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View Full Version : The 4 plays of mike mccoy- Mccoy backers prove me wrong.



underrated29
01-27-2012, 10:46 PM
Mike mccoy sucks blah blah blah we have all been over this time and time again. However, I keep asking the question and people dont see the post or ignore it or whatever. So here we go.


I say mccoy blows at OC...I say he is terrible and the games we play well in are due to play calling being good and Not execution as mccoy backers claim.

Lets use the Pitts game as an example as it should be the freshest. We did well in this game with PA boots, worked great! No RB screens that I remember, but we did have a WR screen, so its a plus. Here is the task mccoy fan boys- I have griped all year long about RB screens and PA boots and other things to get the pocket moving and help negate teams teeing off on tebow because we only run Go routes.

Give me 10 plays- out of all the plays this year with tebow at QB that we called:


1- RB screen
2-Play action boot
*edit- adding WR screen to list- hell I will make it easy- just give me 5 combined wr and rb plays this year

Thats it. 5 plays of each, we ran tons and tons of plays on offense this year. If mccoy is so good as you all claim this should be easy to do and I will shut the hell up.


And as for the fact that mccoy boys claim "Well, tebow cant throw a RB screen" or whatever. Well, I have the stats and plays that shove that theory right up the butt.


I shall patently await reply.

MOtorboat
01-27-2012, 10:55 PM
I have absolutely zero clue what you are asking.

Dapper Dan
01-27-2012, 10:57 PM
My only issue is that every single 3rd and long feels like its always a draw. I know Tebow isn't Tom Brady. But at some point you have to try passing.

underrated29
01-27-2012, 11:03 PM
I am asking for people to show me 5 plays of each. From the time tebow became QB this year- the last game of regular season. What is that 11 games to work with?


5- plays of a Screen
5- plays of a PA boot


A constant thing that goes around is that mccoy is calling the same plays, or that they were the same plays in pitts game as they were all season, only we executed.

I have been saying the opposite. I have said Mccoy only knows 4 plays. 1. the run. 2. the option. 3. the go routes on 3rd and long. 4. the pa pass with go routes.

All year I have been screaming for screens, PA boots, quick slants/ crosses and anything at all in the middle of the field where everything is wide open. I think mccoy sucks because he only knows 4 plays and wont call anything else, like what I have suggested. And once again people keep claiming that he is good or Has called the same plays all year long and its tebow that is dragging the offense (not saying he isnt a part of it, but this is about mccoy not tebow) instead of mccoy failing to put tebow in proper situations.

Did that clear things up better?

MOtorboat
01-27-2012, 11:10 PM
This proves nothing.

He called a screen against Buffalo and Tebow took a sack which gave the momentum to Buffalo and essentially completely altered the game. That's on Tebow, not McCoy. And you wonder why screens weren't called...

MOtorboat
01-27-2012, 11:11 PM
The reason the play calling was so conservative was Tebow, not McCoy.

underrated29
01-27-2012, 11:13 PM
This proves nothing.

He called a screen against Buffalo and Tebow took a sack which gave the momentum to Buffalo and essentially completely altered the game. That's on Tebow, not McCoy. And you wonder why screens weren't called...


It proves mccoy sucks at playcalling. Screens negate all out blitzes which we saw all too often. Every Qb has thrown a bad screen or had one picked off or fumble sacked (and even returned for a score).


Oh and he also called one this year and Knowshon took it 32 yards to the house. I guess, thats all mccoy and not tebow. So I still wonder why screens arent called.

or last year with buckhalter who took a screen in for the score. I do wonder why more arent called.

underrated29
01-27-2012, 11:15 PM
The reason the play calling was so conservative was Tebow, not McCoy.



And to an extent I certainly agree. 100%


But we still Never called screens or PA boots, those would have helped Tebow and the O tremendously! We know Tebow can run them. We have evidence from last year, like 2 plays this year and his college days.


Its not ok. He needs to be better, and more imaginative.

MOtorboat
01-27-2012, 11:15 PM
It proves mccoy sucks at playcalling. Screens negate all out blitzes which we saw all too often. Every Qb has thrown a bad screen or had one picked off or fumble sacked (and even returned for a score).


Oh and he also called one this year and Knowshon took it 32 yards to the house. I guess, thats all mccoy and not tebow. So I still wonder why screens arent called.

or last year with buckhalter who took a screen in for the score. I do wonder why more arent called.

So, now you're giving credit to Tebow for the screen called by McCoy and executed by Moreno?

Wow.

And this still proves nothing.

underrated29
01-27-2012, 11:18 PM
So, now you're giving credit to Tebow for the screen called by McCoy and executed by Moreno?

Wow.

And this still proves nothing.


No, I am doing the exact opposite you said to me. Tebow nothing mccoy everything.

It proves, that mccoy sucks. He has no iimagination and only knows 4 plays. Every team uses the screen to slow the blitz. Everyone knows that.


oh and lets not forget the game winning OT td. Mccoy said he drew that play up at halftime!

All game I was screaming for that play, it is even time stamped in the gameday thread! I was calling for it before halftime. I even called that exact play in OT. I mean, we are arm chair fans here, not paid (millions of dollars) professionals and yet I have plays in my playbook before he does? And I can call the exact play he is going to do in OT.

Unimaginative and predictable. What other evidence is need to show that mccoy is terrible? What more would it take?

Slick
01-27-2012, 11:20 PM
I don't think Tebow executed enough plays well in practice to give McCoy confidence to call a wider variety of plays in games.

Tebow wasnt very good at excecuting very many plays the way they were drawn up. There was a lot of sandlot football played.

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

MOtorboat
01-27-2012, 11:21 PM
I don't think Tebow executed enough plays well in practice to give McCoy confidence to call a wider variety of plays in games.

Tebow wasnt very good at excecuting very many plays the way they were drawn up. There was a lot of sandlot football played.

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Which makes it hard to criticize McCoy.

I'm still not sure what the purpose of this thread is...

underrated29
01-27-2012, 11:32 PM
on the same token none of us where at practice so it makes it hard to give him a pass that way.



The purpose of the thread is so simple. People said they were the same plays, I proved it wrong. People say hes good, yet I can do just as good (and I suck)




How can any team (not just broncos) not adjust ever to teams blitzing the crap out of them and calling go routes. That is bad.

Why would we want an OC who wont call screens?
Why would we want an OC who wont even touch into Tebows potential with PA boots?
Why would we want an OC who calls our slowest developing run-trap play on 1st and 10 from our own half inch yardline? Esp, when we have arguable the most physical best power running QB in the nfl
How can we like Mccoy or think he does well when all of this is present?
How can we want mccoy when he is Soooooooooo predictable?
How does us never passing short, timing, crossing, slants help tebow growth?
How does this dictate what we want to do or keep the defense guessing?



I have seen so very few positives from Mccoy it is almost mind boggling. I mean really how can anyone like what he has done and say yes its good.

Convalesce
01-28-2012, 12:41 AM
This reminds me of a Hue Jackson thread started back when Jason Campbell went down.

McCoy may not be the greatest, but he had Tebow to work with, a RB at the QB position. He would make a few good throws (yet some have to wonder if it was him making a good throw of the WR making one hell of a catch. I think a little of both at different times.)

But when Jason Campbell went down, we had to throw in Kyle Boller (My god...never...NEVER...again...) Hue Jackson's play-calling got dumbed down, a lot. 'Cause Boller threw 3 picks, then Palmer came in and threw 3 picks in the same game vs. Kansas City.

For the next few weeks, offense looked really dull. We weren't taking chances like we were used to with Jason Campbell in, and if we did - it ended terribly most of the time.

Coaches design certain plays knowing who they have, and when there is a QB change during the season when you don't expect it, it makes for a lesser offensive standpoint.

I don't know all too much about McCoy, but I also know a lot of Denver fans don't like him and a lot of Denver fans do.

I was just giving my 2 cents 'cause I'm pretty damn bored and there is not much I haven't commented on the Raider Forum.

silkamilkamonico
01-28-2012, 03:17 AM
McCoy+Tebow+Fox=a very conservative, unexplosive, inabiity to put points on the board offense.

bcbronc
01-28-2012, 04:14 AM
I have been saying the opposite. I have said Mccoy only knows 4 plays. 1. the run. 2. the option. 3. the go routes on 3rd and long. 4. the pa pass with go routes.



lol, when did "the run" become 1 play? And we don't run go routes, we run stop and go's. :lol:



Oh and he also called one this year and Knowshon took it 32 yards to the house. I guess, thats all mccoy and not tebow. So I still wonder why screens arent called.

or last year with buckhalter who took a screen in for the score. I do wonder why more arent called.

Maybe McCoy didn't feel comfortable with the RBs after Moreno went down? All I know for sure, it had nothing to do with Tebow. Not enough screens cost us the damn Superbowl.

Northman
01-28-2012, 07:35 AM
McCoy may not be the greatest, but he had Tebow to work with, a RB at the QB position.

/thread

Its not rocket science. Both McCoy and Tebow are extremely average at their respective positions.

FlyByU
01-28-2012, 03:52 PM
McCoy is the McDaniel's of OC's he should have been fired already and the village idiot hired to do the play calling because McStuipid cannot call good games consistently. He needs to go to a pee wee league and he would fit in there more then the NFL.

End Rant.

underrated29
01-28-2012, 05:58 PM
Very nice.

catfish
01-28-2012, 06:33 PM
one that sticks out in my mind is the screen in our own endzone to royal in the jets game. I remember thinking it was a ballsy play.

statistically they threw 12% of the overall passes behind the line completed 75% for 4ypa.

By the numbers they didn't throw more because it was more productive to run the ball. Most likely a result of more men on the line of scrimmage/tight man coverage causing the screen to not be especially useful for anything other than increasing tebows comp%.

the perception that they didn't run it because Tebow couldn't execute it would also be flawed looking at just the numbers

MOtorboat
01-28-2012, 06:39 PM
one that sticks out in my mind is the screen in our own endzone to royal in the jets game. I remember thinking it was a ballsy play.

statistically they threw 12% of the overall passes behind the line completed 75% for 4ypa.

By the numbers they didn't throw more because it was more productive to run the ball. Most likely a result of more men on the line of scrimmage/tight man coverage causing the screen to not be especially useful for anything other than increasing tebows comp%.

the perception that they didn't run it because Tebow couldn't execute it would also be flawed looking at just the numbers

Not sure how you came to your final conclusion. Is 12 percent higher than league average?

catfish
01-28-2012, 06:43 PM
Not sure how you came to your final conclusion. Is 12 percent higher than league average?

no, it was the 75% completion rate. If he couldn't execute the play I would expect the % to be out of line with other qb's. The plays he struggles to complete are 11-20 yards

edit: for context Hasselbeck(16th by passer rating"mr average") completed 76.2% for 4.1 ypa at that same range

MOtorboat
01-28-2012, 06:45 PM
no, it was the 75% completion rate. If he couldn't execute the play I would expect the % to be out of line with other qb's. The plays he struggles to complete are 11-20 yards

So is 75 percent completion behind the line of scrimmage above or below league average?

catfish
01-28-2012, 06:48 PM
So is 75 percent completion behind the line of scrimmage above or below league average?

using hasselbeck as an average qb(16th in passer rating)it is about average, really all his comp% numbers are at or near average with the exception of 11-20 yards range, which is quite a bit lower than average.

edit: using the other 2nd year QBS as a measuring stick Tebows numbers are pretty comparable. (McCoy is the best of the three)

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/13197/sam-bradford

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/13200/tim-tebow

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/13199/colt-mccoy

while Tebow needs to improve his completion % a little from 1-10 yards, and a lot from 11-20 yards a large part of his overall completion% issues are because he is attempting % wise a higher number of long passes. The longer the pass the lower the completion% is true across the board for all qb's

without any improvement of his current completion rates per distance at all just attempting the same types of passes mccoy did would raise Tebow's completion rate to 53%. It is one of the reasons I am not so keen on comp% as a stat for measurement on a QB. If you want to use split completion% then you have a pretty good stat for measurement

catfish
01-28-2012, 07:24 PM
as a follow up McCoy threw 13% of his passes behind the LOS and Bradford was 12%...perhaps the lack of screen passes is a matter of perception rather than fact?

you could make a case for lack of passes from 1-10 yds

HORSEPOWER 56
01-29-2012, 09:26 AM
I give a lot of credit to McCoy in altering the offense to accommodate Tebow and his skill set. No, McCoy isn't the same type of offensive guru that say Shanahan is in designing an offense specifically for a mobile QB who throws better outside the pocket than inside.

To compensate for our mostly lack-luster passing game, we ran the ball a lot, particularly on 1st down. The idea was to shorten up 2nd and 3rd downs to still have the run as an option. Tebow, the O-line, and the WRs ALL played a factor in what we did offensively in the passing game.

McCoy converted the offense from a mostly short passing game with the run sprinkled in (NE style) that we played with Orton to a run first, run often, then take shots down the field one with Tebow. He made the offense much more conservative, easier for his young players to understand, much safer in play design, but unfortunately for us fans - much more predictable. He knew our O-line run blocked much better than it pass blocked, our WRs were much less likely to make mistakes running deep routes than they were running short "option" type of routes, and that the reads for Tebow and the likelyhood of a turnover on a deep pass was less likely and less costly (typically, a deep pass that is intercepted is more like a punt whereas a short one gives up valuable FP and can lead to points). Tebow could read if there was a Safety over the top and if not, just chuck it up for the WR. If there was a Safety, he could just throw it away.

I thought McCoy did a pretty decent job with the players he was handed. Obviously, the rest of the league thought so too, or he wouldn't have gotten HC interviews.

The only thing I really question is why he didn't give the offense some more "confidence" throws. Screens, quick passes, check downs, etc. Boots and designed rollouts typically help a young QB and O-line, but we didn't utilize them as much as we could've.

I'm going to reserve my judgement until the end of the upcoming season. Knowing the pieces we'll have (post FA and the draft of course) and having an offseason to really develop the squad and build chemistry should lead to improvement in all facets of the offense. If it doesn't and if we regress on offense, it will be time to look elsewhere.

arapaho2
01-29-2012, 01:30 PM
I give a lot of credit to McCoy in altering the offense to accommodate Tebow and his skill set. No, McCoy isn't the same type of offensive guru that say Shanahan is in designing an offense specifically for a mobile QB who throws better outside the pocket than inside.

To compensate for our mostly lack-luster passing game, we ran the ball a lot, particularly on 1st down. The idea was to shorten up 2nd and 3rd downs to still have the run as an option. Tebow, the O-line, and the WRs ALL played a factor in what we did offensively in the passing game.

McCoy converted the offense from a mostly short passing game with the run sprinkled in (NE style) that we played with Orton to a run first, run often, then take shots down the field one with Tebow. He made the offense much more conservative, easier for his young players to understand, much safer in play design, but unfortunately for us fans - much more predictable. He knew our O-line run blocked much better than it pass blocked, our WRs were much less likely to make mistakes running deep routes than they were running short "option" type of routes, and that the reads for Tebow and the likelyhood of a turnover on a deep pass was less likely and less costly (typically, a deep pass that is intercepted is more like a punt whereas a short one gives up valuable FP and can lead to points). Tebow could read if there was a Safety over the top and if not, just chuck it up for the WR. If there was a Safety, he could just throw it away.

I thought McCoy did a pretty decent job with the players he was handed. Obviously, the rest of the league thought so too, or he wouldn't have gotten HC interviews.

The only thing I really question is why he didn't give the offense some more "confidence" throws. Screens, quick passes, check downs, etc. Boots and designed rollouts typically help a young QB and O-line, but we didn't utilize them as much as we could've.

I'm going to reserve my judgement until the end of the upcoming season. Knowing the pieces we'll have (post FA and the draft of course) and having an offseason to really develop the squad and build chemistry should lead to improvement in all facets of the offense. If it doesn't and if we regress on offense, it will be time to look elsewhere.

i agree with your pos....but im gonna go a bit further

i agree that a these confindence throws were needed....and not thrown enough....in fact take a solid vet in brees and a rookie like dalton and compare them to tim

pass attempts ....behind the oline

tebow,...32.... percentage of total attempts....12%

brees.....125..................................... .........19%

dalton.....92..................................... .........18%

pass attempts behind the line out to ten yards

tebow......127....percentage of total attempts....47%

brees.......438................................... ............66.7%

dalton......357................................... ............69%

so we can see what your saying is true... we just throw enough high % passes

my other issue is the predictability....we cant be a run run run punt team....whether its traditional or read option....we got to mix in some passes early and often to keep a def guesssing

when your running on 1st down 90%+ of the time....not matter what the reasoning....your offense is PREDICTABLE

Ravage!!!
01-29-2012, 02:15 PM
This doesn't prove squat. Its not the thread that completely falls on it face, it's the topic. It completely fails. Its looking for excuses.

Ravage!!!
01-29-2012, 02:18 PM
edit: using the other 2nd year QBS as a measuring stick Tebows numbers are
while Tebow needs to improve his completion % a little from 1-10 yards, and a lot from 11-20 yards a large part of his overall completion% issues are because he is attempting % wise a higher number of long passes. The longer the pass the lower the completion% is true across the board for all qb's



The problem you are not considering..is that the reason Tebow threw so many deep routes were not only his choice...but because its the safest pass in the game. You either hit the receiver, or it goes out of bounds/past the defender. Tebow not only felt comfortable with that choice, but because Tim is a bad passer...it was comfortable for the coaches.

SO yeah.. Tim... chuck that ball long. Throw it deep enough that it doesn't flutter up and get picked off.

Again. Thats calling plays (as well as Tim choosing the routes) that are best for Tim and his talents. I bet the coaches would LOVE to call more crosses across the middle and slants to the inside.

catfish
01-29-2012, 04:06 PM
The problem you are not considering..is that the reason Tebow threw so many deep routes were not only his choice...but because its the safest pass in the game. You either hit the receiver, or it goes out of bounds/past the defender. Tebow not only felt comfortable with that choice, but because Tim is a bad passer...it was comfortable for the coaches.

SO yeah.. Tim... chuck that ball long. Throw it deep enough that it doesn't flutter up and get picked off.

Again. Thats calling plays (as well as Tim choosing the routes) that are best for Tim and his talents. I bet the coaches would LOVE to call more crosses across the middle and slants to the inside.

by the number Tebow executed at or near the same completion % as his peers in all but the 11-20 yard distance. The 1-10 yard distance is somewhat lower than McCoy or Bradford but not signifigantly. So why people keep saying they didn't call plays because he couldn't execute them is beyond me. The numbers actually indicate the opposite is true. I have already shown that attempting the same type of passes as McCoy would have raised his completion% to a low, but more acceptable #. He didn't have an INT problem, so what other than a "eyeball test" tells you that he couldn't execute and that is why they didn't run the plays.

More likely they didn't run the plays to take advantage of longer gains available due to tight man coverage and the fact that the line was stacked so receivers need to go 8-10 yards to clear traffic at the line and seperate from coverage. I personally dont really take much offense to the types of passes that were called, more when they were called. They called almost as many passes in the 4th quarter and OT as they did in the other 3 quarters combined

edit: as to passes in the middle of the field, Tebows best completion% and best qb rating were to the middle of the field followed closely by left parts of the field. to the right side the numbers drop, and to either sideline they drop even further. So if you want to say they called the type of passes they did because they are lower risk, I would agree with you, but it most likely wasn't a result of execution of the QB, and more likely the result of an offense that was designed around ball control, wining the field position battle and putting themselves in a spot to win it by a field goal at the end.

underrated29
01-29-2012, 04:20 PM
And how many of those passes were tosses and option passes.


There is no excuse. NO ONE can name 5 plays of screens since tebow took over this year.
No one can name 5 plays of PA boots.


I can name those plays for just about any team in the league, and I bet i could easily research them. Fact is, it cant be done for our team.



Mccoy sucks. He sucks so bad. I just dont know how this is not evident to most everyone. I was saying it before the season even started. If you forget the whole tebow cant throw, you see how terrible he is.

bcbronc
01-29-2012, 04:23 PM
i agree with your pos....but im gonna go a bit further

i agree that a these confindence throws were needed....and not thrown enough....in fact take a solid vet in brees and a rookie like dalton and compare them to tim

pass attempts ....behind the oline

tebow,...32.... percentage of total attempts....12%

brees.....125..................................... .........19%

dalton.....92..................................... .........18%

pass attempts behind the line out to ten yards

tebow......127....percentage of total attempts....47%

brees.......438................................... ............66.7%

dalton......357................................... ............69%

so we can see what your saying is true... we just throw enough high % passes

my other issue is the predictability....we cant be a run run run punt team....whether its traditional or read option....we got to mix in some passes early and often to keep a def guesssing

when your running on 1st down 90%+ of the time....not matter what the reasoning....your offense is PREDICTABLE

How much of that is because Brees and Dalton use their check downs? At least some of it.

MOtorboat
01-29-2012, 04:37 PM
And how many of those passes were tosses and option passes.


There is no excuse. NO ONE can name 5 plays of screens since tebow took over this year.
No one can name 5 plays of PA boots.


I can name those plays for just about any team in the league, and I bet i could easily research them. Fact is, it cant be done for our team.



Mccoy sucks. He sucks so bad. I just dont know how this is not evident to most everyone. I was saying it before the season even started. If you forget the whole tebow cant throw, you see how terrible he is.

I'm so confused by this. Are you asking people to tell you when he called the screens (because he did) or are you saying five types of screens? I'm utterly confused by this...

The plays aren't memorable because they didn't work. That doesn't mean they didn't happen...

arapaho2
01-29-2012, 04:51 PM
The problem you are not considering..is that the reason Tebow threw so many deep routes were not only his choice...but because its the safest pass in the game. You either hit the receiver, or it goes out of bounds/past the defender. Tebow not only felt comfortable with that choice, but because Tim is a bad passer...it was comfortable for the coaches.

SO yeah.. Tim... chuck that ball long. Throw it deep enough that it doesn't flutter up and get picked off.

Again. Thats calling plays (as well as Tim choosing the routes) that are best for Tim and his talents. I bet the coaches would LOVE to call more crosses across the middle and slants to the inside.


You know rav you have had a hate list on tebow since he came

we all know college is not the pros...we all know college doesnt reflect the pros

but to continue to sit here and simply say tebow cannot pass or was the reason we were so limited is assinine

in his read option offense in college he had a career 66.4%

higher than bradys, rodgers, rivers, brees, or mannings....dont tell me he cant pass

as per the deep ball being the safest and easiest pass...what are you smoking?:lol:

there is alot more to reading a defense deep than just looking at he safety..it starts before the snap upon seeing what coverage is

consider brady

behind the line to 10 yards....1int per 103 attempts
rest of the field...................1 int per 24.3 attempts

brees....1 int per 87 attempts behind the line to 10 yards
rest of the field............1 int per 24.2 attempts


now doesnt it appear that the easiest safest pass is the quick hit, screeen, wr screen, slant, check down?...and not the deep ball?

arapaho2
01-29-2012, 04:55 PM
How much of that is because Brees and Dalton use their check downs? At least some of it.


how many times is there a checkdown? most of the time our back or te is blocking ....right?

true i seen him miss a couple rbs in a crossing pattern or what would have been his final read or safety valve....but not nearly enough to effect the total stats

catfish
01-29-2012, 04:58 PM
I'm so confused by this. Are you asking people to tell you when he called the screens (because he did) or are you saying five types of screens? I'm utterly confused by this...

The plays aren't memorable because they didn't work. That doesn't mean they didn't happen...

Off the top of my head, I remember Royal in the Jets game, Didn't moreno go down on a screen pass? I think we had a good one called back due to illegal blocking downfield, one of the touchdowns in the Miami game. I don't remember every one, but there were over 200 passes so the fact that I remember that many means there were probably more that were less impactful than those so they didn't stand out. They were called.

McCoy was dealing with installing a brand new Offensive scheme with a young inexperienced offense at really all positions, I think there are several issues that led to a somewhat stagnant offense Youth, Fox conservative scheme, poor execution by Tebow at times, poor execution by the WR at times, poor execution by the line at times. Really the only consistent player was Mcgahee, and that was when he wasn't nicked up. I think McCoy did the best anyone could do given the circumstances he found himself in. He deserves to show what he can do after an offseason of the younger players playing together.

arapaho2
01-29-2012, 04:58 PM
I'm so confused by this. Are you asking people to tell you when he called the screens (because he did) or are you saying five types of screens? I'm utterly confused by this...

The plays aren't memorable because they didn't work. That doesn't mean they didn't happen...


simple really....i think what he's saying is


how many rb screens...failed or succesful were called

how many wr screens...

how many play action boots did we run during thge course of the season with tebow?

savvey?

catfish
01-29-2012, 05:01 PM
How much of that is because Brees and Dalton use their check downs? At least some of it.

It absolutely is a part of it, and in reality is a big part of what Tebow needs to work on, but all in all I would much rather the problem be he needs to attempt more short passes/see the checkdown vs. he is 15% below average at all distances. Much easier to coach the checkdown. I assume when they are coaching timing/footwork they will work on the checkdown clock

catfish
01-29-2012, 05:03 PM
if people are really interested these guys tracked and wrote up every pass this year

http://eye-on-football.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/view/22475988/1?mcctag=Tracking%20Tebow

MOtorboat
01-29-2012, 05:06 PM
simple really....i think what he's saying is


how many rb screens...failed or succesful were called

how many wr screens...

how many play action boots did we run during thge course of the season with tebow?

savvey?

Probably not as many as other teams, but they were called.

As to your "assinine" comment...to think Tebow's lack of timing, good footwork and ability to read the defense wasn't the main reason why the offense was called the way it was, is wrong.

catfish
01-29-2012, 05:08 PM
Probably not as many as other teams, but they were called.

As to your "assinine" comment...to think Tebow's lack of timing, good footwork and ability to read the defense wasn't the main reason why the offense was called the way it was, is wrong.

I am curious as to what you base your info on?

MOtorboat
01-29-2012, 05:10 PM
I am curious as to what you base your info on?

Watching the game.

If I were an offensive coordinator, I would have called it the exact same way.

underrated29
01-29-2012, 05:10 PM
simple really....i think what he's saying is


how many rb screens...failed or succesful were called

how many wr screens...

how many play action boots did we run during thge course of the season with tebow?

savvey?




Pretty mcuh this.

I can name exact plays from the saints, texans, raiders, chargers, giants, pats, ravens and a few others if I thought about it.


But the broncos I can only think of the knowshon screen for a td, and the one we tried that was either picked off or almost picked off.

The screen negates and is the perfect play to be called when there is a blitz. But we never did it and tebow got killed. I mean, if everyteam runs screens, successful or not and we do not? and we have no counter for the blitz, nothing. Its bad. But then there is teh PA boot, and half a dozen other types of plays to take advantage of the defense.



So basically once again. Can you name 5 screen plays to the RB since tebow took over this year, successful or not? I can only come up with 2.

catfish
01-29-2012, 05:12 PM
Watching the game.

If I were an offensive coordinator, I would have called it the exact same way.

my only warning to that is that the eyes often see what they want to see, it is always best to try to check your impressions against the numbers

MOtorboat
01-29-2012, 05:18 PM
my only warning to that is that the eyes often see what they want to see, it is always best to try to check your impressions against the numbers

Which numbers? I can manipulate any number you want me to. You're choosing to manipulate the completion percentage on short throws to show more screens should have been called. I'd manipulate the overall completion percentage to show that as a coordinator you play percentages and if you're quarterback can't throw over 50 percent complete, you run the ball.

The eye test simply showed me that he cannot consistently make the throws needed to be made to operate the offense so many people want McCoy to call.

Tebow's inability to read defenses well enough, his lack of getting rid of the ball with timing and his unwillingness to throw into tight windows, is the reason slants and screens and crossing patterns weren't called more. That IS the reason McCoy called the offense the way he did. For some reason, it's really hard to get that through to people.

arapaho2
01-29-2012, 05:19 PM
Probably not as many as other teams, but they were called.

As to your "assinine" comment...to think Tebow's lack of timing, good footwork and ability to read the defense wasn't the main reason why the offense was called the way it was, is wrong.



whats to time on a wr bubble screeen ?....look...if the dbs are off...take the snap and throw the ball

whats to time on a quick in slant if the dbs are playing off the wr?...read the defense...take the snap, throw the ball

in case your not getting it...timeing isnt as important in the quick shallow game as it would be in the deeper outs, curls or backside shoulder throws

MOtorboat
01-29-2012, 05:23 PM
whats to time on a wr bubble screeen ?....look...if the dbs are off...take the snap and throw the ball

whats to time on a quick in slant if the dbs are playing off the wr?...read the defense...take the snap, throw the ball

in case your not getting it...timeing isnt as important in the quick shallow game as it would be in the deeper outs, curls or backside shoulder throws

Timing isn't important on a slant or a cross or a curl? Really?

And the quick screen. That's not a "called" play by the coordinator. That's a quarterback decision on a pre-snap read.

Denver Native (Carol)
01-29-2012, 05:36 PM
from article:


McCoy designed some very shrewd routes against the Steelers’ coverages. Instead of going with the tight bunches and myriad crossing patterns that most coaches use to beat man coverage, he went with a barrage of outside fly routes. Those patterns ensured one-on-one coverage – as safety help is irrelevant outside in man coverage – and allowed Tebow to heave the ball downfield rather than make precise, timing-based throws to moving targets through tight windows. When McCoy did go to crossing routes, he put in wrinkles like fly patterns up the seams off the crosses or deep hooks on the outside. The idea was to use Troy Polamalu’s aggressive decision-making against him. It worked masterfully.

full article - http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/09/how-tebow-and-his-helpers-beat-man-coverage/

arapaho2
01-29-2012, 05:37 PM
Timing isn't important on a slant or a cross or a curl? Really?

And the quick screen. That's not a "called" play by the coordinator. That's a quarterback decision on a pre-snap read.


where did i say that?....or is it you just digest what you want and ignore the rest?

i said timing isnt as important in the quick hits, bubble sscreens, quick slants AS IT IS IN THE DEEPER PASSES LIKE CURLS AND COMEBACKS, OUTS OR BACKSHOULDER THROWS

it is called by the oc if he knows what he's doing....right...not all young qbs get to call thier own plays or audible out...they are given two plays...1st play...if the defense is on it,,switch to second called play

MCCoy " tim now check the db...if they are playing off...then change play and throw it to decker at the snap"

underrated29
01-29-2012, 05:41 PM
from article:



full article - http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/09/how-tebow-and-his-helpers-beat-man-coverage/



Yes, this is an excellent point. But as I said BEFORE the NE game. NE will not be in zero coverage. They will play their safties in a deep zone, thus negating those fly patters. When that happens the short game, and middle of the field is open. Wide open.

But we never did that. Also the Pats just Teed off on us and sent guys after tebow constantly. And the theme of the year, help your young QB out by taking pressure off of him. Hit them with a screen and they will either go for Tds, or they will back the pressure off. And if they dont then we can run it down their throats all day long.

We did none of that because Mccoy is a terrible OC. Flat out the worst person in our broncos organization including players. Nate JOnes was the worst, but now that he is gone Mccoy is king of that spot.

MOtorboat
01-29-2012, 05:43 PM
where did i say that?....or is it you just digest what you want and ignore the rest?

i said timing isnt as important in the quick hits, bubble sscreens, quick slants AS IT IS IN THE DEEPER PASSES LIKE CURLS AND COMEBACKS, OUTS OR BACKSHOULDER THROWS

it is called by the oc if he knows what he's doing....right...not all young qbs get to call thier own plays or audible out...they are given two plays...1st play...if the defense is on it,,switch to second called play

MCCoy " tim now check the db...if they are playing off...then change play and throw it to decker at the snap"

Well, I'm not sure what you're saying. Timing and footwork is the most important part of the plays you want called. Tebow struggles with that, thus those plays weren't called as often as the are in other offenses.

This isn't rocket science.

silkamilkamonico
01-29-2012, 05:48 PM
Yes, this is an excellent point. But as I said BEFORE the NE game. NE will not be in zero coverage. They will play their safties in a deep zone, thus negating those fly patters. When that happens the short game, and middle of the field is open. Wide open.

But we never did that. Also the Pats just Teed off on us and sent guys after tebow constantly. And the theme of the year, help your young QB out by taking pressure off of him. Hit them with a screen and they will either go for Tds, or they will back the pressure off. And if they dont then we can run it down their throats all day long.

We did none of that because Mccoy is a terrible OC. Flat out the worst person in our broncos organization including players. Nate JOnes was the worst, but now that he is gone Mccoy is king of that spot.


Here is a better question.

If you take McCoy out of the equation and put someone more than competent in there, where would Tim Tebow be as a QB right now?

Ravage!!!
01-29-2012, 05:56 PM
Here is a better question.

If you take McCoy out of the equation and put someone more than competent in there, where would Tim Tebow be as a QB right now?

I could very easily come up with another question that can't be answered. Where would any other OC be, right now, if he had to come up with an offense for a QB that can't throw?

catfish
01-29-2012, 05:58 PM
Here is a better question.

If you take McCoy out of the equation and put someone more than competent in there, where would Tim Tebow be as a QB right now?

IMO right where he is now...add to that McCoy's job is to win games not make Tebow's #s look good and I think he did fine

underrated29
01-29-2012, 06:04 PM
Here is a better question.

If you take McCoy out of the equation and put someone more than competent in there, where would Tim Tebow be as a QB right now?


Interesting. Very interesting. If it is anyone from the Shanny tree- kubes, dennison, shanny etc. Id say tebow would be FAR ahead of where he is now.


If it is someone from a team like Jax, atl, ten,-id say where he is at now or worse.

If we are looking at someone from a team that takes advantage of what the d is showing-saints, lions, buffalo, seattle, chargers- he could very well be much improved, just by the fact that they will keep him clean and upright and work on his struggles--short passes, timing etc.

Ravage!!!
01-29-2012, 06:05 PM
IMO right where he is now...add to that McCoy's job is to win games not make Tebow's #s look good and I think he did fine

great point. That was the number one thing on all the coaches agenda. Do what we MUST do to win now. Limit the reads, limit the throws, keep Tim out of trouble, DON'T turn the ball over, punt and play field position.

But they had a reason for going with this formula.

I think we exceeded the expectations of this team a LONG time ago, yet people want to BLAME the OC because we didn't go further?? :confused: Doesn't make sense. Its as if we were the GB Packers and failed despite having a team expecting to go to the Super Bowl.

catfish
01-29-2012, 06:07 PM
Which numbers? I can manipulate any number you want me to. You're choosing to manipulate the completion percentage on short throws to show more screens should have been called. I'd manipulate the overall completion percentage to show that as a coordinator you play percentages and if you're quarterback can't throw over 50 percent complete, you run the ball.

The eye test simply showed me that he cannot consistently make the throws needed to be made to operate the offense so many people want McCoy to call.

Tebow's inability to read defenses well enough, his lack of getting rid of the ball with timing and his unwillingness to throw into tight windows, is the reason slants and screens and crossing patterns weren't called more. That IS the reason McCoy called the offense the way he did. For some reason, it's really hard to get that through to people.

I actually argued that we threw the same percentage of screens as other teams, and the longer passes were most likely a result of what the D was giving us rather than some flaw of McCoy. I stated that the longer passes were a contirbuting factor, but in no way the sole reason Tebows completion % was low.

I am not manipulating any numbers, I stated that the completion rates per distance were not as different as one might expect with the exception of 11-20 yards...which is true...did you look at the splits? I am trying to provide facts to narrow down where exaclty the offense is struggling, to include Tebow. Insisting of something being fact because you know what you saw moves this to the level of debate on religion where both sides are just arguing what they believe and neither side is going to change its mind. I am not interested in that kind of debate, if you want to point out what numbers you feel are indicitave of your beliefs I will be more than happy to debate that, but arguing over what you saw is not going to be productive.

bcbronc
01-29-2012, 06:09 PM
The screen negates and is the perfect play to be called when there is a blitz. But we never did it and tebow got killed. I mean, if everyteam runs screens, successful or not and we do not? and we have no counter for the blitz, nothing. Its bad. But then there is teh PA boot, and half a dozen other types of plays to take advantage of the defense.

Rarely did a team blitz us excessively though. That's the hole in your donut.



in case your not getting it...timeing isnt as important in the quick shallow game as it would be in the deeper outs, curls or backside shoulder throws

You agree that the fly is the route least dependent on timing? Even backside shoulder throws, more about accuracy than timing.


Here is a better question.

If you take McCoy out of the equation and put someone more than competent in there, where would Tim Tebow be as a QB right now?

If that competent OC was married to his particular system, and not as willing as McCoy to go completely away from the philosophy he believes in to tailor an offense to his QB's limitations, then possibly on the way out of the league.

MOtorboat
01-29-2012, 06:12 PM
I actually argued that we threw the same percentage of screens as other teams, and the longer passes were most likely a result of what the D was giving us rather than some flaw of McCoy. I stated that the longer passes were a contirbuting factor, but in no way the sole reason Tebows completion % was low.

I am not manipulating any numbers, I stated that the completion rates per distance were not as different as one might expect with the exception of 11-20 yards...which is true...did you look at the splits? I am trying to provide facts to narrow down where exaclty the offense is struggling, to include Tebow. Insisting of something being fact because you know what you saw moves this to the level of debate on religion where both sides are just arguing what they believe and neither side is going to change its mind. I am not interested in that kind of debate, if you want to point out what numbers you feel are indicitave of your beliefs I will be more than happy to debate that, but arguing over what you saw is not going to be productive.

I have told you over and over and over why the offense, mostly the passing game, struggled.

You keep wanting to find numbers to manipulate and make it sound as if it is not Tebow.

I'm done arguing it.

This is the reason shorter and more pass plays were not called: Tebow struggles with the timing, the footwork and the willingness to throw into windows enough to throw those passes, so McCoy did not call them. That's the reason. There is no other reason. There is no other excuse. That IS the reason those plays weren't called.

Ravage!!!
01-29-2012, 06:17 PM
If that competent OC was married to his particular system, and not as willing as McCoy to go completely away from the philosophy he believes in to tailor an offense to his QB's limitations, then possibly on the way out of the league.

This is the thing I don't believe gets nearly enough credit around here. McCoy did an AMAZING job of completely wiping the offense we were running last year, and the beginning of this year, and taylored and offense to a QB that is very limited in throwing the ball. That was believed to be "Rumors" , but it turns out that all accounts were accurate.

So McCoy and Fox turn EVERYTHING upside down and inside out, 1/3 the way into the season.... to the point that Fox's name was being mentioned as a CoY contestant because of the way we changed everything.... and now McCoy is being attacked as if he's done something wrong? Doesn't make sense.

We should be THANKING McCoy for not putting TEbow in a position of which he wo uld have fallen on his face....like he did in NE. Fox said recently that if Tim had to run a conventional pocket offense, he would be screwed. The coaching staff moved away and went with this strengths despite the large problem in Tim's game.

I am actually very impressed with what our coaches accomplished.

arapaho2
01-29-2012, 06:27 PM
Well, I'm not sure what you're saying. Timing and footwork is the most important part of the plays you want called. Tebow struggles with that, thus those plays weren't called as often as the are in other offenses.

This isn't rocket science.

what timing is needed in taking a snap in shotgun and imediatly throwing it to a wr when the db is playing off?

where is footwork and timing a huge issue when your first read is the wr slant as soon as he gets off the line when the db plays off?

tims mechanical issues are in the drop back...

im pretty sure every passing expert in the game would tell you for a young qb with expirience and mechanica issues these types of short routes would be a needed fundemental aspect of the passing game

MOtorboat
01-29-2012, 06:30 PM
what timing is needed in taking a snap in shotgun and imediatly throwing it to a wr when the db is playing off?

where is footwork and timing a huge issue when your first read is the wr slant as soon as he gets off the line when the db plays off?

tims mechanical issues are in the drop back...

im pretty sure every passing expert in the game would tell you for a young qb with expirience and mechanica issues these types of short routes would be a needed fundemental aspect of the passing game

His footwork problems are not just in drop back situations.

And are you really arguing that footwork and timing aren't necessities in slant patterns?

Ravage!!!
01-29-2012, 06:33 PM
what timing is needed in taking a snap in shotgun and imediatly throwing it to a wr when the db is playing off?

where is footwork and timing a huge issue when your first read is the wr slant as soon as he gets off the line when the db plays off?

tims mechanical issues are in the drop back...

im pretty sure every passing expert in the game would tell you for a young qb with expirience and mechanica issues these types of short routes would be a needed fundemental aspect of the passing game

His mechanics are FAR beyond just the drop back. Its his feet, hips and arm. His ELONGATED throwing motion makes it difficult to have good timing on the quick in slants and outs.

Footwork and good mechanics are the BASIS of the in slant. Its not just his throwing motion, its everything. Its all the small things that, together, cause some large problems. Its why those that continue to watch him throw say that he's always going to have a hard time being a passer in this league.

But I still don't understand your point. I think you believe that these "magic" plays would have changed somethign throughout the season. What do you think it would have changed?

arapaho2
01-29-2012, 06:38 PM
Rarely did a team blitz us excessively though. That's the hole in your donut.



You agree that the fly is the route least dependent on timing? Even backside shoulder throws, more about accuracy than timing.



If that competent OC was married to his particular system, and not as willing as McCoy to go completely away from the philosophy he believes in to tailor an offense to his QB's limitations, then possibly on the way out of the league.


BS !!! teams blitzed us relentlesy

where did i say the fly or go route is least dependant in timing? never did

i said the quick wr screeens, quick slants ARE LESS DEPENDANT ON TIMING THAN THE DEEPER CURL ROUTES, OUTS OR BACKSHOULDER THROWS

back shoulder throws are the picture of timing...the wr and qb have to be on the same page timing wise as to when the ball is released and when the wr turns for it:lol:....wr has his back to the qb...its a timing route

the qb can lay the ball pinpoint accurate....but if the wr isnt on the same page on when the balls comeing accuracy means diddly if the wrs doesnt turn for the ball

Ravage!!!
01-29-2012, 06:41 PM
a QB can choose to throw on the back shoulder on any throw...whether the WR knows its coming or not. Thats not dependent on timing. The WR sees the ball, and slows down. Thats usually a decision made by the QB when throwing the ball. "Do I lob it over, or is the CB right on him that stopping gives the space." The backshoulder throw isn't really a timing route.

But then, I'm sure there are some backshoulder routes that ARE timing routes... ones they work on in practice. But generally speaking..its a throw intended to let the WR adjust to.

Denver Native (Carol)
01-29-2012, 06:50 PM
I absolutely do not understand the criticism of McCoy. The Broncos had played 5 games, and then the change to TT. This was not like putting a new starting QB on the field, and RETAINING the same offense as the first 5 games - this was TOTALLY starting over. Has anyone realized that more than likely the offense they needed to change to was totally NEW to the coaches, and not only NEW but had to be structured to what TT could do IMO, I feel McCoy and Co. did a great job in the short time they had to do it in.

arapaho2
01-29-2012, 06:52 PM
a QB can choose to throw on the back shoulder on any throw...whether the WR knows its coming or not. Thats not dependent on timing. The WR sees the ball, and slows down. Thats usually a decision made by the QB when throwing the ball. "Do I lob it over, or is the CB right on him that stopping gives the space." The backshoulder throw isn't really a timing route.

But then, I'm sure there are some backshoulder routes that ARE timing routes... ones they work on in practice. But generally speaking..its a throw intended to let the WR adjust to.


disagree rav...the impact of a true back shoulder is that the defender doesnt know its coming....more of a timing and yardage situation
snap the ball...run 15 yards turn for the ball

true some may be a visuall thing...as in the wr sees the ball and adjusts for it as in the endzone ..but the true weapon is the fact defenders dont know its coming...rodgers backshoulder throw is almost unstoppable because he and his wrs have it timed perfectly

catfish
01-29-2012, 06:55 PM
great point. That was the number one thing on all the coaches agenda. Do what we MUST do to win now. Limit the reads, limit the throws, keep Tim out of trouble, DON'T turn the ball over, punt and play field position.

But they had a reason for going with this formula.

I think we exceeded the expectations of this team a LONG time ago, yet people want to BLAME the OC because we didn't go further?? :confused: Doesn't make sense. Its as if we were the GB Packers and failed despite having a team expecting to go to the Super Bowl.

I agree 100%, like I said there is deifnately room for improvement with Tebow, you made a very good point about needing to improve 3rd down % in another thread, very very true. I absolutely agree he needs to find his checkdowns instead of it being all or nothing on the completions, he did a piss poor job of it this year which is reflected in his high% of long sacks. I am with Elway when he says that completion% is going to be a product of what passes you are attempting, which is dictated by what a D is giving you.

I do take offense with people saying we didn't throw screens/short passes because Tebow couldn't hit them. The numbers say he did hit them. The numbers also say we attempted an average amount of screens, to the lower side of average, but still average, but the YPA was 4 yds when you are running it for 5 yards per rush why would you throw it short? When there are 8 players within 6 yards of the line of scrimmage in the middle of the field why would you throw it short across the middle?

I have no problem saying they attempted longer passes due to the risk/reward factor. I would expect more of the same next year if the running game is as succesful as it has been. I have no problem with people saying they did it to simplify the reads for Tebow, it is a fairly common practice for a young QB and he will need to see more of the field next year. My personal opinion is it was those 2 combined with the fact that the D they saw the most dictates the deep ball.

Personally I think McCoy did a good job putting this team in a position to win at the end of the game. There are teams that win by putting up 30 pts and there are teams that win by not giving the other team the chance to score 30 by limiting turnovers, winning the field position battle on special teams and leaning on the D. We are going to be a Defensive team.

Problems on 3rd down in both the run and pass game made McCoys offense stall more than anything else. When the QB is only picking up 20% there is a problem, when the rushing game is 30th in the league on rushing conversions on 3rd and less than 3 yds there is a problem. The more I think about it the more I feel you are right that if they correct the 3rd down issues both rushing and passing that will be the biggest step.

Ravage!!!
01-29-2012, 06:57 PM
disagree rav...the impact of a true back shoulder is that the defender doesnt know its coming....more of a timing and yardage situation
snap the ball...run 15 yards turn for the ball

true some may be a visuall thing...as in the wr sees the ball and adjusts for it as in the endzone ..but the true weapon is the fact defenders dont know its coming...rodgers backshoulder throw is almost unstoppable because he and his wrs have it timed perfectly

The reason the defender doesn't know its coming is because he's watching the WR's eyes. THe back-shoulder pass can happen on ANY play up the field because the QB simply throws it there, and the WR has the advantage of seeing the ball while the corner doesn't.

Like I said, there are some plays that might have that timing down, but to throw a back-shoulder pass when the defender is trailing (which is what you would do if it was a predetermined throw) would be foolish. The only time the back-shoulder is dependable is when the CB is even/tight with the WR. Can that be timing, sure. But generally thats not a timed pass.

arapaho2
01-29-2012, 06:58 PM
I absolutely do not understand the criticism of McCoy. The Broncos had played 5 games, and then the change to TT. This was not like putting a new starting QB on the field, and RETAINING the same offense as the first 5 games - this was TOTALLY starting over. Has anyone realized that more than likely the offense they needed to change to was totally NEW to the coaches, and not only NEW but had to be structured to what TT could do IMO, I feel McCoy and Co. did a great job in the short time they had to do it in.


nobodies disputing it wasnt a brilliant change...but it wasnt by mccoys insistance

what were talking about is the predictability of it....tebow threw only 37 times all season on first down...the overwhelming majority in the second half when trialing...going off memory tim only threw 15 passes all season...when NOT TRAILING!!! THATS PREDICTABLE

were talking about the failure to disrupt the pass rush by the means every other OC uses...screens, quick throws

catfish
01-29-2012, 06:58 PM
BS !!! teams blitzed us relentlesy

where did i say the fly or go route is least dependant in timing? never did

i said the quick wr screeens, quick slants ARE LESS DEPENDANT ON TIMING THAN THE DEEPER CURL ROUTES, OUTS OR BACKSHOULDER THROWS

back shoulder throws are the picture of timing...the wr and qb have to be on the same page timing wise as to when the ball is released and when the wr turns for it:lol:....wr has his back to the qb...its a timing route

the qb can lay the ball pinpoint accurate....but if the wr isnt on the same page on when the balls comeing accuracy means diddly if the wrs doesnt turn for the ball

as for the blitz, I think teams backed off the blitz after the Jets game...I am pretty sure it was more man coverage 4 man rush , LB spy mush rush stuff...but again that is my recolection and I don't trust my memory too much

MOtorboat
01-29-2012, 07:01 PM
as for the blitz, I think teams backed off the blitz after the Jets game...I am pretty sure it was more man coverage 4 man rush , LB spy mush rush stuff...but again that is my recolection and I don't trust my memory too much

They did. Because they realized they didn't need crazy blitz schemes to contain Tebow's passing abilities.

arapaho2
01-29-2012, 07:03 PM
The reason the defender doesn't know its coming is because he's watching the WR's eyes. THe back-shoulder pass can happen on ANY play up the field because the QB simply throws it there, and the WR has the advantage of seeing the ball while the corner doesn't.

Like I said, there are some plays that might have that timing down, but to throw a back-shoulder pass when the defender is trailing (which is what you would do if it was a predetermined throw) would be foolish. The only time the back-shoulder is dependable is when the CB is even/tight with the WR. Can that be timing, sure. But generally thats not a timed pass.


lol he's only watching the wrs eyes if hes playing zone behind the wr

if he's on man...as most bs throws are against the db is running with the wr and turns and looks for the ball when the wr does....the timing of a correctly thrown and timed BS is that the db cannot react in time to stop it....no matter what you wanna say its a timing route
snap...1, 2, 3, hit the breaks and turn, and the balls already there on the back shoulder where the db cannot stop it

Ravage!!!
01-29-2012, 07:06 PM
Problems on 3rd down in both the run and pass game made McCoys offense stall more than anything else. When the QB is only picking up 20% there is a problem, when the rushing game is 30th in the league on rushing conversions on 3rd and less than 3 yds there is a problem. The more I think about it the more I feel you are right that if they correct the 3rd down issues both rushing and passing that will be the biggest step.

I think you hit it. We can't say that everything is Tbow's fault, and we can't say that its McCoy's fault for "bad play calling" (I just laugh at that comment since there are so many OCs running around on message boards). But I think it's easily a combo. Tebow has/had his limits, and McCoy tried to stick within the "boundries" that he felt was safe...or gave them the highest percentage. I'm sure there were times that it was too conservative (obviously so)...but I think its easy to look BACK and judge on production rather than be the guy that has spent the last 80 hours watching the other team and your team in film.

After all, we ALL know the play that was called didn't work on that instance...so I'm SURE that the play "I" want to call would have!! :lol:

The team has a long ways to go. We exceeded any expectations and we got some VERY VERY lucky breaks along the road. What worries me the most, are the game that we didn't get the lucky breaks were the games that had us look the worst (save Pitt).

We all know that I'm very doubtful that Tebow will be the passer we need in this league.....but... I'm hopeful. I like Tim as a person. I like his athletism.....so I am negative about believing it will change much, but can only wait and see.

I just think blaming the coaches for not going further into the playoffs... is pretty short-sighted. This team was just over-matched by the time we hit the playoffs. We got lucky with Pitt and their injuries but simply ran out of luck by the time we hit NE. Thats not the coaches fault.

catfish
01-29-2012, 07:15 PM
I think you hit it. We can't say that everything is Tbow's fault, and we can't say that its McCoy's fault for "bad play calling" (I just laugh at that comment since there are so many OCs running around on message boards). But I think it's easily a combo. Tebow has/had his limits, and McCoy tried to stick within the "boundries" that he felt was safe...or gave them the highest percentage. I'm sure there were times that it was too conservative (obviously so)...but I think its easy to look BACK and judge on production rather than be the guy that has spent the last 80 hours watching the other team and your team in film.

After all, we ALL know the play that was called didn't work on that instance...so I'm SURE that the play "I" want to call would have!! :lol:

The team has a long ways to go. We exceeded any expectations and we got some VERY VERY lucky breaks along the road. What worries me the most, are the game that we didn't get the lucky breaks were the games that had us look the worst (save Pitt).

We all know that I'm very doubtful that Tebow will be the passer we need in this league.....but... I'm hopeful. I like Tim as a person. I like his athletism.....so I am negative about believing it will change much, but can only wait and see.

I just think blaming the coaches for not going further into the playoffs... is pretty short-sighted. This team was just over-matched by the time we hit the playoffs. We got lucky with Pitt and their injuries but simply ran out of luck by the time we hit NE. Thats not the coaches fault.

I am with you, I choose to believe Tebow will get better, but in reality it is 50/50 at best. My posts are not meant to imply that Tebow is a finished product, or his # are not in any way his fault, as with any QB the majority of the blame is on him. Simply to show that perhaps it isn't as bad as some would say. I feel there are some mitigating factors, but that doesnt change the fact that he needs to improve.(just as there are mitigating factors to some of the poor stats at other point on the team) He sure as hell hasn't proved he is the franchise guy yet, simply earned another year IMO.

I sincerely hope he comes out and gets the team some wins that can't be written off to luck, but if next year there isn't any improvement I will be behind whatever decision the FO makes. Luckily you have a legend at the position making the judgement so if he says he hasn't improved I will agree no arguement, I would expect if he says he has seen enough improvement for another year others would show the same courtesy.

Ravage!!!
01-29-2012, 07:17 PM
lol he's only watching the wrs eyes if hes playing zone behind the wr

if he's on man...as most bs throws are against the db is running with the wr and turns and looks for the ball when the wr does....the timing of a correctly thrown and timed BS is that the db cannot react in time to stop it....no matter what you wanna say its a timing route
snap...1, 2, 3, hit the breaks and turn, and the balls already there on the back shoulder where the db cannot stop it

Arap, stop. Now you are embarrassing yourself.

In Man-to-man coverage you are watching the WR and his eyes. People have a natural instinct that athe eyes get bigger once the ball is thrown to them and coming closer. Veteran WRs work and work on HIDING that instinctive reaction so that they can toss their hands up at the last second and the defender doesn't even know the ball had been thrown. THats a very difficult thing to learn, and most don't get it down.

In Zone coverage... the defenders are watching more of the QB while keeping "Track" of a player within their zone. Floating, shuffling, sliding while not letting any player within "their" zone go deeper then they are. Then realeasing the player to the next zone.

Back-shoulder throws are hit to the WR that has one-n-one tight coverage where the WR has the advantage of stopping while the CB doesn't have the foresight to stop soon enough. The WRs simply plants and turns as the CBs momentum carries them pass the point of attack.

Can this be timing, absolutely. But generally speaking, its the QB choosing not to put the ball out OVER the WR but instead to throw it short so the WR (who is covered in man, has the advantage of looking back at the ball while the defender is watching the WR) can plant and turn.

I'm not saying they can't be timing routes, but you are incorrect to say that they are simply timing routes. Even in the timing routes that you are talking about, the QB can SEE where the defender is. Does he throw it over the top or does he throw to the back shoulder? Its reading the defender.

catfish
01-29-2012, 07:17 PM
They did. Because they realized they didn't need crazy blitz schemes to contain Tebow's passing abilities.

probably a part of it

arapaho2
01-29-2012, 07:20 PM
as for the blitz, I think teams backed off the blitz after the Jets game...I am pretty sure it was more man coverage 4 man rush , LB spy mush rush stuff...but again that is my recolection and I don't trust my memory too much

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/player/tim-tebow/splits/766555?q=tim-tebow
according to these stats tebow was blitzed about 25% of his totsl passing attempts

it also shows he faced a 5-6 man front 102 of his 271 attempts..about 38%

Ravage!!!
01-29-2012, 07:21 PM
I hope they continue to blitz. Most QBs thrive in the passing game the more they blitz.

catfish
01-29-2012, 07:27 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/player/tim-tebow/splits/766555?q=tim-tebow
according to these stats tebow was blitzed about 25% of his totsl passing attempts

it also shows he faced a 5-6 man front 102 of his 271 attempts..about 38%

and McCoy was blitzed 36% and Bradford 37%. Tebows passing numbers were actuall signifigantly worse when he was being blitzed...maybe people figured the blitz gave him too much opportunity for big plays with his legs?

underrated29
01-29-2012, 08:27 PM
Rarely did a team blitz us excessively though. That's the hole in your donut.



You agree that the fly is the route least dependent on timing? Even backside shoulder throws, more about accuracy than timing.



If that competent OC was married to his particular system, and not as willing as McCoy to go completely away from the philosophy he believes in to tailor an offense to his QB's limitations, then possibly on the way out of the league.




And this is one of the reasons why I HATE MCCOY as an OC. Screw that! Why the hell would you tailor something to a players weaknesses then his skills?

YES- I know we did the option, and it worked for a minute. But not any longer and its so damn predictable. And nobody can argue that. Plain and preditcable.


Which once again comes back to tebows strengths.

Throwing on the run. Moving the pocket. Simple easy reads. Improvisation. Running. Trucking players. Long bombs.



So why in the name of zuesses butthole do we not ever do things to take advantage of these?
Screens, PA Boots, short passes, reads, throws (screens) to bring the safties up, ANYTHING IN THE MIDDLE OF THE FREAKING FIELD!- there is only ever ONE player in the middle- and thats the Mike spying tebow. Heaven forbid we send royal or any player with speed to the middle, the RB, hell even spencer larsen....They will beat the mike easily......Oh and then that means the mike will have to pay attention to that player isntead of tebow. WHich means tebow can run.



We win against teams that keep their Safties low. When they keep them back we struggle because mccoy cant adjust or game call. Thus resulting in tons of three and outs. Instead of using tebows strengths to bring the safties low. We just:

1st and 10- Option run
2nd and 10- Run
3rd and 10- Go Routes.
4th-punt

1st and 10- run
2nd and 6-option toss
3rd and 7- run
4th punt


Banging head against wall over and over and over and over and over and over again. Sooner than later this is what is going to happen. Either A) mccoy stays and tebow progress very little. B) Mccoy leaves because he is inept and Tebow grows and perhaps becomes a QB. C) Mccoy stays, we let tebow go and he performs elsewhere under a competent OC. D) Im wrong Mccoy is genius and godly and he and tebow become the fearsome twosome.




I will take odds that D NEVER occurs unless mccoy grows a freaking brain.

arapaho2
01-29-2012, 09:30 PM
and McCoy was blitzed 36% and Bradford 37%. Tebows passing numbers were actuall signifigantly worse when he was being blitzed...maybe people figured the blitz gave him too much opportunity for big plays with his legs?


did you also notice mccoy threw about 70% of his passes behind the line out to 10 yards

or that bradford through 67% of his attempts closer than ten yards

as in the quick hit designed to combat the blitz?

compared to tebows 47%

probably not

catfish
01-29-2012, 09:37 PM
did you also notice mccoy threw about 70% of his passes behind the line out to 10 yards

or that bradford through 67% of his attempts closer than ten yards

as in the quick hit designed to combat the blitz?

compared to tebows 47%

probably not

i actually made a pretty big deal about it a few posts back, posted splits and everything

arapaho2
01-29-2012, 11:08 PM
Arap, stop. Now you are embarrassing yourself.

In Man-to-man coverage you are watching the WR and his eyes. People have a natural instinct that athe eyes get bigger once the ball is thrown to them and coming closer. Veteran WRs work and work on HIDING that instinctive reaction so that they can toss their hands up at the last second and the defender doesn't even know the ball had been thrown. THats a very difficult thing to learn, and most don't get it down.

In Zone coverage... the defenders are watching more of the QB while keeping "Track" of a player within their zone. Floating, shuffling, sliding while not letting any player within "their" zone go deeper then they are. Then realeasing the player to the next zone.

Back-shoulder throws are hit to the WR that has one-n-one tight coverage where the WR has the advantage of stopping while the CB doesn't have the foresight to stop soon enough. The WRs simply plants and turns as the CBs momentum carries them pass the point of attack.

Can this be timing, absolutely. But generally speaking, its the QB choosing not to put the ball out OVER the WR but instead to throw it short so the WR (who is covered in man, has the advantage of looking back at the ball while the defender is watching the WR) can plant and turn.

I'm not saying they can't be timing routes, but you are incorrect to say that they are simply timing routes. Even in the timing routes that you are talking about, the QB can SEE where the defender is. Does he throw it over the top or does he throw to the back shoulder? Its reading the defender.


come on rav...your going all lonestar to prove a point that doesnt mean shit

the whole thing was over a statement that i said

timing...isnt as important in the quick hits, bubble screens, rb screens, quick slants as it is in the deeper comebacks, outs, and backshoulder passes

now you and i have a differeing opinion on these back shoulder passes...im talking about the ones where a db is playing press....the wr streaks and imediatlty stops turns and the ball is there on his back shoulder


now if you...dont think that takes timing:confused:

arapaho2
01-29-2012, 11:10 PM
i actually made a pretty big deal about it a few posts back, posted splits and everything


i know...but what im showing is oc's combat a blitz by throwing these short quick hits, screens ...as in short passes near the LOS

my point is we didnt do it enough for a young qb

arapaho2
01-29-2012, 11:13 PM
I hope they continue to blitz. Most QBs thrive in the passing game the more they blitz.


only if they have the expirience to change a play to take advantage of what they think they see coming

only if the OC sees whats happening and calls plays that expose the blitz

only if the oc doesnt call long slow developing go routes when a team is blitzing

in our case tebow isnt expirienced enough to trust what he sees and mccoy isnt creative enough to take advantage

MOtorboat
01-29-2012, 11:18 PM
come on rav...your going all lonestar to prove a point that doesnt mean shit

the whole thing was over a statement that i said

timing...isnt as important in the quick hits, bubble screens, rb screens, quick slants as it is in the deeper comebacks, outs, and backshoulder passes

now you and i have a differeing opinion on these back shoulder passes...im talking about the ones where a db is playing press....the wr streaks and imediatlty stops turns and the ball is there on his back shoulder


now if you...dont think that takes timing:confused:

Just so you know, you're wrong.

arapaho2
01-29-2012, 11:53 PM
Just so you know, you're wrong.



nope im right

bcbronc
01-30-2012, 01:58 AM
I am with you, I choose to believe Tebow will get better, but in reality it is 50/50 at best. My posts are not meant to imply that Tebow is a finished product, or his # are not in any way his fault, as with any QB the majority of the blame is on him.

you best be careful cat, it sometimes gets tough to remember that you're a Tebowite and not a Bronco fan. If you could pledge allegiance to TT in your sig or something, it would make it easier for me to keep track. TYIA.

:D



timing...isnt as important in the quick hits, bubble screens, rb screens, quick slants as it is in the deeper comebacks, outs, and backshoulder passes


I dunno, maybe it's the way you define "timing" or something.

On a quick slant, the timing is everything. Everything. The window is so small in the NFL that if the ball isn't out exactly when it's supposed to be, there's little chance of a completion. And that exact time is pretty much the same every time you run the play. That's what I mean when I'm talking about timing routes, I'm talking about a play that has the exact same "timing" from snap to release every single time it's called (or at least should).

Something like a deep out, definitely timing involved, but I would consider it more anticipation (something else Tebow definitely needs work on). At higher levels, a 10 yard out isn't going to be just "go run 10 yards and cut out". The cut is determined, or at least influenced, by the defender. If a CB has outside leverage vs a WR, the WR can't just cut out whenever he wants...he has to get the CBs hips turned upfield so he can cut underneath the DB and get some separation. Same with a deep come back, the WR is trying to get to the top of his route at a certain yardage, but it's going to be the CBs hips that determine exactly where he breaks off the route.

It's up to the QB to anticipate that moment, and that's where chemistry with his WRs is so important. But it's not timing in the same way the short stuff is in that not every deep out will be the exact same "timing" from snap to release. Some will be step-step-step-throw, others will be step-step-step-bounce-throw etc.

catfish
01-30-2012, 10:21 AM
you best be careful cat, it sometimes gets tough to remember that you're a Tebowite and not a Bronco fan. If you could pledge allegiance to TT in your sig or something, it would make it easier for me to keep track. TYIA.

:D



I dunno, maybe it's the way you define "timing" or something.

On a quick slant, the timing is everything. Everything. The window is so small in the NFL that if the ball isn't out exactly when it's supposed to be, there's little chance of a completion. And that exact time is pretty much the same every time you run the play. That's what I mean when I'm talking about timing routes, I'm talking about a play that has the exact same "timing" from snap to release every single time it's called (or at least should).

Something like a deep out, definitely timing involved, but I would consider it more anticipation (something else Tebow definitely needs work on). At higher levels, a 10 yard out isn't going to be just "go run 10 yards and cut out". The cut is determined, or at least influenced, by the defender. If a CB has outside leverage vs a WR, the WR can't just cut out whenever he wants...he has to get the CBs hips turned upfield so he can cut underneath the DB and get some separation. Same with a deep come back, the WR is trying to get to the top of his route at a certain yardage, but it's going to be the CBs hips that determine exactly where he breaks off the route.

It's up to the QB to anticipate that moment, and that's where chemistry with his WRs is so important. But it's not timing in the same way the short stuff is in that not every deep out will be the exact same "timing" from snap to release. Some will be step-step-step-throw, others will be step-step-step-bounce-throw etc.

I'll try to be less rational from now on;)

NightTerror218
01-30-2012, 01:05 PM
The problem you are not considering..is that the reason Tebow threw so many deep routes were not only his choice...but because its the safest pass in the game. You either hit the receiver, or it goes out of bounds/past the defender. Tebow not only felt comfortable with that choice, but because Tim is a bad passer...it was comfortable for the coaches.

SO yeah.. Tim... chuck that ball long. Throw it deep enough that it doesn't flutter up and get picked off.

Again. Thats calling plays (as well as Tim choosing the routes) that are best for Tim and his talents. I bet the coaches would LOVE to call more crosses across the middle and slants to the inside.

I think it is actually what the offense is about. You run the ball and takes some shots down field. Run some more and then some shots down field. If that worked 100% it would be Fox's ideal wet dream. Dont need short passes or mid if you can run the ball, control the clock and hit some passes down the field.

weazel
01-30-2012, 01:09 PM
I blame the O-Line

****, I blame everyone but Tebow

NightTerror218
01-30-2012, 01:20 PM
Here is a better question.

If you take McCoy out of the equation and put someone more than competent in there, where would Tim Tebow be as a QB right now?

I think we would see more improvement in TT. And a very slightly higher completion % (5 max). I think a competent OC would work TT with the "QB bread and butter" plays such as the screen pass, making sure he knows how to use his check downs. Build TT's confidence early with the "statistically higher" throws prior to winging it downfield.

I truely wonder how much McCoy actually worked on Tebows mechanics (footwork, ect.) or did just work on prepping for the upcoming game.

catfish
01-30-2012, 01:26 PM
I think we would see more improvement in TT. And a very slightly higher completion % (5 max). I think a competent OC would work TT with the "QB bread and butter" plays such as the screen pass, making sure he knows how to use his check downs. Build TT's confidence early with the "statistically higher" throws prior to winging it downfield.

I truely wonder how much McCoy actually worked on Tebows mechanics (footwork, ect.) or did just work on prepping for the upcoming game.

realistically Tebow's mechanics aren't McCoys problem, that is all Gase plus during the season there isn't the time to go into depth on mechanics or footwork. You can tweak here or there, but those are things that happen in the offseason. During the regular season I read there is 1 offensive practice a week, one defensive and 1 game walkthrough. you cant fix anything in 1 day a week. If the mechanics are going to improve it will be in the offseason when there is time to focus on it. When you think that a brand new offense was installed on the fly with only 1-2 days a week to practice it is pretty impressive.

NightTerror218
01-30-2012, 01:27 PM
I blame the O-Line

****, I blame everyone but Tebow

I blame the O-Line, TE, QB, and WRs.

NightTerror218
01-30-2012, 01:29 PM
realistically Tebow's mechanics aren't McCoys problem, that is all Gase plus during the season there isn't the time to go into depth on mechanics or footwork. You can tweak here or there, but those are things that happen in the offseason. During the regular season I read there is 1 offensive practice a week, one defensive and 1 game walkthrough. you cant fix anything in 1 day a week. If the mechanics are going to improve it will be in the offseason when there is time to focus on it. When you think that a brand new offense was installed on the fly with only 1-2 days a week to practice it is pretty impressive.

Well you would think a guy who has "such bad mechanics" would be getting tips and help from QBC and OC.

arapaho2
01-30-2012, 01:34 PM
you best be careful cat, it sometimes gets tough to remember that you're a Tebowite and not a Bronco fan. If you could pledge allegiance to TT in your sig or something, it would make it easier for me to keep track. TYIA.

:D



I dunno, maybe it's the way you define "timing" or something.

On a quick slant, the timing is everything. Everything. The window is so small in the NFL that if the ball isn't out exactly when it's supposed to be, there's little chance of a completion. And that exact time is pretty much the same every time you run the play. That's what I mean when I'm talking about timing routes, I'm talking about a play that has the exact same "timing" from snap to release every single time it's called (or at least should).

Something like a deep out, definitely timing involved, but I would consider it more anticipation (something else Tebow definitely needs work on). At higher levels, a 10 yard out isn't going to be just "go run 10 yards and cut out". The cut is determined, or at least influenced, by the defender. If a CB has outside leverage vs a WR, the WR can't just cut out whenever he wants...he has to get the CBs hips turned upfield so he can cut underneath the DB and get some separation. Same with a deep come back, the WR is trying to get to the top of his route at a certain yardage, but it's going to be the CBs hips that determine exactly where he breaks off the route.

It's up to the QB to anticipate that moment, and that's where chemistry with his WRs is so important. But it's not timing in the same way the short stuff is in that not every deep out will be the exact same "timing" from snap to release. Some will be step-step-step-throw, others will be step-step-step-bounce-throw etc.

your talking about press coveage i believe...im talking about when db's are playing off the line
on a quick slant the key isnt timing...its visual.....the qb sees the db off the wr, the ball is snapped, the ball is to where the qb sees the wr

lets not be confused with what i say is a timing route

true to a degree virtually all passes take some timing between the qb and wr

when im saying timing route im talking the routes where the ball is gone to a specific place BEFORE the wr makes his break or turns for the ball...thats timing...if you need 8 yards and you calla route where the wr runs ten yards and breaks it off and the balls there...that takes timing between the wr and qb

and go back to my original point....wr screens, rb screens, quick slants TAKE LESS TIMING than the deeper outs and back shoulder hits...thats all i am saying

but i never said they dont have a timing aspect...

example

your play call is a wr screen if the db is playing off the wr...your in a shotgun...you see the wr is uncovered, the ball is snapped, you turn and throw

or
you need 8 yards...the db is playing press..or off the wr....the play call is a 10 yrd route breaking out...when the wr makes his break the ball should be there in fact it should have left the qbs hand before the wr makes his break

now which play is more influenced by ...timing?

catfish
01-30-2012, 01:35 PM
Well you would think a guy who has "such bad mechanics" would be getting tips and help from QBC and OC.

I am sure he is, and I read reports that Gase was staying late after practice to help Tebow, but if you are talking changing the way a guy throws the ball that doesn't get fixed during the season. He needs to go see an experienced QB coach who will bring him into deep practice repetitions to correct the motion, you don't have time for that during the season. There was some improvement in the footwork, but as Tebow got flustered it reverted, that is what happens when you only have time to superficially address footwork and it has not yet become muscle memory/habit.

It is probably going to take 2-4 solid weeks of working with a QB coach to correct the issues, not too much time in the offseason, but way too much time during the season between recuperation time, travel time, game film, non-contact practices etc etc. these guys already put in 50 hours a week to be prepared for the game, where do you find the extra time for mechanics. You can tweak these things during the season, and they did. It is going to take more than a tweak to be a polished product

NightTerror218
01-30-2012, 01:43 PM
I am sure he is, and I read reports that Gase was staying late after practice to help Tebow, but if you are talking changing the way a guy throws the ball that doesn't get fixed during the season. He needs to go see an experienced QB coach who will bring him into deep practice repetitions to correct the motion, you don't have time for that during the season. There was some improvement in the footwork, but as Tebow got flustered it reverted, that is what happens when you only have time to superficially address footwork and it has not yet become muscle memory/habit.

It is probably going to take 2-4 solid weeks of working with a QB coach to correct the issues, not too much time in the offseason, but way too much time during the season between recuperation time, travel time, game film, non-contact practices etc etc. these guys already put in 50 hours a week to be prepared for the game, where do you find the extra time for mechanics. You can tweak these things during the season, and they did. It is going to take more than a tweak to be a polished product

I did not know Gase stayed with Tebow after practice. All I knew was Elway did a couple times and that Tebow was throwing to WRs after practice and working on his drops.

catfish
01-30-2012, 02:24 PM
I did not know Gase stayed with Tebow after practice. All I knew was Elway did a couple times and that Tebow was throwing to WRs after practice and working on his drops.

I'm pretty sure the article I read said when Tebow was staying late it was with Gase. They are doing what they can IMO, time is the limiting factor

TXBRONC
01-31-2012, 04:59 PM
I think McCoy has better idea of what Tebow can and can not do. There is no in I'm going buy into the idea that Tebow and the offense struggled because we didn't use them more effectively. It's not always the perfect call in world against blitz. Our opponents were not always blitzing but what they were doing was consistently putting eight or more box.

There is an argument to be made that maybe McCoy should have called more screen plays but I don't think it's fair to crucify McCoy and say he sucks because he didn't call more of them. Especially considering the number of dropped passes, and poorly thrown passes were as much a culprit as anything else. In other words, poor execution by both receiver and quarterback have to go into the mix.

Only one screen play sticks out in my mind and that was the backside screen to Fells in the Miami game. Just because I can't think of any others doesn't mean we use them.

TXBRONC
01-31-2012, 05:09 PM
I'm pretty sure the article I read said when Tebow was staying late it was with Gase. They are doing what they can IMO, time is the limiting factor

I remember hearing that Tebow was staying after practice to work different things but I don't remember Gase being mentioned although it does stand reason Gase would since he's quarterback's coach.

I said several times after Tebow took the reins that the things Tebow would have work on would take more time than they had available to them during season. Time is at premium during the regular season the things needs to work take more time to work on than they had available to them because game prep. My hope is that with this off season whatever Tebow and works on sticks.

SM19
01-31-2012, 05:24 PM
I'd be far more concerned about the quality of McCoy's coaching if he were calling screens and bootlegs against contain defenses. That's the football equivalent of spitting into the wind.

TXBRONC
01-31-2012, 05:34 PM
I'd be far more concerned about the quality of McCoy's coaching if he were calling screens and bootlegs against contain defenses. That's the football equivalent of spitting into the wind.

I was thinking more a long the lines of peeing into the wind.

G_Money
01-31-2012, 05:40 PM
I'm on record as not being a fan of McCoy's offenses. I didn't think much of him as the "passing game coordinator" in Carolina, nor as the clipboard holder for McDaniels. I think he may be a very good leader but not a good tactician.

Which is why I think he may make a good head coach honestly - he can be a leader of men and hire a tactician to run great offenses for him.

But McCoy earned brownie points around the league for scrapping a pro offense for a college one to eke out a playoff win after starting 1-4. They may absolutely see something in him that I don't.

I'm willing to see what he can do with an entire offseason to design a more effective offense utilizing what he have on that side of the ball.

But I'd like him to remember we have TEs that might be helpful over the middle, and I'm hoping we add a RB who can catch the ball or an H-Back type who can get some FB/TE time.

We can't abandon the middle of the field on passing plays, or continue our ridiculous # of 3-and-outs with ultra-conservative playcalling.

Maybe that's Tebow's fault. Maybe it's personnel.

Maybe it's the play-caller. If the play-calling gets better and Tim can't get it done, we'll have our answer.

But McCoy has to allow him to do different things and fail at them before I can heap all the blame on Tim. Having all the receivers run 20 yards downfield on 3rd and 6 hurts my soul.

Knock that off.

~G

ShooterJM
02-01-2012, 06:39 PM
But I'd like him to remember we have TEs that might be helpful over the middle, and I'm hoping we add a RB who can catch the ball or an H-Back type who can get some FB/TE time.


Can't catch if they're forced to stay back to help the O-Line block 4 rushers.