don't want to see them on the field. A few 3 and Outs is a death sentence let alone a turnover. I'm not making excuses for Cutler either the Offense was far from perfect. When your defense is a complete trainwreck it will make your whole team look worse. Cutler has to improve.

NameUsedBefore
03-29-2009, 03:22 AM
Tons of pass attempts... no actual running game unless you go with the oft used, stats-only viewpoint of the YPC... consistently playing from behind... having some of the worst field position in the league... horrible, just ****ing embarrassing "oh my god really" bad defense... don't get me started on the special teams...

I'm not gonna make excuses for some pass Cutler threw into triple coverage, or whatever else, but the simple fact is that he's not leading the 2008 Patriots to an 8-8. This isn't a winning team, regardless of who is quarterback.

WARHORSE
03-29-2009, 04:14 AM
Cutler is THE most valuable player on the entire team...........BAR NONE.



That pretty much sums it up for the dummies like myself.


If he stays with us, we will be paying him oh.........about 110 million to 150 million depending on certain parameters of team wins, personal stats, off the field issues if any, etc, etc. ..........barring serious injury of course.


Dont see anyone else makin that kinda money any time soon.


So when Cutler is cashing in, a few of us ignorants will be smiling.


And if McStuffin (is that spelled right?) trades him, there will be half the league vying to outbid each other for the 25 yr old, done nothing, 17-20 win/loss whiny, pouty, pissy, crybaby of a quarterback who in the eyes of a few more knowledgable football experts is a carbon copy of Jeff George.


HACK! TOOEY!

DenBronx
03-29-2009, 04:20 AM
more pathetic arguments from cutler bashers...
it will only end when cutler finds the cure for cancer and aids.

Elevation inc
03-29-2009, 06:14 AM
i put this in another thread as well but the 17-20 record is more fault of the defense than jay cutler.


jay's defense has given up 30 plus points 16 times since he has been QB. here are other Qb's records when their defense gives up 30 plus points....

Tom Brady 5-8 (.384);
Jim Kelly 10-20 (.333);
Peyton Manning 9-25 (.265);
Joe Montana 6-17 (.261);
Kurt Warner 6-22 (.214);
Jay Cutler 3-13 (.188);
Steve Young 4-19 (.174);
Ben Roethlisberger 2-10 (.167);
Brett Favre 8-42 (.160);
Terry Bradshaw 4-20-1 (.160);
Donovan McNabb 3-16 (.158);
John Elway 7-41 (.146);
Dan Marino 7-52 (.119);
Phyllis Rivers 1-8 (.111);
Jake Plummer 4-37 (.098), 0-10 w/the Broncos;
Troy Aikman 2-20 (.091);
Ron Jaworski 1-14 (.067);
Eli Manning 1-16 (.059);
Phil Simms 0-20 (.000)


basically no QB can overcome crappy defense all the time


So actually Jay cutler is a great QB with a horrible defense and he kept us from losing alot more Games. Fix the defense and hey we might just get to the superbowl.


its just to bad MCD didnt get the memo about fixing defense.......

DenBronx
03-29-2009, 06:25 AM
actually thats been posted a few times around here. still they will find ways to fault cutler for our d letting teams score over 30 points 40% of the games he has played.

WARHORSE
03-29-2009, 08:02 AM
Its called brainlock.

MOtorboat
03-29-2009, 10:14 AM
more pathetic arguments from cutler bashers...
it will only end when cutler finds the cure for cancer and aids.

I'm not a Cutler basher. I'm a realist.


i put this in another thread as well but the 17-20 record is more fault of the defense than jay cutler.


jay's defense has given up 30 plus points 16 times since he has been QB. here are other Qb's records when their defense gives up 30 plus points....

Tom Brady 5-8 (.384);
Jim Kelly 10-20 (.333);
Peyton Manning 9-25 (.265);
Joe Montana 6-17 (.261);
Kurt Warner 6-22 (.214);
Jay Cutler 3-13 (.188);
Steve Young 4-19 (.174);
Ben Roethlisberger 2-10 (.167);
Brett Favre 8-42 (.160);
Terry Bradshaw 4-20-1 (.160);
Donovan McNabb 3-16 (.158);
John Elway 7-41 (.146);
Dan Marino 7-52 (.119);
Phyllis Rivers 1-8 (.111);
Jake Plummer 4-37 (.098), 0-10 w/the Broncos;
Troy Aikman 2-20 (.091);
Ron Jaworski 1-14 (.067);
Eli Manning 1-16 (.059);
Phil Simms 0-20 (.000)


basically no QB can overcome crappy defense all the time


So actually Jay cutler is a great QB with a horrible defense and he kept us from losing alot more Games. Fix the defense and hey we might just get to the superbowl.


its just to bad MCD didnt get the memo about fixing defense.......

That's a good list. But it also makes me wonder if having a primadonna quarterback is a bad idea.

I want to keep Cutler. I like Cutler. I don't want to get rid of Cutler.

But I'm not going to make excuses for him anymore.

tubby
03-29-2009, 10:38 AM
From the No Shit Files.

Thanks Mo.

DenBronx
03-29-2009, 10:46 AM
your realism has proved nothing in regards to the broncos failures. your only argument is qb's are judged by wins and losses. teams are judged by wins and losses. it's a 53 man roster.

MOtorboat
03-29-2009, 10:50 AM
your realism has proved nothing in regards to the broncos failures. your only argument is qb's are judged by wins and losses. teams are judged by wins and losses. it's a 53 man roster.

Well, then is it that important that we have a pro bowl quarterback?

Lonestar
03-29-2009, 10:53 AM
i put this in another thread as well but the 17-20 record is more fault of the defense than jay cutler.


jay's defense has given up 30 plus points 16 times since he has been QB. here are other Qb's records when their defense gives up 30 plus points....

Tom Brady 5-8 (.384);
Jim Kelly 10-20 (.333);
Peyton Manning 9-25 (.265);
Joe Montana 6-17 (.261);
Kurt Warner 6-22 (.214);
Jay Cutler 3-13 (.188);
Steve Young 4-19 (.174);
Ben Roethlisberger 2-10 (.167);
Brett Favre 8-42 (.160);
Terry Bradshaw 4-20-1 (.160);
Donovan McNabb 3-16 (.158);
John Elway 7-41 (.146);
Dan Marino 7-52 (.119);
Phyllis Rivers 1-8 (.111);
Jake Plummer 4-37 (.098), 0-10 w/the Broncos;
Troy Aikman 2-20 (.091);
Ron Jaworski 1-14 (.067);
Eli Manning 1-16 (.059);
Phil Simms 0-20 (.000)


basically no QB can overcome crappy defense all the time


So actually Jay cutler is a great QB with a horrible defense and he kept us from losing alot more Games. Fix the defense and hey we might just get to the superbowl.


its just to bad MCD didnt get the memo about fixing defense.......

I guess you could Also say mikey did not get this memo the past almost decade either.

Northman
03-29-2009, 11:19 AM
i put this in another thread as well but the 17-20 record is more fault of the defense than jay cutler.


jay's defense has given up 30 plus points 16 times since he has been QB. here are other Qb's records when their defense gives up 30 plus points....

Tom Brady 5-8 (.384);
Jim Kelly 10-20 (.333);
Peyton Manning 9-25 (.265);
Joe Montana 6-17 (.261);
Kurt Warner 6-22 (.214);
Jay Cutler 3-13 (.188);
Steve Young 4-19 (.174);
Ben Roethlisberger 2-10 (.167);
Brett Favre 8-42 (.160);
Terry Bradshaw 4-20-1 (.160);
Donovan McNabb 3-16 (.158);
John Elway 7-41 (.146);
Dan Marino 7-52 (.119);
Phyllis Rivers 1-8 (.111);
Jake Plummer 4-37 (.098), 0-10 w/the Broncos;
Troy Aikman 2-20 (.091);
Ron Jaworski 1-14 (.067);
Eli Manning 1-16 (.059);
Phil Simms 0-20 (.000)


basically no QB can overcome crappy defense all the time


So actually Jay cutler is a great QB with a horrible defense and he kept us from losing alot more Games. Fix the defense and hey we might just get to the superbowl.


its just to bad MCD didnt get the memo about fixing defense.......


Hey! What are you doing? Why are you bringing logic into the discussion? Shame on you. :lol:

omac
03-29-2009, 11:26 AM
i put this in another thread as well but the 17-20 record is more fault of the defense than jay cutler.


jay's defense has given up 30 plus points 16 times since he has been QB. here are other Qb's records when their defense gives up 30 plus points....

Tom Brady 5-8 (.384);
Jim Kelly 10-20 (.333);
Peyton Manning 9-25 (.265);
Joe Montana 6-17 (.261);
Kurt Warner 6-22 (.214);
Jay Cutler 3-13 (.188);
Steve Young 4-19 (.174);
Ben Roethlisberger 2-10 (.167);
Brett Favre 8-42 (.160);
Terry Bradshaw 4-20-1 (.160);
Donovan McNabb 3-16 (.158);
John Elway 7-41 (.146);
Dan Marino 7-52 (.119);
Phyllis Rivers 1-8 (.111);
Jake Plummer 4-37 (.098), 0-10 w/the Broncos;
Troy Aikman 2-20 (.091);
Ron Jaworski 1-14 (.067);
Eli Manning 1-16 (.059);
Phil Simms 0-20 (.000)


basically no QB can overcome crappy defense all the time


So actually Jay cutler is a great QB with a horrible defense and he kept us from losing alot more Games. Fix the defense and hey we might just get to the superbowl.


its just to bad MCD didnt get the memo about fixing defense.......

Great post and great research! :salute:

DenBronx
03-29-2009, 11:37 AM
Well, then is it that important that we have a pro bowl quarterback?

do you really need the answer to that question?

Elevation inc
03-29-2009, 11:43 AM
its like this, we all just saw the list, i personally think cutler needs a fair defense. Im not asking for much but a 20-22nd ranked defense..is that to much to ask???? that could really help him out. instead he spent the last 2 years airing it out pulling 4th quarter drives, tying scores, and some comeback wins out of his kiester, all the while watching continous games where his defense handed the game to the other team.....he is a young QB and people are severely undervaluing his importance to the team. Now he has had his moments and mistakes, but he has only been a starter for 2 years with a crappy defense and special teams. give the guy a fair shot.


i do sincerely belive jay deserves this shot with at least a sub par defense, because as my list showed, all the greats were given a good defense at some point in there careers and when they didnt have a good defense they failed extensively as well..... lets wait till cutler gets a legit shot to prove himself like they did.


IS it really neccessary to discount what jay has done for this team, when 16 of his starts the defense was gone.


you may not like his attitude or his primadona thoughts, but lets be real he is under ridicolous scrutiny, and pressure in denver and that was before a New coach came in trying to revamp a offense that didnt need revamping.....all so he could toot his own horn if it works out. His diabetes is a much bigger role than you all realize and while its not an excuse many of us have seen first hand how emotional and moody one can get even when its controlled.



I'll i ask is for MCD to fix a defense that shanny ignored for years and eventually paid for. At least then jay gets a shot to prove he is a greatd QB, instead of facing all this criticsm, based of bias when its clear he was facing insurmountable odds the last few years, with a defense that no great in history would have had a winning record with. especially since the facts are right in these last few posts....

Lonestar
03-29-2009, 11:48 AM
your realism has proved nothing in regards to the broncos failures. your only argument is qb's are judged by wins and losses. teams are judged by wins and losses. it's a 53 man roster.

I remember lots of folks taking the opposite side when the Jake wars were on.. Hmmmmmmmmm

Elevation inc
03-29-2009, 11:49 AM
I guess you could Also say mikey did not get this memo the past almost decade either.


no he didnt and thats why he is gone...MCD better get a quick lesson.....especially since he conviently forgets that cassel his bread and butter QB was a very uncomposed QB in tough situations and very rarely won last year against a decent team.....if it wasnt for the fact that new england had a good defense at times....NEw england really would have crumbled last year


MCD would be wise to take note and not just fluff the defense priorities, especially since he is now "THE MAN" with all the power...because you can do what you want at QB...but if our defense is anywhere near what it was last year, denver will call for his head in a heartbeat.....


and with no set identity on defense many new faces, and a brand new hybrid scheme???? well lets just say his odds arent good.....getting rid of a proven talent like cutler......well that decreases them even more....

Lonestar
03-29-2009, 11:54 AM
its like this, we all just saw the list, i personally think cutler needs a fair defense. Im not asking for much but a 20-22nd ranked defense..is that to much to ask???? that could really help him out. instead he spent the last 2 years airing it out pulling 4th quarter drives, tying scores, and some comeback wins out of his kiester, all the while watching continous games where his defense handed the game to the other team.....he is a young QB and people are severely undervaluing his importance to the team. Now he has had his moments and mistakes, but he has only been a starter for 2 years with a crappy defense and special teams. give the guy a fair shot.


i do sincerely belive jay deserves this shot with at least a sub par defense, because as my list showed, all the greats were given a good defense at some point in there careers and when they didnt have a good defense they failed extensively as well..... lets wait till cutler gets a legit shot to prove himself like they did.


IS it really neccessary to discount what jay has done for this team, when 16 of his starts the defense was gone.


you may not like his attitude or his primadona thoughts, but lets be real he is under ridicolous scrutiny, and pressure in denver and that was before a New coach came in trying to revamp a offense that didnt need revamping.....all so he could toot his own horn if it works out. His diabetes is a much bigger role than you all realize and while its not an excuse many of us have seen first hand how emotional and moody one can get even when its controlled.



I'll i ask is for MCD to fix a defense that shanny ignored for years and eventually paid for. At least then jay gets a shot to prove he is a greatd QB, instead of facing all this criticsm, based of bias when its clear he was facing insurmountable odds the last few years, with a defense that no great in history would have had a winning record with. especially since the facts are right in these last few posts....

Gee I guess that some of those points that jay gave the other team does not count towards the 21 point threshold?

Sorry but in some of those games he was playing from behind because he gave up field position or swung the th BIG MO with turn over in their red zone..

While jay has a lot of potential so have many other QB's that have failed.. simply because they were drafted to lousy teams with lousy coaching..

jay issues are between his ears the rest of the package seem to be fine..

Elevation inc
03-29-2009, 11:58 AM
Gee I guess that some of those points that jay gave the other team does not count towards the 21 point threshold?

Sorry but in some of those games he was playing from behind because he gave up field position or swung the th BIG MO with turn over in their red zone..

While jay has a lot of potential so have many other QB's that have failed.. simply because they were drafted to lousy teams with lousy coaching..

jay issues are between his ears the rest of the package seem to be fine..

if you read my post i sated he has issues and things he needs to work on.... im quite capable of knowing his errors in the turnover department, funny how he turned the ball over just like manning and brady did there first 2 years. he also threw more attempts than any of those qb's
he is not excused for some of those turnovers, but without him we wouldnt have the 4th quarter comeback wins, or tying drives either.


see the big picture and you will understand what i am getting at...not that jay is god, but that he deserves a fair shot with a average defense.....

MOtorboat
03-29-2009, 11:59 AM
no he didnt and thats why he is gone...MCD better get a quick lesson.....especially since he conviently forgets that cassel his bread and butter QB was a very uncomposed QB in tough situations and very rarely won last year against a decent team.....if it wasnt for the fact that new england had a good defense at times....NEw england really would have crumbled last year


MCD would be wise to take note and not just fluff the defense priorities, especially since he is now "THE MAN" with all the power...because you can do what you want at QB...but if our defense is anywhere near what it was last year, denver will call for his head in a heartbeat.....


and with no set identity on defense many new faces, and a brand new hybrid scheme???? well lets just say his odds arent good.....getting rid of a proven talent like cutler......well that decreases them even more....

Let's remember that he hasn't really done anything in regards to "dismantling" the offense. He added three running backs (a little too many?) and a wide receiver. Not one young player has been traded or released. I realize there's still time for that to happen, but it hasn't happened yet.

As far as the defense goes, he's plugged a few holes, namely at safety where, before he did so, there was a lot of clamor about drafting a safety. He's brought in a veteran linebacker who doesn't seem to have injury problems like Boss Bailey, resigned a decent sized guy in Peterson, who should fit into the scheme, and signed a defensive tackle who will most likely start.

He's not ignoring the defense, and he's not dismantling the offense.

Lonestar
03-29-2009, 12:02 PM
no he didnt and thats why he is gone...MCD better get a quick lesson.....especially since he conviently forgets that cassel his bread and butter QB was a very uncomposed QB in tough situations and very rarely won last year against a decent team.....if it wasnt for the fact that new england had a good defense at times....NEw england really would have crumbled last year


MCD would be wise to take note and not just fluff the defense priorities, especially since he is now "THE MAN" with all the power...because you can do what you want at QB...but if our defense is anywhere near what it was last year, denver will call for his head in a heartbeat.....


and with no set identity on defense many new faces, and a brand new hybrid scheme???? well lets just say his odds arent good.....getting rid of a proven talent like cutler......well that decreases them even more....


nor did jay win against decent teams and frankly will struggle even more this coming year if he does not get over himself and get in and learn the O with his teammates..

Josh will handle the defense and frankly it will get better just with coaching and scheme alone.. how much better God only knows at this point.. but they can't get much worse..

jay needs to worry about being a leader and so far he has failed with epic proportions..

I believe that Pat saw this kids vision and therefore hired him as the best fit for DEN.. now it is time for jay to get that message but he won't talk to any one.. how it that anyones fault but jay and his brain cook..

Elevation inc
03-29-2009, 12:07 PM
Let's remember that he hasn't really done anything in regards to "dismantling" the offense. He added three running backs (a little too many?) and a wide receiver. Not one young player has been traded or released. I realize there's still time for that to happen, but it hasn't happened yet.

As far as the defense goes, he's plugged a few holes, namely at safety where, before he did so, there was a lot of clamor about drafting a safety. He's brought in a veteran linebacker who doesn't seem to have injury problems like Boss Bailey, resigned a decent sized guy in Peterson, who should fit into the scheme, and signed a defensive tackle who will most likely start.

He's not ignoring the defense, and he's not dismantling the offense.

im not saying he dismantled or ignored the defense, but his approach is just like shannys aging vets he thinks he can get a good deal on.....well for the last 5-6 years its been proven that approach dont work so great.....

i love dawkins but the guys is 36 and cant cover 4 for crap anymore....goodman had 1 good year in the last 3 and he is 31....was a 5 year contract really neccessary after all the huff about blys age and contract......i like the reid and peterson transactions.....but davis was not so good his last couple years in clevland and many fans wanted him gone.......

and on offense i dont hate his moves but jordan is injury prone, and arrington hasnt done much......



so when i look at these moves i see the same crap shanny tried, finding that guy coming off injury, or that guy with injury history, or that special teams guy you feel will break out.....the injury bug has bit this team long enough

so forgive me for having severe reservations about a guy who is cloning the actions shanny did and has yet to ever win a football game as a headcoach....ever!!!

Elevation inc
03-29-2009, 12:09 PM
nor did jay win against decent teams and frankly will struggle even more this coming year if he does not get over himself and get in and learn the O with his teammates..

Josh will handle the defense and frankly it will get better just with coaching and scheme alone.. how much better God only knows at this point.. but they can't get much worse..

jay needs to worry about being a leader and so far he has failed with epic proportions..

I believe that Pat saw this kids vision and therefore hired him as the best fit for DEN.. now it is time for jay to get that message but he won't talk to any one.. how it that anyones fault but jay and his brain cook..



JAy also didnt have new englands defense......

Lonestar
03-29-2009, 12:19 PM
if you read my post i sated he has issues and things he needs to work on.... im quite capable of knowing his errors in the turnover department, funny how he turned the ball over just like manning and brady did there first 2 years. he also threw more attempts than any of those qb's he is not excused for some of those turnovers, but without him we wouldnt have the 4th quarter comeback wins, or tying drives either.


see the big picture and you will understand what i am getting at...not that jay is god, but that he deserves a fair shot with a average defense.....


Well there are turn overs and then there are turn overs .. Were manning and Brady's at really bad times also? did those cause their defense a back breaking blow..

Just looking an pure numbers really do not mean much..

as for having to throw so much was that him or mikey abandoning the run in many of those games because we were screwed by the turn overs..

In almost every game the running game was producing good number not great ones but good one..

Also just how many of those possessions would have produced more TOP had jay decided to throw the ball to the open man instead of going for the gold with Marshall.. jay caused alot of the issues and yes he was a hero at times but still was the QB of record in those loses..

But he was a pro bowl QB so all is forgiven right?

MOtorboat
03-29-2009, 12:22 PM
im not saying he dismantled or ignored the defense, but his approach is just like shannys aging vets he thinks he can get a good deal on.....well for the last 5-6 years its been proven that approach dont work so great.....

i love dawkins but the guys is 36 and cant cover 4 for crap anymore....goodman had 1 good year in the last 3 and he is 31....was a 5 year contract really neccessary after all the huff about blys age and contract......i like the reid and peterson transactions.....but davis was not so good his last couple years in clevland and many fans wanted him gone.......

and on offense i dont hate his moves but jordan is injury prone, and arrington hasnt done much......



so when i look at these moves i see the same crap shanny tried, finding that guy coming off injury, or that guy with injury history, or that special teams guy you feel will break out.....the injury bug has bit this team long enough

so forgive me for having severe reservations about a guy who is cloning the actions shanny did and has yet to ever win a football game as a headcoach....ever!!!

Let's give the guy the draft before we tag him as a Shanahan clone. If he goes offense, offense, offense with the first three picks, I'm going to start agreeing with you, but until that happens, its pretty hard to judge what he's done.

I, personally, don't have a problem that we didn't sign some of the top free agent names. The Redskins paid too much for Albert Haynesworth, Asumogha, Lewis, Dansby and Hall all signed with their previous teams, Julius Peppers and Terrell Suggs were both franchised and Bart Scott wanted to play for the Jets.

Who, of those guys did you expect him to get? Landing Dawkins was quite a coup, actually. I can understand some frustrations with allowing Canty and Spicer to maybe get away. But maybe they didn't want to play in Denver.

Elevation inc
03-29-2009, 12:36 PM
Let's give the guy the draft before we tag him as a Shanahan clone. If he goes offense, offense, offense with the first three picks, I'm going to start agreeing with you, but until that happens, its pretty hard to judge what he's done.

I, personally, don't have a problem that we didn't sign some of the top free agent names. The Redskins paid too much for Albert Haynesworth, Asumogha, Lewis, Dansby and Hall all signed with their previous teams, Julius Peppers and Terrell Suggs were both franchised and Bart Scott wanted to play for the Jets.

Who, of those guys did you expect him to get? Landing Dawkins was quite a coup, actually. I can understand some frustrations with allowing Canty and Spicer to maybe get away. But maybe they didn't want to play in Denver.



i wanted canty really bad, but instead of giving that 7.2 million guarenteed canty wanted we gave it to a safety who is 36 years old, and cant cover....that makes no sense when the achiles heal of this defense has and always will be the lack of talent on the D-line....i mean we paid 7.2 million for some hard hits, and veteran leadership...thats great and all.....but we saw what happened when lynch couldnt cover......


i am not really against MCdaniels...i want him to succede, but seriously he is moves are like shanny's, and he gave away the best thing the FO had in terms of talent scouting when the goodmans were fired....am i really suppose to have faith in a GM that stated himself he needs scouting work, and a coach who has never scouted defensive prospects in colleg at the level he has to now......



Missouri bronc, and Jrwiz i am glad you guys have a different stance because it makes debating possible.....this is actually a interesting debate when cool heads prevail and reason can be given by both sides.....


i personally just want denver to succede, but nothing in the past few months of action by the denver FO has given me faith that we are on a righteous exciting path.....now i am not preaching doom and gloom....but untill its proven this FO can work....i dont really see the point of talking them up when there accomplishments dont merit it.

Lonestar
03-29-2009, 12:41 PM
JAy also didnt have new englands defense......


well lets look at this revelation..

they also did not have a "Pro Bowl" QB

there was a net of 65 more yards per game given up by DEN 374 than NE 309..

there was a net of 30 less yards per game gained up by DEN 395 than NE 365..

there was a 1 more fumble DEN 18 than NE 17

penalty yards D 739- NE 501

First downs per game D22.1 NE 22.2

total points D370 ne 410

interceptions thrown D18 ne 21..

sorry but I do not see the huge difference except in penalty yards

Bottom line still happens to be jay needs to get in and listen to his coach and lead his team.. with every passing day it looks like it is all about money.. new contract for jay and a huge payday for his agent.. same as with Mc Nair and Brett

MOtorboat
03-29-2009, 12:41 PM
i wanted canty really bad, but instead of giving that 7.2 million guarenteed canty wanted we gave it to a safety who is 36 years old, and cant cover....that makes no sense when the achiles heal of this defense has and always will be the lack of talent on the D-line....i mean we paid 7.2 million for some hard hits, and veteran leadership...thats great and all.....but we saw what happened when lynch couldnt cover......


i am not really against MCdaniels...i want him to succede, but seriously he is moves are like shanny's, and he gave away the best thing the FO had in terms of talent scouting when the goodmans were fired....am i really suppose to have faith in a GM that stated himself he needs scouting work, and a coach who has never scouted defensive prospects in colleg at the level he has to now......



Missouri bronc, and Jrwiz i am glad you guys have a different stance because it makes debating possible.....this is actually a interesting debate when cool heads prevail and reason can be given by both sides.....


i personally just want denver to succede, but nothing in the past few months of action by the denver FO has given me faith that we are on a righteous exciting path.....now i am not preaching doom and gloom....but untill its proven this FO can work....i dont really see the point of talking them up when there accomplishments dont merit it.

There are so many factors in signing free agents though. Chances are Canty didn't want our 7.5, or 9 million, or whatever offer was on the table, if there was one offered (I don't think there probably was). He's from the Bronx. He went home.

So it's hard to tell if he would even consider Denver's money.

Elevation inc
03-29-2009, 12:48 PM
well lets look at this revelation..

they also did not have a "Pro Bowl" QB

there was a net of 65 more yards per game given up by DEN 374 than NE 309..

there was a net of 30 less yards per game gained up by DEN 395 than NE 365..

there was a 1 more fumble DEN 18 than NE 17

penalty yards D 739- NE 501

First downs per game D22.1 NE 22.2

total points D370 ne 410

interceptions thrown D18 ne 21..

sorry but I do not see the huge difference except in penalty yards

Bottom line still happens to be jay needs to get in and listen to his coach and lead his team.. with every passing day it looks like it is all about money.. new contract for jay and a huge payday for his agent.. same as with Mc Nair and Brett



good research...so you believe it to be a cook bug in his ear thing...lol

Broncospsycho77
03-29-2009, 12:52 PM
Just because some teams don't have Pro Bowl-level QBs and win games doesn't necessarily mean that having a Pro Bowl-level QB will hurt us. I just don't understand that rationale.

Elevation inc
03-29-2009, 12:52 PM
There are so many factors in signing free agents though. Chances are Canty didn't want our 7.5, or 9 million, or whatever offer was on the table, if there was one offered (I don't think there probably was). He's from the Bronx. He went home.

So it's hard to tell if he would even consider Denver's money.

the point is signing old, or injury prone players was shanny's MO becasue he thought he could get a great deal....We just pulled the same thing with MCD in charge..and history shows it doesnt work out to well......

MOtorboat
03-29-2009, 12:54 PM
the point is signing old, or injury prone players was shanny's MO becasue he thought he could get a great deal....We just pulled the same thing with MCD in charge..and history shows it doesnt work out to well......

I don't think anyone we signed has any serious injury issues.

They are old. But signing older guys works if you draft right. So let's let him have a draft before we start calling him a Shanahan clone.

Elevation inc
03-29-2009, 12:59 PM
I don't think anyone we signed has any serious injury issues.

They are old. But signing older guys works if you draft right. So let's let him have a draft before we start calling him a Shanahan clone.

lamont jordan hasnt been haelthy since 2004-2005/buckhalter is 2 years removed from some serious knee injuires.

Davis isnt a good player anymore, dawkins is old and lost a step, and goodman has had 1 good year in the last 3.....

MCD certainly isnt a shanny clone......HE hasnt won a nfl game as a headcoach or a playoff game or a superbowl.....no his only moves to clone shanny are the resemblence of the same mistakes shanny made during his offseason spending sprees...the draft is a tell all, but we lost the sole reason there was any talent in denver in the goodmans anyways......

GEM
03-29-2009, 01:00 PM
actually because they are quite similar..


both have strong arms..

both got into trouble because they thought he could force the ball into double and triple coverage..

they overlooked the open receivers wanting to go deep all the time..

did not take direct well from coaches (well this is a maybe for jay) but looking pretty good right now....

got at least one coach fired..

lacked maturity

I've agreed on a lot of the posts here....but Jay Cutler did not get Shanny fired. Shanny got himself fired. Getting blown out in the playoffs, terrible GM decisions, he had enough that he really didn't need Cutler's help. Just can't agree on that one.

Lonestar
03-29-2009, 01:01 PM
good research...so you believe it to be a cook bug in his ear thing...lol


from day one I have said follow the money in this..

while I almost understand why jay is/was pissed.. he went off half cocked and failed to ask josh what was going on..

Why? I believe that cook had brought up the 1.3 mil this year at some time over the off season and told him we need to talk to them afterall your a pro bowl QB..


Hey kid I got Brett and Steve a huge new contract.. I'll make sure your taken care of.. call me any time and we will look at it..

after seeing his upcoming play book and knowing he was not going to make huge incentives playing a more controlled passing game and seeing that they were going to beef up the running game the itch started..

after jay was in HNL listening to his idol Payton and the other pro bowlers the itch got worse..

when this trade talk started cook got between his client and the broncos and drove a wedge in there.. trying to void the contract actually get him the mother load contract.. and his own biggest pay day ever..

Is there any doubt in your mind it is not about money.. lets see 1.3 this next year or 18 duh.......

Northman
03-29-2009, 01:02 PM
I've agreed on a lot of the posts here....but Jay Cutler did not get Shanny fired. Shanny got himself fired. Getting blown out in the playoffs, terrible GM decisions, he had enough that he really didn't need Cutler's help. Just can't agree on that one.


Yea, i dont understand that either. Thats a serious reach on Jr's part.

Elevation inc
03-29-2009, 01:03 PM
I don't think anyone we signed has any serious injury issues.


They are old. But signing older guys works if you draft right. So let's let him have a draft before we start calling him a Shanahan clone.

people thought boss bailey was gonna be good to go as well. college prospects drop big time with injury histroy.....there is a reason to be worried about past injuries and old players and its legit

Lonestar
03-29-2009, 01:05 PM
Just because some teams don't have Pro Bowl-level QBs and win games doesn't necessarily mean that having a Pro Bowl-level QB will hurt us. I just don't understand that rationale.


how did he really get to the pro bowl.. by passing the ball going to Marshall in double to quadruple coverage instead of going after the open WR that was open..

he is going to have to play controlled in the new scheme or face the consequences..

yet he could be a Pro bowl QB in the system the key is will be be or be another Jeff George doing it his way..

Northman
03-29-2009, 01:09 PM
how did he really get to the pro bowl.. by passing the ball going to Marshall in double to quadruple coverage instead of going after the open WR that was open..

he is going to have to play controlled in the new scheme or face the consequences..

yet he could be a Pro bowl QB in the system the key is will be be or be another Jeff George doing it his way..


He got to the Pro Bowl playing the best he could on a really bad team.

Lonestar
03-29-2009, 01:14 PM
I've agreed on a lot of the posts here....but Jay Cutler did not get Shanny fired. Shanny got himself fired. Getting blown out in the playoffs, terrible GM decisions, he had enough that he really didn't need Cutler's help. Just can't agree on that one.

well perhaps he did not directly get him fired but had mikey not had a gunslinger back there do you think he would have totally ignored the D that past two years.. made those playing defense feel like second class citizens a quote from DJ..

also many times last year jay went for the gusto throwing into double nd triple coverage while ignoring open receivers that was a Jeff George look alike thing.. always thinking his gun would bail him out and causing a lot of three and outs also..

I think if you really look at it then maybe it is not a stretch it appears to be at first glance..

just think about it logically..

Northman
03-29-2009, 01:16 PM
well perhaps he did not directly get him fired but had mikey not had a gunslinger back there do you think he would have totally ignored the D that past two years.. made those playing defense feel like second class citizens a quote from DJ..

also many times last year jay went for the gusto throwing into double nd triple coverage while ignoring open receivers that was a Jeff George look alike thing.. always thinking his gun would bail him out and causing a lot of three and outs also..

I think if you really look at it then maybe it is not a stretch it appears to be at first glance..

just think about it logically..

Your insane.

Lonestar
03-29-2009, 01:20 PM
He got to the Pro Bowl playing the best he could on a really bad team.

so now a 8-8 team was really bad.. finally your coming around.. it was a bad team and mikey was the huge reason for it..

yes he got to the pro bowl playing for himself and not in the teams interests that I will agree with..

we all know if we are honest that he made a lot of bad decisions while passing the ball.. why did he do that to win games or increase his incentives and pay days..

We will never know for sure will we?

Lonestar
03-29-2009, 01:20 PM
Your insane.


just logical my friend

broncophan
03-29-2009, 01:24 PM
I've agreed on a lot of the posts here....but Jay Cutler did not get Shanny fired. Shanny got himself fired. Getting blown out in the playoffs, terrible GM decisions, he had enough that he really didn't need Cutler's help. Just can't agree on that one.

The moment Shanahan benched a veteran qb for a rookie qb when his team was 7-4....is the moment that led to Shanahan being fired.....not the only thing....but Cutler...and his poor leadership skills.....when the team needed veteran leadership skills.....sure didn't help Shanahan......I don't care how many yards he threw for.

Not a Plummer lover or Cutler hater......but it is what it is...............

atwater27
03-29-2009, 01:28 PM
This thread is 10 shades of gay.

Northman
03-29-2009, 01:28 PM
so now a 8-8 team was really bad.. finally your coming around.. it was a bad team and mikey was the huge reason for it..

yes he got to the pro bowl playing for himself and not in the teams interests that I will agree with..

we all know if we are honest that he made a lot of bad decisions while passing the ball.. why did he do that to win games or increase his incentives and pay days..

We will never know for sure will we?


Now your reaching again.

Ive never stated that this team was 'good' to begin with. So im not finally coming around to anything. Jay played well carrying a team that was exceptionally bad on defense. I know your not stupid but how it is you cant see that logic is beyond me. And i have never seen Jay act like he is in this for himself. Yea, Jay made some bad decisions, EVERY Qb does that throughout any given year. Yes, even the Mannings and the king Elway made bad decisions in their career and throughout various games. Its a nature of the beast at that position. And some decisions will be worse when there isnt any real help around that player. When Jay finally has a decent team surrounding than we will see the mistakes drop and we will see better progressions when he matures more. But pointing out things that every Qb goes through is lame and a very weak argument.

Northman
03-29-2009, 01:29 PM
The moment Shanahan benched a veteran qb for a rookie qb when his team was 7-4....is the moment that led to Shanahan being fired.....not the only thing....but Cutler...and his poor leadership skills.....when the team needed veteran leadership skills.....sure didn't help Shanahan......I don't care how many yards he threw for.

Not a Plummer lover or Cutler hater......but it is what it is...............


BS.

Gamechanger
03-29-2009, 01:31 PM
Now your reaching again.

Ive never stated that this team was 'good' to begin with. So im not finally coming around to anything. Jay played well carrying a team that was exceptionally bad on defense. I know your not stupid but how it is you cant see that logic is beyond me. And i have never seen Jay act like he is in this for himself. Yea, Jay made some bad decisions, EVERY Qb does that throughout any given year. Yes, even the Mannings and the king Elway made bad decisions in their career and throughout various games. Its a nature of the beast at that position. And some decisions will be worse when there isnt any real help around that player. When Jay finally has a decent team surrounding than we will see the mistakes drop and we will see better progressions when he matures more. But pointing out things that every Qb goes through is lame and a very weak argument.

6 picks.......agreed with all you say

GEM
03-29-2009, 01:34 PM
well perhaps he did not directly get him fired but had mikey not had a gunslinger back there do you think he would have totally ignored the D that past two years.. made those playing defense feel like second class citizens a quote from DJ..

also many times last year jay went for the gusto throwing into double nd triple coverage while ignoring open receivers that was a Jeff George look alike thing.. always thinking his gun would bail him out and causing a lot of three and outs also..

I think if you really look at it then maybe it is not a stretch it appears to be at first glance..

just think about it logically..


I am thinking about it logically and it still doesn't fit that Cutler had anything to do with Shanny's firing. His utter failure as a GM, as a head coach on the defensive side of the ball, definitely. Cutler did not get Shanny fired. His complete ignorance when it came to Defense and defensive personnel, both coaching and players, had everything to do with his firing. You're reaching.

Elevation inc
03-29-2009, 01:38 PM
The moment Shanahan benched a veteran qb for a rookie qb when his team was 7-4....is the moment that led to Shanahan being fired.....not the only thing....but Cutler...and his poor leadership skills.....when the team needed veteran leadership skills.....sure didn't help Shanahan......I don't care how many yards he threw for.

Not a Plummer lover or Cutler hater......but it is what it is...............

this just isnt true.....plummer was making horrible decisions and his team was bailing him out......Al wilson finally hit a wall. the clevland browncos filtered to oblivion, lynch lost a step, and many of the players started playing leaderless with al and lycnh not the same. cutler is not the main reason the season went down the drain that year or last year the defense that gave up 16 30 point plus games over the last 2 years is the main factor period!!!!

getlynched47
03-29-2009, 01:44 PM
17-20.

One coach fired.

Better start winning some games.

I'll like to see you win games with a defense ranked in the upper 20's and not having a consistant running game :coffee:

broncophan
03-29-2009, 01:45 PM
this just isnt true.....plummer was making horrible decisions and his team was bailing him out......Al wilson finally hit a wall. the clevland browncos filtered to oblivion, lynch lost a step, and many of the players started playing leaderless with al and lycnh not the same. cutler is not the main reason the season went down the drain that year or last year the defense that gave up 16 30 point plus games over the last 2 years is the main factor period!!!!

Many factors led to Shanny being fired......yes the defense last year was a part of it...

but a kid qb with poor leadership skills who has not been part of a winning football team since his high school days was a part of it as well.....This team needs an established leader at the qb position....now more than ever.

And now we have a kid head coach to go along with our kid qb(at least for now)......yikes......

MOtorboat
03-29-2009, 01:48 PM
I'll like to see you win games with a defense ranked in the upper 20's and not having a consistant running game :coffee:

No one wants to see me playing quarterback for the Broncos. I can't see over Maurice Jones-Drew, much less Ryan Clady.

The rest of that sounds like a lot of coaching. A badly assembled defense, and our coach trying to air it out instead of run the ball. There certainly was a lot of pressure on Cutler. But, he made too many mistakes. There were plenty of games last year (with all that he did), that he lost, namely the Raiders and Chiefs games that we lost. Those two games are won, and its a whole different scenario, and Shanahan is still the coach.

Lonestar
03-29-2009, 01:49 PM
I am thinking about it logically and it still doesn't fit that Cutler had anything to do with Shanny's firing. His utter failure as a GM, as a head coach on the defensive side of the ball, definitely. Cutler did not get Shanny fired. His complete ignorance when it came to Defense and defensive personnel, both coaching and players, had everything to do with his firing. You're reaching.

do you think mikey put all his eggs in one basket? jay to bail him out if you do then jay while not directly getting him fired was a huge part in his demise..

mikey could not have logically thought he would win it all on offense did he?

WHO knows for sure what his ego caused ..

I still think his dependence on jay was a part of his firing.. along with all his other issues..

Lonestar
03-29-2009, 01:53 PM
Many factors led to Shanny being fired......yes the defense last year was a part of it...

but a kid qb with poor leadership skills who has not been part of a winning football team since his high school days was a part of it as well.....This team needs an established leader at the qb position....now more than ever.

And now we have a kid head coach to go along with our kid qb(at least for now)......yikes......

but grounded in solid team work opposed to all for one..

all he has to do is trying getting some talent on D and they will feel like part of the team again.

If he hits the mother load it will take time to meld them all together but they will try harder than they did last year.. those few that are let that is..

but he is bringing in team players with leadership skills.. and that will be HUGE for morale..

GEM
03-29-2009, 01:55 PM
do you think mikey put all his eggs in one basket? jay to bail him out if you do then jay while not directly getting him fired was a huge part in his demise..

mikey could not have logically thought he would win it all on offense did he?

WHO knows for sure what his ego caused ..

I still think his dependence on jay was a part of his firing.. along with all his other issues..

No, I think he focused on the OFFENSE and ignored the DEFENSE. That is not on Jay's shoulders. Jay can't be held responsible because the coach chooses to ignore the glaring weaknesses of his team. Over confidence in one player is a coach issue, not the player issue. Therefore, it wasn't Jay that got Shanny fired, it was Shanny who led to his own demise. Defense while at times has been better has ALWAYS been a glaring weakness during Shanny's tenure.

Northman
03-29-2009, 01:58 PM
but grounded in solid team work opposed to all for one..



:lol:

Um, ok.

Part of being a team player is having good communication and honesty. He has shown none of that thus far in his dealing with Jay. McD still has a lot of work to do before he can be crowned a team type of guy.

Lonestar
03-29-2009, 02:02 PM
No, I think he focused on the OFFENSE and ignored the DEFENSE. That is not on Jay's shoulders. Jay can't be held responsible because the coach chooses to ignore the glaring weaknesses of his team. Over confidence in one player is a coach issue, not the player issue. Therefore, it wasn't Jay that got Shanny fired, it was Shanny who led to his own demise. Defense while at times has been better has ALWAYS been a glaring weakness during Shanny's tenure.

we are seeing the same issue from different side of the street..

mikey go fired because he place to much in blowing folks out opposed from playing controlled and wining games the old fashioned way with balance.. he relied on jay to bail him out and he did not..

while jay did not actually get him fired he was a huge reason why he was.. he allowed his QB to run hog wild and run up his personal stats hoping that they would win some games and he would be able to point to jay being a PB QB..

Sorry If I'm not getting through to you but that is ONE of the reasons mikey is overseeing the construction of his house now instead of getting ready for the upcoming draft..

I wonder if he will be a talking head on one of the draft shows:laugh::laugh::laugh:..

we may have to agree to disagree on this one..

broncophan
03-29-2009, 02:02 PM
but grounded in solid team work opposed to all for one..

all he has to do is trying getting some talent on D and they will feel like part of the team again.

If he hits the mother load it will take time to meld them all together but they will try harder than they did last year.. those few that are let that is..

but he is bringing in team players with leadership skills.. and that will be HUGE for morale..

I hope you are right.....

As young as he is.......he will have to work hard and do all the "right" things to get respect from his (older) players.
I do like some of the players he has brought in.
and the pats record speaks for itself.......not sure how involved and how much credit McD deserves for that though...

MOtorboat
03-29-2009, 02:03 PM
:lol:

Um, ok.

Part of being a team player is having good communication and honesty. He has shown none of that thus far in his dealing with Jay. McD still has a lot of work to do before he can be crowned a team type of guy.

Last time I checked, McDaniels is the coach. Not another player.

:noidea:

getlynched47
03-29-2009, 02:04 PM
No one wants to see me playing quarterback for the Broncos. I can't see over Maurice Jones-Drew, much less Ryan Clady.

The rest of that sounds like a lot of coaching. A badly assembled defense, and our coach trying to air it out instead of run the ball. There certainly was a lot of pressure on Cutler. But, he made too many mistakes. There were plenty of games last year (with all that he did), that he lost, namely the Raiders and Chiefs games that we lost. Those two games are won, and its a whole different scenario, and Shanahan is still the coach.

Dude, if you throw the ball 40+ times a game and dont have a defense that you can rely on, of course there will be mistakes.

Nobodies perfect.

If McDaniels can make the defense at least respectable again and not lose the production we could get with our running game, Cutler will not have that kind of pressure on him, making the amount of mistakes go down drastically

BTW i know Cutler had some bone-head mistakes like the INT in the Chiefs game when Scheff was wide open :lol:

Northman
03-29-2009, 02:05 PM
Last time I checked, McDaniels is the coach. Not another player.

:noidea:

I see, so are you saying that all players shouldnt put trust in the Coach's?

getlynched47
03-29-2009, 02:06 PM
we are seeing the same issue from different side of the street..

mikey go fired because he place to much in blowing folks out opposed from playing controlled and wining games the old fashioned way with balance.. he relied on jay to bail him out and he did not..

while jay did not actually get him fired he was a huge reason why he was.. he allowed his QB to run hog wild and run up his personal stats hoping that they would win some games and he would be able to point to jay being a PB QB..

Sorry If I'm not getting through to you but that is ONE of the reasons mikey is overseeing the construction of his house now instead of getting ready for the upcoming draft..

I wonder if he will be a talking head on one of the draft shows:laugh::laugh::laugh:..

we may have to agree to disagree on this one..

uh no. Shanahan was fired because of his GM side. He brought in scrubs like Manuel, McCree, Boss Bailey, Koutouvides, Dewayne Robertson and NONE of them panned out.

If you take away Shanahan's GM powers, you are stripping him of his authority. Shanahan was still an unbelievable coach, but his GM decisions are what got him fired. Cutler had nothing to do with Shanahan's firing...

MOtorboat
03-29-2009, 02:07 PM
Dude, if you throw the ball 40+ times a game and dont have a defense that you can rely on, of course there will be mistakes.

Nobodies perfect.

If McDaniels can make the defense at least respectable again and not lose the production we could get with our running game, Cutler will not have that kind of pressure on him, making the amount of mistakes go down drastically

BTW i know Cutler had some bone-head mistakes like the INT in the Chiefs game when Scheff was wide open :lol:

I'm not asking him to be perfect. I'm asking him not to turn the ball over against a 2-win team and a 3-win team. Honestly, I don't think that's too much to ask.

But agree with everything else. If the rest of the team (running game/defense) is respectable, then yes, we will be a better team. And considering that we haven't even got to the draft, I can't assess that at this time.

LoyalSoldier
03-29-2009, 02:07 PM
Jrwiz, let me apply your logic to something else.

So let's say some girl makes a bad decision and ends up getting pregnant. She has to drop out of college and ends up in a terrible life style. So let's blame the baby after it grows up for the mother's failures. Never mind that it was the mother's bad choices that started before the baby was born.

getlynched47
03-29-2009, 02:07 PM
No, I think he focused on the OFFENSE and ignored the DEFENSE. That is not on Jay's shoulders. Jay can't be held responsible because the coach chooses to ignore the glaring weaknesses of his team. Over confidence in one player is a coach issue, not the player issue. Therefore, it wasn't Jay that got Shanny fired, it was Shanny who led to his own demise. Defense while at times has been better has ALWAYS been a glaring weakness during Shanny's tenure.

damn right GEM :salute: :salute:

Shazam!
03-29-2009, 02:07 PM
No player is above the Coach unless your name is Peyton Manning, or in Denver John Elway.

MOtorboat
03-29-2009, 02:08 PM
I see, so are you saying that all players shouldnt put trust in the Coach's?

I didn't say that. But, my opinion is that players have to adhere to the coach, and not the other way around, when it comes to a player-coach relationship. McDaniels is the boss. The player is the employee. That makes it the players responsibility in my personal opinion.

(As far as game planning...I would say its kind of the other way around.)

Northman
03-29-2009, 02:08 PM
I'm not asking him to be perfect. I'm asking him not to turn the ball over against a 2-win team and a 3-win team. Honestly, I don't think that's too much to ask.



Its also not too much to ask to have a defense and a reliable running game.

MOtorboat
03-29-2009, 02:09 PM
Its also not too much to ask to have a defense and a reliable running game. :rolleyes:

And that's coaching, and that's why Shanahan got fired. :rolleyes:

getlynched47
03-29-2009, 02:09 PM
I'm not asking him to be perfect. I'm asking him not to turn the ball over against a 2-win team and a 3-win team. Honestly, I don't think that's too much to ask.

But agree with everything else. If the rest of the team (running game/defense) is respectable, then yes, we will be a better team. And considering that we haven't even got to the draft, I can't assess that at this time.

Fair enough.

Cutler is going into his 4th year. If McDaniels makes the defense and running game respectable, then we can really lock our eyes on Jay Cutler and criticize him if this team doesnt go anywhere :salute:

Gamechanger
03-29-2009, 02:09 PM
I see, so are you saying that all players shouldnt put trust in the Coach's?

even coaches like Jim Mora had players who trusted him :eek:

Northman
03-29-2009, 02:10 PM
I didn't say that. But, my opinion is that players have to adhere to the coach, and not the other way around, when it comes to a player-coach relationship. McDaniels is the boss. The player is the employee. That makes it the players responsibility in my personal opinion.

(As far as game planning...I would say its kind of the other way around.)


Although he is the boss the last thing you want to do is alienate your starting Qb from day one without at least having a discussion first. McD failed to do that and that only shows the team that McD cant be trusted.

Northman
03-29-2009, 02:11 PM
even coaches like Jim Mora had players who trusted him :eek:

I like Jim Mora so i can see why. Im not saying that McD cant fix this but to come out and say he has had this team mentality when he cant even be honest with his Qb is ludicrous.

Northman
03-29-2009, 02:12 PM
And that's coaching, and that's why Shanahan got fired. :rolleyes:

Absolutely, yet your laying all the problems at Jay's feet.

MOtorboat
03-29-2009, 02:13 PM
Although he is the boss the last thing you want to do is alienate your starting Qb from day one without at least having a discussion first. McD failed to do that and that only shows the team that McD cant be trusted.

Well, see, it can be seen in two ways. Did Cutler alienate himself? There are other players on this team who have been reportedly talked about in trade talks. Does that automatically alienate them? Did they cry to the media?

See, that goes both ways. Its been documented that they spoke long before any of this, so I hope you're not saying that that didn't happen, now.

MOtorboat
03-29-2009, 02:14 PM
Absolutely, yet your laying all the problems at Jay's feet.

Not really. But, as a quarterback, it is your responsibility to score points and win football games. That's your responsibility.

broncophan
03-29-2009, 02:15 PM
No, I think he focused on the OFFENSE and ignored the DEFENSE. That is not on Jay's shoulders. Jay can't be held responsible because the coach chooses to ignore the glaring weaknesses of his team. Over confidence in one player is a coach issue, not the player issue. Therefore, it wasn't Jay that got Shanny fired, it was Shanny who led to his own demise. Defense while at times has been better has ALWAYS been a glaring weakness during Shanny's tenure.

Except for the back to back Super Bowl wins.....and all those seasons of winning more games than you lose........you don't do that with a defense"being a glaring weakness".............even if John Elway is your qb.

MOtorboat
03-29-2009, 02:16 PM
I like Jim Mora so i can see why. Im not saying that McD cant fix this but to come out and say he has had this team mentality when he cant even be honest with his Qb is ludicrous.

If you expect McDaniels to fix Cutler's own emotional issues, then that's probably never going to happen.

I still cannot understand how this is McDaniels' job to fix. Fix what. His team is in tact. Its his player who can't get over the fact that they looked at a trade, but of course, as we all know, they ultimately said no. It's not McDaniels' job to fix Cutler's hurt feelings. It's Cutler's job to get over it.

Northman
03-29-2009, 02:17 PM
Well, see, it can be seen in two ways. Did Cutler alienate himself? There are other players on this team who have been reportedly talked about in trade talks. Does that automatically alienate them? Did they cry to the media?

See, that goes both ways. Its been documented that they spoke long before any of this, so I hope you're not saying that that didn't happen, now.


Its also been documented that McD lied to Jay about pursueing a trade. Hence why Jay has reservations about trusting McD. The other players who were traded or in talks about trades either have off the field problems, are injury prone, or just flat out suck so i dont see this as the same situation. Not too mention a lot of the other trade talks came up ONLY after the McD/Jay fiasco and McD finally said "hey, anyone is expendable". So by then anyone on the team knew they were fair game. McD made sure of that when the initial Cutler trade senario came up.

Lonestar
03-29-2009, 02:18 PM
:lol:

Um, ok.

Part of being a team player is having good communication and honesty. He has shown none of that thus far in his dealing with Jay. McD still has a lot of work to do before he can be crowned a team type of guy.

how has Josh been at fault in not having good communication with jay.. if jay is to immature to come in and talk to him and he has reached out on numerous occasions how is he wrong?

Josh is building a team concept not the haves (offense) and have nots (defense) like it has been for nigh on a decade..

You might just want to give him a while to move this disaster of a team in the right direction..

Pat finally figured out just how bad it was and called on Josh to be the new broom..

Northman
03-29-2009, 02:19 PM
If you expect McDaniels to fix Cutler's own emotional issues, then that's probably never going to happen.

I still cannot understand how this is McDaniels' job to fix. Fix what. His team is in tact. Its his player who can't get over the fact that they looked at a trade, but of course, as we all know, they ultimately said no. It's not McDaniels' job to fix Cutler's hurt feelings. It's Cutler's job to get over it.

Does Jay need to move on? Absolutely. But like we've pointed out the trust has been broken. So either McD and him get it worked out or they trade him. But it doesnt change the fact that this whole mess started with McD. How it ends doesnt matter to me just so as long as we finish better than 8-8 this year.

MOtorboat
03-29-2009, 02:19 PM
Its also been documented that McD lied to Jay about pursueing a trade. Hence why Jay has reservations about trusting McD. The other players who were traded or in talks about trades either have off the field problems, are injury prone, or just flat out suck so i dont see this as the same situation. Not too mention a lot of the other trade talks came up ONLY after the McD/Jay fiasco and McD finally said "hey, anyone is expendable". So by then anyone on the team knew they were fair game. McD made sure of that when the initial Cutler trade senario came up.

Documentation of McDaniels actually lying about it is sketchy. I don't know if he lied or not. I don't think he did, but notice the word "think." Cutler and his agent have made a lot of assumptions in this as well...and refusing to talk to the front office certainly didn't help. How can McDaniels lie to Cutler if Cutler won't talk to McDaniels?

Once again coddling the emotional Cutler. Cutler needs to get over it.

Northman
03-29-2009, 02:21 PM
how has Josh been at fault in not having good communication with jay.. if jay is to immature to come in and talk to him and he has reached out on numerous occasions how is he wrong?

Josh is building a team concept not the haves (offense) and have nots (defense) like it has been for nigh on a decade..

You might just want to give him a while to move this disaster of a team in the right direction..

Pat finally figured out just how bad it was and called on Josh to be the new broom..


A concept he didnt announce until after he tried to be a sneaky guy and trade Jay (which was nixed by Xanders, not McD). Furthermore, he was brought in to win, not rebuild so sorry if im not willing to give the guy 5 years to rebuild a winning franchise. We were already moving in that direction with Shanahan.

MOtorboat
03-29-2009, 02:22 PM
Does Jay need to move on? Absolutely. But like we've pointed out the trust has been broken. So either McD and him get it worked out or they trade him. But it doesnt change the fact that this whole mess started with McD. How it ends doesnt matter to me just so as long as we finish better than 8-8 this year.

Well, the onus is on Cutler now.

He failed to show up to team meetings. McDaniels has publicly said he wants Jay to be a Bronco. It's now Jay's job to go to Denver and work with McDaniels.

Northman
03-29-2009, 02:22 PM
Well, the onus is on Cutler now.

He failed to show up to team meetings. McDaniels has publicly said he wants Jay to be a Bronco. It's now Jay's job to go to Denver and work with McDaniels.

That part i dont disagree with.

Elevation inc
03-29-2009, 02:23 PM
Well, the onus is on Cutler now.

He failed to show up to team meetings. McDaniels has publicly said he wants Jay to be a Bronco. It's now Jay's job to go to Denver and work with McDaniels.

this is true in its entirety.....

GEM
03-29-2009, 02:33 PM
we are seeing the same issue from different side of the street..

mikey go fired because he place to much in blowing folks out opposed from playing controlled and wining games the old fashioned way with balance.. he relied on jay to bail him out and he did not..

while jay did not actually get him fired he was a huge reason why he was.. he allowed his QB to run hog wild and run up his personal stats hoping that they would win some games and he would be able to point to jay being a PB QB..

Sorry If I'm not getting through to you but that is ONE of the reasons mikey is overseeing the construction of his house now instead of getting ready for the upcoming draft..

I wonder if he will be a talking head on one of the draft shows:laugh::laugh::laugh:..

we may have to agree to disagree on this one..


His qb had to run hog wild and run up personal stats to try to keep up with the dismal defense. You've gotten your point across just fine, I just don't agree with it.

GEM
03-29-2009, 04:43 PM
Except for the back to back Super Bowl wins.....and all those seasons of winning more games than you lose........you don't do that with a defense"being a glaring weakness".............even if John Elway is your qb.

So having Roc Alexander as your starting CB against the Colts in the playoffs is good? Getting blown out consistently in the playoffs (when it really counts) doesn't show a glaring weakness in defense? We were a good in season team who failed to show up and/or had all the real holes shown when the big stuff was on the line.

I love winning and it's great....but having 1 playoff win while having made it to the playoffs consistently under Shanny was his biggest downfall. When was the last time we had a solid team on ALL sides of the ball? Honestly....it was back during the 2 Super Bowl years....and that was how many years ago?

atwater27
03-29-2009, 05:18 PM
All readers of this amazing thread should really be here...http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=603452#post603452

Dean
03-29-2009, 08:49 PM
So having Roc Alexander as your starting CB against the Colts in the playoffs is good? Getting blown out consistently in the playoffs (when it really counts) doesn't show a glaring weakness in defense? We were a good in season team who failed to show up and/or had all the real holes shown when the big stuff was on the line.

I love winning and it's great....but having 1 playoff win while having made it to the playoffs consistently under Shanny was his biggest downfall. When was the last time we had a solid team on ALL sides of the ball? Honestly....it was back during the 2 Super Bowl years....and that was how many years ago?


It is kind of foggy but wasn't Alexander playing due to injury to Herndon? As far as the play-off humiliations, you are right on with those.

GEM
03-29-2009, 09:22 PM
It is kind of foggy but wasn't Alexander playing due to injury to Herndon? As far as the play-off humiliations, you are right on with those.

Very true....but that just shows that the defense was that bad....Rock Alexander wasn't even back up material. Depth has always been an issue.

Watchthemiddle
03-29-2009, 09:25 PM
So having Roc Alexander as your starting CB against the Colts in the playoffs is good? Getting blown out consistently in the playoffs (when it really counts) doesn't show a glaring weakness in defense? We were a good in season team who failed to show up and/or had all the real holes shown when the big stuff was on the line.

I love winning and it's great....but having 1 playoff win while having made it to the playoffs consistently under Shanny was his biggest downfall. When was the last time we had a solid team on ALL sides of the ball? Honestly....it was back during the 2 Super Bowl years....and that was how many years ago?

2005 AFCCG 13-3 Record. But I get your point otherwise

Lonestar
03-29-2009, 09:31 PM
2005 AFCCG 13-3 Record. But I get your point otherwise



But remember when Jake lost that game all by himself ;).. no one wanted to forget it..

but today when a QB loses a game it is the defenses fault..

Northman
03-29-2009, 09:35 PM
But remember when Jake lost that game all by himself ;).. no one wanted to forget it..

but today when a QB loses a game it is the defenses fault..

He didnt lose that game by himself but he was a big contributor with 4 turnovers. Of course, he actually had a better surrounding team and still stunk it up w/ 4 turnovers but yea, he wasnt alone.

LoyalSoldier
03-29-2009, 09:37 PM
But remember when Jake lost that game all by himself ;).. no one wanted to forget it..

but today when a QB loses a game it is the defenses fault..

I called that game a complete team meltdown. Our O-line let the Steelers have a field day on Plummer and then Plummer freaked out and started playing like crap. Our defense blitzed and blitzed and blitzed again only to fail every time.

Lonestar
03-29-2009, 09:38 PM
He didnt lose that game by himself but he was a big contributor with 4 turnovers. Of course, he actually had a better surrounding team and still stunk it up w/ 4 turnovers but yea, he wasnt alone.


but but but he was trying to bail out the Defense that could not stop Ben all day (think he set a playoff record with #rd and long pass completions) and get the win



the irony of it all Jake was a bum and jay is the Saviour..:salute:

Northman
03-29-2009, 09:45 PM
but but but he was trying to bail out the Defense that could not stop Ben all day (think he set a playoff record with #rd and long pass completions) and get the win



the irony of it all Jake was a bum and jay is the Saviour..:salute:


I dont know if Josh is the savior but yea i agree, Jake was a bum. :salute:

Lonestar
03-29-2009, 09:50 PM
I dont know if Josh is the savior but yea i agree, Jake was a bum. :salute:

wow thanks for bringing that up it should have been

the irony of it all Jake was a bum and jay is the Saviour.. :salute::

corrected now.. whew huge mistake must be getting senile..:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Northman
03-29-2009, 09:50 PM
wow thanks for bringing that up it should have been

the irony of it all Jake was a bum and jay is the Saviour..:salute:

corrected now.. whew huge mistake must be getting senile..:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Hence why i quoted it right away. :lol:

Lonestar
03-29-2009, 09:51 PM
Hence why i quoted it right away. :lol:


no doubt about it you have always covered my six..:salute:

Watchthemiddle
03-29-2009, 10:59 PM
but but but he was trying to bail out the Defense that could not stop Ben all day (think he set a playoff record with #rd and long pass completions) and get the win



the irony of it all Jake was a bum and jay is the Saviour..:salute:

Like I have said before.....my my my how the tables have turned.

The same people that wanted to bash Jake for going 13-3 and getting beat up in that AFCCG and put it ALL on him, are now the same people who want to say its ALL on the defense and not Jay. My my my how the tables have turned.

WARHORSE
03-29-2009, 11:26 PM
Your insane.





It gets better.

He knows lots of things regular stupid people dont know.



The answer to the WHOLE thing...........youknow.....McSleepwiththeenemy tryin to trade Cutler for the 14.7 million dollar man............is to follow the money.


Thats the real cusp of the problem.



Youre(most others) just too dumb to know it.


(and insane people BTW never admit it. They consider themselves logical)

Elevation inc
03-30-2009, 02:45 AM
But remember when Jake lost that game all by himself ;).. no one wanted to forget it..

but today when a QB loses a game it is the defenses fault..

well thats because our 2005 defense wasnt ranked 28 or higher 2 years straight.....in fact we were tops in scoring defense most of the year and even the follwoing year till injuries started derailing the defense and shanny got ansty with coyer not being able to adjust.....


today it is the defense fault when they give up over 30 points 16 plus times

Elevation inc
03-30-2009, 02:48 AM
Like I have said before.....my my my how the tables have turned.

The same people that wanted to bash Jake for going 13-3 and getting beat up in that AFCCG and put it ALL on him, are now the same people who want to say its ALL on the defense and not Jay. My my my how the tables have turned.


jake tossed 4 turnovers in the AFC title game and they were blatantly stupid....but darrent williams and john lynch as well as the secondary and coyers inability to adjust were big reasons we couldnt overcome that loss, as well as a run game that ran out of steam.....


jake does deserve heat for that loss, as does cutler for his mistakes. But people are really thinking twisted if they belive we would be better off without cutler.......they guy is a 2 year starter and both years denver has had the worst defense in a 2 year stretch in what the last 25 years if not more?????


jake didnt have to overcpme that.....

Lonestar
03-30-2009, 03:29 AM
well thats because our 2005 defense wasnt ranked 28 or higher 2 years straight.....in fact we were tops in scoring defense most of the year and even the follwoing year till injuries started derailing the defense and shanny got ansty with coyer not being able to adjust.....


today it is the defense fault when they give up over 30 points 16 plus times

does not matter where your defense is/was in a playoff game.. the defense failed in that game and it was all Jakes fault..

Today we lose a game and it is all the defenses fault..

you can't have it both ways.. well I guess the jaysters can..;)

Elevation inc
03-30-2009, 05:18 AM
does not matter where your defense is/was in a playoff game.. the defense failed in that game and it was all Jakes fault..

Today we lose a game and it is all the defenses fault..

you can't have it both ways.. well I guess the jaysters can..;)

i clarfied more later on, so quoting the post u did isnt entirely fair. personally i blame the defense as much as plummer for that 2005 AFC title match. Darrent williams was dominated and lynch couldnt cover the TE for crap. not to mention the rest of the secondary was MIA, the line couldnt get pressure and the run game that was strong all year was MIA as well.

so if you ask me plummer was just as much to blame as the defense, however that was 1 game not 16. cutler has issues and makes mistakes, but he also was facing goliath like tasks for 16 of the games where the defense gave up 30 points, keep in mind his 3 wins were comeback wins...since he is 3-10 in the situations where the defense gave up 30 points....


also i am not a plummer basher i saw the reason he was benched coming...but i dont argue against him doing good things for denver either.


perhaps you shouldnt lump me with the plummer bashers yet, as i have stated nothing here to that effect:D

Northman
03-30-2009, 10:55 AM
It gets better.

He knows lots of things regular stupid people dont know.



The answer to the WHOLE thing...........youknow.....McSleepwiththeenemy tryin to trade Cutler for the 14.7 million dollar man............is to follow the money.


Thats the real cusp of the problem.



Youre(most others) just too dumb to know it.


(and insane people BTW never admit it. They consider themselves logical)


And you can **** off. You want to make it personal? We can get personal.

BroncoJoe
03-30-2009, 11:01 AM
And you can **** off. You want to make it personal? We can get personal.

Dude, I think he was agreeing with your comment.

Northman
03-30-2009, 11:04 AM
Dude, I think he was agreeing with your comment.


Oh really? So calling me dumb wasnt a shot at me? If i misunderstood than my bad. But how its laid out says otherwise.

BroncoJoe
03-30-2009, 11:06 AM
Oh really? So calling me dumb wasnt a shot at me? If i misunderstood than my bad. But how its laid out says otherwise.

Only because your original comment was quoting someone else. I think he might have been jumping on your bandwagon and agreeing with you.

Not sure, but that's how I took it anyway.

Shazam!
03-30-2009, 11:10 AM
The answer to the WHOLE thing...........youknow.....McSleepwiththeenemy tryin to trade Cutler for the 14.7 million dollar man............is to follow the money.

War, if Cassel kills Denver for years to come, blossoms into a Pro Bowl QB or even worse for Denver, KC turns into a year-to-year contender, you will never live it down and look foolish with your outright hatred for this QB.

Gamechanger
03-30-2009, 11:16 AM
War, if Cassel kills Denver for years to come, blossoms into a Pro Bowl QB or even worse for Denver, KC turns into a year-to-year contender, you will never live it down and look foolish with your outright hatred for this QB.

Trust me, Cassel will flop

Shazam!
03-30-2009, 11:28 AM
That is based on nothing. He hasn't even taken a snap yet. I'm not saying he WILL be successful, but he can be.

TXBRONC
03-30-2009, 01:31 PM
The defensive cordinators didn't throw interceptions did they :D

True but you can count on one hand on how many the defense came up with.

broncophan
04-01-2009, 02:03 PM
So having Roc Alexander as your starting CB against the Colts in the playoffs is good? Getting blown out consistently in the playoffs (when it really counts) doesn't show a glaring weakness in defense? We were a good in season team who failed to show up and/or had all the real holes shown when the big stuff was on the line.

I love winning and it's great....but having 1 playoff win while having made it to the playoffs consistently under Shanny was his biggest downfall. When was the last time we had a solid team on ALL sides of the ball? Honestly....it was back during the 2 Super Bowl years....and that was how many years ago?

Well.........3 seasons ago......we went to the AFC championship game.
Don't get me wrong though......I know changes needed to be made........the days of the broncos being "a step ahead" of almost all other nfl franchises have been gone for sometime now.

MOtorboat
04-01-2009, 02:04 PM
Obviously, if said trade does go through...I hope he now doesn't win...

Just saying.

LoyalSoldier
04-01-2009, 02:38 PM
Obviously, if said trade does go through...I hope he now doesn't win...

Just saying.

Yea it would suck to be proven wrong when he is winning against the Broncos.

weazel
04-01-2009, 02:45 PM
If Cutler isn't a Bronco I couldnt care less if he was even in the league. I dont give a shit about most players outside the Broncos organization. Im a Broncos fan, not an NFL fan.

MOtorboat
04-01-2009, 02:48 PM
Yea it would suck to be proven wrong when he is winning against the Broncos.

I don't think anywhere I said he wasn't capable of winning football games. Only that he needed to do so...in a Broncos uniform...