Middle Ground

[JKcatch724]

This thread is dedicated to all of the rational fans taking their seat firmly on the top of the fence. We've all got people on both sides trying to pull us into one side or the other, but it seems to me that there is only one rational viewpoint on this matter.

I like Jay Cutler. And I like Josh McDaniels. This is the message from the middle ground (and I know it's not going to be popular because most have firmly planted themselves with TEAM CUTLER/COOK or TEAM FRONT OFFICE): I blame McDaniels for listening to/initiating/actively seeking trade offers. Clearly, Jay Cutler in exchange for Matt Cassel is a downgrade in terms of talent. McDaniels shouldn't have dicked around with the offense... yada yada.

BUT. He IS the head coach, and it (although I hate this phrase) is a business. He clearly wants Jay to be his quarterback, and Jay is being as stubborn as a mule in his stance, going as far as not even responding to his text messages. He should obviously stop listening to Bus and stop play football.

So, both are at fault. First McD, then Jay. But no matter the outcome, it better translate to a good football team this upcoming season.

[Dirk]

I agree. They are at a point where they need to put it behind them.

Josh and Jay need to talk one on one and put it to bed.

If Josh can just tell Jay that he is their QB and that he HAS to have the full attention of the team in the Head Coach capacity and that when he speaks publically, he is not only talking to the media/fans, he is also talking to the team and he needs Jay to be on board with what is being said.

A little behind closed doors meeting between Josh and Jay ALONE will fix the whole issue.

Josh needs to do his job, and Jay needs to do his job. Both as leaders for the success of the team. Period.

[CoachChaz]

Thank God there are more that are capable of being rational. I'll stick to my route. NONE of us can make any determination on what has happened with all this because NONE of us know anything about it other than a few leaks here and there. It all comes from the media and anything that comes straight from anyone's mouth seems to be opposite of what the other said in the he said/she said game.

When someone can show me that Jay is right or that McD is right, then I'll jump on board.

[drewloc]

Thank God there are more that are capable of being rational. I'll stick to my route. NONE of us can make any determination on what has happened with all this because NONE of us know anything about it other than a few leaks here and there. It all comes from the media and anything that comes straight from anyone's mouth seems to be opposite of what the other said in the he said/she said game.

When someone can show me that Jay is right or that McD is right, then I'll jump on board.

100% agree Coach. Until there is DIRECT QUOTES from BOTH McD and Cutler, I'm going to reserve judgement. It's silly how much stuff is conjured up from the classic "my sources told me that blah, blah, blah."

[CoachChaz]

100% agree Coach. Until there is DIRECT QUOTES from BOTH McD and Cutler, I'm going to reserve judgement. It's silly how much stuff is conjured up from the classic "my sources told me that blah, blah, blah."

My favorite one is when someone says something simple and it gets translated into something completely different.

"Jay is our quarterback" = "Jay is a dick and I hate him"

[Flatinum]

I saw a coach last night say the words "Jays our QB", "Jays our QB", "Jays our QB" and "I look forward to working with him". Those words came out of his mouth. I'll take that for exactly what it is - The head coach of the Broncos is saying - Jay is the QB of his team.

Now all the McDaniels haters out there will say - he said those words with a smirk on his face so how can you believe him. He also said "he can't predict the future when it comes to Cutler". This is a fact - no one can predict the future. But McDaniels bashers will come out and say - see he does want to trade Jay, the man can't be trusted.

Jay has to "man up"- as Primetime said, quit whining and prepare to be the QB of the Broncos this season. The longer this goes on the more and more it looks like Jay and Bus don't want to repair the relationship and want out of Denver.

Coach also said - "This is an issue that needs to be resolved between Jay and myself and not through the media and not through different types of avenues," McDaniels said. "This is a thing where we need to sit in the same room and we need to talk and we need to continue to talk until it's right." I would love to see the spin Jay supporters put on this one.


As a life long diehard Broncos fan I'm not going to sympathsize with some one who wants out of the blue and orange. Jay has a chance now to help repair the situation that he DIDN'T start, if he chooses not to - good riddance.

[Shazam!]

I'm here firmly on the fence.

Did McD screw up? Yes. Did Cutler too? Yes, from the moment McD was named HC.

I won't trash McDaniels until the team is floundering on the field. I'll give him a fair shake until I see him in-games.

[TXBRONC]

I think I have said before there is enough blame to go around.

[Shazam!]

You're right Tex, but people keep crying about McD like he's trying to destroy this team, but Cutler has a hand in all this nonsense too. Both parties are at fault. Even when McD says 'He's my QB' that doesn't make people happy. Time to mend this crap already. We should be talking about Denver's MANY NEEDS for the Draft instead of this garbage.

[claymore]

You're right Tex, but people keep crying about McD like he's trying to destroy this team, but Cutler has a hand in all this nonsense too. Both parties are at fault. Time to mend this crap already.

McD has caused more damage to this team than he has helped it. Litteraly it will take years to see if it was worth it.

[Shazam!]

McD has caused more damage to this team than he has helped it. Litteraly it will take years to see if it was worth it.

Try by Week 5.

[claymore]

Try by Week 5.

That only works if we trade Cutler. If we keep Cutler, we will know when its time to resign him.

[TXBRONC]

You're right Tex, but people keep crying about McD like he's trying to destroy this team, but Cutler has a hand in all this nonsense too. Both parties are at fault. Even when McD says 'He's my QB' that doesn't make people happy. Time to mend this crap already. We should be talking about Denver's MANY NEEDS for the Draft instead of this garbage.

I know and have people who want to lay all off on Jay as well. Nevertheless it's time for this thing to end one way or the other.

[shank]

i don't think there is a team CUTLER/COOK. i hope to god that no broncos fan is on any team with Cook on it...

i'm on team cutler, but it's not because i think jay is a god or that he is untouchable. he has handled the situation poorly and taken a lot of bad advice... but i want him to be the QB of the denver broncos.

i am on team cutler because of mike leach. coach can minimize this as much as possible, but to me, McD came in and cut a long time successful bronco, one of our bright spots, so that he could pay more to a friend in a lateral move. THAT is why i don't trust McD's people skills or business practices until he gets out of the holes he has dug in his young coaching career.

[CoachChaz]

When the business habits with a long snapper are crucial to a coaches/team's success...I am scared.

The Leach/Paxton situation is petty.

[WARHORSE]

The fact is, we are in a hailstorm of controversy, and this because of McD.

Not Cutler.

I completely agree with Shawshank in saying that a move to make Cassell QB over Cutler is in the eyes of McD.....at most....a LATERAL one in terms of ability vs knowledge of the offense.......but a backwards one in terms of salary, contract issues and forward thinking.

Dont think the players arent cognizant of this. Stokely obviously isnt and has stated so in his remarks about Leach.

Not saying Cutler cant move again to help Josh overcome his mistake, but I understand why he doesnt. He already has, and Josh bit his hand. (Cutlers view)

He moved once already, and he was met with what he considers antagonistic statements. Now, Cutler is young, but one thing he isnt, is dumb. He knows what 'antagonistic' means, and in the face of what had happened, McDaniels obviously didnt recognize his chance to assure Jay he wont be traded now, or on draft day, or thereafter.

He did the opposite, and that being with full knowledge of what was already taking place.

Now, his 'rookie' behavior is getting under the skin of the Denver media.

Another dark move in a dark time, and someone needs to help the man out.

Where you at Bowlen?

[CoachChaz]

Just out of curiosoty...does anyone care...

How much we pay a player
What Stokely thinks
What the media thinks of a coach

...as long as we win games?

[TXBRONC]

Just out of curiosoty...does anyone care...

How much we pay a player
What Stokely thinks
What the media thinks of a coach

...as long as we win games?

We haven't won any games yet, and be fair we haven't lost any yet either.

[NightTrainLayne]

Here's to the middle ground:

When this is all settled, everyone involved from McD, to Cutler, to Bowlen and the rest of the team/organization will be better for it.

Hopefully, we're all better TOGETHER as one team working together. All this controversy will be the starting point for the next great era of Bronco Football.

[claymore]

Here's to the middle ground:

When this is all settled, everyone involved from McD, to Cutler, to Bowlen and the rest of the team/organization will be better for it.

Hopefully, we're all better TOGETHER as one team working together. All this controversy will be the starting point for the next great era of Bronco Football.

"from the ashes arose a phoenix"

[Lonestar]

i don't think there is a team CUTLER/COOK. i hope to god that no broncos fan is on any team with Cook on it...

i'm on team cutler, but it's not because i think jay is a god or that he is untouchable. he has handled the situation poorly and taken a lot of bad advice... but i want him to be the QB of the denver broncos.

i am on team cutler because of mike leach. coach can minimize this as much as possible, but to me, McD came in and cut a long time successful bronco, one of our bright spots, so that he could pay more to a friend in a lateral move. THAT is why i don't trust McD's people skills or business practices until he gets out of the holes he has dug in his young coaching career.

If memory serves correct Leach asked to be released, so Josh released him.. it was not a unilateral move..

IMHO signing the other guy was not a move I liked but I suspect there is a method to the madness.

[bcbronc]

McD has caused more damage to this team than he has helped it. Litteraly it will take years to see if it was worth it.

he's already changed the mindset of the organization and improved the defense. both will help big time. see next comment for proof.


i
i am on team cutler because of mike leach. coach can minimize this as much as possible, but to me, McD came in and cut a long time successful bronco, one of our bright spots, so that he could pay more to a friend in a lateral move. THAT is why i don't trust McD's people skills or business practices until he gets out of the holes he has dug in his young coaching career.

if our long-snapper was one of our "bright spots" a change at the top was way over due. seriously though, how many bad snaps do you see in an average NFL season? There are some, but it's not like Leach was doing something extraordinary that was unmatched by his peers.

the whole organization was in need of a shake up. That's why I support McDaniels. But Cutler is a phenom still learning to control his superpowers and that's why I want this resolved in a way that leaves Cutler in orange and blue. bottom line, both have said/done things that they would probably (hopefully) do different if given the chance. but there's an old truism that things forged by fire become stronger. hopefully thats the case in McD/JayC's relationship.

[Lonestar]

quick everyone race to this thread now..

http://broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35807

so we can discuss the new development ad nauseam..

[shank]

If memory serves correct Leach asked to be released, so Josh released him.. it was not a unilateral move..

IMHO signing the other guy was not a move I liked but I suspect there is a method to the madness.

he was released after paxton was signed. i'm not knocking paxton's long snapping ability. he and leach are both very good. which is EXACTLY why leach knew he had no chance at the job, and there was no reason to compete with McD's buddy.

and i agree bcb that your long snapper be the brightest spot on your special teams and then cutting him is just as crazy as trying to trade the QB of your #2 ranked offense when your defense is in shambles...

leach wasn't unmatched by his peers, but he was definitely not outdone by any of his peers either. why upset that? eliminating existing chemistry when we all know that chemistry will most likely be in short supply this season...

it also shows no consideration of job performance when deciding who gets a job, no loyalty to the players (it's a business, but there are also relationships involved, as we've all come to realize), and it's blatent cronyism. Businesses can get investigated and reprimanded for cronyism... the NFL is a business isn't it?

[Lonestar]

he was released after paxton was signed. i'm not knocking paxton's long snapping ability. he and leach are both very good. which is EXACTLY why leach knew he had no chance at the job, and there was no reason to compete with McD's buddy.

and i agree bcb that your long snapper be the brightest spot on your special teams and then cutting him is just as crazy as trying to trade the QB of your #2 ranked offense when your defense is in shambles...

leach wasn't unmatched by his peers, but he was definitely not outdone by any of his peers either. why upset that? eliminating existing chemistry when we all know that chemistry will most likely be in short supply this season...

it also shows no consideration of job performance when deciding who gets a job, no loyalty to the players (it's a business, but there are also relationships involved, as we've all come to realize), and it's blatent cronyism. Businesses can get investigated and reprimanded for cronyism... the NFL is a business isn't it?


The stuff I read was Mike was pissed and emotional when he asked for his release.. right or wrong I'd have fought for the job.. and then if I were cut move on.. But that is just me..

I have always defended leach as I thought he was superb..

[shank]

The stuff I read was Mike was pissed and emotional when he asked for his release.. right or wrong I'd have fought for the job.. and then if I were cut move on.. But that is just me..

I have always defended leach as I thought he was superb..

i absolutely do not hold myself to a higher standard than mike leach's actions... i would have been totally pissed as well. and i would have wanted my release as soon as possible too for the well-being of myself and my family by giving me the best chance to get another job (it WAS the very beginning of FA after all JR). Getting cut during training camp puts him in a bad situation, and would have been stupid.

if they weren't long snappers, then i could say stay and fight for the job... how the hell can you OUTPLAY another long snapper? you're at your best when no one notices that you're on the field. both of these guys are very good, and they would both do their jobs equally well in training camp, but who's going to get the job? do you think it will be McD's acquaintance and first FA signing of his coaching career?! cause me and mike leach do.

[Lonestar]

i absolutely do not hold myself to a higher standard than mike leach's actions... i would have been totally pissed as well. and i would have wanted my release as soon as possible too for the well-being of myself and my family by giving me the best chance to get another job (it WAS the very beginning of FA after all JR). Getting cut during training camp puts him in a bad situation, and would have been stupid.

if they weren't long snappers, then i could say stay and fight for the job... how the hell can you OUTPLAY another long snapper? you're at your best when no one notices that you're on the field. both of these guys are very good, and they would both do their jobs equally well in training camp, but who's going to get the job? do you think it will be McD's acquaintance and first FA signing of his coaching career?! cause me and mike leach do.
.

well Mike is also a TE which we do not have an over abundance of and red zone blocking FB.. so that may have been some salvation..

I agree with the moving on as fast as possible If I have to, but up rooting your family because you are pissed is not a good thing either..

[shank]

.

well Mike is also a TE which we do not have an over abundance of and red zone blocking FB.. so that may have been some salvation..

I agree with the moving on as fast as possible If I have to, but up rooting your family because you are pissed is not a good thing either..

he uprooted his family because he's smart. being pissed was the bi-product of seeing that he had no way around it.

[Lonestar]

he uprooted his family because he's smart. being pissed was the bi-product of seeing that he had no way around it.

if you say so..

[TXBRONC]

The stuff I read was Mike was pissed and emotional when he asked for his release.. right or wrong I'd have fought for the job.. and then if I were cut move on.. But that is just me..

I have always defended leach as I thought he was superb..

As Shaw said Leach was released after Paxton was signed. It's kind of hard to fit for a job when you've already been released.

[bcbronc]

i absolutely do not hold myself to a higher standard than mike leach's actions... i would have been totally pissed as well. and i would have wanted my release as soon as possible too for the well-being of myself and my family by giving me the best chance to get another job (it WAS the very beginning of FA after all JR). Getting cut during training camp puts him in a bad situation, and would have been stupid.

if they weren't long snappers, then i could say stay and fight for the job... how the hell can you OUTPLAY another long snapper? you're at your best when no one notices that you're on the field. both of these guys are very good, and they would both do their jobs equally well in training camp, but who's going to get the job? do you think it will be McD's acquaintance and first FA signing of his coaching career?! cause me and mike leach do.

so, if both Leach and Paxton are good and there isn't going to be much, if any, difference in their on-field performance, why not bring in a guy that is familiar with how the "program" is going to run? plus he brings 3 SB rings with him. as long as they don't get in the way of him gripping the ball, you can never have too many rings in the dressing room.

so really, it's a little weird at first glance but nothing to be upset about. unless you're frau I guess. ;)

[EMB6903]

The fact is, we are in a hailstorm of controversy, and this because of McD.

Not Cutler.

I completely agree with Shawshank in saying that a move to make Cassell QB over Cutler is in the eyes of McD.....at most....a LATERAL one in terms of ability vs knowledge of the offense.......but a backwards one in terms of salary, contract issues and forward thinking.

Dont think the players arent cognizant of this. Stokely obviously isnt and has stated so in his remarks about Leach.

Not saying Cutler cant move again to help Josh overcome his mistake, but I understand why he doesnt. He already has, and Josh bit his hand. (Cutlers view)

He moved once already, and he was met with what he considers antagonistic statements. Now, Cutler is young, but one thing he isnt, is dumb. He knows what 'antagonistic' means, and in the face of what had happened, McDaniels obviously didnt recognize his chance to assure Jay he wont be traded now, or on draft day, or thereafter.

He did the opposite, and that being with full knowledge of what was already taking place.

Now, his 'rookie' behavior is getting under the skin of the Denver media.

Another dark move in a dark time, and someone needs to help the man out.

Where you at Bowlen?

why dont you think Cutler is to blame?

Im as big of a Cutler fan as there is but hes as big of a blame as anybody.... He has acted like a child the last 2 months.

[shank]

so, if both Leach and Paxton are good and there isn't going to be much, if any, difference in their on-field performance, why not bring in a guy that is familiar with how the "program" is going to run? plus he brings 3 SB rings with him. as long as they don't get in the way of him gripping the ball, you can never have too many rings in the dressing room.

so really, it's a little weird at first glance but nothing to be upset about. unless you're frau I guess. ;)

there is no "program" to a long snapper.

why not bring another guy in? because it will piss of (a percentage) of the fans and players for no on-field benefit.

[bcbronc]

there is no "program" to a long snapper.

why not bring another guy in? because it will piss of (a percentage) of the fans and players for no on-field benefit.

the long-snapper has to buy into the team philosphy just like everyone else. every coach has their own way of doing things. Paxton has experience with the way McDaniels is going to run his ship and he brings rings with him.

really though, if Shanny had decided to change long-snappers would anyone have even batted an eye? It seems a little silly to me to be upset over changing long snappers.

[TXBRONC]

so, if both Leach and Paxton are good and there isn't going to be much, if any, difference in their on-field performance, why not bring in a guy that is familiar with how the "program" is going to run? plus he brings 3 SB rings with him. as long as they don't get in the way of him gripping the ball, you can never have too many rings in the dressing room.

so really, it's a little weird at first glance but nothing to be upset about. unless you're frau I guess. ;)

If I'm not mistaken McDaniels is paying Paxton more money to do the same job Leach was doing.

[weazel]

nope, its all McDaniels fault! You will never turn me to the dark side

[TXBRONC]

the long-snapper has to buy into the team philosphy just like everyone else. every coach has their own way of doing things. Paxton has experience with the way McDaniels is going to run his ship and he brings rings with him.

really though, if Shanny had decided to change long-snappers would anyone have even batted an eye? It seems a little silly to me to be upset over changing long snappers.

Yeah there some people who frequent this board that would have raised a stink.

[weazel]

I dont know, Leach was the gel that held this whole team together. Without him we have no hope. I mean come on, he is Leach!


Im sorry, I am so bored at work.

[TXBRONC]

I dont know, Leach was the gel that held this whole team together. Without him we have no hope. I mean come on, he is Leach!


Im sorry, I am so bored at work.

Well Denver wasn't paying Leach as much as we are now paying Paxton to do the same job.

[tubby]

http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site36/2009/0324/20090324__mcdaniels~p1.jpg

[fcspikeit]

When the business habits with a long snapper are crucial to a coaches/team's success...I am scared.

The Leach/Paxton situation is petty.

If the LS position means so little why did Leach need to be cut? Either it was a football move or it wasn't.. Either it was done to better the team or it wasn't..

It will be pretty hard for anyone to convince me Paxtan is a better LS then Leach.

[Lonestar]

If the LS position means so little why did Leach need to be cut? Either it was a football move or it wasn't.. Either it was done to better the team or it wasn't..

It will be pretty hard for anyone to convince me Paxtan is a better LS then Leach.


it will be hard to convince you that anything Josh does is a good idea.. :coffee:

[fcspikeit]

it will be hard to convince you that anything Josh does is a good idea.. :coffee:

Does that mean you believe cutting Leach was a good idea or you simply don't care to question any move McDaniels makes? :coffee:

[fcspikeit]

it will be hard to convince you that anything Josh does is a good idea.. :coffee:

Also, that isn't true, if McDaniels doesn't find an offer to good to pass up for Cutler I will think it was a damn good idea! :salute:

If he really intends to patch things up with Cutler, that is also a damn good idea! :elefant:

I will give him the benefit of doubt that now he does want to mend the situation with Cutler... We'll see how it goes, time will tell.

[BRONCOSFREAK765]

I think we still have a long 31 days. 10 hours, 35 mins, and 10 secs until the draft.

[Lonestar]

Does that mean you believe cutting Leach was a good idea or you simply don't care to question any move McDaniels makes? :coffee:

I have been on record saying that signing the other guy made no sense to me.

But I defend his right to do it.

For the record Leach asked to be released and was not cut prior to him asking. Lest we try to rewrite history on this chapter.

[JKcatch724]

Isn't the long snapper situation the least of our worries right now?