Change to running game.

[broncofaninfla]

From the Denver Post:

Change to running game.
Never mind the new set of running backs (Buckhalter, J.J. Arrington and LaMont Jordan) the Broncos acquired through free agency. Perhaps the most significant change to the Broncos' offense this year will be the diminished role of the zone-blocking scheme that had been a Denver staple since the Mike Shanahan era began in 1995.
"That was really their bread-and-butter," McDaniels said. "We did more gap schemes in New England, where we're going to pull a guard. I can't give that up. That's kind of my baby. But you're going to see both." The new running scheme will showcase the agility of Broncos guards Ben Hamilton and Chris Kuper.

[Dirk]

From the Denver Post:

Change to running game.
Never mind the new set of running backs (Buckhalter, J.J. Arrington and LaMont Jordan) the Broncos acquired through free agency. Perhaps the most significant change to the Broncos' offense this year will be the diminished role of the zone-blocking scheme that had been a Denver staple since the Mike Shanahan era began in 1995.
"That was really their bread-and-butter," McDaniels said. "We did more gap schemes in New England, where we're going to pull a guard. I can't give that up. That's kind of my baby. But you're going to see both." The new running scheme will showcase the agility of Broncos guards Ben Hamilton and Chris Kuper.

Another one of those things where we will have to wait and see it on the field before passing judgement. :coffee:

[broncofaninfla]

Another one of those things where we will have to wait and see it on the field before passing judgement. :coffee:

True. I can't say I'm happy that there will be changes to the running scheme. The zone blocking scheme has worked for us for years. Hard to believe a coach wants to make changes on the leagues #2 rated offense, I hope McD knows what he is doing.......

[claymore]

I am excited about it. Im ready for change. I do love watching the ZBS when we have a good running back. But Portis has been gone for a while.

[underrated29]

As long as we dont get rid of the ZBS all together, i am fine... Its nice to give the defense two looks. But i would primarily like to see 75% ZBS and the rest his 2 gap thing.

[Lonestar]

hooray another part of mikey is kaput....:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


I can hear the mc dipshit crowd now.. over under 87 posts by 11PM

wonder how many more new names this one will spawn..

[claymore]

hooray another part of mikey is kaput....:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


I can hear the mc dipshit crowd now.. over under 87 posts by 11PM

wonder how many more new names this one will spawn..

I hope we get rid of Hillis.

[GEM]

I hope sometime soon, we get a glimpse of what they are doing to fix the DEFENSE...we keep hearing about the changes to the offense...the offense wasn't the issue.

I'll hold judgment til we see what is presented on the field, but so far, not so impressed.

[Lonestar]

I hope sometime soon, we get a glimpse of what they are doing to fix the DEFENSE...we keep hearing about the changes to the offense...the offense wasn't the issue.

I'll hold judgment til we see what is presented on the field, but so far, not so impressed.

we all know that some thing is gonna change on D..

I think THEY/we need to know who the players are gonna be before they decide on 4-3 or 3-4 and what could or mght work..

More will be done/said after the draft..

[BroncoWave]

I hope sometime soon, we get a glimpse of what they are doing to fix the DEFENSE...we keep hearing about the changes to the offense...the offense wasn't the issue.

I'll hold judgment til we see what is presented on the field, but so far, not so impressed.

Um, were you asleep when he hired Nolan as DC, switched to 3-4, and signed a bushel of FA's including Dawkins?

I wish people would quit acting like McDaniels is only focusing on the offense and ignoring the defense because that is simply not the case.

[BroncoJoe]

I hope sometime soon, we get a glimpse of what they are doing to fix the DEFENSE...we keep hearing about the changes to the offense...the offense wasn't the issue.

I'll hold judgment til we see what is presented on the field, but so far, not so impressed.

Well, being #2 in yards and #16 in points says "issue" to me.

On the contrary, New England was #5 in yards and #8 in points.

The defense needs to be addressed, but the ranking of #2 on offense for the Broncos is a misnomer.

[Northman]

Its time for a change anyway.

[BroncoWave]

Well, being #2 in yards and #16 in points says "issue" to me.

On the contrary, New England was #5 in yards and #8 in points.

The defense needs to be addressed, but the ranking of #2 for the Broncos is a misnomer.

Agreed. So many people acted like our offense was perfect but being #16 in points won't cut it. Who cares how many yards you can gain when they aren't translating into points?

[BroncoJoe]

Agreed. So many people acted like our offense was perfect but being #16 in points won't cut it. Who cares how many yards you can gain when they aren't translating into points?

They'll blame the running game.

:tsk:

[CoachChaz]

They'll blame the running game.

:tsk:

...and somehow the defense found a way to take points off the board as well

[claymore]

Agreed. So many people acted like our offense was perfect but being #16 in points won't cut it. Who cares how many yards you can gain when they aren't translating into points?

We may need to get a running back.

[GEM]

Um, were you asleep when he hired Nolan as DC, switched to 3-4, and signed a bushel of FA's including Dawkins?

I wish people would quit acting like McDaniels is only focusing on the offense and ignoring the defense because that is simply not the case.

Nolan who has been mediocre as DC in a few different cities, don't have the personnel to pull off a true 3-4 and signed a bushel of 2nd and 3rd tier FA's and a past his prime Dawkins.

If that's what we fired Shanny for....I'm still not impressed. :coffee:

[CoachChaz]

Dawk is still a top 5 or yop 10 safety, regardless of age and the guy flat out adds leadership. Just watch a few old Eagles games and the routines he goes through on the field before and during the game and tell me that even as a mere viewer...you arent motivated.

Hill and Goodson and Davis arent the big, flashy name, but you cant get more solid at either position. Are they going to make the big highlight reel play all the time? No...but they aren't going to miss a play or make too many mistakes because they were trying to "look good".

Reed and Fields are on the same boat. So, sure...maybe they are technically 2nd or 3rd tier FA's, but you arent going to find a more solid group of competent and consistent performers.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

It doesn't matter if you are impressed or not -- they have addressed the defense and have made acquisitions with players who fit the 3-4 extremely well. They still have some holes to fill, but that is why there is the draft. It takes more than one off-season to completely revamp a defense. People need to realize that. To say Denver hasn't placed a premium on the defense is being disingenuous.

[BroncoWave]

Nolan who has been mediocre as DC in a few different cities, don't have the personnel to pull off a true 3-4 and signed a bushel of 2nd and 3rd tier FA's and a past his prime Dawkins.

If that's what we fired Shanny for....I'm still not impressed. :coffee:

The tone of your post was that McD is doing nothing to try to fix the defense, which is clearly not the case. You may not like the moves he has made but that doesn't mean he isn't trying his hardest to fix it. Nolan is a huge upgrade over any DC we have had in a while and even an old Dawkins is WAY better than anyone we had playing safety last season, and his leadership is invaluable. And if you factor in the addition by subtraction of getting rid of Slowick and Webster, I would say he is off to a great start in turning our defense around.

It seems to me like you have your expectations way too high in wanting him to instantly fix the defense. This is a process that is going to take time. No coach will be able to fix this defense overnight but I feel that McDaniels is at least off to a good start in that regard.

[GEM]

And as I said in the initial post....I'll wait til I see the product on the field before making a firm determination. So far on paper....it could be good, but it would be more of just the same ole ish. Now if we go Defense in the draft my hopes will go up a bit more. I really want to see what this front office does in the draft as far as scouting and who they end up with.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

You acted as if Denver hadn't done anything at all and completely bypassed their defensive fiasco. That isn't the case.

[GEM]

Last time I checked we could put opinions out there right? Holy shit....I personally am not that impressed. You personally are. It's a difference of OPINION.

:rolleyes:

[GEM]

I hope sometime soon, we get a glimpse of what they are doing to fix the DEFENSE...we keep hearing about the changes to the offense...the offense wasn't the issue.

I'll hold judgment til we see what is presented on the field, but so far, not so impressed.

Where the hell in there does it say they have done nothing? I said I wasn't impressed, so you are going to argue my opinion? Seriously?

:lol:

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Yeah, and probably a difference of fundamentally understanding the 3-4 defense and how well these players fit into that system. If people understood that, they'd probably be impressed.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

"I hope sometime soon, we get a glimpse of what they are doing to fix the DEFENSE..."

Come on now. . . too easy.

[BroncoWave]

Last time I checked we could put opinions out there right? Holy shit....I personally am not that impressed. You personally are. It's a difference of OPINION.

:rolleyes:

There is a difference between saying you don't like the changes on defense and saying that we are doing nothing to fix the defense. McD is clearly making efforts to fix the defense. Just because you don't like those efforts doesn't mean he isn't trying.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

We didn't sign any defensive free agents who were 3-4 scheme players before. . . did we BTB? I can't remember. I don't think so. That McDaniels dude is a loser.

[getlynched47]

that's stupid.

McDipShit should've kept the zone blocking scheme full time and implement his spread passing offense. That way McDumbass could invent his own identity instead of the "Patriot Way" :rolleyes:

[GEM]

Yeah, and probably a difference of fundamentally understanding the 3-4 defense and how well these players fit into that system. If people understood that, they'd probably be impressed.

So now I don't understand the 3-4 defense. :lol: It's been in every media outlet that we don't have the personnel to pull it off. That is why we are most likely going to run a hybrid.

Keep your snide backhanded bs remarks out of it Dream.

[NightTrainLayne]

Regarding the ZBS, it seems to me that we've slowly been modifying or moving ever so slightly away from it anyways over the past 2-3 years. We haven't been running as much of the "stretch" play looking for cut-backs.

Part of that I think was some limited talent, and new blood in the system. .. you can't implement it all at once. Part of it is surely due to more time passing without Alex Gibbs around. And part of it is moving to a more "pocket passer" oriented offense.

So.. . .I guess my point is, that if they keep some parts of ZBS and add a few new wrinkles here and there with pulling guards, I'm all for it. Why not? We've been slowly adapting and changing ZBS anyways.

[CoachChaz]

It comes down to name recognition. We got one name in Dawkins, but who had Reed, Fields, Hill, Goodman or Davis on their FA wish list? Likely no one. Had we landed Dawkins, Peppers, Lewis, Canty, etc...then people would be much more impressed. The problem is that we needed alot of good players at a reasonable cost. I firmly believe we achieved that. I understand at first glance that the names we acquired wont sell papers, but being more than a casual observer of the NFL, I also know that we got some really good players that produce results.

So, I can understand someone not immediately being impressed and yes, there is alot more work to do...but I believe we'll all see a significant difference in our defense this year. be patient

[BroncoWave]

that's stupid.

McDipShit should've kept the zone blocking scheme full time and implement his spread passing offense. That way McDumbass could invent his own identity instead of the "Patriot Way" :rolleyes:

McDaniels could cure cancer and you would still find a way to bash him.

You really need to understand that MIKE SHANAHAN IS NOT THE COACH ANYMORE. McDaniels is a different coach and is going to implement his own system. People act like the ZBS is the only way in the world to have a successful running game. If you actually watched a Pats game in the last 2 years you would see that McD's system works pretty well too.

And he's not totally dumping the ZBS. He's going to use that along with his running system. Where is the bad part of giving the defenses multiple looks to worry about in defending the running game?

[CoachChaz]

that's stupid.

McDipShit should've kept the zone blocking scheme full time and implement his spread passing offense. That way McDumbass could invent his own identity instead of the "Patriot Way" :rolleyes:

I guess I still cant figure out what has been so unsuccessful about the "Patriot Way" that it should be dismissed. When you can take mediocre QB's, mediocre lineman, mediocre RB's and mediocre WR's (Moss excluded) and turn them into an offensive juggernaut year after year after year...I guess I have just a little bit of respect for that.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

So now I don't understand the 3-4 defense. :lol:

A lot of people don't. Honestly, in-depth? No.


It's been in every media outlet that we don't have the personnel to pull it off.

We are acquiring that personnel. It takes time. Patience is a virtue.


That is why we are most likely going to run a hybrid.

Base 3-4 teams often change up their looks and throw something new at offenses. It is nothing new.


Keep your snide backhanded bs remarks out of it Dream.

Wasn't a snide, backhanded remark. It was my personal opinion and observation. "Want to debate my opinion?" :lol:

[GEM]

A lot of people don't. Honestly, in-depth? No.



We are acquiring that personnel. It takes time. Patience is a virtue.


Base 3-4 teams often change up their looks and throw something new at offenses. It is nothing new.



Wasn't a snide, backhanded remark. It was my personal opinion and observation. "Want to debate my opinion?" :lol:

As I said....I'll see what the product on the field is...hopefully I am pleasantly surprised.

Yea...actually it was. And no I'm not going to debate it. I saw it for what it was, called you on it and you know where I stand on it. That's the last thing I'll say on that subject.

[broncofaninfla]

Regardless of what worked in New England fact is we had the second ranked offense in the league, it's certainly justified to question the decisions being made by a new coach who comes in a makes changes on that side of the ball. Time will tell if it will work but as fans we have every right to question scheme and personnel changes when those changes are being made to what was a pretty potent offense last year.

[CoachChaz]

Regardless of what worked in New England fact is we had the second ranked offense in the league, it's certainly justified to question the decisions being made by a new coach who comes in a makes changes on that side of the ball. Time will tell if it will work but as fans we have every right to question scheme and personnel changes when those changes are being made to what was a pretty potent offense last year.

I can understand questioning the changes in a good offense, but every coach makes changes suitable to his coaching philosophy.

[bcbronc]

Pissing match aside......


I'm all for adding tweaks to the ZBS. when it was ours and ours alone, teams only saw it 1-2 times per year. Its not as exclusive anymore, players see it a lot more, and they respond better.

Pulling some guards should have been in our offense all along. we have agile, athletic interior lineman, lets take advantage. when done right, there's no reason pulling a guard here and there can't be the perfect compliment to the ZBS.

[NightTrainLayne]

I can understand questioning the changes in a good offense, but every coach makes changes suitable to his coaching philosophy.

Right. I highly doubt that Shanny left his play-book behind for McDaniels. . .and even if he did, it's Shanny's offense. McD will obviously run his own. If he didn't have enough confidence and ability to run his own offense, he wouldn't be an OC and now HC in the NFL.

[weazel]

the one thing that Denver had going for it was the zone blocking on the line. To come in and think he can just change that and use these players for his scheme is kind of ridiculous. Lets hope it works, because the one thing that the Patriots haven't had is a good running game.

[honz]

I hope sometime soon, we get a glimpse of what they are doing to fix the DEFENSE...we keep hearing about the changes to the offense...the offense wasn't the issue.

I'll hold judgment til we see what is presented on the field, but so far, not so impressed.

I believe they have addressed the defense. They pretty much gutted it by getting rid of 7 starters, brought in a reputable DC, and are totally changing schemes...it's just that McDaniels is running the offense. Nolan runs the defense, but nobody is interviewing him. Also, McDaniels has commented several times on the changes we are making defensively anyways.

[BroncoWave]

Regardless of what worked in New England fact is we had the second ranked offense in the league, it's certainly justified to question the decisions being made by a new coach who comes in a makes changes on that side of the ball. Time will tell if it will work but as fans we have every right to question scheme and personnel changes when those changes are being made to what was a pretty potent offense last year.

Good lord, 2nd in offense is such a mirage. We were 16th in scoring. If you are happy with that, so be it, but the offense isn't perfect. And what do you expect him to do, come in and keep the exact same offense Shanny ran? Josh McDaniels is not Mike Shanahan, he is Josh McDaniels. You had to know the day he was hired that he was going to install his own offense. Would you rather him just keep an offense in place that he isn't entirely familiar or comfortable with? I personally, would rather him install an offense that he knows and is familiar with and that he has had success with in the past.

If some of you are so deadset on seeing the exact same offense that Shanny left behind, then go follow whatever team he coaches in 2010. This is Josh McDaniels' team now, not Shanahan's.

[honz]

I believe they have addressed the defense. They pretty much gutted it by getting rid of 7 starters, brought in a reputable DC, and are totally changing schemes...it's just that McDaniels is running the offense. Nolan runs the defense, but nobody is interviewing him. Also, McDaniels has commented several times on the changes we are making defensively anyways.

Whoops, sorry...I didn't realize that BTB and Cicero had already addressed this aplenty. :lol:

[BroncoWave]

the one thing that Denver had going for it was the zone blocking on the line. To come in and think he can just change that and use these players for his scheme is kind of ridiculous. Lets hope it works, because the one thing that the Patriots haven't had is a good running game.

If you read the article, he's not totally dumping the ZBS. He's just intergrating his own system in with it and will use a little of both. I still fail to see how giving multiple looks to the defense in the running game is a bad thing.

[honz]

It comes down to name recognition. We got one name in Dawkins, but who had Reed, Fields, Hill, Goodman or Davis on their FA wish list? Likely no one. Had we landed Dawkins, Peppers, Lewis, Canty, etc...then people would be much more impressed. The problem is that we needed alot of good players at a reasonable cost. I firmly believe we achieved that. I understand at first glance that the names we acquired wont sell papers, but being more than a casual observer of the NFL, I also know that we got some really good players that produce results.

So, I can understand someone not immediately being impressed and yes, there is alot more work to do...but I believe we'll all see a significant difference in our defense this year. be patient

I have an opinion on players just like everyone else, but after seeing how me and most of this forum bashed the Clady and Royal picks last year I've learned that our opinions probably aren't that reputable. :D

[Hawgdriver]

Agreed. So many people acted like our offense was perfect but being #16 in points won't cut it. Who cares how many yards you can gain when they aren't translating into points?

Will a power/gap or whatever scheme NE runs improve red zone scoring next year?

[getlynched47]

McDaniels could cure cancer and you would still find a way to bash him.

You really need to understand that MIKE SHANAHAN IS NOT THE COACH ANYMORE. McDaniels is a different coach and is going to implement his own system. People act like the ZBS is the only way in the world to have a successful running game. If you actually watched a Pats game in the last 2 years you would see that McD's system works pretty well too.

And he's not totally dumping the ZBS. He's going to use that along with his running system. Where is the bad part of giving the defenses multiple looks to worry about in defending the running game?

sorry. I was a hard core Denver Broncos fan. I'm not a huge fan of the Denver Patriots though :coffee:

[CoachChaz]

sorry. I was a hard core Denver Broncos fan. I'm not a huge fan of the Denver Patriots though :coffee:

Would the Denver Giants (Spagnuolo), Denver Cowboys (Garrett) or anything else be better? Because thats what would have happened

[getlynched47]

Would the Denver Giants (Spagnuolo), Denver Cowboys (Garrett) or anything else be better? Because thats what would have happened

Garrett blows. I would've been even more pissed if we brought his sorry ass here to Denver to be our HC.

We wouldn't have been the Denver Giants if Spags came here. He wouldn't have effed with everything that we had working great last year.
If it ain't broke, dont fix it. McDaniels is spending most of his evaluation on the offense and changing all that stuff around.

lets hope it actually works out, because were stuck with the d-bag for at least 4 years :eek:

[CoachChaz]

Garrett blows. I would've been even more pissed if we brought his sorry ass here to Denver to be our HC.

We wouldn't have been the Denver Giants if Spags came here. He wouldn't have effed with everything that we had working great last year.
If it ain't broke, dont fix it. McDaniels is spending most of his evaluation on the offense and changing all that stuff around.

lets hope it actually works out, because were stuck with the d-bag for at least 4 years :eek:

What? They've hired a new DC and quite a few FA's on that side of the ball. As far as the offense, he has said he's going to make changes, but not an overhaul...and you have no clue what any other coach would have done here...other than implement styles and systems they prefer. All coaches do.

Maybe try seeing if it works over the next few seasons before jumping to an ignorant conclusion.

[getlynched47]

What? They've hired a new DC and quite a few FA's on that side of the ball. As far as the offense, he has said he's going to make changes, but not an overhaul...and you have no clue what any other coach would have done here...other than implement styles and systems they prefer. All coaches do.

Maybe try seeing if it works over the next few seasons before jumping to an ignorant conclusion.

I'm not worried that it wont work. I am just sad to see our patented Bronco ZBS scheme disappear little by little.

I have faith that our offense will be okay, but I would like to see McDaniels use what he has here instead of staying 100% with the Patriot way.

For example. We know he doesnt use Tight Ends much in the passing game. Here in Denver he has 2 great pass-catching Tight Ends. USE THEM! Instead, he wants to get rid of Scheffler to keep things in line with "The Patriot Way".

I would've loved to see the ZBS for running the ball and his great spread passing offense when we pass. But McDaniels is way too tied to "his system"

[bcbronc]

sorry. I was a hard core Denver 49ers fan. I'm not a huge fan of the Denver Patriots though :coffee:

fixed to better fit your logic.


:coffee:

[getlynched47]

fixed to better fit your logic.


:coffee:

that makes no sense. Good one :rolleyes:

[bcbronc]

that makes no sense. Good one :rolleyes:

I guess it makes no sense if you're 12.

:rolleyes:

[CoachChaz]

I'm not worried that it wont work. I am just sad to see our patented Bronco ZBS scheme disappear little by little.

I have faith that our offense will be okay, but I would like to see McDaniels use what he has here instead of staying 100% with the Patriot way.

For example. We know he doesnt use Tight Ends much in the passing game. Here in Denver he has 2 great pass-catching Tight Ends. USE THEM! Instead, he wants to get rid of Scheffler to keep things in line with "The Patriot Way".

I would've loved to see the ZBS for running the ball and his great spread passing offense when we pass. But McDaniels is way too tied to "his system"

He will utilize a combination of ZBS and his scheme. Why not change things up rom time to timt and keep a defense guessing?

2 great pass catching TE's? One is a great receiver and useless blocker and the other is a great blocker and adequate receiver. Which do you think holds more value in a spread offense?

[BroncoJoe]

Regardless of what worked in New England fact is we had the second ranked offense in the league, it's certainly justified to question the decisions being made by a new coach who comes in a makes changes on that side of the ball. Time will tell if it will work but as fans we have every right to question scheme and personnel changes when those changes are being made to what was a pretty potent offense last year.

For the last effing time, yards don't equal points! We were 16th in scoring!

[CoachChaz]

Yeah, I figure when we can show our offense had a QB and WR break some TD records, then I'll say our offense was better

[Lonestar]

We may need to get a running back.


NE's MO has been the past 4-5 years a couple of semi-stud Buffalo's each getting about 750-900 yards and a third Rb getting about 400 and some receptions for 400 yards or so....


I suspect that is what we will see here.. this next few years..

[honz]

We've gutted the defense. We haven't lost a single starter on offense yet, and it's not looking like we will unless Cutler or Scheff get traded...it's not really looking like that is going to happen though IMO. I'm not sure how exactly he has screwed with the offense so much besides bringing in his schemes which is to be expected with any new coach. Granted, he at least considered trading our QB, but it's looking like he was only interested in getting Cassel in return.

So, all in all, we've cut an old backup WR, a couple of running backs that barely even saw the field last year (although I would have liked to have kept Aldridge), let go of Pittman that only showed that his body can't take the hits anymore, and a mediocre TE that usually doesn't even make it through training camp. Every key part of our offense from last year is still in tact.

[BroncoJoe]

... But McDaniels is way too tied to "his system"

Yeah. And it's been SO unsuccessful compared to our system as of late.

:tsk:

[honz]

I'm not worried that it wont work. I am just sad to see our patented Bronco ZBS scheme disappear little by little.

I have faith that our offense will be okay, but I would like to see McDaniels use what he has here instead of staying 100% with the Patriot way.

For example. We know he doesnt use Tight Ends much in the passing game. Here in Denver he has 2 great pass-catching Tight Ends. USE THEM! Instead, he wants to get rid of Scheffler to keep things in line with "The Patriot Way".

I would've loved to see the ZBS for running the ball and his great spread passing offense when we pass. But McDaniels is way too tied to "his system"

The Patriots' offense was McDaniels' offense the past few years, so wouldn't that make it "The McDaniels Way"?...and McDaniels is our new coach.

[Lonestar]

The tone of your post was that McD is doing nothing to try to fix the defense, which is clearly not the case. You may not like the moves he has made but that doesn't mean he isn't trying his hardest to fix it. Nolan is a huge upgrade over any DC we have had in a while and even an old Dawkins is WAY better than anyone we had playing safety last season, and his leadership is invaluable. And if you factor in the addition by subtraction of getting rid of Slowick and Webster, I would say he is off to a great start in turning our defense around.

It seems to me like you have your expectations way too high in wanting him to instantly fix the defense. This is a process that is going to take time. No coach will be able to fix this defense overnight but I feel that McDaniels is at least off to a good start in that regard.

Your correct here..

It took almost a decade to run the defense into the ground.. REGARDLESS of the rankings while coyer was here we had some top 5 defenses in either run or pass during those times frames but when you look at the other side in pass or run they were far from being top 15 .. Which meant they did not have to run the ball they could pass all day or vice versa..

SO since the super bowl years and the retirement or trading/cutting of the decent talent we had back then, we have been slowly circling the drain until slowick got promoted..

It will take 3-5 years to get this defense on par with the offensive side of the ball.. And that is with using the draft choices we have to build it from scratch, While using some old vets to instill pride into the newbies..

[Lonestar]

It comes down to name recognition. We got one name in Dawkins, but who had Reed, Fields, Hill, Goodman or Davis on their FA wish list? Likely no one. Had we landed Dawkins, Peppers, Lewis, Canty, etc...then people would be much more impressed. The problem is that we needed alot of good players at a reasonable cost. I firmly believe we achieved that. I understand at first glance that the names we acquired wont sell papers, but being more than a casual observer of the NFL, I also know that we got some really good players that produce results.

So, I can understand someone not immediately being impressed and yes, there is alot more work to do...but I believe we'll all see a significant difference in our defense this year. be patient

for the most part I'll bet no one on here coulds name the starting NE team outside a couple of players they have a lot of "team" players all getting rings every couple of years.. :D

[Lonestar]

McDaniels could cure cancer and you would still find a way to bash him.

You really need to understand that MIKE SHANAHAN IS NOT THE COACH ANYMORE. McDaniels is a different coach and is going to implement his own system. People act like the ZBS is the only way in the world to have a successful running game. If you actually watched a Pats game in the last 2 years you would see that McD's system works pretty well too.

And he's not totally dumping the ZBS. He's going to use that along with his running system. Where is the bad part of giving the defenses multiple looks to worry about in defending the running game?

He had said coming in that they had been trying to impelement the ZBS into their running game in NE.. SO I suspect that like you said it will not go away complelety..

[Lonestar]

Pissing match aside......


I'm all for adding tweaks to the ZBS. when it was ours and ours alone, teams only saw it 1-2 times per year. Its not as exclusive anymore, players see it a lot more, and they respond better.

Pulling some guards should have been in our offense all along. we have agile, athletic interior lineman, lets take advantage. when done right, there's no reason pulling a guard here and there can't be the perfect compliment to the ZBS.


your correct about it being all over the place 7-8 teams have used it and more are adding it to the arsenal as they see it more and in some cases practice against it they get better at shutting it down..

[Lonestar]

We've gutted the defense. We haven't lost a single starter on offense yet, and it's not looking like we will unless Cutler or Scheff get traded...it's not really looking like that is going to happen though IMO. I'm not sure how exactly he has screwed with the offense so much besides bringing in his schemes which is to be expected with any new coach. Granted, he at least considered trading our QB, but it's looking like he was only interested in getting Cassel in return.

So, all in all, we've cut an old backup WR, a couple of running backs that barely even saw the field last year (although I would have liked to have kept Aldridge), let go of Pittman that only showed that his body can't take the hits anymore, and a mediocre TE that usually doesn't even make it through training camp. Every key part of our offense from last year is still in tact.
.


good post..
after hearing the anti Josh crowd one would think he cut all the offense and let the defense in tact..

[Lonestar]

Yeah. And it's been SO unsuccessful compared to our system as of late.

:tsk:

how many trips to the Superbowl since we went last?

And they wonder why Pat dipped into that well.. ahahahahahah-aha

[BroncoJoe]

JR, I think you just set the record for consecutive posts.

Pending review of Hoe's posts, anyway...

[Lonestar]

JR, I think you just set the record for consecutive posts.

Pending review of Hoe's posts, anyway...


I just posts them as I read through the posts.. That way I do not taint my replies with others ideas..

I thought this thread was continuing to grow and did not see it till I was done going through it..

[broncofaninfla]

Good lord, 2nd in offense is such a mirage. We were 16th in scoring. If you are happy with that, so be it, but the offense isn't perfect. And what do you expect him to do, come in and keep the exact same offense Shanny ran? Josh McDaniels is not Mike Shanahan, he is Josh McDaniels. You had to know the day he was hired that he was going to install his own offense. Would you rather him just keep an offense in place that he isn't entirely familiar or comfortable with? I personally, would rather him install an offense that he knows and is familiar with and that he has had success with in the past.

If some of you are so deadset on seeing the exact same offense that Shanny left behind, then go follow whatever team he coaches in 2010. This is Josh McDaniels' team now, not Shanahan's.

So you are saying we were so bad last year that we needed to be completely overhauled on both sides of the ball? Our DEFENSE was HORRIBLE last year, just god awful. Our offense was pretty good and would have even better if the defense wasn't so much of a liability. Was our offense so good that it didn't have room for improvement? Heck no! A total scheme change though? If we were 3-13 I could accept this but we weren't a team that needed a complete overhaul.
I know it's McD's team and I'm not holding on to the ghost of Shanny past here just question what the rookie coach is thinking.

[BroncoWave]

sorry. I was a hard core Denver Broncos fan. I'm not a huge fan of the Denver Patriots though :coffee:

Ok, fine, go cheer for the Dallas Shanahans next year. :noidea:

[broncofaninfla]

For the last effing time, yards don't equal points! We were 16th in scoring!

Factor in how crappy our defense was. If we had fielded even a half *ss defense last year we would have had better field position and more points. I'm not saying our offense couldn't improve, they can. I just don't feel a total scheme change was the right direction for this team.
We are learning new schemes on both sides of the ball now with a rookie coach fresh of a QB controversy leading the way. I like having different players on defense, they have to be better than what we had before but what we gained on that side of the ball, we stand to lose on the offensive side of the ball with a scheme change there. Add what I'm sure will be some rookies, possible Marshall suspension and a pretty tough schedule and we'll have a lot issues to over come. I agree we needed some changes but this wasn't the offseason I had hoped for so far.

[Lonestar]

I just posted this in another thread it is food for thought..

here are NE running numbers last year..



#6 in total yards. 12th

#7 in YPC. 4th

#4 in TD's 14th

#1 in 1st downs 14th

Tied for 2nd in fewest fumbles 6th worst

#4 in attempts 28th


Pretty impressive IMHO










BTW that is DEN in RED

[BroncoWave]

So you are saying we were so bad last year that we needed to be completely overhauled on both sides of the ball? Our DEFENSE was HORRIBLE last year, just god awful. Our offense was pretty good and would have even better if the defense wasn't so much of a liability. Was our offense so good that it didn't have room for improvement? Heck no! A total scheme change though? If we were 3-13 I could accept this but we weren't a team that needed a complete overhaul.
I know it's McD's team and I'm not holding on to the ghost of Shanny past here just question what the rookie coach is thinking.

How have we "overhauled" our offense? As of now, Denver still has all 11 starters from last season and unless Cutler gets traded, it looks to stay that way. Sure, he's going to change the system but that's to be expected from a new coach. And for the millionth time, if people would read the article they'd see that he's not dumping the ZBS, he's just implementing his own system in with it. What is so freaking bad about that?

[BroncoJoe]

Factor in how crappy our defense was. If we had fielded even a half *ss defense last year we would have had better field position and more points. I'm not saying our offense couldn't improve, they can. I just don't feel a total scheme change was the right direction for this team.
We are learning new schemes on both sides of the ball now with a rookie coach fresh of a QB controversy leading the way. I like having different players on defense, they have to be better than what we had before but what we gained on that side of the ball, we stand to lose on the offensive side of the ball with a scheme change there. Add what I'm sure will be some rookies, possible Marshall suspension and a pretty tough schedule and we'll have a lot issues to over come. I agree we needed some changes but this wasn't the offseason I had hoped for so far.

I've posted it in other threads, and probably this one too. There were only three games last year where it was over after the 3rd quarter. If you want to be picky, it could be four games. Check it out.

Lack of scoring loses games as much, if not more, as allowing scoring.

[BroncoWave]

I just posted this in another thread it is food for thought..

here are NE running numbers last year..



#6 in total yards. 12th

#7 in YPC. 4th

#4 in TD's 14th

#1 in 1st downs 14th

Tied for 2nd in fewest fumbles 6th worst

#4 in attempts 28th


Pretty impressive IMHO










BTW that is DEN in RED

Yep, and that was done with a less than impressive group of running backs. It just amazes me how people just completely dismiss his scheme and demand we stick to the same things we did under Shanny/Bates.

[Lonestar]

How have we "overhauled" our offense? As of now, Denver still has all 11 starters from last season and unless Cutler gets traded, it looks to stay that way. Sure, he's going to change the system but that's to be expected from a new coach. And for the millionth time, if people would read the article they'd see that he's not dumping the ZBS, he's just implementing his own system in with it. What is so freaking bad about that?


If you look at the numbers above they will see that NE has had a decent running game to go with the passing game.. it has never been chopped liver..

[BroncoJoe]

Yep. Our #2 ranked offense gained a whopping 32 yards more per game than the Patriots #5 ranked offense under McDaniels.

Wow.

[Lonestar]

Yep, and that was done with a less than impressive group of running backs. It just amazes me how people just completely dismiss his scheme and demand we stick to the same things we did under Shanny/Bates.


they will argue that they had a NE's QB and he needed their help in the running game.. true but the NE numbers are real consistent over the past few years..

then they will bring up we did not run cause we had a lousy D and jay was always trying to come from behind..

Had mikey ran more that probably would not have been the case.. but they panicked in many of the games and went pass only..

[Lonestar]

Yep. Our #2 ranked offense gained a whopping 32 yards more per game than the Patriots #5 ranked offense under McDaniels.

Wow.

you forgot to add with essentially a rookie QB.. YET folks wonder why Pat was impressed with him..

they have to get used to mikey is dead, the wicked warlock is dead.. lalalala

[DenBronx]

you forgot to add with essentially a rookie QB.. YET folks wonder why Pat was impressed with him..

they have to get used to mikey is dead, the wicked warlock is dead.. lalalala

i dont recall any reports of bowlen being impressed with cassel. maybe i missed it.

[CoachChaz]

i dont recall any reports of bowlen being impressed with cassel. maybe i missed it.

I think it was meant that Bowlen was impressed with McD enough to give him the job

[turftoad]

If you look at the numbers above they will see that NE has had a decent running game to go with the passing game.. it has never been chopped liver..

JR, I think you should just turn into a NE fan. I mean, you mention them in just about every post. :shocked:

We ARE NOT the New England Patriots and McD is NOT Belichick (SP).
Just because he is our new head coach doesn't mean we get the same results as NE the past few years.
McD is a rookie coach, he hasn't gotten a win under his belt as such yet.

I'm with Gem, I'm not overly immpessed with what he's shown on "D" either.

I do like the Nolan hire. I do like some of the young DL he's brough in, even if they haven't proven themselves yet. That said, they are still unproven.

We brought in some good DB's. However, Dawkins is 35 yrs old and on the downside. He's not what he used to be. Yeah, he's a good leader, I'll give him that.
Other than that, we brought in a couple of average at best DB's. Both new starters brought in are 30 yrs old. Our new MLB is 30 yrs old. I hope they can hold up for a couple of years and I hope we draft replacements for them for down the road.

Right now:
Saftey = 35
Saftey = 30
Both CBs = 30

So, I do hope we stick to drafting "D" this year.

Yep, we were 2nd in yards and 16th inn points last year. Well, if McD is such and offensive guru, he should be able to take pretty much the same players and turn them into a top 5 scoring offense.

Make minor changes to the "O" and overhaul the "D".

[DenBronx]

^^^^^
great post

[BroncoWave]

JR, I think you should just turn into a NE fan. I mean, you mention them in just about every post. :shocked:

We ARE NOT the New England Patriots and McD is NOT Belichick (SP).
Just because he is our new head coach doesn't mean we get the same results as NE the past few years.
McD is a rookie coach, he hasn't gotten a win under his belt as such yet.

I'm with Gem, I'm not overly immpessed with what he's shown on "D" either.

I do like the Nolan hire. I do like some of the young DL he's brough in, even if they haven't proven themselves yet. That said, they are still unproven.

We brought in some good DB's. However, Dawkins is 35 yrs old and on the downside. He's not what he used to be. Yeah, he's a good leader, I'll give him that.
Other than that, we brought in a couple of average at best DB's. Both new starters brought in are 30 yrs old. Our new MLB is 30 yrs old. I hope they can hold up for a couple of years and I hope we draft replacements for them for down the road.

Right now:
Saftey = 35
Saftey = 30
Both CBs = 30

So, I do hope we stick to drafting "D" this year.

Yep, we were 2nd in yards and 16th inn points last year. Well, if McD is such and offensive guru, he should be able to take pretty much the same players and turn them into a top 5 scoring offense.

Make minor changes to the "O" and overhaul the "D".

As has been said AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN, other than maybe RB, he has not changed a single starter on offense. Where are you getting this idea that he won't be using pretty much the same players we used last season?

[DenBronx]

my thoughts exactlly. if mcd is SOOOO much better than shanny then wow....were going to set records that cant be touched for the next 200 years! :salute:

[turftoad]

As has been said AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN, other than maybe RB, he has not changed a single starter on offense. Where are you getting this idea that he won't be using pretty much the same players we used last season?

Thats what I said.

[DenBronx]

i wonder how many weeks it will take until mcd goes oh $#!* i should have spent more time fixing the defense.

i say week 2 we'll see a mcd meltdown...

[Lonestar]

JR, I think you should just turn into a NE fan. I mean, you mention them in just about every post. :shocked:

We ARE NOT the New England Patriots and McD is NOT Belichick (SP).
Just because he is our new head coach doesn't mean we get the same results as NE the past few years.
McD is a rookie coach, he hasn't gotten a win under his belt as such yet.

I'm with Gem, I'm not overly immpessed with what he's shown on "D" either.

I do like the Nolan hire. I do like some of the young DL he's brough in, even if they haven't proven themselves yet. That said, they are still unproven.

We brought in some good DB's. However, Dawkins is 35 yrs old and on the downside. He's not what he used to be. Yeah, he's a good leader, I'll give him that.
Other than that, we brought in a couple of average at best DB's. Both new starters brought in are 30 yrs old. Our new MLB is 30 yrs old. I hope they can hold up for a couple of years and I hope we draft replacements for them for down the road.

Right now:
Saftey = 35
Saftey = 30
Both CBs = 30

So, I do hope we stick to drafting "D" this year.

Yep, we were 2nd in yards and 16th inn points last year. Well, if McD is such and offensive guru, he should be able to take pretty much the same players and turn them into a top 5 scoring offense.

Make minor changes to the "O" and overhaul the "D".

what is not to admire with NE they and PIT have owned the AFC since we lost the crown.. and have gotten stronger in spite of "should be" drafting last all those years..

How many folks here hate NE because they are so good at just about everything.. LOTS they should let go of the hate and take a look at why they win so consistently.. they have given up more talent over the past decade than we have had.. and they STILL win..

Yes we have gotten old all of a sudden but that was to be expected considering all of the FUBARs in the draft since 1999..

Now we essentially have to start over and it will take a coupled of years to get back into the middle of the pack for defenses.. UNLESS we strike gold a couple of time in the draft this year and next ON D..

[turftoad]

McD does not yet = Belichick

The Broncos are NOT the Patriots.

I agree that we have not been an awesome drafting team for a while. But............ the last 2 years aren't looking to bad.
That said, the Pats also had good GM's to handle personel decisions. We don't have a former Pats GM.

Belichick is not the GM there.

[Lonestar]

i wonder how many weeks it will take until mcd goes oh $#!* i should have spent more time fixing the defense.

what else could he have done in FA. How many more coaches could he have hired?

Come on folks there is only so much money and so many of the skells to fire after that we have to Wait till the draft.. and JUN 1 cuts not to mention training camp cuts..

Anyone that thought this defense could be fixed immediately needs to get a reservation at:

Bellevue Hospital Center
462 First Avenue New York, New York 10016
Inpatient Psychiatry

Referral Office phone: (212)-562-1011

http://specialties.nychhc.org/details.aspx?service_id=371&facility_id=1

[honz]

As has been said AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN, other than maybe RB, he has not changed a single starter on offense. Where are you getting this idea that he won't be using pretty much the same players we used last season?
Don't forget our dynamic receiving duo, "The Jackson Two".

[BroncoWave]

i wonder how many weeks it will take until mcd goes oh $#!* i should have spent more time fixing the defense.

i say week 2 we'll see a mcd meltdown...

Ok then O Smart One, what would you recommend him do to fix the defense that he hasn't done already? Do you really think that just because he has been doing some things to change the offense that he hasn't been doing his due diligence on the defense as well? That is absolutely ridiculous. He has done a great deal of things to try and improve the defense thus far. If the defense doesn't improve at the rate you are hoping for next season, it won't be because he didn't put enough time into fixing the defense.

[Lonestar]

McD does not yet = Belichick

The Broncos are NOT the Patriots.

I agree that we have not been an awesome drafting team for a while. But............ the last 2 out of three years aren't looking to bad.
That said, the Pats also had good GM's to handle personel decisions. We don't have a former Pats GM.

Belichick is not the GM there.

edited for accuracy

your correct we do not have the NE system YET but so many are afraid to move from mikeys system to a proven winner it scares me..

I'm glad that Pat dipped into that well.. as it is a good and deep one with proven results since we were king of the hill..

I do not understand why other than out of jealousy why folks hate NE so much..

When you look at what they have accomplished I'll be happy with half of it the next 5-6 years..

[turftoad]

I'll take two out of three good drafts any time.

Not afraid to move away from Shanny offense. I am a little sceptical of moving to NE's though.

Mangini = fail
Romeo = fail
Weiss = fail

I know there are a couple other failures also but can't recall thier names.

Just because McD comes from NE doesn't automatically mean that he will succeed.

Again, McD doesNOT yet = Belichick
The Broncos are NOT the Patriots

[Lonestar]

Ok then O Smart One, what would you recommend him do to fix the defense that he hasn't done already? Do you really think that just because he has been doing some things to change the offense that he hasn't been doing his due diligence on the defense as well? That is absolutely ridiculous. He has done a great deal of things to try and improve the defense thus far. If the defense doesn't improve at the rate you are hoping for next season, it won't be because he didn't put enough time into fixing the defense.


He:
fired the entire defense coaching staff
hired some of the top guys as position coaches
hired perhaps one of the top two guys for 3-4 in the NFL
cut lose almost the entire starting defensive team from last year

kept only those few that might be able to play in a 3-4
got some veteran "leaders" in FA proven players with a few years left on the odometer


just what else could he have done so far?..:confused:

[Lonestar]

I'll take two out of three good drafts any time.

Not afraid to move away from Shanny offense. I am a little sceptical of moving to NE's though.

Mangini = fail
Romeo = fail
Weiss = fail

I know there are a couple other failures also but can't recall thier names.

Just because McD comes from NE doesn't automatically mean that he will succeed.

Again, McD doesNOT yet = Belichick
The Broncos are NOT the Patriots

mangini failed mostly because of the FO wanting Brett and placing all of their hopes on him and while, until his shoulder failed, they were looking good..

Your correct Josh is not Billy.. hopefully he will learn all the good parts from him and become his own man..

I would not mind being as successful as NE has been since craft took over would you?

[turftoad]

mangini failed mostly because of the FO wanting Brett and placing all of their hopes on him and while, until his shoulder failed, they were looking good..

Your correct Josh is not Billy.. hopefully he will learn all the good parts from him and become his own man..

I would not mind being as successful as NE has been since craft took over would you?

Good excuse for Mangini. We'll see what he does in his second go around. I think the FO had something to with bringing in Favre also and it's the same FO from last year.

Anyway, bottom line, not many of Billy's boys have had much success.

All we can do is hope that McD is the exception of that rule.

[Lonestar]

Good excuse for Mangini. We'll see what he does in his second go around. I think the FO had something to with bringing in Favre also and it's the same FO from last year.

Anyway, bottom line, not many of Billy's boys have had much success.

All we can do is hope that McD is the exception of that rule.


I had heard this out of NYC I get their stations on Direct TV so listen to the out of town sports alot to see what else is going on..

That was the prevailing thought that the owner wanted another Broadway Joe in Brett and they brought him in over the objection of mangini..

and while he was playing lights out games 3-11 or so (took him a couple of games to figure out were the latrine was) and until his shoulder went south he was looking pretty good.. they collapsed much like we did in those last few games..

The speculation was they were going to keep mangini because everyone knew he was not the reason for the collapse.. But who knows they wanted a fresh start again..

[GEM]

edited for accuracy

your correct we do not have the NE system YET but so many are afraid to move from mikeys system to a proven winner it scares me..

I'm glad that Pat dipped into that well.. as it is a good and deep one with proven results since we were king of the hill..

I do not understand why other than out of jealousy why folks hate NE so much..

When you look at what they have accomplished I'll be happy with half of it the next 5-6 years..


But it's a proven winner under Bellyache....it's been an utter failure under his coaching tree when taken out of NE.

[Day1BroncoFan]

What I know is that the Shanny plan hasn't been working for say about 10 years now. Not that I don't like him I just think a change was in order.

I'll give McDaniels a chance now. I say at least 3 or 4 years. I don't think it's time to condemn him yet we haven't even played a game with him as HC.

I don't expect miracles out of him just something OK this year and better thereafter.

[Lonestar]

But it's a proven winner under Bellyache....it's been an utter failure under his coaching tree when taken out of NE.


also got to remember where these guys wound up.. so far no one has been a winner in CLE.. CINCY is a joke. ND almost as big a joke..

I think what I have seen from his personnel moves Josh has a great chance in bringing us back to respectability..

I think it all depends on the lcoal press.. and PAT..