Denver Broncos GM Brian Xanders: Team will “Absolutely” build around Tim Tebow

[DenBronx]

Broncos' GM Brian Xanders—the least known member of EFX, or Elway Fox Xanders—spoke on ESPN's 102.3 FM Friday and talked all about the team.

One of his most striking quotes revolved around none other than the heinously hyped Tim Tebow.

When asked if the Broncos would build their team around Tebow, Xanders answered “Absolutely.”

READ FULL ARTICLE:
http://www.examiner.com/denver-broncos-in-denver/denver-broncos-gm-brian-xanders-team-will-absolutely-build-around-tim-tebow

[Lancane]

Broncos' GM Brian Xanders—the least known member of EFX, or Elway Fox Xanders—spoke on ESPN's 102.3 FM Friday and talked all about the team.

One of his most striking quotes revolved around none other than the heinously hyped Tim Tebow.

When asked if the Broncos would build their team around Tebow, Xanders answered “Absolutely.”

READ FULL ARTICLE:
http://www.examiner.com/denver-broncos-in-denver/denver-broncos-gm-brian-xanders-team-will-absolutely-build-around-tim-tebow


What it means is Denver has committed to Tebow as their starting quarterback, at least in the short term.

Sorry, I don't buy it...I don't see Denver committing to the read-option offense for one, let alone to a quarterback that remains a project and struggles to obtain even a basic understanding of, or that of the capability of passing at an NFL level, yet. I would hope that Elway and Fox were not that short sighted because it could seriously impact their careers and the support of the fans. I don't mind them trying to conform and develop him, but if they're going to focus on changing the offense to fit him, it will fail and they'll be stuck with players that could later not adjust to a pro-style offense.

I love what Nick Foles said about being a Broncos' fan and would love to be the quarterback of the future here.

[Ravage!!!]

yeah... its just words and doesn't really mean much

In order for the team to "buy into" Tebow as the QB, they would have to commit to drafting players that are build around the "option" offense. How do you do that when so far, it hasn't proved to be successful?? FA's would have to be acquired to fit around a system that has proved to have major flaws in a league that is built around and FOR passing.

I think the same statement could be made about any offensive player on the roster. "We absolutely are going to build around DT." Whats that mean?

In our case, I don't think it means building players around Tebow's college offensive system becuase you can't do that for the "short term." You bring in FA's and draftpicks that are meant to be Option players...and then you have to move one to a pocket passer....then you have to start all over.

[bcbronc]

I think peeps might be overreacting here. What does it even mean to build around Tebow? Its not like a running back that is successful in the read option can't be succesful in a more contemporary offense. I mean Mcgahee did fine in the read option even though he has been succesful in other offences. Same with DT, came from an option program in college bit I'd disagre with anyone who said he couldn't play in a more pass happy offense.

Really just a meaningless comment from Xanders. No reason at all to think a skill position player could only play in a read option offense, or for that matter could only play in am offense that wasn't based around the read option. Its just football.

[Shananahan]

Where are you people getting the impression or idea that Denver is going to be running a generic, boring run-first option offense as long as Tebow is the QB?

Building a team around him as a QB doesn't have anything to do with building the offense around the option.

[Lancane]

Where are you people getting the impression or idea that Denver is going to be running a generic, boring run-first option offense as long as Tebow is the QB?

Building a team around him as a QB doesn't have anything to do with building the offense around the option.

Can Tebow become more prototypical? And if so, do you have proof of this? I'm not saying that he will not, I'm stating he has to prove he can, as he is now, to say they're going to build around him, is well a generic way of saying they are going to build the team around his strengths, the same said strengths that I might add which forced Fox to run with the Read Option in the first place because he couldn't handle and seemed to struggle with the more pro-style Erhardt-Perkins system.

It's one of those careful what you say statements because it can backfire. Thankfully, most of us realize that Xanders is the Rain Man of the front office, he usually sounds confused and lost. His statement could be taken as the absence of competition, the inability to coach and conform Tebow and much more. You don't build the team around him, you build the team and force him to fit within that philosophy, if he can not then you tweak it slightly, if he still struggles then you move on.

[Shananahan]

the same said strengths that I might add which forced Fox to run with the Read Option in the first place because he couldn't handle and seemed to struggle with the more pro-style Erhardt-Perkins system.
Tebow's strengths didn't force Fox or anybody into the option, run-heavy offense. His weaknesses did. Tebow's strengths were what allowed said offense to actually have some success. Tebow's weaknesses prevented them from being able to open the thing up and throw more, I think, and as he (theoretically) improves, the offense will become more pro-style.

I also disagree with your notion that you build a team and a philosophy and then fit the QB into it. You do that if you have to due to a lack of talent, but it's not the way anybody would do it if they had their choice. GB with Rodgers, Indy with Manning, NO with Brees, Rivers in SD... all of those teams were built around those players skills and styles. If you've got a real player at the quarterback position (we're not sure we do yet) then the correct thing to do is build your team around him, not force him into something else.

[WARHORSE]

Build around Tebow.

Thats a wide ranging statement.

Doesnt communicate committment to him as a franchise player to me at all if thats whats being insinuated.

[TheReverend]

What great news to start off the off-season and this week :)

[fvkw]

That would be Ok!! Tebow is a good QB!

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[catfish]

I don't see where it says they will build around him as QB. They probably mean to build around him as FB or TE

[MileHighCrew]

We'll see, McDaniels wasn't going to trade Cutler either.

[Northman]

We'll see, McDaniels wasn't going to trade Cutler either.

:lol:

True dat.

[fvkw]

We'll see, McDaniels wasn't going to trade Cutler either.

Haha, Too true, so ya never know!

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[catfish]

We'll see, McDaniels wasn't going to trade Cutler either.

Jacksonville would sell the farm for the guaranteed ticket revenue Tebow would bring in

[TXBRONC]

I'm sure what Xanders said has the full support of Elway and Fox but Elway's just a few weeks ago didn't seem to be at the same level of commitment.

That doesn't mean that what Elway said and what Xanders said are not in conflict with each other.

[Chef Zambini]

Build around Tebow.

Thats a wide ranging statement.

Doesnt communicate committment to him as a franchise player to me at all if thats whats being insinuated.like you build around a tree stump in your back yard because it would be a pain in the ass to remove it !

[Chef Zambini]

I dont want to hear squat from xanders, BTW, just shut up, keep the payroll in line and make sure JE's coffeee is hot and just the way he likes it !

[Chef Zambini]

they just brought in a cap specialist, soon xanders will follow tuten !

[yuhateme80]

U can build for both read option n drop back passer I not tebow fan yet but one thing he will do is work hard I think we draft players who are agile fast strong on offense I think we need to draft lemichael James as r rb to go along with McGehe then in 4 th or 5th round draft a te then we be good

[MOtorboat]

Jacksonville would sell the farm for the guaranteed ticket revenue Tebow would bring in

That owner is bluffing, big time, I think.

He wants to move to L.A.

[CoachChaz]

I hate the off-season

[Chef Zambini]

U can build for both read option n drop back passer I not tebow fan yet but one thing he will do is work hard I think we draft players who are agile fast strong on offense I think we need to draft lemichael James as r rb to go along with McGehe then in 4 th or 5th round draft a te then we be goodis english your first language?

[Chef Zambini]

That owner is bluffing, big time, I think.

He wants to move to L.A.he has a STADIUM CONTRACT in jax that keeps tyhe team THERE for 2 more years !
those could be awesome revenue generating years with TEBOW as their poster boy !
I think if the broncos can swing a backroom deal for RG III they will go for it, but we wont know of it until draft day!

[MOtorboat]

is english your first language?

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=349166

[claymore]

Jacksonville would sell the farm for the guaranteed ticket revenue Tebow would bring in

You know how excited Id be if this were true. I think if it is, Tebow will be the first trade of the Draft.

[Nomad]

When does FA and trading amongst teams begin?

[TXBRONC]

When does FA and trading amongst teams begin?

I think free agency begins in March.

[catfish]

That owner is bluffing, big time, I think.

He wants to move to L.A.

Didn't the NFL come out and say they weren't interested in teams moving around, that they would expand the league first? Don't know how that effects things, I am not sure he would be able to move the franchise, if not might as well make the best of it.

Not calling you out, legitimately don't know if you can move a team despite the NFL being against it

[catfish]

You know how excited Id be if this were true. I think if it is, Tebow will be the first trade of the Draft.

If the owner is going to keep the team in Jax he almost certainly is interested in Tebow, however it all boils down to how much they think Denver would want for him. i could see them giving up a 1st rounder simply for the $$ aspect of it

[BORDERLINE]

Give This man a full season....PLEASE!!!!! We went to the playoffs with him at QB!!!!
Get him some more weapons. Everyone was yapping that you need a offense that scores 40+ points to win in the NFL. You just seen a team WIN it with 24 points and a great pass rush(good defense). BLAH

[Nomad]

I think free agency begins in March.

This is the only site I seem to have found a breakdown of the NFL offseason schedule.

http://www.buddynixon.com/site-news/2012-nfl-off-season-schedule

[TheReverend]

Give This man a full season....PLEASE!!!!! We went to the playoffs with him at QB!!!!
Get him some more weapons. Everyone was yapping that you need a offense that scores 40+ points to win in the NFL. You just seen a team WIN it with 24 points and a great pass rush(good defense). BLAH

...and they had WRs that could catch a football

Just sayin :)

[fvkw]

It would be great to send him to Florida were he will be loved and adored, and the Broncos can move on with a pocket passer? Cause I don't think they will be able to change his "style" that much.

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[catfish]

...and they had WRs that could catch a football

Just sayin :)

it's not our receivers fault, they are young and haven't had time to adjust to Tebows passes

[TXBRONC]

This is the only site I seem to have found a breakdown of the NFL offseason schedule.

http://www.buddynixon.com/site-news/2012-nfl-off-season-schedule

Thanks for the link. :beer:

[Mike]

it's not our receivers fault, they are young and haven't had time to adjust to Tebows passes

You get paid to catch a ball, you need to catch a ball.

They also weren't great at getting separation and running clean routes.

Shaky WRs, with a QB that both doubted himself and struggled making good throws, with a OC that struggled utilizing his people's abilities. Just an all around bad mix and can explain the offensive struggles we saw.

I don't know that the team should build around Tebow yet. Draft the best talent available, sign some solid FA, and let the team grow with time, practice, and study.

Tebow's play next season will tell you the direction you need to go. Committing either way at this point is foolish, IMO.

[TXBRONC]

It would be great to send him to Florida were he will be loved and adored, and the Broncos can move on with a pocket passer? Cause I don't think they will be able to change his "style" that much.

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He wont make it anywhere unless he become a more accurate passer. EFX has never said they want to make him pocket passer. What they've said is that want he to be able to throw from the pocket which isn't the same thing as being a pocket passer.

[catfish]

You get paid to catch a ball, you need to catch a ball.

They also weren't great at getting separation and running clean routes.

Shaky WRs, with a QB that both doubted himself and struggled making good throws, with a OC that struggled utilizing his people's abilities. Just an all around bad mix and can explain the offensive struggles we saw.

I don't know that the team should build around Tebow yet. Draft the best talent available, sign some solid FA, and let the team grow with time, practice, and study.

Tebow's play next season will tell you the direction you need to go. Committing either way at this point is foolish, IMO.

I don't disagree with anything you said...my comment was said with tongue firmly planted in cheek

[claymore]

If the owner is going to keep the team in Jax he almost certainly is interested in Tebow, however it all boils down to how much they think Denver would want for him. i could see them giving up a 1st rounder simply for the $$ aspect of it


Worst case scenario he energizes the fanbase for a year, makes millions, and has a high draft pick next year.

It would be a great calculated gamble that has no real down side IF he wants to stay in Jacksonville.

[TXBRONC]

You get paid to catch a ball, you need to catch a ball.

They also weren't great at getting separation and running clean routes.

Shaky WRs, with a QB that both doubted himself and struggled making good throws, with a OC that struggled utilizing his people's abilities. Just an all around bad mix and can explain the offensive struggles we saw.

I don't know that the team should build around Tebow yet. Draft the best talent available, sign some solid FA, and let the team grow with time, practice, and study.

Tebow's play next season will tell you the direction you need to go. Committing either way at this point is foolish, IMO.

I agree the wide receivers have to step up their game but imo it still starts with the quarterback being able to deliver the ball accuracy.

[slim]

Worst case scenario he energizes the fanbase for a year, makes millions, and has a high draft pick next year.

It would be a great calculated gamble that has no real down side IF he wants to stay in Jacksonville.

Stop trying to trade my QB :listen:

[Nomad]

Stop trying to trade my QB :listen:

He writes letters everyday to JE and Gene Smith trying to convince them to make this trade and the benefits both teams will receive.:D

[catfish]

Worst case scenario he energizes the fanbase for a year, makes millions, and has a high draft pick next year.

It would be a great calculated gamble that has no real down side IF he wants to stay in Jacksonville.

Yup for Jax no real downside. After having Gabbert they would be primed for going in a different QB direction. The risk would all be on Denvers side, there is a decent chance of it blowing up in Denver's face. That is the reason that I don't think it will happen

[claymore]

Yup for Jax no real downside. After having Gabbert they would be primed for going in a different QB direction. The risk would all be on Denvers side, there is a decent chance of it blowing up in Denver's face. That is the reason that I don't think it will happen

How would it blow up? If Tebow went on to be a great QB?

[BigDaddyBronco]

How would it blow up? If Tebow went on to be a great QB?

Yes.

[claymore]

Stop trying to trade my QB :listen:

Sorry Slim. After trading a good QB for no good reason, I dont see the sense in keeping a bad QB for no good reason. :d

[claymore]

Yes.

In all seriousness, I think its a pretty safe bet that wont happen here.

What happens if we DONT trade him, and he improves a small fraction next year, and we have a worse record?

IMO thats what we will be dealing with. Id rather cut my losses, and let Elway and Fox bring in a guy who is doing the things Tebow cant do.

[silkamilkamonico]

Give This man a full season....PLEASE!!!!! We went to the playoffs with him at QB!!!!
Get him some more weapons. Everyone was yapping that you need a offense that scores 40+ points to win in the NFL. You just seen a team WIN it with 24 points and a great pass rush(good defense). BLAH

Exactly. But we do need to improve on that 17 ppg our offense is averaging with Tebow.

[Nomad]

In all seriousness, I think its a pretty safe bet that wont happen here.

What happens if we DONT trade him, and he improves a small fraction next year, and we have a worse record?

IMO thats what we will be dealing with. Id rather cut my losses, and let Elway and Fox bring in a guy who is doing the things Tebow cant do.

Here ya go, clay! Perhaps a glimpse of hope for you.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/college/fl-jags-owner-tim-tebow-0204-20120202,0,2248824.story

[catfish]

How would it blow up? If Tebow went on to be a great QB?

Not necesarily, It would,IMO, have more to do with the QB who replaced Tebow. If whomever they brought in to replace Tebow took the team to 6-10 or 7-9 you would have an entire contingent of fans pointing out how the team went to the playoffs with Tebow. If Denver wasnt back in the playoffs quickly and heaven forbid missed out multiple years in a row it could get bad. If Tebow found success in Jax it would just make it worse.

It is the same reason I think Tebow is going to have to start losing games to get demoted, there are a large # of people that don't give a hoot what Tebow's #'s look like as long as he wins games. Until he starts to lose they will support him. Trading Tebow this offseason he goes out on top and it will always be questioned how many more games the team would have won were he still here.

Really the only way it isn't a black mark is if the new QB wins more and more consitently than Tebow did

[claymore]

Here ya go, clay! Perhaps a glimpse of hope for you.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/college/fl-jags-owner-tim-tebow-0204-20120202,0,2248824.story

He also says he would have traded back to do it. :laugh: So that doesnt give me hope.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I am not saying that the article posted on the examiner is not accurate; however, there is no link where someone can actually listen to what Xanders said, and the article does not state who Xanders said this to.

The following is posted on the Broncos site:


With the Senior Bowl and other college all-star games in the rearview mirror, General Manager Brian Xanders and the rest of the personnel staff have their sights set on the NFL Scouting Combine.

But before the staff heads to the yearly event, the Broncos will have internal draft meetings to make sure everyone — including the coaching staff — is fully prepared.

“For example, our defensive line coach will get to see all the defensive linemen top to bottom quickly on tape, and we’ll read the character and the evaluation,” Xanders said of the draft meetings. “It gives them a first exposure before they go down to the NFL Scouting Combine.”

http://blog.denverbroncos.com/denverbroncos/personnel-department-in-preparation-mode/

[Nomad]

He also says he would have traded back to do it. :laugh: So that doesnt give me hope.

I don't know. Sounds like the guy may be brainstorming for Tebow. It's to get JE to bite.

[TXBRONC]

If another team makes Denver an offer they can't that's the only way Tebow is traded.

[claymore]

Not necesarily, It would,IMO, have more to do with the QB who replaced Tebow. If whomever they brought in to replace Tebow took the team to 6-10 or 7-9 you would have an entire contingent of fans pointing out how the team went to the playoffs with Tebow. If Denver wasnt back in the playoffs quickly and heaven forbid missed out multiple years in a row it could get bad. If Tebow found success in Jax it would just make it worse.

It is the same reason I think Tebow is going to have to start losing games to get demoted, there are a large # of people that don't give a hoot what Tebow's #'s look like as long as he wins games. Until he starts to lose they will support him. Trading Tebow this offseason he goes out on top and it will always be questioned how many more games the team would have won were he still here.

Really the only way it isn't a black mark is if the new QB wins more and more consitently than Tebow did
I think Im in the minority when I say I need to see vast improvement. Some just accept that "He just wins" like they did with Orton.

If he isnt signifigantly improved I would hope the leadership would move Heaven and Earth to get a better QB in Denver.

[MOtorboat]

I don't know about you guys, but I'm looking forward to shitty quarterback play.

[claymore]

I don't know about you guys, but I'm looking forward to shitty quarterback play.

I expect mild improvement. Enough for the Pro-Tebow guys to hang on to and confuse the long term QB situation.

[TheReverend]

In all seriousness, I think its a pretty safe bet that wont happen here.

Why?

[claymore]

Why?

Tebow has to far to go to become an elite/above average passer. EFX has 2-3 years to provide a quality product. They arent going to waste it on Tebow, when they can get a guy out of college that already knows how to do the stuff they are trying to teach him.

[fvkw]

He is under contract for 2 years, And in Foxes game plan he only needs to be good, he really doesn't need to be a great QB?

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[MileHighCrew]

He was missing guys by 20 yards, that isn't bad routes or dropping the ball. If the throw bounces 3 times before it gets there or is 10 feet over their heads it is a bad throw.
Come on, TT did some good things, but don't blame the young WR's for having to adjust to the worst thrown ball in the league.

[TheReverend]

Tebow has to far to go to become an elite/above average passer. EFX has 2-3 years to provide a quality product. They arent going to waste it on Tebow, when they can get a guy out of college that already knows how to do the stuff they are trying to teach him.

Maybe so, but they can't teach a guy out of college to:

-Truck a db/linebacker for a first down

-Provide a run threat forces DEs to play contain and running lanes instead of pass rush

-Make a LB spy instead of covering his man or sitting in a passing lane

-Extend plays past the breakdown and make something out of nothing

-Make everyone on the team practice and work harder through example

-Etc

You're certainly right that he has some rough edges, but he also has every single intangible known to man, along with ideal measurables and an unparalleled athleticism at the position. Throwing that away (especially when it's as marketable as it is) prematurely would be nothing shy of stupid. He'll work with John and Gase and McCoy this off-season, fix his footwork and with it his consistency and be a much superior product this time next year.

Let's not forget, Eli had a 0 QB rating his first game, looked horrible by any standard from his footwork, accuracy, reads, mechanics, etc, and just won his second superbowl and was only 67 yards short of 5k.

[TheReverend]

He was missing guys by 20 yards, that isn't bad routes or dropping the ball. If the throw bounces 3 times before it gets there or is 10 feet over their heads it is a bad throw.
Come on, TT did some good things, but don't blame the young WR's for having to adjust to the worst thrown ball in the league.

http://hosted.stats.com/fb/tmleaders.asp?type=Receiving&range=NFL&rank=232

Contrast that to our passing attempts and you'll see we were at the top of the league in drops per attempt (drop stats don't include errant passes)... soooooooooooooooooooo...

[Chef Zambini]

It would be great to send him to Florida were he will be loved and adored, and the Broncos can move on with a pocket passer? Cause I don't think they will be able to change his "style" that much.

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forumsbehold the gentle voice of reason.
return to nasareth, tebow.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I am not saying that the article posted on the examiner is not accurate; however, there is no link where someone can actually listen to what Xanders said, and the article does not state who Xanders said this to.

The following is posted on the Broncos site:



http://blog.denverbroncos.com/denverbroncos/personnel-department-in-preparation-mode/

Again, I do not know if the article contains valid information - i.e. if Xanders really said what he did about Tebow, to someone on ESPN radio.

Here is how the examiner works:


The company hires writers to write about select topics then aligns the site with Google Ad Words code and other advertisement to make money. Writers are paid on a per click basis, with an average of about 1 cent per click. So, if you have 100 people click on your articles, you will make $1. According to Examiner.com "pay is also based on a rating that considers a number of factors, including revenue and the quality of your audience, which includes things like subscriptions, page view traffic and session length, in addition to others. Pay may fluctuate depending on any of these and other factors. Examiners can also earn $1 per qualified article that adheres to the rules of the road for local content, up to a cap of 5 per week. Examiners must publish at least two articles within the week to qualify. All articles published will still earn traffic-based pay."

full article - http://www.jobmonkey.com/writingjobs/examiner-writing.html

[TXBRONC]

I think Im in the minority when I say I need to see vast improvement. Some just accept that "He just wins" like they did with Orton.

If he isnt signifigantly improved I would hope the leadership would move Heaven and Earth to get a better QB in Denver.

Clay, Elway and Xanders have said it. Xander saying that they're going to build the team round Tebow is as much a given as the fact that Tebow has to improve.

Elway said that Tebow going into camp as the starter. It's seem to me to be common sense that if he's going go into camp as the starter then you have to try and build the team around him otherwise we're pissing in the wind. So it doesn't matter if Xanders said it or not it's still true.

[pipes]

He was missing guys by 20 yards, that isn't bad routes or dropping the ball. If the throw bounces 3 times before it gets there or is 10 feet over their heads it is a bad throw.
Come on, TT did some good things, but don't blame the young WR's for having to adjust to the worst thrown ball in the league.

20 yards is a little overboard but even if he was....
This team has been crap - for years and he led them into the playoffs.
Something that NO QB in Denver has been able to do since Plummer.

-and that being said, I'm definitely excited to see what he can do next year!

If he's still missing open receivers, starts turning the ball over more, etc....then ya, I say move on.
However, Denver just played in 2 playoff games and any way anybody wants to spin it (it was the defense, it was Prater, Tebow's just lucky, etc) I don't care!

I love watching the Broncos win and I love seeing the hometown crowds filled with hope, energy, and mile-high magic!
-and if Tebow wasn't the QB in 2011, NONE of that happens!

So why not, as fans, stand behind him and see what he can do rather than piss n moan about what he didn't do last year?

Denver was 4-12 the year before thanks in large part to an "accurate" pocket QB. I'll take an inaccurate, mobile, instinctive QB who wins over that any day!

[Chef Zambini]

"an unparalleled athleticism at the position. "
And HIS OWN TEAM, coaches and GM, are looking to cut that OUT from under him, forcing him to be a stagnent, stationary pocket passer.
In defiance of everything that IS tebow.
yeh, thats a brilliant idea, it was JMCDs original idea too !
still just as rediculous, even without JMCD twirling his whistle around his finger.
I have just decided on an addition to my signature;
in DEFIANCE of all that is TEBOW,
we will know focus our energy on making TEBOW
a POCKET PASSER.

[claymore]

He is under contract for 2 years, And in Foxes game plan he only needs to be good, he really doesn't need to be a great QB?

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Maybe so, but they can't teach a guy out of college to:

-Truck a db/linebacker for a first down

-Provide a run threat forces DEs to play contain and running lanes instead of pass rush

-Make a LB spy instead of covering his man or sitting in a passing lane

-Extend plays past the breakdown and make something out of nothing

-Make everyone on the team practice and work harder through example

-Etc

You're certainly right that he has some rough edges, but he also has every single intangible known to man, along with ideal measurables and an unparalleled athleticism at the position. Throwing that away (especially when it's as marketable as it is) prematurely would be nothing shy of stupid. He'll work with John and Gase and McCoy this off-season, fix his footwork and with it his consistency and be a much superior product this time next year.

Let's not forget, Eli had a 0 QB rating his first game, looked horrible by any standard from his footwork, accuracy, reads, mechanics, etc, and just won his second superbowl and was only 67 yards short of 5k.

Tebows Intangibles are of the charts. Its his tangibles that suck. I understand the excitement, I just dont buy into it.

If Tebow can miraculously become a top 10 QB next year we will keep him. If not, they might still keep him, but his replacement needs to be drafted.

[Nomad]

Tebows Intangibles are of the charts. Its his tangibles that suck. I understand the excitement, I just dont buy into it.

If Tebow can miraculously become a top 10 QB next year we will keep him. If not, they might still keep him, but his replacement needs to be drafted.

Right now, Tebow's trade value is at the highest it'll be. It's a gamble to hope he improves (which I'm hoping) but if he sucks then no one will want him for any real value. I see your concerns because you believe the latter will happen when the BRONCOS could have made a move to a desperate team like Jacksonville. I believe if JE calls JAX, they will work a deal out.

[claymore]

Clay, Elway and Xanders have said it. Xander saying that they're going to build the team round Tebow is as much a given as the fact that Tebow has to improve.

Elway said that Tebow going into camp as the starter. It's seem to me to be common sense that if he's going go into camp as the starter then you have to try and build the team around him otherwise we're pissing in the wind. So it doesn't matter if Xanders said it or not it's still true.

To many questions surrounding this guy. If they do anything other than drafting the BPA I will lose respect for the current regime.

[claymore]

Right now, Tebow's trade value is at the highest it'll be. It's a gamble to hope he improves (which I'm hoping) but if he sucks then no one will want him for any real value. I see your concerns because you believe the latter will happen when the BRONCOS could have made a move to a desperate team like Jacksonville. I believe if JE calls JAX, they will work a deal out.

I think we have reached his ceiling. Im with you. Sell high. Let the other guys revolutionize the game with a left handed Full Back that throws passes sometimes.

[wayninja]

I don't know about you guys, but I'm looking forward to shitty quarterback play.

This.

I want this team to bring in another carousel of good pocket passers that fail to get us to the playoffs. I may be fat, but I have designer jeans on.

[wayninja]

I think Im in the minority when I say I need to see vast improvement. Some just accept that "He just wins" like they did with Orton.

If he isnt signifigantly improved I would hope the leadership would move Heaven and Earth to get a better QB in Denver.

No, you are not in the minority when you say that. I think most here firmly believe that Tebow must improve.

The only thing you are in the minority about is your belief that he won't improve. You've basically already written the guy off.

IF he doesn't improve, only the truly fanatical will still believe in him (which I don't doubt will still be significant). But given Tebow's track record of work and success, don't confuse optimism with blind fanboism.

[CoachChaz]

I think it's being over-analyzed. So if the team signs/drafts upgrades or vets at WR, RB or OL...it's simply an upgrade at the position. The front office can say they built a team around Tebow...when in essence...they simply built a team. Doesnt matter if it's around Tebow or any other QB. Is there really a specific type of offensive player that is more suited for Tebow's game than any other game? I dont hink so.

That being said...watch us focus on defense in the draft

[CoachChaz]

He is under contract for 2 years, And in Foxes game plan he only needs to be good, he really doesn't need to be a great QB?

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Which is why Fox will not be the coach the next time Denver wins a Super Bowl

[claymore]

No, you are not in the minority when you say that. I think most here firmly believe that Tebow must improve.

The only thing you are in the minority about is your belief that he won't improve. You've basically already written the guy off.

IF he doesn't improve, only the truly fanatical will still believe in him (which I don't doubt will still be significant). But given Tebow's track record of work and success, don't confuse optimism with blind fanboism.

I think he can improve, but not enough, especially in the time (1-2 years) that he has.

I think it is underestimated how much Tebow needs to change. There were some ugly passes, dropped balls etc... But when you watch the guy he doesnt look good moving around the pocket. It looks like 1940's style football.

[claymore]

I think it's being over-analyzed. So if the team signs/drafts upgrades or vets at WR, RB or OL...it's simply an upgrade at the position. The front office can say they built a team around Tebow...when in essence...they simply built a team. Doesnt matter if it's around Tebow or any other QB. Is there really a specific type of offensive player that is more suited for Tebow's game than any other game? I dont hink so.

That being said...watch us focus on defense in the draft

That, to me is the simplest way around this fiasco. Regardless of what Tebow becomes, he will need a good defense.

[wayninja]

I think he can improve, but not enough, especially in the time (1-2 years) that he has.

I think it is underestimated how much Tebow needs to change. There were some ugly passes, dropped balls etc... But when you watch the guy he doesnt look good moving around the pocket. It looks like 1940's style football.

That's fine. I think you underestimate how much progress we've already seen this season. I'm not saying the progress is perfectly linear, but where he started and where he ended is drastically different IMHO.

I think a lot of Tebow's problems this year have been more with comfort than mechanics or any of that hoopla. When he's let instinct drive him, he's done well, when he's trying to overthink things, he gets into trouble. I don't see it taking all that long as the starter for that stuff to iron itself out.

Beyond that, yes, he does need work. But again, only focusing on what he needs and ignoring what he already has is folly.

[CoachChaz]

That, to me is the simplest way around this fiasco. Regardless of what Tebow becomes, he will need a good defense.

Exactly. Build the defense, add a RB, WR, OL and improve the team. Then tell everyone you built up the team around Tebow.

It's kind of like the suburbs. Developers can say they are building around the inner city. Doesnt matter if the inner city is good or bad or improves or is changed...the suburbs will still be developed

[MileHighCrew]

20 yards is a little overboard but even if he was....
This team has been crap - for years and he led them into the playoffs.
Something that NO QB in Denver has been able to do since Plummer.

-and that being said, I'm definitely excited to see what he can do next year!

If he's still missing open receivers, starts turning the ball over more, etc....then ya, I say move on.
However, Denver just played in 2 playoff games and any way anybody wants to spin it (it was the defense, it was Prater, Tebow's just lucky, etc) I don't care!

I love watching the Broncos win and I love seeing the hometown crowds filled with hope, energy, and mile-high magic!
-and if Tebow wasn't the QB in 2011, NONE of that happens!

So why not, as fans, stand behind him and see what he can do rather than piss n moan about what he didn't do last year?

Denver was 4-12 the year before thanks in large part to an "accurate" pocket QB. I'll take an inaccurate, mobile, instinctive QB who wins over that any day!


FYI that would be 2 QB's and Culter and Orton both lead the Broncos to the same record that TT did this year 8-8.
This was a great fun year to watch, but I am hoping this team grows to the point they don't need magic to win games.

[fvkw]

Which is why Fox will not be the coach the next time Denver wins a Super Bowl

Great post! Very possible!

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[wayninja]

FYI that would be 2 QB's and Culter and Orton both lead the Broncos to the same record that TT did this year 8-8.
This was a great fun year to watch, but I am hoping this team grows to the point they don't need magic to win games.

To be fair, Orton and Cutler didn't miss starting 5 games of those seasons so direct comparisons aren't exactly fair.

[claymore]

That's fine. I think you underestimate how much progress we've already seen this season. I'm not saying the progress is perfectly linear, but where he started and where he ended is drastically different IMHO.

I think a lot of Tebow's problems this year have been more with comfort than mechanics or any of that hoopla. When he's let instinct drive him, he's done well, when he's trying to overthink things, he gets into trouble. I don't see it taking all that long as the starter for that stuff to iron itself out.

Beyond that, yes, he does need work. But again, only focusing on what he needs and ignoring what he already has is folly.

He was bad in almost every statisitcal category except running. I didnt see the improvement ya'll saw. Id say he looked worse in his last game than he did his first.

[claymore]

To be fair, Orton and Cutler didn't miss starting 5 games of those seasons so direct comparisons aren't exactly fair.

Neither one of those QB's had the DROY!

[wayninja]

Neither one of those QB's had the DROY!

One of them did. In fact, one of those QB's lead us to getting that DROY. He went 1-4 having him.

[Nomad]

When can the coaches and JE start working with Tebow

[BigDaddyBronco]

I still think you need to give Tebow some time. Eli looked like shyt his first two years, so did many other QB's. Why does Tebow have to be "the one" right now?

Build the lines, running game, quality at WR, TE, secondary, etc. and wait to see if Tebow develops. If not, then you have one piece of the puzzle to replace instead of chasing a QB and failing to re-build everything else.

I think if they take a QB in one of the first 3 rounds or pays to much for a FA, it will do more harm than good. Next year will also be a pretty good year for QB's in the first round. If Tebow struggles and we don't make the playoffs, then they should have a chance at one of them without breaking the bank. If they make the playoffs again and Tebow is still progressing, then you continue on with him.

[wayninja]

I think he can improve, but not enough, especially in the time (1-2 years) that he has.

Call me skeptical, but I have a hard time believing that any amount of improvement will be 'enough' for some people.

[claymore]

One of them did. In fact, one of those QB's lead us to getting that DROY. He went 1-4 having him.

I dont want to stick up for Orton, but he lost the first 3 games by 8 points total.

I think Orton sucks, but those games could have gone either way. MANY of Tebows games, Id say 6 of 8 could have been losses barring some unforseen magical event that helped us win.

[BigDaddyBronco]

I dont want to stick up for Orton, but he lost the first 3 games by 8 points total.

I think Orton sucks, but those games could have gone either way. MANY of Tebows games, Id say 6 of 8 could have been losses barring some unforseen magical event that helped us win.

What like his magical running ability and clutchness?

[Slick]

So Xanders basically said they're not looking to replace Tebow in the offseason. Big news.

[wayninja]

I dont want to stick up for Orton, but he lost the first 3 games by 8 points total.

I think Orton sucks, but those games could have gone either way. MANY of Tebows games, Id say 6 of 8 could have been losses barring some unforseen magical event that helped us win.

And I don't want to defend Tebow, but he won several games by almost the same margin. What does that tell you?

Are you suggesting that Tebow is magical and Orton is not. I'll take the magical QB every time.

[Nomad]

I still think you need to give Tebow some time. Eli looked like shyt his first two years, so did many other QB's. Why does Tebow have to be "the one" right now?

Build the lines, running game, quality at WR, TE, secondary, etc. and wait to see if Tebow develops. If not, then you have one piece of the puzzle to replace instead of chasing a QB and failing to re-build everything else.

I think if they take a QB in one of the first 3 rounds or pays to much for a FA, it will do more harm than good. Next year will also be a pretty good year for QB's in the first round. If Tebow struggles and we don't make the playoffs, then they should have a chance at one of them without breaking the bank. If they make the playoffs again and Tebow is still progressing, then you continue on with him.

In the end, it'll most likely go this route. Hopefully, EXF makes the right moves to build this team.

[claymore]

And I don't want to defend Tebow, but he won several games by almost the same margin. What does that tell you?

Are you suggesting that Tebow is magical and Orton is not. I'll take the magical QB every time.

Orton won 6 in a row his first year too. He had a shit ton of lucky ball bounces like Tebow did. Both QB's suck.

[claymore]

What like his magical running ability and clutchness?

He does run the football well. Thats part of those Intangibles. I wish he could throw.

[CoachChaz]

Call me skeptical, but I have a hard time believing that any amount of improvement will be 'enough' for some people.

4500 yards, 40 TD's and 8 INT's will be enough for some people to focus on the 8 INT's and how horrible a QB Tebow is.

If he puts up numbers like that and we are contenders...I will whole-heartedly not give a shit what "some" people think

[MileHighCrew]

If the bench mark for a good QB in Denver now is better than Orton, we have a long way to climb back up the mountain.

[MileHighCrew]

To be fair, Orton and Cutler didn't miss starting 5 games of those seasons so direct comparisons aren't exactly fair.

Orton did get one of those wins this season too. And it isn't like TT record was that great the last part of the season.

[claymore]

Orton did get one of those wins this season too. And it isn't like TT record was that great the last part of the season.

He did the same 3 game slide Orton/cutler did. He just intangibled his way into the Raiders losing.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

So Xanders basically said they're not looking to replace Tebow in the offseason. Big news.

IMO, I am not sure Xanders said what the article indicates he said. Here are my posts, questioning validity of article:

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1543370&postcount=53

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1543475&postcount=66

[wayninja]

Orton did get one of those wins this season too. And it isn't like TT record was that great the last part of the season.

He had a better win percentage in each broken-put-him-in-after-the-fact season. Orton had all the benefits in both seasons and still couldn't do better than Tebow's win percentage. I'll admit that the sample size is fairly small, but that's not necessarily to Tebow's advantage.

[wayninja]

He did the same 3 game slide Orton/cutler did. He just intangibled his way into the Raiders losing.

You still won't acknowledge that he started 5 fewer games. Your comparing guys who played 16 games to a guy that played 11 (in the regular season) and saying "See! They did the same!".

For a QB that sucks and shouldn't be playing, it's interesting that he's now on the same level as Orton and Cutler.

[claymore]

You still won't acknowledge that he started 5 fewer games. Your comparing guys who played 16 games to a guy that played 11 (in the regular season) and saying "See! They did the same!".

For a QB that sucks and shouldn't be playing, it's interesting that he's now on the same level as Orton and Cutler.

He is above Orton only because there is a slight hope that he will get better, but he isnt in the same ball park as Cutler.

[wayninja]

If the bench mark for a good QB in Denver now is better than Orton, we have a long way to climb back up the mountain.

My standard is division/playoffs. What's yours?

[wayninja]

He is above Orton only because there is a slight hope that he will get better, but he isnt in the same ball park as Cutler.

He is only when it supports your argument. Otherwise not.

[TheReverend]

Tebows Intangibles are of the charts. Its his tangibles that suck. I understand the excitement, I just dont buy into it.

If Tebow can miraculously become a top 10 QB next year we will keep him. If not, they might still keep him, but his replacement needs to be drafted.

So you draft his potential replacement to go with him and Weber and handcuff his development (why not a vet FA and if he falls flat next year we can start looking at drafting his replacement when we have a better team and better resources to pull the trigger?) ?

[claymore]

He is only when it supports your argument. Otherwise not.Nope, Ive always disliked Orton. I didnt want Tebow to start this year cause I knew we would luck into some wins with the new offense, and whatever other miracles. I didnt want to miss out on Luck, but the damage has been done.


So you draft his potential replacement to go with him and Weber and handcuff his development (why not a vet FA and if he falls flat next year we can start looking at drafting his replacement when we have a better team and better resources to pull the trigger?) ?

I dont want to draft a QB at all this year unless its Luck. I think our 9-9 record screwed us out of that possibility.

For all I care we can resign Quinn. I just hope we dont waste our time and money on matt flynn.

I think the 2013 draft is where we begin looking for the future.

[Lancane]

Originally Posted by wayninja
Call me skeptical, but I have a hard time believing that any amount of improvement will be 'enough' for some people.

That's not true Nin, the problem is two-fold, he needs to immensely improve as a passer - statistically, he was the worst starting quarterback in the league last year and there is no argument against that. Secondly, he needs to conform at least to a certain degree in a pro-style system.

If we run a more efficient offense next year and his numbers are solid - not great, I would say...55.0%, 3,000 yards, 20 touchdowns and 10 interceptions, I would say that he's improving, has shown to be progressing and that Denver should continue to develop him. If we're running a Read-Option based offense because he lacks the ability to conform or even run a Pro-Style and his numbers are similar to his numbers this season, then I say it's time to walk away from this project, period. I'm still giving him a chance, slight, but a chance.

If I was developing a football team and had to pick a quarterback to run the offense, Tebow would be the last quarterback I'd look at. I love his attitude, his character and his drive, but that doesn't win football games beyond a certain point. Eli Manning showed what Denver should want from Tebow, Tebow should have seen in Eli what he should and needs to be...there is a long road ahead and a short time to close the gap.

;)

[wayninja]

That's not true Nin, the problem is two-fold, he needs to immensely improve as a passer - statistically, he was the worst starting quarterback in the league last year and there is no argument against that. Secondly, he needs to conform at least to a certain degree in a pro-style system.

There is LOTS of argument against that as it is simply not true. If you want to focus on a few statistics and ignore his running game, you may have a point, but to categorically call him, statistically, the worst QB in the league last year, I'm going to call bullshit.


If we run a more efficient offense next year and his numbers are solid - not great, I would say...55.0%, 3,000 yards, 20 touchdowns and 10 interceptions, I would say that he's improving, has shown to be progressing and that Denver should continue to develop him. If we're running a Read-Option based offense because he lacks the ability to conform or even run a Pro-Style and his numbers are similar to his numbers this season, then I say it's time to walk away from this project, period. I'm still giving him a chance, slight, but a chance.

Ok. My point was that these numbers will not be enough for lots of people. For as many fanatics there are, there are an equal number of haters.


If I was developing a football team and had to pick a quarterback to run the offense, Tebow would be the last quarterback I'd look at. I love his attitude, his character and his drive, but that doesn't win football games beyond a certain point. Eli Manning showed what Denver should want from Tebow, Tebow should have seen in Eli what he should and needs to be...there is a long road ahead and a short time to close the gap.

;)

I love how we talk about Tebow as though his wins don't count and that somehow he is failing. This is sorta what I'm talking about. We had no business being in the playoffs let alone advancing pass the first round and there's far too many people for my taste lamenting a playoff appearance as a wasted draft position.

He doesn't win football games? Did you really just say that? I think my calendar must be wrong and this is really feb 2011.

The only thing I saw out of Eli last night that was truly impressive was Eli's clutch play. I'm sorry, but that's sorta one of the last things that Tebow needs to learn from Eli. I'm not saying he's on Eli's level, but completing 20 something pass for ~10 yards and 1 pass over 15 isn't my idea of a game changing performance. Eli was solid, I'm not denying that, but you are holding him up wee bit too high. The giants put up 21 points. We even did better than that the first go around against the pats.

The biggest thing last nights game showed me is that Defense is being overlooked as a strength in this pass-happy NFL era and that pass-protection and pass-rush are becoming very prominent because of it.

[TheReverend]

I dont want to draft a QB at all this year unless its Luck. I think our 9-9 record screwed us out of that possibility.

For all I care we can resign Quinn. I just hope we dont waste our time and money on matt flynn.

I think the 2013 draft is where we begin looking for the future.

Agree with all of this EXCEPT for the last sentence.

I think the 2013 draft is where you accept the present :)

[Lancane]

There is LOTS of argument against that as it is simply not true. If you want to focus on a few statistics and ignore his running game, you may have a point, but to categorically call him, statistically, the worst QB in the league last year, I'm going to call bullshit.

Call it what you want Nin, but once the quarterback is out of the pocket (According to the definition by the league - then he's no longer labeled a quarterback and as thus does not receive the same protective stipulations as those in the pocket.) At that point he's a ball carrier, another running back, though the numbers are used in the overall quarterback rating doesn't mean jack-squat.


Ok. My point was that these numbers will not be enough for lots of people. For as many fanatics there are, there are an equal number of haters.

Of course there are going to be haters, but let's not kid ourselves either, a lot of the hate stems from the reaction of loyalists and fanatics also.


I love how we talk about Tebow as though his wins don't count and that somehow he is failing. This is sorta what I'm talking about. We had no business being in the playoffs let alone advancing pass the first round and there's far too many people for my taste lamenting a playoff appearance as a wasted draft position.

He doesn't win football games? Did you really just say that? I think my calendar must be wrong and this is really feb 2011.

The only thing I saw out of Eli last night that was truly impressive was Eli's clutch play. I'm sorry, but that's sorta one of the last things that Tebow needs to learn from Eli. I'm not saying he's on Eli's level, but completing 20 something pass for ~10 yards and 1 pass over 15 isn't my idea of a game changing performance. Eli was solid, I'm not denying that, but you are holding him up wee bit too high. The giants put up 21 points. We even did better than that the first go around against the pats.

The biggest thing last nights game showed me is that Defense is being overlooked as a strength in this pass-happy NFL era and that pass-protection and pass-rush are becoming very prominent because of it.

Nin, I'm not discounting his clutch ability or his drive, I'm telling you - whether you want to believe it or not, that it doesn't mean a damn thing in the end. He'll win games, but he won't win it all as he is...period. The league is a pass happy league, Eli Manning showed what quality, clutch quarterback could do even if he struggles to be considered elite (that was my point). You take it as you want, you'll defend Tebow until he's ran out on a rail...my point still stands, he either changes or he'll find out just how cutthroat this business is, despite his better characteristic qualities. .500 isn't considered winning, it's considered not losing, even with an elite defense, I believe that Tebow as he is, will hinder the team to a certain point. Baltimore is one of the most elite defenses, they still needed solid quarterback play to succeed, not great - but solid. I don't give a damn about one playoff game, I don't care about winning the division, I care about continually being a threat to win the AFC period and going to the Super Bowl, and if you ask the quarterback that is most compared to Tebow...'Vick', he'll tell you "that it ain't that easy".

[wayninja]

Call it what you want Nin, but once the quarterback is out of the pocket (According to the definition by the league - then he's no longer labeled a quarterback and as thus does not receive the same protective stipulations as those in the pocket.) At that point he's a ball carrier, another running back, though the numbers are used in the overall quarterback rating doesn't mean jack-squat.

This is a weak argument, Lan, you know it is. Who cares what the league calls it. Common sense should win out over such an obvious attempt to discredit accomplishment. If I take what you say at face value, I'll simply argue then that you get 12 men on the field with Tebow.


Of course there are going to be haters, but let's not kid ourselves either, a lot of the hate stems from the reaction of loyalists and fanatics also.

I won't deny this.



Nin, I'm not discounting his clutch ability or his drive, I'm telling you - whether you want to believe it or not, that it doesn't mean a damn thing in the end. He'll win games, but he won't win it all as he is...period. The league is a pass happy league, Eli Manning showed what quality, clutch quarterback could do even if he struggles to be considered elite (that was my point). You take it as you want, you'll defend Tebow until he's ran out on a rail...my point still stands, he either changes or he'll find out just how cutthroat this business is, despite his better characteristic qualities. .500 isn't considered winning, it's considered not losing, even with an elite defense, I believe that Tebow as he is, will hinder the team to a certain point. Baltimore is one of the most elite defenses, they still needed solid quarterback play to succeed, not great - but solid. I don't give a damn about one playoff game, I don't care about winning the division, I care about continually being a threat to win the AFC period and going to the Super Bowl, and if you ask the quarterback that is most compared to Tebow...'Vick', he'll tell you "that it ain't that easy".

He could win it all as he is. Lesser QB's have. But that's beside the point. To put him in a sort of stasis or to already claim a ceiling is silly. There is no reason to believe that he won't get any better and every reason to believe h will. I'm already seeing it even if you aren't. His passing, while still inconsistent, improved markedly from the beginning to the end.

I won't defend Tebow until he's run out on a rail, but I'll defend him as long as I see him playing hard and winning, which he's doing. If either of those things change, so will my attitude. I'm not sure why the burden of proof is on me when we have this season to judge. It's up to you to justify why you dislike a guy that re-energized the fanbase and gave us the first postseason victory of this decade and the last 5 or so years after coming off one of the worst seasons in Broncos history. It sorta baffles me why I'm looked at as a fanatic for liking that and being excited what more weapons and time with the first team can bring.

Tebow wasn't .500 this season (nor is he in his professional record), so I'm not sure what you are claiming with that. He inherited a last place team looking to have just as bad a season as their historically bad last. He was 7-4 starting this season (not including post season) and 1-2 last season for a total of 8-6 in the regular season. Both of those seasons he was thrown in. Hardly conducive for fostering success.

I know being a threat to win the division each year and win the big one isn't easy. The league MVP didn't even make it to the big game. I'm not sure what point you are making with that though. That we should go out and get a guaranteed SB contender, since that is neither easy nor predictable?

[MileHighCrew]

You still won't acknowledge that he started 5 fewer games. Your comparing guys who played 16 games to a guy that played 11 (in the regular season) and saying "See! They did the same!".

For a QB that sucks and shouldn't be playing, it's interesting that he's now on the same level as Orton and Cutler.

Actually what I have said is the Broncos need to start TT next year and not draft a QB this year. If TT succeeds the Broncos win and if he flops then the Broncos are in a better place to draft a QB next year.
All I am saying is it isn't like TT played lights out. The Broncos had some amazing wins, but as a fan of the team I would like to see a QB win games without the magic element.
I was also just point out the BRONCOS finished 8-8 and TT had one heck of a losing streak going into the playoffs. Finally my first responce was to the fact someone and not sure if it was you was pointing out the Broncos won their first playoff game since plummer, that was only 2 QBs before. It feels like forever but the fact is it was 2 starters.
I would consider TT on Orton's level but not Cutler's. Cutler is a pro bowler who made it to the NFC championship game and his team had a good start before injury this season.

[MileHighCrew]

My standard is division/playoffs. What's yours?

Super Bowl's that's it...

[GEM]

is english your first language?

:lol: :laugh: That, my friends, is the smell of irony. :D

[TXBRONC]

To many questions surrounding this guy. If they do anything other than drafting the BPA I will lose respect for the current regime.

Apparently it's not to many questions for EFX to attempt to answer atp.

BPA according whose criteria?

[claymore]

Agree with all of this EXCEPT for the last sentence.

I think the 2013 draft is where you accept the present :)

Hahaha, great post. Man I hope you are right!

[claymore]

Apparently it's not to many questions for EFX to attempt to answer atp.

BPA according whose criteria?

Theirs. Whover meets what they want to do as a football team and will fit in well.

NO REACHES!! (on the first 3 rounds) only guys that can contribute right away.

[claymore]

Actually what I have said is the Broncos need to start TT next year and not draft a QB this year. If TT succeeds the Broncos win and if he flops then the Broncos are in a better place to draft a QB next year.
All I am saying is it isn't like TT played lights out. The Broncos had some amazing wins, but as a fan of the team I would like to see a QB win games without the magic element.
I was also just point out the BRONCOS finished 8-8 and TT had one heck of a losing streak going into the playoffs. Finally my first responce was to the fact someone and not sure if it was you was pointing out the Broncos won their first playoff game since plummer, that was only 2 QBs before. It feels like forever but the fact is it was 2 starters.
I would consider TT on Orton's level but not Cutler's. Cutler is a pro bowler who made it to the NFC championship game and his team had a good start before injury this season.

Worse thing that happens is we go 8-8 or 7-9 or something. I want to go 13-3 or 1-15. I dont want any more speculation about Tim Tebow.

[GEM]

Worse thing that happens is we go 8-8 or 7-9 or something. I want to go 13-3 or 1-15. I dont want any more speculation about Tim Tebow.

Yea, one or the other, no more of the middle of the road bullshit. If we are going to suck, suck freaking monkey balls and pick up Barkley. I hated him earlier this year, but I watched a piece on how well the kid can read defenses and it changed my mind. Or Tebow flat out plays ball and we don't have to.

[Npba900]

That would be Ok!! Tebow is a good QB!

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Well now that the super bowl is over T2 needs to cut short the interviews and endorsement circuit starting next Monday and from February-July to get into the film room to learn how to read defenses, locating the 2nd-3rd wr's, work on his 3-7 step footwork, work on improving his throwing accuracy, and performing consistently from within the pocket.

Its a lot to do and overcome but Tim will have 6 months to overcome as many flaws as possible.

What's key here is Tebow cannot come into training camp exhibiting numerous flaws as he did last year.

[Npba900]

So you draft his potential replacement to go with him and Weber and handcuff his development (why not a vet FA and if he falls flat next year we can start looking at drafting his replacement when we have a better team and better resources to pull the trigger?) ?

Meh! You gotta keep Tebow honest and hungry! He needs to be pushed in training camp....plain and simple. If EFX has the opportunity to draft a QB without all the existing fundamental flaws that Tebow has shown you gotta pull the trigger and draft that QB if the opportunity is there.

If Tebow can beat out the competition, then he deserves to be the starter.

[iLands]

he needs to immensely improve as a passer - statistically, he was the worst starting quarterback in the league last year and there is no argument against that.



I don't think you were aware of the divergence you presented.

The hubris in absolute statements get me every time! :laugh:

[TheReverend]

Meh! You gotta keep Tebow honest and hungry! He needs to be pushed in training camp....plain and simple. If EFX has the opportunity to draft a QB without all the existing fundamental flaws that Tebow has shown you gotta pull the trigger and draft that QB if the opportunity is there.

If Tebow can beat out the competition, then he deserves to be the starter.

Lol, so instead of getting a vet that can assist in his development, you want to bring in someone to "push" the guy who is likely the most motivated SELF-starter in the entire NFL?

Sounds like a solid plan... :lol:

[Npba900]

Lol, so instead of getting a vet that can assist in his development, you want to bring in someone to "push" the guy who is likely the most motivated SELF-starter in the entire NFL?

Sounds like a solid plan... :lol:

Its just an insurance policy to make sure Tebow is motivated to work his ass off to improve not rest his laurels on what he did in 2011.

The insurance policy of drafting another QB that can execute from the pocket will serve two indicators, 1) Tebow will know he can ill-afford to have a sophomore jinx. 2) Tebow nor EFX know at this point whether or not Tebow has reached his limit on whether he can make the jump of becoming a legit franchise starting QB in the NFL. But at least he will be given ample opportunity to prove himself, the NFL, and the NFL fans that he's the real deal.

[TheReverend]

Its just an insurance policy to make sure Tebow is motivated to work his ass off to improve not rest his laurels on what he did in 2011.

The insurance policy of drafting another QB that can execute from the pocket will serve two indicators, 1) Tebow will know he can ill-afford to have a sophomore jinx. 2) Tebow nor EFX know at this point whether or not Tebow has reached his limit on whether he can make the jump of becoming a legit franchise starting QB in the NFL. But at least he will be given ample opportunity to prove himself, the NFL, and the NFL fans that he's the real deal.

"Ill afford a sophomore jinx"? What? If we draft a guy that's not Luck or RGIII they'll be raw as shit too lol.

Someone READY to play (a vet FA), is the real security blanket, AND can assist in his development.

I won't even address your assertion that Tebow might "rest on his laurels"...

[wayninja]

Super Bowl's that's it...

Gotcha. Marino, Tarkenton and Fouts all suck. Those teams should have ditched them and gotten someone who could win.

[Npba900]

"Ill afford a sophomore jinx"? What? If we draft a guy that's not Luck or RGIII they'll be raw as shit too lol.

Someone READY to play (a vet FA), is the real security blanket, AND can assist in his development.

I won't even address your assertion that Tebow might "rest on his laurels"...

Hell....who knows, Tebow may have already peaked! And won't improve much from where he already has at this point. Tim has made miraculous strides since leaving Florida 3 years ago and yet still remains a project and has so many flaws to correct. Hence its better to draft an insurance policy at the QB position just in case Tebow can't get any better.

Remember, Tebow hasn't shown he can play from behind center in a true pro-style pocket offense. He was horrendous in that area (see the Detroit, Buffalo, and Patriot games for further proof).

However, when asked to play the option read offense Tim did a good job and won some games. But understand the teams Tebow won against were either bad teams or teams who had injuries to key starters. Teams were not ready nor familiar with the Read Option. Next year will be different as teams will have had an entire off season to figure the option.

[TheReverend]

Hell....who knows, Tebow may have already peaked! And won't improve much from where he already has at this point. Tim has made miraculous strides since leaving Florida 3 years ago and yet still remains a project and has so many flaws to correct. Hence its better to draft an insurance policy at the QB position just in case Tebow can't get any better.

Remember, Tebow hasn't shown he can play from behind center in a true pro-style pocket offense. He was horrendous in that area (see the Detroit, Buffalo, and Patriot games for further proof).

However, when asked to play the option read offense Tim did a good job and won some games. But understand the teams Tebow won against were either bad teams or teams who had injuries to key starters. Teams were not ready nor familiar with the Read Option. Next year will be different as teams will have had an entire off season to figure the option.

While entirely possible, now you've backtracked to simple wild speculation that Tim may have peaked and also that has nothing to do with your "point" re: drafting a replacement this year.

So let's get back to and look deeper at your original option: What round would you suggest doing this? Specifically what players are you targeting? How do you think they'd be able to compete and provide a fall back option in case he fails?

All of this as opposed to an already developed veteran with NFL experience.

[Ravage!!!]

I'm still confused on the philosophy of the "lets just wait out another year and see".... since when does any team simply take a year off? Tebow showed no reason to simply accept that we have our answer. If we don't have our answer, why should we simply ignore the possibility of drafting a QB?? so that we can put that off for yet ANOTHER year?

As far as Tebow being this "huge self starter".... then why hasn't he changed what needs to be changed? Why did Cam Newton go out and hire a QB coach to work with him in the off-season, while Tebow hired a bus to do his book tours?? How come he didn't change his throwing, or work on changing his throwing, after he insisted he would "SHOW EVERYONE" after his junior year in college? He had the time, he had the resources, he had the ability....and supposedly he's this "hardest worker"....but we aren't seeing it. He's being OUT WORKED by players all over the NFL.

[Lancane]

I don't think you were aware of the divergence you presented.

The hubris in absolute statements get me every time! :laugh:

It's the same one that has hampered the league since the induction of the high powered passing offenses - where do we measure the quality of the player, specifically at that position. Originally quarterbacks were called 'Blocking Backs' did you know that? The true definition of the term quarterback is well:


quar·ter·back (kwôrtr-bk)
n. Football Abbr. QB
The backfield player whose position is behind the line of scrimmage and who usually calls the signals for the plays.
v. quar·ter·backed, quar·ter·back·ing, quar·ter·backs
v.tr.
1. Football To direct the offense of.
2. Slang To lead or direct the operations of: "needed someone to quarterback the [brain trust] for the first U.S. ICBM program" (Forbes).
v.intr. Football
To play quarterback.

Now according to league, the quarterback is defined as the player under center who directs the offense and distributes the football during offensive plays. The league also states that a quarterback is considered such only if he remains behind the offensive line, once the player is beyond the line of scrimmage they are not protected by the rules which apply to the position and are at that time a ball carrier.

There is not hubris, according to the fundamental aspects of the position, Tebow ranked near the bottom in most categories for starting quarterbacks, yards per game with a league low 123.5 yards per game. While he was 30th in attempts, he was 33rd in completion and completion percentage, 31st in overall yards, 27th in touchdown passes thrown. Now we can look at the rushing yardage, even then I laugh because the statistics for running the ball despite a players position is labeled as rushing, and not an overall aspect of the quarterback position.

So there is a bit of a quandary, only if you believe that running the ball excessively is part of the position - I happen to believe otherwise and that is my opinion. So besides wins, turnovers and running the ball, he absolutely sucked as a quarterback.

[BORDERLINE]

Worse thing that happens is we go 8-8 or 7-9 or something. I want to go 13-3 or 1-15. I dont want any more speculation about Tim Tebow.

Really Clay. I'm hoping we win all of them but with the way the offense was ran (Tebow strengths) we are gonna have a lot of close games. Some losses will be be a lot. Just hope that's enough for a playoff birth (like this season).

Also just throw it out the G-MEN won the Big Game with a record of 9-7 in the regular season. It's all about catching FIRE and hitting your peak at the end.

[Jsteve01]

I'm still confused on the philosophy of the "lets just wait out another year and see".... since when does any team simply take a year off? Tebow showed no reason to simply accept that we have our answer. If we don't have our answer, why should we simply ignore the possibility of drafting a QB?? so that we can put that off for yet ANOTHER year?

As far as Tebow being this "huge self starter".... then why hasn't he changed what needs to be changed? Why did Cam Newton go out and hire a QB coach to work with him in the off-season, while Tebow hired a bus to do his book tours?? How come he didn't change his throwing, or work on changing his throwing, after he insisted he would "SHOW EVERYONE" after his junior year in college? He had the time, he had the resources, he had the ability....and supposedly he's this "hardest worker"....but we aren't seeing it. He's being OUT WORKED by players all over the NFL.

Because this team has too many other issues to mortgage our future to move up or to use valued day two picks on a qb. You're all in on Tebow for one year. It doesn't mean you take a year off. you shore up other obvious problems and see how this year turns out.

[Lancane]

Really Clay. I'm hoping we win all of them but with the way the offense was ran (Tebow strengths) we are gonna have a lot of close games. Some losses will be be a lot. Just hope that's enough for a playoff birth (like this season).

Also just throw it out the G-MEN won the Big Game with a record of 9-7 in the regular season. It's all about catching FIRE and hitting your peak at the end.

They also had a quarterback that could complete 61.0 percent of his passes, was just shy of the 5,000 yard passing mark and threw for 29 touchdowns.

;)

[claymore]

I'm still confused on the philosophy of the "lets just wait out another year and see".... since when does any team simply take a year off? Tebow showed no reason to simply accept that we have our answer. If we don't have our answer, why should we simply ignore the possibility of drafting a QB?? so that we can put that off for yet ANOTHER year?

As far as Tebow being this "huge self starter".... then why hasn't he changed what needs to be changed? Why did Cam Newton go out and hire a QB coach to work with him in the off-season, while Tebow hired a bus to do his book tours?? How come he didn't change his throwing, or work on changing his throwing, after he insisted he would "SHOW EVERYONE" after his junior year in college? He had the time, he had the resources, he had the ability....and supposedly he's this "hardest worker"....but we aren't seeing it. He's being OUT WORKED by players all over the NFL.

If we draft a QB early, I hope its one that they absolutley love. Unless his name is luck, its not worth the price this year. IMO

[claymore]

Really Clay. I'm hoping we win all of them but with the way the offense was ran (Tebow strengths) we are gonna have a lot of close games. Some losses will be be a lot. Just hope that's enough for a playoff birth (like this season).

Also just throw it out the G-MEN won the Big Game with a record of 9-7 in the regular season. It's all about catching FIRE and hitting your peak at the end.

Im holding out for better. I cant get excited about run, run, run and Punt. Then Hoping a team loses so we can win our division cause we are to weak for a wild card.

Its not good enough.

SB winners have good-great QB's.

[TheReverend]

They also had a quarterback that could complete 61.0 percent of his passes, was just shy of the 5,000 yard passing mark and threw for 29 touchdowns.

;)

If you look at Eli's first 16 games you'll feel silly about making that comparison...

;)

[slim]

If you look at Eli's first 16 games you'll feel silly about making that comparison...

;)

People around here expect Tim to be a finished product and like to compare him to 8 year vets :listen:

[TheReverend]

People around here expect Tim to be a finished product and like to compare him to 8 year vets :listen:

Eli's first season saw a sub 50% completion %, a 55 QB rating (including a zero in his first action lol).

In his second season, he raised that all the way to 52% and a 75 QB rating lol

[Npba900]

While entirely possible, now you've backtracked to simple wild speculation that Tim may have peaked and also that has nothing to do with your "point" re: drafting a replacement this year.

So let's get back to and look deeper at your original option: What round would you suggest doing this? Specifically what players are you targeting? How do you think they'd be able to compete and provide a fall back option in case he fails?

All of this as opposed to an already developed veteran with NFL experience.

What's wrong with drafting a QB who may slip down the draft board who has the same intangibles of an Aaron Rodgers or Drew Breeze coming out of college! Neither Breeze nor Rodgers were starters coming straight out of college.

Elway could still find the same type of talent in the draft while still allowing Tebow to make the necessary strides to prove he's a franchise QB. Let Tebow show in 2012-2013 that he is the franchise QB, meanwhile whomever Elway drafts as the QB in 2012 will have two years to improve and show they have the skills to replace Tebow if Tim is still struggling two years from. This way Elway won't be two years behind the power curve in searching for the Broncos franchise QB.

Don't know who the sleeper QB out there will be in the 2012 draft. That question will have to be answered by EFX and the scouts!

Tebow looks really horrible when playing from pocket, from behind center, reading defenses, and pulling the trigger trying to connect with the 2nd-3rd WR's.

You need to realize that there are college QB rookies that are comfortable with playing NFL b/c in college they played in an NFL system, where they had to read defenses, mastered the 3, 5, and 7 step drop back, and can accurately and consistently from within the pocket.

In one-two years of playing behind Tebow, they maybe ready to replace Tim. Tebow could also fail to develop and make the necessary strides in 2012, that the rookie QB drafted in 2012, may have made the necessary strides in 2013 to replace Tebow.

The jury is still out whether Tebow can make the jump to execute from within the NFL pocket, and he enters into the 2012 season as a project QB who must learn to operate and execute as a pocket passing QB. In 2013, Tebow may still be a project QB!

[Lancane]

Eli's first season saw a sub 50% completion %, a 55 QB rating (including a zero in his first action lol).

In his second season, he raised that all the way to 52% and a 75 QB rating lol

Eli started only nine games his rookie season and had a 48.2 completion percentage, six touchdowns and nine interceptions. His second season he had a 52.8 completion percentage, twenty-four touchdowns and seventeen interceptions, and was well over 3,000 yards passing. Tebow in his second season had a completion percentage of 46.5 with twelve touchdowns and six interceptions, and barely broke the 1500 yard mark in what eleven games? Tebow's numbers were statistically better his rookie season, so he regressed unlike Eli...so laugh all you want, 46.5 is putrid for any modern day quarterback. If you want to scratch Tim's rookie year and compare Eli's rookie season to Tebow's Sophomore year, then Eli still looks to be a better quarterback.

:coffee:

[Npba900]

If you look at Eli's first 16 games you'll feel silly about making that comparison...

;)

Eli didn't have all the fundamental flaws that Tebow currently continues to display so you are comparing apples to oranges. Remember, Eli played college ball in an NFL passing system; whereas Tebow did not. So the edge for development, fundamentals and experience goes to Eli, and continues to put Tebow behind the power curve.

[Lancane]

People around here expect Tim to be a finished product and like to compare him to 8 year vets :listen:

No, we expect him to make strides to improve not regress so bad that the Head Coach is forced to go with a gimmick collegiate style offense in order for the quarterback to be of any worth.

[Lancane]

If you look at Eli's first 16 games you'll feel silly about making that comparison...

;)

Really? I'd trade those numbers over what we saw from Tebow in a heartbeat - only three games in which he didn't complete better then 57.0 percent of his passes, nine where he passed for better then 60.0 percent and even two better then 70.0, he really only had one bad game.

So, if you think Eli's numbers were bad, then you should think Tebow's were god-awful.

[WARHORSE]

Just what exactly is Xanders job responsibilities again?


We'll build a temple around Tebow.

Hooray.:coffee:

[Nomad]

Just what exactly is Xanders job responsibilities again?
We'll build a temple around Tebow.

Hooray.:coffee:

I thought he was a cap guru, but I read the other day, Denver hired another guy for that job.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

imo, i am not sure xanders said what the article indicates he said. Here are my posts, questioning validity of article:

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1543370&postcount=53

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1543475&postcount=66

bump

[Traveler]

What's wrong with drafting a QB who may slip down the draft board who has the same intangibles of an Aaron Rodgers or Drew Breeze coming out of college! Neither Breeze nor Rodgers were starters coming straight out of college.

Elway could still find the same type of talent in the draft while still allowing Tebow to make the necessary strides to prove he's a franchise QB. Let Tebow show in 2012-2013 that he is the franchise QB, meanwhile whomever Elway drafts as the QB in 2012 will have two years to improve and show they have the skills to replace Tebow if Tim is still struggling two years from. This way Elway won't be two years behind the power curve in searching for the Broncos franchise QB.

Don't know who the sleeper QB out there will be in the 2012 draft. That question will have to be answered by EFX and the scouts!

Tebow looks really horrible when playing from pocket, from behind center, reading defenses, and pulling the trigger trying to connect with the 2nd-3rd WR's.

You need to realize that there are college QB rookies that are comfortable with playing NFL b/c in college they played in an NFL system, where they had to read defenses, mastered the 3, 5, and 7 step drop back, and can accurately and consistently from within the pocket.

In one-two years of playing behind Tebow, they maybe ready to replace Tim. Tebow could also fail to develop and make the necessary strides in 2012, that the rookie QB drafted in 2012, may have made the necessary strides in 2013 to replace Tebow.

The jury is still out whether Tebow can make the jump to execute from within the NFL pocket, and he enters into the 2012 season as a project QB who must learn to operate and execute as a pocket passing QB. In 2013, Tebow may still be a project QB!

Nice post! We should all know Tebow is not going to magically master all his deficiencies in one offseason. Just hope he progresses enough to show he is the QBOTF.

That said, EXF have already stated there will be competition. Most won't like this idea and it won't happen, but my choice for sleeper QB would be Terrelle Pryor. He would have been a great fit for this offense. Almost identical skill set as Tebow but with better progress as a pocket passer.

Maybe Allen can pay us back for letting him go.;)

[BORDERLINE]

They also had a quarterback that could complete 61.0 percent of his passes, was just shy of the 5,000 yard passing mark and threw for 29 touchdowns.

;)

and all those yards got him 9 wins too. Not trying to pick a fight or nothing. But in all honesty I'll side with Wins over Numbers. The moment Tebow starts to slip up for long stretches and no longer produces in the Wins category then I will definitely want to see what other QB's are out there.

But to me everyone sounds like We All want to WIN, just not the same WAY.

[TheReverend]

What's wrong with drafting a QB who may slip down the draft board who has the same intangibles of an Aaron Rodgers or Drew Breeze coming out of college! Neither Breeze nor Rodgers were starters coming straight out of college.

Name names. Who do you think compares to Rogers or Brees that will be available in the 20s or in later rounds lol?

I can say let's trade down with our 5th and go after a Tom Brady and Terrell Davis in the 6th... saying that still ain't gonna make it happen.

[Dapper Dan]

Give This man a full season....PLEASE!!!!! We went to the playoffs with him at QB!!!!
Get him some more weapons. Everyone was yapping that you need a offense that scores 40+ points to win in the NFL. You just seen a team WIN it with 24 points and a great pass rush(good defense). BLAH

But rabble rabble rabble rabble! We need a rookie QB. Those are the best. Rabble rabble. He obviously hasn't thrown for more than 150 yards in an entire game. Rabble rabble rabble. He's left handed. Rabble rabble. He should have the NFL awareness of Tom Brady by now. He's started about a full season's worth. Rabble rabble rabble. He gets too much credit. We need someone who doesn't get credit. He's added fans to our fanbase, fake fans. All real fans were there in the 70's. Rabble rabble rabble. Here's a pink elephant. :elefant:
I don't like how he expresses his views and opinions. It's like he thinks the first amendment protects him or something. Rabble rabble. He wrote a book. He was too successfull in college. Rabble rabble rabble. He plays hurt and costs his team the game. Rabble rabble. Even if they make the playoffs next season, it's because of your amazing coach, badass defense, and Willis McGahee. Just like Kyle Orton and his awesome throwing motion did. Rabble rabble. If Tebow's dumbass wouldn't have came up with those last second drives, we would have a better draft pick. He set us back 5 years! Rabble rabble. He does too much charity work. He needs to focus on football. Rabble rabble rabble. He's a good guy, he's just never going to be a high school QB, college QB, or start and NFL game. Rabble Rabble Rabble Rabble.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fEjJ4Ecy9Q

[TheReverend]

Really? I'd trade those numbers over what we saw from Tebow in a heartbeat - only three games in which he didn't complete better then 57.0 percent of his passes, nine where he passed for better then 60.0 percent and even two better then 70.0, he really only had one bad game.

So, if you think Eli's numbers were bad, then you should think Tebow's were god-awful.

Oh really?

Eli's first 16 starts: 50.2 comp %, 68.9 QBR, 3082 pass yards, 21 TDs, 18 INTs, 77 yards rushing, 0 rush TDs

Tim's first 16 starts: 46.5 comp %, 76.83 QBR, 2835 pass yards, 19 TDs, 9 INTs, 950 rushing yards, 13 rushing TDs

So you think Eli compares favorably to Tim!??!?!

Better passing rating, 626 more yet yards, 11 more net TDs and less turnovers.

Looks dramatically better to me....

[hamrob]

Can Tebow become more prototypical? And if so, do you have proof of this? I'm not saying that he will not, I'm stating he has to prove he can, as he is now, to say they're going to build around him, is well a generic way of saying they are going to build the team around his strengths, the same said strengths that I might add which forced Fox to run with the Read Option in the first place because he couldn't handle and seemed to struggle with the more pro-style Erhardt-Perkins system.

It's one of those careful what you say statements because it can backfire. Thankfully, most of us realize that Xanders is the Rain Man of the front office, he usually sounds confused and lost. His statement could be taken as the absence of competition, the inability to coach and conform Tebow and much more. You don't build the team around him, you build the team and force him to fit within that philosophy, if he can not then you tweak it slightly, if he still struggles then you move on.Um...did you watch the Wild Card Playoff game against the Pittsburgh Steelers? I'd say that Tebow looked pretty good in the pocket in that game. Especially, considering it was his 16th NFL start. This is Tebow's year to show that he can be the guy. He has to have a great offseason and show that he can be an NFL QB and be consistent in a drop back style offense.

My money is on Tebow. I think he will improve his accuracy and footwork tremendously....and increase his completion percentage by at least 10% next year. And, if he is able to do that, then he will be our QB for years to come.

We'll see.

[wayninja]

Oh really?

Eli's first 16 starts: 50.2 comp %, 68.9 QBR, 3082 pass yards, 21 TDs, 18 INTs, 77 yards rushing, 0 rush TDs

Tim's first 16 starts: 46.5 comp %, 76.83 QBR, 2835 pass yards, 19 TDs, 9 INTs, 950 rushing yards, 13 rushing TDs

So you think Eli compares favorably to Tim!??!?!

Better passing rating, 626 more yet yards, 11 more net TDs and less turnovers.

Looks dramatically better to me....

You are arguing with a guy who posted the definition of a quarterback with the sole intention of trying to claim that anything Tebow does with his feet doesn't count. Just sayin.

[TXBRONC]

I dont want to stick up for Orton, but he lost the first 3 games by 8 points total.

I think Orton sucks, but those games could have gone either way. MANY of Tebows games, Id say 6 of 8 could have been losses barring some unforseen magical event that helped us win.

The NFL is way to tough to win 6 to 8 flukes in a season. There is nothing about getting clutch play in crunch time. In 2010 season Clay in six of Orton 13 starts we had a chance to either tie or take the lead in the game with the last meaningful possession of the game. Orton was sparkling 1-5.

[TXBRONC]

If we draft a QB early, I hope its one that they absolutley love. Unless his name is luck, its not worth the price this year. IMO

Clay I think they know better than we do if a quarteback is worth the risk.

[claymore]

The NFL is way to tough to win 6 to 8 flukes in a season. There is nothing about getting clutch play in crunch time. In 2010 season Clay in six of Orton 13 starts we had a chance to either tie or take the lead in the game with the last meaningful possession of the game. Orton was sparkling 1-5.Orton sucks. You arent going to find me defending the guy. I think he is a better QB though. Which isnt saying much.

he is also 1-0 against Tebow.


Clay I think they know better than we do if a quarteback is worth the risk.

THe point was, I didnt want the team to reach because they didnt like Tebow. To wait things out, and give him another year. The price is to high UNLESS they are absolutley in love with some prospect later in the first.

If They traded up for Luck, I would do cheetah flips, If they took some dude later in round 1,2,3 or 4 Id question it.

[claymore]

Oh really?

Eli's first 16 starts: 50.2 comp %, 68.9 QBR, 3082 pass yards, 21 TDs, 18 INTs, 77 yards rushing, 0 rush TDs

Tim's first 16 starts: 46.5 comp %, 76.83 QBR, 2835 pass yards, 19 TDs, 9 INTs, 950 rushing yards, 13 rushing TDs

So you think Eli compares favorably to Tim!??!?!

Better passing rating, 626 more yet yards, 11 more net TDs and less turnovers.

Looks dramatically better to me....
Eli didnt have the luxury of having his College offense (or version of) installed for him when he faltered. I wonder what Tebows numbers would have looked like if they forced him to use the playbook that was already installed?

[MOtorboat]

If you list out his strengths and virtually none of them are part of the skillset of playing the position he is supposed to play it's, at least, a red flag. Or should be. To me it's a real problem.

[claymore]

If you list out his strengths and virtually none of them are part of the skillset of playing the position he is supposed to play it's, at least, a red flag. Or should be. To me it's a real problem.

Exactly. Square peg round hole.

[MileHighCrew]

Gotcha. Marino, Tarkenton and Fouts all suck. Those teams should have ditched them and gotten someone who could win.

If I was a fan of a team that had Marino and never celebrated a Super Bowl I would have a problem with the front office of that team. Since I don't think TT is ever going to be Dan Marino, your point is lost on me. So if Miami never won a division championship then Marino would have sucked?

[Jsteve01]

If I was a fan of a team that had Marino and never celebrated a Super Bowl I would have a problem with the front office of that team. Since I don't think TT is ever going to be Dan Marino, your point is lost on me. So if Miami never won a division championship then Marino would have sucked?

No the post was reeking of sarcasm.

[TheReverend]

Eli didnt have the luxury of having his College offense (or version of) installed for him when he faltered. I wonder what Tebows numbers would have looked like if they forced him to use the playbook that was already installed?

Strawman and a half... or are you trying to claim the spread option was last years base? Would like to compare big passing plays and what formations they came out of?

[wayninja]

If I was a fan of a team that had Marino and never celebrated a Super Bowl I would have a problem with the front office of that team. Since I don't think TT is ever going to be Dan Marino, your point is lost on me. So if Miami never won a division championship then Marino would have sucked?

I'm just using the standard by which you yourself set. No superbowls = those guys aren't good enough. But you seem to be giving Marino a pass and hypothetically blaming the FO.

My point is that it takes a team, not just one guy no matter how good. But yeah, I'll say that if Dan Marino couldn't at least win the division he probably wasn't good enough, since the path to the SB is through your division.

[TXBRONC]

Orton sucks. You arent going to find me defending the guy. I think he is a better QB though. Which isnt saying much.

he is also 1-0 against Tebow.



THe point was, I didnt want the team to reach because they didnt like Tebow. To wait things out, and give him another year. The price is to high UNLESS they are absolutley in love with some prospect later in the first.

If They traded up for Luck, I would do cheetah flips, If they took some dude later in round 1,2,3 or 4 Id question it.

My friend you are defending him. :lol:

Ok he's 1-0 against Tebow. He was also 12-21 as a starter for the Broncos. He's never started and won a playoff game. If Orton is that much better of quarterback then why didn't win more? It would be dishonest to say that Orton had all other issues to deal with that Tebow didn't because it was the exact same personnel that he has won with.

I'll give EFX the benefit of the doubt considering what the did in last year's draft. Clay it's seems rather inconsistent it would be ok the mortgage the future for years just to get Andrew Luck but you're going question taking a quarterback earlier than the 5th even if he's the bpa. Luck is a great prospect but there is nothing to guarantee he will succeed.

I don't if Tebow will succeed but I do know that at this point EFX is planning on giving him a chance to prove it whether we like it or not. I also think it's unfair to just flat say he will fail period. Ignoring the fact that with a quarterback you think suck ass worse than Orton still helped Denver make the playoffs just doesn't seen very logical to me.

[Chef Zambini]

guys, orton is history and hardly worth the effort of an arguement, let it go! and BTW RG III is definately a worthy FRDC, top 10 in fact, and if he has a great combine, which he will he could go #2 to either the jets or skins who will trade UP to get him!

[MileHighCrew]

My standard is division/playoffs. What's yours?
I said Super Bowls. Sorry if I don't feel like the Broncos are Champions this year and there is room to improve.
I guess if 8-8 and winning the weakest division in football is the standard the Broncos had a GREAT seaosn and no reason to hope for more.

[vandammage13]

I'm just using the standard by which you yourself set. No superbowls = those guys aren't good enough. But you seem to be giving Marino a pass and hypothetically blaming the FO.

My point is that it takes a team, not just one guy no matter how good. But yeah, I'll say that if Dan Marino couldn't at least win the division he probably wasn't good enough, since the path to the SB is through your division.

I've always had that stance that the Dolphins were ultimately a victim of Marino's greatness.

He consistently led talentless teams with no running game and no defense to the playoffs, preventing them from being able to build through the draft.

What you got was a team that never had enough talent to win it all, but a QB who would get you 10 wins every year and an annual divisional round exit from the playoffs.

[wayninja]

I said Super Bowls. Sorry if I don't feel like the Broncos are Champions this year and there is room to improve.
I guess if 8-8 and winning the weakest division in football is the standard the Broncos had a GREAT seaosn and no reason to hope for more.

There's definitely room to improve, who said there wasn't? We did go from last to first in the division in 1 year though... isn't that improvement? Or we should just fire everybody every year until we win a SB?

I think it's debatable that the AFCW is overall the weakest division in football, but that's besides the point.

[MileHighCrew]

There's definitely room to improve, who said there wasn't? We did go from last to first in the division in 1 year though... isn't that improvement? Or we should just fire everybody every year until we win a SB?

I think it's debatable that the AFCW is overall the weakest division in football, but that's besides the point.

Great year, it was fun. I have said before i agree keep TT this year and make him the true and only #1. If he rocks next year WIn for the Broncos, if he fails Broncos are in a better spot to draft a QB.
I really hope TT proves he can be a good QB and win games without magic, but I'm not sold.

[claymore]

Strawman and a half... or are you trying to claim the spread option was last years base? Would like to compare big passing plays and what formations they came out of?

Im saying the Broncos had to change their offense because he was incapable of running it.

[vandammage13]

Im saying the Broncos had to change their offense because he was incapable of running it.

It's not as if this only applies to Tebow.

I doubt Drew Brees would be able to run Mike Shannahan's offense. Brees is good out of the 4-5 WR spread, dinking and dunking...He wouldn't be as good in a run heavy offense reliant on the play action pass, IMO. You change the offense to fit the player, not the other way around.

[TheReverend]

Im saying the Broncos had to change their offense because he was incapable of running it.

That's completely ridiculous and you literally have no supporting evidence to defend this. The reality is that the Broncos changed PARTS of their offense to capitalize on some of his strengths.

Supporting evidence:

-Tim's success running "the same offense" at the end of 2010.

-The only thing that really changed was elements of our running game roughly 10 snaps per game.

-Even at the start of the year under KO the vast majority of our snaps were from the gun.

[claymore]

My friend you are defending him. :lol:

Ok he's 1-0 against Tebow. He was also 12-21 as a starter for the Broncos. He's never started and won a playoff game. If Orton is that much better of quarterback then why didn't win more? It would be dishonest to say that Orton had all other issues to deal with that Tebow didn't because it was the exact same personnel that he has won with.

I'll give EFX the benefit of the doubt considering what the did in last year's draft. Clay it's seems rather inconsistent it would be ok the mortgage the future for years just to get Andrew Luck but you're going question taking a quarterback earlier than the 5th even if he's the bpa. Luck is a great prospect but there is nothing to guarantee he will succeed.

I don't if Tebow will succeed but I do know that at this point EFX is planning on giving him a chance to prove it whether we like it or not. I also think it's unfair to just flat say he will fail period. Ignoring the fact that with a quarterback you think suck ass worse than Orton still helped Denver make the playoffs just doesn't seen very logical to me.

Both QB's suck. Both started out at 6-0 their first starting year with Denver. Both had collapses at the end of the season.

To look over all the lucky breaks it took for the Broncos to get in the playoffs is remiss. I cant believe you all think this was a real playoff caliber team.

I didnt see a good QB lead us anywhere. I saw a young QB that looked terrible for the vast majority of the season.

With Cutler I saw alot of stuff to get excited about. With Tebow, I dont see anything.

[claymore]

That's completely ridiculous and you literally have no supporting evidence to defend this. The reality is that the Broncos changed PARTS of their offense to capitalize on some of his strengths.

Supporting evidence:

-Tim's success running "the same offense" at the end of 2010.

-The only thing that really changed was elements of our running game roughly 10 snaps per game.

-Even at the start of the year under KO the vast majority of our snaps were from the gun.

I think everyone on the planet accepts the fact they modified the offense because tim tebow was in capable of running the offense Orton ran.

It changed right after the detroit game.

[claymore]

It's not as if this only applies to Tebow.

I doubt Drew Brees would be able to run Mike Shannahan's offense. Brees is good out of the 4-5 WR spread, dinking and dunking...He wouldn't be as good in a run heavy offense reliant on the play action pass, IMO. You change the offense to fit the player, not the other way around.

I disagree. I think Brees would be a BA MF'er in Shanahans offense.

I also think Tebow would do well in that offense. But Id much rather have Brees.

[TheReverend]

I think everyone on the planet accepts the fact they modified the offense because tim tebow was in capable of running the offense Orton ran.

It changed right after the detroit game.

:lol:

...no... no, it didn't.

Proof:

MFotP4gQn-s

[claymore]

:lol:

...no... no, it didn't.

Proof:

MFotP4gQn-s

I cant see youtube.

[TheReverend]

I cant see youtube.

Richard Seymour's post game (Den @ Oak was the very next week after Detroit when you claimed they "changed the offense"):

"The runs were the runs that we saw in practice. We knew exactly what they were going to do and we just didn't stop it. Plain and simple. We knew exactly what was going to happen and they ran exactly what we thought they were gonna run and we didn't get the job done."

Excited for your next new false twist on the discussion!

[claymore]

Richard Seymour's post game (Den @ Oak was the very next week after Detroit when you claimed they "changed the offense"):

"The runs were the runs that we saw in practice. We knew exactly what they were going to do and we just didn't stop it. Plain and simple. We knew exactly what was going to happen and they ran exactly what we thought they were gonna run and we didn't get the job done."

Excited for your next new false twist on the discussion!
All that says is they didnt stop the runs. BFD.


After that Lions loss, the Broncos changed from the pro-style offense to the college-like option game and have since gone 3-0, including road wins over the Raiders and Chiefs.
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_19375511



It's been reported today by Jay Glazer of FoxSports that John Fox has decided to completely revamp the Denver Broncos offense to tailor it to Tim Tebow's strengths in college. If this report is totally true, it is going to be the biggest gamble in recent memory.
http://www.milehighreport.com/2011/10/30/2524864/denver-broncos-revamp-offense-to-tebows-strengths



his deficiencies as a conventional pro passer were badly exposed the following week during a 45-10 home loss to Detroit. Tebow was sacked seven times and threw an interception that was returned 100 yards for a touchdown.

The rout prompted a radical philosophical shift that called for new packages in addition to what Denver had installed during the preseason. The following week, Oakland was so taken aback by Denver’s spread option that Tebow and running back Willis McGahee both rushed for more than 100 yards in a 38-24 win.
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/Tim-Tebow-Denver-Broncos-Mike-McCoy-makes-offense-flourish-121211

[Ravage!!!]

It's not as if this only applies to Tebow.

I doubt Drew Brees would be able to run Mike Shannahan's offense. Brees is good out of the 4-5 WR spread, dinking and dunking...He wouldn't be as good in a run heavy offense reliant on the play action pass, IMO. You change the offense to fit the player, not the other way around.

I completely disagree... COMPLETELY. Brees could run any offense in the NFL just fine..... except one that relies on him running the ball. There is absolutely NO reason to believe that Brees is ONLY good at the "dink and dunk" (as you call it, I don't see that at all from him).

If this were the case, why do you see teams changing OCs instead of QBs?? Because they know the QB can run the offense that the OC brings in. Otherwise, they would change QBs to fit the offense they wanted. Doesn't work that way.

[TheReverend]

All that says is they didnt stop the runs. BFD.

1. ...no it doesn't. It says AND I QUOTE "they ran exactly what we thought they were gonna run".

Not even remotely debatable...

2. You realize you're arguing AGAINST yourself and with me, now, right?

a. Those articles you linked are before the Detroit game... not after. Example: "Either way, I hope the results are a Detroit Lion's team that is caught completely off guard"

b. They all mention redesigning things to take advantage of Tim's strengths, as I mentioned to start this discussion.

[BORDERLINE]

I've always had that stance that the Dolphins were ultimately a victim of Marino's greatness.

He consistently led talentless teams with no running game and no defense to the playoffs, preventing them from being able to build through the draft.

What you got was a team that never had enough talent to win it all, but a QB who would get you 10 wins every year and an annual divisional round exit from the playoffs.

I think Marino liked it that way. He wanted to be the start of the show and throw like crazy. I mean how does he not go into the FO around 1990-1994 and demand a running game and better players on defense!!. He obviously liked the way he was playing, it was good enough for him but He never would be able to will his team into the Super Bowl like our JOHN ELWAY:salute:

[vandammage13]

I disagree. I think Brees would be a BA MF'er in Shanahans offense.

I also think Tebow would do well in that offense. But Id much rather have Brees.

Don't get me wrong...I'd rather have Brees too..

I just think that his strenght is the short passing game out of the spread. I think he would still be good in a different offense, but not nearly as good as the one he is currently running (see his time in SD).

Certain QB's are tailor-made for certain systems is all I'm saying.

[vandammage13]

I think Marino liked it that way. He wanted to be the start of the show and throw like crazy. I mean how does he not go into the FO around 1990-1994 and demand a running game and better players on defense!!. He obviously liked the way he was playing, it was good enough for him but He never would be able to will his team into the Super Bowl like our JOHN ELWAY:salute:

I don't know about that...We had some great defenses here during our 5 SB appearances (Especially in the 1st three).

It took a damn good running game to finally get us to the top and even Elway couldn't do it by himself.

I highly doubt Marino liked putting up yards and ultimately falling short of winning it all.

[Ravage!!!]

1. ...no it doesn't. It says AND I QUOTE "they ran exactly what we thought they were gonna run".

Not even remotely debatable...



Rev, its HIGHLY debatable

I dont even know what you are arguing, but if you are trying to say that Seymours words are "proof" that they really knew what was coming, thats silly.

Example. How many routes do you think a WR really knows? Not as many as you think. But lets say you have a WR know just 8 routes, and your offense has 4 different receivers that all run the same 8 routes. How many combinations of plays do you think their are? THOUSANDS from just those 8 routes and 4 WRs. So he could say "they ran the same routes we knew they would"...and he would be right! But also very very wrong.

Now Seymour can say he knew "exactly what they were going to run" allllll day long..... but its horseshit. There are only so many Holes to run through. Just because they "run exactly what they thought they would".. doesn't mean SQUAT if they didn't stop them. Of course there were some running (and passing) plays that were the same. NO team comes up with new running plays every week. No team runs new pass routes EVERY week. How would you practice them enough to get good at them??

But its been VERY well documented that our coaching staff changed the offense to fit Tebow's lack of passing skills after the detroit game. Everyone knows that. THAT is not debatable.

[Ravage!!!]

I disagree. I think Brees would be a BA MF'er in Shanahans offense.

I also think Tebow would do well in that offense. But Id much rather have Brees.

Brees would absolutely be a BEAST in Shanahan's system.

[claymore]

Rev, its HIGHLY debatable

I dont even know what you are arguing, but if you are trying to say that Seymours words are "proof" that they really knew what was coming, thats silly.

Example. How many routes do you think a WR really knows? Not as many as you think. But lets say you have a WR know just 8 routes, and your offense has 4 different receivers that all run the same 8 routes. How many combinations of plays do you think their are? THOUSANDS from just those 8 routes and 4 WRs. So he could say "they ran the same routes we knew they would"...and he would be right! But also very very wrong.

Now Seymour can say he knew "exactly what they were going to run" allllll day long..... but its horseshit. There are only so many Holes to run through. Just because they "run exactly what they thought they would".. doesn't mean SQUAT if they didn't stop them. Of course there were some running (and passing) plays that were the same. NO team comes up with new running plays every week. No team runs new pass routes EVERY week. How would you practice them enough to get good at them??

But its been VERY well documented that our coaching staff changed the offense to fit Tebow's lack of passing skills after the detroit game. Everyone knows that. THAT is not debatable.

Yeah, I dont know what else to say on that.

[claymore]

Don't get me wrong...I'd rather have Brees too..

I just think that his strenght is the short passing game out of the spread. I think he would still be good in a different offense, but not nearly as good as the one he is currently running (see his time in SD).

Certain QB's are tailor-made for certain systems is all I'm saying.

Understood and I agree 100%. I think Tom Brady wouldnt be successful in alot of places, same as Peyton Manning. Both Great QB's.

[catfish]

Yeah, I dont know what else to say on that.

To take the middle road, it is true they changed the offense around Tebow, it is not true that they implemented his college offense.

[claymore]

To take the middle road, it is true they changed the offense around Tebow, it is not true that they implemented his college offense.

That was probably an exageration on my part. My bad. It wasnt an overnight change either, it was a continued process.

Point being, they changed it. I believe the reasoning behind it was the absolute ass beating we took from Detroit.

[Ravage!!!]

Understood and I agree 100%. I think Tom Brady wouldnt be successful in alot of places, same as Peyton Manning. Both Great QB's.

Same could be said for Montana....although Montana taking the Chiefs to the AFC Championship is reason why I believe great QBs work well no matter where they are or what system. Montana is believed to be the "ultimate" systems QB.

[wayninja]

I think everyone on the planet accepts the fact they modified the offense because tim tebow was in capable of running the offense Orton ran.

It changed right after the detroit game.

I disagree. They didn't change it because he was incapable. (he did beat Houston with it and scored over 20 ppg last year with it, after all). They just wanted to give him the best chance to win because they decided trying to win games was more important than growing Tebow. They probably also figured it would kill 2 birds with one stone. Tebow would either sink and they could move on with a high draft pick and replace him, or he would do well making them look good and justifying their decision.

[Chef Zambini]

That was probably an exageration on my part. My bad. It wasnt an overnight change either, it was a continued process.

Point being, they changed it. I believe the reasoning behind it was the absolute ass beating we took from Detroit.it was beyond obvious that TT was not going to succeed trying to run a typical NFL offense.
yet, that is the expectation for timmy going into next season.
talk about retarded...
it defies his skill set
it defies his instincts
it diminishes his strengths and maximizes his short-comings !

I dont even know who we play, but the broncos will absolutely LOSE their first 3 games with tebow pretending to be a pocket passer.

[catfish]

That was probably an exageration on my part. My bad. It wasnt an overnight change either, it was a continued process.

Point being, they changed it. I believe the reasoning behind it was the absolute ass beating we took from Detroit.

I beleive th beatdown surely contributed. They adjusted to simplify the reads for Tebow, which really isn't abnormal for a young QB. It also took advantage of his running ability, which really it would be foolish not to. The changes also took some pressure off a young O-line.

Many reasons could be listed for the change. Most of them probably have some grain of truth to them. You can argue about which one was the biggest reason, but the truth is there were most likely many contributing factors to the changes.

They went option/run heavy to start, and backed off a little bit after some less horrible passing games. It has been a pretty interesting evoloution all in all

[TXBRONC]

Both QB's suck. Both started out at 6-0 their first starting year with Denver. Both had collapses at the end of the season.

To look over all the lucky breaks it took for the Broncos to get in the playoffs is remiss. I cant believe you all think this was a real playoff caliber team.

I didnt see a good QB lead us anywhere. I saw a young QB that looked terrible for the vast majority of the season.

With Cutler I saw alot of stuff to get excited about. With Tebow, I dont see anything.

That is completely inaccurate. Both did not start off 6-0. We were 1 and freakin 4 when Tebow became the starting quarterback this year. I can respect you don't care for the guy but please don't misrepresent what happened. Kyle Orton started a season 6-0 he didn't start off behind the proverbial 8 ball. Teams that start off a season 6-0 make the playoffs something like 75% of the time. We finished 8-8 in Orton's first season. Yeah same record but it's not even close to same thing with Tebow. Since it's a 16 game schedule that means there were 10 games left. That's also means he managed all of two more wins down the stretch. Two losing streaks of 4 games down the stretch of a season is same thing as inheriting a 1-4 teams and still managing to get to help a team get to the playoffs. That's huge difference in my book.

There is no such thing as luck in the sense of magic. Every game won with Tebow at quarterback didn't come because a blown call, or just one bad play by an opponent that ended the game . It's rare for any team to go an entire game without making a mistake. The key is limiting your own and capitalizing on your opponent's mistakes.

What's with this real playoff caliber team comment? Are criticizing the team for making the playoffs? If you are that's insane. Who said that this team is now perennial playoff contender? I sure didn't. I think we have a long way to before we're a perennial playoff team.


You're entitled to write Tebow off but I wont because I don't that's fair.

[TheReverend]

Rev, its HIGHLY debatable

I dont even know what you are arguing, but if you are trying to say that Seymours words are "proof" that they really knew what was coming, thats silly.

Example. How many routes do you think a WR really knows? Not as many as you think. But lets say you have a WR know just 8 routes, and your offense has 4 different receivers that all run the same 8 routes. How many combinations of plays do you think their are? THOUSANDS from just those 8 routes and 4 WRs. So he could say "they ran the same routes we knew they would"...and he would be right! But also very very wrong.

Now Seymour can say he knew "exactly what they were going to run" allllll day long..... but its horseshit. There are only so many Holes to run through. Just because they "run exactly what they thought they would".. doesn't mean SQUAT if they didn't stop them. Of course there were some running (and passing) plays that were the same. NO team comes up with new running plays every week. No team runs new pass routes EVERY week. How would you practice them enough to get good at them??

But its been VERY well documented that our coaching staff changed the offense to fit Tebow's lack of passing skills after the detroit game. Everyone knows that. THAT is not debatable.

Sorry, but this post is completely laughable:

1. His own links prove the spread option run package was installed a week earlier.

2. There's only 9 routes.

http://cdn.cloudfiles.mosso.com/c1910342/media_center/images/static/media_box/Route.png

[TXBRONC]

Don't get me wrong...I'd rather have Brees too..

I just think that his strenght is the short passing game out of the spread. I think he would still be good in a different offense, but not nearly as good as the one he is currently running (see his time in SD).

Certain QB's are tailor-made for certain systems is all I'm saying.

I don't were you get that because Brees is one of the best at throwing the deep ball and throw a lot of them in New Orleans.

[TheReverend]

Yeah, I dont know what else to say on that.

How about something accurate?

That'd be nice to read for once :)

[SOCALORADO.]

How about something accurate?

That'd be nice to read for once :)

Oh, boy. More Penn St jibberish.

On second thought, i better leave "boys" out of this....:D

[wayninja]

That is completely inaccurate. Both did not start off 6-0. We were 1 and freakin 4 when Tebow became the starting quarterback this year. I can respect you don't care for the guy but please don't misrepresent what happened. Kyle Orton started a season 6-0 he didn't start off behind the proverbial 8 ball. Teams that start off a season 6-0 make the playoffs something like 75% of the time. We finished 8-8 in Orton's first season. Yeah same record but it's not even close to same thing with Tebow. Since it's a 16 game schedule that means there were 10 games left. That's also means he managed all of two more wins down the stretch. Two losing streaks of 4 games down the stretch of a season is same thing as inheriting a 1-4 teams and still managing to get to help a team get to the playoffs. That huge difference in my book.

There is no such thing as luck in sense of magic. Every game won with Tebow at quarterback didn't come because a blown call, or just one bad play by an opponent and it ended the game. It's rare for any team to flawlessly as in not make any mistakes in every game. You either take advantage of them or you don't and it's usually one mistake that loses a game for you.

What's with this real playoff caliber team comment? You're criticizing the team for making the playoff? That's insane. Who the hell said that this team is now perennial playoff contender? I sure didn't. I realize we have a long way to go before that will happen but at the same we still made it and we still won a playoff game at home.

You're entitled to write Tebow off but I won't right now and don't fair to do so.

TX, I think you are right on, but man, please proofread! That shit is painful to read! :laugh:

[TheReverend]

Oh, boy. More Penn St jibberish.

On second thought, i better leave "boys" out of this....:D

Oh man! How've you been?!!?

Excited to run into you that I'll let the PSU knock slide.

[claymore]

That is completely inaccurate. Both did not start off 6-0. We were 1 and freakin 4 when Tebow became the starting quarterback this year. I can respect you don't care for the guy but please don't misrepresent what happened. Kyle Orton started a season 6-0 he didn't start off behind the proverbial 8 ball. Teams that start off a season 6-0 make the playoffs something like 75% of the time. We finished 8-8 in Orton's first season. Yeah same record but it's not even close to same thing with Tebow. Since it's a 16 game schedule that means there were 10 games left. That's also means he managed all of two more wins down the stretch. Two losing streaks of 4 games down the stretch of a season is same thing as inheriting a 1-4 teams and still managing to get to help a team get to the playoffs. That huge difference in my book.

There is no such thing as luck in sense of magic. Every game won with Tebow at quarterback didn't come because a blown call, or just one bad play by an opponent and it ended the game. It's rare for any team to flawlessly as in not make any mistakes in every game. You either take advantage of them or you don't and it's usually one mistake that loses a game for you.

What's with this real playoff caliber team comment? You're criticizing the team for making the playoff? That's insane. Who the hell said that this team is now perennial playoff contender? I sure didn't. I realize we have a long way to go before that will happen but at the same we still made it and we still won a playoff game at home.

You're entitled to write Tebow off but I won't right now and don't fair to do so.

The gist... We were a paper 8-8 both years. I think it took miraculous events to get to 8-8 both years.

Some call it Pessimism, I feel its realisim... We needed serious outside help to get to 8-8. Last minute fumbles, Onside kicks, last second 50 yard field goals, QB's that have been on the roster for less than 2 weeks, etc... etc...

Its not that these things happen every week around the NFL... Its that we cant win unless it happens to us. Tebow had like 2 wins this year where something miraculous didnt happen.

Same with Orton in 2009. He had like 2 real wins.

[wayninja]

The gist... We were a paper 8-8 both years. I think it took miraculous events to get to 8-8 both years.

Some call it Pessimism, I feel its realisim... We needed serious outside help to get to 8-8. Last minute fumbles, Onside kicks, last second 50 yard field goals, QB's that have been on the roster for less than 2 weeks, etc... etc...

Its not that these things happen every week around the NFL... Its that we cant win unless it happens to us. Tebow had like 2 wins this year where something miraculous didnt happen.

Same with Orton in 2009. He had like 2 real wins.

The problem is that you keep comparing Orton and Tebow and there just isn't anything remotely comparable thats fair. Orton got the luxury (and I do believe it is a big deal) of starting each of those seasons. He also had the luxury of playing 1 of those the entire way. Tebow has been thrown in twice and has simply out-performed Orton in terms of results. You can call it fluke/luck whatever, I don't really care what it's called. Until it stops, I'll keep putting money down.

The bottom line for me, and what I like in Tebow, is that if the game is close we aren't out of it. I never had that sense with Orton and haven't really had it with any QB since Plummer.

[SOCALORADO.]

Oh man! How've you been?!!?

Excited to run into you that I'll let the PSU knock slide.

Good. I am a regular over here for years now.
That whole Shanny/Cutler nuclear meltdown at the Mane was just too much, so i made the exodus over here long ago

[claymore]

Sorry, but this post is completely laughable:

1. His own links prove the spread option run package was installed a week earlier.

2. There's only 9 routes.

http://cdn.cloudfiles.mosso.com/c1910342/media_center/images/static/media_box/Route.png

Re-read the links mr factual.

[claymore]

The problem is that you keep comparing Orton and Tebow and there just isn't anything remotely comparable thats fair. Orton got the luxury (and I do believe it is a big deal) of starting each of those seasons. He also had the luxury of playing 1 of those the entire way. Tebow has been thrown in twice and has simply out-performed Orton in terms of results. You can call it fluke/luck whatever, I don't really care what it's called. Until it stops, I'll keep putting money down.

The bottom line for me, and what I like in Tebow, is that if the game is close we aren't out of it. I never had that sense with Orton and haven't really had it with any QB since Plummer.

I cant get behind a guy that sucks for 55 minutes, then needs some highly improbable sequence of events to win the game.

Its fun to watch, but its impossible for it to last.

And... I dont think Orton viewed his position as a luxury. That dude was getting booed since last season.

[TheReverend]

Good. I am a regular over here for years now.
That whole Shanny/Cutler nuclear meltdown at the Mane was just too much, so i made the exodus over here long ago

Haha! That was SOOOOOOOOOO fun though.


Re-read the links mr factual.

The links you posted are actual proof that the change started a week before your claim and that they were doing it to take advantage of his strengths, not hide any weaknesses.

They support my point... not yours. So may I instead refer YOU to YOUR links?

[Mike]

I cant get behind a guy that sucks for 55 minutes, then needs some highly improbable sequence of events to win the game.

Its fun to watch, but its impossible for it to last.

And... I dont think Orton viewed his position as a luxury. That dude was getting booed since last season.

Clay, I get what you are saying...and am still in the skeptical group. However, what every happened to developing players?

Do you think he can grow? Do you think he should be given time (time meaning OTAs, camp, preseason, and regular season games) to show if he can grow?

Outside of getting a highly talented FA QB (which ain't out there) or a top-rated draft QB (Luck/Griffin) is there any harm in letting Tebow have the time to grow?

[claymore]

Haha! That was SOOOOOOOOOO fun though.



The links you posted are actual proof that the change started a week before your claim and that they were doing it to take advantage of his strengths, not hide any weaknesses.

They support my point... not yours. So may I instead refer YOU to YOUR links?


Sometime after Denver’s blowout loss to the Lions, Broncos coach John Fox had an epiphany.

“We decided if Tim [Tebow] is going to be our guy, we can’t do that other crap,” told Jeff Darlington of NFL.com. “We had to tweak it.”

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/11/15/john-fox-on-broncos-offense-we-cant-do-that-other-crap/



"After the loss to Detroit (a 45-10 blowout), we decided if Tim is going to be our guy, we can't do that other crap," Fox said. "We had to tweak it."

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d824253ac/article/smart-like-a-fox-broncos-coach-adapts-to-tebows-strengths

If you dont believe that, i give up.

[claymore]

Clay, I get what you are saying...and am still in the skeptical group. However, what every happened to developing players?

Do you think he can grow? Do you think he should be given time (time meaning OTAs, camp, preseason, and regular season games) to show if he can grow?

Outside of getting a highly talented FA QB (which ain't out there) or a top-rated draft QB (Luck/Griffin) is there any harm in letting Tebow have the time to grow?

I think we should give him another season because,

1. We dont have another option.
2. Its not worth the drama, even if he is beaten out of a job in Training camp.

I think we wasted a year starting Tebow. Unless we can trade for jacksonvilles 2nd and trade up for luck, or a future #1 for Barkley.

Tebow is going to be on VH1 Pop up video in 10 years. Flash in the frying pan.

[TheReverend]

If you dont believe that, i give up.

You should definitely give up.

FROM YOUR LINKS here's McCoy saying they'd started installing and running option plays as early as last year:

“We had done some (option) stuff last year with Tim so I knew the basics. But it was like I was in second grade just learning some things. As the weeks went on, we kept building off it.”

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/Tim-Tebow-Denver-Broncos-Mike-McCoy-makes-offense-flourish-121211

Also, as for your Fox quotes... he had the said same thing to Jay Glazer a week earlier (also per your links) before the Detroit game.

And once again your links supporting that it was adapted to his strengths:

"The Broncos have since fluctuated between college trappings and pro-style plays to take advantage of Tebow’s mobility."

[claymore]

You should definitely give up.

FROM YOUR LINKS here's McCoy saying they'd started installing and running option plays as early as last year:

“We had done some (option) stuff last year with Tim so I knew the basics. But it was like I was in second grade just learning some things. As the weeks went on, we kept building off it.”

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/Tim-Tebow-Denver-Broncos-Mike-McCoy-makes-offense-flourish-121211

Also, as for your Fox quotes... he had the said same thing to Jay Glazer a week earlier (also per your links) before the Detroit game.

And once again your links supporting that it was adapted to his strengths:

"The Broncos have since fluctuated between college trappings and pro-style plays to take advantage of Tebow’s mobility."

from the link...


The Broncos learned the hard way that a traditional offense wouldn’t work well at this point in Tebow’s career. While his first instance of NFL clutch play — i.e. Tebow Time — came when he led an improbable comeback against Miami in late October, his deficiencies as a conventional pro passer were badly exposed the following week during a 45-10 home loss to Detroit. Tebow was sacked seven times and threw an interception that was returned 100 yards for a touchdown.

The rout prompted a radical philosophical shift that called for new packages in addition to what Denver had installed during the preseason. The following week, Oakland was so taken aback by Denver’s spread option that Tebow and running back Willis McGahee both rushed for more than 100 yards in a 38-24 win.

[wayninja]

I cant get behind a guy that sucks for 55 minutes, then needs some highly improbable sequence of events to win the game.

Its fun to watch, but its impossible for it to last.

And... I dont think Orton viewed his position as a luxury. That dude was getting booed since last season.

This is a gross oversimplification. If you don't know it, then I'm not sure what else to tell you.

If you think it's just as easy to start midway through the season without getting 1st team practices and OTAs as an inexperienced QB, I also don't know what else to tell you. It's clear that you think Tebow won't amount to anything. I'm hoping he will and not hedging like you. I'm sorry for what McD did to you.

[claymore]

This is a gross oversimplification. If you don't know it, then I'm not sure what else to tell you.

If you think it's just as easy to start midway through the season without getting 1st team practices and OTAs as an inexperienced QB, I also don't know what else to tell you. It's clear that you think Tebow won't amount to anything. I'm hoping he will and not hedging like you. I'm sorry for what McD did to you.

Its an over simplification. At some point I will start a thread detailing the mriaculous events that propelled each win. I cant do it from work though.

Tebow didnt come into the season with everything on a platter. But, he had a training camp to unseat Orton. WHO SUCKS!!!! And he couldnt do it. He just doesnt look right back there, I think he will be absolutley shut down next year, and this year was a waste. The experiment screwed us.

[TXBRONC]

Clay, I get what you are saying...and am still in the skeptical group. However, what every happened to developing players?

Do you think he can grow? Do you think he should be given time (time meaning OTAs, camp, preseason, and regular season games) to show if he can grow?

Outside of getting a highly talented FA QB (which ain't out there) or a top-rated draft QB (Luck/Griffin) is there any harm in letting Tebow have the time to grow?

Same here. I'm skeptical of Tebow. But imho he's earned the opportunity to try and hold onto his job. No quarterback can be a complete piece of garbage and make the playoffs especially when he inherits a 1-4 record predecessor.

Tebow has a long way to go before he can be considered a franchise quarterback but making it to the playoffs with all of his own short comings as well as the short comings of the rest of team is enough to give him a little more time.

[TheReverend]

from the link...

Well if Alex Marvez says so! :lol:

[TXBRONC]

Its an over simplification. At some point I will start a thread detailing the mriaculous events that propelled each win. I cant do it from work though.

Tebow didnt come into the season with everything on a platter. But, he had a training camp to unseat Orton. WHO SUCKS!!!! And he couldnt do it. He just doesnt look right back there, I think he will be absolutley shut down next year, and this year was a waste. The experiment screwed us.

And look where that got us. Orton looked great in three camps and two preseasons but what happened once we got to the regular season.

Going to the playoffs is a waste? Clay are you being serious?

[claymore]

And look where that got us. Orton looked great in three camps and two preseasons but what happened once we got to the regular season.

Going to the playoffs is a waste? Clay are you being serious?

If Tebow ISNT the FQB of the future then yes I think it was a waste. Not cause we went to the playoffs, because we tricked and fought our way to some squeeker wins against some bad teams. And, hurt our chances for luck.

***EDIT!!!

And, Orton never looked good under any circumstances, he just looked better than Tebow. and thats one of my huge issues with Tebow.

[claymore]

Well if Alex Marvez says so! :lol:

:rolleyes:

[wayninja]

If Tebow ISNT the FQB of the future then yes I think it was a waste. Not cause we went to the playoffs, because we tricked and fought our way to some squeeker wins against some bad teams. And, hurt our chances for luck.

***EDIT!!!

And, Orton never looked good under any circumstances, he just looked better than Tebow. and thats one of my huge issues with Tebow.

If what you are saying is true then who really cares? Every season has been a waste since 1999.

[DenBronx]

So Elway has already gone one record saying that Tebow will be the starter going into training camp which is after the draft. I take from that they have plans for Tebow being the starter next season whether they draft a rookie QB late or sign a free agent to motivate, teach and push Tebow.

Then Xanders said they will build the team around Tebow.


Looks to me guys that this team has no intentions of trading him away.

[TXBRONC]

If Tebow ISNT the FQB of the future then yes I think it was a waste. Not cause we went to the playoffs, because we tricked and fought our way to some squeeker wins against some bad teams. And, hurt our chances for luck.

***EDIT!!!

And, Orton never looked good under any circumstances, he just looked better than Tebow. and thats one of my huge issues with Tebow.

Do you think Elway's record 47 comeback wins were all against great teams? I think you know as well as I do that they weren't.

Clay I think you're arguing just for sake of arguing. You do realize that once Denver won three game Denver was out of the Luck sweepstakes don't you? If Orton had remained the starter he could easily won at least three more games. Denver wasn't expected to be a playoff team but they also weren't expected end up with another top five pick.

The reports out of camp said differently. The ones I remember said Orton looked like a starting quarterback.

[wayninja]

Football is about more than the calculated decision to get good draft players. The best teams find talent where no one else does. If it's all about the draft, why don't we purposefully come in dead last the next 5-7 years and then DOMINATE!!!

Oh, right, because then we'd be the detroit lions.

[G_Money]

If Tebow ISNT the FQB of the future then yes I think it was a waste. Not cause we went to the playoffs, because we tricked and fought our way to some squeeker wins against some bad teams. And, hurt our chances for luck.

***EDIT!!!

And, Orton never looked good under any circumstances, he just looked better than Tebow. and thats one of my huge issues with Tebow.

There are 50 other guys on the team, m'man. Playoff experience doesn't hurt them. Re-establishing a winning attitude and a healthy locker room isn't nothing.

The Texans built their team well enough that they were one play from the AFC Championship game with a scrub behind center who's barely old enough to be allowed out of the house after 9.

If you don't have the guy behind center you don't flail around, you keep building the team. The Patriots weren't a juggernaut offense (as proven by Baltimore and the G-Men) but they rolled over us like Moreno behind the wheel of a Bentley, drunk and happy.

If we were the Jets I would be screaming for Tebow's head and wondering how we could talk Peyton into 2-3 years and a couple of titles before he heads off into the sunset like John.

We ain't them. We aren't set for the future at RB, WR, TE, OL, FB, DT, MLB, CB or S. Or yes, QB. Rebuilding the massive talent depletion that's occured here over the last several years takes time.

Giving Tebow next year to figure it out when we don't have a high pick for a no-brainer QB anyway is all right with me.

The playoff win was a nice emotional boost for the fanbase and the players. There's a long way to go yet. You're right, we're backed into a corner on this thing. If that keeps us from betting on another 1st round QB and wasting another 3 years only to find out he's not the man, I can live with that. Let it play out, and make the team better in the meantime so that if Tim can't be the Future then the next guy has a team around him that can make noise when he gets here.

~G

[DenBronx]

Wait, didn't we have like 5 blowout losses this year?


Can Tebow tackle? I'm sure there's more problems then our QB and why we can't stop teams from putting up 40 or more points.

[G_Money]

To put it another way:

When I hear Xanders say the team will "build around" Tebow I imagine constructing a magnificent edifice that leaves just one piece open: QB.

And if Tebow can be the QB, then he can fit that slot, and if not then another guy can step in to take this team somewhere, but it'll be built for contention regardless.

Because it's true that without a QB it's damn hard to win a Super Bowl. Without a good team it's basically impossible.

~G

[Mike]

Wait, didn't we have like 5 blowout losses this year?


Can Tebow tackle? I'm sure there's more problems then our QB and why we can't stop teams from putting up 40 or more points.

There are problems on both sides of the ball. G is right in saying this team is depleted on talent. The coaching staff got a lot of the rabble that McD left us with...which says a lot about them...OC aside ;).

That said, offenses should share in the blame in blowouts. We shouldn't be having near as many 3 and outs. Your offense has to move the ball and win field position. I am not taking defense into account here...they are an entirely separate issue. I am just saying that the offense has to do something too. Too many games we all watched crap for 3 quarters. The blame can be debated and placed on different areas, but unacceptable regardless.

Tebow can't stop the other team. But he can help the offense score...and there wasn't nearly enough of that last year.

[claymore]

There are 50 other guys on the team, m'man. Playoff experience doesn't hurt them. Re-establishing a winning attitude and a healthy locker room isn't nothing.

The Texans built their team well enough that they were one play from the AFC Championship game with a scrub behind center who's barely old enough to be allowed out of the house after 9.

If you don't have the guy behind center you don't flail around, you keep building the team. The Patriots weren't a juggernaut offense (as proven by Baltimore and the G-Men) but they rolled over us like Moreno behind the wheel of a Bentley, drunk and happy.

If we were the Jets I would be screaming for Tebow's head and wondering how we could talk Peyton into 2-3 years and a couple of titles before he heads off into the sunset like John.

We ain't them. We aren't set for the future at RB, WR, TE, OL, FB, DT, MLB, CB or S. Or yes, QB. Rebuilding the massive talent depletion that's occured here over the last several years takes time.

Giving Tebow next year to figure it out when we don't have a high pick for a no-brainer QB anyway is all right with me.

The playoff win was a nice emotional boost for the fanbase and the players. There's a long way to go yet. You're right, we're backed into a corner on this thing. If that keeps us from betting on another 1st round QB and wasting another 3 years only to find out he's not the man, I can live with that. Let it play out, and make the team better in the meantime so that if Tim can't be the Future then the next guy has a team around him that can make noise when he gets here.

~G

All great points. Tebow isnt the only weak spot on the team. I got that. I cant think of a QB other than Luck I would want to draft this year.

I dont think Fox wants to let his career ride on Tebows shoulders if he doesnt make signifigant strides next year.

[DenBronx]

All great points. Tebow isnt the only weak spot on the team. I got that. I cant think of a QB other than Luck I would want to draft this year.

I dont think Fox wants to let his career ride on Tebows shoulders if he doesnt make signifigant strides next year.

Luck is the only QB that I think would justify letting Tebow go.

I feel bad for even saying that because I really believe in T2.

[Lancane]

Luck is the only QB that I think would justify letting Tebow go.

I feel bad for even saying that because I really believe in T2.

I'd trade Tebow for near half the starting quarterbacks in this league and about any first round quarterback. So to each his own I suppose.

[Ravage!!!]

Sorry, but this post is completely laughable:

1. His own links prove the spread option run package was installed a week earlier.

2. There's only 9 routes.

http://cdn.cloudfiles.mosso.com/c1910342/media_center/images/static/media_box/Route.png

That tree is inaccurate as there are more than nine routes, but then it doesn't matter per the example given. Everything in my post was exactly right.

Its not my fault you use poor examples that support your point.

[Lancane]

G, while I agree that we've been depleted of talent to some extent (Cutler, Marshall and Hillis to name the main three) we've not lost so much that we're somewhere new. This team does have talent, the problem is that most people gaff at the possibility that the Broncos as an organization are screwing the pooch, that maybe one player does make a difference. We had a handful of players go to the Pro-Bowl, the first in a long-time and we have a roster riddled with youth - so at the same time that I believe we need more talent, we're not that far off if the right talent is added.

This is football, not rocket science, people need to quit treating it as such. There are four major areas of concern IMHO, defensive tackle...especially depending on what happens with Bunkley. Running back of course, McGahee is far to long in the tooth to be a workhorse and our starting fullback is a free agent. Middle linebacker needs to be addressed with Mays a free agent and an upgrade would be nice. And lastly the passing game, that means at the positions which make that part of the offense work. We have some talent at tight end, we also have talent at the receiver positions but could use a little more. The biggest concern for me is the lack of talent at the quarterback position...don't get me wrong, Tebow has talent, but not exactly the talent that screams NFL quarterback.

I don't feel people will be content till the team is at a point that there is nowhere to put the blame besides on the quarterback...a series of elimination if you will. Even I have been a part of this, blaming much on McCoy and maybe the biggest issue we have is the quarterback. Yeah, he's a nice guy, with tremendous drive and great character. But would you trade him for most other starting quarterbacks in the league at this moment? I know I would. I think a lot of people refuse to look at it that way G, instead it's everyone else till the point it can not be, because Tim is so likable. And all I have to say is remember 'Ted Bundy', he was likable, outgoing and considered to be of good character, but he also ended up being one of the nations most sadistic serial killers - and I'm not saying Tim is a serial killer, what I am saying is just like Bundy, sometimes when you overlook certain issues due to character, personality and so forth, that you forget that somethings are far more important, for Tim it's the lack of talent to play the position at this level.

I'm willing to see if he improves, and I hope he does. But I also wouldn't bank on him transforming in one off-season into a franchise capable quarterback, the chances are slim that he can, after all - he's been in the league for two seasons and IMHO hasn't improved.

[catfish]

G, while I agree that we've been depleted of talent to some extent (Cutler, Marshall and Hillis to name the main three) we've not lost so much that we're somewhere new. This team does have talent, the problem is that most people gaff at the possibility that the Broncos as an organization are screwing the pooch, that maybe one player does make a difference. We had a handful of players go to the Pro-Bowl, the first in a long-time and we have a roster riddled with youth - so at the same time that I believe we need more talent, we're not that far off if the right talent is added.

This is football, not rocket science, people need to quit treating it as such. There are four major areas of concern IMHO, defensive tackle...especially depending on what happens with Bunkley. Running back of course, McGahee is far to long in the tooth to be a workhorse and our starting fullback is a free agent. Middle linebacker needs to be addressed with Mays a free agent and an upgrade would be nice. And lastly the passing game, that means at the positions which make that part of the offense work. We have some talent at tight end, we also have talent at the receiver positions but could use a little more. The biggest concern for me is the lack of talent at the quarterback position...don't get me wrong, Tebow has talent, but not exactly the talent that screams NFL quarterback.

I don't feel people will be content till the team is at a point that there is nowhere to put the blame besides on the quarterback...a series of elimination if you will. Even I have been a part of this, blaming much on McCoy and maybe the biggest issue we have is the quarterback. Yeah, he's a nice guy, with tremendous drive and great character. But would you trade him for most other starting quarterbacks in the league at this moment? I know I would. I think a lot of people refuse to look at it that way G, instead it's everyone else till the point it can not be, because Tim is so likable. And all I have to say is remember 'Ted Bundy', he was likable, outgoing and considered to be of good character, but he also ended up being one of the nations most sadistic serial killers - and I'm not saying Tim is a serial killer, what I am saying is just like Bundy, sometimes when you overlook certain issues due to character, personality and so forth, that you forget that somethings are far more important, for Tim it's the lack of talent to play the position at this level.

I'm willing to see if he improves, and I hope he does. But I also wouldn't bank on him transforming in one off-season into a franchise capable quarterback, the chances are slim that he can, after all - he's been in the league for two seasons and IMHO hasn't improved.

You don't feel there is any issue with the play of the O-line? I personally think it is one of the overall largest holes on the team

[wayninja]

I'd trade Tebow for near half the starting quarterbacks in this league and about any first round quarterback. So to each his own I suppose.

Sorry, but there is no way we could get 17 quarterbacks for Tebow.

[TheReverend]

That tree is inaccurate as there are more than nine routes, but then it doesn't matter per the example given. Everything in my post was exactly right.

Its not my fault you use poor examples that support your point.

lol no there aren't. Outside of those routes you only have mild variations ie: deep outs, deep posts, etc.

Nice try though.

[wayninja]

G, while I agree that we've been depleted of talent to some extent (Cutler, Marshall and Hillis to name the main three) we've not lost so much that we're somewhere new. This team does have talent, the problem is that most people gaff at the possibility that the Broncos as an organization are screwing the pooch, that maybe one player does make a difference. We had a handful of players go to the Pro-Bowl, the first in a long-time and we have a roster riddled with youth - so at the same time that I believe we need more talent, we're not that far off if the right talent is added.

This is football, not rocket science, people need to quit treating it as such. There are four major areas of concern IMHO, defensive tackle...especially depending on what happens with Bunkley. Running back of course, McGahee is far to long in the tooth to be a workhorse and our starting fullback is a free agent. Middle linebacker needs to be addressed with Mays a free agent and an upgrade would be nice. And lastly the passing game, that means at the positions which make that part of the offense work. We have some talent at tight end, we also have talent at the receiver positions but could use a little more. The biggest concern for me is the lack of talent at the quarterback position...don't get me wrong, Tebow has talent, but not exactly the talent that screams NFL quarterback.

I don't feel people will be content till the team is at a point that there is nowhere to put the blame besides on the quarterback...a series of elimination if you will. Even I have been a part of this, blaming much on McCoy and maybe the biggest issue we have is the quarterback. Yeah, he's a nice guy, with tremendous drive and great character. But would you trade him for most other starting quarterbacks in the league at this moment? I know I would. I think a lot of people refuse to look at it that way G, instead it's everyone else till the point it can not be, because Tim is so likable. And all I have to say is remember 'Ted Bundy', he was likable, outgoing and considered to be of good character, but he also ended up being one of the nations most sadistic serial killers - and I'm not saying Tim is a serial killer, what I am saying is just like Bundy, sometimes when you overlook certain issues due to character, personality and so forth, that you forget that somethings are far more important, for Tim it's the lack of talent to play the position at this level.

I'm willing to see if he improves, and I hope he does. But I also wouldn't bank on him transforming in one off-season into a franchise capable quarterback, the chances are slim that he can, after all - he's been in the league for two seasons and IMHO hasn't improved.

I do like Tebow personally. I think he's a good role model and the fact that you can almost guarantee that he won't have off-field issues is certainly a plus. However, none of that is blinding me to what he is. If anything winning ballgames and even a post-season game is what is 'blinding' me if that's what you want to call it. I am also convinced that there are similar group of people that so deeply dislike Tebow for who he is that they don't want to see him even be given a chance and abhor or otherwise make excuses for any success he finds.

You say not to treat this like rocket science yet you keep wanting to use statistics to back up how terrible you feel he is. When I see him play, I see a lot that is fixable and a lot that you simply cannot teach. I happen to like what I think he can become while you happen to think he's already all he can be.

I guess time will tell.

[Lancane]

You don't feel there is any issue with the play of the O-line? I personally think it is one of the overall largest holes on the team

The offensive line has been forced to undergo different blocking philosophies to fit the changes in the offense, not to mention that besides Clady and Kuper that the rest of the line was made up of two sophomores and a rookie. Franklin improved as the season wore on as did Walton, Beadles continues to struggle. But this offensive line is young, and at several times throughout the year was called the best young line in the league by those around the NFL.

Again, we'll see people blame everyone else till there is no one else to blame.

[Lancane]

Sorry, but there is no way we could get 17 quarterbacks for Tebow.

Smartass! :lol:

[Jsteve01]

That tree is inaccurate as there are more than nine routes, but then it doesn't matter per the example given. Everything in my post was exactly right.

Its not my fault you use poor examples that support your point.

Rav in a standard route tree there are nine routes.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

To put it another way:

When I hear Xanders say the team will "build around" Tebow I imagine constructing a magnificent edifice that leaves just one piece open: QB.

And if Tebow can be the QB, then he can fit that slot, and if not then another guy can step in to take this team somewhere, but it'll be built for contention regardless.

Because it's true that without a QB it's damn hard to win a Super Bowl. Without a good team it's basically impossible.

~G

The following is what I posted yesterday - We do NOT know if that is what Xanders said. Keep in mind that anyone can write articles for the examiner - just like bleacher report.

What I posted yesterday:

"I am not saying that the article posted on the examiner is not accurate; however, there is no link where someone can actually listen to what Xanders said, and the article does not state who Xanders said this to."


Again, I do not know if the article contains valid information - i.e. if Xanders really said what he did about Tebow, to someone on ESPN radio.

Here is how the examiner works:


The company hires writers to write about select topics then aligns the site with Google Ad Words code and other advertisement to make money. Writers are paid on a per click basis, with an average of about 1 cent per click. So, if you have 100 people click on your articles, you will make $1. According to Examiner.com "pay is also based on a rating that considers a number of factors, including revenue and the quality of your audience, which includes things like subscriptions, page view traffic and session length, in addition to others. Pay may fluctuate depending on any of these and other factors. Examiners can also earn $1 per qualified article that adheres to the rules of the road for local content, up to a cap of 5 per week. Examiners must publish at least two articles within the week to qualify. All articles published will still earn traffic-based pay."

full article - http://www.jobmonkey.com/writingjobs...r-writing.html

With writers being paid on a per click basis - I would imagine this article has had many clicks already, with more to come

[wayninja]

The offensive line has been forced to undergo different blocking philosophies to fit the changes in the offense, not to mention that besides Clady and Kuper that the rest of the line was made up of two sophomores and a rookie. Franklin improved as the season wore on as did Walton, Beadles continues to struggle. But this offensive line is young, and at several times throughout the year was called the best young line in the league by those around the NFL.

Again, we'll see people blame everyone else till there is no one else to blame.

The offensive has been forced to undergo different passing/running philosphies to fit the changes in personel, not to mention that besides McGahee and Royal that the rest of the offense was made up of sophomores and 1st season with the Broncos guys. Thomas improved as the season wore on as did Decker, Royal continues to struggle. But this receiving corp is young, and at several times throughout the year was called decent in the league by those around the NFL.

Again, we'll see people blame everyone else till there is no one else to blame.

[catfish]

The offensive line has been forced to undergo different blocking philosophies to fit the changes in the offense, not to mention that besides Clady and Kuper that the rest of the line was made up of two sophomores and a rookie. Franklin improved as the season wore on as did Walton, Beadles continues to struggle. But this offensive line is young, and at several times throughout the year was called the best young line in the league by those around the NFL.

Again, we'll see people blame everyone else till there is no one else to blame.

I have never heard anyone call this the best young o-line in the league. I have actually seen several sources call it the worst o-line in the league. I beleive PFF had them ranked last overall statistically. I have seen several reports that Walton is the worst center in the league. The line gave up an above average number of quick sacks despite having a QB that is able to escape pressure, they had the 2nd lowest % of 3rd and short rushing conversions in the NFL a full 10% lower conversion rate than the rest of the NFL. McGahee has one of the highest yards after contact numbers in the NFL.They are young and so they get a pass? If you are going to condemn Tebow for poor play after 16 games you better judge them all on the same curve. Almost all all if not all of them have the same or more in game experience than Tebow. If you are ready to toss the QB, which is by far the hardest position to pick up, you should be ready to scrap the line, if they haven't got it by now they wont ever get it.

You have 2 receivers in the bottom 15 for drop %, I don't care what the excuses are it is crazy to think that there is any position of strength on this offense other than RB, and even that spot lacks depth. There is exactly 2 starters at their position on offense. Yet you are only ready to blame one guy for all the struggles.

Tebow needs to improve, I don't think he needs to become elite next year, just show continued improvement. There is no guarantee that any draftee they pick will come in and do any better than Tebow, look at Bradford Clausen, McCoy and Gabbert

[G_Money]

I'm willing to see if he improves, and I hope he does. But I also wouldn't bank on him transforming in one off-season into a franchise capable quarterback, the chances are slim that he can, after all - he's been in the league for two seasons and IMHO hasn't improved.

Comping Tebow to serial killers. :lol: Good times. :salute:

Anyway, I agree that he is SUPER nice so most people hate to see bad things happen to a genuinely nice guy. That's probably part of it.

The other is that he's a project. Drew Brees was a project. Brees was such a project that SD gave up on him after 3 years of "no progress" and let NO win the Superbowl the Chargers should have had.

Steve McNair was a project, and took several years to hit "great QB" stride. He spent 3 years as a terrible QB who could run, 2 more as a middle-of-the-pack guy and then hit his stride for several years before injuries ran him down.

Can a Steve McNair type win in the modern NFL? I think so, absolutely.

But you can't acknowledge on the one hand that Tebow was a 3ish year project, minimum, which is why he shouldn't have been a first-rounder...and then not want to give him the 3 years.

Not saying you're doing that, but a lot of people who have always thought he was a massive project don't want to undertake the project at all.

That's okay.

But if the Broncos ARE gonna undertake the project, then he's gonna need another year or two of seasoning before he's really ready. Are those thrown-away years?

Clay thinks so. Any year that doesn't end with a Super Bowl victory and a QB for the next 15 years is wasted. I think that standard is both a lil high and a bit short-sighted.

"I don't want a project QB" is a fine statement. Better find a vet then, because Bradford is a project QB, Ryan took until his 3rd season of starting to really hit a decent stride, Alex Smith took FIVE years, Flacco and Sanchez still have detractors and need to grow as QBs...

For all the talk that a QB should be able to step into the NFL and start from day one, precious few can do it well. Most can do it better than Tebow...

But like I said, he's a project and always has been. Only his most ardent (and possibly mouth-foaming) supporters would think he was ready to win a SB out of the gate.

Brees leapt from "eh" to "holy crap!! :eek:" in one offseason, after 2 very mediocre years and a year on the bench to boot. Guys do make offseason improvements, and have things click that they couldn't focus on in the regular season.

*shrugs* I dunno if Tebow will. He'll have to if he wants to be the QB here long-term, but we won't know til after camp starts and even into the season.

In the meantime, fix the rest of the passing game, the RB situation, the middle of the defense, etc. And maybe we can knock some years off the next QB's growth curve in the process.

~G

[G_Money]

With writers being paid on a per click basis - I would imagine this article has had many clicks already, with more to come

A cent per click??

WTH am I posting here? I can go make lunch money over there. Excuse me...

~G

[Ravage!!!]

Rav in a standard route tree there are nine routes.

I'm very familiar with the "route tree".. I actually was only giving an example for mathematical reasons. However, that being said, the "directional tree" that is listed with a "standard route tree"... is purely that... a directional tree.

It shows up, down, left, right, the four 45 degree and a 'flat'.... thats about as basic as you can get. If I were to give a TRUE mathematical example to fit my previous post, it would include more than the very basic "route tree" that you show to grade-school children.

[wayninja]

I'm very familiar with the "route tree".. I actually was only giving an example for mathematical reasons. However, that being said, the "directional tree" that is listed with a "standard route tree"... is purely that... a directional tree.

It shows up, down, left, right, the four 45 degree and a 'flat'.... thats about as basic as you can get. If I were to give a TRUE mathematical example to fit my previous post, it would include more than the very basic "route tree" that you show to grade-school children.

Rav is right, there are literally hundreds of thousands of permutations of routes in the NFL. This proves that offenses are impossible to defend against because of the sheer crushing weight of football science!!!!

That was the point of your 3 or 4 pages of this stuff, right?

[Denver Native (Carol)]

A cent per click??

WTH am I posting here? I can go make lunch money over there. Excuse me...

~G

Well you may be able to make more - just pick the hottest topic, say things which may be not be true, and sit back and wait for the clicks to pile up.;)