Here's The QB Elway Should Draft in the 2nd Round

[Npba900]

Elway must pull the trigger in the 2nd round on this QB because by the 3rd round this QB will be gone.

He's ready to play in the NFL right away, and the Broncos don't have time to wait around for someone to develop from project status to legitimate starter.

He can make all of the necessary throws with good zip on his passes and can fit ball into small windows.

He is a very good leader and takes charge of the huddle. He keeps his poise in the pocket when under pressure and his eyes down field until the last possible second.

One true sign of a good QB is leadership, but another sign is the ability of being a consistent performer against inferior teams, the teams that are just as good as you, and against the top ranked teams.

He has shown the ability to perform well against all three phases. He should be a very good starting QB with proper coaching and better techniques.

He has the arm strength to make all of the deep throws. Passes are placed where only the receiver can make a play on the ball for the most part. His passes are sometimes high and off target because of not getting his feet set in the pocket.

He really separated himself from the rest of the quarterbacks down in Mobile. In addition to showing good velocity and accuracy with his throws, he stands out due to his maturity as well.

He appears to be communicating the best with his receivers and backs, making sure they lineup properly and acknowledging them when they make great catches. Just really looks to be a leader on the field.

Who is this Quarterback??????

[WARHORSE]

Uncle Rico?

[Npba900]

Uncle Rico.

Nope! It's Uncle.......Brandon Weeden---and Tebow is his nephew!:D

Brandon Weeden = The true Kurt Warner of the 2012 draft.

[UnderArmour]

QB? I think you meant to type CB. Our secondary sucked big time when we played New England. Defense definitely needs some more help so that Von and Doom's efforts aren't in vain.

[chazoe60]

To me drafting Weeden would be akin to picking up a very unexciting FA. His age just kills it for me. I want either Tebow to improve or a young guy to build with. Weeden is just an inexperienced old rookie who would be damn near retirement age by the time he hits his stride in the nfl.

[Npba900]

QB? I think you meant to type CB. Our secondary sucked big time when we played New England. Defense definitely needs some more help so that Von and Doom's efforts aren't in vain.

Well I was thinking we could use our 1st round pick at 25 to address the CB need.

[Npba900]

To me drafting Weeden would be akin to picking up a very unexciting FA. His age just kills it for me. I want either Tebow to improve or a young guy to build with. Weeden is just an inexperienced old rookie who would be damn near retirement age by the time he hits his stride in the nfl.

I agree his age could be a concern. But I'm thinking he's a young 28 year old, due to not having taken a lot of wear-n-tear as a QB at the NFL level.

Let's his body and arm and overall well being is perhaps 24 years old. I think Weeden is well worth the risk.

I'd consider waiting taken him in 3rd but Weeden would be long gone. He turned heads and impressed at the Senior Bowl and will continue to do so at Indy.

[Davii]

Thank god you don't run this team...

[Npba900]

Thank god you don't run this team...

Thank goodness you aren't running the team either!:D

[Davii]

Thank goodness you aren't running the team either!:D

Agreed. The guys that get paid to do it now are smarter.

[Npba900]

Agreed. The guys that get paid to do it now are smarter.

Says who??????:tsk:

[Davii]

Says who??????:tsk:

Anyone in the football world.

[Northman]

QB? I think you meant to type CB. Our secondary sucked big time when we played New England. Defense definitely needs some more help so that Von and Doom's efforts aren't in vain.

On the flipside, scoring more than 10 pts vs the 31st ranked defense might go a long way too.

[topscribe]

I agree his age could be a concern. But I'm thinking he's a young 28 year old, due to not having taken a lot of wear-n-tear as a QB at the NFL level.

Let's his body and arm and overall well being is perhaps 24 years old. I think Weeden is well worth the risk.

I'd consider waiting taken him in 3rd but Weeden would be long gone. He turned heads and impressed at the Senior Bowl and will continue to do so at Indy.

It has been pointed out that QBs can perform at a high level until they're
pushing 40, and real life examples have been given, but panic still prevails
over Weeden's age. This guy could very easily have a 10-to 12-year
career ahead of him.

-----

[Jsteve01]

People keep acting like the only concern with weeden is age. Arm problems are what led him to give up baseball and he's coming from a spread. The second is far too early for that many flags

[topscribe]

People keep acting like the only concern with weeden is age. Arm problems are what led him to give up baseball and he's coming from a spread. The second is far too early for that many flags

Well, age obviously is not a concern for me. Arm problems, however, is a
different story. But it was my understanding that Weeden injured his non-
throwing arm. Did I hear wrong?

-----

[jhildebrand]

Dude. I have been saying Weeden for months now.

Kid will be a monster. Forget about his age.

[Jsteve01]

Well, age obviously is not a concern for me. Arm problems, however, is a
different story. But it was my understanding that Weeden injured his non-
throwing arm. Did I hear wrong?

-----

I doubt he developed shoulder problems in his non throwing shoulder, and if he did why would they keep him from succeeding in baseball. I'll be honest I like the kid overall but he seems like an IR report waiting to happen and I don't use second rounders on that type of player.

[Davii]

Well, age obviously is not a concern for me. Arm problems, however, is a
different story. But it was my understanding that Weeden injured his non-
throwing arm. Did I hear wrong?

-----

It was his throwing arm.

Sports illustrated (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1177187/index.htm)

[Davii]

I doubt he developed shoulder problems in his non throwing shoulder, and if he did why would they keep him from succeeding in baseball. I'll be honest I like the kid overall but he seems like an IR report waiting to happen and I don't use second rounders on that type of player.

A late round flyer on a 28 year old rookie, with known throwing shoulder injury that affected his fastball enough to end his baseball career, and who played in a spread offense...

MAYBE... 3rd round and up? That would be foolish IMO. Too many other needs to take a chance like that.

[Dapper Dan]

http://i39.tinypic.com/nez39j.jpg

[topscribe]

A late round flyer on a 28 year old rookie, with known throwing shoulder injury that affected his fastball enough to end his baseball career, and who played in a spread offense...

MAYBE... 3rd round and up? That would be foolish IMO. Too many other needs to take a chance like that.

Absolutely, don't want to take a chance like that. However, I doubt that
EFX are just going to flip a coin and take whatever comes up. I'm sure
they know what they're doing. So, whatever they do, I'm confident they
will be doing it carefully and will not be taking a chance like that, even if
they do draft Weeden . . .

-----

[RebelRocker]

Absolutely, don't want to take a chance like that. However, I doubt that
EFX are just going to flip a coin and take whatever comes up. I'm sure
they know what they're doing. So, whatever they do, I'm confident they
will be doing it carefully and will not be taking a chance like that, even if
they do draft Weeden . . .

-----

I have a feeling that it will come down to Osweiler and Weeden, with EFX preferring the youth and upside of Osweiler.


It all depends on who goes where and in what round. If Osweiler is taken before our 2nd pick and Weeden is available, I would think there's a good chance we take him. If Weeden is taken and Osweiler falls to us, I think that's the ideal situation for EFX. If both are still available, that's when it'll get real interesting.

[dogfish]

A late round flyer on a 28 year old rookie, with known throwing shoulder injury that affected his fastball enough to end his baseball career, and who played in a spread offense...

MAYBE... 3rd round and up? That would be foolish IMO. Too many other needs to take a chance like that.

the idea of spending a second on that type of player is a non-starter. . . you spend three years developing him for a two-three year prime before his physical skills start to decline. . . i think not. . .

[Dirk]

the idea of spending a second on that type of player is a non-starter. . . you spend three years developing him for a two-three year prime before his physical skills start to decline. . . i think not. . .

Exactly how I feel.

They need to grab a FA vet to be the backup and is a QB is there in the 4th take one.

[SOCALORADO.]

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/images/photos/001/517/090/131558462_crop_650x440.jpg?1325811570

[CoachChaz]

He can make all of the necessary throws with good zip on his passes and can fit ball into small windows. Especially the ones he forces into windows that dont exist.

He is a very good leader and takes charge of the huddle. He keeps his poise in the pocket when under pressure and his eyes down field until the last possible second.

One true sign of a good QB is leadership, but another sign is the ability of being a consistent performer against inferior teams, the teams that are just as good as you, and against the top ranked teams. Tell that to Iowa State

He has shown the ability to perform well against all three phases. He should be a very good starting QB with proper coaching and better techniques. My 16 year old could be a very good QB with proper coaching and better techniques. How does this separate Weeden from the rest?

He has the arm strength to make all of the deep throws. Passes are placed where only the receiver can make a play on the ball for the most part. His passes are sometimes high and off target because of not getting his feet set in the pocket. He forces balls into bad places and has a tendency to rely on arm strength that isnt what he seems to think it is.


He really separated himself from the rest of the quarterbacks down in Mobile. In addition to showing good velocity and accuracy with his throws, he stands out due to his maturity as well. Did he outperform Luck, RG3, Tannehill, etc. in Mobile?

He appears to be communicating the best with his receivers and backs, making sure they lineup properly and acknowledging them when they make great catches. Just really looks to be a leader on the field. Now we're just looking for reasons to kiss his ass

I have no problem with a team looking at Weeden as someone to create competition in camp and be a competent player as a back-up or even as a starter. But to think the kid can come in to any team and be ready to take over the reins and lead a team to the promised land is crazy. I agree that a lot of weight is put on his age, but in reality...would he be rated all that much higher if he was 22? I dont think so.

[Chef Zambini]

I doubt he developed shoulder problems in his non throwing shoulder, and if he did why would they keep him from succeeding in baseball. I'll be honest I like the kid overall but he seems like an IR report waiting to happen and I don't use second rounders on that type of player.if you were JMCD you would use a first round pick !

[Chef Zambini]

if we sign a vet QB before the draft, someone who can start and win, then we wont be drafting a QB before the 4th round.
I like K. Moore in the 4th or late third.

[Northman]

if we sign a vet QB before the draft, someone who can start and win, then we wont be drafting a QB before the 4th round.
I like K. Moore in the 4th or late third.

Unfortuantely, the last time i looked at the FA list for QB's i didnt see any that could start and win.

[RebelRocker]

Unfortuantely, the last time i looked at the FA list for QB's i didnt see any that could start and win.

Even then, which one of the qualifying QB's would WANT to come here? Jason Campbell laughed at the idea of signing with us after a reporter asked him that question the other day.

[jhildebrand]

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/images/photos/001/517/090/131558462_crop_650x440.jpg?1325811570

Would John Elway draft the reason Jack, John's son, isn't playing at ASU? :confused:

[LTC Pain]

Would John Elway draft the reason Jack, John's son, isn't playing at ASU? :confused:

I thought Jack Elway quit football a couple of years ago?

[BroncoBowlby 88]

I hope to God we don't waste our 2nd round pick on an elderly QB. He is older than Aaron Rodgers, If you want to bring in an old guy pick one who has actually played in the NFL. If we draft a QB in the 2nd round (and I hope we don't) it should be a Cousins or Osweiler, someone young and who isn't a member of the AARP.

[dogfish]

Unfortuantely, the last time i looked at the FA list for QB's i didnt see any that could start and win.

we could sign kyle orton. . .


:spit: :pound: :rofl:

[Superchop 7]

I like Foles better.......not spending my 2 on grandpa QB........maybe in the 3rd.......not the 2nd.

[LTC Pain]

we could sign kyle orton. . .


:spit: :pound: :rofl:

"lean forward and choke yourself Private Pyle!!!"

[topscribe]

we could sign kyle orton. . .


:spit: :pound: :rofl:

He wouldn't sign with Denver now if they offered him Peyton Manning type of money . . .

-----

[Dapper Dan]

He wouldn't sign with Denver now if they offered him Peyton Manning type of money . . .

-----

He doesn't care about the money. He just wants his own billboard.

[topscribe]

He doesn't care about the money. He just wants his own billboard.

:lol:

-----

[chazoe60]

He wouldn't sign with Denver now if they offered him Peyton Manning type of money . . .

-----
Well, that's a relief to about 98% of Bronco fans.

[topscribe]

Well, that's a relief to about 98% of Bronco fans.

At least of all those living in your house, right? ;)

-----

[chazoe60]

At least of all those living in your house, right? ;)

-----
That would be 100% in my house.

[topscribe]

That would be 100% in my house.

You could have fooled me . . . :D

-----

[dogfish]

He wouldn't sign with Denver now if they offered him Peyton Manning type of money . . .

-----

that's cool, i'm fairly certain they weren't going to anyway. . .

:D


also, FTR, chaz doesn't have more two-three dozen illegal central americans living in his shack, at best. . . it's a relatively pedestrian number. . .

[TXBRONC]

we could sign kyle orton. . .


:spit: :pound: :rofl:

There might actually be some people who would be up for doing just that.

[BORDERLINE]

Even then, which one of the qualifying QB's would WANT to come here? Jason Campbell laughed at the idea of signing with us after a reporter asked him that question the other day.

All that may change depending on how much interest he garners. Imagine him sitting job less at the start of TC. If the Broncos call I doubt he would be laughing.

[Npba900]

All that may change depending on how much interest he garners. Imagine him sitting job less at the start of TC. If the Broncos call I doubt he would be laughing.

Campbell is a real warrior and there's no quit in him. Through-out his entire career he has yet to have the fortune to play in a stable system whereas is offense coordinator was there for at least 4 years or more.

It's time for Campbell to land with a stable organization that can provide him the continuity type long term Off. Coord. in a system that best fits his talents........wouldn't be bad if he talent around him as well.

[Lancane]

Would John Elway draft the reason Jack, John's son, isn't playing at ASU? :confused:

Jack quit of his own accord and admitted he didn't like football as much as his father, it had nothing to do with Osweiler.


"He's just tired of football and wants to do something else with his life," ASU coach Dennis Erickson said Monday. "He made a decision, and we all understand it. He would have played here eventually."

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/sports/asu/articles/2009/04/06/20090406asufoot0407.html#ixzz1npLF1Lio

Jack and Brock were both freshman quarterbacks together in 2009 and we're friends, despite that supposed rumors that stated otherwise.

And by the way there is a third connection that could play in Osweiler coming to Denver, one even more eminent then John Elway - Dennis Erickson connection or even the Jack Elway - Brock Osweiler connection. And that would be the Coach Mazzone connection, see Tim Tebow has been working out with Coach Mazzone at UCLA, as we know he coached Brock Osweiler...Tebow, Osweiler and Rivers were getting together with Coach Mazzone before the combine to workout together and again after before Osweiler's Pro-Day. It's quite possible because of Tebow's familiarity along with the others could be a factor for Denver should they be thinking of the two. Just food for thought!

;)

[BORDERLINE]

Campbell is a real warrior and there's no quit in him. Through-out his entire career he has yet to have the fortune to play in a stable system whereas is offense coordinator was there for at least 4 years or more.

It's time for Campbell to land with a stable organization that can provide him the continuity type long term Off. Coord. in a system that best fits his talents........wouldn't be bad if he talent around him as well.

and all that might be true. But if it was gonna happen IT should have happened already. Average QB's are a dime a dozen.

[Npba900]

and all that might be true. But if it was gonna happen IT should have happened already. Average QB's are a dime a dozen.

Keep in mind average teams are a dime dozen despite how much they try to improve themselves to get to the elite level.

[turftoad]

and all that might be true. But if it was gonna happen IT should have happened already. Average QB's are a dime a dozen.

And thats what we have right now. I'm all for drafting or bringing in free agents to compete for the job.

[BORDERLINE]

And thats what we have right now. I'm all for drafting or bringing in free agents to compete for the job.

I'm all for getting Jason Campbell or that back-up from Pitt (not batch) the names escapes me. Both look mobile enough and Campbell for sure is a better passer than Tebow (at the moment). They can be a nice back-up in case Quinn isn't retained.

[turftoad]

I'm all for getting Jason Campbell or that back-up from Pitt (not batch) the names escapes me. Both look mobile enough and Campbell for sure is a better passer than Tebow (at the moment). They can be a nice back-up in case Quinn isn't retained.

Dude, the Broncos are looking for a starter, not a backup. I hope Tebow can get better just like everyone else, however, I don't have my head in the sand as far as Tebow goes. He needs more help and improvement than most will admit.

EFX only wishes, just wishes they still had Cutler on the roster. Yeah, Tebow may be a star but not because of his play on the field as much as for his persona stardom.
I'm tired of hearing how good he is and how good he's gonna be when he's played good for a total of about 4 quarters thus far. He's sucked more quarters than he's played even decent.
He needs to get better quick. I hope he does but I've watched the games. He's not good. Period.
Go ahead....... give me his win loss record again and how he beat the Steelers.
He had a "D" and some skill players that played way better than he did.

[BORDERLINE]

Dude, the Broncos are looking for a starter, not a backup. I hope Tebow can get better just like everyone else, however, I don't have my head in the sand as far as Tebow goes. He needs more help and improvement than most will admit.

EFX only wishes, just wishes they still had Cutler on the roster. Yeah, Tebow may be a star but not because of his play on the field as much as for his persona stardom.
I'm tired of hearing how good he is and how good he's gonna be when he's played good for a total of about 4 quarters thus far. He's sucked more quarters than he's played even decent.
He needs to get better quick. I hope he does but I've watched the games. He's not good. Period.
Go ahead....... give me his win loss record again and how he beat the Steelers.
He had a "D" and some skill players that played way better than he did.

OK i won't bring up insignificant FACTS like his WIN/loss record or Winning The WEST and a Playoff WIN against the TOP defense in the NFL. WE all know that was a FLUKE. And the only reason we even where in the playoffs was because of what other teams didn't do and not our 8 WINS.

I for one am not saying that Tebow is perfect (I don't think nobody is saying that). He needs to improve as a passer that's no secret. But leave it up to you guys and YOU make it seem TIM led us to a 4-12 record. Why do so many people come up for EXCUSES for winning. I will never get that.

But back to the topic. Bring in the aforementioned Q.B's to compete. See how that goes.:coffee:

[turftoad]

OK i won't bring up insignificant FACTS like his WIN/loss record or Winning The WEST and a Playoff WIN against the TOP defense in the NFL. WE all know that was a FLUKE. And the only reason we even where in the playoffs was because of what other teams didn't do and not our 8 WINS.

I for one am not saying that Tebow is perfect (I don't think nobody is saying that). He needs to improve as a passer that's no secret. But leave it up to you guys and YOU make it seem TIM led us to a 4-12 record. Why do so many people come up for EXCUSES for winning. I will never get that.

But back to the topic. Bring in the aforementioned Q.B's to compete. See how that goes.:coffee:

Competition for the STARTING spot.

And....thanks for confirming my "head in the sand" comment.

[BORDERLINE]

Competition for the STARTING spot.

And....thanks for confirming my "head in the sand" comment.

yeah bring them to compete for the starting job. It's Tebow's job to lose

[BORDERLINE]

Keep in mind average teams are a dime dozen despite how much they try to improve themselves to get to the elite level.

bad comparison. there's only 32 teams and a hell of a lot more average QB's to play for them. Hence the saying dime a dozen.

[RebelRocker]

yeah bring them to compete for the starting job. It's Tebow's job to lose




No shit, Sherlock. He's the only QB currently on the roster with live game experience. :tsk:

[BORDERLINE]

[/B]



No shit, Sherlock. He's the only QB currently on the roster with live game experience. :tsk:

and if you bring in Campbell or Henne, or retain Quinn. Tebow will be the ONLY QB on the roster with a playoff WIN. But that doesn't matter because????......WHY doesn't that matter???......

So you guys say we are looking for a starter. How sure are you that a 2nd round pick can come in play at a high level. And for that I mean WIN the west and a playoff game. And if you are talking free agents can you please name a few. I'd like to see the QB's you mention...

[RebelRocker]

and if you bring in Campbell or Henne, or retain Quinn. Tebow will be the ONLY QB on the roster with a playoff WIN. But that doesn't matter because????......WHY doesn't that matter???......

So you guys say we are looking for a starter. How sure are you that a 2nd round pick can come in play at a high level. And for that I mean WIN the west and a playoff game. And if you are talking free agents can you please name a few. I'd like to see the QB's you mention...


So you're saying Mark Sanchez is a great QB? He took his team to two AFC Championship games(one as a rookie).. What about Rex Grossman? He took his team to the Super Bowl. Your IQ just gets lower with every post on this board.

[Ravage!!!]

we should not draft a QB in the second round. Its a complete waste.

If you want a QB to compete for the starting job, you either take a QB in the first round, or a flyer later.

So if we feel we aren't at the stage of using our first round pick on a QB, then wait until later and see if one falls...after taking picks that can start right now. Generally speaking, you aren't going to find your quality FQB in the second round, anyway.

[Npba900]

and if you bring in Campbell or Henne, or retain Quinn. Tebow will be the ONLY QB on the roster with a playoff WIN. But that doesn't matter because????......WHY doesn't that matter???......

So you guys say we are looking for a starter. How sure are you that a 2nd round pick can come in play at a high level. And for that I mean WIN the west and a playoff game. And if you are talking free agents can you please name a few. I'd like to see the QB's you mention...

Border, here's the reality, sure Tebow won a playoff game and won the AFC west. But lets look at the big picture. Tebow took over and we were 1-4 and Tebow finished the season 1-4 and we backed into the playoffs!

I'd be sold on Tebow had he took over a 1-4 team and Fox installed an offensive scheme to MAKE Tebow throw the ball 28-35 times a game and basically let the chips fall where they may. This would have given both EFX a fair amount of time over the 11 games Tebow started to evaluate Tim. Also, by Tebow getting the opportunity to throw the ball 28-35 times a game, it would have allowed Tim to evaluate himself as to how much he needed to work on his areas of improvement.

By Fox installing the Tebow Read Option, he invariable camouflaged just how bad the 2011 Broncos were. We were not an 8-8 team in 2011 but more like a 2-5 win team at best! Now of course I'm saying we would have been a 2-5 win team with allowing Tebow to throw the ball 28-35 times a game as we should have done.

The benefit would have been Tebow would have gotten valuable experience of starting 11 games and playing from within the pocket and from behind center, which is ultimately in the end is where Tebow must learn to excel from. Instead of drafting 25th in the first round, Denver would have been drafting in the top 7.

So right now, Tebow is still a long-term Project Quarterback who's future at playing QB is up in the air. Many of Tebow's fundamental flaws should not be there for a QB who is in his mid-20's. QB's coming out of College in 2012 could come in and compete with Tebow for the starting job; and if based on pure competition of straight up reading defenses, execution, and throwing accuracy (making all the required throws), I'm not sure Tebow could beat those QB's out for the starting job. Of course Tim is aware of this fact as well.

[CoachChaz]

we should not draft a QB in the second round. Its a complete waste.

If you want a QB to compete for the starting job, you either take a QB in the first round, or a flyer later.

So if we feel we aren't at the stage of using our first round pick on a QB, then wait until later and see if one falls...after taking picks that can start right now. Generally speaking, you aren't going to find your quality FQB in the second round, anyway.

I agree with not drafting a QB this year...at least not before the 5th.

But, I kind of disagree in not being able to find a FQB outside of the 1st. The way the league and the rules are changing, I dont think it's too far fetched for a 3nd or 3rd rounder with decent accuracy to be able to develop into a 4000 yard passer

[GEM]

Well I was thinking we could use our 1st round pick at 25 to address the CB need.

Hell to the effing no. Build in the trenches with the first pick, preferably in the middle on the defensive side of the ball. No ******* way to a CB with the first.

[vandammage13]

Border, here's the reality, sure Tebow won a playoff game and won the AFC west. But lets look at the big picture. Tebow took over and we were 1-4 and Tebow finished the season 1-4 and we backed into the playoffs!

I'd be sold on Tebow had he took over a 1-4 team and Fox installed an offensive scheme to MAKE Tebow throw the ball 28-35 times a game and basically let the chips fall where they may. This would have given both EFX a fair amount of time over the 11 games Tebow started to evaluate Tim. Also, by Tebow getting the opportunity to throw the ball 28-35 times a game, it would have allowed Tim to evaluate himself as to how much he needed to work on his areas of improvement.

By Fox installing the Tebow Read Option, he invariable camouflaged just how bad the 2011 Broncos were. We were not an 8-8 team in 2011 but more like a 2-5 win team at best! Now of course I'm saying we would have been a 2-5 win team with allowing Tebow to throw the ball 28-35 times a game as we should have done.

The benefit would have been Tebow would have gotten valuable experience of starting 11 games and playing from within the pocket and from behind center, which is ultimately in the end is where Tebow must learn to excel from. Instead of drafting 25th in the first round, Denver would have been drafting in the top 7.

So right now, Tebow is still a long-term Project Quarterback who's future at playing QB is up in the air. Many of Tebow's fundamental flaws should not be there for a QB who is in his mid-20's. QB's coming out of College in 2012 could come in and compete with Tebow for the starting job; and if based on pure competition of straight up reading defenses, execution, and throwing accuracy (making all the required throws), I'm not sure Tebow could beat those QB's out for the starting job. Of course Tim is aware of this fact as well.

The coaches should have installed an offense that would have got us 2-5 wins instead of a division title and a playoff win? :confused:

Unfortunately, coaches in today's NFL don't have the luxury of losing games in the name of development....There is a lot of pressure to win, and win NOW....I don't blame the coaches for changing the offense, I commend them for it...It was clear that we didn't have the personnel to run the offense they wanted to, so they adjusted the scheme to fit the talent (what a brilliant philosophy).

Tebow's improvement will have to come in the offseason. The coaching staff is going to take the reins off of him a bit this year and see what he can do.

Tebow's already shown he has the ability to make all the throws, just not consistently.

Hopefully he can improve his consistency through the offseason...If not, then we move on.

[Npba900]

Hell to the effing no. Build in the trenches with the first pick, preferably in the middle on the defensive side of the ball. No ******* way to a CB with the first.

Doesn't matter to me. I'd much rather find a DT to draft with our 25th pick in the first round. I was only responding to a poster who said we need to address the secondary.

[GEM]

Doesn't matter to me. I'd much rather find a DT to draft with our 25th pick in the first round. I was only responding to a poster who said we need to address the secondary.

Agreed. CB's can be picked up all around the draft. I just hope they finally after freaking decades decided that the Defensive line deserves some attention.

[vandammage13]

Doesn't matter to me. I'd much rather find a DT to draft with our 25th pick in the first round. I was only responding to a poster who said we need to address the secondary.

I'm from the school of drafting the BPA with your #1 pick...If that happens to be a DT then great.

[topscribe]

and if you bring in Campbell or Henne, or retain Quinn. Tebow will be the ONLY QB on the roster with a playoff WIN. But that doesn't matter because????......WHY doesn't that matter???......

So you guys say we are looking for a starter. How sure are you that a 2nd round pick can come in play at a high level. And for that I mean WIN the west and a playoff game. And if you are talking free agents can you please name a few. I'd like to see the QB's you mention...

Elway said, in essence, that the Broncos are looking for a starter. Who
else could give the present starter competition?



So you're saying Mark Sanchez is a great QB? He took his team to two AFC Championship games(one as a rookie).. What about Rex Grossman? He took his team to the Super Bowl. Your IQ just gets lower with every post on this board.

I don't think the personal remarks are necessary, are they?

I don't believe Grossman took the Bears to the SB. Their defense took him
to the SB. But that pretty well substantiates your point, I would think . . .

-----

[vandammage13]

I don't believe Grossman took the Bears to the SB. Their defense took him to the SB. But that pretty well substantiates you point, I would think . . .

Yet when Orton was on the Bears he was a reason they won. :laugh:

[topscribe]

Hell to the effing no. Build in the trenches with the first pick, preferably in the middle on the defensive side of the ball. No ******* way to a CB with the first.

If a CB is the BPA, I wouldn't be adverse to taking him. Champ and
Goodman are pretty far along in years, and Goodman is hardly any kind of
shutdown CB, anyway. They are going to need somebody soon . . .

-----

[vandammage13]

If a CB is the BPA, I wouldn't be adverse to taking him. Champ and
Goodman are pretty far along in years, and Goodman is hardly any kind of
shutdown CB, anyway. They are going to need somebody soon . . .

-----

Finally, something I agree with Top on.

[Jsteve01]

and all that might be true. But if it was gonna happen IT should have happened already. Average QB's are a dime a dozen.

The guy hasn't had the same offensive coordinator in consecutive years since his senior year in high school. He even had the same problem at Auburn.

To put it in perspective how do you think you'd fare if every year at your job you keep the same position but literally most of your terminology and some of your responsibilities changed? I for one would be a freaking head case.

[BORDERLINE]

So you're saying Mark Sanchez is a great QB? He took his team to two AFC Championship games(one as a rookie).. What about Rex Grossman? He took his team to the Super Bowl. Your IQ just gets lower with every post on this board.

well he was a TOP TEN pick wasn't he? Those type of guys now a days have to come in and produce and well he did enough to get his team go to the AFC Championship Game 2 years in a row. Do I think He is great? NO by any means but I don't go out of my way to bash him when he obviously has accomplished certain things. He regressed a whole lot this last year. And this up-coming season will be huge as to where the Jets feel about HIM.

Rex Grossman is Rex Grossman...We seen enough of him to know what he is all about. For you to compare Tebow is pretty dumb since Tebow is only 2 years in and has not started a complete season. It's like you wanna close the book on him before the story is finished.

Why do you get so worked up and get personal. Is it because your trying to say "What Might Happen" And i'm coming back with "What DID".

[BORDERLINE]

By Fox installing the Tebow Read Option, he invariable camouflaged just how bad the 2011 Broncos were. We were not an 8-8 team in 2011 but more like a 2-5 win team at best! Now of course I'm saying we would have been a 2-5 win team with allowing Tebow to throw the ball 28-35 times a game as we should have done.

Excuses for Winning!!!!!!!!!

So what you are saying was knowing Tebow is not a solid passer. We should have passed 30+ so we could have won 2 games and drafted in the early instead of a playoff victory??

Again I will never get this line of thinking. Tebow, Now don't take this "literally" outplayed LUCK, RG3 out of the Denver Broncos starting job. If he would have came in after we where 1-4. And played the way most of you describe him. NO way we would have won anything and we would be sitting in the draft with a very very early pick. NOW, that didn't happen DID IT. He won 7 games out of 11 that remained. And with that played the Broncos out of an early round QB selection. Am I lying or making up FACTS please enlighten me?

[BORDERLINE]

The guy hasn't had the same offensive coordinator in consecutive years since his senior year in high school. He even had the same problem at Auburn.

To put it in perspective how do you think you'd fare if every year at your job you keep the same position but literally most of your terminology and some of your responsibilities changed? I for one would be a freaking head case.

There is a lot of LOVE for Campbell on here. And don't get ME wrong. I agree with you.

But don't you think the way the TEAM performed had something to do with all the coaching changes. If he would have played like a TOP TIER QB do you believe the Redskins would have lost as many games and therefore had to make changes to the coaching staff? Campbell, to me is an average QB. I haven't seen anything to prove me otherwise.

[topscribe]

well he was a TOP TEN pick wasn't he? Those type of guys now a days have to come in and produce and well he did enough to get his team go to the AFC Championship Game 2 years in a row. Do I think He is great? NO by any means but I don't go out of my way to bash him when he obviously has accomplished certain things. He regressed a whole lot this last year. And this up-coming season will be huge as to where the Jets feel about HIM.

Rex Grossman is Rex Grossman...We seen enough of him to know what he is all about. For you to compare Tebow is pretty dumb since Tebow is only 2 years in and has not started a complete season. It's like you wanna close the book on him before the story is finished.

Why do you get so worked up and get personal. Is it because your trying to say "What Might Happen" And i'm coming back with "What DID".

Okay, so Grossman is not a good comparison. Let's try Cutler, then.

Cutler was only two years in, with only five games the year before. So his
numbers were 218.6 yds/game, 63.6% comp, 88.1 QBR. He passed for a
total of 3,497 yards and rushed for 205 yards.

To review Tebow's numbers: 123 yds/game, 46.5% comp, 72.9 QBR. He
passed for a total of 1,729 yards (equivalient of 2,515 yards over 16
games) and rushed for 660 yards.

Think maybe Chicago would give us Cutler if we offered Tebow and, say, a 2nd? :confused:

-----

[RebelRocker]

well he was a TOP TEN pick wasn't he? Those type of guys now a days have to come in and produce and well he did enough to get his team go to the AFC Championship Game 2 years in a row. Do I think He is great? NO by any means but I don't go out of my way to bash him when he obviously has accomplished certain things. He regressed a whole lot this last year. And this up-coming season will be huge as to where the Jets feel about HIM.

Rex Grossman is Rex Grossman...We seen enough of him to know what he is all about. For you to compare Tebow is pretty dumb since Tebow is only 2 years in and has not started a complete season. It's like you wanna close the book on him before the story is finished.

Why do you get so worked up and get personal. Is it because your trying to say "What Might Happen" And i'm coming back with "What DID".

You are the weakest link... GOODBYE:beer:

[BORDERLINE]

Okay, so Grossman is not a good comparison. Let's try Cutler, then.

Cutler was only two years in, with only five games the year before. So his
numbers were 218.6 yds/game, 63.6% comp, 88.1 QBR. He passed for a
total of 3,497 yards and rushed for 205 yards.

To review Tebow's numbers: 123 yds/game, 46.5% comp, 72.9 QBR. He
passed for a total of 1,729 yards (equivalient of 2,515 yards over 16
games) and rushed for 660 yards.

Think maybe Chicago would give us Cutler if we offered Tebow and, say, a 2nd? :confused:

-----

I like Cutler. I believe he is very talented and has all the skills necessary to be a FQB. It was a mistake to trade him just like it was letting go of Hillis/Scheffler/Marshall. But that's for another day TOP. You did leave out all of his interceptions tough.

Cutler IMO will always have better passing numbers than Tebow. Just like Tebow will always have better rushing yardage than Cutler. I'm sure if EFX inherited the team before McDouche put it in the trash BIN. We would have been a very potent and powerful offense. Hell I remember us beating NO in a shootout in Denver with all those weapons. Who knows what could have been.

But just to get something off my chest about Cutler. The guy seems disconnected at times. And that type of apathy rubs ME the wrong way. Just saying.

[BORDERLINE]

You are the weakest link... GOODBYE:beer:

another one bites the DUST. Goodbye:cool:

[Npba900]

Excuses for Winning!!!!!!!!!

So what you are saying was knowing Tebow is not a solid passer. We should have passed 30+ so we could have won 2 games and drafted in the early instead of a playoff victory??

Again I will never get this line of thinking. Tebow, Now don't take this "literally" outplayed LUCK, RG3 out of the Denver Broncos starting job. If he would have came in after we where 1-4. And played the way most of you describe him. NO way we would have won anything and we would be sitting in the draft with a very very early pick. NOW, that didn't happen DID IT. He won 7 games out of 11 that remained. And with that played the Broncos out of an early round QB selection. Am I lying or making up FACTS please enlighten me?

Point I'm making Border I would have much rather seen this team win using the offense of the future rather than a gimmicky SEC Read Option scheme that did not work once teams figured it out. Of course once the teams figured out the Read Option, Tebow was forced to execute-perform and pass from the pocket anyway. Keep in mind that out of the 7 wins for the most part these teams had injuries to key starters and Tebow did not move the team consistently until the 4th quarter. Again, yes we won but we had extreme luck on our side and played against lousy teams. That luck will not continue in 2012.

[topscribe]

I like Cutler. I believe he is very talented and has all the skills necessary to be a FQB. It was a mistake to trade him just like it was letting go of Hillis/Scheffler/Marshall. But that's for another day TOP. You did leave out all of his interceptions tough.

Cutler IMO will always have better passing numbers than Tebow. Just like Tebow will always have better rushing yardage than Cutler. I'm sure if EFX inherited the team before McDouche put it in the trash BIN. We would have been a very potent and powerful offense. Hell I remember us beating NO in a shootout in Denver with all those weapons. Who knows what could have been.

But just to get something off my chest about Cutler. The guy seems disconnected at times. And that type of apathy rubs ME the wrong way. Just saying.

So if Tebow will always have better rushing yards than Cutler, then make
Tebow a RB. Simple. Fact is, Cutler is very mobile, terrific on his feet. But,
the point is, he doesn't have to run very often. He can throw the ball
anywhere he wants to on the field, so why should he? Tebow will always
have better rushing yards than Brady, or than Manning ever had, too. I'm
not impressed by a QB's rushing yards. Bobby Douglas and BVP were also
terrific runners. How soon will they be entering the HOF?

Oh yes, the interceptions. Well, Cutler passed for 20 TDs and 14 INTs in
his second year. Tebow passed for 12 TDs and 6 INTs (17 TDs and 9 INTs
equivalent for 16 games).

Oh yes, we also forgot fumbles. Cutler fumbled 11 times, and Tebow 14
(equivalent of 20 fumbles over 16 games).

Border, I know you're a Tebow fan, and I hate to rain on your parade. But
if anyone whose name was not Tebow had performed at the same level as
did Tebow, people might have been rioting in the streets for a change in
QBs . . .

-----

[BORDERLINE]

Point I'm making Border I would have much rather seen this team win using the offense of the future

And that's where the fan base is SPLIT. You want to WIN a certain way and that's cool I guess.

I don't care how we win frankly as long as we WIN.

As far as the defenses figuring it out. How did that work for the Steelers? (In no way i'm saying that type of offense will be successful for the long haul) Tebow will need to improve as a passer. And also you mentioned injuries on teams and LUCK, all kinds of EXCUSES as to why we WON those games.

I'm sure the Texans could have came up with more than their fare share of excuses this year if they didn't make the playoffs. But they didn't. They played the game and ended up in the DIVISIONAL ROUND. Just like US.

[BORDERLINE]

So if Tebow will always have better rushing yards than Cutler, then make
Tebow a RB. Simple. Fact is, Cutler is very mobile, terrific on his feet. But,
the point is, he doesn't have to run very often. He can throw the ball
anywhere he wants to on the field, so why should he? Tebow will always
have better rushing yards than Brady, or than Manning ever had, too. I'm
not impressed by a QB's rushing yards. Bobby Douglas and BVP were also
terrific runners. How soon will they be entering the HOF?

Oh yes, the interceptions. Well, Cutler passed for 20 TDs and 14 INTs in
his second year. Tebow passed for 12 TDs and 6 INTs (17 TDs and 9 INTs
equivalent for 16 games).

Oh yes, we also forgot fumbles. Cutler fumbled 11 times, and Tebow 14
(equivalent of 20 fumbles over 16 games).

Border, I know you're a Tebow fan, and I hate to rain on your parade. But
if anyone whose name was not Tebow had performed at the same level as
did Tebow, people might have been rioting in the streets for a change in
QBs . . .

-----


I knew you where gonna say that. I was just trying to show how they are different type of QB's.

You also left out Tebow's running touchdown's (like the game winner against the Jets).

And yes Top I am a Tebow a fan but a Broncos fan first and foremost. If Orton or anyone for that matter would have put up Tebow numbers and the same win/loss record a AFC WEST Championship and a playoff WIN. I'm sure I would have their back until they prove they are not capable of winning.

Now if Tebow would have put up those numbers and no WINS I would be singing a different TUNE.

[vandammage13]

So if Tebow will always have better rushing yards than Cutler, then make
Tebow a RB. Simple. Fact is, Cutler is very mobile, terrific on his feet. But,
the point is, he doesn't have to run very often. He can throw the ball
anywhere he wants to on the field, so why should he? Tebow will always
have better rushing yards than Brady, or than Manning ever had, too. I'm
not impressed by a QB's rushing yards. Bobby Douglas and BVP were also
terrific runners. How soon will they be entering the HOF?

Oh yes, the interceptions. Well, Cutler passed for 20 TDs and 14 INTs in
his second year. Tebow passed for 12 TDs and 6 INTs (17 TDs and 9 INTs
equivalent for 16 games).

Oh yes, we also forgot fumbles. Cutler fumbled 11 times, and Tebow 14
(equivalent of 20 fumbles over 16 games).

Border, I know you're a Tebow fan, and I hate to rain on your parade. But
if anyone whose name was not Tebow had performed at the same level as
did Tebow, people might have been rioting in the streets for a change in
QBs . . .

-----

If anyone not named Tebow would have taken over a 1-4 team, won 7 out of 11 games, and a playoff game against Big Ben and the Steelers...Yeah I think most of us would have his back.

My question to you would be would you have the QB's back if is name wasn't Tebow and he won just as many games?

[topscribe]

I knew you where gonna say that. I was just trying to show how they are different type of QB's.

You also left out Tebow's running touchdown's (like the game winner against the Jets).

And yes Top I am a Tebow a fan but a Broncos fan first and foremost. If Orton or anyone for that matter would have put up Tebow numbers and the same win/loss record a AFC WEST Championship and a playoff WIN. I'm sure I would have their back until they prove they are not capable of winning.

Now if Tebow would have put up those numbers and no WINS I would be singing a different TUNE.

Really? I'm sure you believe what you are saying now, but I'll bet you are
in the same category as most other fans. What I am saying is that Orton's
numbers flat blew away Tebow's numbers. They weren't even in the same
ball park.

Your point, however is the "AND the same W-L record and AFCW
championship." What you are overlooking, along with the rest of the Orton-
haters, is that Orton was playing with the last-place defense (as opposed
to #20 with Tebow) and the near last-place running game (as opposed to
#1 with Tebow). So you have to do a lot of skewing to use the respective
W-L records between the two.

Now, I am not mentioning this to get into another tiresome Orton debate.
What I am saying is that your fanhood of Tebow seems to be clouding
your objectivity in analyzing him.

Maybe I have some bias, too -- I'm sure I do. But before I am impressed
by Tebow's playoff record, I'm going to have to see more than backing in
through the back door via a blocked FG in a game in which he wasn't even
involved or an over-hyped passing performance in the playoffs against a
battered and crippled defense . . .

-----

[BroncoStud]

Well Tebow's "backing in" (as if he did that all by himself) is a lot more than Orton has ever accomplished. Orton hasn't started a single playoff game in his illustrious career. Not one. Some of us fans just like winning, no hollow stats compiled in garbage time.

59-14... "It's over" - Eough said.

[BORDERLINE]

Maybe I have some bias, too -- I'm sure I do.

-----

And this is true here. But i'm cool with it TOP we all can't agree on everything.

But rest assured IF Orton put up Tebow numbers. Including the WINS I would totally have his back until he PROVED he could no longer WIN in that type of fashion.

As for the "Defense" argument. WE ALL know Orton had the same defense Tebow did this past year. Orton started 1-4, could he have maybe turned it around? I don't know but it was very unlikely seeing what he did the previous 5 games.

[topscribe]

And this is true here. But i'm cool with it TOP we all can't agree on everything.

But rest assured IF Orton put up Tebow numbers. Including the WINS I would totally have his back until he PROVED he could no longer WIN in that type of fashion.

As for the "Defense" argument. WE ALL know Orton had the same defense Tebow did this past year. Orton started 1-4, could he have maybe turned it around? I don't know but it was very unlikely seeing what he did the previous 5 games.

Not really. Those first five games could have just as well been 4-1 as they
were 1-4.

Moreover, in the first few games, that was a defense with a lot of injuries,
playing in a new defensive scheme. As the season wore on, players began
to come back (such as Dumervil) and the defense began to gel. So it was
not the exact same defense this last year.

But it was the same defense when Tebow finished 1-4. How about that?

-----

[turftoad]

And this is true here. But i'm cool with it TOP we all can't agree on everything.

But rest assured IF Orton put up Tebow numbers. Including the WINS I would totally have his back until he PROVED he could no longer WIN in that type of fashion.

As for the "Defense" argument. WE ALL know Orton had the same defense Tebow did this past year. Orton started 1-4, could he have maybe turned it around? I don't know but it was very unlikely seeing what he did the previous 5 games.

Um, to be fair. The "D" was depleted some by injury during the first part of the season. They jelled later on and played way better. So... I guess we'll never know.

[Simple Jaded]

I don't see the attraction to Kellen Moore, honestly.......

[chazoe60]

Orton was playing with same team as Tebow.


I don't know what Tebow will become but I do know one undeniable fact, Tebow was the starting QB for the Denver Broncos when they won a division title and a playoff game. Kyle Orton was the starting QB for the Denver Broncos for 13 games of a season in which the Broncos "earned" the 2nd pick in the draft, he was also the starting QB when we started the season 1-4, the same season in which Tebow finished 7-4 and won a playoff game. Those are facts, not opinions.

Now for some opinion. Orton sux. He's a QB with average ability and below average intangibles who absolutely crumbles under pressure. I died a little bit every time I had to watch that lethargic mopey loser walk into a Broncos huddle. He inspires as much hope in people as the bubonic(sp?) plague.

Some sorta fact sorta opinion. Kyle Orton will never wear a Broncos uniform again and for that I am thankful.

[topscribe]

Orton was playing with same team as Tebow.


I don't know what Tebow will become but I do know one undeniable fact, Tebow was the starting QB for the Denver Broncos when they won a division title and a playoff game. Kyle Orton was the starting QB for the Denver Broncos for 13 games of a season in which the Broncos "earned" the 2nd pick in the draft, he was also the starting QB when we started the season 1-4, the same season in which Tebow finished 7-4 and won a playoff game. Those are facts, not opinions.

Now for some opinion. Orton sux. He's a QB with average ability and below average intangibles who absolutely crumbles under pressure. I died a little bit every time I had to watch that lethargic mopey loser walk into a Broncos huddle. He inspires as much hope in people as the bubonic(sp?) plague.

Some sorta fact sorta opinion. Kyle Orton will never wear a Broncos uniform again and for that I am thankful.

Yes, Chaz. :yawn: I'm sure most of us know your opinion of Orton, just as everyone knows mine. :laugh:

-----

[BORDERLINE]

Not really. Those first five games could have just as well been 4-1 as they
were 1-4.

Moreover, in the first few games, that was a defense with a lot of injuries,
playing in a new defensive scheme. As the season wore on, players began
to come back (such as Dumervil) and the defense began to gel. So it was
not the exact same defense this last year.

But it was the same defense when Tebow finished 1-4. How about that?

-----

I bet a lot of teams can use the WHAT IF argument TOP. We are talking about WHAT IS, WHAT REALLY HAPPENED.

See vandammage13 signature for further visual proof.

Injuries are part of the game. Even more evidence for us to draft another position instead of QB in the up-coming draft. So let's get some defensive depth to avoid the same thing happening this YEAR. RIGHT??

[topscribe]

I bet a lot of teams can use the WHAT IF argument TOP. We are talking about WHAT IS, WHAT REALLY HAPPENED.

See vandammage13 signature for further visual proof.

Injuries are part of the game. Even more evidence for us to draft another position instead of QB in the up-coming draft. So let's get some defensive depth to avoid the same thing happening this YEAR. RIGHT??

Yes, the "injuries are part of the game" argument is a common comeback,
my friend. But that has no effect on the fact that a team without injuries
is better than the same team with injuries. So you said absolutely nothing
to rebut my argument.

And I can't see Vandammage's posts. Probably never will . . .

-----

[chazoe60]

And I'll restate my opinion anytime I see people excusing Orton and heaping blame on Tebow.

I keep seeing you(top) bring up how the team won inspite of Tebow and lost inspite of Orton's herculean effort, and I just happen to completely disagree.

[NightTerror218]

I do not want to use a 2nd on a QB this year. I want to see how this off season will treat Tebow (give him some time). Fill some gaping holes in first 2 rounds and 3rd or later get a QB. I prefer 4th since I see 1-3rd rounds as potential starters.

[BORDERLINE]

Yes, the "injuries are part of the game" argument is a common comeback,
my friend. But that has no effect on the fact that a team without injuries
is better than the same team with injuries. So you said absolutely nothing
to rebut my argument.

And I can't see Vandammage's posts. Probably never will . . .

-----

see the HOUSTON TEXANS 2011-2012 season. IF ever a team was gonna play the "injuries held us back card" it was THIS ONE. And did they? NO.

[topscribe]

see the HOUSTON TEXANS 2011-2012 season. IF ever a team was gonna play the "injuries held us back card" it was THIS ONE. And did they? NO.

That's not the point, Border. The fact remains that a healthy defense is
going to be better than the same defense with injuries. That is not
debatable.

Which is also, BTW, why this year's game against Pittsburgh is going to be
wildly different from that playoff game last year. They're comiing in
healthy this time . . .

-----

[topscribe]

And I'll restate my opinion anytime I see people excusing Orton and heaping blame on Tebow.

I keep seeing you(top) bring up how the team won inspite of Tebow and lost inspite of Orton's herculean effort, and I just happen to completely disagree.

You're not doing a good job of reading my posts, Chaz.

Try to keep up . . . :welcome:

-----

[BORDERLINE]

That's not the point, Border. The fact remains that a healthy defense is
going to be better than the same defense with injuries. That is not
debatable.

Which is also, BTW, why this year's game against Pittsburgh is going to be
wildly different from that playoff game last year. They're comiing in
healthy this time . . .

-----

your correct a healthy defense is better than a injured one.

And as far as this years game with PITT. Who knows what if we have injuries on offense therefore we won't be as good. SO losing that game would be OK and would you be able to accept that?

But WE are talking about WHAT IF's now. When the game is over WE will get some answers.

[topscribe]

your correct a healthy defense is better than a injured one.

And as far as this years game with PITT. Who knows what if we have injuries on offense therefore we won't be as good. SO losing that game would be OK and would you be able to accept that?

But WE are talking about WHAT IF's now. When the game is over WE will get some answers.

No, I don't believe it is a "what if" to say that Pitt is a far better team
than the Broncos on both sides of the ball. Last year was a fluke because
the Steelers resembled a M*A*S*H unit. I fear for my team this year . . .

-----

[BORDERLINE]

No, I don't believe it is a "what if" to say that Pitt is a far better team
than the Broncos on both sides of the ball. Last year was a fluke because
the Steelers resembled a M*A*S*H unit. I fear for my team this year . . .

-----

a lot of fans feared for our team even with those injuries on the Steelers Defense. But.....things didn't turn out how most believed.

[topscribe]

a lot of fans feared for our team even with those injuries on the Steelers Defense. But.....things didn't turn out how most believed.

I know what you're implying, and I hope you're right. :nod:

-----

[Npba900]

see the HOUSTON TEXANS 2011-2012 season. IF ever a team was gonna play the "injuries held us back card" it was THIS ONE. And did they? NO.

Border, injuries are a part of the game. Having said this, key injuries are the reasons teams will not win games that they should have won had those injuries not have taken place.

Its not so much as using injuries as an excuse for losing......its the reality for lost.

[BORDERLINE]

Its not so much as using injuries as an excuse for losing......its the reality for lost.

?????...

I understand your first line. But you where stating the obvious.

[Ravage!!!]

I agree with not drafting a QB this year...at least not before the 5th.

But, I kind of disagree in not being able to find a FQB outside of the 1st. The way the league and the rules are changing, I dont think it's too far fetched for a 3nd or 3rd rounder with decent accuracy to be able to develop into a 4000 yard passer

Possibly. But you look at the NFL right now, and outside of Brady, the best QBs in the NFL are almost all 1st round picks. Now one can argue that is because the 1st round picks are the ones that get the playing time, however, we can turn around and say the reason they are first round picks is because they are the best passers.

You are absolutely right, through. With today's NFL rules, any QB can throw for a ton of yards. Not sure that makes them a FQB, or even a good QB, but it certainly helps. :beer:

[Lancane]

Possibly. But you look at the NFL right now, and outside of Brady, the best QBs in the NFL are almost all 1st round picks. Now one can argue that is because the 1st round picks are the ones that get the playing time, however, we can turn around and say the reason they are first round picks is because they are the best passers.

You are absolutely right, through. With today's NFL rules, any QB can throw for a ton of yards. Not sure that makes them a FQB, or even a good QB, but it certainly helps. :beer:

I agree and disagree, Rav. Most of the Best quarterbacks are first round picks, but there are exceptions...Tom Brady, Matt Schaub, Brett Farve, Drew Brees, Tony Romo and Joe Montana are proof of that. As to why, I believe that it's rather simply that first round picks are more focused on then their latter counterparts, pretty much the same as what you stated. San Diego went out and drafted Rivers even though they had Brees, I believe this is the premier example of focusing more on higher drafted players. As long as the player in question has the talent, athletic ability and a solid grasp of the mechanics at their respective positions, I feel they can be coached. A lot of kids fall through the cracks because it's too much work, but that shouldn't effect Denver, we've got a starting quarterback that has first round tangibles and athletic ability with a seventh rounders' grasp of mechanics, and they're willing to give him three years despite his horrendous numbers.

[BORDERLINE]

I agree and disagree, Rav. Most of the Best quarterbacks are first round picks, but there are exceptions...Tom Brady, Matt Schaub, Brett Farve, Drew Brees, Tony Romo and Joe Montana are proof of that. As to why, I believe that it's rather simply that first round picks are more focused on then their latter counterparts, pretty much the same as what you stated. San Diego went out and drafted Rivers even though they had Brees, I believe this is the premier example of focusing more on higher drafted players. As long as the player in question has the talent, athletic ability and a solid grasp of the mechanics at their respective positions, I feel they can be coached. A lot of kids fall through the cracks because it's too much work, but that shouldn't effect Denver, we've got a starting quarterback that has first round tangibles and athletic ability with a seventh rounders' grasp of mechanics, and they're willing to give him three years despite his horrendous numbers.

didn't the Dolts draft Manning? And the Giants drafted Rivers? But Manning said hell to the NO to SD.

And even though they did have Brees. He was like 3 years into his pro career and wasn't doing all that good. Hence the Chargers picking 1st overall.

[Lancane]

didn't the Dolts draft Manning? And the Giants drafted Rivers? But Manning said hell to the NO to SD.

And even though they did have Brees. He was like 3 years into his pro career and wasn't doing all that good. Hence the Chargers picking 1st overall.

They did draft Manning in 2004 only to be forced to trade him for Rivers, that is true. But the point I was making still stands, and no...Drew Brees had a stellar sophomore season and beyond, Rivers was drafted two years later. Between 2002 and 2005 Drew Brees was the best quarterback in the AFC West and one of the better quarterbacks in the AFC. Even their fans were surprised by them drafting Manning and trading him for Rivers.

[Ravage!!!]

I agree and disagree, Rav. Most of the Best quarterbacks are first round picks, but there are exceptions...Tom Brady, Matt Schaub, Brett Farve, Drew Brees, Tony Romo and Joe Montana are proof of that. As to why, I believe that it's rather simply that first round picks are more focused on then their latter counterparts, pretty much the same as what you stated. San Diego went out and drafted Rivers even though they had Brees, I believe this is the premier example of focusing more on higher drafted players. As long as the player in question has the talent, athletic ability and a solid grasp of the mechanics at their respective positions, I feel they can be coached. A lot of kids fall through the cracks because it's too much work, but that shouldn't effect Denver, we've got a starting quarterback that has first round tangibles and athletic ability with a seventh rounders' grasp of mechanics, and they're willing to give him three years despite his horrendous numbers.

As I said Lan, there are exceptions, and I already gave Brady as an example. But I can go and list all the GREAT QBs that were taken in the first round, and it would pale the list of later rounds. In your list alone, one can argue Matt Schaub and Romo... and Brees was the 1st pick in the 2nd round (meaning he was nearly a 1st round pick).

The Chargers picked Rivers, not because Rivers was a higher pick, but because Brees had looked TERRIBLE his first couple of seasons, and the Chargers were right back into picking first in the draft... again. They had to make a choice while picking #1 overall in the draft. Do they keep a QB that has looked bad, or do they take a highly rated QB with their #1 overall pick? How many positions in the NFL can justify that kind of pay?? Not many (yes, I"m aware that they picked Eli and traded him away, but they had that trade set up prior to drafting Eli).

Yes, you can always make the argument that Akili Smith would have been better had he been given more time.

But the point is...that if we aren't in a position where we feel we must draft a QB to replace the one we have (like SD did considering their situation), then waiting to take one in the second round doesn't make sense. If you are going to put your eggs into the basket of Tim Tebow, then you can take a flyer on a 5ht or 6th round QB where it doesn't cost you much to take the chance. If you feel your team is in need of a new QB NOW...then you do what you can to move up and take the best QB available. But I truly don't think you look for your FQB in the second round. Any team can get lucky with any pick in the draft, as you know, but he idea is to limit the chances and go with the better odds.

:beer:

[Ravage!!!]

They did draft Manning in 2004 only to be forced to trade him for Rivers, that is true. But the point I was making still stands, and no...Drew Brees had a stellar sophomore season and beyond, Rivers was drafted two years later. Between 2002 and 2005 Drew Brees was the best quarterback in the AFC West and one of the better quarterbacks in the AFC. Even their fans were surprised by them drafting Manning and trading him for Rivers.

NOT at the time of drafting RIvers, he wasn't. He only kept his starting job because Rivers held out thinking he deserved to be paid as the #1 overall pick, because of the trade that was in place before the draft. Brees looked TERRIBLE his first two years, and while Rivers was holding out, Brees stepped up and played great.

Then they stuck with Brees as the starter the next year...but Brees separated his shoulder at the end of the season. They had already used the franchise tag on Brees once, and now he had a shoulder injury. Had he not injured his shoulder, the Chargers probably would have traded away Rivers. But they were forced to make the decision on keeping the 1st round pick QB, or the QB with the injury.

[Lancane]

NOT at the time of drafting RIvers, he wasn't. He only kept his starting job because Rivers held out thinking he deserved to be paid as the #1 overall pick, because of the trade that was in place before the draft. Brees looked TERRIBLE his first two years, and while Rivers was holding out, Brees stepped up and played great.

Then they stuck with Brees as the starter the next year...but Brees separated his shoulder at the end of the season. They had already used the franchise tag on Brees once, and now he had a shoulder injury. Had he not injured his shoulder, the Chargers probably would have traded away Rivers. But they were forced to make the decision on keeping the 1st round pick QB, or the QB with the injury.

Looking at the stats Rav, Brees' only season that he wasn't atop the charts in most categories was 2003 right before they drafted Manning, or Rivers as it turned out, and he missed five games with an injury, otherwise if you look at his numbers, he was still one of the better quarterbacks in the league. He was back in the saddle the following year and improved each year since.

[Ravage!!!]

Looking at the stats Rav, Brees' only season that he wasn't atop the charts in most categories was 2003 right before they drafted Manning, or Rivers as it turned out, and he missed five games with an injury, otherwise if you look at his numbers, he was still one of the better quarterbacks in the league. He was back in the saddle the following year and improved each year since.

I don't know, Lan, thats just looking at the stats...and we know that doesn't tell the story. Look at our own QB situation to know that. He wasn't good enough to get in the lineup his rookie season. He was wasn't good his sophmore year, and then stunk it up his third season.... the year that you would expect him to show the most progress. So the Chargers are in a tight spot. They stick with the QB that hasn't really shown much at all, and was quite bad to the point of leading them to the 1st overall pick...again, or you use your 1st overall pick on a top rated QB.... one that you can trade away and get more picks as well as another top rated QB.

Brees was bad his first three years. I think looking at the stats is just another case of the stats not telling the story...because he was NOT good. Marty is a FANTASTIC drafter (as evidenced by EVERY team he has coached), and is a guy that gives patience to players. He didn't choose to draft Rivers because Brees was looking good.

[Lancane]

I don't know, Lan, thats just looking at the stats...and we know that doesn't tell the story. Look at our own QB situation to know that. He wasn't good enough to get in the lineup his rookie season. He was wasn't good his sophmore year, and then stunk it up his third season.... the year that you would expect him to show the most progress. So the Chargers are in a tight spot. They stick with the QB that hasn't really shown much at all, and was quite bad to the point of leading them to the 1st overall pick...again, or you use your 1st overall pick on a top rated QB.... one that you can trade away and get more picks as well as another top rated QB.

Brees was bad his first three years. I think looking at the stats is just another case of the stats not telling the story...because he was NOT good. Marty is a FANTASTIC drafter (as evidenced by EVERY team he has coached), and is a guy that gives patience to players. He didn't choose to draft Rivers because Brees was looking good.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Brees was pretty sharp IMHO, he also led them to two AFC West titles before they drafted Rivers. But, I guess there could be an argument that he just struggled at the most opportune times and that was his short coming.

[topscribe]

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Brees was pretty sharp IMHO, he also led them to two AFC West titles before they drafted Rivers. But, I guess there could be an argument that he just struggled at the most opportune times and that was his short coming.

Hmmm . . . is there something about Purdue QBs . . . ? :confused:

-----

[BORDERLINE]

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Brees was pretty sharp IMHO, he also led them to two AFC West titles before they drafted Rivers. But, I guess there could be an argument that he just struggled at the most opportune times and that was his short coming.

I have a hard time believing the Chargers would have drafted a QB while having a really good one behind center. Brees is no doubt right now a TOP TIER QB but at the time he was not the player he is NOW. Therefore the Dolts went ahead and selected Manning.

[BORDERLINE]

Hmmm . . . is there something about Purdue QBs . . . ? :confused:

-----

OH my TIM TEBOW:rolleyes:....

[MOtorboat]

Hmmm . . . is there something about Purdue QBs . . . ? :confused:

-----

One overcame that problem. One became one of the worst quarterbacks in the league under pressure.

Perspective...

[chazoe60]

One overcame that problem. One became one of the worst quarterbacks in the league under pressure.

Perspective...

Give this man a prize.

[topscribe]

One overcame that problem. One became one of the worst quarterbacks in the league under pressure.

Perspective...

Or just simply a tongue-in-cheek comment with no other motive than that . . .

-----

[Jsteve01]

Or just simply a tongue-in-cheek comment with no other motive than that . . .

-----
wait did you just


yup you saluted yourself

[nj10]

Nope! It's Uncle.......Brandon Weeden---and Tebow is his nephew!:D

Brandon Weeden = The true Kurt Warner of the 2012 draft.

Brandon Weeden = The true Chris Weinke of the 2012 draft.

[Simple Jaded]

Brandon Weeden = The true Chris Weinke of the 2012 draft.

Both are an upgrade at this point.......

[Simple Jaded]

And this is true here. But i'm cool with it TOP we all can't agree on everything.

But rest assured IF Orton put up Tebow numbers. Including the WINS I would totally have his back until he PROVED he could no longer WIN in that type of fashion.

As for the "Defense" argument. WE ALL know Orton had the same defense Tebow did this past year. Orton started 1-4, could he have maybe turned it around? I don't know but it was very unlikely seeing what he did the previous 5 games.

This is total and complete bullshit, no offense. The turn around came on defense, the offense had nothing to do with it, the offense actually got worse.

The defensive side of the ball was finally getting healthy and competent coordinating while switching from a 3-4 to a 4-3 coming off an offseason with no workouts or OTA's. Things were starting to come together on defense when they scapegoated Ortonary.

If Tebow inspired that turn around l doubt it's in the fairytale fasion Tebow/Gator fans wanna believe it to be.......

[NightTerror218]

This is total and complete bullshit, no offense. The turn around came on defense, the offense had nothing to do with it, the offense actually got worse.

The defensive side of the ball was finally getting healthy and competent coordinating while switching from a 3-4 to a 4-3 coming off an offseason with no workouts or OTA's. Things were starting to come together on defense when they scapegoated Ortonary.

If Tebow inspired that turn around l doubt it's in the fairytale fasion Tebow/Gator fans wanna believe it to be.......

Total bullshit? THe defense was playing just as well entire time. Offense had more passing, ya so what. With Tebow it led the league in rushing. It was a give and take situation. Tebow does not have the arm orton has, and he did not have the turn overs that really hamper the defense. THe offenses were 2 completely different things. 1 was a passing the other was a running. Like comparing Vikings to Patriots, just flat out different.

[Simple Jaded]

Total bullshit? THe defense was playing just as well entire time. Offense had more passing, ya so what. With Tebow it led the league in rushing. It was a give and take situation. Tebow does not have the arm orton has, and he did not have the turn overs that really hamper the defense. THe offenses were 2 completely different things. 1 was a passing the other was a running. Like comparing Vikings to Patriots, just flat out different.

Total, complete and utter bullshit.

You're asking me to believe that Tebow's running improved the defense, horseshit! The fact is, running the ball is a function of John Fox's philosophy not Tebow's ineptitude in an NFL passing game. The running would have been, and will always be there regardless of who is at QB.

Btw, stop pretending that Orton's turnovers had worse effect on the defense than the eight 3-and-outs in twelve drives every F'n week. l'll take the turnovers over the minute-and-a-half rest Tebow gave his defense.......

[MOtorboat]

Total bullshit? THe defense was playing just as well entire time. Offense had more passing, ya so what. With Tebow it led the league in rushing. It was a give and take situation. Tebow does not have the arm orton has, and he did not have the turn overs that really hamper the defense. THe offenses were 2 completely different things. 1 was a passing the other was a running. Like comparing Vikings to Patriots, just flat out different.

It was, eh?

Orton's 5 starts: 28 points per game allowed
Tebow's 11 starts: 22.7
Tebow's 7 wins: 16.7

Turnover margin before Tebow: -5
Turnover margin with Tebow: -3

Yeah complete bullshit.

[BORDERLINE]

This is total and complete bullshit, no offense. The turn around came on defense, the offense had nothing to do with it, the offense actually got worse.

The defensive side of the ball was finally getting healthy and competent coordinating while switching from a 3-4 to a 4-3 coming off an offseason with no workouts or OTA's. Things were starting to come together on defense when they scapegoated Ortonary.

If Tebow inspired that turn around l doubt it's in the fairytale fasion Tebow/Gator fans wanna believe it to be.......

show me, player for player how this defense was not the same as when Orton was starting to when Tebow was starting.......

Give me FACTS actual FACTS to Back up what your stating that Tebow had a different defense....

Not no BS they just turned it around or the team had not gel'd arguments

[BORDERLINE]

It was, eh?

Orton's 5 starts: 28 points per game allowed
Tebow's 11 starts: 22.7
Tebow's 7 wins: 16.7

Turnover margin before Tebow: -5
Turnover margin with Tebow: -3

Yeah complete bullshit.

Time of Possession???

Now I for one am not saying the defense was playing the same.

BUT IT WAS THE SAME DEFENSE

[Simple Jaded]

show me, player for player how this defense was not the same as when Orton was starting to when Tebow was starting.......

Give me FACTS actual FACTS to Back up what your stating that Tebow had a different defense....

Not no BS they just turned it around or the team had not gel'd arguments

Dj Williams, Champ Bailey and Elvis Dumervil all missed multiple games due to injury during the 1-4 start, just to name a few. They're kinda important, Denver's 3 best players on defense at the time. If you don't believe me you should google what Champ Bailey had to say about it.

Sorry, but it's bullshit. Tebow may have had an effect on the way the defense played, but not in the fairytale way you wanna believe. If anything the defense was motivated by the FACT that they had no chance of winning unless they scored on defense, force a turnover in opponents territory AND hold the opponents to 7-15 points.......

[BORDERLINE]

Dj Williams, Champ Bailey and Elvis Dumervil all missed multiple games due to injury during the 1-4 start, just to name a few. They're kinda important, Denver's 3 best players on defense at the time. If you don't believe me you should google what Champ Bailey had to say about it.

Sorry, but it's bullshit. Tebow may have had an effect on the way the defense played, but not in the fairytale way you wanna believe. If anything the defense was motivated by the FACT that they had no chance of winning unless they scored on defense, force a turnover in opponents territory AND hold the opponents to 7-15 points.......

and what about the last 5 games the Broncos played.

Didn't Miller play with one hand? Didn't Dawkins miss his fare share of games.

But yet during that stretch no one wants to point the finger at them. And rightfully so Tebow and the offense where stinking it up.

But the same could be said about the Orton and the Offense HE ran when HE started 1-4.

[MOtorboat]

and what about the last 5 games the Broncos played.

Didn't Miller play with one hand? Didn't Dawkins miss his fare share of games.

But yet during that stretch no one wants to point the finger at them. And rightfully so Tebow and the offense where stinking it up.

But the same could be said about the Orton and the Offense HE ran when HE started 1-4.

Yeah that's why Denver lost.

Had nothing to do with the quarterback.

Jeesh. Circular argument much?

[topscribe]

Time of Possession???

Now I for one am not saying the defense was playing the same.

BUT IT WAS THE SAME DEFENSE

You keep saying that, which means you keep blindly ignoring the injuries on the
defense before and after Tebow took over, as well as the time it took for the
defense to gel to the new defensive scheme -- switching entirely from the
3-4 to the 4-3 -- with virtually no preseason to do it.

It. Was. Not. The. Same. Defense. Period.

And defense is as responsible for TOP as is the offense . . .

-----

[BORDERLINE]

Yeah that's why Denver lost.

Had nothing to do with the quarterback.

Jeesh. Circular argument much?

did you read my post?

people are quick to apologize for Orton's 1-4 defense. Yet when Tebow went 1-4 it was all on him. Jeesh.

[BORDERLINE]

You keep saying that, which means you keep blindly ignoring the injuries on the
defense before and after Tebow took over, as well as the time it took for the
defense to gel to the new defensive scheme -- switching entirely from the
3-4 to the 4-3 -- with virtually no preseason to do it.

It. Was. Not. The. Same. Defense. Period.

And defense is as responsible for TOP as is the offense . . .

-----

TOP we gone through enough of these.

My last post is where I stand

[topscribe]

TOP we gone through enough of these.

My last post is where I stand

Apparently, we have not gone through enough of these because you keep
blindly ignoring facts that would interfere with your apparent adamant man-
love of Tebow. So let me repeat: It was not the same defense. The same
defense is one that had all the same players on the field, that was familiar
with the defense they were playing. Neither of those factors was true.

BTW, TOP depends just as much on the defense as it does the offense. How
quickly the defense can get off the field greatly affects the TOP. That is not
debatable . . .

Oh yes, another factor you ignore: The Broncos began the season at 1-4,
and they finished 1-4.

-----

[BORDERLINE]

Apparently, we have not gone through enough of these because you keep
blindly ignoring facts that would interfere with your apparent adamant man-
love of Tebow. So let me repeat: It was not the same defense. The same
defense is one that had all the same players on the field, that was familiar
with the defense they were playing. Neither of those factors was true.

BTW, TOP depends just as much on the defense as it does the offense. How
quickly the defense can get off the field greatly affects the TOP. That is not
debatable . . .

Oh yes, another factor you ignore: The Broncos began the season at 1-4,
and they finished 1-4.

-----

Jaded put up 3 Broncos starters that missed time during the first 5 games.

I put up 1 starter that missed time and one that was severely handicapped in those last 5 games.

So 1 1/2 half guys makes the defense Tick in Denver? If we miss 1 defensive starter WE are in the hole? Then we need to address defense in the second round instead of a QB like the Title of the Thread announces.

and yes TOP started 1-4 finish 1-4. The difference.

the first WIN came in early September against the rookie QB lead Dalton

and the last WIn came against the DEFENDING AFC CHAMPION Steelers.

But TO YOU TOP they where the SAME. OK OK not subjective at all

[topscribe]

Jaded put up 3 Broncos starters that missed time during the first 5 games.

I put up 1 starter that missed time and one that was severely handicapped in those last 5 games.

So 1 1/2 half guys makes the defense Tick in Denver? If we miss 1 defensive starter WE are in the hole? Then we need to address defense in the second round instead of a QB like the Title of the Thread announces.

and yes TOP started 1-4 finish 1-4. The difference.

the first WIN came in early September against the rookie QB lead Dalton

and the last WIn came against the DEFENDING AFC CHAMPION Steelers.

But TO YOU TOP they where the SAME. OK OK not subjective at all

Ah, my friend, you are ignoring so much, and when I point out what you
are ignoring, then you ignore what I'm saying. Twice, the differences in
scoring offense and scoring defense have been posted: once by Mo, and
once by me. Now, when the offense scored significantly less and the
defense allowed significantly fewer points, how can you accurately claim
that anybody on the offense led the Broncos to those victories?

-----

[BORDERLINE]

how can you accurately claim
that anybody on the offense led the Broncos to those victories?

-----

r7OpSgG_CUI

but i'm sure you'll come up with some ugly stat or something the Jets defense DID right......RIGHT?

[topscribe]

r7OpSgG_CUI

but i'm sure you'll come up with some ugly stat or something the Jets defense DID right......RIGHT?

Border, I saw that game. That was one of Tebow's drives I alluded to. I can
also show you Orton's two 95-yard drives in a single game against NE, his
three TD drives in the 4th quarter against St. Louis, and his 98-yard, game
winning drive against Detroit when he was a Bear.

In other words, one or two drives mean little in the real world of the NFL.
Consistent play does. When that happens, I will back Tebow . . . shoot, he
has my backing now. It's just that I am trying to be realistic, but I do want
him to become a good QB. After all, he is a Denver Bronco, and winning is
the main thing, is it not? :)

P.S. Just two points regarding the Jets game:

1. Did you notice how close they came to a safety on that first play?
2. Did you notice how many points the Jets had on the board? 13. Defense.

-----

[BORDERLINE]

Border, I saw that game. That was one of Tebow's drives I alluded to. I can
also show you Orton's two 95-yard drives in a single game against NE, his
three TD drives in the 4th quarter against St. Louis, and his 98-yard, game
winning drive against Detroit when he was a Bear.

In other words, one or two drives mean little in the real world of the NFL.
Consistent play does. When that happens, I will back Tebow . . . shoot, he
has my backing now. It's just that I am trying to be realistic, but I do want
him to become a good QB. After all, he is a Denver Bronco, and winning is
the main thing, is it not? :)

P.S. Just two points regarding the Jets game:

1. Did you notice how close they came to a safety on that first play?
2. Did you notice how many points the Jets had on the board? 13. Defense.

-----

0KxONy8_XQA

[catfish]

It was, eh?

Orton's 5 starts: 28 points per game allowed
Tebow's 11 starts: 22.7
Tebow's 7 wins: 16.7

Turnover margin before Tebow: -5
Turnover margin with Tebow: -3

Yeah complete bullshit.

They played better during the wins, but about the same during the losses.

Ortons losses 29 pts/game(didn't remember if he threw any pick 6)

Tebows 30 pts/game after accounting for pick sixes(I think there were 4, but it may have been 3).


When they played well it was very well, when they were bad it was awful, young team, it happens. It all boils down to consistency, if they can consistently hold a team to 20 or less point they have a chance, if the consistently give up 29 points a game they are going to lose pretty much every game.

[NightTerror218]

It was, eh?

Orton's 5 starts: 28 points per game allowed
Tebow's 11 starts: 22.7
Tebow's 7 wins: 16.7

Turnover margin before Tebow: -5
Turnover margin with Tebow: -3

Yeah complete bullshit.

Same difference with a new offense. TO ratio helps a lot when it comes to the defense and keeping them off the field, not to mention the controlling of the clock helps too.

[NightTerror218]

Total, complete and utter bullshit.

You're asking me to believe that Tebow's running improved the defense, horseshit! The fact is, running the ball is a function of John Fox's philosophy not Tebow's ineptitude in an NFL passing game. The running would have been, and will always be there regardless of who is at QB.

Btw, stop pretending that Orton's turnovers had worse effect on the defense than the eight 3-and-outs in twelve drives every F'n week. l'll take the turnovers over the minute-and-a-half rest Tebow gave his defense.......

That line is crap because with orton we were ranked #25 in rushing and with Tebow we were ranked #1. Kepeing feeding that BS to yourself and you might start to believe that. But a Qb who protects the ball and does not turn the ball over helps his defense and that is a fact. Orton has plenty of 3 and outs also. I take the 3 and outs over TOs anyday. I dont know who would take the other?