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topscribe
10-14-2007, 07:09 PM
I just saw NE take the helmets off their Cowboy opponents then hand them
back to them. It has been a long time since I have been so impressed.

Of course, Brady and his receivers were outrageously good. But then for their
three, we have three. For their RBs, we have RBs (for now). We probably
have the better defensive backfield.

Where I have seen the Broncos beaten, or potentially beaten in the case of
teams they haven't played, is in the comparative front sevens. Indy, NE, Jax,
and SD all have better front sevens than the Broncos.

In my opinion, the Broncos need at least two DTs and a replacement for Gold
before they even look like the belong back in the elite status. Of course, the
OL is problematic right now, but that is only because of injuries, with two of
their best three players out (Nalen, Hamilton) and the third (Lepsis) still
recovering his footwork.

I don't believe the Broncos have been beaten anywhere except the front
seven. If they were at least competent in stopping the run and could put a
bit more pressure on in the pass rush, I believe they wouuld have at least
reversed their record as it stands right now.

That is the biggest factor separating Denver from the likes of NE and Indy.

Am I all wet?

------

Simple Jaded
10-14-2007, 07:15 PM
Hire GM Scott Pioli.

Then make a trade for Shaun Rogers or Kris Jenkins...Then sign Albert Haynesworth...And draft Darren McFadden...Add some LB's...

[Edit] Sign Jordan Gross and Alan Faneca (If he becomes available)...

Requiem / The Dagda
10-14-2007, 08:11 PM
The biggest things that Patriots have that we don't are vocal and emotional leaders who get the best out of their fellow players and are inspired on the field. As I have mentioned with Warren and other defensive/offensive players who have come and gone (and who are still on the team) is that we have a lot of weak-minded players, and players who seem to be lack the qualities you want in starting players.

Let's face it (as you mentioned) our interior defensive line is a wreck. I'd get rid of guys like Burton and Gordon because they do not provide long-term options. It seems like Alvin McKinley and Marcus Thomas will be the only defensive tackles turning over to next season, and they are pretty much the same kind of player.

I think if Haynesworth becomes available (which is unlikely, because he's one of the best defensive players the Titans have) he'd be worth getting. However, motivation is a problem that surrounds protoo - but he is a top fifteen, probably top ten defensive tackle in the NFL.

Denver has receivers in Javon Walker and Brandon Marshall, but I don't think we have as potent as a third receiver, granted we do have some other targets at tight end. I'd still say New England has more talent on that department.

Another thing is, Denver is playing with big time injuries and are implementing a new defensive scheme, and a whole new team with 12-15 new starters (figuring in with injuries) this year. It's tough to win when the odds are stacked against you, but we should be able to be more competitive than this.

We face two of the best teams in football (record wise) with the Steelers and Packers in back to back weeks. These are the teams you beat to prove your worth in the NFL. They're home games, and folks they won't be getting any easier. With Kansas City and San Diego both winning, it's paramount we win this game against the Steelers. We need to pull an even horse with them, and if we happen to lose and one of them proves the victor (can't even say who they play) next Sunday, we're in trouble. That's two games, and that's two games in the AFC West we cannot afford to be behind.

In conclusion, we need some leaders - and Denver might need to get off their fetish of athletes and start drafting players. A throwback linebacker would be a start. He doesn't have to time near a 4.45 or 4.5 - he just needs to show the proper speed on the field. Get some nastiness in there, get some vocal leaders and young kids hungry to play - and a mix of veterans like a Haynesworth on the defensive side of the ball and perhaps another guy on the offensive side and in a year or so - we might be there.

Denver is going to have to shake things up major this season if they cannot improve right now, and I think the changes will come big time.

Tned
10-14-2007, 08:25 PM
I think early in the offseason when this discussion came up, it was shown that the Patriots have a pretty good nucleus of players that came from high draft picks in their horrible years. Obviously, Brady is pure luck, as TD was pure luck for the Broncos.

Beyond that, they clearly have great management, because they find the FA pieces to fill their hole that actually work out for them.

AlWilsonizKING
10-14-2007, 08:34 PM
HAha first thing I thought when reading the ending was a Karate Kid quote...


"HAHA Danielson, you all wet-a-behind-a ear...hahahaha"


I agree with you post though....I'm always yelling, "Get the QB!!!!" or "Why can't we stop him?"




PEACE!!!

lex
10-14-2007, 08:36 PM
A lot of good thinking in this thread. Yeah, clearly we need to do something about the front 7, namely the DTs and LBs. Drafting McFadden would also be nice and watching Peterson go off today only makes me like the idea of drafting him if at all possible. I also agree that we need to get LBs who are a little more grounded in the fundamentals like reading the play, shedding blocks and making tackles. Thats one of the reasons I had us taking Jameel McClain in my mock draft. Im actually more worried about acquiring a stop gap safety than a DT in FA. I think we have more options in the draft with DTs than Ss. Maybe Im wrong though.

DenBronx
10-14-2007, 09:13 PM
Hire GM Scott Pioli.

Then make a trade for Shaun Rogers or Kris Jenkins...Then sign Albert Haynesworth...And draft Darren McFadden...Add some LB's...

[Edit] Sign Jordan Gross and Alan Faneca (If he becomes available)...

pretty close to what i was thinking. faneca is protection for cutler and would be well worth the money.

DenBronx
10-14-2007, 09:18 PM
we need the 3rd or 4th wr to be a threat in the pr/kr game. that gimmick guy that you never know were the offense is going to put him. yet could also be a threat in the passing game too.

#1 jackson from CAL anyone?

lex
10-14-2007, 09:22 PM
we need the 3rd or 4th wr to be a threat in the pr/kr game. that gimmick guy that you never know were the offense is going to put him. yet could also be a threat in the passing game too.

#1 jackson from CAL anyone?

The guy you previously agreed with though advocated drafting McFadden. I agree, if we get a DT through FA then we can look at someone like Royal maybe.

jlarsiii
10-14-2007, 09:27 PM
Everyone has made good points so far in this thread. In my mind what separates the elite teams from teams like our own are a couple of things. When you look at the patriots you see a team that was built mainly through the draft with some FAs thrown in that have actually helped contribute to the team (as someone already pointed out). You all see a team that is well coached, that is very disciplined, and executes when they are on the field.

In other elite teams you see similar characteristics. For both Indy and SD they have predominantly built their teams through the draft with a few FAs here and there. For Indy you are probably looking at the epitome of execution on the field (at least offensively so). SD has had their problems to start the year, but I really put that on the coaching turnover they have had this offseason more than anything else.

This is how those teams separate from us. We don't have a team that is built through the draft. Historically in the Shanny era we have brought in FAs as stopgaps that have usually failed (and have given away draft picks in order to do so). Plus, there has been a general failure in the guys that we have selected. We have quite a laundry list of first round busts. Only in the last draft or two have we selected some talent, but we still gave away picks through trades etc. that have hurt the team. Moving along the other major area where we are deficient is in execution. Whether it is on the offensive side, defensive side, or on special teams we have just not executed. In this regard you have to blame both coaches and players. You generally don't see the best teams in the league consistenly shoot themselves in the foot. No one wins when you play that way.

For our team to get better we need to stick to the basics. We need to draft talent, coach the players up well, and execute the gameplan as given. When we get back to those fundamentals will be when we return to prominence. Until then you should expect to see a very similar product on the field to what we all have been witness to so far this season.

lex
10-14-2007, 09:41 PM
Everyone has made good points so far in this thread. In my mind what separates the elite teams from teams like our own are a couple of things. When you look at the patriots you see a team that was built mainly through the draft with some FAs thrown in that have actually helped contribute to the team (as someone already pointed out). You all see a team that is well coached, that is very disciplined, and executes when they are on the field.

In other elite teams you see similar characteristics. For both Indy and SD they have predominantly built their teams through the draft with a few FAs here and there. For Indy you are probably looking at the epitome of execution on the field (at least offensively so). SD has had their problems to start the year, but I really put that on the coaching turnover they have had this offseason more than anything else.

This is how those teams separate from us. We don't have a team that is built through the draft. Historically in the Shanny era we have brought in FAs as stopgaps that have usually failed (and have given away draft picks in order to do so). Plus, there has been a general failure in the guys that we have selected. We have quite a laundry list of first round busts. Only in the last draft or two have we selected some talent, but we still gave away picks through trades etc. that have hurt the team. Moving along the other major area where we are deficient is in execution. Whether it is on the offensive side, defensive side, or on special teams we have just not executed. In this regard you have to blame both coaches and players. You generally don't see the best teams in the league consistenly shoot themselves in the foot. No one wins when you play that way.

For our team to get better we need to stick to the basics. We need to draft talent, coach the players up well, and execute the gameplan as given. When we get back to those fundamentals will be when we return to prominence. Until then you should expect to see a very similar product on the field to what we all have been witness to so far this season.
I dont have a problem with signing FAs as stop gaps but youre right about giving up draft picks to acquire veterans. We made out on acquiring Javon Walker especially with that being a weak DC for WRs but in generaly, yeah, we should be more committed to the draft. Id kind of like to see us sign Faneca OR Haynesworth for that reason.

But lets also be honest. We havent has a QB on par with Brady or Manning either. So part of it for us is the maturity of Cutler.

dogfish
10-14-2007, 10:16 PM
all we need is a first-ballot hall of fame QB in his prime, a more physical offensive line, 8-9 new starters on defense (plus a few depth guys), and good kick and punt returners. . . .


wow, that's kind of a lot. . . . :ahhhhh:


hell, right now i'd be happy to be as good as jacksonville, let alone new england!

sneakers
10-14-2007, 11:13 PM
I dunno.....CHEAT! :confused:

lex
10-14-2007, 11:14 PM
I dunno.....CHEAT! :confused:
ZING!!!!!!!

LoyalSoldier
10-14-2007, 11:34 PM
Is kidnapping their defensive line an option?

Watchthemiddle
10-14-2007, 11:56 PM
Grow up together.

This team is young. Once our young nucleaus plays together and grows together we will be looking good.

The key is keeping the core of talented young players together over a decent period of time.

sneakers
10-15-2007, 12:31 AM
Is kidnapping their defensive line an option?

We already tried that one....unfortunately we kidnapped the Cleveland Browns.

omac
10-15-2007, 12:41 AM
I just saw NE take the helmets off their Cowboy opponents then hand them
back to them. It has been a long time since I have been so impressed.

Of course, Brady and his receivers were outrageously good. But then for their
three, we have three. For their RBs, we have RBs (for now). We probably
have the better defensive backfield.

Where I have seen the Broncos beaten, or potentially beaten in the case of
teams they haven't played, is in the comparative front sevens. Indy, NE, Jax,
and SD all have better front sevens than the Broncos.

In my opinion, the Broncos need at least two DTs and a replacement for Gold
before they even look like the belong back in the elite status. Of course, the
OL is problematic right now, but that is only because of injuries, with two of
their best three players out (Nalen, Hamilton) and the third (Lepsis) still
recovering his footwork.

I don't believe the Broncos have been beaten anywhere except the front
seven. If they were at least competent in stopping the run and could put a
bit more pressure on in the pass rush, I believe they wouuld have at least
reversed their record as it stands right now.

That is the biggest factor separating Denver from the likes of NE and Indy.

Am I all wet?

------

Nice post/topic topscribe! :salute:

First of all, like dogfish has mentioned, the Pats just have way too many advantages, not just in personel, but in experience and championship experience, for the Broncos or any other team in the NFL not named the Colts to come close to their level right now. They just put a beating on maybe the 2nd or 3rd best team in the NFL.

I do agree with you that what we lack is a defensive line that can stop the run, and if we can somehow(?) develop this during this season, we will be competitive with ANY team, including the Patriots. And that's even with our deficiencies in special teams.

Of the teams left on their schedule, the Colts and the Steelers will give them a hard time, but I think the Giants are a darkhorse to beat them with their great pass rushers, and their ability to put up a lot of points ..... plus, they'll probably bench their starters to make sure they're healthy for the playoffs. Haha, they lose a #1 pick. :D

gobroncsnv
10-15-2007, 02:39 AM
I watched the game today, and found myself to be rooting for Dallas... and they were in my top 3 of most hated teams... But now there is a 4th, the Pats.
That said, it is really hard to think up anyone who will beat them this year.

I couldn't help but think that as good as Dallas is at the front 4, they still couldn't bring any kind of consistent pressure on Brady. So chalk up a fabulous Oline for NE, beacuse that floored me. I thought Spears, Canty, and Ware would be able to rip them a new one. Our oline needs to be this good.

And the Pats receivers were just running free pretty much the whole game. I don't remember our guys getting that kind of separation, and are usually hit immediately after the catch. Glad to see Bmarsh getting yards after contact (hang on to the stinkin' ball, though), but do we not run any patterns where the receiver makes a catch and then is running in daylight? (Or, since I only get to see the TV view, are we not finding the right guys in our patterns???)
I think our receivers are pretty close to as good as theirs, but there is definitely a striking difference on the level of success here.

They obviously are a pass first team, but it didn't matter who they had at RB, Morris or Faulk, a successful passing game like that makes almost ANY running play a good gainer. You said it already, our running game is at least as good, but we can't stay on the field long enough to prove it.

But I think it really comes down to having a GREAT oline, which makes everybody else look really good. Brady has the time (and experience) to find the guy(s) running free, and when you salt in a run, it's not just a throwaway down. Their guys can provide any kind of blocking required. We sure can't say that.

You can't oversell the line of scrimmage to me, there is just no acceptable substitute.

It's too stinking late to do a discourse on the Pats' D, but we've pretty much all beaten around that bush anyways...

Retired_Member_001
10-15-2007, 03:38 AM
Hire GM Scott Pioli.

Then make a trade for Shaun Rogers or Kris Jenkins...Then sign Albert Haynesworth...And draft Darren McFadden...Add some LB's...

[Edit] Sign Jordan Gross and Alan Faneca (If he becomes available)...

EXACTLY!

If we brought in Shaun Rogers or Kris Jenkins, our run defense would be so much better. They are top DT's in my opinion. Albert Haynesworth is a good DT aswell, he's a powerfull guy.

If we signed Jordan Gross and Alan Faneca, I wouldn't have to have such a go at our offensive line. Why? Because they would be GOOD for once. Alan Faneca is very unhappy in Pittsburgh and is DEFINITELY leaving. I also think Jordan Gross will leave Carolina, he would be a great signing, he's a great LT/RT (he plays both positions).

Although I don't think we will land a top 3 pick, I wouldn't be suprised to see Shanny trade up. I predict we will still have a 9-7 season, but don't be suprised to see Shannahan trade just about everything. We remember the rumor we were going to trade basically all our picks and Al Wilson for Calvin Johnson.

I'm all excited because all of these are possibilities.

Skinny
10-15-2007, 08:20 AM
Stop the run and our bleeding stops dramatically. Haynesworth Will do for me with the hopes of Thomas continuing to grow. Hopefully Thomas will down a starting DT position at the beginning of next year.

Last night Dallas did nothing to protect the middle of the feild and Brady & Co. ate it up. Coyer always did a great job against NE in shifting the D-Line around and disquising coverages to confuse Brady.

Double down on Moss with a Safety over the top (CB underneath) and play Welker and Stallworth physical at the line (Jamming) to give your pass rush more time to get to Brady. Brady was way to comfortable in the pocket through-out the whole game not to pick and chose his big plays. NE pass protection last night was key.

Asking 260 pound LBs (Ellis,Spencer,Ware) to cover anybody, lone enough speedsters, for an extended amount of time . . . that's a huge mismatch. If you have a good 3 WR set and can give your QB a second to throw the ball, you can eat Dallas's D up all day (like NE did).

topscribe
10-15-2007, 09:10 AM
We already tried that one....unfortunately we kidnapped the Cleveland Browns.

Hmmm . . . must have taken the wrong turn along the way.

Where's that map again?

-----

Retired_Member_001
10-15-2007, 09:21 AM
Just to add on my previous comment.

Watching the extended highlights of the New England V Dallas Cowboys game again, you see where alot of the Patriots sucess comes from, the offensive line. In my opinion, Matt Light and Logan Mankins are one of the best plays in their positions (Light LT, Mankins LG) and that helps Brady tremendously. Just watch how much time Brady has to throw the ball (in all games), and how little time Cutler has to throw the ball. The difference is outstanding and the thing is, the Patriots offensive line isn't even the best in football.

As long we have the likes of Erik Pears, Montrae Holland and banged up Matt Lepsis blocking for us, we don't have a chance to be as good as the Patriots.

Medford Bronco
10-15-2007, 10:29 AM
I just saw NE take the helmets off their Cowboy opponents then hand them
back to them. It has been a long time since I have been so impressed.

Of course, Brady and his receivers were outrageously good. But then for their
three, we have three. For their RBs, we have RBs (for now). We probably
have the better defensive backfield.

Where I have seen the Broncos beaten, or potentially beaten in the case of
teams they haven't played, is in the comparative front sevens. Indy, NE, Jax,
and SD all have better front sevens than the Broncos.

In my opinion, the Broncos need at least two DTs and a replacement for Gold
before they even look like the belong back in the elite status. Of course, the
OL is problematic right now, but that is only because of injuries, with two of
their best three players out (Nalen, Hamilton) and the third (Lepsis) still
recovering his footwork.

I don't believe the Broncos have been beaten anywhere except the front
seven. If they were at least competent in stopping the run and could put a
bit more pressure on in the pass rush, I believe they wouuld have at least
reversed their record as it stands right now.

That is the biggest factor separating Denver from the likes of NE and Indy.

Am I all wet?

------


top you are just a bit damp :laugh: JK btw

the Pats are one of the most complete teams I have seen since the 1984 49ers. they are clearly unstoppable right now and if they get by Indy they might just go 16-0 (throws up in mouth thinking of that)

the have the best coach (no one is even a close 2nd now :( )

the have the best QB in the league (please no Brady is overrated stuff, He is haveing a historic season and has a chance to throw well over 40 tds which is unbeliveable

the have a great offensive line - brady can get a coffee and donut and giving him that kind of time he will kill ANY defense

the have 3 outstanding WRS - Moss makes them unstoppable because he is interested this year. Welker is underrated and Stallworth is a number 1/2 as their 3. that is frightening for any defense. Also Ben Watson looks good as well

the d line is awesome. Wilfork, jarvis green and still no seymore and doing this is unbelievalbe

very good to great LBS....Colvin, Vrabel and A Thomas are fast and cause havoc to any QB and RB. and Brushi is still smart

very good seconary...Samuel and Hobbs are good, along with Harrison, Wilson round out a good secondary

this team has No holes and the only way they lose a game is if they just play bad and I dont see that happening too often

15-1 and super bowl champs im afraid and ready to get flamed now :laugh:

lex
10-15-2007, 10:37 AM
top you are just a bit damp :laugh: JK btw

the Pats are one of the most complete teams I have seen since the 1984 49ers. they are clearly unstoppable right now and if they get by Indy they might just go 16-0 (throws up in mouth thinking of that)

the have the best coach (no one is even a close 2nd now :( )

the have the best QB in the league (please no Brady is overrated stuff, He is haveing a historic season and has a chance to throw well over 40 tds which is unbeliveable

the have a great offensive line - brady can get a coffee and donut and giving him that kind of time he will kill ANY defense

the have 3 outstanding WRS - Moss makes them unstoppable because he is interested this year. Welker is underrated and Stallworth is a number 1/2 as their 3. that is frightening for any defense. Also Ben Watson looks good as well

the d line is awesome. Wilfork, jarvis green and still no seymore and doing this is unbelievalbe

very good to great LBS....Colvin, Vrabel and A Thomas are fast and cause havoc to any QB and RB. and Brushi is still smart

very good seconary...Samuel and Hobbs are good, along with Harrison, Wilson round out a good secondary

this team has No holes and the only way they lose a game is if they just play bad and I dont see that happening too often

15-1 and super bowl champs im afraid and ready to get flamed now :laugh:

Honestly, there are about 4 or 5 teams from the 90s that could beat these Patriots.

The Cowboys of 92-95
The Niners of 92-94
The Packers of 96-97
The Broncos of 96-98

All of those teams would give these Patriots a lot of problems. People get so enraptured by the moment though.

Medford Bronco
10-15-2007, 10:42 AM
Honestly, there are about 4 or 5 teams from the 90s that could beat these Patriots.

The Cowboys of 92-95
The Niners of 92-94
The Packers of 96-97
The Broncos of 96-98

All of those teams would give these Patriots a lot of problems. People get so enraptured by the moment though.

people get entrapped because they deserve credit for now

the teams played for the most part WITHOUT a salary cap.

this is a new world and they deserve credit, even though I cant stand them.

I also think they beat the Packers of 96-97 as well. The packers would have no answer for Moss and the others are toss up games.

the 80s 9ers were better than the Steve Young led 49ers who only won one Super Bowl. I like Steve Young but he had lots of trouble beating the Cowboys like Manning for the most part has had with the pats minus last year of course

lex
10-15-2007, 10:50 AM
people get entrapped because they deserve credit for now

the teams played for the most part WITHOUT a salary cap.

this is a new world and they deserve credit, even though I cant stand them.

I also think they beat the Packers of 96-97 as well. The packers would have no answer for Moss and the others are toss up games.

the 80s 9ers were better than the Steve Young led 49ers who only won one Super Bowl. I like Steve Young but he had lots of trouble beating the Cowboys like Manning for the most part has had with the pats minus last year of course

I disagree. The Packers had a good defense and Reggie White on the Dline.

Also, the Niners of the 80s were not better than the Niners of the 90s. Its just that the Niners of the 80s didnt have to square off against those Packers or Cowboys teams.

And I dont see the Patriots stopping the running games of the Cowboys or Broncos. As we know from this year, if you cant stop the run, its very hard to win.

Medford Bronco
10-15-2007, 10:59 AM
I disagree. The Packers had a good defense and Reggie White on the Dline.

Also, the Niners of the 80s were not better than the Niners of the 90s. Its just that the Niners of the 80s didnt have to square off against those Packers or Cowboys teams.

And I dont see the Patriots stopping the running games of the Cowboys or Broncos. As we know from this year, if you cant stop the run, its very hard to win.

The Niners of the 80s 4 Super Bowls the
49ers of the 90s one Super Bowl and lost to the Cowboys in the Chamipionship Game twice. but isnt 4 better than one:confused:

the 80s 49ers beat Denver 55-10 in the Super Bowl and beat the Dolphins with Dan Marino 38-16.
I will take Montana team overall over the 90s 49ers any day of the week.

topscribe
10-15-2007, 11:09 AM
The Niners of the 80s 4 Super Bowls the
49ers of the 90s one Super Bowl and lost to the Cowboys in the Chamipionship Game twice. but isnt 4 better than one:confused:

the 80s 49ers beat Denver 55-10 in the Super Bowl and beat the Dolphins with Dan Marino 38-16.
I will take Montana team overall over the 90s 49ers any day of the week.

I have to agree. I believe the Niners of the '80s would compete with the
Steelers of the '70s and Packers of the '60s as the G.O.A.T. dynasties in
football, and the mid-80s Niners as the G.O.A.T team.

What is really hard to swallow is that the Pats of the last decade are
threatening to join that crowd. :eviltongue:

-----

Den21vsBal19
10-15-2007, 11:19 AM
I just saw NE take the helmets off their Cowboy opponents then hand them
back to them. It has been a long time since I have been so impressed.

Of course, Brady and his receivers were outrageously good. But then for their
three, we have three. For their RBs, we have RBs (for now). We probably
have the better defensive backfield.

Where I have seen the Broncos beaten, or potentially beaten in the case of
teams they haven't played, is in the comparative front sevens. Indy, NE, Jax,
and SD all have better front sevens than the Broncos.

In my opinion, the Broncos need at least two DTs and a replacement for Gold
before they even look like the belong back in the elite status. Of course, the
OL is problematic right now, but that is only because of injuries, with two of
their best three players out (Nalen, Hamilton) and the third (Lepsis) still
recovering his footwork.

I don't believe the Broncos have been beaten anywhere except the front
seven. If they were at least competent in stopping the run and could put a
bit more pressure on in the pass rush, I believe they wouuld have at least
reversed their record as it stands right now.

That is the biggest factor separating Denver from the likes of NE and Indy.

Am I all wet?

------

I only saw the end, after they swtiched over from the Faiders game, and I gotta admit, they were scary good..................I hate to think what they would do to us at the moment.............

And I think you're pretty close to right on the defensive side of the ball, although we do have a ready made top-drawer replacement for Gold in the shape of Williams, we really need to stop try to force round pegs into square holes.


The biggest things that Patriots have that we don't are vocal and emotional leaders who get the best out of their fellow players and are inspired on the field. As I have mentioned with Warren and other defensive/offensive players who have come and gone (and who are still on the team) is that we have a lot of weak-minded players, and players who seem to be lack the qualities you want in starting players.

That was one of the things that concerned me down the stretch last season, despite the fact that he'd been replaced, Plummer seemed to be the player who was getiing into peoples faces and trying to gee them up...............I seem to remember that in one of the games last year someone made the comment that he was about the only person trying to inspire the team at half time.

Champ is always going to lead through his play, and Lynch, whilst inspirational, is going to go about it with a quiet word here and there..............maybe the biggest loss player wise over the last few years was in fact ol' motor mouth himself, Shanno Sharpe?

underrated29
10-15-2007, 11:30 AM
Is it me or are the pats remarkably similiar to the 98' vikes (was it 98'?).

Both had moss, both had a great qb, who would just let it rip throught the air. Both would score record amount of points per game consistantly, and most likely for a season. Both teams were able to defend their lead. I dont know. They are pretty close, now people will say the pats are better, hopefully they arent.

on topic though, i would agree that the pats and us are very similiar teams and have been for a while. I also think top that the major difference is the lines. IMO their LB's arent that much better than ours, if any. yeah they got the names, but the only advantage to me is their leadership from those lbs.

Lonestar
10-15-2007, 12:20 PM
top you are just a bit damp :laugh: JK btw

the Pats are one of the most complete teams I have seen since the 1984 49ers. they are clearly unstoppable right now and if they get by Indy they might just go 16-0 (throws up in mouth thinking of that)

the have the best coach (no one is even a close 2nd now :( )

the have the best QB in the league (please no Brady is overrated stuff, He is haveing a historic season and has a chance to throw well over 40 tds which is unbeliveable

the have a great offensive line - brady can get a coffee and donut and giving him that kind of time he will kill ANY defense

the have 3 outstanding WRS - Moss makes them unstoppable because he is interested this year. Welker is underrated and Stallworth is a number 1/2 as their 3. that is frightening for any defense. Also Ben Watson looks good as well

the d line is awesome. Wilfork, jarvis green and still no seymore and doing this is unbelievalbe

very good to great LBS....Colvin, Vrabel and A Thomas are fast and cause havoc to any QB and RB. and Brushi is still smart

very good seconary...Samuel and Hobbs are good, along with Harrison, Wilson round out a good secondary

this team has No holes and the only way they lose a game is if they just play bad and I dont see that happening too often

15-1 and super bowl champs im afraid and ready to get flamed now :laugh:

I agree with you 100% this team, without any injuries will not be beaten this year, unless they really let down against someone.

As someone mentioned they have primarily been built via the draft and for the most part while being a damned fine team using in some cases someones else's top choices.


2007 - New England Patriots 12-4 in 2006
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 24 Brandon Meriweather SAF Miami (Fla.)
4 127 Kareem Brown DT Miami (Fla.)

2006 - New England Patriots 10-6 in 2005
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 21 Laurence Maroney RB Minnesota
2 36 Chad Jackson WR Florida
3 86 David Thomas TE Texas
4 106 Garrett Mills RB Tulsa
4 118 Stephen Gostkowski K Memphis

2005 - New England Patriots 14-2 in 2004
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 32 Logan Mankins G Fresno State
3 84 Ellis Hobbs CB Iowa State
3 100 Nick Kaczur T Toledo
4 133 James Sanders SAF Fresno State

2004 - New England Patriots 14-2 in 2003Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 21 Vince Wilfork NT Miami (Fla.)
1 32 Benjamin Watson TE Georgia
2 63 Marquise Hill DE Louisiana State
3 95 Guss Scott SAF Florida
4 113 Dexter Reid SAF North Carolina
4 128 Cedric Cobbs RB Arkansas

2003 - New England Patriots 9-7 2002
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 13 Ty Warren DE Texas A&M
2 36 Eugene Wilson FS Illinois
2 45 Bethel Johnson WR Texas A&M
4 117 Dan Klecko DT Temple
4 120 Asante Samuel CB Central Florida

2002 - New England Patriots 11-5 in 2001
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 21 Daniel Graham TE Colorado
2 65 Deion Branch WR Louisville
4 117 Rohan Davey QB Louisiana State
4 126 Jarvis Green DE Louisiana State

2001 - New England Patriots 5-11 in 2000Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 6 Richard Seymour DT Georgia
2 48 Matt Light T Purdue
3 86 Brock Williams CB Notre Dame
4 96 Kenyatta Jones T South Florida
4 119 Jabari Holloway TE Notre Dame

1999 - New England Patriots 9-7 in 1998
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 17 Damien Woody C Boston College
1 28 Andy Katzenmoyer MLB Ohio State
2 46 Kevin Faulk RB Louisiana State
3 91 Tony George DB Florida

35 choices over these years all in the top 130 or so players in the draft. Now not all of them are with the team yet but they had options to take quality payers here. Note all of the double picks each year, I hi-lighted in yellow. The GM in concert with the coach has made some great moves on acquiring top tier talent using draft choices.
I was trying to find who the draft choice actually belonged to but, NFL.com used to say who the drafts choices belonged to it no longer does in the new format.


Let me add that the Broncos having the injuries on the DL and OLINE the last two years has caused havoc in consistency.

That and the almost total lack of acquiring talent at DT is almost criminal IMO. Now we have damned good looking nucleus of talent on the DLine IF THEY add a couple of big bodies in there either in FA or where it should be in the draft this team has a lot of potential to be a top tier team if and when Jay grows up.

lex
10-15-2007, 12:46 PM
The Niners of the 80s 4 Super Bowls the
49ers of the 90s one Super Bowl and lost to the Cowboys in the Chamipionship Game twice. but isnt 4 better than one:confused:

the 80s 49ers beat Denver 55-10 in the Super Bowl and beat the Dolphins with Dan Marino 38-16.
I will take Montana team overall over the 90s 49ers any day of the week.

No. Once again, theyre perceived differently but a team that was put together like the Cowboys of the 90s existed in the 80s, the Niners of the 80s dont win 4 Super Bowls. The Niners of the 90s were better but had to get past a better team to win SBs...but since they didnt win SBs that alters peoples perceptions.

Medford Bronco
10-15-2007, 12:53 PM
No. Once again, theyre perceived differently but a team that was put together like the Cowboys of the 90s existed in the 80s, the Niners of the 80s dont win 4 Super Bowls. The Niners of the 90s were better but had to get past a better team to win SBs...but since they didnt win SBs that alters peoples perceptions.

okay Nostradamus :rolleyes:


4 is better than one case closed.

the 80s Niners had it all. the 90s Niners did it for one year and choked,

lex
10-15-2007, 01:06 PM
okay Nostradamus :rolleyes:


4 is better than one case closed.

the 80s Niners had it all. the 90s Niners did it for one year and choked,


No, like I said, the SBs alters perceptions.

Medford Bronco
10-15-2007, 01:08 PM
No, like I said, the SBs alters perceptions.

whatever you say whodini :listen:

Retired_Member_001
10-15-2007, 02:39 PM
I agree with you 100% this team, without any injuries will not be beaten this year, unless they really let down against someone.

As someone mentioned they have primarily been built via the draft and for the most part while being a damned fine team using in some cases someones else's top choices.


2007 - New England Patriots 12-4 in 2006
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 24 Brandon Meriweather SAF Miami (Fla.)
4 127 Kareem Brown DT Miami (Fla.)

2006 - New England Patriots 10-6 in 2005
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 21 Laurence Maroney RB Minnesota
2 36 Chad Jackson WR Florida
3 86 David Thomas TE Texas
4 106 Garrett Mills RB Tulsa
4 118 Stephen Gostkowski K Memphis

2005 - New England Patriots 14-2 in 2004
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 32 Logan Mankins G Fresno State
3 84 Ellis Hobbs CB Iowa State
3 100 Nick Kaczur T Toledo
4 133 James Sanders SAF Fresno State

2004 - New England Patriots 14-2 in 2003Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 21 Vince Wilfork NT Miami (Fla.)
1 32 Benjamin Watson TE Georgia
2 63 Marquise Hill DE Louisiana State
3 95 Guss Scott SAF Florida
4 113 Dexter Reid SAF North Carolina
4 128 Cedric Cobbs RB Arkansas

2003 - New England Patriots 9-7 2002
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 13 Ty Warren DE Texas A&M
2 36 Eugene Wilson FS Illinois
2 45 Bethel Johnson WR Texas A&M
4 117 Dan Klecko DT Temple
4 120 Asante Samuel CB Central Florida

2002 - New England Patriots 11-5 in 2001
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 21 Daniel Graham TE Colorado
2 65 Deion Branch WR Louisville
4 117 Rohan Davey QB Louisiana State
4 126 Jarvis Green DE Louisiana State

2001 - New England Patriots 5-11 in 2000Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 6 Richard Seymour DT Georgia
2 48 Matt Light T Purdue
3 86 Brock Williams CB Notre Dame
4 96 Kenyatta Jones T South Florida
4 119 Jabari Holloway TE Notre Dame

1999 - New England Patriots 9-7 in 1998
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 17 Damien Woody C Boston College
1 28 Andy Katzenmoyer MLB Ohio State
2 46 Kevin Faulk RB Louisiana State
3 91 Tony George DB Florida

35 choices over these years all in the top 130 or so players in the draft. Now not all of them are with the team yet but they had options to take quality payers here. Note all of the double picks each year, I hi-lighted in yellow. The GM in concert with the coach has made some great moves on acquiring top tier talent using draft choices.
I was trying to find who the draft choice actually belonged to but, NFL.com used to say who the drafts choices belonged to it no longer does in the new format.


Let me add that the Broncos having the injuries on the DL and OLINE the last two years has caused havoc in consistency.

That and the almost total lack of acquiring talent at DT is almost criminal IMO. Now we have damned good looking nucleus of talent on the DLine IF THEY add a couple of big bodies in there either in FA or where it should be in the draft this team has a lot of potential to be a top tier team if and when Jay grows up.

I like the point about the draft Jrwiz.

For example, where the hell were we when Vince Wilfork was up for grabs? I'll answer this one, the Cleveland Browns.

OB
10-15-2007, 02:50 PM
Cheat like they do :coffee: :D

Retired_Member_001
10-15-2007, 02:58 PM
Cheat like they do :coffee: :D

Ah yes, the best post in the thread.

How did we all forget about this one?

I think we should draft Steven Spielberg.

LoyalSoldier
10-15-2007, 06:45 PM
We already tried that one....unfortunately we kidnapped the Cleveland Browns.

Dang I knew that didn't look like Boston when I was there!

lex
10-15-2007, 07:39 PM
okay Nostradamus :rolleyes:


4 is better than one case closed.

the 80s Niners had it all. the 90s Niners did it for one year and choked,


whatever you say whodini :listen:

Youre arguing one team is better than the other without ever having seen them play each other yet youre calling me names? Ha! I laugh in your general direction.

HORSEPOWER 56
10-15-2007, 08:14 PM
In order to be on par with most of the other teams in the league, we really need to take a long, hard look at what we have and what we need.

On offense, we need consistency and a little more experience. I'm very confident that the guys we have can be a very good and dangerous unit on par with NE or Indy, but many of them are not used to playing together. The plays work, the schemes work, the talent is there. it's just a matter of execution and being able to start fast and maintain momentum. There are too many dropped passes, fumbles, and penalties that stem from mental errors and lack of focus/experience. Not having a revolving door at starting RB is essential and we just keep picking them up and then getting rid of them.

On defense, we need to build a team around Bates' system. Some of the pieces are already in place - excellent CBs and pass rushing DEs (granted, they're still very young but I have no doubt that Elvis, Jarvis, and Tim are "sky's the limit" type players who should grow to be very good pros). What we're missing are DTs that can push the pocket and control the LOS. I think the experiment with DJ in the middle is rapidly proving to be a poor one and I think we should move him back to the weak side and cut Ian Gold. We should draft/sign a MLB who is a run stopper and find a SLB in the later rounds. It may be time to get younger at Safety, also. If it's Hamza's time, so be it, but I'd like to see us search out a real Safety instead of trying to convert CBs (Foxworth, Cox) to do the job.

STs is just a mess and I don't have an answer as to why. I don't know if it's the blocking or the returner on returns but they're terrible. Our kick coverage is miserable, also. Of all though, STs are important, but not crucial to be an elite team.

Right now, we need defense, defense, and more defense. Bates' system is proven to work, we just need to get him the required pieces. Hopefully in a year or two, we'll have what we need.

Medford Bronco
10-15-2007, 08:29 PM
Youre arguing one team is better than the other without ever having seen them play each other yet youre calling me names? Ha! I laugh in your general direction.

and I think your opinons are way off base.

whodini is in jest, but take it like you may

Lonestar
10-15-2007, 10:04 PM
I like the point about the draft Jrwiz.

For example, where the hell were we when Vince Wilfork was up for grabs? I'll answer this one, the Cleveland Browns.

We lusted after DJ Williams at the time we really did not need another LB.

Mikey has passed on a lot of DT's cause he could always pick up an old loser to get by with the past few years.

Whereas NE has almost prioritized one every other year, every third year at the worst.

What is scary is this team does not even have their best DT on the field yet in Richard Seymor.

lex
10-15-2007, 10:09 PM
We lusted after DJ Williams at the time we really did not need another LB.

Mikey has passed on a lot of DT's cause he could always pick up an old loser to get by with the past few years.

Whereas NE has almost prioritized one every other year, every third year at the worst.

What is scary is this team does not even have their best DT on the field yet in Richard Seymor.

Isnt Seymour a DE now? Either way, your points are solid. Its not just New England either. I think Russell Maryland was one of Dallas' first round draft picks in one of their drafts leading up to their SB years.

Lonestar
10-15-2007, 10:27 PM
Isnt Seymour a DE now? Either way, your points are solid. Its not just New England either. I think Russell Maryland was one of Dallas' first round draft picks in one of their drafts leading up to their SB years.

I think he is a DT

93 Richard Seymour DL 6-6 310 10/6/1979

http://www.nfl.com/teams/newenglandpatriots/roster?team=NE

Career GP/GS: 87/82 (12/10)
Seymour has earned a Pro Bowl berth in each of the past five seasons and is the only member of the Patriots to currently own a streak of multiple Pro Bowl seasons. His five Pro Bowl berths are the most by any Patriots defensive lineman since the 1970 AFL-NFL merger.
Seymour is the first Patriots defender since Andre Tippett (1984-88) to earn five straight Pro Bowl nods. He is the fifth player in team history to earn five straight Pro Bowl selections, joining John Hannah (eight straight from 1978-85), Mike Haynes (five straight from 1976-80), Ben Coates (five straight from 1994-98) and Tippett.
In 2006, Seymour was a captain on a Patriots defense that set a franchise record by allowing just 14.81 points per game. The defense allowed just 237 points, the fewest by any Patriots club over a 16-game season.
In 2005, Seymour was named a first-team All-Pro by the Associated Press for the third consecutive season. From the time he returned from an injury on Nov. 13, 2005, until the end of the regular season, the Patriots allowed just 14.8 points per game while recording a 6-2 record.
Seymour helped to anchor a dominating three-game defensive effort from Dec. 4-17, 2005, when the Patriots allowed just 10 total points over the three contests, setting a franchise record for the fewest points allowed over a three-game span.
Seymour was named a defensive captain by his teammates in 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2006.
Seymour scored his first career touchdown on a 68- yard fumble return to ice the Patriots' victory over Buffalo on Oct. 3, 2004. The fumble return was the longest in franchise history.
In 2004, Seymour was a co-captain on a Patriots defense that allowed 16.25 points per game, the second fewest in the NFL and the third fewest in franchise history.
Seymour finished second on the Patriots with a career-high 8.0 sacks in 2003, while also setting career highs with 79 tackles (45 solo) and 10 pass deflections.
Seymour earned his first Pro Bowl selection in 2002 and became the first Patriots defensive tackle ever selected and the first Patriots defensive lineman to be honored since Willie McGinest in 1996. Former Patriots defensive tackles Houston Antwine (6) and Jim Lee Hunt (4) both earned multiple trips to the AFL All-Star Game during their careers.
Seymour collected 5.5 sacks during the 2002 season and shared the team lead with Willie McGinest.
Seymour has blocked five field goals in his four-year career, including a block in the 2003 divisional playoffs (1/10/03). Seymour blocked two field goals during the 2002 regular season, becoming the first Patriot since Chad Eaton in 2000 to block two field goals in one season.
Intercepted the first pass of his career vs. Buffalo (12/8/02) and returned it six yards.
Seymour finished second among Patriots defensive lineman with 44 tackles (25 solos) during his rookie season in 2001.

lex
10-15-2007, 10:38 PM
I think he is a DT

93 Richard Seymour DL 6-6 310 10/6/1979

http://www.nfl.com/teams/newenglandpatriots/roster?team=NE

Career GP/GS: 87/82 (12/10)
Seymour has earned a Pro Bowl berth in each of the past five seasons and is the only member of the Patriots to currently own a streak of multiple Pro Bowl seasons. His five Pro Bowl berths are the most by any Patriots defensive lineman since the 1970 AFL-NFL merger.
Seymour is the first Patriots defender since Andre Tippett (1984-88) to earn five straight Pro Bowl nods. He is the fifth player in team history to earn five straight Pro Bowl selections, joining John Hannah (eight straight from 1978-85), Mike Haynes (five straight from 1976-80), Ben Coates (five straight from 1994-98) and Tippett.
In 2006, Seymour was a captain on a Patriots defense that set a franchise record by allowing just 14.81 points per game. The defense allowed just 237 points, the fewest by any Patriots club over a 16-game season.
In 2005, Seymour was named a first-team All-Pro by the Associated Press for the third consecutive season. From the time he returned from an injury on Nov. 13, 2005, until the end of the regular season, the Patriots allowed just 14.8 points per game while recording a 6-2 record.
Seymour helped to anchor a dominating three-game defensive effort from Dec. 4-17, 2005, when the Patriots allowed just 10 total points over the three contests, setting a franchise record for the fewest points allowed over a three-game span.
Seymour was named a defensive captain by his teammates in 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2006.
Seymour scored his first career touchdown on a 68- yard fumble return to ice the Patriots' victory over Buffalo on Oct. 3, 2004. The fumble return was the longest in franchise history.
In 2004, Seymour was a co-captain on a Patriots defense that allowed 16.25 points per game, the second fewest in the NFL and the third fewest in franchise history.
Seymour finished second on the Patriots with a career-high 8.0 sacks in 2003, while also setting career highs with 79 tackles (45 solo) and 10 pass deflections.
Seymour earned his first Pro Bowl selection in 2002 and became the first Patriots defensive tackle ever selected and the first Patriots defensive lineman to be honored since Willie McGinest in 1996. Former Patriots defensive tackles Houston Antwine (6) and Jim Lee Hunt (4) both earned multiple trips to the AFL All-Star Game during their careers.
Seymour collected 5.5 sacks during the 2002 season and shared the team lead with Willie McGinest.
Seymour has blocked five field goals in his four-year career, including a block in the 2003 divisional playoffs (1/10/03). Seymour blocked two field goals during the 2002 regular season, becoming the first Patriot since Chad Eaton in 2000 to block two field goals in one season.
Intercepted the first pass of his career vs. Buffalo (12/8/02) and returned it six yards.
Seymour finished second among Patriots defensive lineman with 44 tackles (25 solos) during his rookie season in 2001.

I think Wilfork plays DT now and Seymour plays RDE. I seem to remember that from hearing Jarvis Green will be playing RDE for Seymour.

omac
10-15-2007, 11:30 PM
I have to agree. I believe the Niners of the '80s would compete with the
Steelers of the '70s and Packers of the '60s as the G.O.A.T. dynasties in
football, and the mid-80s Niners as the G.O.A.T team.

What is really hard to swallow is that the Pats of the last decade are
threatening to join that crowd. :eviltongue:

-----

Well, I guess be comforted in knowing that the rule changes that protect the quarterbacks and wide receivers play a huge factor in the success of high passing teams like the Patriots. Looking at the stats of 80s quarterbacks, it's ridiculous to see the disparity in quarterback production today, and I'm pretty sure the difference will be even bigger when compared to the 70s. With different rules, this Patriots offense as we know it may not even exist, or may just have similar success as another high passing team, like the Oilers. The ones that would win Superbowls are running teams with great defenses, not high passing offenses with good defenses.

AFGAHNI_BATTLE_DONKEY
10-15-2007, 11:59 PM
winning the superbowl 3 out of 4 times would be a good start

topscribe
10-16-2007, 12:19 AM
We lusted after DJ Williams at the time we really did not need another LB.

Mikey has passed on a lot of DT's cause he could always pick up an old loser to get by with the past few years.

Whereas NE has almost prioritized one every other year, every third year at the worst.

What is scary is this team does not even have their best DT on the field yet in Richard Seymor.

Were it not for D.J. Williams, the Broncos would be in a bad way for LBs
now. So, had they gone for a DT instead of Williams, they would be good on
the DL, but hurting at LB. Sounds tit-for-tat to me.

-----

DenBronx
10-16-2007, 01:01 AM
it was never wrong to get williams...it was wrong to move him from the weakside though....he was a beast there.

id like us to get vilma and move dj back to weakside with vilma in the middle. now that would be scary.

sneakers
10-16-2007, 01:42 AM
winning the superbowl 3 out of 4 times would be a good start

Hahaha Awesome Name!!

Lonestar
10-16-2007, 03:13 AM
Were it not for D.J. Williams, the Broncos would be in a bad way for LBs
now. So, had they gone for a DT instead of Williams, they would be good on
the DL, but hurting at LB. Sounds tit-for-tat to me.

-----

LB's are a dime a dozen but great DT are really hard to find. You know in your heart, we can put almost any decent LB behind a great DL and they will look really good.

You can get lucky in the second to 4th round on LB's whereas after round two the DT and mostly DE's are not out there.

sneakers
10-16-2007, 05:10 AM
LB's are a dime a dozen but great DT are really hard to find. You know in your heart, we can put almost any decent LB behind a great DL and they will look really good.

You can get lucky in the second to 4th round on LB's whereas after round two the DT and mostly DE's are not out there.

I agree....a good d-linemen can make a linebacker be able to fly all over the field by tieing up blockers.

topscribe
10-16-2007, 10:04 AM
LB's are a dime a dozen but great DT are really hard to find. You know in your heart, we can put almost any decent LB behind a great DL and they will look really good.

You can get lucky in the second to 4th round on LB's whereas after round two the DT and mostly DE's are not out there.

I was playing devil's advocate there more than anything. You made a good
point. An example of that is the Pats themselves. Outside Thomas (who
himself seems a tad past his prime), their LBs seem pretty ordinary. However,
their DL is outrageously good. I could not believe what they did to Dallas . . .
minus Seymour! :shocked: Methinks about any group of LBs could look good
behind that bunch.

-----

Retired_Member_001
10-16-2007, 10:35 AM
I could not believe what they did to Dallas . . .
minus Seymour! :shocked: Methinks about any group of LBs could look good
behind that bunch.

-----

Your right, even Ian Gold would look good behind that defensive line.

Wait that's taking it abit too far. ;)

Medford Bronco
10-16-2007, 10:43 AM
Your right, even Ian Gold would look good behind that defensive line.

Wait that's taking it abit too far. ;)

I know you are kidding but, Ian Gold would be cut from the Patriots. bellicheck does not stand for poor play

btw Colvin is pretty good as well and so is Vrabel. Bruschi is ordinary now since his stroke in early 2005

NameUsedBefore
10-16-2007, 10:44 AM
Get a competent defensive line would be a good start.

Retired_Member_001
10-16-2007, 10:50 AM
I know you are kidding but, Ian Gold would be cut from the Patriots. bellicheck does not stand for poor play

btw Colvin is pretty good as well and so is Vrabel. Bruschi is ordinary now since his stroke in early 2005

Ian Gold wouldn't be just cut.

He would be banned from the state of Massachusetts all together.

eessydo
10-16-2007, 11:21 AM
I see the magic formula for both the Patriot's D and the Ravens D. Put big run stopping DT's up front to free up your aging, somewhat slow, but extremely intelligent LB's to make plays.

These are huge, oversized, young, strong DT's that command double teams and take up space. They control their gaps and ensure your DE's and LB's are working one on one on the edge or running free up the middle at the QB or RB.

The only undersized DT doing anything in the NFL right now is Amobe Okoye, and he is just so lightening fast that he gets penetration into the gaps.

Baltimore has Kelly Gregg and Haloti Ngata
New England has Vince Wilfork

Denver has Sam Adams and Amon Gordon??? Old and below average????

I am also not a proponent of Kris Jenkins, He is past his prime and has been injured far too much to ever consider that kind of move. Haynesworth MAY be worth the money at this point, but something tells me when you pay that guy the money, he will get lazy. I think this is just him elevating his play in his contract year. Not enough consistency to make me a believer, but he is still young, and DT's get beat up in the middle.

I think if we resolved this DT issue, we could then start addressing whether or not our LB's and DE's need upgrading. I think the DT problem puts a multiplier on our LB/DE issues. While justified I think it is possibly not as bad as we all think at this point.

:defense::ahhhhh:

Lonestar
10-16-2007, 12:00 PM
I was playing devil's advocate there more than anything. You made a good
point. An example of that is the Pats themselves. Outside Thomas (who
himself seems a tad past his prime), their LBs seem pretty ordinary. However,
their DL is outrageously good. I could not believe what they did to Dallas . . .
minus Seymour! :shocked: Methinks about any group of LBs could look good
behind that bunch.
-----

Lets qualify that remark and say any good tackling LB can almost be an all pro behind that DLine.

Conversely almost any good QB or RB can be great behind a great OLINE.

I have been yelling at the TOP of my lungs for years about it being won or lost AT the LOS.

However Mikey does not listen...

Lonestar
10-16-2007, 12:06 PM
I think Wilfork plays DT now and Seymour plays RDE. I seem to remember that from hearing Jarvis Green will be playing RDE for Seymour.


I'd lust after a 310 6'6" DE right about now He did play DT until Wilfork came along. In there Defense it is hard to pin down who plays where.

They are the best coached and playing defense in the league IMHO. Mostly becasue of the Dline. They can get away with good LB's and medicore DB's.

Medford Bronco
10-16-2007, 12:10 PM
I'd lust after a 310 6'6" DE right about now He did play DT until Wilfork came along. In there Defense it is hard to pin down who plays where.

They are the best coached and playing defense in the league IMHO. Mostly becasue of the Dline. They can get away with good LB's and medicore DB's.

Kinda the inverse of us. Good secondary, decent Lbs and a pathetic d line :tsk:

Lonestar
10-16-2007, 12:17 PM
I see the magic formula for both the Patriot's D and the Ravens D. Put big run stopping DT's up front to free up your aging, somewhat slow, but extremely intelligent LB's to make plays.

These are huge, oversized, young, strong DT's that command double teams and take up space. They control their gaps and ensure your DE's and LB's are working one on one on the edge or running free up the middle at the QB or RB.

The only undersized DT doing anything in the NFL right now is Amobe Okoye, and he is just so lightening fast that he gets penetration into the gaps.

Baltimore has Kelly Gregg and Haloti Ngata
New England has Vince Wilfork

Denver has Sam Adams and Amon Gordon??? Old and below average????

I am also not a proponent of Kris Jenkins, He is past his prime and has been injured far too much to ever consider that kind of move. Haynesworth MAY be worth the money at this point, but something tells me when you pay that guy the money, he will get lazy. I think this is just him elevating his play in his contract year. Not enough consistency to make me a believer, but he is still young, and DT's get beat up in the middle.

I think if we resolved this DT issue, we could then start addressing whether or not our LB's and DE's need upgrading. I think the DT problem puts a multiplier on our LB/DE issues. While justified I think it is possibly not as bad as we all think at this point.

:defense::ahhhhh:

Your right on the money here and Mickey has ignored the problem for ever in the Draft and few minor picks 6-8 years ago and then he started picking up aging vets to get a year or two out of them. Until the Brownco fiasco.

We (ALL THE FANS) knew in 2003 when we got killed by Manning the first time int eh playoffs that we had NO pass rush to force Manning to make mistakes and for him to pass the ball at his leisure is a disaster for any one playing him.

Finally Bates has forced the issues, in getting some beef on the LOS. Yet I still fail to understand the reasons for letting both warrren and kennedy go until they had been adequately replaced Via the draft next year. Even with a bad attitude they would be a bigger contributor IMHO than the wimps we have right now.

Lonestar
10-16-2007, 12:18 PM
Kinda the inverse of us. Good secondary, decent Lbs and a pathetic d line :tsk:

formula for failure it's been proven time and again now since 2003 and Manning taking us apart in the playoffs.

eessydo
10-16-2007, 01:02 PM
We (ALL THE FANS) knew in 2003 when we got killed by Manning the first time int eh playoffs that we had NO pass rush to force Manning to make mistakes and for him to pass the ball at his leisure is a disaster for any one playing him.


I wish this was the case, last year I was ridiculed for saying our defense was over rated through the first few games of the season when we broke that obscure NFL record for no touchdowns allowed through however many consecutive quarters. In game one I could see our D-Line had some major issues putting pressure on the QB, as we looked like the Ray Rhodes "bend don't break" defense of old. We just were not exposed due to overachieving linebacker and DB play through those first few games.

Viewing the big picture is something most fans have little time for and look only at the results. Peel back the layers and over time you can see truly see what is in the core.

Lonestar
10-16-2007, 01:34 PM
I wish this was the case, last year I was ridiculed for saying our defense was over rated through the first few games of the season when we broke that obscure NFL record for no touchdowns allowed through however many consecutive quarters. In game one I could see our D-Line had some major issues putting pressure on the QB, as we looked like the Ray Rhodes "bend don't break" defense of old. We just were not exposed due to overachieving linebacker and DB play through those first few games.

Viewing the big picture is something most fans have little time for and look only at the results. Peel back the layers and over time you can see truly see what is in the core.


Your wise beyond your years.

We have not been great on first day drafts at picking up talent other than LB's


1995 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
4 124 Ken Brown LB Virginia Tech
5 146 Phil Yeboah-Kodie LB Penn State

When that did not work out so good.

1996 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 15 John Mobley OLB Kutztown

1999 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 31 Al Wilson MLB Tennessee

2000 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
2 40 Ian Gold LB Michigan

2003 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
2 51 Terry Pierce LB Kansas State an insurance pick only

2004 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 17 D.J. Williams OLB Miami (Fla.)

Five top round LB choices over a 10-11 year period.

Almost nothing on day one for DL, except a couple DEs none of which panned put or played with DEN past the first contract and that almost includes price cause he was a force until he signed a FAT contract and was heard from seldom after that.

lex
10-16-2007, 04:51 PM
I'd lust after a 310 6'6" DE right about now He did play DT until Wilfork came along. In there Defense it is hard to pin down who plays where.

They are the best coached and playing defense in the league IMHO. Mostly becasue of the Dline. They can get away with good LB's and medicore DB's.

Kind of creepy.

Lonestar
10-16-2007, 10:58 PM
Kind of creepy.

But a FACT of LIFE

SM19
10-17-2007, 09:51 AM
Vince Wilfork. Seriously.