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TXBRONC
03-19-2009, 09:19 AM
Not that this will change minds but Paige does point out just how difficult it is to find a franchise quarterback. Just look how long it took for Denver to find their first one in John Elway and how long it took the Colts to find after they sent traded Elway to Denver. By the its all looking like McDaniels wasn't such a wall flower after all in the trading Cutler. So much for making snap judgements.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_11945954

Paige: Don't destroy franchise
By Woody Paige
The Denver Post
Posted: 03/19/2009 12:30:00 AM MDT

Go ahead, trade Jay Cutler! Get rid of him! Really, really punish him by sending him to Detroit! Or, better still, Siberia! Purge the pouter! Kick him to the curb and throw him under the Bus Cook!

But, remember this: Those Jeffs-, Jodys-, Jaspers-, Joshes- come-lately had better study the Broncos' history, or they are doomed to repeat the three-, four- and five-victory seasons.

Two words: Steve Ramsey.

Two more words: Steve Tensi.

Two more words: Steve DeBerg.

Lord, what fools these mortals be! — Billy Shakespeare

To all the mortals inside Broncos Compound and outside Pigeon Valley who are demanding that Cutler be dumped like a load of coal, don't come crying to me after you've made that monumental mistake. Be careful what you wish for. You may get it.

Give me a quarterback who pouts and cares, who is furious and doesn't return phone calls, who wears a Ringo Starr hairstyle, his cap on backward and his shirttail sticking out, who is boastful and remote and who soon will be one of the top five at his position in the NFL.

I'll give you a quarterback who is gracious and affable, who has excellent table manners and wears an Armani suit, who has a smile on his face and a George Hamilton tan on his body, who likes to tweet on his Twitter and show up at your kid's birthday party dressed as a purple dinosaur, and who will be a guy who always plays just good enough to get you beat.

Matt Robinson, traded to the Broncos when he was 25, possessed a pleasant disposition and a nice car. He was an awful quarterback — two touchdowns and 12 interceptions in seven starts — and shuffled off to Buffalo the next season.

People, including a head coach, who haven't lived in Denver for a long time, or aren't old enough to recall the seasons before 1977, may not be aware that the Broncos have suited up 57 quarterbacks since 1960.

There have been 50 — count 'em — 50 different starting quarterbacks for the Broncos in 49 seasons.

The vast majority couldn't play dead.

One ended up living under a bridge.

So, you want to go back to Frank Tripucka, Mickey Slaughter, Max Choboian, Bubby Brister and George "Don't Call Me Bernard" Shaw.

Or the three Steves, Tensi, Ramsey and DeBerg.

Tensi and Ramsey were "retired" by age 29. DeBerg had three winning seasons as a full-time starter.

The first names of three of the Broncos' four best quarterbacks begin with "J" — John, Jake and Jay. The other was Craig Morton. Three of the four played quarterback for the Broncos in 31 postseason games, eight conference championships and six Super Bowls.

Of all the rest, only six played quarterback in postseason games.

Cutler is the best quarterback the Broncos have picked in the collegiate draft. (Don't hand me ex-starters Brian Griese, Tommy Maddox or Mark Herrmann.)

In 1983 the Colts drafted a young, pouting, defiant quarterback who demanded to be traded, and he was sent to Denver. The Colts didn't recover until drafting another great quarterback No. 1 in 1998, Peyton Manning.

In 1991 the Cleveland Browns hired the league's youngest head coach. He feuded with his starting quarterback, Bernie Kosar (who had lifted the Browns to three AFC championship games, only to lose to the Broncos), and eventually replaced him with Vinny Testaverde. Kosar took over for the injured Troy Aikman in the NFC championship and led the Cowboys to the victory. The Browns coach, with a 36-44 record, was fired after the 1995 season. Bill Belichick.

Shall we be clear about McJaygate? After the first reports about the trade gone awry surfaced, coach Josh McDaniels told Mike Klis of The Denver Post: "We don't want to trade Jay. We never did. He's our quarterback."

A few days ago McDaniels told Peter King of Sports Illustrated that he did pursue a deal with New England for Matt Cassel, but "I think we were too late to the dance."

This is not a prom. It's pro football.

If I were the coach, I'd fly to Nashville and tell Cutler: "I'm sorry. I made a rookie mistake. You're our quarterback."

But, Josh, and Jeff and Jody and you, go ahead and run Jay out of Our Dusty Old Cowtown, for spite.

Woody Paige: 303-954-1095 or wpaige@denverpost.com

CoachChaz
03-19-2009, 10:10 AM
Interesting, but on the same token, how great was Miami with their franchise QB? Remember when Culpepper was the next great thing? How about all the great things Vick was going to do?

My point is, not all proclaimed franchise QB's are guaranteed success.

silkamilkamonico
03-19-2009, 10:12 AM
Interesting, but on the same token, how great was Miami with their franchise QB? Remember when Culpepper was the next great thing? How about all the great things Vick was going to do?

My point is, not all proclaimed franchise QB's are guaranteed success.

Hey, if your name is Jay Cutler, you're not only guaranteed success, you ARE success!

Medford Bronco
03-19-2009, 10:21 AM
Interesting, but on the same token, how great was Miami with their franchise QB? Remember when Culpepper was the next great thing? How about all the great things Vick was going to do?

My point is, not all proclaimed franchise QB's are guaranteed success.

Dont forget Heath Shuler a "franchise QB"
or how about Ryan Leaf how did that work out

and to me the best comparison is Jeff George. Tons of talent but
a firecracker waiting to explode.

Lets see who has won Super Bowls without a "franchise QB"
in the last 10 years.

Giants with Manning
Brad Johnson with Tampa
Trent Dilfer with the Ravens

or how about two of the best all time QBs that never won the Super Bowl

Dan Marino
and Jim Kelley who are up there in the all time greats but never won the big one either.

Its about having and all around team to win.

Our beloved John Elway did not win the whole thing until he had a great RB in Terrel Davis, excellent WR/TE combo with McCaf, Smith and Sharpe
and a good enough defense that caused turnovers (a misnomer here the last few seasons)

and also decent special teams (another misnomer here).

Yes Cutler had a good year in 2008 but not a great one where he was the NFL MVP etc where he overcame his deficiencies of this team ala Kurt Warner did (worst defense in NFL history to play in a Super Bowl, gave up over 400 pts); to elevate his team.

Jay has all the talent in the world, but needs to be more like Brady/Manningl/Warner/Pennington and making better decisions on and off the field.

It does not seem likely here, unless Mcd and him repair the relationship.

We shall see what happens. I want whats best for Denver and if Cutler is bitter all season, it him not being here.

The only way I want him back is if he puts in the effort to be a "good teammate" like he proclaims he is. Study on getting better, not keep whining about how bad it is. Jay just look at the economy and you you should be thanking God that you are so gifted and have a great job in life.

Is he mature enough to do that? I am not so sure.

TXBRONC
03-19-2009, 10:24 AM
Interesting, but on the same token, how great was Miami with their franchise QB? Remember when Culpepper was the next great thing? How about all the great things Vick was going to do?

My point is, not all proclaimed franchise QB's are guaranteed success.

If you mean Dan Marino they were pretty good to bad he didn't win a Super Bowl. Miami hasn't had a franchise quarterback since Dan Marino retired.

I don't know if anyone has said all franchise quarterbacks are guaranteed success. However I do believe we have one that will be very successful given the chance with upgrades on the defensive side of the ball and an upgrade on special teams.

CoachChaz
03-19-2009, 10:28 AM
If you mean Dan Marino they were pretty good to bad he didn't win a Super Bowl. Miami hasn't had a franchise quarterback since Dan Marino retired.

I don't know if anyone has said all franchise quarterbacks are guaranteed success. However I do believe we have one that will be very successful given the chance with upgrades on the defensive side of the ball and an upgrade on special teams.

COULD be successful. So far, he hasnt had a defense to help him, his top target cant stay out of trouble, his TE cant stay on the field, his RB's cant stay off the training table and he is proving on a daily basis that he could potentially be a head case.

No one will ever argue the talent, but you also cant argue that there is significant proof that a total stud QB is a requirement or a guarantee for success.

TXBRONC
03-19-2009, 10:35 AM
COULD be successful. So far, he hasnt had a defense to help him, his top target cant stay out of trouble, his TE cant stay on the field, his RB's cant stay off the training table and he is proving on a daily basis that he could potentially be a head case.

No one will ever argue the talent, but you also cant argue that there is significant proof that a total stud QB is a requirement or a guarantee for success.

Other than wins yes Jay is having success.

CoachChaz
03-19-2009, 10:38 AM
Other than wins yes Jay is having success.

4500 yards passing in ONE season is considered NFL success? Wow.

TXBRONC
03-19-2009, 10:39 AM
4500 yards passing in ONE season is considered NFL success? Wow.

45 touchdown passes in last TWO seasons WOW!

BroncoJoe
03-19-2009, 10:40 AM
Other than wins yes Jay is having success.

:confused:

BroncoJoe
03-19-2009, 10:42 AM
45 touchdown passes in last TWO seasons WOW!

32 interceptions in the last TWO seasons WOW!

BroncoJoe
03-19-2009, 10:42 AM
I really don't give a rat's ass if you're confused. :coffee:

I don't care about your rat's ass either.

BroncoJoe
03-19-2009, 10:44 AM
60% completion percentage. WOW

17-20 overall record. WOW!

CoachChaz
03-19-2009, 10:45 AM
45 touchdown passes in last TWO seasons WOW!

Imagine how many more he'd have if he didnt have a dozen or so red zone/end zone INT's in the same time span.

I'm not an advocate for "Cutler sucks". I want to see the guy get better and kick ass in a Denver uniform. But seriously...I can't say he has proven anything other than the fact that he has potential.

Who knows...maybe this is as good as it gets with him. Maybe he plays worse, maybe he plays better. But let's not find little things that a young QB has accomplished and call him successful

CoachChaz
03-19-2009, 10:46 AM
32 interceptions in the last TWO seasons WOW!

Joe, I'm going to have to ask you to stop pointing out the flaws in Cutler's game. In case you were not informed, let me reiterate this to you.

Any positives Cutler has achieved are because he is great. Any negatives are the defenses fault.

Hope I helped.

BroncoJoe
03-19-2009, 10:47 AM
Imagine how many more he'd have if he didnt have a dozen or so red zone/end zone INT's in the same time span.

I'm not an advocate for "Cutler sucks". I want to see the guy get better and kick ass in a Denver uniform. But seriously...I can't say he has proven anything other than the fact that he has potential.

Who knows...maybe this is as good as it gets with him. Maybe he plays worse, maybe he plays better. But let's not find little things that a young QB has accomplished and call him successful

Exactly. People confuse me as a Cutler hater. I'm actually the complete opposite, but I'm far from anointing him as the next GOAT.

BroncoJoe
03-19-2009, 10:49 AM
2nd worst Denfense in freakin league genius. WOW!

Oh, I forgot to mention the 24 fumbles in 37 games. WOW!

BroncoJoe
03-19-2009, 10:50 AM
No, people have you pegged right because constantly go into every thread to bitch.

No, I'm actually a realist.

NightTrainLayne
03-19-2009, 10:53 AM
The personal comments need to be kept out of the threads. Keep it on topic please.

:focus:

claymore
03-19-2009, 10:53 AM
Joe, I'm going to have to ask you to stop pointing out the flaws in Cutler's game. In case you were not informed, let me reiterate this to you.

Any positives Cutler has achieved are because he is great. Any negatives are the defenses fault.

Hope I helped.

Only St Louis allowed more points than us and they won 2 games.

claymore
03-19-2009, 10:54 AM
Oh, I forgot to mention the 24 fumbles in 37 games. WOW!

Tom Nalen.

TXBRONC
03-19-2009, 10:55 AM
Oh, I forgot to mention the 24 fumbles in 37 games. WOW!

WOW he's lost only 8.

Requiem / The Dagda
03-19-2009, 10:55 AM
Poor defense isn't an excuse for Jay's poor decisions, Claymore.

BroncoJoe
03-19-2009, 10:55 AM
Only St Louis allowed more points than us and they won 2 games.

AZ only allowed 22 more points and made the Super Bowl.

Damn near won it as well.

CoachChaz
03-19-2009, 10:56 AM
Only St Louis allowed more points than us and they won 2 games.

And the line, running game and quality receivers had nothing to do with that. I get it.

BroncoJoe
03-19-2009, 10:57 AM
WOW he's lost only 8

Yeah. I'm sure the ones he fell on went for positive yardage. Basically like getting a penalty including a loss of down.

CoachChaz
03-19-2009, 10:57 AM
WOW he's lost only 8

Fair...but it still wastes a down, thus forcing him to make a bigger play on the next one and creating an opportunity for him to force something and throw a pick.

Just looking at it from a less jaded POV

turftoad
03-19-2009, 10:57 AM
The personal comments need to be kept out of the threads. Keep it on topic please.

:focus:

2nd time.

Keep off the personal stuff here guys.

TIA

TXBRONC
03-19-2009, 11:03 AM
Yeah. I'm sure the ones he fell on went for positive yardage. Basically like getting a penalty including a loss of down.

You're going equate a loss of a down as being same as giving the ball back to the opposing defense? Right. :rolleyes:

claymore
03-19-2009, 11:04 AM
AZ only allowed 22 more points and made the Super Bowl.

Damn near won it as well.
They came on at the right time. Az Defense was actually fired up.

And the line, running game and quality receivers had nothing to do with that. I get it.

No they dont, its not a team sport.

TXBRONC
03-19-2009, 11:09 AM
The point here is that finding a franchise quarterback isn't easy thing to do.

turftoad
03-19-2009, 11:12 AM
The point here is that finding a franchise quarterback isn't easy thing to do.

Exactly..................... so lets discuss it like adults.

We all know it's a pationate subject and people are on both sides of the fence on this subject.

That said, we ALL should be able to discuss it without name calling and personal attacks.

I mean, we are all adults here, correct?

Let the debate continue, there's a lot of good dialogue going on around here.

TIA

omac
03-19-2009, 11:15 AM
Poor defense isn't an excuse for Jay's poor decisions, Claymore.

Shannon Sharpe disagrees with you, but what does he know. :coffee:

Northman
03-19-2009, 11:19 AM
Let the debate continue, there's a lot of good dialogue going on around here.

TIA

No there's not.

Requiem / The Dagda
03-19-2009, 11:21 AM
Certainly not much if he is going to state that Denver's poor defense caused Cutler to fumble the ball and throw interceptions. The only way I can even see that line of thinking working in an argument is if you would state that, "It could be assumed that since Denver played from behind, Cutler took more of an initiative in trying to make plays; sometimes forcing balls and making poor decisions that ended up in turnovers." -- or something along those lines.

Either way, Jay has shown a tendency to commit turnovers on a regular basis whether we're playing ahead or behind. Sure, a poor defense and playing from behind might put a little more weight on your shoulders; but ultimately it comes down to personal accountability, and Jay has had a relatively hard time staying consistent in his time as a Broncos quarterback. You get a lot of good with Jay, you also get a lot of bad. Just like any of the other gunslingers, like Favre -- of whom Jay is often compared to.

Medford Bronco
03-19-2009, 11:25 AM
Oh, I forgot to mention the 24 fumbles in 37 games. WOW!

Does that mean he has Dave Krieg's disease.

Requiem / The Dagda
03-19-2009, 11:26 AM
Even if the fumbles aren't lost -- it still hurts the team. How many fumbles occurred on say a third down; which ended up in us having to change possession anyways? Some of those are drive killers or momentum killers [even if they happen on an earlier down.] Hard to recover from things like that; so -- I'd take that into consideration as well. Quite honestly, it seems that the only thing Jay has been consistent at in his NFL career is being rather inconsistent.

Requiem / The Dagda
03-19-2009, 11:27 AM
Does that mean he has Dave Krieg's disease.

Just diabetes Med, just diabetes. However, I am beginning to think that he is bi-polar given his tactics as of late. We'll see about that though.

BigDaddyBronco
03-19-2009, 11:29 AM
I think it is fair to critique Cutler as a QB. He presses too much at times, trusts in his arm and will lock in on a receiver or two for long stretches.

I think his arm strength has actually hindered him as a QB, he will make some throws he shouldn't even try due to the coverage instead of throwing the ball away or looking for other options.

I do think that as he gets more experience this will get better, but you never know.

He has had a lot of trouble with getting the ball from the center, don't know what the issue is with this.

The good things about Cutler is that he can make all of the throws, is a great athlete, is durable, and plays with a passion.

I would rather have Cutler than 90% of the QB's out there, but I could see the team being just fine with another QB back there. Losing Cutler is not the end of the world.

TXBRONC
03-19-2009, 11:31 AM
One more time this thread isn't complaining about Cutler it's finding a franchise quarterback which isn't an easy thing to do.

Requiem / The Dagda
03-19-2009, 11:36 AM
Our criticisms of Jay Cutler can be reasons towards the notion that perhaps. . . just perhaps. . . he isn't a franchise type guy. I think the discussions being had between some of us are quite apt for this thread. Sure of a lot better than the name calling and four year old tactics that were going on earlier, don't you think?

Northman
03-19-2009, 11:38 AM
Even if the fumbles aren't lost -- it still hurts the team. How many fumbles occurred on say a third down; which ended up in us having to change possession anyways? Some of those are drive killers or momentum killers [even if they happen on an earlier down.] Hard to recover from things like that; so -- I'd take that into consideration as well. Quite honestly, it seems that the only thing Jay has been consistent at in his NFL career is being rather inconsistent.

Pretty stats are nice, a competitive heart is great. Potential is great. But one thing that soured me on Plummer was his consistency at turning the ball over and most times than not at the worst possible moment. When i look at guys like Plummer, Dilfer, Testeverde, all those guys had some great moments in their career (Testeverde playing for the Jets vs Miami on Monday Night comes to mind) but they also had as many bad moments both on a weekly basis and throughout any particular game which in the long run made them average. They could never get over the top in terms of being "the guy" in the end. For all the grand standing about how our defense was so bad that had absolutely nothing to do with Jay in the Buffalo game on the final two drives. Big Ben drives for the winning TD on the final drive and puts a perfect pass to where only the receiver can catch it and guess what? The defense had nothing to do with that drive. Go back to "the drive" with Elway, or "the catch" with Clark and Montana, Taylor and Montana, Eli Manning and Burress. Those are Elite QB drives when the game mattered most. Jay has potential to be one but he isnt there yet. And it takes more than just physical talent to be an Elite QB. Jeff George found that out the hard way.

Medford Bronco
03-19-2009, 12:02 PM
Just diabetes Med, just diabetes. However, I am beginning to think that he is bi-polar given his tactics as of late. We'll see about that though.

I was not making a joke of the diabeties Cicero. Sorry if I offended anyone.

Dave Krieg fumbled when basically you breathed on him. Cutler has kind of been like that in his career. Ball security has been less than stellar

NightTrainLayne
03-19-2009, 12:04 PM
This season Cutler did a great job with the center/QB exchange.

I don't recall him fumbling an exchange once this season (although he did have some other fumbles while scrambling).

I paid attention to this because I was really worried about him working with a new center. .. .but it wasn't an issue at all.