Elway: Tebow is the starter, but Broncos are in the QB market [Archive]

Lancane

01-30-2012, 06:58 PM

Looks like they are going to let Brady Quinn go. Trade or release.

Brady Quinn is no longer under contract, and they still have to give up a pick for that awful trade.

As for the rest, people can sit here and debate where we'll be taking a quarterback in the draft, the most likely scenario is BPA, so it'll likely be whoever they've got ranked who falls into their laps. If they have Nick Foles rated high and he falls to them in the second? Or maybe they like Brock Osweiler more then the linebacker that is there in the third round...I still expect Denver to take who they like best or they feel betters the team, I don't care if they pull the trigger and take Tannehill in the first, if they feel that's best. This team needs to improve in several positions and quarterback is one of them, if Tebow flutters and doesn't improve and is doing the same old song and dance next year he did this season, he needs to be replaced and the team needs to move on.

Tebow will have to improve drastically IMHO for Elway and Fox to continue into the season with him again.

PAINTERDAVE

01-30-2012, 11:39 PM

We have precious few draft picks as it is... we need DEFENSE...
some meat and potatos..
NOT a sexy pick of a QB just to make a splash in the papers.
We need SOLID PICKS.

Same as we got Weber undrafted..
I expect another undrafted QB..
and a vet.

I would be major surprised to see them go for a Rookie QB with a 2nd round pick...
a rookie that would most likely only ride the bench.

That would pretty much be a wasted pick.

DenBronx

01-30-2012, 11:47 PM

bcbronc

01-30-2012, 11:55 PM

Sign the best vet QB that will sign here, bring in a UDFA to compete with Weber for the #3 spot, and have at 'er.

Northman

01-31-2012, 06:58 AM

I would think we would go after a guy like Jason Campbell. He's athletic enough and has a decent arm. You never here anything unsportsman like from the guys in the locker room and I think he might be seeking some motivation against the raiders. I think he would be good as a backup and helping mentor Tebow.

Personally, i think Campbell will still be looking for a starting job so despite how irked he may be at the Raiders i dont think he would want to come here to be a backup. He played really well last year and one could argue when he went down so did the Faid. Not sure where he would get a starting gig but i think that would be his first line of thinking before settling as a backup anywhere.

VonSackemMiller

01-31-2012, 07:42 AM

Cambell sucks

G_Money

01-31-2012, 11:18 AM

Tebow will have to improve drastically IMHO for Elway and Fox to continue into the season with him again.

Tebow, as is, was the QB on a playoff-game-winning, rebuilding team. I would say that he's gonna have to regress for us not to go into the season with him as QB.

That's possible.

But I don't think it'll happen. As I've said before, I think the Broncos should get the rest of the positions fixed while they explore Tim's limits. Either he'll be good enough, or he won't, but there really isn't a scenario where a non-Manning QB comes in here and makes the junk we have on O into a SB-winning team in a year or two.

We need work.

I'm not against drafting a QB at some point. I'd still take Kellen Moore in the 3rd or 4th - he's also left-handed, acceptably mobile, is a far more accurate passer than Tim is at the moment and his limitation (height) can be worked around. He's brilliant as a QB - just short.

I would draft him with the hope that he's Drew Brees, and that he can be Gary Kubiak at worst. If Tim can beat him out, fine. I don't want Moore starting next year anyway. He gives us a potential backup plan if Tebow isn't working out by 2013, or a backup QB if Tim does work out..

But there's a difference between a 4th round QB and a first-rounder. I want my first couple of picks for other need positions. I'm not looking for anyone to replace Tim this year - and I'm also not against preparing for a future without him as our starter.

I'd just prefer to focus our efforts on the rest of the team for 2012. We're ridiculously talent-deficient, and improving the rest of the team will help whomever is under center in 2013.

~G

VonSackemMiller

01-31-2012, 11:22 AM

Your going to take moore who will go in round seven in the third?

Chef Zambini

01-31-2012, 11:54 AM

From what I hear they are going to be giving him a good look over the offseason too.yes change his hair style and add some facial hair, full body wax and a manicure.
a good look for sure.
kellen moore 4th round.
and donovan mcnabb if he still wants to play.

silkamilkamonico

01-31-2012, 12:00 PM

McNabb sucks, is washed up and done.

No to that guy.

G_Money

01-31-2012, 12:09 PM

Your going to take moore who will go in round seven in the third?

I think Moore is gonna impress a lot in the throwing drills at the combine, and somebody's gonna bite on taking the lil guy far earlier than the 7th.

Like I said, I'd take him in the 4th. I don't think he gets out of the 5th no matter what. Andy Dalton was supposed to be a 3rd rounder and he nearly climbed into the first. QBs are interesting prospects, and hoping that the one you like falls to the 7th is a risk.

I'd draft a backup QB (who might soon be my starting QB) in the 4th, sure. He might get as high as late 3rd, or as low as late 5th, but I don't think he's sliding much past that.

But then, I happen to like Moore quite a bit. If he was around to draft in the 7th then the Broncos would be geniuses for letting him fall that far and selecting him.

It only takes one team to think he can be even a Colt-McCoy level player for him to go in the middle rounds. That could always be us.

~G

Northman

01-31-2012, 12:49 PM

I think Moore is gonna impress a lot in the throwing drills at the combine, and somebody's gonna bite on taking the lil guy far earlier than the 7th.

Like I said, I'd take him in the 4th. I don't think he gets out of the 5th no matter what. Andy Dalton was supposed to be a 3rd rounder and he nearly climbed into the first. QBs are interesting prospects, and hoping that the one you like falls to the 7th is a risk.

I'd draft a backup QB (who might soon be my starting QB) in the 4th, sure. He might get as high as late 3rd, or as low as late 5th, but I don't think he's sliding much past that.

But then, I happen to like Moore quite a bit. If he was around to draft in the 7th then the Broncos would be geniuses for letting him fall that far and selecting him.

It only takes one team to think he can be even a Colt-McCoy level player for him to go in the middle rounds. That could always be us.

~G

Considering that Kellen is projected to go between the 4th and 6th rounds i think you are correct that someone will take him long before the 7th.

SOCALORADO.

01-31-2012, 01:17 PM

Kellen Moore is 5'10" and weighs a buck o five. No thanks. He would need an ideal situation like NO to even have a remote shot at playing at all, if ever.
Theres alot of talented QBs in this draft. So take one that has serious potential.
Brock Osweiller or Nick Foles. Both have extreme upsides and huge starter potential.
This will do 2 things.
1.Push TT who actually likes to be challenged, and tends to feed off of it, and get better from the challenge.
2. Give DEN a real, true developmental QB that they can take their time with, and have as a trump card to either trade or use at their discretion.

VonSackemMiller

01-31-2012, 03:39 PM

I think Moore is gonna impress a lot in the throwing drills at the combine, and somebody's gonna bite on taking the lil guy far earlier than the 7th.

Like I said, I'd take him in the 4th. I don't think he gets out of the 5th no matter what. Andy Dalton was supposed to be a 3rd rounder and he nearly climbed into the first. QBs are interesting prospects, and hoping that the one you like falls to the 7th is a risk.

I'd draft a backup QB (who might soon be my starting QB) in the 4th, sure. He might get as high as late 3rd, or as low as late 5th, but I don't think he's sliding much past that.

But then, I happen to like Moore quite a bit. If he was around to draft in the 7th then the Broncos would be geniuses for letting him fall that far and selecting him.

It only takes one team to think he can be even a Colt-McCoy level player for him to go in the middle rounds. That could always be us.

~G
Colt mccoy? Hes so trashy. Cleveland looking to replace him with rg3

turftoad

01-31-2012, 04:10 PM

Maybe we throw a trade offer to NE for Ryan Mallet. I wouldn't mind seeing that.

TXBRONC

01-31-2012, 05:24 PM

Maybe we throw a trade offer to NE for Ryan Mallet. I wouldn't mind seeing that.

We can do better than Mallet besides that Belicheck would probably want more than he's worth.

turftoad

01-31-2012, 06:53 PM

We can do better than Mallet besides that Belicheck would probably want more than he's worth.

Elway has said that he's looking for "the big athlete who can throw the ball from the pocket."

Sounds like Mallett would be close to that guy. But, yes, Belicheat would want more than he's worth.

TXBRONC

01-31-2012, 07:06 PM

Elway has said that he's looking for "the big athlete who can throw the ball from the pocket."

Sounds like Mallett would be close to that guy. But, yes, Belicheat would want more than he's worth.

I saw a little bit of Mallet when he was in college and he does indeed have a big arm. IIRC he also has mobility but anyway I think that in this up coming draft there are some quarterbacks similar to Mallet.

NightTerror218

01-31-2012, 07:11 PM

I saw a little bit of Mallet when he was in college and he does indeed have a big arm. IIRC he also has mobility but anyway I think that in this up coming draft there are some quarterbacks similar to Mallet.

He was had some accuracy issues, has an incredibly huge ego, overly arrogant.

MOtorboat

01-31-2012, 07:14 PM

He was had some accuracy issues, has an incredibly huge ego, overly arrogant.

Don't forget the cocaine.

NightTerror218

01-31-2012, 07:15 PM

Don't forget the cocaine.

cocaine?

I know about off-field issues like public intoxication.

MOtorboat

01-31-2012, 07:17 PM

cocaine?

Rumored drug use (other than just marijuana) at both Michigan and Arkansas.

Ravage!!!

01-31-2012, 07:20 PM

I'm confused with the philosophy of drafting a QB in the 6th round. If you aren't sure on your starter, why take a QB in the 6th round? What does that provide you? You don't draft a 6th round QB with expectations of them becoming starters. Rarely do they make the roster. Is it just so you feel "comfortable" that they aren't going to be competition for the starting spot? I get drafting depth at QB in the 6th if you have a Manning on your roster as the starter. But when we have a Tebow, whats the purpose other than to make people feel better that we aren't using an immediate pick to take Tim's spot?

TXBRONC

01-31-2012, 07:23 PM

He was had some accuracy issues, has an incredibly huge ego, overly arrogant.

Those things are not necessarily a problem. Elway has a big ego and he was at time seen as cocky which to me is the same thing as being arrogant.

Lancane

01-31-2012, 07:28 PM

Tebow, as is, was the QB on a playoff-game-winning, rebuilding team. I would say that he's gonna have to regress for us not to go into the season with him as QB.

That's possible.

It's a fair observation to say that he did regress from his freshman season to his sophomore year. He had a 50.0 completion percentage rating in 2010 which dropped to 46.5 his second season, his yardage completion also dropped and so did his scoring capability in three games in 2010 he had five touchdowns and three interceptions, in 2011 he had only 12 touchdowns and six interceptions. Statistically, he was a better passer under McDaniels' tutelage compared to McCoy, he also ran a pro-spread system for two of those three games, he ran the Erhardt-Perkins for only two in 2011 against Miami and Detroit.

We'll see what happens after he works this off-season with the coaches, but if he hasn't improved, then he remains a liability for this team despite his other qualities.

But I don't think it'll happen. As I've said before, I think the Broncos should get the rest of the positions fixed while they explore Tim's limits. Either he'll be good enough, or he won't, but there really isn't a scenario where a non-Manning QB comes in here and makes the junk we have on O into a SB-winning team in a year or two.

We need work.

As I've shown he's already proved to have regressed in some form, so banking that he won't is a poor man's plateau, there is no safe bet while balancing on a cliff. Yes, the Broncos could focus on every other position while letting Tim explore his limits - but that is piss poor management IMHO. You can strive to secure all the weak spots elsewhere only to fall short and force another change and maybe when it's far too late. That's what I believe happened to Shanahan, he learned too late how important the draft was, too late how important a franchise quarterback was, too late how important a defense is. By the time we find out what the limits are, maybe those who're Broncos and wanted more from this organization: Dawkins, Clady, Bailey, Kuper, Decker and so on will wish for a change. As Bailey said in his interview after the season, he wants to win. He's already upset with the never ending DC carousel. Dawkins believed in McDaniels, he wanted to win a Championship, not to mention that Free Agents look at that as well. Point is, Denver could look to fix everything else, only to be left with having to fix other spots as well. Especially when the quarterback is the single most important position in football.

I'm not against drafting a QB at some point. I'd still take Kellen Moore in the 3rd or 4th - he's also left-handed, acceptably mobile, is a far more accurate passer than Tim is at the moment and his limitation (height) can be worked around. He's brilliant as a QB - just short.

No one should be against drafting a quarterback, if Tim fails and there is a 50/50 chance - if people want to be honest, that he will. Then this team needs to have a backup plan.

I would draft him with the hope that he's Drew Brees, and that he can be Gary Kubiak at worst. If Tim can beat him out, fine. I don't want Moore starting next year anyway. He gives us a potential backup plan if Tebow isn't working out by 2013, or a backup QB if Tim does work out..

But there's a difference between a 4th round QB and a first-rounder. I want my first couple of picks for other need positions. I'm not looking for anyone to replace Tim this year - and I'm also not against preparing for a future without him as our starter.

I don't see Denver drafting another project pick, that is what got this team in this mess. I believe the Broncos have their ideal measurements for the position, we know that Elway has been gaga over certain quarterbacks - especially a few in Cali, if we go off that, then Moore isn't the type he'll target nor will Fox for that matter.

Doesn't really matter where Denver drafts one to be honest, but I'd be surprised as hell if they were below 6-2 and weighed less then 215lbs. and were considered running quarterbacks. I don't expect them to be the starter from day one, heck...I'd be surprised if they started more then the tail end games depending on our record. As it stands now though, Tim will have to show immense strides, I don't see people riding the bandwagon if he looks as horrible as he did for most of the season for another whole season.

I'd just prefer to focus our efforts on the rest of the team for 2012. We're ridiculously talent-deficient, and improving the rest of the team will help whomever is under center in 2013.

As I've said before, I understand...I also know that veterans tend to want to win more then rebuild, that is why Fox made the switch to Tebow, and while the trick-and-pony show worked, I also believe they know it won't work for a whole season. We are deficient of talent, but I'd rather not have our best proven players wanting to change teams to find success because it alludes this team for too long, it makes it hard to build a team that way as well.

We'll see what happens, I'd love for nothing more then for Tebow to come out and look like Steve Young or McNair, and yet there is that 'but' to it, that is a lot to expect from anyone, especially someone that is already showing the odds are not in their favor.

NightTerror218

01-31-2012, 07:34 PM

Those things are not necessarily a problem. Elway has a big ego and he was at time seen as cocky which to me is the same thing as being arrogant.

But he had leadership skills, i never heard them talk about that with mallet.

Chef Zambini

01-31-2012, 11:02 PM

McNabb sucks, is washed up and done.

No to that guy.he is exactly the kind of back-up vet the broncos will be willing and looking to sign, low expectations, good former career, willingness to teach and wear a headset.
Just what tebow needs and wants, yet a guy who can be one snap away from leading the huddle.

Chef Zambini

01-31-2012, 11:10 PM

regardless of the rest of the team, a lousy QB sticks out like a sore thumb.

Chef Zambini

01-31-2012, 11:11 PM

MOtorboat

01-31-2012, 11:31 PM

What happens when the rookie QB or the veteran QB, whoever is brought in, looks vastly superior to Tebow in training camp?

Because...it will happen.

VonSackemMiller

02-01-2012, 02:35 AM

Just draft the big developemental kid from asu osweiler. Let him sit behind tebow for a year and be ready to compete next year.

TXBRONC

02-01-2012, 07:52 AM

But he had leadership skills, i never heard them talk about that with mallet.

Elway wasn't a leader right away. It took a couple of season as the starter before he was seen as a leader. Anyway we do agree about not needing Mallet here not that Denver was even contemplating trading for him.

Toad is right in that Mallet has a nice skill set. But we don't need to risk getting rooked by Belichick when there are quarterbacks in this draft with skill sets that are very comparable to Mallet's.

TXBRONC

02-01-2012, 08:17 AM

What happens when the rookie QB or the veteran QB, whoever is brought in, looks vastly superior to Tebow in training camp?

Because...it will happen.

No there is no guarantee that it will happen.

claymore

02-01-2012, 08:22 AM

What happens when the rookie QB or the veteran QB, whoever is brought in, looks vastly superior to Tebow in training camp?

Because...it will happen.

No there is no guarantee that it will happen.

If Orton :harf: can look better than Tebow, Im sure anyone could look better than him.

VonSackemMiller

02-01-2012, 08:35 AM

If Orton :harf: can look better than Tebow, Im sure anyone could look better than him.

8 year vetreran in his 3rd year of a system will always look better in practice vs a rookie

claymore

02-01-2012, 08:39 AM

8 year vetreran in his 3rd year of a system will always look better in practice vs a rookie

What rookie? Adam Weber? And... Its Kyle Orton. He sucks ****. Terrible QB.

VonSackemMiller

02-01-2012, 08:45 AM

Kyle ortons a outstanding practice player though. Vs no contact he can go 40 of 40 on his throws. And tebow had only played in 3 games. Thats a rookie.

claymore

02-01-2012, 08:47 AM

Kyle ortons a outstanding practice player though. Vs no contact he can go 40 of 40 on his throws. And tebow had only played in 3 games. Thats a rookie.

No he cant. Thats a myth that was made up by pro tebow guys.

Fact is, Orton looks bad in practice too. He just looked so much better than Tebow it was misleading.

I think there were days where webber was the best QB in TC last year.

MOtorboat

02-01-2012, 08:59 AM

SOCALORADO.

02-01-2012, 09:06 AM

Tebow is now a third year player.

Weber is now a second year player. They are not rookies.

What happens if Osweiler comes in (and if I recall correctly, he's got a cannon) and he's zipping passes all over the field, and Tebow is struggling still with short passes and timing?

What happens if Kellen Moore (who is probably the most accurate passer in the draft) comes in and is nailing players in stride, and Tebow is still struggling?

It's an interesting question, because I, as a fan, am not necessarily comfortable with any of those three quarterbacks if that is what happens in camp. Either we have a passer who looks inferior to the other quarterbacks in camp, or we have a rookie third or fourth round project starting...

Irrelevant. TT is the starter, and all the camp throws in the world isnt going to change that. TT is the starter game 1.
Now, if TT begins to really struggle, and becomes a problem for the entire offense, and cant throw accurately, and isnt getting it done over the course of half the season, and the team has a losing record, then EFX will look at their developmental QB who was looking good in camp and consider giving him time only after the vet comes in and also cant get anything done either.

Its a process, and nothing from camp will alter the process.
This is TT's job to lose.

TXBRONC

02-01-2012, 09:26 AM

If Orton :harf: can look better than Tebow, Im sure anyone could look better than him.

How did that work out for Orton in the regular season Clay? I think he was something like 4 wins in his last 18 starts. So much for looking better in camp.

These things don't exist in a vacuum. What you're saying implies to me that Tebow either wont or is incapable of improving. There absolutely no way to know that until actually place or doesn't take place.

claymore

02-01-2012, 09:33 AM

How did that work out for Orton in the regular season Clay? I think it was something like 4 wins in his last 18 starts. So much for looking better in camp.

The winner of a slap fight between 2 homos is still a homo.

claymore

02-01-2012, 09:35 AM

How did that work out for Orton in the regular season Clay? I think he was something like 4 wins in his last 18 starts. So much for looking better in camp.

These things don't exist in a vacuum. What you're saying implies to me that Tebow either wont or is incapable of improving. There absolutely no way to know that until actually place or doesn't take place.

Thats exactly what Im saying. I think he has more things to improve on than EFX has time for.

In 8-10 years of Awesome QB tutelage by the best QB coach in the world, Tebow could become a good QB.

But thats not plausible.

TXBRONC

02-01-2012, 09:43 AM

The winner of a slap fight between 2 homos is still a homo.

I also added to my previous post that it seems to me that you're either assuming wont even attempt to improve or is incapable of it. That's simply something we wont know until either happens or doesn't happen. To me it's unfair to assume he can't improve.

Chef Zambini

02-01-2012, 09:47 AM

Irrelevant. TT is the starter, and all the camp throws in the world isnt going to change that. TT is the starter game 1.
Now, if TT begins to really struggle, and becomes a problem for the entire offense, and cant throw accurately, and isnt getting it done over the course of half the season, and the team has a losing record, then EFX will look at their developmental QB who was looking good in camp and consider giving him time only after the vet comes in and also cant get anything done either.

Its a process, and nothing from camp will alter the process.
This is TT's job to lose.your response is dillusional. If TT loos like a dog in camp, if he cant perform well from the pocket, then whoever it is that is outplaying TT in camp will get the start.
To not believe that indicates your dillusion.

Chef Zambini

02-01-2012, 09:50 AM

claymore

02-01-2012, 09:54 AM

I also added to my previous post that it seems to me that you're either assuming wont even attempt to improve or is incapable of it. That's simply something we wont know until either happens or doesn't happen. To me it's unfair to assume he can't improve.

All we can do is speculate. :D I think he is willing to improve, I just dont think its possible for him to do it within a few years.

I think His greatest gift, his athleticisim, will ultimatley be his undoing. He has relied on it all his life, instead of growing into a good QB.

claymore

02-01-2012, 09:57 AM

i dont believe that TT is capable of morphing into a pocket passer. his skill set and instincts all work against it.
' he has resisted the role of pocket passer his entire life! It would be esier to convert him to judaism !
with Steve young coaching him, he would still struggle / fail.

We would need Bill walsh, Joe Monatna, and more time for Tebow to fall in the same scenario Young did.

Tebow has this next year to look better than mediocre. IMO

TXBRONC

02-01-2012, 10:03 AM

Thats exactly what Im saying. I think he has more things to improve on than EFX has time for.

In 8-10 years of Awesome QB tutelage by the best QB coach in the world, Tebow could become a good QB.

But thats not plausible.

I've only heard that it's his footwork that needs to be concentrated on. What other things does he need to work on. The arm action is what it is.

How is fair assume that it will take 8-10 for him to improve? That is simply impossible to know.

I still don't know if Tebow is the long term solution but I also not going to just write him off. He did something that Orton in eight season still hasn't done and that's winning a playoff game. Orton has never even started a playoff game.

TXBRONC

02-01-2012, 10:06 AM

All we can do is speculate. :D I think he is willing to improve, I just dont think its possible for him to do it within a few years.

I think His greatest gift, his athleticisim, will ultimatley be his undoing. He has relied on it all his life, instead of growing into a good QB.

You know one of these years the two of us are going have to get together to watch the Broncos play and then go over to Jwhizzer's house to give him hard time. :D

claymore

02-01-2012, 10:13 AM

I've only heard that it's his footwork that needs to be concentrated on. What other things does he need to work on. The arm action is what it is.

How is fair assume that it will take 8-10 for him to improve? That is simply impossible to know.

I still don't know if Tebow is the long term solution but I also not going to just write him off. He did something that Orton in eight season still hasn't done and that's winning a playoff game. Orton has never even started a playoff game.The 8-10 year thing is just me talking shit. I think the timeline is greater than Elway plans to give him though. Last I heard, his throwing motion adds 1 second to his delivery. Which when you look at the 2.9 second sack margine makes things difficult if you plan on having a traditional offense.

Ive wrote him off. I have zero hope. The dude doesnt pass a single eyeball test. He looks terrible 9 times out of 10. Im Not trying to be a dik on purpose!!!

You know one of these years the two of us are going have to get together to watch the Broncos play and then go over to Jwhizzer's house to give him hard time. :DHELL yeah, that cranky old bastage! Id love to talk smack!

BroncoNut

02-01-2012, 10:15 AM

is Brady Quinn not on the roster? may have heard that, but I forget so easily

turftoad

02-01-2012, 10:16 AM

You know one of these years the two of us are going have to get together to watch the Broncos play and then go over to Jwhizzer's house to give him hard time. :D

Count me in too. :beer:

BroncoNut

02-01-2012, 10:16 AM

claymore

02-01-2012, 10:16 AM

is Brady Quinn not on the roster? may have heard that, but I forget so easily

Our backup underwear model is currently a FA i think.

BroncoNut

02-01-2012, 10:28 AM

Our backup underwear model is currently a FA i think.

thank you clay. You are a good man

NightTerror218

02-01-2012, 12:11 PM

The 8-10 year thing is just me talking shit. I think the timeline is greater than Elway plans to give him though. Last I heard, his throwing motion adds 1 second to his delivery. Which when you look at the 2.9 second sack margine makes things difficult if you plan on having a traditional offense.

Ive wrote him off. I have zero hope. The dude doesnt pass a single eyeball test. He looks terrible 9 times out of 10. Im Not trying to be a dik on purpose!!!

HELL yeah, that cranky old bastage! Id love to talk smack!

I tihnk this is bunk. complete crap. That was before the combine and the draft. But they showed TT/Tom Brady on a Pats game throwing. They had it side by side. TT was slower the Brady but it was not a second.

SOCALORADO.

02-01-2012, 12:16 PM

your response is dillusional. If TT loos like a dog in camp, if he cant perform well from the pocket, then whoever it is that is outplaying TT in camp will get the start.
To not believe that indicates your dillusion.

I'll take that bet. We'll see whos dillusional when TT is still the starter, yet someone like Weber, who looked better than TT in a number of practices last year, is lighting it up, and still ISNT the starter. :lol:
TT is the starter no matter what next year, come game 1.

catfish

02-01-2012, 12:20 PM

I tihnk this is bunk. complete crap. That was before the combine and the draft. But they showed TT/Tom Brady on a Pats game throwing. They had it side by side. TT was slower the Brady but it was not a second.

http://year2.wordpress.com/2009/04/17/the-speed-of-tebows-release/

An article where they analyzed release time in the NCAA national championship game. Bradfords release at that time was 267 milliseconds faster than Tebow's I don't know if Tebow has gotten faster, but almost certainly hasnt gotten slower

havent found any other article comparing release time yet, will edit if I find

edit: espn sports science segment

w9R7vd78q1A

Mike

02-01-2012, 12:20 PM

Northman

02-01-2012, 12:22 PM

NightTerror218

02-01-2012, 12:25 PM

http://year2.wordpress.com/2009/04/17/the-speed-of-tebows-release/

An article where they analyzed release time in the NCAA national championship game. Bradfords release at that time was 267 milliseconds faster than Tebow's I don't know if Tebow has gotten faster, but almost certainly hasnt gotten slower

havent found any other article comparing release time yet, will edit if I find

That article touches on one topic that he worked on prior to draft. His throwing motion changes speeds. His arm takes different "paths" when throwing. He worked on making it the same motion prior to draft and that would help quicken his release.

There was another article that i read that talked about his arm motion and the different ways it causes him to throw the ball. And it was all about trying to get consistency in his throwing motion.

catfish

02-01-2012, 12:31 PM

That article touches on one topic that he worked on prior to draft. His throwing motion changes speeds. His arm takes different "paths" when throwing. He worked on making it the same motion prior to draft and that would help quicken his release.

There was another article that i read that talked about his arm motion and the different ways it causes him to throw the ball. And it was all about trying to get consistency in his throwing motion.

I added an edit with an espn video if you ar interested

catfish

02-01-2012, 12:32 PM

I highly doubt Teebs will not be the starter going into the regular season next year DESPITE how he plays in practice and preseason. Clearly, with Orton shining in camp and sucking in live game action and TT the opposite i dont think the FO will be so quick to pull TT if he doesnt shine in camp. But, if we start to lose games and he looks like dogshit than you would see a change. But not until then.

I think you are most likely right. Too big a risk that the season starts poorly and the circus starts up again. If Tebow isn't going to be the starter he is going to have to stink it up in public, not in practice

SOCALORADO.

02-01-2012, 12:35 PM

I think you are most likely right. Too big a risk that the season starts poorly and the circus starts up again. If Tebow isn't going to be the starter he is going to have to stink it up in public, not in practice

http://blogs.wabash.edu/lanelines/files/2011/08/Iverson.jpg

claymore

02-01-2012, 12:45 PM

I tihnk this is bunk. complete crap. That was before the combine and the draft. But they showed TT/Tom Brady on a Pats game throwing. They had it side by side. TT was slower the Brady but it was not a second.

It is a fact that Tebow has had multiple throwing motions over the past 3 years. That only adds to my argument that he years behind the power curve.

It could be more than a second if he still has to think about it.

catfish

02-01-2012, 12:47 PM

NightTerror218

02-01-2012, 12:48 PM

It is a fact that Tebow has had multiple throwing motions over the past 3 years. That only adds to my argument that he years behind the power curve.

It could be more than a second if he still has to think about it.

If he is thinking about it, then he is not into his throwing motion. And that is a whole different problem and that goes along with his decisions making and reading defenses. But from what I have read/heard his throwing motion has been tweeked to be more consistent (supposedly fixed prior to draft). But he still has that elongated motion that comes from baseball. he will always have that and it will not change.

claymore

02-01-2012, 12:52 PM

it is .2 seconds
Do you have a link, Id love to read about it.

If he is thinking about it, then he is not into his throwing motion. And that is a whole different problem and that goes along with his decisions making and reading defenses. But from what I have read/heard his throwing motion has been tweeked to be more consistent (supposedly fixed prior to draft). But he still has that elongated motion that comes from baseball. he will always have that and it will not change.

Its more important to me, from what I know that it is the same throwing motion every single time. There is a great Sports Science video on Drew Brees that deals with this. If I could get to youtube, Id look it up.

Ravage!!!

02-01-2012, 01:03 PM

. But from what I have read/heard his throwing motion has been tweeked to be more consistent (supposedly fixed prior to draft). But he still has that elongated motion that comes from baseball. he will always have that and it will not change.

It wasn't "fixed" before teh draft. He simply worked on it ofr a week so that he could get drafted in the first. After that, he went right back to doing what he's always done.

This is the thing. Tebow said after his junior year that he would work on his throwing motion because he wanted to be an NFL QB, and didn't like when the critics were saying he couldn't be because of the way he threw the ball. But he didn't work on it and didn't change it. Then he works on it for a week so that eh looks good before the draft...and its back to the same things. It was never (even supposedly) fixed.

But if he's throwing like a baseball player... why? When was the last time he played baseball.... HS? I honestly think that TEbow doesn't want to change his throwing motion, and wants to prove everyone wrong and do it his way.

catfish

02-01-2012, 01:03 PM

Do you have a link, Id love to read about it.

Its more important to me, from what I know that it is the same throwing motion every single time. There is a great Sports Science video on Drew Brees that deals with this. If I could get to youtube, Id look it up.

post# 74 has a youtube espn sports science on Tebows release. it is .6 second, average nfl release is .4 seconds

claymore

02-01-2012, 01:31 PM

post# 74 has a youtube espn sports science on Tebows release. it is .6 second, average nfl release is .4 seconds

I will have to watch it when I get home.

catfish

02-01-2012, 01:43 PM

I will have to watch it when I get home.

understood, in summary. In college his release speed was .6 seconds, after they retooled his throwing motion prior to the draft on pro day he decreased his release time by 10%, under pressure in the NFL he has reverted back to .6 seconds...then it goes into muscle memory blah blah blah to explain likely reasons why.

the argument is how damaging those .2 seconds are, personally I think footwork is more important. I don't recall a large number of fumbles due to the ball getting knocked out while he was passing. Most of them were running I think, my memory sucks.

claymore

02-01-2012, 02:02 PM

understood, in summary. In college his release speed was .6 seconds, after they retooled his throwing motion prior to the draft on pro day he decreased his release time by 10%, under pressure in the NFL he has reverted back to .6 seconds...then it goes into muscle memory blah blah blah to explain likely reasons why.

the argument is how damaging those .2 seconds are, personally I think footwork is more important. I don't recall a large number of fumbles due to the ball getting knocked out while he was passing. Most of them were running I think, my memory sucks.

My memory sucks too... :mad:

Personally, I think messing with his throwing motion will only hurt him. I would like to see crisper passes though.

I think the only thing that can be done for him is footwork and mental stuff with reading defenses and knowing hot recievers etc,,,

catfish

02-01-2012, 02:09 PM

My memory sucks too... :mad:

Personally, I think messing with his throwing motion will only hurt him. I would like to see crisper passes though.

I think the only thing that can be done for him is footwork and mental stuff with reading defenses and knowing hot recievers etc,,,

100% agree, it appears when he steps into the throw correctly he can put a decent spiral on the ball, absolutely try to improve overall, but if I chose 1 thing it is footwork, followed by reading a D and hitting checkdowns if the long ball isn't there.

I think he could easily boost his comp% and YPA by 5-7% and 1-1.5 yards just by hitting the checkdown on 1st and second down when appropriate. Obviously on 3rd if you need the yardage you need the yardage, but 2nd and 3 because you find the RB out in the flat is better than 2nd and 10 because you miss a 30 yard bomb to a guy who was covered or 2nd and 15 because you got sacked waiting for a guy to get open

claymore

02-01-2012, 02:17 PM

100% agree, it appears when he steps into the throw correctly he can put a decent spiral on the ball, absolutely try to improve overall, but if I chose 1 thing it is footwork, followed by reading a D and hitting checkdowns if the long ball isn't there.

I think he could easily boost his comp% and YPA by 5-7% and 1-1.5 yards just by hitting the checkdown on 1st and second down when appropriate. Obviously on 3rd if you need the yardage you need the yardage, but 2nd and 3 because you find the RB out in the flat is better than 2nd and 10 because you miss a 30 yard bomb to a guy who was covered or 2nd and 15 because you got sacked waiting for a guy to get open

This is kind of a good article. It goes against what I say (He will never get better :D). But it also reinforces what I believe (he needs to throw the same way, every time to improve accuracy).

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2012/01/14/tim_tebows_bad_mechanics_can_be_corrected/

catfish

02-01-2012, 02:22 PM

This is kind of a good article. It goes against what I say (He will never get better :D). But it also reinforces what I believe (he needs to throw the same way, every time to improve accuracy).

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2012/01/14/tim_tebows_bad_mechanics_can_be_corrected/

good article, also pretty much in-line with what Brady's QB coach had to say.

Basically there are lots of NFL QB's with quirky throwing mechanics, very few if any with horrible footwork. Hopefully they can get it fixed in the offseason, becasue there will be no excuse next year.

Big props by the way for posting an article that runs counter to your position. I think sometimes people(myself included) get too hung up on being right and filter out info to the contrary.

claymore

02-01-2012, 02:40 PM

good article, also pretty much in-line with what Brady's QB coach had to say.

Basically there are lots of NFL QB's with quirky throwing mechanics, very few if any with horrible footwork. Hopefully they can get it fixed in the offseason, becasue there will be no excuse next year.

Big props by the way for posting an article that runs counter to your position. I think sometimes people(myself included) get too hung up on being right and filter out info to the contrary.

I want to be wrong a 100%. I love Tebow.

catfish

02-01-2012, 02:50 PM

I want to be wrong a 100%. I love Tebow.

I understand, I hope he beats the odds too, though I know it is far from a sure thing. I just happen to be an eternal optimist :)

claymore

02-01-2012, 02:56 PM

I understand, I hope he beats the odds too, though I know it is far from a sure thing. I just happen to be an eternal optimist :)

I think we Bonded today Cat.

catfish

02-01-2012, 03:02 PM

I think we Bonded today Cat.

lol, campfire Kumbaya etc etc:D

NightTerror218

02-01-2012, 04:38 PM

lol, campfire Kumbaya etc etc:D

He doesnt let people get very close

Jsteve01

02-01-2012, 05:05 PM

I think we Bonded today Cat.

run for this hills cat clay is notoriously fickle

catfish

02-01-2012, 05:07 PM

He doesnt let people get very close

Clay is good people

NightTerror218

02-01-2012, 05:20 PM

Clay is good people

was......he is actually a zombie :dead:

wish there was a zombie smile

TXBRONC

02-01-2012, 05:41 PM

was......he is actually a zombie :dead:

wish there was a zombie smile

He's seeing a doctor about that. He wasn't going to but when his peter rotted off so he got scared.

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tomjonesrocks

02-01-2012, 07:35 PM

Cut Moreno!

JPPT1974

02-01-2012, 07:48 PM

Quinn will be either released or traded. As they may sign an experience QB that will make Tebow work a little harder. On being not just a running QB but a passing QB efficiently. That is what Elway probably wants from Tim.

MOtorboat

02-01-2012, 07:50 PM

Quinn is a free agent. His contract ends on March 13.

Denver Native (Carol)

02-01-2012, 08:22 PM

Sure to upset some Tebowites...LOL...Hopefully Elway brings in someone to compete with every player on the team. Nobodies job should be secure.

"Anybody who comes in at any position is going to think they have a chance to compete," Elway said. "Any free agent or anybody that comes in here when we start training camp is going to be competing for jobs.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_19849637

Chef Zambini

02-02-2012, 01:33 AM

wayninja

02-02-2012, 10:22 AM

there should not have been any excuses THIS year.
Tebow regressed. football was a low priority for timmy in the off season.

I agree. Tebow should publicly apologize for being present when we won all those games.

Fullback32

02-02-2012, 10:47 AM

Whatever they do they need to ensure they get a backup who can run this offense if they keep it in its present form. A pure pocket passer would require a whole diifferent scheme. Can you imagine the cluster F it would be should Tebow go down somewhere in third quarter with the game on the line and they have to shift the game plan totally to accomodate a pocket passer?

claymore

02-02-2012, 10:51 AM

Whatever they dom they need to ensure they get a backup who can run this offense if they keep it in its present form. A pure pocket passer would require a whole diifferent scheme. Can you imagine the cluster F it would be should Tebow go down somewhere in third quarter with the game on the line and they have to shift the game plan totally to accomodate a pocket passer?

This is the reason I dont want to waste a draft pick on another project QB. We need to know we have our starter first.

If Tebow goes down, throw in whatever scrub vet/Webber.

catfish

02-02-2012, 10:57 AM

This is the reason I dont want to waste a draft pick on another project QB. We need to know we have our starter first.

If Tebow goes down, throw in whatever scrub vet/Webber.

I agree, if you pick a guy this year and Tebow inproves you wasted a pick that was needed elsewhere. If Tebow doesn't improve you have at best a project guy and will most likely pick an early first round QB next year as a franchise hopefull, hence you wasted the pick. There is really no situation where a qb pick this year isn't a wasted pick. Unless one of the top guys falls a lot on draft day.

Use all your picks to fill holes in other spots, If Tebow sucks next year, bring in another guy next year from the resultant high draft pick and you have Tebow as a back up as the rookie develops

TXBRONC

02-02-2012, 11:09 AM

I agree. Tebow should publicly apologize for being present when we won all those games.

He is such a fraud. :tsk: :tsk:

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Lancane

02-02-2012, 11:15 AM

I agree. Tebow should publicly apologize for being present when we won all those games.

Tebow doesn't have to apologize, he needs to change and even he knows this. Quit being so quick to defend him Nin, because he doesn't need that either. Criticism can be a good thing for football players, and trust me he needs it the most. Did he help us win more then lose? Yes. Is he the key factor in those wins? Yes. Is it due to his character, drive and athletic ability more then his quarterbacking skills? Yes. Look Nin, Devin Hester is an athletic freak as well, but he is rather mediocre as a receiver, Chicago based too much of their offense on him at times and failed, that will be the same for Tebow unless he conforms to NFL, he knows this...Elway knows this as does Fox and about every other analyst out there, that's why so many are saying they could change Tebow - because everyone knows he needs to or he'll fail and there is no 'buts'.

As I've stated before, there are things about Tebow I absolutely love, such as his competitive spirit, drive to succeed, his attitude and outlook, even his unrelenting character. But, I also realize that, that is not enough and the sooner those being labelled apologists will be forced to understand that. As a number of others have alluded to, if his mechanics change and improve then his 46.5 completion percentage which is horrific for the modern NFL, should let's say improve to about average 55.0 or higher, then we win two or three more games and that is the difference. On whether or not he can conform that's the real debate...many don't believe he can. But he can not stay the same, and it's fair to say that he's not a quarterback, at least yet. And that's what Denver will need in order to win. The offense we ran hid his flaws because it played to his strengths and covers for his weakness...but it's a trick-pony offense and just like the Wildcat it's a gimmick it won't work long-term.

Lancane

02-02-2012, 11:34 AM

I agree, if you pick a guy this year and Tebow inproves you wasted a pick that was needed elsewhere. If Tebow doesn't improve you have at best a project guy and will most likely pick an early first round QB next year as a franchise hopefull, hence you wasted the pick. There is really no situation where a qb pick this year isn't a wasted pick. Unless one of the top guys falls a lot on draft day.

Use all your picks to fill holes in other spots, If Tebow sucks next year, bring in another guy next year from the resultant high draft pick and you have Tebow as a back up as the rookie develops

Unless my friend they're already planning to run a more NFL proven, pro-style offense - which is quite possible. I don't believe we'll see the option except now and then, I think the heads know it's flawed and if McCoy is of any worth, then he'll have Tebow running a pro-style offense more efficiently then ever, if we're still having to run the option offense at the same rate, then we know Tebow isn't improving. So, with that said...Denver really could add a more traditional quarterback to the roster and it should be fine, again depending on the true quality of this staff. And IMHO, there really is no excuse for a wasted draft pick, if your drafting someone it's because that athlete in some fashion will help better the team, doesn't matter if it's as a starter or backup.

SOCALORADO.

02-02-2012, 11:50 AM

I agree, if you pick a guy this year and Tebow inproves you wasted a pick that was needed elsewhere. If Tebow doesn't improve you have at best a project guy and will most likely pick an early first round QB next year as a franchise hopefull, hence you wasted the pick. There is really no situation where a qb pick this year isn't a wasted pick. Unless one of the top guys falls a lot on draft day.

Use all your picks to fill holes in other spots, If Tebow sucks next year, bring in another guy next year from the resultant high draft pick and you have Tebow as a back up as the rookie develops

No, its not a wasted pick.
Look what PHIL got for Kolb.
Look what NE got for Cassell.
A team like MIA is going to give up a nice pick(s) for Flynn.

DEN doesnt have the luxury of not taking a developmental QB at this point.
DEN is in the same boat as PHIL was when they drafted Kolb in the 2nd.
They were just not completely sold on McNabbs health, and if he was going to be able to ever be the QB they needed him to be, so they enacted a contingency plan to offset the chances that he might not be able to play at the level they needed him to be at.
It doesnt matter that DEN has other needs. Those postions are not as important to a NFL team as QB. No position is.
QB is the most important position not just in the NFL but in all of sports.
So taking a QB in the bottom of the 2nd, top of the 3rd is part of keeping your team in a position to win. It sucks, because DEN does in fact have other areas of concern, but they just cannot discount the QB position at this point. It must be solidified.
NE took Mallet in the 3rd round for a real good reason.
Yet they have Tom Brady.

wayninja

02-02-2012, 12:25 PM

Tebow doesn't have to apologize, he needs to change and even he knows this. Quit being so quick to defend him Nin, because he doesn't need that either.

I'm not defending him, but Zam is treating this season like a wake. Sorry, but that's simply ridiculous. It's patently retarded to say stuff like 'there should not have been excuses this year'. Excuses for what, exactly? Sorry we couldn't have stayed at the bottom of the AFCW?

Criticism can be a good thing for football players, and trust me he needs it the most. Did he help us win more then lose? Yes. Is he the key factor in those wins? Yes. Is it due to his character, drive and athletic ability more then his quarterbacking skills? Yes. Look Nin, Devin Hester is an athletic freak as well, but he is rather mediocre as a receiver, Chicago based too much of their offense on him at times and failed, that will be the same for Tebow unless he conforms to NFL, he knows this...Elway knows this as does Fox and about every other analyst out there, that's why so many are saying they could change Tebow - because everyone knows he needs to or he'll fail and there is no 'buts'.

I'm not arguing. Tebow needs to improve. But the criticism saying he needs to improve is coming from folks who were saying 12 months ago that he's not good enough to even be on the field and 24 months ago that he didn't belong at the draft. It becomes irritating and franky disingenuous at some point.

As I've stated before, there are things about Tebow I absolutely love, such as his competitive spirit, drive to succeed, his attitude and outlook, even his unrelenting character. But, I also realize that, that is not enough and the sooner those being labelled apologists will be forced to understand that. As a number of others have alluded to, if his mechanics change and improve then his 46.5 completion percentage which is horrific for the modern NFL, should let's say improve to about average 55.0 or higher, then we win two or three more games and that is the difference. On whether or not he can conform that's the real debate...many don't believe he can. But he can not stay the same, and it's fair to say that he's not a quarterback, at least yet. And that's what Denver will need in order to win. The offense we ran hid his flaws because it played to his strengths and covers for his weakness...but it's a trick-pony offense and just like the Wildcat it's a gimmick it won't work long-term.

I don't know if I agree with you about attitude, outlook and work ethic not being enough. I think it is enough. It may not be as fast as some people would like, but determination is a good chunk of success. If you want to go on ad nasaeum about his mechanics, footwork, blah blah, I won't stop you, but to try to angle those things in terms of what was accomplished this season is just dumb. The Pittsburg game proved, at least to me, that completion percentage is ridiculously vacuous. Who cares how many passes were caugh as long as several of those were for touchdowns? He had the highest number of yards against the steelers of any team the entire year and probably with the lowest completion %. If that doesn't get people to re-evaluate what that number really means, then you are arguing for the sake of argumentation. How much wild cat trickery did we use in that game, btw?

Sure, he has work to do. Breaking news, I guess. The bottom line is that we kicked ass this season. Way more so than our talent level suggested no matter who was under center. Tebow helped with that, like it or not. He's clearly not perfect and we could have easily lost as many of those games as we won, but we didn't. So, evaluate and speculate away, but the only 'excuses' that should be made should be from opposing teams about why we did so well.

Fullback32

02-02-2012, 01:23 PM

McFlabb is done. Can't see the Broncos taking him. He should just stay home and eat his soup with his mom.

claymore

02-02-2012, 01:32 PM

I'm not defending him, but Zam is treating this season like a wake. Sorry, but that's simply ridiculous. It's patently retarded to say stuff like 'there should not have been excuses this year'. Excuses for what, exactly? Sorry we couldn't have stayed at the bottom of the AFCW?

I'm not arguing. Tebow needs to improve. But the criticism saying he needs to improve is coming from folks who were saying 12 months ago that he's not good enough to even be on the field and 24 months ago that he didn't belong at the draft. It becomes irritating and franky disingenuous at some point.

I don't know if I agree with you about attitude, outlook and work ethic not being enough. I think it is enough. It may not be as fast as some people would like, but determination is a good chunk of success. If you want to go on ad nasaeum about his mechanics, footwork, blah blah, I won't stop you, but to try to angle those things in terms of what was accomplished this season is just dumb. The Pittsburg game proved, at least to me, that completion percentage is ridiculously vacuous. Who cares how many passes were caugh as long as several of those were for touchdowns? He had the highest number of yards against the steelers of any team the entire year and probably with the lowest completion %. If that doesn't get people to re-evaluate what that number really means, then you are arguing for the sake of argumentation. How much wild cat trickery did we use in that game, btw?

Sure, he has work to do. Breaking news, I guess. The bottom line is that we kicked ass this season. Way more so than our talent level suggested no matter who was under center. Tebow helped with that, like it or not. He's clearly not perfect and we could have easily lost as many of those games as we won, but we didn't. So, evaluate and speculate away, but the only 'excuses' that should be made should be from opposing teams about why we did so well.If you think the Pitt game is anywhere close to being the norm you will be let down.

We did not kick ass this year. We squeeked out some suprising wins.

TXBRONC

02-02-2012, 01:43 PM

I think the majority fans who have supportive of Tebow recognize he needs to improve. There is no guarantee that Tebow can improve nor is there any guarantee that he can't. The fact that Tebow has good work ethic can go along way to realizing he full potential. Penciling him in as a long term solution and writing him off are equally wrong imho.

wayninja

02-02-2012, 01:47 PM

If you think the Pitt game is anywhere close to being the norm you will be let down.

We did not kick ass this year. We squeeked out some suprising wins.

What about the Raiders game? That's probably not the norm either. The Vikings game?

Who's making excuses now?

slim

02-02-2012, 01:49 PM

If you think the Pitt game is anywhere close to being the norm you will be let down.

We did not kick ass this year. We squeeked out some suprising wins.

We won the division and a playoff game with an undertalented team and a young, developmental QB.

What exactly would make you guys happy?

wayninja

02-02-2012, 01:50 PM

We won the division and a playoff game with an undertalented team and a young, developmental QB.

What exactly would make you guys happy?

Passes that look pretty.

NightTerror218

02-02-2012, 01:51 PM

No, its not a wasted pick.
Look what PHIL got for Kolb.
Look what NE got for Cassell.
A team like MIA is going to give up a nice pick(s) for Flynn.

DEN doesnt have the luxury of not taking a developmental QB at this point.
DEN is in the same boat as PHIL was when they drafted Kolb in the 2nd.
They were just not completely sold on McNabbs health, and if he was going to be able to ever be the QB they needed him to be, so they enacted a contingency plan to offset the chances that he might not be able to play at the level they needed him to be at.
It doesnt matter that DEN has other needs. Those postions are not as important to a NFL team as QB. No position is.
QB is the most important position not just in the NFL but in all of sports.
So taking a QB in the bottom of the 2nd, top of the 3rd is part of keeping your team in a position to win. It sucks, because DEN does in fact have other areas of concern, but they just cannot discount the QB position at this point. It must be solidified.
NE took Mallet in the 3rd round for a real good reason.
Yet they have Tom Brady.

You can not take a QB when you have too many holes. Eagles have had very good D and a good players on offense. NE has a great team. Good teams do pick QBs in mid rounds. Bad teams can not waste a picks when they have so many holes unless they KNOW 100% that they need a QB. How often do you see Bengals, Browns, TB, Miami, and St. Luis draft QBs? Not very often. They all drafted 1 within the last couple years. ONLY 1, they did not draft multiple just so they might have a future guy to trade for picks. They have riden out a QB for several years then drafted a new one when NEEDED.

TXBRONC

02-02-2012, 02:02 PM

If you think the Pitt game is anywhere close to being the norm you will be let down.

We did not kick ass this year. We squeaked out some surprising wins.

Clay in pro football it's impossible to win seven games that are flukes. The League is way to competitive for that.

slim

02-02-2012, 02:07 PM

Clay in pro football it's impossible to win seven games that are flukes. The League is way to competitive for that.

No, every positive thing that happened last year was luck....there is no other explanation.

slim

02-02-2012, 02:08 PM

Passes that look pretty.

It is much better to look good and lose. No doubt.

TXBRONC

02-02-2012, 02:26 PM

You can not take a QB when you have too many holes. Eagles have had very good D and a good players on offense. NE has a great team. Good teams do pick QBs in mid rounds. Bad teams can not waste a picks when they have so many holes unless they KNOW 100% that they need a QB. How often do you see Bengals, Browns, TB, Miami, and St. Luis draft QBs? Not very often. They all drafted 1 within the last couple years. ONLY 1, they did not draft multiple just so they might have a future guy to trade for picks. They have riden out a QB for several years then drafted a new one when NEEDED.

If the philosophy is take the best player available regardless of position then taking quarterback is always a possibility. Even though Tebow is the starter going into camp I wont be surprised if take a quarterback at some point. I could easily see Denver going into camp with four quarterbacks. Tebow (the presumed starter), a veteran (as the presumed) back up and Weber and a rookie. The dynamic of that could depend on where that rookie is drafted.

wayninja

02-02-2012, 02:35 PM

No, every positive thing that happened last year was luck....there is no other explanation.

Sure there is. The defense did it. Or the coaching. And let's not forget Prater.

Think everything's covered now.

Lancane

02-02-2012, 02:50 PM

We won the division and a playoff game with an undertalented team and a young, developmental QB.

What exactly would make you guys happy?

We won the division due to San Diego beating out Oakland, we did not win the division outright.

We do lack some talent in specific areas, then again Denver had how many Pro-Bowl players? Six, one shy of New England's seven and two of Baltimore's eight. Granted, I think the Pro-Bowl has become a popularity contest, but there is still talent there. As to the second part of your statement, your dead on..."Young developmental quarterback", whom I might add seems to have regressed under McCoy, had some of the worst passing stats for any starting quarterback within the same time frame and is still developmental or 'Raw'. Will that be the excuse once again if Denver is forced to use an option based offense because the mechanics of the position he lacks?

I get it, the kid is refreshing...he's got a great personality and is a bigger then life character, that doesn't mean he's a NFL capable quarterback. Joe Biden is a funny fellow and great family man, doesn't mean that he's ideal to be the President of this country. Football is not a popularity contest, it's an F'n sport that succeeds or fails on the talents of the individual athletes and the quality of the coaches...and that's the bottom line. I hope Tebow conforms and becomes a legendary NFL quarterback, that doesn't mean it will happen though and I know the chances are slimmer in his case.

Lancane

02-02-2012, 02:56 PM

Clay in pro football it's impossible to win seven games that are flukes. The League is way to competitive for that.

Tell that to Miami who's Wildcat offense took the league by storm only to have losing seasons since teams figured the gimmicky offense out. I won't say the games are flukes, but there is a gimmick factor that should be calculated into this conversation.

Lancane

02-02-2012, 03:05 PM

It is much better to look good and lose. No doubt.

We had a sub par record at 8-8 and were lucky that San Diego showed up in Oakland, otherwise we'd have nothing to show for the so-called greatness of the season. If that's winning to you Slim, then more power to you. I'd prefer to be that team that no one wants to face because we're always a threat to win the game not to mention the division and to go deep in the playoffs - and we're not even close to that yet. I'd trade Tebow for anyone of the other quarterbacks that were in the playoffs, even Flacco or Smith, and until he can prove that he can even be a middle of the road quarterback, then many will continue to have that same said mentality about it.

wayninja

02-02-2012, 03:09 PM

We won the division due to San Diego beating out Oakland, we did not win the division outright.

Bullshit. We won it outright. It didn't come down to a cointoss. The order of the wins is irrelevant. We won enough to win the division outright even if it came down to the last game.

I get it, the kid is refreshing...he's got a great personality and is a bigger then life character, that doesn't mean he's a NFL capable quarterback. Joe Biden is a funny fellow and great family man, doesn't mean that he's ideal to be the President of this country. Football is not a popularity contest, it's an F'n sport that succeeds or fails on the talents of the individual athletes and the quality of the coaches...and that's the bottom line. I hope Tebow conforms and becomes a legendary NFL quarterback, that doesn't mean it will happen though and I know the chances are slimmer in his case.

The problem is that we are already talking about a 16 game QB with a winning record as a failed experiment. That's just a sorta silly thing to do. It reeks of confirmation bias.

wayninja

02-02-2012, 03:14 PM

Tell that to Miami who's Wildcat offense took the league by storm only to have losing seasons since teams figured the gimmicky offense out. I won't say the games are flukes, but there is a gimmick factor that should be calculated into this conversation.

Why does everyone keep comparing our offense to the Wilcat. Can someone explain this to me?

I can sorta agree on the 'gimmick' part, although 'dumbed-down' would probably be a better word choice. But wildcat? Huh?

Also, didn't miami have 2 of the best running backs in the league running that offense?

Any 1-dimensional offense is going to get solved. You can call it the read-option or the wildcat or the single wing or whatever you want. Being predictable or inconsistent is what kills, not the formation.

slim

02-02-2012, 03:26 PM

We won the division due to San Diego beating out Oakland, we did not win the division outright.

Nonsense. We won the division.

We do lack some talent in specific areas, then again Denver had how many Pro-Bowl players? Six, one shy of New England's seven and two of Baltimore's eight. Granted, I think the Pro-Bowl has become a popularity contest, but there is still talent there. As to the second part of your statement, your dead on..."Young developmental quarterback", whom I might add seems to have regressed under McCoy, had some of the worst passing stats for any starting quarterback within the same time frame and is still developmental or 'Raw'. Will that be the excuse once again if Denver is forced to use an option based offense because the mechanics of the position he lacks?

The same talent that had managed to go 5-16 in the 21 games preceding. It has been widely reported and discussed that McDaniels left the Denver roster largely devoid of talent.

I get it, the kid is refreshing...he's got a great personality and is a bigger then life character, that doesn't mean he's a NFL capable quarterback. Joe Biden is a funny fellow and great family man, doesn't mean that he's ideal to be the President of this country. Football is not a popularity contest, it's an F'n sport that succeeds or fails on the talents of the individual athletes and the quality of the coaches...and that's the bottom line. I hope Tebow conforms and becomes a legendary NFL quarterback, that doesn't mean it will happen though and I know the chances are slimmer in his case.

The kid managed to turn the season around despite all of his faults and the lack of talent around him.

BTW, Joe Biden is an assclown.

Lancane

02-02-2012, 03:28 PM

Why does everyone keep comparing our offense to the Wilcat. Can someone explain this to me?

I can sorta agree on the 'gimmick' part, although 'dumbed-down' would probably be a better word choice. But wildcat? Huh?

Also, didn't miami have 2 of the best running backs in the league running that offense?

Any 1-dimensional offense is going to get solved. You can call it the read-option or the wildcat or the single wing or whatever you want. Being predictable or inconsistent is what kills, not the formation.

Because Nin, both offenses were created to be confusing gimmicks, I'd suggest 'dumbed-down' to a certain extent. Both offenses were created to utilize the quarterbacks differently then the aerial styles such as the Air-Erhardt, West Coast, Pistol or even the Air-Coryell, even the more traditional collegiate spread offenses are more pass orientated then either of those two offenses, another that fits into that category would be the Veer. Such offenses use deceptive formations and play calling to succeed then on the premise of talent at the quarterback position.

Being one dimension regarding play calling and formation both are fatal to the development and eventual success of an offense. That's why more quarterbacks succeed at this level conforming to a pro-style then when the coaches conform to that of the players. I'm not against using the option, veer or wildcat as long as it's sparingly - Tebow needs to conform, and if you truly believe in Tim, then he should be able to do it...after all, McNair and Vick had to as well.

wayninja

02-02-2012, 03:34 PM

Because Nin, both offenses were created to be confusing gimmicks, I'd suggest 'dumbed-down' to a certain extent. Both offenses were created to utilize the quarterbacks differently then the aerial styles such as the Air-Erhardt, West Coast, Pistol or even the Air-Coryell, even the more traditional collegiate spread offenses are more pass orientated then either of those two offenses, another that fits into that category would be the Veer. Such offenses use deceptive formations and play calling to succeed then on the premise of talent at the quarterback position.

Our offense was not created to be a confusing gimmick. I was created to be workable in the wake of throwing a raw QB into a starting position when he clearly wasn't ready for it. It wasn't about deception, it was about efficiency.

The wildcat relied more heavily on the RB position than it did the QB position.

There are more differences than similarities, really.

Being one dimension regarding play calling and formation both are fatal to the development and eventual success of an offense. That's why more quarterbacks succeed at this level conforming to a pro-style then when the coaches conform to that of the players. I'm not against using the option, veer or wildcat as long as it's sparingly - Tebow needs to conform, and if you truly believe in Tim, then he should be able to do it...after all, McNair and Vick had to as well.

I do believe he should be able to do it. I was never in favor of running this offense, it made no sense given the premise that we were supposedly throwing the season away in favor of 'seeing what we have'. If we didn't really care about the season, why tailor the offense in this way? It should have been sink or swim no matter how painful. McCoy and Fox wanted to win more than they truly wanted to develop Tebow or see what they had in him.

I don't blame them for that, I like winning too, but let's not pretend like they had no choice.

Lancane

02-02-2012, 03:35 PM

Bullshit. We won it outright. It didn't come down to a cointoss. The order of the wins is irrelevant. We won enough to win the division outright even if it came down to the last game.

The problem is that we are already talking about a 16 game QB with a winning record as a failed experiment. That's just a sorta silly thing to do. It reeks of confirmation bias.

We did not win the division outright, had we not lost our last three games we'd have won the Division with no contest, hell...even the very last game would have won it. No, we won because San Diego decided to show up and Oakland didn't, had Oakland won, we'd have not won the division. Winning the division outright was not in our hands, we choked.

It's not bias, for all the hate Tim receives that I find atrocious and uncalled for, there are certain issues that I will not overlook simply because we were a .500 team when we expected to be well below that point. The issue is that I, unlike others will not accept mediocrity from the most key position on the team. I truly hope that he proves everyone wrong and becomes a great NFL quarterback, but as he is now? He's not even close.

NightTerror218

02-02-2012, 03:38 PM

Nonsense. We won the division.

The same talent that had managed to go 5-16 in the 21 games preceding. It has been widely reported and discussed that McDaniels left the Denver roster largely devoid of talent.

The kid managed to turn the season around despite all of his faults and the lack of talent around him.

BTW, Joe Biden is an assclown.

Actually Mcgahee and Von are new :) Clady, Bailey, Dawkins and Doomer are returning Pro Bowlers who did not do well last year.

TXBRONC

02-02-2012, 03:38 PM

Tell that to Miami who's Wildcat offense took the league by storm only to have losing seasons since teams figured the gimmicky offense out. I won't say the games are flukes, but there is a gimmick factor that should be calculated into this conversation.

I don't know how to calculate that into the equation because it wasn't nearly as much as Miami used the Wildcat. From what Elway and Fox have both said I don't think they want to be staple of the offense. Even so the seven wins that we accumulated with Tebow at quarterback we legitimate wins.

Lancane

02-02-2012, 03:47 PM

Our offense was not created to be a confusing gimmick. I was created to be workable in the wake of throwing a raw QB into a starting position when he clearly wasn't ready for it. It wasn't about deception, it was about efficiency.

The wildcat relied more heavily on the RB position than it did the QB position.

There are more differences than similarities, really.

I do believe he should be able to do it. I was never in favor of running this offense, it made no sense given the premise that we were supposedly throwing the season away in favor of 'seeing what we have'. If we didn't really care about the season, why tailor the offense in this way? It should have been sink or swim no matter how painful. McCoy and Fox wanted to win more than they truly wanted to develop Tebow or see what they had in him.

I don't blame them for that, I like winning too, but let's not pretend like they had no choice.

Actually, both offenses - just like the veer depend on deceptive formations and play calling, the option is a little more explosive because it relies on quick decision making from the quarterback position. Otherwise all three offenses rely on running quarterbacks as well as multi-dimensional running backs. The option, veer and wildcat to not utilize the passing offense the same way as pro-style and especially aerial offenses.

As to the rest, I completely agree...we should have not used the option, or did so sparingly while Tim strived to conform to the pro-style. IMHO, I think it will hurt his development, and I know Tim can run the Air-Erhardt, we saw it last year against Houston and Oakland, so why not use a similar offense? Instead John Fox wanted to win, but what if they decide to return to the option instead? Three years from now, Fox will be gone and a whole new regime will come in and Tebow, no matter his fan base will likely be out. That's why I'm hoping that McCoy is going to force Tim to conform and to play in a pro-style offense and I hope he succeeds...however, I know there is a chance, greater then a little bit that he'll fail, and Denver has to be prepared in case of that IMHO.

Lancane

02-02-2012, 03:52 PM

I don't know how to calculate that into the equation because it wasn't nearly as much as Miami used the Wildcat. From what Elway and Fox have both said I don't think they want to be staple of the offense. Even so the seven wins that we accumulated with Tebow at quarterback we legitimate wins.

I'm not disputing the wins, just suggesting that they came due to unorthodox offensive football that is in itself gimmicky, and such offenses have proven time and time again to fail after the initial surprise of the offense is figured out.

We can only hope that they don't want that to be the staple of the offense, a lot of that could be determined by Tebow's development in the off-season, as well as by the additions to the roster.

wayninja

02-02-2012, 03:55 PM

We did not win the division outright, had we not lost our last three games we'd have won the Division with no contest, hell...even the very last game would have won it. No, we won because San Diego decided to show up and Oakland didn't, had Oakland won, we'd have not won the division. Winning the division outright was not in our hands, we choked.

The same could be said for 3 of the first 4 games. So? I'll say it again. The order in which games are won is irrelevant. You either win enough or you dont. We did. There's 50,000 permutations of what could of happened and what if scenarios, the bottom line is that none of those other scenarios actually happened. The real problem here is that you don't like that we didn't seal the deal when we had a chance. That's a fair point, but it's also moot.

It's not bias, for all the hate Tim receives that I find atrocious and uncalled for, there are certain issues that I will not overlook simply because we were a .500 team when we expected to be well below that point. The issue is that I, unlike others will not accept mediocrity from the most key position on the team. I truly hope that he proves everyone wrong and becomes a great NFL quarterback, but as he is now? He's not even close.

Let's call an apple an apple. Under Tebow we improved from a (let's be generous and exclude the first SD game and say) .250 team to a .500 team.

I'm not expecting you to be happy at this point about Tebow as long term, proven QB, but it's hard not to be happy about the turnaround, right?

You called me out on this when I wasn't trying to defend Tebow in any other way than saying that the premise that he needs excuses is silly. We all know what we were looking at when Tebow came in as the starter and the fact is that he was wildly more successful than almost anyone gave him credit for. It's not saying he's pefect, but this time last year no one was even giving him credit as a mediocre QB. You've at least come that far. We'll see what next year holds.

SOCALORADO.

02-02-2012, 03:55 PM

You can not take a QB when you have too many holes. Eagles have had very good D and a good players on offense. NE has a great team. Good teams do pick QBs in mid rounds. Bad teams can not waste a picks when they have so many holes unless they KNOW 100% that they need a QB. How often do you see Bengals, Browns, TB, Miami, and St. Luis draft QBs? Not very often. They all drafted 1 within the last couple years. ONLY 1, they did not draft multiple just so they might have a future guy to trade for picks. They have riden out a QB for several years then drafted a new one when NEEDED.

Hey great examples of teams that have not won shit forever! LOL!
DEN doesnt know if TT is going to work out. He is a completely different type of player than Andy Dalton or Sam Bradford. He is lacking in many areas, and if he doesnt improve DEN will be screwed.
And waiting for another year and hoping Barkley will be available is not a plan.......unless your the Cleveland Browns or the Miami dolphins. :lol:

wayninja

02-02-2012, 04:06 PM

Actually, both offenses - just like the veer depend on deceptive formations and play calling, the option is a little more explosive because it relies on quick decision making from the quarterback position. Otherwise all three offenses rely on running quarterbacks as well as multi-dimensional running backs. The option, veer and wildcat to not utilize the passing offense the same way as pro-style and especially aerial offenses.

Almost every NFL offense relies, at least partly, on deception. Not sure where you are going with that. The big difference for me, is what you've already stated. Our offense relies on QB blah blah, Wildcat relies on RB blah blah. It doesn't need to be more complicated than that and it really isn't. Our offense is not the wildcat. It's really not even remotely like the wildcat and our reasons for using it aren't anywhere near the reasons Miami used it. We have no reason to believe that we want to use it next season.

As to the rest, I completely agree...we should have not used the option, or did so sparingly while Tim strived to conform to the pro-style. IMHO, I think it will hurt his development, and I know Tim can run the Air-Erhardt, we saw it last year against Houston and Oakland, so why not use a similar offense? Instead John Fox wanted to win, but what if they decide to return to the option instead? Three years from now, Fox will be gone and a whole new regime will come in and Tebow, no matter his fan base will likely be out. That's why I'm hoping that McCoy is going to force Tim to conform and to play in a pro-style offense and I hope he succeeds...however, I know there is a chance, greater then a little bit that he'll fail, and Denver has to be prepared in case of that IMHO.

I'd be very surprised if we went with the same style offense next year as last. There will most certainly be some carry-over and some Tebow designed draws and running plays, but I can't imagine a justification for keeping that offense. It hurts both Tebow and the Broncos in the long run.

Lancane

02-02-2012, 04:12 PM

You called me out on this when I wasn't trying to defend Tebow in any other way than saying that the premise that he needs excuses is silly. We all know what we were looking at when Tebow came in as the starter and the fact is that he was wildly more successful than almost anyone gave him credit for. It's not saying he's pefect, but this time last year no one was even giving him credit as a mediocre QB. You've at least come that far. We'll see what next year holds.

Not you Nin, I was calling out the blind devotees who acted like the kid nor the offense had to change - give minor adjustments, almost placating him with a deifying like stature that is well, unrealistic and slightly concerning to be honest.

:lol:

In all honesty, I'd be happy if Tim looked more like Sanchez, Flacco or Smith, good - not great - but solid enough that a team can win with them. He's got talent, that can not be argued...if I could give Tebow Cutler's Arm and Mechanics, he'd be an eventual HOF quarterback, right now...he's got an arm more akin to Joey Harrington. He's got to learn touch, presence, timing, reads and improve his overall accuracy. I hope he can, but I also wished that one day I would play in the NFL, sometimes wishes mean diddly-squat in light of reality.

TXBRONC

02-02-2012, 04:13 PM

Hey great examples of teams that have not won shit forever! LOL!
DEN doesnt know if TT is going to work out. He is a completely different type of player than Andy Dalton or Sam Bradford. He is lacking in many areas, and if he doesnt improve DEN will be screwed.
And waiting for another year and hoping Barkley will be available is not a plan.......unless your the Cleveland Browns or the Miami dolphins. :lol:

I wouldn't say were screwed Denver will just have to go in a different direction.

Lancane

02-02-2012, 04:17 PM

Almost every NFL offense relies, at least partly, on deception. Not sure where you are going with that. The big difference for me, is what you've already stated. Our offense relies on QB blah blah, Wildcat relies on RB blah blah. It doesn't need to be more complicated than that and it really isn't. Our offense is not the wildcat. It's really not even remotely like the wildcat and our reasons for using it aren't anywhere near the reasons Miami used it. We have no reason to believe that we want to use it next season.

Miami decided to use the Wildcat because it was a better fit for their quarterbacks Nin, similar to what we did. And then to top it off, they drafted players who fit that offense which only hurt them worse in the long run.

I'd be very surprised if we went with the same style offense next year as last. There will most certainly be some carry-over and some Tebow designed draws and running plays, but I can't imagine a justification for keeping that offense. It hurts both Tebow and the Broncos in the long run.

Yeah, but as you and I, and most everyone else knows...sometimes teams and organizations do shit that is rather confusing and what we see as down right stupidity. Such as trading a first for a second round pick to take Alphonso Smith, trading Lyle Alzado, letting Atwater and Sharpe go elsewhere and the list goes on.

;)

wayninja

02-02-2012, 04:21 PM

Not you Nin, I was calling out the blind devotees who acted like the kid nor the offense had to change - give minor adjustments, almost placating him with a deifying like stature that is well, unrealistic and slightly concerning to be honest.

Ok, well you quoted me and that hurt my fweewings...

In all honesty, I'd be happy if Tim looked more like Sanchez, Flacco or Smith, good - not great - but solid enough that a team can win with them. He's got talent, that can not be argued...if I could give Tebow Cutler's Arm and Mechanics, he'd be an eventual HOF quarterback, right now...he's got an arm more akin to Joey Harrington. He's got to learn touch, presence, timing, reads and improve his overall accuracy. I hope he can, but I also wished that one day I would play in the NFL, sometimes wishes mean diddly-squat in light of reality.

If he looked like any of those guys, I'd be bored, frankly. I like Tebow for his unconventiality (is that a word?). I don't think he can ever be Aaron Rogers and I don't want him to be. I want there to be more than 1 way to win. It may sound contradictory from my earlier statement that we can't stay with an option offense, but it's not. I'm fine running a pro-style, primarily pocket passing offense, I just don't think 2 successful QB's need to do it in exactly the same ways.

Take completion % for example. I'd rather someone struggle at 10-20 yards but be insane at 30+ yards as long as turnovers were kept down. There's nothing wrong with playing to strengths. There's no reason why Tebow can't be Tebow and still win. He doesn't have to be Rogers or Brady or even Rothlisburger (without the raping).

Personally, I see his problems right now as more to do with timing and learning pro offenses/defenses and decision-making more than anything physcial.

turftoad

02-02-2012, 04:31 PM

Ok, well you quoted me and that hurt my fweewings...

If he looked like any of those guys, I'd be bored, frankly. I like Tebow for his unconventiality (is that a word?). I don't think he can ever be Aaron Rogers and I don't want him to be. I want there to be more than 1 way to win. It may sound contradictory from my earlier statement that we can't stay with an option offense, but it's not. I'm fine running a pro-style, primarily pocket passing offense, I just don't think 2 successful QB's need to do it in exactly the same ways.

Take completion % for example. I'd rather someone struggle at 10-20 yards but be insane at 30+ yards as long as turnovers were kept down. There's nothing wrong with playing to strengths. There's no reason why Tebow can't be Tebow and still win. He doesn't have to be Rogers or Brady or even Rothlisburger (without the raping).

Personally, I see his problems right now as more to do with timing and learning pro offenses/defenses and decision-making more than anything physcial.

Have you watched his 5 second wind up? Looks like a slow motion round house.

Lancane

02-02-2012, 04:33 PM

Ok, well you quoted me and that hurt my fweewings...

Sorry, wasn't meant towards you...I'm talking more like Bullgator's ilk.

If he looked like any of those guys, I'd be bored, frankly. I like Tebow for his unconventiality (is that a word?). I don't think he can ever be Aaron Rogers and I don't want him to be. I want there to be more than 1 way to win. It may sound contradictory from my earlier statement that we can't stay with an option offense, but it's not. I'm fine running a pro-style, primarily pocket passing offense, I just don't think 2 successful QB's need to do it in exactly the same ways.

Take completion % for example. I'd rather someone struggle at 10-20 yards but be insane at 30+ yards as long as turnovers were kept down. There's nothing wrong with playing to strengths. There's no reason why Tebow can't be Tebow and still win. He doesn't have to be Rogers or Brady or even Rothlisburger (without the raping).

Personally, I see his problems right now as more to do with timing and learning pro offenses/defenses and decision-making more than anything physcial.

See, I think otherwise... If Tebow can develop into a more pro-style quarterback, then his other talents only enhance his ability to make the uncanny happen and wins would come at a more consistent rate, and that even means being able to compete in big contests against other powerhouse quarterbacks. Yes, he makes football exciting, but I'd rather win by 20 points then 3 at the last minute, because there is always a chance that you don't get those 3 and lose the game. It's about winning, and if you asked any coach, he'd tell you much the same - 'rather be ahead by three scores going into the second half and by about the same entering the fourth quarter', one score can easily be overcome, two scores are still possible with a great quarterback, three on the other hand is near impossible. I'm not looking for Tim to pass for 400 yards a game and tally 7 touchdowns, I'd be happy with an average of about 250 yards a game 'at least' and 3 touchdowns, not to mention a better overall completion percentage - just the mere fact that he could win with either his arm or his legs would be a huge plus for me.

wayninja

02-02-2012, 04:36 PM

Sorry, wasn't meant towards you...I'm talking more like Bullgator's ilk.

See, I think otherwise... If Tebow can develop into a more pro-style quarterback, then his other talents only enhance his ability to make the uncanny happen and wins would come at a more consistent rate, and that even means being able to compete in big contests against other powerhouse quarterbacks. Yes, he makes football exciting, but I'd rather win by 20 points then 3 at the last minute, because there is always a chance that you don't get those 3 and lose the game. It's about winning, and if you asked any coach, he'd tell you much the same - 'rather be ahead by three scores going into the second half and by about the same entering the fourth quarter', one score can easily be overcome, two scores are still possible with a great quarterback, three on the other hand is near impossible. I'm not looking for Tim to pass for 400 yards a game and tally 7 touchdowns, I'd be happy with an average of about 250 yards a game 'at least' and 3 touchdowns, not to mention a better overall completion percentage - just the mere fact that he could win with either his arm or his legs would be a huge plus for me.

Well, turning into a Rogers clone means de-emphasising Tebow's other useful athletic talents to the point of negligibility IMHO.

I don't really care what his stats are per game as long as some way is found to win.

catfish

02-02-2012, 04:38 PM

Sorry, wasn't meant towards you...I'm talking more like Bullgator's ilk.

See, I think otherwise... If Tebow can develop into a more pro-style quarterback, then his other talents only enhance his ability to make the uncanny happen and wins would come at a more consistent rate, and that even means being able to compete in big contests against other powerhouse quarterbacks. Yes, he makes football exciting, but I'd rather win by 20 points then 3 at the last minute, because there is always a chance that you don't get those 3 and lose the game. It's about winning, and if you asked any coach, he'd tell you much the same - 'rather be ahead by three scores going into the second half and by about the same entering the fourth quarter', one score can easily be overcome, two scores are still possible with a great quarterback, three on the other hand is near impossible. I'm not looking for Tim to pass for 400 yards a game and tally 7 touchdowns, I'd be happy with an average of about 250 yards a game 'at least' and 3 touchdowns, not to mention a better overall completion percentage - just the mere fact that he could win with either his arm or his legs would be a huge plus for me.

Do you mean 3 passing TD's a game or simply 3 team TD's a game? Just curious

Lancane

02-02-2012, 04:41 PM

Well, turning into a Rogers clone means de-emphasising Tebow's other useful athletic talents to the point of negligibility IMHO.

I don't really care what his stats are per game as long as some way is found to win.

Rodgers is one of the best passers in the game, I'm talking more middle of the road, like Big Ben or Joe Flacco, not the next Manning or Brady. If he remains much the same as he is now, then he becomes a liability for the offense and the team.

Lancane

02-02-2012, 04:45 PM

Do you mean 3 passing TD's a game or simply 3 team TD's a game? Just curious

Three passing, three in general he can do, due to his running ability. If he can become a consistent passer and has say an average of three passing touchdowns per game then add in a solid running game then this offense can compete with almost anyone.

catfish

02-02-2012, 04:51 PM

Three passing, three in general he can do, due to his running ability. If he can become a consistent passer and has say an average of three passing touchdowns per game then add in a solid running game then this offense can compete with almost anyone.

38 TDs is a pretty high number to hit. I would be happy to see the offense average 23 points instead of 19. That would put them right around NFL average

Lancane

02-02-2012, 05:03 PM

38 TDs is a pretty high number to hit. I would be happy to see the offense average 23 points instead of 19. That would put them right around NFL average

It's rather unlikely, but still a goal I'd like to see him aim for, I would say thirty passing touchdowns a season should be that goal line for him, because on average the quarterback who wins the Super Bowl has accomplished that feat. But I would be happy to see about 25 on average per season myself, it would prove he can be a legit franchise quarterback IMHO, which is middle of the road to upper echelon in passing touchdowns, so roughly 1.5 per game...he averaged less then 1.0 per game for the season. Eli Manning had 29 this year, Brady was astronomical again. And as I said before, I want his completion percentage to improve as well, I'd be happy with about a 55% or higher completion percentage overall. If he can improve his accuracy, release and overall touch, get down the reads and especially his timing, then I think it's plausible that he's a legit NFL quarterback, if he struggles and looks much like he did this year and has numbers about the same, then again he is a liability for the offense and the team.

catfish

02-02-2012, 05:09 PM

It's rather unlikely, but still a goal I'd like to see him aim for, I would say thirty passing touchdowns a season should be that goal line for him, because on average the quarterback who wins the Super Bowl has accomplished that feat. But I would be happy to see about 25 on average per season myself, it would prove he can be a legit franchise quarterback IMHO, which is middle of the road to upper echelon in passing touchdowns, so roughly 1.5 per game...he averaged less then 1.0 per game for the season. Eli Manning had 29 this year, Brady was astronomical again. And as I said before, I want his completion percentage to improve as well, I'd be happy with about a 55% or higher completion percentage overall.

I think 55% is pretty rational , and 25-30 Tds passing/rushing seems rational as well. I would also like to see the fumbles go down. Also would like to see the T/O differential go way up, 3 out of four of the top scoring teams had a T/O differential over +10, an -13 isn't going to cut it

jhns

02-02-2012, 05:20 PM

claymore

02-02-2012, 05:45 PM

What about the Raiders game? That's probably not the norm either. The Vikings game?

Who's making excuses now?

Raiders game = Carson Palmer, couch to NFL 2-4 weeks prior, never read the Raiders playbook before that.

Vikings game, No Adrian Peterson, rookie QB, shitty defense, and we barely won.

Not excuses, fact that we barley beat bad teams.

wayninja

02-02-2012, 06:12 PM

Raiders game = Carson Palmer, couch to NFL 2-4 weeks prior, never read the Raiders playbook before that.

Vikings game, No Adrian Peterson, rookie QB, shitty defense, and we barely won.

Not excuses, fact that we barley beat bad teams.

I love how you can so deftly move the argument.

point 1; You make excuses and then tell me you aren't making excuses.

point 2; You use the word 'fact' and then qualify it with 'barely'. You said 'barley', but figured you weren't talking about beer.

Nice objectivity.

MOtorboat

02-02-2012, 06:14 PM

Ben Roethlisberger is Tebow's upside.

Downside...I won't go there.

Npba900

02-02-2012, 06:49 PM

This has to happen. Bring in a fresh face and a Vet to back up Tebow. We need "Tebow insurance" and the draft is where we have to start.

No doubt Tebow needs to hear foot-steps in camp so as not to get complacent. After the Super Bowl.......T2 had better start his workout, film study, and work on his multitude of fundamental issues that he knows full well he must improve upon in order to get out of training camp and the preseason as the undisputed STARTER!!! Elway ain't screwing around with Tebow.:beer:

Npba900

02-02-2012, 06:56 PM

Raiders game = Carson Palmer, couch to NFL 2-4 weeks prior, never read the Raiders playbook before that.

Vikings game, No Adrian Peterson, rookie QB, shitty defense, and we barely won.

Not excuses, fact that we barley beat bad teams.

The 2012 schedule will not be a cake walk that's for sure. The Tebow Ball--Option Read caught the NFL off guard. Next season the entire league will know how to scheme and defend for Tebow Ball.....if Fox is foolish enough to put that lame gimmicky offense out there again, shame on Fox!!!

From Feb - June 012, Tebow had better learn to correct as many flaws in his game as possible and learn how to make opposing teams fear his passing ability, reading defenses, accuracy, and foot work from within the pocket; or his time in Denver as the QB will be cut short.

Npba900

02-02-2012, 07:04 PM

I didn't get all the way through this thread yet, but how can people think Yebow has a chance of being benched before the season?

1. He just took a team to a playoff win after being spotted a 1-4 record. This was the second worst team in the league the year before. A team that was 4-14 without Tebow, and 9-7 with him. The defense didn't just suddenly become amazing at halftime in the SD game. I don't think a lot of you understand why this team was winning games.

2. They started Orton after he looked better in camp, the same camp that made Julius Thomas look like a good TE. We started 1-4. Tebow, the worse camp player, then goes on to win the division and a playoff game. What exactly do you think happens to Elway and Fox if they switch QBs and come out losing? They will be forced to switch back to Tebow. If he then wins games again, do you think their jobs would be safe? I mean, the Orton decision was really close to being the difference between the playoffs and a top five pick.

They are going to start Tebow day one. He will either improve or play his way out of the league. His future is up to him.

Edit: This is assuming we don't somehow get a Manning or Luck.

How can you say T2 is the starter opening day! Tim hasn't had any competition yet. Tebow is only the starter going into training camp! and rightfully so. Elway and Fox is going make Tebow win the starting job not from running and executing the unsustainable Option Read scheme.

Tebow will be required to win the starting job by executing from the pocket. Not saying Tim can't win the starting job, but he has a lot to work on in terms of pocket awarness, footwork, reading defenses, checking down to 2nd and 3rd receivers, improving accuracy to sustain drives, and becoming more consistent.

MOtorboat

02-06-2012, 12:03 AM

It's 11 p.m. CST on Super Bowl Sunday. If you heard Trent Dilfer explain Manning's pass to Manningham, you will understand what it takes to be elite in the NFL.

Currently, Tebow does not possess that ability.

Npba900

02-06-2012, 08:54 PM

Personally, i think Campbell will still be looking for a starting job so despite how irked he may be at the Raiders i dont think he would want to come here to be a backup. He played really well last year and one could argue when he went down so did the Faid. Not sure where he would get a starting gig but i think that would be his first line of thinking before settling as a backup anywhere.

There's no reason why Campbell can't win the starting job here in Denver in 2012. Elway has already said there's no guarantee that Tebow will be the starter in 2012, let alone the starter for the entire 2012 season.

catfish

02-06-2012, 10:15 PM

wayninja

02-06-2012, 10:27 PM

say they do start someone other than Tebow, what do you think is going to happen if they start out 1-4 again?

If we start out that badly it will be because of the defense. But then if they put Tebow back in and we start winning, that will also be because of the defense.

EFX also may have a bit of egg to wash off.

catfish

02-07-2012, 11:28 AM

If we start out that badly it will be because of the defense. But then if they put Tebow back in and we start winning, that will also be because of the defense.

EFX also may have a bit of egg to wash off.

I understand where you were going, was kinda looking for a serious answer. Do you really think they will put Tebow back in? If they are starting a rookie I doubt they will.

wayninja

02-07-2012, 12:03 PM

I understand where you were going, was kinda looking for a serious answer. Do you really think they will put Tebow back in? If they are starting a rookie I doubt they will.

It would be dumb to put in a rookie, IMHO, and if they did, I would expect that Tebow would not be on the roster.

Having said that, if for some reason they did put in a rookie with Tebow as #2, and we started 1-4 with him, I would expect more billboards. I'm not sure how EFX would handle that. If this last season was any indication, they'd cave and put Tebow in.

catfish

02-07-2012, 12:05 PM

It would be dumb to put in a rookie, IMHO, and if they did, I would expect that Tebow would not be on the roster.

Having said that, if for some reason they did put in a rookie with Tebow as #2, and we started 1-4 with him, I would expect more billboards. I'm not sure how EFX would handle that. If this last season was any indication, they'd cave and put Tebow in.

I tend to agree about a rookie and the reaction. It is the reason that I think Tebow will start game 1 regardless of what happens in the offseason

Chef Zambini

02-07-2012, 12:08 PM

I didn't get all the way through this thread yet, but how can people think Yebow has a chance of being benched before the season?

1. He just took a team to a playoff win after being spotted a 1-4 record. This was the second worst team in the league the year before. A team that was 4-14 without Tebow, and 9-7 with him. The defense didn't just suddenly become amazing at halftime in the SD game. I don't think a lot of you understand why this team was winning games.

2. They started Orton after he looked better in camp, the same camp that made Julius Thomas look like a good TE. We started 1-4. Tebow, the worse camp player, then goes on to win the division and a playoff game. What exactly do you think happens to Elway and Fox if they switch QBs and come out losing? They will be forced to switch back to Tebow. If he then wins games again, do you think their jobs would be safe? I mean, the Orton decision was really close to being the difference between the playoffs and a top five pick.

They are going to start Tebow day one. He will either improve or play his way out of the league. His future is up to him.

Edit: This is assuming we don't somehow get a Manning or Luck.people think that because they are not blinded by the hype and TEAM victories and can see the incompetent aspects of tebows game.
regardless of the victories they can see the skills our QB does and does NOT have. They recognize that even a PUKE likie JMCD can win 6 games in a row, but once the "boK' is out on you, as it now is for timmy, winning becomes that much harder when defenses know what you can and CANT do well.
NOW timmys own team is going to take his lewgs out from under him and demand that he remain in a place where he feels most incompetent and vulnerable... the pocket.
good luck with that !

Mike

02-07-2012, 12:18 PM

There's no reason why Campbell can't win the starting job here in Denver in 2012. Elway has already said there's no guarantee that Tebow will be the starter in 2012, let alone the starter for the entire 2012 season.

If Denver picked up Campbell and he is the starter day 1, the fans will burn the house down and justifiably so. We been down that road with practice and second-rate QBs.

Tebow will be the starter day 1 if he is on the roster and is healthy. Whether he stays there after game 1 depends solely on his play.

wayninja

02-07-2012, 12:22 PM

people think that because they are not blinded by the hype and TEAM victories and can see the incompetent aspects of tebows game.
regardless of the victories they can see the skills our QB does and does NOT have. They recognize that even a PUKE likie JMCD can win 6 games in a row, but once the "boK' is out on you, as it now is for timmy, winning becomes that much harder when defenses know what you can and CANT do well.
NOW timmys own team is going to take his lewgs out from under him and demand that he remain in a place where he feels most incompetent and vulnerable... the pocket.
good luck with that !

Every QB has strengths and weaknesses. What is your point? It doesn't matter if they know his weaknesses as long as we execute our strengths better than they can stop it. You know, sorta how it works for every team.

Some of our wins this year were lucky, no doubt about it. But you still need to play to capitalize on bounces that roll your way and we did. And yeah, our wins were TEAM wins, just like all of them are. This is a TEAM sport.

catfish

02-07-2012, 12:29 PM

Every QB has strengths and weaknesses. What is your point? It doesn't matter if they know his weaknesses as long as we execute our strengths better than they can stop it. You know, sorta how it works for every team.

Some of our wins this year were lucky, no doubt about it. But you still need to play to capitalize on bounces that roll your way and we did. And yeah, our wins were TEAM wins, just like all of them are. This is a TEAM sport.

As a follow up I believe Denver's D had the lowest number of turnovers in the NFL(haven't verified). So if you believe in luck it would be more accurate to say Denver was lucky at the right time in several games, they certainly were not lucky overall, at least as far as getting turnovers/ short fields

SOCALORADO.

02-07-2012, 12:29 PM

If Denver picked up Campbell and he is the starter day 1, the fans will burn the house down and justifiably so. We been down that road with practice and second-rate QBs.

Tebow will be the starter day 1 if he is on the roster and is healthy. Whether he stays there after game 1 depends solely on his play.

And here ends the thread.

capt. Jack

02-07-2012, 02:14 PM

I think if Tebow doesn't start, he should be traded, cause his trade value is probably still not to bad? I'm not to excited bout an ex- raiders Qb.

TXBRONC

02-07-2012, 03:35 PM

His trade value is what? I keep seeing posts saying that Tebow's value isn't or that it's as high as it will ever get? That seems pretty nebulous to me.

catfish

02-07-2012, 03:50 PM

His trade value is what? I keep seeing posts saying that Tebow's value isn't or that it's as high as it will ever get? That seems pretty nebulous to me.

The only team I can imagine giving enough that the fanbase would be happy with the trade despite anything that happened next year would be Jax....and they have a lot of holes to fill too

TXBRONC

02-07-2012, 04:03 PM

The only team I can imagine giving enough that the fanbase would be happy with the trade despite anything that happened next year would be Jax....and they have a lot of holes to fill too

Fanbase may like to have Tebow but I don't think Jacksonville would likely place to because they just spent a high number one pick on Gabbert.

Lancane

02-07-2012, 04:26 PM

First off, I'm seeing all this talk of Jason Campbell, he's not even on the roster and I highly doubt Denver would sign a veteran that has pretty much never even been a has been in this league. But that is neither here or there though, the biggest issue is that there is that the circus will continue non-abated for some time. The Denver Post is printing stories, even on rumors that 'Tebow is trade bait', 'That he's focusing on other issues besides football'. Right now Tim is his own worst enemy, and Denver needs to figure out what's best for the future of the team.

Tim has to improve immensely, I've stated that time and time again, this offense will not win long-term running an offense that focuses on his strengths and covers for his weaknesses because then the offense in whole is weaker. Like McNabb, Tebow is going to have to conform to being a pocket capable quarterback or he'll fail and the proof of this is truly evident when you look at all the others who have failed before him to do so. Tim will have to come in an be vastly improved to be the starter come the beginning of the season.

The big issue for the team is can they risk going into the season with no one of quality to start in case he doesn't improve? Do you risk a season on Tebow, especially when they showed they would not risk the season on a veteran like Orton - whom they praised weeks before his being benched? It's a truly fickle scenario the team faces and I believe we'll see a quarterback taken early, not in the first round...but early enough that it will show that this team is quite not sold on Timmy. As for Tim, he needs to pull his head out of his butt and get to training if he wants to prove himself the unquestionable starter...instead he's more interested with the development of his hospital in the Philippines and possibly hitting the ballroom floor in Dancing with the Stars. Which to me is just more evidence that Denver needs to draft someone 'just in case'.

Jsteve01

02-07-2012, 04:39 PM

Lancane

02-07-2012, 05:35 PM

I still am of the mind that there are so many holes to fill on this team that unless someone you love takes a huge slide I don't want to spend second day picks on them. And there sure as hell isn't anyone I see sliding to 25. I want to see what we've got in Tebow before hedging our bets with a high round qb. Look we could draft MIKE, OG, RT, DT, CB S, or WR/Returner and address glaring needs. The whole thing with picking at those spots is that even if they don't start it helps to address depth.

As I pointed out to G in another thread, I don't believe this team is as thin on talent as some believe. We have a lot of youth on the offensive line and at safety, and I truly believe Denver will allow those kids to develop before going another route, if we add any it will be late IMHO and mainly for depth. Defensive tackle is a concern to an extent, we know that Del Rio likes big dump trucks for the inside, and if Denver re-signs Bunkley and Thomas, or just Bunkley, we have Warren and Vickerson returning, so we'll probably add a big, tough, defensive tackle in either the draft or free agency and be done with it - Del Rio will likely focus on outside linebacker and defensive end blitzes while plugging the middle. Mike linebacker is a concern, I believe Denver will go after Dan Connor because Fox knows him, he knows what Fox likes and he'll come at a reasonable price and be an upgrade over Mays, we could add some depth as well, but Denver I believe will focus to have as many holes filled so that they can literally go BPA in the draft.

Point is J, that while we could use more talent, we're not so depleted that we could not compete. If Jay Cutler was the starting quarterback of this team would we have been 9-9? More like 13-5, or so I believe.

echobravo

02-07-2012, 06:22 PM

Point is J, that while we could use more talent, we're not so depleted that we could not compete. If Jay Cutler was the starting quarterback of this team would we have been 9-9? More like 13-5, or so I believe.

Maybe, maybe. Then again old Cutler could never muster the energy to get in the playoffs with the Broncos. I will not go as far as to say we have the talent of a 4-12 club. More like 6-10 or 7-9, but that is because I am an optimist.

Jsteve01

02-07-2012, 07:09 PM

Maybe, maybe. Then again old Cutler could never muster the energy to get in the playoffs with the Broncos. I will not go as far as to say we have the talent of a 4-12 club. More like 6-10 or 7-9, but that is because I am an optimist.

Im no Cutler lover but in all fairness he had 1.5 seasons as a starter and no running game. Oh and Bob Slowick was the defensive coordinator on that team.

echobravo

02-08-2012, 05:32 PM

Im no Cutler lover but in all fairness he had 1.5 seasons as a starter and no running game. Oh and Bob Slowick was the defensive coordinator on that team.

I can agree with that.

Npba900

02-09-2012, 04:59 PM

I think if Tebow doesn't start, he should be traded, cause his trade value is probably still not to bad? I'm not to excited bout an ex- raiders Qb.

Exactly who are those teams out there that are interested in trading for Tebow?

Tebow finished the the season 1-4 and took over for Orton when Denver was 1-4. You factor in the lucky wins against Miami, Chicago, and Minnesota.

When Tebow was asked or forced to switch from Tebow-Ball-Read Option and made to play-perform from within the pocket /behind center, reading defenses, checking down to 2nd-3rd wr's, etc., Tebow has performed horrendously. One only needs to look at the Detroit game, Buffalo, and the Patriots.

There's talk out there that Tebow feels slighted by Elway because he wasn't named the starter for the 2012 season.

Tebow see's the writing on the wall that EFX will demand that Tim show them that he can operate effectively and consistently from With-In-The-Pocket and not so much depend upon the "Read Option"; of which in 2012 teams will have figured out and will shut it down.

I see Elway drafting a QB on the 2nd day. The rookie QB won't replace Tebow in 2012. But Tebow may be replaced at some point in 2012 by a veteran QB.

Npba900

02-09-2012, 05:03 PM

say they do start someone other than Tebow, what do you think is going to happen if they start out 1-4 again?

If Tebow is forced to execute exclusively from within the pocket or behind center in 2012 and he can't do it, the Broncos could start out the season 1-4 anyway.

Point is, Teams have figured out the Read Option and in the off-season will have schemed to shut it down further.

catfish

02-09-2012, 05:04 PM

Exactly who are those teams out there that are interested in trading for Tebow?

Tebow finished the the season 1-4 and took over for Orton when Denver was 1-4. You factor in the lucky wins against Miami, Chicago, and Minnesota.

When Tebow was asked or forced to switch from Tebow-Ball-Read Option and made to play-perform from within the pocket /behind center, reading defenses, checking down to 2nd-3rd wr's, etc., Tebow has performed horrendously. One only needs to look at the Detroit game, Buffalo, and the Patriots.

There's talk out there that Tebow feels slighted by Elway because he wasn't named the starter for the 2012 season.

Tebow see's the writing on the wall that EFX will demand that Tim show them that he can operate effectively and consistently from With-In-The-Pocket and not so much depend upon the "Read Option"; of which in 2012 teams will have figured out and will shut it down.

I see Elway drafting a QB on the 2nd day. The rookie QB won't replace Tebow in 2012. But Tebow may be replaced at some point in 2012 by a veteran QB.

I doubt they replace him, if he tanks they are going to want the highest draft pick possible for next draft

catfish

02-09-2012, 05:07 PM

If Tebow is forced to execute exclusively from within the pocket or behind center in 2012 and he can't do it, the Broncos could start out the season 1-4 anyway.

Point is, Teams have figured out the Read Option and in the off-season will have schemed to shut it down further.

yes, but 1-4 with Tebow would at least tell you something and serve to quell the circus. 1-4 with the guy who beats tebow out in the offseason and the billboards go back up, and its a blackmark against the FO

Npba900

02-09-2012, 05:59 PM

yes, but 1-4 with Tebow would at least tell you something and serve to quell the circus. 1-4 with the guy who beats tebow out in the offseason and the billboards go back up, and its a blackmark against the FO

If Tebow proves he cannot execute from within the pocket effectively and consistently, and teams have shown they know how to shut down the Read-Option......the billboards will not go up to protest on behalf of a benched Tebow.

Here's the irony, implementing the Read-Option to allow Tebow to be more comfortable has actually set Tebows development back one or two years; and hid the fact of how weak the Bronco team truly is at this point. Sure making the playoff's going 8-8 and winning one playoff game is great for the instant gratification fan base.

However, Denver is now drafting 25th which by then the talent has been diluted and facing a much tougher schedule in 2012 because they won one playoff game against an injury riddled Steeler's team.

Had EFX made Tebow sink or swim and furthering his development by making Tebow play from behind center and from within the pocket for the 11 games he started; more than likely Denver would be drafting in the top 2-7 of the draft order with only winning 2-4 games in 2011.

Well in 2012, teams will take Tebow Ball away from the Bronco offense and simply make Tebow and the Broncos execute and win games from within the pocket!!!

Lancane

02-14-2012, 12:32 AM

If Tebow proves he cannot execute from within the pocket effectively and consistently, and teams have shown they know how to shut down the Read-Option......the billboards will not go up to protest on behalf of a benched Tebow.

Maybe from the hardcore Tebow fanatics, but not by the Broncos' fans. The boo-birds will suddenly show themselves.

Here's the irony, implementing the Read-Option to allow Tebow to be more comfortable has actually set Tebows development back one or two years; and hid the fact of how weak the Bronco team truly is at this point. Sure making the playoff's going 8-8 and winning one playoff game is great for the instant gratification fan base.

Couldn't agree more, and I believe many of his fans are smart enough to know that is more then likely true...why else would so many of them be for and arguing to keep that very same offense going forward.

Sadly there are too many that are looking for instant gratification or simply base value on wins despite the overall future and longevity of the team itself. Half the Tebowites would be happy going 8-8 every year simply so they can say that he's not exactly a loser and let that be their base argument.

However, Denver is now drafting 25th which by then the talent has been diluted and facing a much tougher schedule in 2012 because they won one playoff game against an injury riddled Steeler's team.

Yeah, but as you know...that is said every year, sadly seven teams they'll be facing went into the playoffs, of those seven - five are continual threats to make the playoffs and go deep, two are steadily improving. It's not going to be a cakewalk, especially if the offense is struggling and has to do enough to win in the fourth quarter alone.

Had EFX made Tebow sink or swim and furthering his development by making Tebow play from behind center and from within the pocket for the 11 games he started; more than likely Denver would be drafting in the top 2-7 of the draft order with only winning 2-4 games in 2011.

More then likely, and it's partly why I feel the Broncos 'have to' draft a quarterback in this upcoming draft. Should Denver fall flat during the season, they'll likely have a high draft pick, but it's the time restraint that will strangle the current regime for drastic results, a year to train and develop a rookie quarterback, a year to play and to work out the remaining quirks and issues - Denver could be looking at another new regime at that point...and I think they know it. If they draft a kid this year and Tebow fails to improve that gives them three years, three to show they can do what they were hired to do, otherwise the whole regime could be marred and that includes John Elway.

Well in 2012, teams will take Tebow Ball away from the Bronco offense and simply make Tebow and the Broncos execute and win games from within the pocket!!!

That's a scary thought, though I believe Elway and Fox know as much, that's why I think there has been a lot said on the subject about them believing that Tebow can play and win from the pocket, bad news for them is now they have to prove it.