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TXBRONC
03-25-2009, 11:07 AM
Is it possible that two journeyman nose tackles can adequately fill the position until such time as we find a stud nose tackle?

It also appears Dumervil will indeed get a chance to be a rush linebacker.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_11991317

Wanted: Big player to fill large NT gap
By Lindsay H. Jones
The Denver Post
Posted: 03/25/2009 12:30:00 AM MDT


DANA POINT, Calif. — The Broncos' roster has a glaring hole, and for once, this one has nothing to do with the quarterback.

Despite all the offseason changes Josh McDaniels and his new staff have made to the defense, the head coach said Tuesday the team still is weeks, if not months, away from knowing who will play nose tackle, the position that literally is the biggest piece in a 3-4 defensive puzzle.

"We're going to try multiple people there. It will be interesting," McDaniels said. "We're kind of excited to see who can or who couldn't and what we need to do with those guys. I think they all present different problems in their own right."

The leading candidate at this point is free-agent addition Ronnie Fields, who played in all 16 games last season as a reserve for San Francisco, though McDaniels said returning starter Marcus Thomas and former practice-squad player Matthias Askew also will get a look this spring. The team also signed free agent J'Vonne Parker, who, at 6-feet-4, 325 pounds is the closest to the physical ideal for a nose tackle.

McDaniels said his preference is for bulkier defensive linemen.

That's where the draft could come in.

"We want them to be big," McDaniels said. "One of the things, I've said it since I arrived in Denver, is we want to be tough, physical, and I think that's going to start up front on both sides of the ball. We're looking to add size and versatility, and we want to be able to stop the run."

McDaniels also confirmed that Elvis Dumervil and free-agent addition Darrell Reid will be used as hybrid defensive end-linebackers to rush the quarterback.

"We really like a lot of the abilities players like Elvis have because they're not always a clean matchup for someone on the other side of the ball," McDaniels said. "He's going to do both. He's going to have his hand on the ground some, and he's going to stand up some."

Beyond envisioning a new role for those two players, McDaniels said it may be weeks, if not months, before the rest of the defensive front takes shape.

"I think it's really important that we see where we finish this spring, and head into training camp in terms of our personnel," McDaniels said. "I don't think we can really sit there today and say, 'That looks perfect.' "

Lindsay H. Jones: 303-954-1262 or ljones@denverpost.com

Spiritguy
03-25-2009, 11:40 AM
DANA POINT, Calif. — The Broncos' roster has a glaring hole, and for once, this one has nothing to do with the quarterback.

Despite all the offseason changes Josh McDaniels and his new staff have made to the defense, the head coach said Tuesday the team still is weeks, if not months, away from knowing who will play nose tackle, the position that literally is the biggest piece in a 3-4 defensive puzzle.

"We're going to try multiple people there. It will be interesting," McDaniels said. "We're kind of excited to see who can or who couldn't and what we need to do with those guys. I think they all present different problems in their own right."

The leading candidate at this point is free-agent addition Ronnie Fields, who played in all 16 games last season as a reserve for San Francisco, though McDaniels said returning starter Marcus Thomas and former practice-squad player Matthias Askew also will get a look this spring. The team also signed free agent J'Vonne Parker, who, at 6-feet-4, 325 pounds is the closest to the physical ideal for a nose tackle.

McDaniels said his preference is for bulkier defensive linemen.

That's where the draft could come in.

"We want them to be big," McDaniels said. "One of the things, I've said it since I arrived in Denver, is we want to be tough, physical, and I think that's going to start up front on both sides of the ball. We're looking to add size and versatility, and we want to be able to stop the run."

McDaniels also confirmed that Elvis Dumervil and free-agent addition Darrell Reid will be used as hybrid defensive end-linebackers to rush the quarterback.

"We really like a lot of the abilities players like Elvis have because they're not always a clean matchup for someone on the other side of the ball," McDaniels said. "He's going to do both. He's going to have his hand on the ground some, and he's going to stand up some."

Beyond envisioning a new role for those two players, McDaniels said it may be weeks, if not months, before the rest of the defensive front takes shape.

"I think it's really important that we see where we finish this spring, and head into training camp in terms of our personnel," McDaniels said. "I don't think we can really sit there today and say, 'That looks perfect.' "

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_11991317

weazel
03-25-2009, 11:47 AM
use Cutler, his head is HUGE right now!

CoachChaz
03-25-2009, 11:48 AM
With as many teams as there are that are going to be using a 3-4, you may as well ask for a mermaid. The likelihood of getting one is equal to finding a good 3-4 NT

underrated29
03-25-2009, 12:24 PM
Nice. I am now going to change my little mock draft of how we draft. I think we knew raji was our #1, but i think the jags take him, but it seems that we want brace big time, and maybe even fili, or maybin? is he the other DT/NT?

DenBronx
03-25-2009, 12:36 PM
i knew the cutler bashers would hijack another thread...


on topic: i hope ron fields makes an impact here but where will thomas fit in? will he play de?

weazel
03-25-2009, 12:38 PM
Thomas is quasi de/lb. or useless to put it another way.

**edit**

oops, I was thinking Jarvis Moss...

broncofaninfla
03-25-2009, 12:40 PM
Of the guys we have on our roster, I don't think we have the guy who is going to be our starter at NT on opening day just yet. Eevn if we somehow get Raji, nothing says he will be ready to go. NT is a very demanding postion, our best bet is to get a proven vet and bring the young guys along as the season progresses.

broncofaninfla
03-25-2009, 12:41 PM
I wouldn't be surprsied if Thomas shows up with more weight packed on and tries to compete at NT. If not, I can see him being a viable DE in this scheme.

DenBronx
03-25-2009, 12:45 PM
Thomas is quasi de/lb. or useless to put it another way.

i cant imagine thomas playing lb. that would be like ryan harris trying to play rb.

weazel
03-25-2009, 12:47 PM
i cant imagine thomas playing lb. that would be like ryan harris trying to play rb.


yeah, I got confused... I was thinking Jarvis Moss for some reason.

bcbronc
03-25-2009, 12:49 PM
Who's this Parker guy? I completely missed that UFA signing. I don't know how, it's not like the Bronco-related media has been distracted or anything. :rolleyes:

Thomas as NT? I don't see it, but who knows. that whole 'size of the fight in the dog' thing. and I can't say I know anything about Askew either.

I wonder how Elvis will handle OLB. part of his effectiveness was because he was so low coming out of his 3-point stance it made it tough for big tackles to get their hands on him. coming out of a 2-point will negate much of that advantage. I also doubt he'll get the same jump on the ball he got from the DE position. but we'll see, he does have a bushell full of pass rush moves.

honz
03-25-2009, 01:02 PM
When did we sign this J'Vonne Parker guy? I've never even heard theat name.

bcbronc
03-25-2009, 01:05 PM
When did we sign this J'Vonne Parker guy? I've never even heard theat name.

someone needs to start a thread!

Spiritguy
03-25-2009, 01:08 PM
heres what the team site has to say about parker

J'Vonne Parker, Defensive Tackle

http://www.denverbroncos.com/resources/custom/Team/2009/parker_jvonne_mug09.jpg
Height: 6' 4"
Weight: 325 lbs.
College: Rutgers
Born: in
Acquired: Free Agent, 2009
Pro Year: 5th
Year with Broncos: 1st
NFL Games Played/Started: 11/0
Postseason: /

Parker is a fifth-year defensive tackle who joins the Broncos after seeing time on the rosters of Carolina (2008), Atlanta (2008), Baltimore (2007-08), Dallas (2006) and Cleveland (2005-06). He entered the NFL with the Browns in 2005 as a college free agent from Rutgers University.

Parker has appeared in 11 career regular-season games (0 starts), totaling six tackles (4 solo) and one fumble recovery.

In 2008, Parker saw his only game action in the Panthers' regular-season finale at New Orleans on Dec. 28. He began the year on Baltimore's practice squad and competed on Atlanta's practice squad before he was signed to Carolina's active roster on Dec. 23.

The defensive tackle appeared in a career-high six games during the 2006 season, seeing time in four games with the Browns after playing two games with the Cowboys. Parker finished that year with a personal-best five tackles (3 solo).

As a rookie with Cleveland in 2005, Parker began the season on the club's practice squad before appearing in its final four games.

Parker finished his collegiate career at Rutgers after playing two seasons at Howard University. He saw time in 11 games as a senior for the Scarlet Knights.

A third-team All-Essex County selection at Newark Tech High School in Newark, N.J., Parker was born on June 7, 1982.

Buff
03-25-2009, 01:13 PM
The more I look at our personnel, the more I think that Tyson Jackson makes the most sense at #12. We need help across the front 7, but we desperately need defensive linemen. He's not flashy, and he isn't a great pass rusher... But he's the type of huge mauler we need up front. Plus we could move him inside on passing downs if necessary.

Mark Schlereth was on the radio the other day and he said that the Broncos don't have a single d-lineman that would start for another team in the league. I pretty much agree with that assessment.

weazel
03-25-2009, 01:23 PM
heres what the team site has to say about parker

J'Vonne Parker, Defensive Tackle

http://www.denverbroncos.com/resources/custom/Team/2009/parker_jvonne_mug09.jpg
Height: 6' 4"
Weight: 325 lbs.
College: Rutgers
Born: in
Acquired: Free Agent, 2009
Pro Year: 5th
Year with Broncos: 1st
NFL Games Played/Started: 11/0
Postseason: /

Parker is a fifth-year defensive tackle who joins the Broncos after seeing time on the rosters of Carolina (2008), Atlanta (2008), Baltimore (2007-08), Dallas (2006) and Cleveland (2005-06). He entered the NFL with the Browns in 2005 as a college free agent from Rutgers University.

Parker has appeared in 11 career regular-season games (0 starts), totaling six tackles (4 solo) and one fumble recovery.

In 2008, Parker saw his only game action in the Panthers' regular-season finale at New Orleans on Dec. 28. He began the year on Baltimore's practice squad and competed on Atlanta's practice squad before he was signed to Carolina's active roster on Dec. 23.

The defensive tackle appeared in a career-high six games during the 2006 season, seeing time in four games with the Browns after playing two games with the Cowboys. Parker finished that year with a personal-best five tackles (3 solo).

As a rookie with Cleveland in 2005, Parker began the season on the club's practice squad before appearing in its final four games.

Parker finished his collegiate career at Rutgers after playing two seasons at Howard University. He saw time in 11 games as a senior for the Scarlet Knights.

A third-team All-Essex County selection at Newark Tech High School in Newark, N.J., Parker was born on June 7, 1982.


Looks like a game breaker!! :rolleyes:

CoachChaz
03-25-2009, 01:25 PM
He's there for competition and depth. That's all

weazel
03-25-2009, 01:27 PM
He's there for competition and depth. That's all

and maybe to grab Cutler some malt liqura'

getlynched47
03-25-2009, 02:11 PM
I wouldn't be surprsied if Thomas shows up with more weight packed on and tries to compete at NT. If not, I can see him being a viable DE in this scheme.

Marcus Thomas is a solid player. but i think that's because he's one of the athletic Defensive Tackles in the game. Bulking him up to play Nose Tackle would just defeat his amazing athleticism for a Defensive Tackle.

I think we'd be better off with Thomas and Peterson at Defensive End, and either Ron Fields or Raji/Brace at Nose Tackle.

J'vonne Parker is a camp body. He's been used more than Pamela Anderson:eek:

bcbronc
03-25-2009, 02:20 PM
Looks like a game breaker!! :rolleyes:

if nothing else, at least he's been in organizations with great dlines the past few years (Carolina, Baltimore). one, those teams know how to judge DL talent, and two, they know how to develop it.

but yeah, probably a warm body at the end of the rotation at best.

bcbronc
03-25-2009, 02:27 PM
It would be nice to get an earlier pick in the 2nd or a later 1st to try to address NT. I don't think Haji makes it out of the top 5, never mind fall to 12.

Shazam!
03-25-2009, 02:43 PM
McDaniels said his preference is for bulkier defensive linemen.

"We want them to be big. One of the things, I've said it since I arrived in Denver, is we want to be tough, physical, and I think that's going to start up front on both sides of the ball. We're looking to add size and versatility..."

I have been looking for this the last 15 or so years. The closest thing Denver has had to a prototypical NT was Ted Washington in 1994 and the brief stay of an atiquated Chester McGlockton.

dogfish
03-25-2009, 02:47 PM
"We're going to try multiple people there. It will be interesting," McDaniels said. "We're kind of excited to see who can or who couldn't and what we need to do with those guys. I think they all present different problems in their own right."

translation: "yea, we don't have a starting nosetackle right now, so your guess is as good as mine". . . .





Mark Schlereth was on the radio the other day and he said that the Broncos don't have a single d-lineman that would start for another team in the league. I pretty much agree with that assessment.



gee, that sounds familiar, doesn't it?

weazel
03-25-2009, 02:48 PM
if nothing else, at least he's been in organizations with great dlines the past few years (Carolina, Baltimore). one, those teams know how to judge DL talent, and two, they know how to develop it.

but yeah, probably a warm body at the end of the rotation at best.

maybe they'll poke him with a stick to see if he's still alive, once in a while

West
03-25-2009, 05:15 PM
Pick #12 would be a whole lot easier if Terrence Cody entered the draft. :yardog:

West
03-25-2009, 05:22 PM
Posted this in another thread..


Pick #12 would be a whole lot easier if Terrence Cody had entered the draft. :yardog:

bullis26
03-25-2009, 05:28 PM
Nice. I am now going to change my little mock draft of how we draft. I think we knew raji was our #1, but i think the jags take him, but it seems that we want brace big time, and maybe even fili, or maybin? is he the other DT/NT?

maybin a NT? ummm.... what? NO he will never in his lifetime gain enough weight to be a NT...Fili possibly could but end is where hes best suited

and brace in the 1st is a huge reach, dont want him, second wouldnt mind it tho, but id prefer not to take the guy that played second fiddle to raji

underrated29
03-25-2009, 05:32 PM
and brace in the 1st is a huge reach, i



Nahnah not in the first. see my little sig for my thoughts

bullis26
03-25-2009, 05:34 PM
Nahnah not in the first. see my little sig for my thoughts

one problem with your sig....the jets draft at 17, the texans got 15and they wont trade up

and yes brace would be a reach in the 1st

Greatspirits
03-25-2009, 05:36 PM
I still say take Raji and #12! He's about as wide as two of our lineman we had last year!!

TXBRONC
03-25-2009, 05:47 PM
I still say take Raji and #12! He's about as wide as two of our lineman we had last year!!

There is little chance Raji falls all the way to 12. However, if he falls out to 8 and if McDaniels is willing to give up the picks necessary we might be able to trade to get him.

bullis26
03-25-2009, 05:57 PM
There is little chance Raji falls all the way to 12. However, if he falls out to 8 and if McDaniels is willing to give up the picks necessary we might be able to trade to get him.

i think ron fields will be alright no0t great but alright..... i dont want to lose the picks id rather have taylor in the later rounds than lose picks and get raji

I'd love to get Mauluga(as you all know)

bcbronc
03-25-2009, 06:06 PM
There is little chance Raji falls all the way to 12. However, if he falls out to 8 and if McDaniels is willing to give up the picks necessary we might be able to trade to get him.

imo we need too many pieces to give up the additional picks needed. I'm saying this without referencing the value chart though, so who knows.

Dean
03-25-2009, 06:34 PM
With as many teams as there are that are going to be using a 3-4, you may as well ask for a mermaid. The likelihood of getting one is equal to finding a good 3-4 NT


Give a second round pick for Gabe Watson. The gaping hole in the center of our defense, nose tackle, would be filled.

bullis26
03-25-2009, 07:13 PM
Give a second round pick for Gabe Watson. The gaping hole in the center of our defense, nose tackle, would be filled.

gabe watson isnt worth a second rounder

Buff
03-25-2009, 07:34 PM
gee, that sounds familiar, doesn't it?

Did you say the same thing?

I know we've been beating the D-lineman drum for years now... But I hadn't heard anyone actually come out and say there isn't a guy worthy of being a starter anywhere else on this team.

Dean
03-25-2009, 08:02 PM
gabe watson isnt worth a second rounder

Nose is the most important position in running a 3-4 defense whether it is a 1 gap or a 2 gap 3-4. It better be filled with a player that without a doubt can do the job. If he can't draw the double teams, the LBs will spend the entire game tied up with O-linemen and the QB stepping up into the pocket and avoiding the pass rush.

Even if I don't play the drafting a defensive lineman is very hit and miss card. I think that you have an opportunity to actually make a positive contribution. Your post doesn't make an arguement to in any way support "Gabe Watson isn't worth a second rounder. So here is your chance to include something of value in this thread. Tell me what second rounder that you are sure will be better than he did this year for Arizona?

:whoo: I will breathlessly await your reply.

bullis26
03-25-2009, 08:30 PM
Nose is the most important position in running a 3-4 defense whether it is a 1 gap or a 2 gap 3-4. It better be filled with a player that without a doubt can do the job. If he can't draw the double teams, the LBs will spend the entire game tied up with O-linemen and the QB stepping up into the pocket and avoiding the pass rush.

Even if I don't play the drafting a defensive lineman is very hit and miss card. I think that you have an opportunity to actually make a positive contribution. Your post doesn't make an arguement to in any way support "Gabe Watson isn't worth a second rounder. So here is your chance to include something of value in this thread. Tell me what second rounder that you are sure will be better than he did this year for Arizona?

:whoo: I will breathlessly await your reply.

in this draft? there is no player worth a second at NT....but terrance taylor in the 4th(just to make sure we get him) would be good....NT dont always get the stats and ive seen ron fields play seldom, he didnt dominate but he did draw the double team, a lot of the time he didnt even start in SF but i think terrance taylor could be great....but since im guessing your going by the stats watson had 20 tackles and 1 sack and played in 11 games
Fields had 19 tackles and played in 16 games

Fields has more experience..... and plays more, even with watson having better stats in less time we didnt have to give anything for him except a little money

20 tackles and 1 sack with 0 starts the past year and only 2 sacks in his 3 year career does not say 2nd rd pick to me

Terrance Taylor will be better than gabe watson, people rave about watsons strength...well taylor got up what 38 reps or something at the combine....and have you seen taylor play? im suprised we can get him in the 4th

dogfish
03-25-2009, 08:31 PM
Did you say the same thing?

I know we've been beating the D-lineman drum for years now... But I hadn't heard anyone actually come out and say there isn't a guy worthy of being a starter anywhere else on this team.

man, i've been bitching about our D-line forever. . . and it never gets any better-- same shit, different year. . . . that's what i meant. . .




gabe watson isnt worth a second rounder

i think we'll take dean's opinion over yours. . . . ;)

dogfish
03-25-2009, 08:32 PM
imo we need too many pieces to give up the additional picks needed. I'm saying this without referencing the value chart though, so who knows.


unless he stabs somebody between now and draft day, it's a moot discussion anyways. . . .

bullis26
03-25-2009, 08:34 PM
man, i've been bitching about our D-line forever. . . and it never gets any better-- same shit, different year. . . . that's what i meant. . .





i think we'll take dean's opinion over yours. . . . ;)

haha thats why your not a GM.... why give a second rd pick for somebody that has done very little in this league, thats clearly not worth a second rounder

getlynched47
03-25-2009, 08:36 PM
haha thats why your not a GM.... why give a second rd pick for somebody that has done very little in this league, thats clearly not worth a second rounder

I wonder why the Texans gave up so much for Matt Schaub, who wasnt a starter :rolleyes:

Gabe Watson has been excellent in the minimum playing time he has had.

I' glad that you aren't the GM

dogfish
03-25-2009, 08:41 PM
haha thats why your not a GM.... why give a second rd pick for somebody that has done very little in this league, thats clearly not worth a second rounder



yea. . . . if only i had access to NFL.com like you, then maybe i could be qualified. . . .


:rofl:

bullis26
03-25-2009, 08:49 PM
I wonder why the Texans gave up so much for Matt Schaub, who wasnt a starter :rolleyes:

Gabe Watson has been excellent in the minimum playing time he has had.

I' glad that you aren't the GM

and look how great shaub has been

Shaubs hurt about half the year

bullis26
03-25-2009, 08:50 PM
yea. . . . if only i had access to NFL.com like you, then maybe i could be qualified. . . .


:rofl:

i was giving you stats.....people wanted to know why i wouldnt give up a second rder i gave more than just stats but i also did include them

getlynched47
03-25-2009, 08:52 PM
and look how great shaub has been

Shaubs hurt about half the year

Schaub has been great when he is healthy. Just because he has had bad injury luck the past two seasons, it doesnt mean that he's a bad player :rolleyes:

according to your logic, I guess Champ Bailey is a bad player since he was injured two years ago with a hammy (didnt miss significant time though) and a bunch of games this year with the groin injury :rolleyes:

bullis26
03-25-2009, 08:54 PM
Schaub has been great when he is healthy. Just because he has had bad injury luck the past two seasons, it doesnt mean that he's a bad player :rolleyes:

according to your logic, I guess Champ Bailey is a bad player since he was injured two years ago with a hammy (didnt miss significant time though) and a bunch of games this year with the groin injury :rolleyes:

champ not the player he used to be thats for sure

And has shaub done enough for what the falcons got for him? NO!

Shaub when healthy hasnt been a top 12 QB

getlynched47
03-25-2009, 08:57 PM
champ not the player he used to be thats for sure

And has shaub done enough for what the falcons got for him? NO!

Shaub when healthy hasnt been a top 12 QB

We're talking about giving up a 2nd round pick for a Nose Tackle that we desperately need. The odds of us drafting a Nose Tackle early and him contributing immediately are slim to non. Watson could contribute immediately.

Oh in addition to your logic, i guess Bob Sanders suck also because he's often injured :rolleyes:

West
03-25-2009, 09:32 PM
i was giving you stats.....people wanted to know why i wouldnt give up a second rder i gave more than just stats but i also did include them

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


Do you not know shyt about football?

A NT isn't suppose to have impressive stats. A NT is suppose to clog up holes with his fatass and force teams to double team him.


Wow...

West
03-25-2009, 09:36 PM
Nose is the most important position in running a 3-4 defense whether it is a 1 gap or a 2 gap 3-4. It better be filled with a player that without a doubt can do the job. If he can't draw the double teams, the LBs will spend the entire game tied up with O-linemen and the QB stepping up into the pocket and avoiding the pass rush.
.

This. Well said, Dean.

slim
03-25-2009, 09:47 PM
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


Do you not know shyt about football?

A NT isn't suppose to have impressive stats. A NT is suppose to clog up holes with his fatass and force teams to double team him.


Wow...

She is a raiders fan, what do you expect?

Dean
03-25-2009, 09:59 PM
in this draft? there is no player worth a second at NT....but terrance taylor in the 4th(just to make sure we get him) would be good....NT dont always get the stats and ive seen ron fields play seldom, he didnt dominate but he did draw the double team, a lot of the time he didnt even start in SF but i think terrance taylor could be great....but since im guessing your going by the stats watson had 20 tackles and 1 sack and played in 11 games
Fields had 19 tackles and played in 16 games

Fields has more experience..... and plays more, even with watson having better stats in less time we didnt have to give anything for him except a little money

20 tackles and 1 sack with 0 starts the past year and only 2 sacks in his 3 year career does not say 2nd rd pick to me

Terrance Taylor will be better than gabe watson, people rave about watsons strength...well taylor got up what 38 reps or something at the combine....and have you seen taylor play? im suprised we can get him in the 4th

Terrance Taylor is a long shot. At 6'1/8" and 311 (Michigan's Pro days) he is
too short to play nose. At the Shrine Bowl he would get engulffed and exposed by offensive linemen. I remember seeing him knocked completely down twice.

After the game I looked to see what the draft gurus thought about him. Many draft analysts made comments about him continually being in poor shape.

He had some quicks off the ball and upper body strength without long arms. I'll take Watson in a heartbeat. The 3-4 nose is too important to make that gamble on.

West
03-25-2009, 10:01 PM
She is a raiders fan, what do you expect?

:lol::lol::lol:

Bullis is a 'she' AND Raider fan? :lol:



Figures.

Hobe
03-25-2009, 10:17 PM
Oh, boy! It looks like Nose Tackle by committee...:grouphug:

bullis26
03-25-2009, 10:19 PM
Terrance Taylor is a long shot. At 6'1/8" and 311 (Michigan's Pro days) he is
too short to play nose. At the Shrine Bowl he would get engulffed and exposed by offensive linemen. I remember seeing him knocked completely down twice.

After the game I looked to see what the draft gurus thought about him. Many draft analysts made comments about him continually being in poor shape.

He had some quicks off the ball and upper body strength without long arms. I'll take Watson in a heartbeat. The 3-4 nose is too important to make that gamble on.

BJ RAJI is only 6"2

bullis26
03-25-2009, 10:20 PM
:lol::lol::lol:

Bullis is a 'she' AND Raider fan? :lol:



Figures.

yep you know me alright

EMB6903
03-25-2009, 10:20 PM
Terrance Taylor is a long shot. At 6'1/8" and 311 (Michigan's Pro days) he is
too short to play nose. At the Shrine Bowl he would get engulffed and exposed by offensive linemen. I remember seeing him knocked completely down twice.

After the game I looked to see what the draft gurus thought about him. Many draft analysts made comments about him continually being in poor shape.

He had some quicks off the ball and upper body strength without long arms. I'll take Watson in a heartbeat. The 3-4 nose is too important to make that gamble on.

You are completely wrong, being short helps as a nose tackle, you need a ton of leverage to play this position, and being 6ft helps

Ive seen Terrence play... I think he could easily play as a 2 gap DT

bullis26
03-25-2009, 10:20 PM
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


Do you not know shyt about football?

A NT isn't suppose to have impressive stats. A NT is suppose to clog up holes with his fatass and force teams to double team him.


Wow...

read my earlier post i said NT arent about stats, but since a lot of people on this website go by stats here ya go

I love when people dont get the full story but still comment

bullis26
03-25-2009, 10:22 PM
We're talking about giving up a 2nd round pick for a Nose Tackle that we desperately need. The odds of us drafting a Nose Tackle early and him contributing immediately are slim to non. Watson could contribute immediately.

Oh in addition to your logic, i guess Bob Sanders suck also because he's often injured :rolleyes:

bob sanders has production

But QB's need to be more durable than that...Bob Sanders is a top SS in the league when healthy

The same cannot be said about shaub

Dean
03-25-2009, 10:28 PM
BJ RAJI is only 6"2

Yes but he is 330 pounds and faster than Taylor. Raji actually tore it up at the Senior Bowl.


You are completely wrong, being short helps as a nose tackle, you need a ton of leverage to play this position, and being 6ft helps

Ive seen Terrence play... I think he could easily play as a 2 gap DT

If you have short arms the offense continually gets into your body and at best neutralizes you and at worst completely owns you.

I have to admit that I only saw him play at the Shrine Bowl but he looked terrible. That might be an overstatement, but he didn't look like an NFL ready player.

bullis26
03-25-2009, 10:30 PM
Yes but he is 330 pounds and faster than Taylor. Raji actually tore it up at the Senior Bowl.



If you have short arms the offense continually gets into your body and at best neutralizes you and at worst completely owns you.

I have to admit that I only saw him play at the Shrine Bowl but he looked terrible. That might be an overstatement, but he didn't look like an NFL ready player.

Terrence Taylor is MUCH MUCH stronger than Raji

He plays bigger than he is

horsepig
03-25-2009, 10:47 PM
Coach, you don't have to have Wilfork to win, just like you don't have to have Brady or LT. Remember Greg Kragen? How many SB's did that guy anchor our 34?

horsepig
03-25-2009, 10:53 PM
There are guys out there. Find a guy that REALLY wants to play! Is Casey Weigman the prototypical all-pro center-hell no! He's too old, small, slow and his O-lines are always among the best. The guy is a PLAYER!

West
03-25-2009, 11:18 PM
read my earlier post i said NT arent about stats, but since a lot of people on this website go by stats here ya go

I love when people dont get the full story but still comment

I saw your post. If you trully believed that, you wouldn't have posted nonsense stats about a NT. You would have laughed at all the idiots.

But we're laughing at you. :lol::lol:



:coffee:

bullis26
03-25-2009, 11:24 PM
I saw your post. If you trully believed that, you wouldn't have posted nonsense stats about a NT. You would have laughed at all the idiots.

But we're laughing at you. :lol::lol:



:coffee:

just to prove to the idiots
yeah i truly believe that, if i didnt i wouldve posted it
but you know everything about how i think right?

getlynched47
03-25-2009, 11:24 PM
I saw your post. If you trully believed that, you wouldn't have posted nonsense stats about a NT. You would have laughed at all the idiots.

But we're laughing at you. :lol::lol:



:coffee:

i love your sig.

sneakers
03-25-2009, 11:30 PM
DANA POINT, Calif. — The Broncos' roster has a glaring hole, and for once, this one has nothing to do with the quarterback.

Despite all the offseason changes Josh McDaniels and his new staff have made to the defense, the head coach said Tuesday the team still is weeks, if not months, away from knowing who will play nose tackle, the position that literally is the biggest piece in a 3-4 defensive puzzle.

"We're going to try multiple people there. It will be interesting," McDaniels said. "We're kind of excited to see who can or who couldn't and what we need to do with those guys. I think they all present different problems in their own right."

The leading candidate at this point is free-agent addition Ronnie Fields, who played in all 16 games last season as a reserve for San Francisco, though McDaniels said returning starter Marcus Thomas and former practice-squad player Matthias Askew also will get a look this spring. The team also signed free agent J'Vonne Parker, who, at 6-feet-4, 325 pounds is the closest to the physical ideal for a nose tackle.

McDaniels said his preference is for bulkier defensive linemen.

That's where the draft could come in.

"We want them to be big," McDaniels said. "One of the things, I've said it since I arrived in Denver, is we want to be tough, physical, and I think that's going to start up front on both sides of the ball. We're looking to add size and versatility, and we want to be able to stop the run."

McDaniels also confirmed that Elvis Dumervil and free-agent addition Darrell Reid will be used as hybrid defensive end-linebackers to rush the quarterback.

"We really like a lot of the abilities players like Elvis have because they're not always a clean matchup for someone on the other side of the ball," McDaniels said. "He's going to do both. He's going to have his hand on the ground some, and he's going to stand up some."

Beyond envisioning a new role for those two players, McDaniels said it may be weeks, if not months, before the rest of the defensive front takes shape.

"I think it's really important that we see where we finish this spring, and head into training camp in terms of our personnel," McDaniels said. "I don't think we can really sit there today and say, 'That looks perfect.' "

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_11991317


I know just the guy:

http://keep2.sjfc.edu/class/bnapoli/mste431/swain/inuit/walrus.jpg

West
03-25-2009, 11:31 PM
just to prove to the idiots
yeah i truly believe that, if i didnt i wouldve posted it
but you know everything about how i think right?

Yes.

bullis26
03-25-2009, 11:31 PM
I know just the guy:

http://keep2.sjfc.edu/class/bnapoli/mste431/swain/inuit/walrus.jpg

yeah but whats his 40?

bullis26
03-25-2009, 11:32 PM
Yes.

haha just like im a raiders fan right buddy?

Just because i recognize talent (Nnandi Asomugha) doesnt mean im a raiders fan....Sry

Lonestar
03-26-2009, 03:48 AM
You are completely wrong, being short helps as a nose tackle, you need a ton of leverage to play this position, and being 6ft helps

Ive seen Terrence play... I think he could easily play as a 2 gap DT


Every good to great NT a tend to be short and stout that I can recall.. just as doom is able to get under the OT pads and make moves so does being a NT..

Now whether this guy is any good I have no idea, but most NT can't be moved due to being BIG and massive.. IIRC curly culp was right at 6' maybe shorter.. he was the begining of the NT's..

Lonestar
03-26-2009, 03:50 AM
yeah but whats his 40?

4.2 hours..

Dean
03-26-2009, 06:37 AM
Coach, you don't have to have Wilfork to win, just like you don't have to have Brady or LT. Remember Greg Kragen? How many SB's did that guy anchor our 34?


The average O-lineman then was 270- to 290 pounds. We don't live in those time any more. Even in high school, 300 pounders are common.

JR you were around to know that Culp wasn't playing against today's 300 to 350 pound linemen. As a nose, there isn't room to do much in the way of moves. Playing nose is not comparable to playing D-end.

TXBRONC
03-26-2009, 09:07 AM
Yes but he is 330 pounds and faster than Taylor. Raji actually tore it up at the Senior Bowl.



If you have short arms the offense continually gets into your body and at best neutralizes you and at worst completely owns you.

I have to admit that I only saw him play at the Shrine Bowl but he looked terrible. That might be an overstatement, but he didn't look like an NFL ready player.

In practice Raji looked terrific but they may have been because it was one on one drills where he could use his quickness to beat offensive tackles. And coarse they ran a 4-3 defense at the Senior Bowl so it's hard to say how he would do anchoring a 3-4. His former teammate Ron Brace is tall and has longer reach but he's not nearly as athletic as Raji.

TXBRONC
03-26-2009, 09:10 AM
i think ron fields will be alright no0t great but alright..... i dont want to lose the picks id rather have taylor in the later rounds than lose picks and get raji

I'd love to get Mauluga(as you all know)

If not mistaken Fields was a back up in San Francisco but he's not someone you want anchoring the middle of a 3-4 full time.

TXBRONC
03-26-2009, 09:24 AM
The average O-lineman then was 270- to 290 pounds. We don't live in those time any more. Even in high school, 300 pounders are common.

JR you were around to know that Culp wasn't playing against today's 300 to 350 pound linemen. As a nose, there isn't room to do much in the way of moves. Playing nose is not comparable to playing D-end.

The best nose tackle in pro footall in the '70s was Rubin Carter and he was 6'0" and 256 lbs. But he wasn't going up against 300 plus pound offensive linemen.

I think a short (as in height) nose tackle could make it in the NFL but would have to be squaty 310-315 lbs with reach like Elvis Dumervils to have chance.

Elevation inc
03-26-2009, 10:04 AM
BJ raji- 6 ft 1, 330 lbs....(top ten pick)
Ron Brace-6 ft 3, 330lbs....(late 1st-2nd rd pick)
Chris Baker- 6 ft 2, 326 lbs....(3rd rd pick)
Dorrell Scott- 6 ft 3, 312 lbs....(late 3rd rd pick)
Samme Lee Hill- 6 ft 4, 329 lbs....(3-4th rd pick)
Terrence Taylor- 6 ft 0, 306 lbs.....(4th rd pick)
Terrance Knighton- 6 ft 3, 321 lbs....(4-5th rd pick)
Roy Miller- 6 ft 1, 310 lbs.....(5th rd pick)
Nader Abdallah- 6 ft 5, 310 lbs....(6th rd pick)
Myron Pryor- 6 ft 0, 319 lbs......(6th rd pick)
Antonio Dixon- 6 ft 3, 328 lbs....(7th rd-FA)
Marlon Favorite- 6 ft 1, 314 lbs....(7th rd-FA)
Khalif Mitchell- 6 ft 5, 318 lbs....(7th rd-FA)



these are all possible big bodies we could target in the draft.....

EMB6903
03-26-2009, 12:44 PM
The best nose tackle in pro footall in the '70s was Rubin Carter and he was 6'0" and 256 lbs. But he wasn't going up against 300 plus pound offensive linemen.

I think a short (as in height) nose tackle could make it in the NFL but would have to be squaty 310-315 lbs with reach like Elvis Dumervils to have chance.

Best NT in the league is only 6'1 with very stubby arms (casey Hampton)

Wilfork is pretty short too.....

Requiem / The Dagda
03-26-2009, 01:58 PM
Being short helps them with leverage. Common sense.

Elevation inc
03-26-2009, 02:03 PM
whats suprising is a before this year terrence taylor was considered a first rd pick....then michigan blew and its like people forgot about him.....he is 6 ft 0 and weighs 306, and people say all the time he isnt big enough...it cracks me up....


one of the biggest reasons why i feel he will succede is becasue of his wrestling background which is excellent. Leverage and hand use is key in wrestling. those skills translate very well to to the 2 gap NT role and his abilities should help him adjust a bit quicker than some of the later rd picks....

Elevation inc
03-26-2009, 02:12 PM
size is somewhat important, but leverage is much more important than how much a NT weighs or how tall they are.....

Lonestar
03-26-2009, 02:22 PM
My preference is someone about 6'-6'2" starting at 330 going to 360.. for NT or someone that can grow into those specs..

Some like Powell that flat could not be moved in college.. was a rock solid anchor.. and does not allow runs up the middle..

Whether he can do this in the pros I do not know.. hopefully he or someone can be found to do this..

bcbronc
03-26-2009, 03:23 PM
My preference is someone about 6'-6'2" starting at 330 going to 360.. for NT or someone that can grow into those specs..

Some like Powell that flat could not be moved in college.. was a rock solid anchor.. and does not allow runs up the middle..

Whether he can do this in the pros I do not know.. hopefully he or someone can be found to do this..

360?? that's too big imo. no way a guy 360 lbs will have the stamina to be taking on double teams play in, play out. I don't care how much beef you're packing, if you're gassed you're not going to be an effective NT.

but I do agree that shorter is preferable to taller. anything over 6' 2" you're going to lose some effectiveness, generally speaking. I wouldn't carve that in stone though.

Lonestar
03-26-2009, 03:40 PM
360?? that's too big imo. no way a guy 360 lbs will have the stamina to be taking on double teams play in, play out. I don't care how much beef you're packing, if you're gassed you're not going to be an effective NT.

but I do agree that shorter is preferable to taller. anything over 6' 2" you're going to lose some effectiveness, generally speaking. I wouldn't carve that in stone though.

I said 330-360 and if we get a couple of them to spell each other well it could be great.. BTW many of the great NT are on the field 3 and then they are catching O2 on the sidelines cause the defense has gotten the ball back on a punt or turn over..

I look forward to a lot of 3 and outs down the road mixed in with a few 5-6 and outs..

Your correct if we have a defense like the past 2-6 years bend but don't break 8-16 play drives a biggie guy would die in DEN..

Bill Devaroe
03-26-2009, 03:47 PM
We have all we need with Kenny Peterson. Spend that # 12 on someplace that we really need it. Eiather Malcom Jenkins at CB or Michael Crabtree,

The D Line is fine now that we have reduced it to 3 players. Line backer will be fine once boss is back. Gimmie some O baby! Trade cutler for Lemon and a draft pick and trade those picks to get crabtree.

underrated29
03-26-2009, 03:53 PM
O baby.
























Or

O lordy.:rolleyes:

dogfish
03-26-2009, 04:01 PM
360?? that's too big imo. no way a guy 360 lbs will have the stamina to be taking on double teams play in, play out. I don't care how much beef you're packing, if you're gassed you're not going to be an effective NT.

but I do agree that shorter is preferable to taller. anything over 6' 2" you're going to lose some effectiveness, generally speaking. I wouldn't carve that in stone though.

*cough*krisjenkins*cough*



uhhh, excuse me. . . .

bcbronc
03-26-2009, 04:54 PM
*cough*krisjenkins*cough*



uhhh, excuse me. . . .

all right smarty pants, name one more guy near that size that can play more than 30% of a teams snaps. I'm sure there are a couple more, but they're few and far between.

my point was having expectations of 330-360 is a bit too enthusiastic imo. I'd be happy with a guy 320-335, and think we'd have a better shot of finding that.

but yeah, we should have let the Jets keep DRob and picked up Jenkins instead. ;)

EMB6903
03-26-2009, 04:56 PM
360?? that's too big imo. no way a guy 360 lbs will have the stamina to be taking on double teams play in, play out. I don't care how much beef you're packing, if you're gassed you're not going to be an effective NT.

but I do agree that shorter is preferable to taller. anything over 6' 2" you're going to lose some effectiveness, generally speaking. I wouldn't carve that in stone though.

Terrence Cody from Alabama was once wieghed in over 400 lbs, hes around 365 and is a monster against the run... Most likely a top 20 pick next year.

Dean
03-26-2009, 06:26 PM
Best NT in the league is only 6'1 with very stubby arms (casey Hampton)

Wilfork is pretty short too.....

I agree Casey is one of the best nose tackles in the league and he is an anomaly at 6'1" and change weighing in at 315 pounds.

Here are the other four that I consider as good or better than Casey. San Diego's Jamal Williams ( 6'3" and 348), Shaun Rodgers (6'4" and 350), Kevin Williams (6'5" and 325), and John Henderson (6'7" and 335).


:werd:

P.S. As Dog mentioned, Kris Jenkins is 6'4" 349. In today's game, you don't see many short armed nose tackles.

dogfish
03-26-2009, 06:52 PM
I agree Casey is one of the best nose tackles in the league and he is an anomaly at 6'1" and change weighing in at 315 pounds.

Here are the other four that I consider as good or better than Casey. San Diego's Jamal Williams ( 6'3" and 348), Shaun Rodgers (6'4" and 350), Kevin Williams (6'5" and 325), and John Henderson (6'7" and 335).


:werd:


i saw an interview with casey earlier this year, and he admitted that he was closer to 330 than 315. . . and let's not forget haloti ngata, 6'4" 345-- IMO, he's about as good as any interior lineman in the game right now. . . beast! there may be a few smaller guys that can get it done, but when everything else is equal, bigger is definitely better at the nose. . . . ted washington was the prototypical modren-era nosetackle, and he was 6'5" and finished his career at 375. . . . :shocked:


and BC, FTR i don't necessarily want a guy that big either-- the 330 range is fine. . .

EMB6903
03-26-2009, 06:58 PM
I agree Casey is one of the best nose tackles in the league and he is an anomaly at 6'1" and change weighing in at 315 pounds.

Here are the other four that I consider as good or better than Casey. San Diego's Jamal Williams ( 6'3" and 348), Shaun Rodgers (6'4" and 350), Kevin Williams (6'5" and 325), and John Henderson (6'7" and 335).


:werd:

Kevin Williams and John Henderson dont play 2 gap schemes though, but Im not saying you cant be tall to play the position, just that height really doesnt matter when being an interior defensive lineman esspecially a NT

I like Terrence over Brace actually... Hes around 310 right now but could easily add 10-15 pounds to that body.

Denver27og
03-26-2009, 08:43 PM
trade a 3rd rounder for shaun rogers?

EMB6903
03-26-2009, 09:08 PM
I'd trade our 2nd for Rogers

rcsodak
03-26-2009, 09:22 PM
With as many teams as there are that are going to be using a 3-4, you may as well ask for a mermaid. The likelihood of getting one is equal to finding a good 3-4 NT

:confused:

rcsodak
03-26-2009, 09:30 PM
There is little chance Raji falls all the way to 12. However, if he falls out to 8 and if McDaniels is willing to give up the picks necessary we might be able to trade to get him.
The only thing I've heard come out of mgmt, is they would like to ADD picks, not lose them.

Have they said whether they're going with a 1gap or a 2gap? That would help decide who they'd draft.

rcsodak
03-26-2009, 09:39 PM
Coach, you don't have to have Wilfork to win, just like you don't have to have Brady or LT. Remember Greg Kragen? How many SB's did that guy anchor our 34?

If we were talking about Olines NOW being the same size as THEN, you might make a valid point.


But we're not. ;)

I liked Kragen. He came to play each/every game. But in today's game, he'd be on the bench.

bullis26
03-26-2009, 10:22 PM
I'd trade our 2nd for Rogers

i dont know if that would be enough
The browns traded a second and leigh bodden, no he doesnt want to be there but he didnt want to be in detroit either so, idk
I hope we could get him, way better idea than those wanting to give up our second for gabe watson

bullis26
03-26-2009, 10:25 PM
trade a 3rd rounder for shaun rogers?

no way thatd work.... but people trying to get watson for a second, they would give up two firsts for rodgers

Elevation inc
03-27-2009, 04:51 AM
BJ raji- 6 ft 1, 330 lbs....(top ten pick)
Ron Brace-6 ft 3, 330lbs....(late 1st-2nd rd pick)
Chris Baker- 6 ft 2, 326 lbs....(3rd rd pick)
Dorrell Scott- 6 ft 3, 312 lbs....(late 3rd rd pick)
Samme Lee Hill- 6 ft 4, 329 lbs....(3-4th rd pick)
Terrence Taylor- 6 ft 0, 306 lbs.....(4th rd pick)
Terrance Knighton- 6 ft 3, 321 lbs....(4-5th rd pick)
Roy Miller- 6 ft 1, 310 lbs.....(5th rd pick)
Nader Abdallah- 6 ft 5, 310 lbs....(6th rd pick)
Myron Pryor- 6 ft 0, 319 lbs......(6th rd pick)
Antonio Dixon- 6 ft 3, 328 lbs....(7th rd-FA)
Marlon Favorite- 6 ft 1, 314 lbs....(7th rd-FA)
Khalif Mitchell- 6 ft 5, 318 lbs....(7th rd-FA)



these are all possible big bodies we could target in the draft.....

bud
03-27-2009, 06:18 PM
If we were talking about Olines NOW being the same size as THEN, you might make a valid point.


But we're not. ;)

I liked Kragen. He came to play each/every game. But in today's game, he'd be on the bench.

Really?

And, what exactly is "today's game"?

I want to know.

Define it for me.

Because, I consider "today's game" to be as recent as 1995, 1996, and 1997.

The Carolina Panthers ranked #8, #2, and #12 (respectively) in those seasons.

Kragen took over the starting nose tackle job in '95 and held the job until he retired--following the '97 season.

That was TODAY'S GAME. And, Greg Kragen wasn't on the bench.

He was starting on the NFC's best 3-4 defense.

In "today's game" Kragen would only be "on the bench" if his coaching staff didn't give him a fair chance to play ball.

Truth be told, Greg Kragen was one of the best natural nose tackles to ever play in the NFL. The guy could eat up blocks and plug the middle until the very end.

Let's not start talking about Kragen like he was a quarterback in the 60's. He's not Len Dawson.

He played modern ball and started on great defenses--and Kragen was old and past his prime when he did it. He was starting in Carolina after his skills had faded.

You are telling me that a fresh young Kragen couldn't play nose tackle in Denver tomorrow?

EMB6903
03-27-2009, 06:28 PM
i dont know if that would be enough
The browns traded a second and leigh bodden, no he doesnt want to be there but he didnt want to be in detroit either so, idk
I hope we could get him, way better idea than those wanting to give up our second for gabe watson

I believe Browns picked up Rogers with a 3rd/Bodden... not a 2nd

bullis26
03-27-2009, 06:31 PM
I believe Browns picked up Rogers with a 3rd/Bodden... not a 2nd

really? well they traded there first the year before to get quinn, then i thought they traded a 3rd to get corey williams, but yes a 2nd for williams and a third and bodden sound like itd be a lot smarter....EMB i will however admit i was probably wrong

Dean
03-27-2009, 06:32 PM
NFL football has changed in the last twelve years. An the biggest of those changes is the size and strength of the offensive and defensive linemen. Look it up.

By the way. RC hasn't been a kid in a long time.

bud
03-27-2009, 06:45 PM
NFL football has changed in the last twelve years. An the biggest of those changes is the size and strength of the offensive and defensive linemen. Look it up.

By the way. RC hasn't been a kid in a long time.

Next, you'll be telling me that Tom Nalen couldn't block in "today's game".

Last time I checked, eating blocks is about technique, position, and raw strength.

Just being a fat blob doesn't get it done.

Darrel Green wasn't big enough to play with modern receivers.

And, Dumervil isn't big enough to beat modern tackle.

Let's stop pretending that talent is a simple measure of size.

bullis26
03-27-2009, 06:49 PM
Next, you'll be telling me that Tom Nalen couldn't block in "today's game".

Last time I checked, eating blocks is about technique, position, and raw strength.

Just being a fat blob doesn't get it done.

Darrel Green wasn't big enough to play with modern receivers.

And, Dumervil isn't big enough to beat modern tackle.

Let's stop pretending that talent is a simple measure of size.

however the game definately has changed in the past 10 years...but i do agree with you for the most part

Another couple guys without size but can play...... Bob Sanders - 2007 Defensive player of the year
Jim Leonhard - Beast in the post season
Drew Brees - 2008 offensive player of the year
Eddie Royal, Desean Jackson - best WR's in this years draft class

i could go on, but size doesnt really matter as much as you guys think, no a 200 lb person couldnt play NT, but a 170 lb guy can play WR in the NFL (desean)

bud
03-27-2009, 06:56 PM
Kragen played heavier than ever in Carolina. Weighed about the same as Pryce did.

Both men had success on the inside despite complaints about their size.

Probably had something to do with strength...

Poet
03-27-2009, 07:07 PM
all right smarty pants, name one more guy near that size that can play more than 30% of a teams snaps. I'm sure there are a couple more, but they're few and far between.

my point was having expectations of 330-360 is a bit too enthusiastic imo. I'd be happy with a guy 320-335, and think we'd have a better shot of finding that.

but yeah, we should have let the Jets keep DRob and picked up Jenkins instead. ;)

Sam Adams in his prime, Ted Washington in his prime, that big dude who played for the Ravens in their SB year (not Adams, the other one), Hampton is listed at a measley 325 as well. Jenkins was listed as well.

You can get some BIG BIG BIG men who can play ball, it's possible.

EMB6903
03-27-2009, 07:08 PM
Tom Nalen was 290.... not a 265lb nose tackle... In todays game a 265lb Nose Tackle would get abused against the run.... smallest nose tackle as of right now has to be Ratliff at 300lbs which is pretty small for a 2 gap tackle

Dean
03-27-2009, 07:18 PM
Kevin Williams and John Henderson dont play 2 gap schemes though, but Im not saying you cant be tall to play the position, just that height really doesnt matter when being an interior defensive lineman esspecially a NT

I like Terrence over Brace actually... Hes around 310 right now but could easily add 10-15 pounds to that body.


Henderson is a 2 gapper. Here is a statement alluding to that fact from Football Outsides.


27 Feb 2009

Jaguars To Employ 3-4 Situationally Next Year
Since nothing's happening in free agency, let's link this blog post from Jags writer Michael C. Wright about the team moving some to the 3-4 next year.

It has some real interesting notes about John Henderson ignoring his gap responsibilities a year ago:

Contrary to what you might believe, DT John Henderson actually does (if he can return to form) fit the mold of a 3-4 nose tackle. Henderson possesses the size to occupy multiple blockers. And last season - in an attempt to do more than what was required - the defensive tackle played like a 3-4 nose tackle because he basically two gapped quite a bit (which drove the coaches crazy). Instead of controlling his assigned gap, Henderson often held up blockers at the line of scrimmage and picked which gap to attack based on where the ball was going. When Henderson made the wrong choice, it opened up huge gashes that allowed offensive linemen to get up on the Jaguars linebackers.

Posted by: Bill Barnwell on 27 Feb 2009


© Football Outsiders, Inc. // site design by B:COMPLEX Creative :: site architecture by Distance Software // a Penvelope Kravitz production

EMB6903
03-27-2009, 07:20 PM
well hes yet to play in a 3-4 for an entire season, maybe on occasions... and that says "situationally" probably as much as Denver did this prior year... I wouldnt call him strictly a NT.... I think hes a better fit in a 4-3 but we will see

Dean
03-27-2009, 08:08 PM
Next, you'll be telling me that Tom Nalen couldn't block in "today's game".

Tom is the exception not the rule.


Last time I checked, eating blocks is about technique, position, and raw strength.

Just being a fat blob doesn't get it done.

I don't remember mentioning anything about a fat blob.


Darrel Green wasn't big enough to play with modern receivers.

And, Dumervil isn't big enough to beat modern tackle.

Let's stop pretending that talent is a simple measure of size.

Stop pretending that it has no bearing what so ever. Since you seem to have an affinity for the extremes, explain why there are no present 250 pound nose tackles. You are cherry picking the one case in a hundred and trying to make it seem to be the rule. This is a case of the same line of reasoning.

Gamechanger
03-27-2009, 08:11 PM
Sam Adams in his prime, Ted Washington in his prime, that big dude who played for the Ravens in their SB year (not Adams, the other one), Hampton is listed at a measley 325 as well. Jenkins was listed as well.

You can get some BIG BIG BIG men who can play ball, it's possible.

you are thinking of Tony Siragusa

bud
03-27-2009, 08:51 PM
Carolina's media guide says Kragwn finished his career at 278 lbs.

Hardly 250.

Know what? I think you didn't even know he was playing nose tackle for Carolina.

I embarrassed many of you when I pointed it out.

Even more of you simply googled Kragen. You didn't watch him play. You were in diapers when he played in Denver; and you didn't bother watching the Panthers.

And, you're right. I am cherry picking names of players that showed they could play well despite size. I used names like Greg Kragen.

EMB6903
03-27-2009, 08:56 PM
^^^ man this guy is bitter

you are right, you are the only one that watched him play

nobody under 300 pounds can be a productive NT in the league today, if there is tell me who?

and please dont go back 15 years to prove your point.

also can I get a link of the carolina media guide that says he was 278lbs when he was at carolina?

bud
03-27-2009, 09:07 PM
^^^ man this guy is bitter

you are right, you are the only one that watched him play

nobody under 300 pounds can be a productive NT in the league today, if there is tell me who?

and please dont go back 15 years to prove your point.

also can I get a link of the carolina media guide that says he was 278lbs when he was at carolina?

I think you'd actually have to like the Panthers and buy one.

I thought they were going to make it to the Super Bowl that year... my mistake.

Why don't you post me a link where he's listed at 250?... Because, I know for a fact that he never played below 265... :)

Unlike you, I do know what I'm talking about and don't go out on a limb. I make calculated declarations. And, I stay on the fence if I don't know.

Kragen also had a 6' 3" frame. I never saw any stats on his reach. But, just looking at him, he had the wingspan you would expect from a defensive lineman...

That's hardly a little man. Just a stronger and lighter lineman. And, certainly more than capable of playing and starting in the NFL.

Gamechanger
03-27-2009, 09:15 PM
the 3-4 is relied heavily on the NT, if you do not have a guy who can clog blocks primarily and can get upfield secondly then theres going to be trouble because of the large gaps an NT leaves if he whiffs

on the whole Jacksonville playing in a situational 3-4, they should have kept Stroud, Henderson cannot handle playing the NT role anymore

bullis26
03-27-2009, 09:19 PM
the 3-4 is relied heavily on the NT, if you do not have a guy who can clog blocks primarily and can get upfield secondly then theres going to be trouble because of the large gaps an NT leaves if he whiffs

on the whole Jacksonville playing in a situational 3-4, they should have kept Stroud, Henderson cannot handle playing the NT role anymore

what did they even get for stroud? wasnt it like a 4th rd pick? he had a pretty good year for the bills, they hopefully got something else

Gamechanger
03-27-2009, 09:23 PM
what did they even get for stroud? wasnt it like a 4th rd pick? he had a pretty good year for the bills, they hopefully got something else

3rd and 5th rd. picks

Poet
03-27-2009, 09:28 PM
Carolina's media guide says Kragwn finished his career at 278 lbs.

Hardly 250.

Know what? I think you didn't even know he was playing nose tackle for Carolina.

I embarrassed many of you when I pointed it out.

Even more of you simply googled Kragen. You didn't watch him play. You were in diapers when he played in Denver; and you didn't bother watching the Panthers.

And, you're right. I am cherry picking names of players that showed they could play well despite size. I used names like Greg Kragen.
Your arrogance over nothing is laughable. Naming an exception over the rule does not prove a point.

bud
03-27-2009, 09:40 PM
Your arrogance over nothing is laughable. Naming an exception over the rule does not prove a point.

Kragen managed to succeed facing modern competition and weighing 20 lbs. below 300.

That exception was my point. And, the guy did it after his skills had clearly diminished--at the end of his career... I see a player that could have played heavier earlier in his career--had his coaches asked him to. And, he certainly wasn't short on natural talent at the position.

With a 6' 3" frame and room to play at 278 lbs., he was hardly 250 lbs...

(I still think most of you believed Kragen retired after his days with the Broncos--if you knew about it at all... And, that includes the guilty party that said he couldn't play in "today's game"... I could be wrong; but I bet I'm not.)

Look around the NFC West in the years in question. You won't find a bunch of sub-300 lbs. linemen. Kragen was up against modern sized linemen.

In fact, (you may recall that) the Broncos had the only offensive line in the NFL that averaged under 300 lbs. in '96 and '97...

Poet
03-27-2009, 09:43 PM
Kragen managed to succeed facing modern competition and weighing 20 lbs. below 300.

That exception was my point. And, the guy did it after his skills had clearly diminished--at the end of his career... I see a player that could have played heavier earlier in his career--had his coaches asked him to. And, he certainly wasn't short on natural talent at the position.

With a 6' 3" frame and room to play at 278 lbs., he was hardly 250 lbs...

(I still think most of you believed Kragen retired after his days with the Broncos--if you knew about it at all... And, that includes the guilty party that said he couldn't play in "today's game"... I could be wrong; but I bet I'm not.)

Look around the NFC West in the years in question. You won't find a bunch of sub-300 lbs. linemen. Kragen was up against modern sized linemen.

In fact, (you may recall that) the Broncos had the only offensive line in the NFL that averaged under 300 lbs. in '96 and '97...
So the exception to the rule is your point? Hey guys, something strange and unlikely happend derf derf derf.

Well,when you said that you embarrassed people, you're right. I was embarrassed for you. Don't hurt yourself with all that chest pounding.

EMB6903
03-27-2009, 09:49 PM
I think you'd actually have to like the Panthers and buy one.

I thought they were going to make it to the Super Bowl that year... my mistake.

Why don't you post me a link where he's listed at 250?... Because, I know for a fact that he never played below 265... :)

Unlike you, I do know what I'm talking about and don't go out on a limb. I make calculated declarations. And, I stay on the fence if I don't know.

Kragen also had a 6' 3" frame. I never saw any stats on his reach. But, just looking at him, he had the wingspan you would expect from a defensive lineman...

That's hardly a little man. Just a stronger and lighter lineman. And, certainly more than capable of playing and starting in the NFL.

well first off.... I never said he was 250 pounds but if you want me to show you a link that hes 245lbs I will show you...

http://www.databasefootball.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=KrageGre01

and the heaviest being.... 265

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KragGr00.htm

I think you are completely talking out of your ass by making up BS, but nice try my man

bud
03-27-2009, 09:51 PM
So the exception to the rule is your point? Hey guys, something strange and unlikely happend derf derf derf.

Well,when you said that you embarrassed people, you're right. I was embarrassed for you. Don't hurt yourself with all that chest pounding.

As I recall, this started when people started running around talking about Kragen like he was Len Dawson.

I don't mind if you take shots at me personally. How you feel doesn't really make a difference.

Regardless, I was impressed with the way Kragen revived his career in Carolina. He showed longevity and ability that I didn't know he was capable of... until I actually saw it happen.

I wouldn't choose Kragen if I could get any nose tackle I wanted. But, I wouldn't complain if he was the one I got.

Poet
03-27-2009, 09:55 PM
As I recall, this started when people started running around talking about Kragen like he was Len Dawson.

I don't mind if you take shots at me personally. How you feel doesn't really make a difference.

Regardless, I was impressed with the way Kragen revived his career in Carolina. He showed longevity and ability that I didn't know he was capable of... until I actually saw it happen.

I wouldn't choose Kragen if I could get any nose tackle I wanted. But, I wouldn't complain if he was the one I got.

That's fine, because I don't care how you feel about me, and you don't care about how I feel about you. But, when you start tripping over your own ego for no reason (especially when someone just posts links that make you look silly) I am going to enjoy laughing at you. Really, it's nothing personal, but "embarrassing" people on the interwebz is as worthwhile as stock in fools gold.

If there are any quality DT's OR NT's that are small then they are the exception and not the rule. In other words, they are damn near irrelevant as far as debating anything other than their play.

bud
03-27-2009, 09:55 PM
well first off.... I never said he was 250 pounds but if you want me to show you a link that hes 245lbs I will show you...

http://www.databasefootball.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=KrageGre01

and the heaviest being.... 265

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KragGr00.htm

I think you are completely talking out of your ass by making up BS, but nice try my man

You just showed me a pair of websites that disagree about what the guy weighed.

The Broncos print media guides as well. Most of us fans buy one every year. They make nice collectors items and don't take up much space...

Football cards are another nice reference. But, those do take up space. I got too old for it and sold most of mine. Want to buy a Griese rookie card?

Regardless, you really should get some better Broncos stuff of your own. Those websites stink. I can't believe how many cookies they tried to drop on me.

Poet
03-27-2009, 09:58 PM
You just showed me a pair of websites that disagree about what the guy weighed.

The Broncos print media guides as well. Most of us fans buy one every year. They make nice collectors items and don't take up much space...

Football cards are another nice reference. But, those do take up space. I got too old for it and sold most of mine. Want to buy a Griese rookie card?

Regardless, you really should get some better Broncos stuff of your own. Those websites stink. I can't believe how many cookies they tried to drop on me.

http://telepromptedanthems.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/u-mad1.jpg

EMB6903
03-27-2009, 09:58 PM
You just showed me a pair of websites that disagree about what the guy weighed.

The Broncos print media guides as well. Most of us fans buy one every year. They make nice collectors items and don't take up much space...

Football cards are another nice reference. But, those do take up space. I got too old for it and sold most of mine. Want to buy a Griese rookie card?

Regardless, you really should get some better Broncos stuff of your own. Those websites stink. I can't believe how many cookies they tried to drop on me.


^^^^ what... I showed you a website of him listed at 245

and another at 265

show me where they disagree'd?

I showed you links that backed up my argument... all you have is a team media guide that you supposably have from 1995

Remember he was trevor pryce wieght... LMAO



Pryce= never played under 290

bud
03-27-2009, 10:14 PM
^^^^ what... I showed you a website of him listed at 245

and another at 265

show me where they disagree'd?


Remember he was trevor pryce wieght... LMAO

Pryce= never played under 290

Yep. You showed me two webstites with different numbers.. and no years listed next to either one.

Pryce was drafted at a 280 lbs. He was called a "reach" because he wasn't bulky enough. Broncos coaches insisted he could add bulk. And, he did.

You have a point about him being listed lighter than he played. I'll give you that.

I see he's playing at 295 these days...

Side note: I don't know what he's going to do with the new quarterback rule, but that's his problem. All his sacks were shoestring tackles...

Gamechanger
03-28-2009, 11:13 AM
actually, IIRC the smallest NT was Travis Johnson in a Dom Capers 3-4 alignment

bud
03-28-2009, 11:57 AM
Getting back on topic..

Are we agreed that McDaniels has to do something on draft day?

Is there anybody on the roster that can do it? And, what about depth? Will Denver have any kind of backup up there?

McDaniels better eat his Lucky Charms on draft day.

TXBRONC
03-28-2009, 03:14 PM
Sam Adams in his prime, Ted Washington in his prime, that big dude who played for the Ravens in their SB year (not Adams, the other one), Hampton is listed at a measley 325 as well. Jenkins was listed as well.

You can get some BIG BIG BIG men who can play ball, it's possible.

Tony Siragusa was played on Ravens defensive line when won they Super Bowl.

Poet
03-28-2009, 03:15 PM
Tony Siragusa was played on Ravens defensive line when won they Super Bowl.

Thank you sir.

That was a large large man.

TXBRONC
03-28-2009, 03:22 PM
Thank you sir.

That was a large large man.

His bio had him listed at 6'3" 330 lbs, but I think that was when he was in Jr. High.

By the way you're welcome. :salute:

West
03-28-2009, 03:23 PM
His bio had him listed at 6'3" 330 lbs, but I think that was when he was in Jr. High.

:lol::lol::lol:

horsepig
03-28-2009, 06:46 PM
FCOL (for crying out loud), Greg Kragen anchored at least 2 super bowl defenses. We DO NOT have to have prototypical 34 guys at every position to have an effective defense.

Every player has plusses and minusses. The big fat guy can't pass rush or follow a well schemed running play. The not sofat guy gets pushed back to your "killer" mike lb. You must have a killer mlb.

Remember Fred Dean? Guy had about 10 or so sacks every year for the 49'ers. Elvis Dumervil? Coaches need to know how to use the TALENT they have available.

Shanny was exceptionally good at this to a point, i. e. all the 1000 yard runners. He just couldn't find those same guys on defense.

My point is simply that Lebron, Kobe, Wade and Melo won't always win. The better coached team will win.

West
03-28-2009, 07:05 PM
FCOL (for crying out loud), Greg Kragen anchored at least 2 super bowl defenses. We DO NOT have to have prototypical 34 guys at every position to have an effective defense.

Every player has plusses and minusses. The big fat guy can't pass rush or follow a well schemed running play. The not sofat guy gets pushed back to your "killer" mike lb. You must have a killer mlb.

Remember Fred Dean? Guy had about 10 or so sacks every year for the 49'ers. Elvis Dumervil? Coaches need to know how to use the TALENT they have available.

Shanny was exceptionally good at this to a point, i. e. all the 1000 yard runners. He just couldn't find those same guys on defense.

My point is simply that Lebron, Kobe, Wade and Melo won't always win. The better coached team will win.

No. A good NT will make DJ Williams look like Mike Singletary.

That's the most important position in the 3-4 and it is where you HAVE to have a more than capable player to have a successful defense. Any other opinion is nonsense. Plain and simple.

horsepig
03-28-2009, 07:33 PM
All I'm saying West is that we don't HAVE to have Wilfork and the Steelers LB's to be competitive. I watched, with great pleasure, Joe Collier's defenses in the early seventies, you don't have have Albert Haynesworth in the middle to win the prize, do you?

West
03-28-2009, 07:43 PM
All I'm saying West is that we don't HAVE to have Wilfork and the Steelers LB's to be competitive. I watched, with great pleasure, Joe Collier's defenses in the early seventies, you don't have have Albert Haynesworth in the middle to win the prize, do you?

Did I say so? No. I said a more than capable NT. Saragusa is a more than capable NT. A Haynesworth would be nice but a superstar is not necessarily needed. Just a guy that can clog holes and keep the OL off of the MLB inorder for them to make plays.

Lonestar
03-28-2009, 07:54 PM
All I'm saying West is that we don't HAVE to have Wilfork and the Steelers LB's to be competitive. I watched, with great pleasure, Joe Collier's defenses in the early seventies, you don't have have Albert Haynesworth in the middle to win the prize, do you?

while your correct we do not have to have an all pro NT, but it sure helps..:laugh::laugh: all of the real dominating 3-4 defenses have super stud NT..

We will need a couple of years to build this defense basically from the ground up.. even the two star players that we are keeping may not fit into the long term plans for a great 3-4 defense.. and few of the FA we signed are long term keepers also..

so that means IMHO that we will be drafting lots of D players the next 2-3 years to rebuild it.. we will be scouring the waiver wires for other teams cast offs in/after TC and other teams PS players.. and wait for June one cuts ..

But the DL folks will most likely come from day one choices this year and next..

dogfish
03-28-2009, 08:25 PM
But the DL folks will most likely come from day one choices this year and next..



we hope. . . . :tsk:

horsepig
03-28-2009, 08:41 PM
I'm just glad that our new coach should have at least a healthy respect for the rest of the game. ST's and DEFENSE!

Lonestar
03-28-2009, 08:48 PM
I'm just glad that our new coach should have at least a healthy respect for the rest of the game. ST's and DEFENSE!

unlike the last decade..

Actually Billies ideas here are that the punt is the first play on defense and the return is the very first play on offense .. one of the reasons he has had a lot of starters on those coverages..

His thought process was would you put a second team player out there on either offense or defense..

If you look at his success over the years you have to admit it makes sense..

rcsodak
03-29-2009, 11:58 AM
well first off.... I never said he was 250 pounds but if you want me to show you a link that hes 245lbs I will show you...

http://www.databasefootball.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=KrageGre01

and the heaviest being.... 265

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KragGr00.htm

I think you are completely talking out of your ass by making up BS, but nice try my man

Nice find! Nicer point! ;)

Plus, looking at his numbers, against LARGER Olinemen, his stats suffered greatly. Guess that just PROVES my point even more.

rcsodak
03-29-2009, 12:01 PM
You just showed me a pair of websites that disagree about what the guy weighed.

The Broncos print media guides as well. Most of us fans buy one every year. They make nice collectors items and don't take up much space...

Football cards are another nice reference. But, those do take up space. I got too old for it and sold most of mine. Want to buy a Griese rookie card?

Regardless, you really should get some better Broncos stuff of your own. Those websites stink. I can't believe how many cookies they tried to drop on me.

Conclusion:
If you can't dispute the truth....














.....spin. :coffee:

rcsodak
03-29-2009, 12:05 PM
Getting back on topic..

Are we agreed that McDaniels has to do something on draft day?

Is there anybody on the roster that can do it? And, what about depth? Will Denver have any kind of backup up there?

McDaniels better eat his Lucky Charms on draft day.

Fields=NT
Backups = NTBC and 4-3 alignment.

They have pretty much stated, that it will be a work in progress. The 3-4 will NOT be the overall defense, but a PART of it, until they get the necessary personnel.

rcsodak
03-29-2009, 12:07 PM
All I'm saying West is that we don't HAVE to have Wilfork and the Steelers LB's to be competitive. I watched, with great pleasure, Joe Collier's defenses in the early seventies, you don't have have Albert Haynesworth in the middle to win the prize, do you?

Did you NOT read the above posts, regarding TODAY'S Olines vs YESTERDAYS'?

Small NT's TODAY will get CRUSHED! :rolleyes: