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BroncoAV06
03-05-2009, 09:34 PM
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/nflnation/0-6-171/Double-Coverage--Cassel-vs--Cutler.html

BW throws down for Cutler.


Posted by ESPN.com's Tim Graham and Bill Williamson

Tremors rumbled though the NFL after the New England Patriots traded quarterback Matt Cassel to the Kansas City Chiefs. But the actual deal wasn't as startling as the plot lines that emanated from it.

We learned that a three-way trade was possible in which Cassel would have gone to the Denver Broncos, who would have sent Jay Cutler to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. The trade didn't materialize, but the mere fact the Broncos considered such a swap has caused considerable strain in Denver.

Does Broncos rookie head coach Josh McDaniels really think a breakout backup is a better quarterback than the 11th overall pick in the 2006 draft?

In this edition of Double Coverage, AFC West blogger Bill Williamson and AFC East counterpart Tim Graham debate the merits of Cutler and Cassel in an attempt to determine who the superior option is.

Why would McDaniels prefer Cassel over Cutler?

Tim Graham: Let's go ahead and cut to the chase, Bill. Cutler is one of the worst decision-makers in the NFL. He might be the league's most reckless starter now that Brett Favre has retired. McDaniels was raised within the Patriots organization, which places a premium on efficiency and accountability. McDaniels groomed Cassel from a player who hadn't started since high school into one of the NFL's more trustworthy passers. Cassel had a 2.1 interception percentage compared to Cutler's 2.9, but he rarely killed a drive with a bone-headed play.

Bill Williamson: Tim, there is no doubt about it. Cutler makes his share of mistakes. This guy is from the Brett Favre school of gun-slinging. He is fearless. Cutler has never seen a route he doesn't like. Often, it works in his favor; sometimes it doesn't. He does need to cut down on his interceptions. But the thing that teammates like so much about Cutler is that he tries to make the big play. And he is capable. Cutler has the ability to carry a team on his back. Cassel, again, is a system guy. In the fourth quarter, I'd take Cutler's arm and gumption any day.

TG: Cassel is no slouch late in games. Let's not forget that amazing play at the end of regulation in Week 11. With eight seconds left and the Patriots down by seven points from the New York Jets' 16-yard line, Cassel rolled right and threw a pin-point pass to Randy Moss along the sideline to send the game into overtime. It was a gutsy throw. But he never was tougher than in Week 15. A few days after his father passed away and before the funeral, Cassel threw for four touchdowns against the Raiders. Nobody can question the guy's heart.

BW: Good point, Tim. Cassel has been impressive in a short period of time. Cutler has his share of fourth-quarter magic as well. I think it all comes down to individual talent. Cutler possesses more talent than Cassel. There is a greater chance for Cutler to make a play by himself than Cassel. I think Cutler can freelance a little bit more, and he has the ability to wait out a play more because of his arm. If a play breaks down, Cutler can still make the best out of it because of his arm, field intelligence and scrambling ability.

Who has the better talent and upside?

BW: Tim, this is a no-brainer for several reasons. Cutler is younger. Cutler has 37 games of NFL experience. Cassel has 15-plus games of experience. Cutler has a rocket arm. Cassel relies on his receivers getting yards after the catch. Cutler is considered a franchise quarterback. Cassel is a system quarterback who was considered a backup until last September. Ask the other NFL teams who they'd rather have as their quarterback and in all likelihood, all of the teams that don't subscribe to the "Patriot Way" would pick Cutler. This is no knock on Cassel; he did a fine job in New England as Tom Brady's injury replacement, and he should be a good fit with former Patriot executive Scott Pioli in Kansas City. But Cutler is a player you can build a team around. Cassel is a player who fits a specific system.

TG: Cassel was a backup until September because he played behind two Heisman Trophy winners and a future Hall of Famer. That he was able to step in after so many years of holding a clipboard says an awful lot about the kind of ability he has. I'm not ready to classify Cassel a system quarterback. We do know that he thrived in the Patriots' system, but that doesn't mean he's limited to that. Cassel doesn't possess Cutler's rocket arm, but he can throw it. He also is a dangerous runner.

BW: Cutler also can run when he has to. He is a gamer who has a good field presence. If you take away their offenses and rebuild the other 10 players around them, I think Cutler's offense would succeed faster. Cassel seems to rely on the players around him. Cutler is a type of player who makes his teammates better.

TG: I get where you're coming from, Bill. Cutler is a franchise quarterback. I realize he was selected 11th overall and Cassel was lucky to get drafted at all. But I would be interested to see how many personnel executives would value Cassel's rare combination of age and potential if they could draft him today. This isn't a Chris Weinke situation, where you have an older quarterback with little experience. Cassel has been in the NFL for four years, albeit as a backup, but he has been working with elite teammates and has proven he can compete against elite opposition. He has the wisdom of years, but at the same time, he still might have untapped potential.

When it comes to being a winner, who has the edge?

TG: I think we can agree that both quarterbacks have had incredible supporting casts. Cassel had Moss, Wes Welker and a deep backfield. Cutler has Brandon Marshall, Eddie Royal, Brandon Stokley and Tony Scheffler. They both have benefited from legendary coaches. But maybe the bottom line is Cassel won 11 games and the Patriots got better as the season wore on. They should have appeared in the playoffs. With Cutler at the controls, the Broncos fell apart.

BW: Did you pay attention to that Denver defense, Tim? San Diego is still scoring points from that last game. Yes, Denver fell apart as the season wore on, but don't blame the quarterback. He didn't make all the right moves, but he had incredible pressure on him. Cutler virtually had to score every time the ball got into his hands. The defense was a liability all season, and it was incredibly porous at the end of the season, when it allowed a combined 112 points in the final three games. Denver blew a three-game lead with three games to go. It all culminated with that 52-point beauty at San Diego in the season-finale in a winner-takes-the-division game. Without Cutler, Denver would have won four or five games.

TG: Did you see the Patriots' offensive line? Cutler was sacked only 11 times. Cassel got dumped 47 times. That Cassel never went into shellshock is a miracle. But you're right: The Patriots had a defense that helped keep games manageable for Cassel. I guess the last thing I will say in Cassel's defense is that the guy is a survivor. He came to work every day and just waited for his chance to be an NFL starter. Now he finally gets a team to call his own. Cutler, on the other hand, has a team and he already wants out. I guess I find Cassel to have a cooler head inside his Riddell.

BW: Tim, I can't argue with the first part of your response, so I will take my shots at the last part. First, Cutler didn't want out until McDaniels wanted him out. Second, Cutler is as cool as they come. He is always composed, almost to the point where you wonder if he even has a pulse on the field. This stems from his days of excelling in the SEC despite playing for perennially outmanned Vanderbilt. Again, Cassel had a nice season and he should be fine with the Chiefs, but Cutler is a more known commodity, and he is more refined and more experienced. We know Cutler will get better because of his tools and his age. He's a sure thing. Cassel is a bit of a mystery. Is he a product of the Patriots' system or is he a diamond in the rough? We already know Cutler is a diamond.

TXBRONC
03-05-2009, 09:48 PM
I read this article earlier today and I thought it was very well done by both sides. I was pleasantly surprised by how well Williamson articulated his position.

elsid13
03-05-2009, 09:51 PM
I read this article earlier today and I thought very well done by both sides. I was pleasantly surprised by how well Williamson articulated his position.

Someone promised him a double whopper if he won.

EMB6903
03-05-2009, 09:52 PM
Tim Graham is such a jackass, brady got sacked what 21 times with that same offensive line?

topscribe
03-05-2009, 09:53 PM
Nice read. Thanks. Burger Bill did us proud.

One thing Bill said he could not argue with was the O-lines and sacks of the
respective QBs. Part of that is the O-line, yes. But a big part of whether a
QB is sacked also depends on pocket awareness and elusiveness.

I have been told by knowledgeable fans who watched the Pats all year that
Cassell is slower to recognize windows and get rid of the ball than was Brady.
When you don't have as quick a release, your risk of being sacked goes up.

Cutler has one of the quickest releases in the game. Quick release, pocket
awareness, elusiveness: all those make an O-line look even better.

Comparing Cassell to Cutler is like comparing Cutler to Elway, IMO. That is
how far out of Cassell's class Cutler is. He has weathered controversies
between him and Leinart and Young, then Russell, and Rivers all along,
coming out on top in each case. Cassell is his weakest challenge so far.

Cutler is widely regarded as The Franchise for the Broncos. Cassell will
never have to worry about living up to that kind of pressure.

IMHO.

-----

elsid13
03-05-2009, 09:59 PM
Cutler is so far ahead of McKid's butt boy it is ridiculous

TXBRONC
03-05-2009, 10:02 PM
Tim Graham is such a jackass, brady got sacked what 16 times with that same offensive line?

That can happen when you hold onto the ball to long.

TXBRONC
03-05-2009, 10:04 PM
Someone promised him a double whopper if he won.

Bill doesn't know how to negotiate. He could of held out for a double whopper meal deal and had king sized to boot. :tsk:

EMB6903
03-05-2009, 10:07 PM
Denver wouldnt have won 2 games without Cutler

2008 Denver Broncos defense= Worst ever

topscribe
03-05-2009, 10:09 PM
Denver wouldnt have won 2 games without Cutler

2008 Denver Broncos defense= Worst ever

Oh, I'm sure they would have won . . . at least . . . um . . . two . . . :whistle:

------

EMB6903
03-05-2009, 10:11 PM
I might have over reacted with the 2 wins...But did Denver win 1 game where Cutler played worse than average?

if Cutler played any less than great it seemed like Denver lost..

EMB6903
03-05-2009, 10:20 PM
That can happen when you hold onto the ball to long.

that has to be Cassel's biggest problem, he will get beat up the first couple of years in KC

underrated29
03-05-2009, 10:22 PM
This should not even be an arguement. Kinda like the jake vs jay threads.

Its pretty obvious who is the real Qb and has the talent to be one of the best, and one who manages the game, finds the open man and tries not to make mistakes.


JC FTW

Greatspirits
03-05-2009, 10:24 PM
Time will tell, I'd put my money on Cutler!! If he can keep his head straight!!

honz
03-05-2009, 10:32 PM
I read a stat somewhere today...wish I could remember where I saw it. Anyway, the Broncos are 11-1 under Cutler when the D holds the opponent under 24 points. I'm not sure what's more impressive...that Cutler and the offense put up 24+ points so consistently or the fact that our D has held teams to under 24 points only 12 times in the last 37 games. :shocked:

bullis26
03-05-2009, 10:36 PM
cassall isnt as big of a cry baby thats about the only thing he has on cutler and he'ss a better game manager thats it! {quote} I read a stat somewhere today...wish I could remember where I saw it. Anyway, the Broncos are 11-1 under Cutler when the D holds the opponent under 24 points. I'm not sure what's more impressive...that Cutler and the offense put up 24+ points so consistently or the fact that our D has held teams to under 24 points only 12 times in the last 37 games. {quote}
Thats really pathetic of our D

TXBRONC
03-05-2009, 11:09 PM
that has to be Cassel's biggest problem, he will get beat up the first couple of years in KC

I'm very curious to see how he does if KC's defense isn't playing well.

atwater27
03-05-2009, 11:21 PM
The funniest thing about that whole debate is that it was actually a debate.

bullis26
03-05-2009, 11:24 PM
The funniest thing about that whole debate is that it was actually a debate.

haha agreed debate officially ENDED

NameUsedBefore
03-06-2009, 12:12 AM
The defense was a liability all season, and it was incredibly porous at the end of the season, when it allowed a combined 112 points in the final three games.

And from one of the commentaries on the page:


Here's the difference between Cassel & Cutler. The Pats won 5 games in which Cassel had a QB Rating between 89.9 & 73.7.....The Broncos lost all 5 games Cutler's QB Rating was between 71.9 & 92. In Denver's 8 wins last year, Cutler averaged a rating of 106, with his lowest rating at 93 in any Bronco win. Cutler's team couldn't pick him up when he wasn't at his best, whereas the pats D was good enough to make up for Cassel. Denver won 0 games when Cutler wasn't incredible.

TXBRONC
03-06-2009, 12:50 AM
And from one of the commentaries on the page:

Here's the difference between Cassel & Cutler. The Pats won 5 games in which Cassel had a QB Rating between 89.9 & 73.7.....The Broncos lost all 5 games Cutler's QB Rating was between 71.9 & 92. In Denver's 8 wins last year, Cutler averaged a rating of 106, with his lowest rating at 93 in any Bronco win. Cutler's team couldn't pick him up when he wasn't at his best, whereas the pats D was good enough to make up for Cassel. Denver won 0 games when Cutler wasn't incredible.

Nice pick up NUB.

broncophan
03-06-2009, 06:48 AM
Nice read. Thanks. Burger Bill did us proud.

One thing Bill said he could not argue with was the O-lines and sacks of the
respective QBs. Part of that is the O-line, yes. But a big part of whether a
QB is sacked also depends on pocket awareness and elusiveness.

I have been told by knowledgeable fans who watched the Pats all year that
Cassell is slower to recognize windows and get rid of the ball than was Brady.
When you don't have as quick a release, your risk of being sacked goes up.

Cutler has one of the quickest releases in the game. Quick release, pocket
awareness, elusiveness: all those make an O-line look even better.

Comparing Cassell to Cutler is like comparing Cutler to Elway, IMO. That is
how far out of Cassell's class Cutler is. He has weathered controversies
between him and Leinart and Young, then Russell, and Rivers all along,
coming out on top in each case. Cassell is his weakest challenge so far.

Cutler is widely regarded as The Franchise for the Broncos. Cassell will
never have to worry about living up to that kind of pressure.

IMHO.

-----
It scares me to think of Cutler as "The Franchise"........but you are right.

......I don't think a whole lot of Cassel either.....but with him in the afc west..... thats just another qb in our division with a better qb rating than Cutler this past season.

Time will tell if he will help the chiefs.......but I thought Thigpen did o.k. for them last season.:confused:

claymore
03-06-2009, 06:54 AM
It scares me to think of Cutler as "The Franchise"........but you are right.

......I don't think a whole lot of Cassel either.....but with him in the afc west..... thats just another qb in our division with a better qb rating than Cutler this past season.

Time will tell if he will help the chiefs.......but I thought Thigpen did o.k. for them last season.:confused:

Wow, I am pretty damn happy he is our Franchise QB. I would hate to go thru a life of scrub free agents like Plummer.

Certain teams never get to luck into a star QB..... We are lucky.

frenchfan
03-06-2009, 08:03 AM
Cassel vs Cutler... Is there really a debate here???? :confused: :coffee:

Cassel is a good QB and did a good job with a very good Pats team.
Anyway, with him at the head of our last season's Broncos, I guess we could have fought with Lions for the #1 pick on this draft...
Just give Jay the Pat's D and I'm pretty sure that Steelers wouldn't have been WC ;)

I'll take Jay anyday.

Sure, Jay has to fix some problems... He still makes some bad reads and his overconfident about his skills. But he can make all the throws, be in motion and he is a game changer. Period.
And BTW, didn't our great #7 throw a lot of Ints too?

I'm more concerned with Jay's leadership... I think that can be fixed too...

To sum up my thought, Cassel has the potential to be a good QB. Jay has the potential to be a GREAT one. It's just up to him to reach this level... Will he? I don't know, but he sure can.

Just give Jay what could looks like a D and we'll have a fair chance to make the playoff...

Dean
03-06-2009, 12:05 PM
This should not even be an arguement. Kinda like the jake vs jay threads.

Why do people feel that they have to :deadhorse: just one more time.


Its pretty obvious who is the real Qb and has the talent to be one of the best,

Jay's physical skills far exceed Cassel and I don't believe there is any homer in that evaluation.


and one who manages the game, finds the open man and tries not to make mistakes.
JC FTW

I won't even go there. On second thought, yes I will.

I am all for Jay but he needs work in each of those areas. IMO Jay could be great but, right now, he still has a lot of work to do. He seldom looks off of his primary receiver. He consistantly throws into multiple coverage when there are wide open receivers. Many times while playing with the lead he has forced questionable passes. The fact that he has the physical ability to complete several of these does not mean he made a wise choice.

topscribe
03-06-2009, 12:10 PM
It scares me to think of Cutler as "The Franchise"........but you are right.

......I don't think a whole lot of Cassel either.....but with him in the afc west..... thats just another qb in our division with a better qb rating than Cutler this past season.

Time will tell if he will help the chiefs.......but I thought Thigpen did o.k. for them last season.:confused:

Frankly, I won't be surprised if Thigpen still beats out Cassell for the job. I'm
not saying that will happen. I just won't be surprised, is all.

Cassell did what he did with close to the best supporting cast in the league.
Let's see what he can do with a team that is not so good . . .

-----

EMB6903
03-06-2009, 12:15 PM
Thigpen impressed me a lot... esspecially as a 2nd year Undrafted FA playing with horrible talent around him.

NorthernLights
03-06-2009, 01:59 PM
Thigpen impressed me a lot... esspecially as a 2nd year Undrafted FA playing with horrible talent around him.

Thigpen was drafted by the Vikings and was picked up by the Chiefs when they tried to slide him onto the practice squad.

underrated29
03-06-2009, 02:20 PM
Thigpen was drafted by the Vikings and was picked up by the Chiefs when they tried to slide him onto the practice squad.



Kinda like us with Dom. Hixon.

LRtagger
03-06-2009, 02:20 PM
It scares me to think of Cutler as "The Franchise".......

Well we could have traded up to draft Young or Leinart in 06...that should scare you even more.

We lucked out getting Cutler. Ask Ten or Ariz who they would pick if they could go back to that draft.

claymore
03-06-2009, 09:51 PM
Well we could have traded up to draft Young or Leinart in 06...that should scare you even more.

We lucked out getting Cutler. Ask Ten or Ariz who they would pick if they could go back to that draft.

Hell Yeah!

TXBRONC
03-06-2009, 09:54 PM
Well we could have traded up to draft Young or Leinart in 06...that should scare you even more.

We lucked out getting Cutler. Ask Ten or Ariz who they would pick if they could go back to that draft.

I would bet Fisher would like a redo, but from what I remember Bud Adams was the one that really wanted Vince.

claymore
03-06-2009, 09:56 PM
I would bet Fisher would like a redo, but from what I remember Bud Adams was the one that really wanted Vince.

Same with Pat and Lelie....... Alma maters are a SOB.

bullis26
03-06-2009, 10:02 PM
Thigpen impressed me a lot... esspecially as a 2nd year Undrafted FA playing with horrible talent around him.

He had Tony G, Dewayne bowe, line wasnt good but it wasnt horrible, LJ was decent, and charles showed he will be a playmaker in the future........so they have two great talents just not a lot of it

topscribe
03-06-2009, 10:03 PM
I would bet Fisher would like a redo, but from what I remember Bud Adams was the one that really wanted Vince.

That's true. From some of the things Fisher said about Cutler, he practically had a man-crush on him . . .

-----

bullis26
03-06-2009, 10:06 PM
i'd still take mario in the 06 draft over anybody else smartest move the gm ever made.....cant say i thought so at the time but nobody did i did think reggie wouldnt be anything more than a 3rd back though

WARHORSE
03-06-2009, 11:29 PM
Nice read. Thanks. Burger Bill did us proud.

One thing Bill said he could not argue with was the O-lines and sacks of the
respective QBs. Part of that is the O-line, yes. But a big part of whether a
QB is sacked also depends on pocket awareness and elusiveness.

I have been told by knowledgeable fans who watched the Pats all year that
Cassell is slower to recognize windows and get rid of the ball than was Brady.
When you don't have as quick a release, your risk of being sacked goes up.

Cutler has one of the quickest releases in the game. Quick release, pocket
awareness, elusiveness: all those make an O-line look even better.

Comparing Cassell to Cutler is like comparing Cutler to Elway, IMO. That is
how far out of Cassell's class Cutler is. He has weathered controversies
between him and Leinart and Young, then Russell, and Rivers all along,
coming out on top in each case. Cassell is his weakest challenge so far.

Cutler is widely regarded as The Franchise for the Broncos. Cassell will
never have to worry about living up to that kind of pressure.

IMHO.

-----


Zactly. I was gonna say almost the same thing. Cutler was sacked 11 times just as much for his getting rid of the ball with that quick release of his as the Oline. It is a culmination of both.

As for Cassell, he held the ball way too long.....especially at the early part of the season. THAT contributed to more sacks than their Oline.


AND.........

Where was Cutlers running game?


M.I.A.

Dean
03-08-2009, 08:15 AM
Zactly. I was gonna say almost the same thing. Cutler was sacked 11 times just as much for his getting rid of the ball with that quick release of his as the Oline. It is a culmination of both.

As for Cassell, he held the ball way too long.....especially at the early part of the season. THAT contributed to more sacks than their Oline.


AND.........

Where was Cutlers running game?


M.I.A.

Cutler definately was a part in the Broncos low sack numbers. However, the O-line seldom allowed pressure to get close to Jay, I don't see Cutler as the deciding factor in that stat.

As to the existence of a running, we finished the season at # 12 in rushing which is not all that bad. There were 20 teams ranked behind us.

Had we kept the offense intact, IMO the O-line would have been even better this year with a year of experience and a year of working together.

topscribe
03-08-2009, 12:17 PM
Cutler definately was a part in the Broncos low sack numbers. However, the O-line seldom allowed pressure to get close to Jay, I don't see Cutler as the deciding factor in that stat.

As to the existence of a running, we finished the season at # 12 in rushing which is not all that bad. There were 20 teams ranked behind us.

Had we kept the offense intact, IMO the O-line would have been even better this year with a year of experience and a year of working together.

That is true. In fact, I would go so far as to say the Broncos have the best
O-line in the business, when you consider the numbers: #12 rushing, as you
pointed out, and 12 sacks. They have a Pro Bowler and three others (Clady,
Harris, Kuper) who played on a Pro Bowl level.

Nonetheless, I saw (and so did you) several times last year where Cutler
evaded sacks, which indeed would have been sacks for most any other QB.
That is a big reason he was sacked 12 times, as opposed to Cassell's 47. It
isn't all on the respective lines, is it?

-----

Dean
03-08-2009, 04:17 PM
Nonetheless, I saw (and so did you) several times last year where Cutler
evaded sacks, which indeed would have been sacks for most any other QB.
That is a big reason he was sacked 12 times, as opposed to Cassell's 47. It
isn't all on the respective lines, is it?

-----


I agree that I saw the same thing that's why I stated that he was a part but IMO not the deciding factor in our low sack numbers.

Drill-N-Fill
03-08-2009, 04:33 PM
Maybe its posted, but if you want a good laugh, go check out Mel Kiper Jr.'s (espn radio) take on the Cutler vs Cassel.

Sorry no link. Go to espn.com/nfl click on Jay cutler saga...and then Mel Kiper.

TXBRONC
03-08-2009, 06:32 PM
That is true. In fact, I would go so far as to say the Broncos have the best
O-line in the business, when you consider the numbers: #12 rushing, as you
pointed out, and 12 sacks. They have a Pro Bowler and three others (Clady,
Harris, Kuper) who played on a Pro Bowl level.

Nonetheless, I saw (and so did you) several times last year where Cutler
evaded sacks, which indeed would have been sacks for most any other QB.
That is a big reason he was sacked 12 times, as opposed to Cassell's 47. It
isn't all on the respective lines, is it?

-----

Yes and it was rare for him to have use that skill because line play was just that good.