Tebow plays through torn cartilage & bruised lung in 2nd half of Pats game

[Tned]

Schefter reporting:


Denver Broncos quarterback Tim Tebow played through considerable pain in Saturday night's AFC divisional playoff game against New England.

At the start of the third quarter, Tebow tore cartilage on his first rib where it attaches to his sternum, bruised his lung and had fluid buildup in the plural space of his chest, according to an NFL source.

The injuries came as the result of a hit in the pocket when Tebow was pressured after throwing a pass. Even so, he was determined to finish the game with his teammates regardless of the score.



Full article here: http://espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2011/story/_/id/7474270/denver-broncos-tim-tebow-played-injuries-vs-new-england-patriots-source-says

[TXBRONC]

Admire his grit but if the injury came at time when pulling him wouldn't have changed the outcome of the game then it might have been better sit down. Hopefully it wont take him long to heal up.

[claymore]

Admire his grit but if the injury came at time when pulling him wouldn't have changed the outcome of the game then it might have been better sit down. Hopefully it wont take him long to heal up.

Yeah, he should have went out. Fine line between being tough, and being selfish.

Hopefully it doesnt interfere with his offseason development. I can hear the excuses already.

[Tned]

Yeah, he should have went out. Fine line between being tough, and being selfish.

Hopefully it doesnt interfere with his offseason development. I can hear the excuses already.

See Coach's recent thread.... ;)

[claymore]

See Coach's recent thread.... ;)

The one where he calls someone out for doing the same thing he, and everyone else does?

[CoachChaz]

The one where he calls someone out for doing the same thing he, and everyone else does?

No. The one where I referenced a psychology review that investigated why people use teams, athletes, passions, etc to vent their personal frustrations.

How the hell is it being selfish when a player fights through an injury to play a game? Did you think Ben did that the week before? Did you think Miller was doing that the last few weeks? No...you never mentioned anything like that. but let Tebow do it and it's selfish.

[claymore]

No. The one where I referenced a psychology review that investigated why people use teams, athletes, passions, etc to vent their personal frustrations.

How the hell is it being selfish when a player fights through an injury to play a game? Did you think Ben did that the week before? Did you think Miller was doing that the last few weeks? No...you never mentioned anything like that. but let Tebow do it and it's selfish.

Thats the thread I was talking about.

An injury that severe affected his play. It had to hurt like a MF'er. If so, he should have taken himself out and gave a healthy team memeber a shot.

Im not familiar with Bens injury. I am sure though that he missed some snaps at the very least, and an ankle sprain??? Affects his play, coaches and trainers still had the chance to evaluate and determine that they were better off with Ben. If it were the playoffs, and miller had a broken thumb that affected his play, I would want him out as well. Apples and oranges.

[Thnikkaman]

Thats the thread I was talking about.

An injury that severe affected his play. It had to hurt like a MF'er. If so, he should have taken himself out and gave a healthy team memeber a shot.

Im not familiar with Bens injury. I am sure though that he missed some snaps at the very least, and an ankle sprain??? Affects his play, coaches and trainers still had the chance to evaluate and determine that they were better off with Ben. If it were the playoffs, and miller had a broken thumb that affected his play, I would want him out as well. Apples and oranges.

So you are agreeing with Coach here? :confused:

[claymore]

So you are agreeing with Coach here? :confused:

Not sure. I think we are in disagreement about Tebow. There is a difference between fighting thru an injury to help the team, and fighting thru an injury and hurting your team.

Its a fine line between selfish and tough. Same thing with taking yourself out for a boo boo.

[CoachChaz]

Not sure. I think we are in disagreement about Tebow. There is a difference between fighting thru an injury to help the team, and fighting thru an injury and hurting your team.

Its a fine line between selfish and tough. Same thing with taking yourself out for a boo boo.

But that's kind of the point. Who has said that the pain was so unbearable or intense that it affected his performance?

[TXBRONC]

Yeah, he should have went out. Fine line between being tough, and being selfish.

Hopefully it doesnt interfere with his offseason development. I can hear the excuses already.

Clay you're taking it in direction I wasn't intending. I would not call anyone selfish. Who is going make excuses?

[claymore]

But that's kind of the point. Who has said that the pain was so unbearable or intense that it affected his performance?

I dont care who you are, a bruised lung and torn rib cartlige affects how you throw/play football.

Tebow doesnt have many good statistical QB games, so its hard to tell if it affected him.

[Thnikkaman]

Its a good thing John Elway never played in any Playoff games/Superbowls with Broken Ribs and a Flac Jacket. That would have been selfish.

[claymore]

Clay you're taking it in direction I wasn't intending. I would not call anyone selfish. Who is going make excuses?

Ive thought he was selfish on a number of occasions, I didnt mean to derail the thread, or your post. I believe what you posted, with what I added to it.

The excuse makers are the ones next year who will say "He never had an offseason because of the lockout and the Torn cartlige"... " He is basically a rookie even though its his 24th game" etc...

I dont mean to sound snarky... thats not my intent.

[claymore]

Its a good thing John Elway never played in any Playoff games/Superbowls with Broken Ribs and a Flac Jacket. That would have been selfish.

I bet he missed a couple snaps and they evaluated him. Also, I would take a one armed Elway over an injured Tebow.

Not sure Id take an injured Tebow over a healthy Quin.

[TXBRONC]

I bet he missed a couple snaps and they evaluated him. Also, I would take a one armed Elway over an injured Tebow.

Not sure Id take an injured Tebow over a healthy Quin.

In Elway's second season in the League Denver faced Pittsburgh in Denver for a divisonal playoff game and he ended up with a severe hamstring pull which essentially made him a sitting duck in the pocket. He gutted out the rest that game which Denver ended up losing. Also Elway didn't have a great game.

I sure as hell would take an injuried Tim Tebow over a healthy Brady Quinn.

[topscribe]

I bet he missed a couple snaps and they evaluated him. Also, I would take a one armed Elway over an injured Tebow.

Not sure Id take an injured Tebow over a healthy Quin.

Actually, at that point it didn't matter, anyway. The game was essentially over.
Tebow had nothing to prove. It would have been better for him to come out, IMO.

However, you are one of the few here, Clay, who is being consistent with your
views. It's amazing how one player is admired for playing through such serious
injuries, whereas it is ignored on others. You didn't do that . . .

[CoachChaz]

I bet he missed a couple snaps and they evaluated him. Also, I would take a one armed Elway over an injured Tebow.

Not sure Id take an injured Tebow over a healthy Quin.

There's the real point. Tebow not playing is YOUR preference. it really has nothing to do with him being selfish...it's YOU that is being selfish. YOU are the one that wants something to go a different way, even though you dont have all of the pertinent information. Maybe an injured Tebow is still better than a healthy Quinn. Do you know? Or would it just be YOUR preference?

[topscribe]

There's the real point. Tebow not playing is YOUR preference. it really has nothing to do with him being selfish...it's YOU that is being selfish. YOU are the one that wants something to go a different way, even though you dont have all of the pertinent information. Maybe an injured Tebow is still better than a healthy Quinn. Do you know? Or would it just be YOUR preference?

I don't agree. I believe Clay is making a valid point, and I don't believe it is from selfishness.

[claymore]

In Elway's second season in the League Denver faced Pittsburgh in Denver for a divisonal playoff game and he ended up with a severe hamstring pull which essentially made him a sitting duck in the pocket. He gutted out the rest that game which Denver ended up losing. Also Elway didn't have a great game.

I sure as hell would take an injuried Tim Tebow over a healthy Brady Quinn.

Depends on the injury. In this case, especially since Tebow was ineffective in the first half, I would have went with Quin.

I dont think he could have done much worse.

[CoachChaz]

Actually, at that point it didn't matter, anyway. The game was essentially over.
Tebow had nothing to prove. It would have been better for him to come out, IMO.

However, you are one of the few here, Clay, who is being consistent with your
views. It's amazing how one player is admired for playing through such serious
injuries, whereas it is ignored on others. You didn't do that . . .

I dont think anyone is going out of their way to admire Tim or any player for playing through injuries. it's just part of the game. I think we all expect it and I think we all expect players and coaches to be smart enough to NOT play a player if the injury is significant enough

[CoachChaz]

Depends on the injury. In this case, especially since Tebow was ineffective in the first half, I would have went with Quin.

I dont think he could have done much worse.

Maybe not, but when your line isnt doing ANYTHING, wouldn you prefer the mobile QB back there?

[claymore]

There's the real point. Tebow not playing is YOUR preference. it really has nothing to do with him being selfish...it's YOU that is being selfish. YOU are the one that wants something to go a different way, even though you dont have all of the pertinent information. Maybe an injured Tebow is still better than a healthy Quinn. Do you know? Or would it just be YOUR preference?

I think a QB with a bruised lung and torn rib cartlige needs to come out of the game. Thats why there is a backup QB. He was 9-26 and like 123 yards passing and a fumble. He wasnt getting it done.

I dont like Tebow the QB. I dont hide that. Call me whatever you want, but a QB that is injured, and performing badly against a bad defense needs to give it up to the #2.

[claymore]

Maybe not, but when your line isnt doing ANYTHING, wouldn you prefer the mobile QB back there?

An badly injured mobile QB that isnt that good at being a QB? No, I want to see what the #2 guy can do in the last game of the year.

[topscribe]

I dont think anyone is going out of their way to admire Tim or any player for playing through injuries. it's just part of the game. I think we all expect it and I think we all expect players and coaches to be smart enough to NOT play a player if the injury is significant enough

Well, I do admire Tebow for the way he is willing to play through such pain. I
question his wisdom for doing so, however, in those circumstances.

Roethlisberger's situation, for instance, was different: His team still had a
chance in a one-and-done game.

But I also admire Clay for his consistency. He was critical of Orton for not
getting the hell off the field with his rib injuries, and he has not changed his
view simply because it's Tebow now. I have disagreed with Clay to a degree
about both players, respectively, but at least he is consistent.

[topscribe]

Maybe not, but when your line isnt doing ANYTHING, wouldn you prefer the mobile QB back there?

The more mobile QB wasn't doing much, either. I would prefer the better passer
with a quicker release. And, more important, I would prefer not risking further
injury in a game where the other team had a four TD lead by halftime . . .

[CoachChaz]

An badly injured mobile QB that isnt that good at being a QB? No, I want to see what the #2 guy can do in the last game of the year.

Once again...this is speculation. We cant predict how "bad" it was for him

[BroncoWave]

I would be willing to bet pretty much anything that had Tebow come out of the game, some of these very same posters would be questioning his toughness and why he didn't stay out there.

[claymore]

Once again...this is speculation. We cant predict how "bad" it was for him

I disagree. I think a Bruised lung, and torn rib cartilage is a pretty bad injury for a QB.

Its a different story if he still performs. But he wasnt performing prior to or after the injury.

[claymore]

I would be willing to bet pretty much anything that had Tebow come out of the game, some of these very same posters would be questioning his toughness and why he didn't stay out there.

Anyone who questions Tebows toughness doesnt know anything about him.

[BroncoNut]

bruised lungs? lmao. that's pulmonary hemmorrghing. This is getting crazy.

[broken12]

This might be proof that he needs to learn to be more of a pocket presence ......only run when needed or live a short nfl career. This might be the green light to bring in a nfl pocket passer, let's get manning!

[MasterShake]

Big deal. I got a paper cut the other day and it was really buggin my mouse click finger. I barely got through the day and had to use some scotch tape as makeshift band aid. Wussy.

[Foochacho]

I think it is great that we are just hearing about this. Shows he is not making excuses for his bad play. Any other qb would bring it up in his presser. I like accountability and those that realize their faults will work hard to correct them.

Also the injury happened in the pocket. Not on a designed run or scramble. The pocket sometimes seems like the most dangerous place for injury. If we want him to learn to throw from the pocket we need a line that can give him one to stay in.

[claymore]

Big deal. I got a paper cut the other day and it was really buggin my mouse click finger. I barely got through the day and had to use some scotch tape as makeshift band aid. Wussy.

You are a mobile clicker, it shouldnt have affected your work to much.

[Foochacho]

Big deal. I got a paper cut the other day and it was really buggin my mouse click finger. I barely got through the day and had to use some scotch tape as makeshift band aid. Wussy.

Next time use super glue.

[Foochacho]

This might be proof that he needs to learn to be more of a pocket presence ......only run when needed or live a short nfl career. This might be the green light to bring in a nfl pocket passer, let's get manning!

He was in the pocket.

[Dzone]

How right or wrong was Phil Simms when he pronounced prior to the game "Denver has the best offensive line in the NFL"?
I bring this up because Tebow hammered in that game. Was it the O line or Tebows fault?

[NightTrainLayne]

Ive thought he was selfish on a number of occasions, I didnt mean to derail the thread, or your post. I believe what you posted, with what I added to it.

The excuse makers are the ones next year who will say "He never had an offseason because of the lockout and the Torn cartlige"... " He is basically a rookie even though its his 24th game" etc...

I dont mean to sound snarky... thats not my intent.

Good Grief Clay, you're the one making an excuse here. Certainly not Tebow. .. and nobody else that I've seen.

[TXBRONC]

I would be willing to bet pretty much anything that had Tebow come out of the game, some of these very same posters would be questioning his toughness and why he didn't stay out there.

That's probably a pretty safe bet. Some people might be inclined to question his toughness even if it was Fox that gave him the hook or a doctor's decision which takes the decision out the hands of both the player and the coach.

[claymore]

Good Grief Clay, you're the one making an excuse here. Certainly not Tebow. .. and nobody else that I've seen.

Just wait. It will be an excuse. He wont make it, but his boi's will.

[NightTrainLayne]

This might be proof that he needs to learn to be more of a pocket presence ......only run when needed or live a short nfl career. This might be the green light to bring in a nfl pocket passer, let's get manning!

The OP specifically states that the hit happened while he was in the pocket. . . That logic fails.

[NightTrainLayne]

How right or wrong was Phil Simms when he pronounced prior to the game "Denver has the best offensive line in the NFL"?

That's off-topic, but it's been wrong all season.

They have played way above expectations, but I never bought in that they were the best.

However, I do believe this is the reason McCoy is getting multiple HC job interviews. He and Fox, while being ultra-conservative squeezed every ounce of ability out of those guys with scheme and whatever other tricks of the trade they had available.

[NightTrainLayne]

Just wait. It will be an excuse. He wont make it, but his boi's will.

**** his boi's. Since when did they matter?

And they haven't done so yet. . .your giving them the ammunition to shoot back at you.

[broncobryce]

Don't worry, cutler wouldve came out for sure. No matter the score

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[TXBRONC]

Big deal. I got a paper cut the other day and it was really buggin my mouse click finger. I barely got through the day and had to use some scotch tape as makeshift band aid. Wussy.

If you were really tough guy you would have just rubbed a little dirt or table dust on it.

[NightTrainLayne]

BTW, this is as good a place as any to profess my love for Claymore. He's a great guy. . .just wrong every once in a while.

[claymore]

Don't worry, cutler wouldve came out for sure. No matter the score

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Your obsession with the Bears QB is strange.

[weazel]

sounds foolish to me, Quinn should have been in. Game was over anyway.

[claymore]

BTW, this is as good a place as any to profess my love for Claymore. He's a great guy. . .just wrong every once in a while.

I love you too NTL. :salute:

[weazel]

If you were really tough guy you would have just rubbed a little dirt or table dust on it.

get the 'tussin!

[Dzone]

That's off-topic, but it's been wrong all season.

They have played way above expectations, but I never bought in that they were the best.

However, I do believe this is the reason McCoy is getting multiple HC job interviews. He and Fox, while being ultra-conservative squeezed every ounce of ability out of those guys with scheme and whatever other tricks of the trade they had available.

Agreed.
Ok, fixed the post.

[Dreadnought]

Jay Cutler suffered a torn MCL in last years playoffs in a lopsided loss and got yanked - quite correctly, too. He then got taken to the woodshed by boneheads throughout the world of fandom questioning his manhood.

I wish TT had been sat down if the extent of his injury was known - not because (God knows) we had any hope of winning that game behind Brady freakin' Quinn, but because TT is the future of the Broncos for 2012+ and you shouldn't risk that for a meaningless symbolic macho gesture.

[TXBRONC]

BTW, this is as good a place as any to profess my love for Claymore. He's a great guy. . .just wrong every once in a while.

Yeah he is good guy.

[claymore]

Jay Cutler suffered a torn MCL in last years playoffs in a lopsided loss and got yanked - quite correctly, too. He then got taken to the woodshed by boneheads throughout the world of fandom questioning his manhood.

I wish TT had been sat down if the extent of his injury was known - not because (God knows) we had any hope of winning that game behind Brady freakin' Quinn, but because TT is the future of the Broncos for 2012+ and you shouldn't risk that for a meaningless symbolic macho gesture.

Agreed 100%.

[Joel]

I dont care who you are, a bruised lung and torn rib cartlige affects how you throw/play football.

Tebow doesnt have many good statistical QB games, so its hard to tell if it affected him.
Wow, man, you REALLY hate the dude, huh? :rolleyes: You forgot to say that if he'd just thrown the ball sooner instead of running around until his great lines protection broke down he wouldn't have gotten hurt.

[claymore]

Wow, man, you REALLY hate the dude, huh? :rolleyes: You forgot to say that if he'd just thrown the ball sooner instead of running around until his great lines protection broke down he wouldn't have gotten hurt.

I love Tebow, I just think he is a bad QB. I think you are correct in saying he should have thrown the ball sooner. I really need to see some analysis on how much time he truly had. I dont think our line is as bad as ya'll make it out to be.

[BroncoNut]

Yeah he is good guy.

Yeah, I agree. I talk with him now and again via pm and time travel. good man

[Joel]

How right or wrong was Phil Simms when he pronounced prior to the game "Denver has the best offensive line in the NFL"?
I bring this up because Tebow hammered in that game. Was it the O line or Tebows fault?
My comment in that Game Day thread at the time was that that may be the stupidest thing I've ever heard Phil Simms say, which covers a LOT of ground. I then proceeded to quote it every time Tebow had to run out of a pocket collapsing even as he got the ball or are running backs got hit as soon as they got the handoff.

Phil Simms is a MORON who rode a Hall of Fame defence, good line and some great playmakers to two Super Bowl Rings (one of which he owes to Scott Norwood choking a chip shot FG.) I can pretty much guarantee he looked at Denvers #1 rushing yardage total last season and concluded "best offensive line in football." Never mind how many times McGahee or Tebow broke tackles or moved piles to turn -1 yards into +3.

[CoachChaz]

I love Tebow, I just think he is a bad QB. I think you are correct in saying he should have thrown the ball sooner. I really need to see some analysis on how much time he truly had. I dont think our line is as bad as ya'll make it out to be.

It's not the worst line...mostly just a young line. But on Saturday...it was a horrible line. Just one of those days

[TT15Superman]

sounds foolish to me, Quinn should have been in. Game was over anyway.

Actually, at that point it didn't matter, anyway. The game was essentially over.
Tebow had nothing to prove. It would have been better for him to come out, IMO..Actually, it does matter...to his teammates. Without knowing the extent of the injury at that time, as a player who wants the backing of his fellow soldiers, you play.

Likewise with the broken leg that Tebow had in high school. No one knew it was broken until the x-ray. You play unless you cannot walk. What happens if the x-ray shows nothing but a sprain?

Football is about guts and taking the hits...and getting back up. Otherwise, we'd love ping-pong as much. Golf, anyone? Please. How much guts does it take to stand behind the guy swinging the club at little whitey?

Anyone who doesn't think so, please collect your orange wedges and consolation medals for playing at the far side of the field. And don't forget to run through the human tunnel made by your mommy and daddy.

[claymore]

It's not the worst line...mostly just a young line. But on Saturday...it was a horrible line. Just one of those days

Ive seen the line break down because of Franklin mostly, but Far more than that Ive seen Tebow have an insane amount of time and still not make the throw.

I think its a mixture of Young line, and young QB... Both made each other look better and worse at times.

[CoachChaz]

Ive seen the line break down because of Franklin mostly, but Far more than that Ive seen Tebow have an insane amount of time and still not make the throw.

I think its a mixture of Young line, and young QB... Both made each other look better and worse at times.

No doubt there are times he holds on to it, but against NE...he barely had a chance to make a read. The line wasnt prepared for the stunts.

[Joel]

I love Tebow, I just think he is a bad QB. I think you are correct in saying he should have thrown the ball sooner. I really need to see some analysis on how much time he truly had. I dont think our line is as bad as ya'll make it out to be.
We'll have to agree to disagree there; Beadles and Walton have woefully unimpressed me from Day One, and I'm often perplexed the same people who call the 8 wins with Tebow an anomaly but the 5 losses a pattern turn right around and point to a few good games by them as evidence of "improvement." If our 34 start guards were held to the same standard as our 16 start QB they'd have been out the door at the end of LAST season.

A big reason Tebow AND McGahee have wildly exceeded my expectations is I think they had to do most of it on their own. Tebow had Decker to help early in the season and Thomas late, but the line... ugh.... :tsk:

[topscribe]

Actually, it does matter...to his teammates. Without knowing the extent of the injury at that time, as a player who wants the backing of his fellow soldiers, you play.

Likewise with the broken leg that Tebow had in high school. No one knew it was broken until the x-ray. You play unless you cannot walk. What happens if the x-ray shows nothing but a sprain?

Football is about guts and taking the hits...and getting back up. Otherwise, we'd love ping-pong as much. Golf, anyone? Please. How much guts does it take to stand behind the guy swinging the club at little whitey?

Anyone who doesn't think so, please collect your orange wedges and consolation medals for playing at the far side of the field. And don't forget to run through the human tunnel made by your mommy and daddy.

Tough guy, eh? I'm impressed! :rolleyes:

You are talking here to several guys who have played football. You don't
have to be a fool to be tough. We're talking about using a little wisdom here.

[claymore]

We'll have to agree to disagree there; Beadles and Walton have woefully unimpressed me from Day One, and often perplexed by how the same people who all the 8 wins with Tebow an anomaly but the 5 losses a pattern turn right around and point to a few good games by them as evidence of "improvement." If our 34 start guards were held to the same standard as our 16 start QB they'd have been out the door at the end of LAST season.

A big reason Tebow AND McGahee have wildly exceeded my expectations is I think they had to do most of it on their own. Tebow had Decker to help early in the season and Thomas late, but the line... ugh.... :tsk:

Not all 8 wins were an anomaly. Like 4-5 were. He had 3 solid games. His losses were usually absolute blow outs too.

McGahee exceeded my expectations. Tebow did exactly what I feared.

[Thnikkaman]

Don't worry, cutler wouldve came out for sure. No matter the score

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Then he would have told off all of the 8-12 year old fans who wanted his autograph while flipping off their parents on the way out of the stadium.

[claymore]

Then he would have told off all of the 8-12 year old fans who wanted his autograph while flipping off their parents on the way out of the stadium.

That would have been Plummer!

[BORDERLINE]

i'm proud of Tim for staying in and tuffing it out. If your gonna be the leader and take the reins of a team you better put up or shut up. Now I get he was injured and could have come out if he wanted to and I for one would not have jumped on him for it. It shows ths kid is for real. I'm sure it will heal in the next month didn't Romo have the same injury? He will have a full of season and I hope he comes back stronger than ever and better at passing. So he can "COMPETE" in training camp. BS

Now maybe this is not the thread to do it in but really, He helped this team into the playoffs. He won a playoff game against the top rated defense on his arm and low skill set. And we still can't be "ALL IN" on this guy?

How many playoff wins does Matt Ryan have? What's his excuse for getting shut out in the playoffs? Are the Falcons gonna go into camp with competition for him? What about M.Stafford? how many playoff wins? The fact that i'm even saying playoffs should be enough for EVERYONE to get behind TEBOW.

I really don't get what else besides a Super Bowl victory this guy will have to do be supported by the nay sayers.

[claymore]

No doubt there are times he holds on to it, but against NE...he barely had a chance to make a read. The line wasnt prepared for the stunts.

That I dont know. I know when he did have time, he didnt do much with it.

[Zweems56]

That I dont know. I know when he did have time, he didnt do much with it.

Compare, instead, what percentage of passing downs that he actually "had time." I'm willing to guess that there were less than 10 occasions where he dropped back to pass AND had time to get the ball out without being severely pressured.

[claymore]

i'm proud of Tim for staying in and tuffing it out. If your gonna be the leader and take the reins of a team you better put up or shut up. Now I get he was injured and could have come out if he wanted to and I for one would not have jumped on him for it. It shows ths kid is for real. I'm sure it will heal in the next month didn't Romo have the same injury? He will have a full of season and I hope he comes back stronger than ever and better at passing. So he can "COMPETE" in training camp. BS

Now maybe this is not the thread to do it in but really, He helped this team into the playoffs. He won a playoff game against the top rated defense on his arm and low skill set. And we still can't be "ALL IN" on this guy?

How many playoff wins does Matt Ryan have? What's his excuse for getting shut out in the playoffs? Are the Falcons gonna go into camp with competition for him? What about M.Stafford? how many playoff wins? The fact that i'm even saying playoffs should be enough for EVERYONE to get behind TEBOW.

I really don't get what else besides a Super Bowl victory this guy will have to do be supported by the nay sayers.

Sorry, but backing into the playoffs doesnt do it for me. I need to see him be a much, much better QB on a consistent basis. His absolute very best game (Pitt) needs to be more of the norm.

[VonSackemMiller]

Tebow did the right thing to stay and fight with his team, Brady Quinn wouldnt have done shit. Im sure the guys will go even harder for him now.

[claymore]

Compare, instead, what percentage of passing downs that he actually "had time." I'm willing to guess that there were less than 10 occasions where he dropped back to pass AND had time to get the ball out without being severely pressured.

If it was only 10 occasions, I think they would have sacked him more than 4 times, and he would have had more fumbles. I think 2.9 seconds is the avg time to expect your line to hold? I saw maybe 2 plays where he didnt have that.

[HammeredOut]

Yeah, he should have went out. Fine line between being tough, and being selfish.

Hopefully it doesnt interfere with his offseason development. I can hear the excuses already.

It is selfish to not give the Broncos the truth about his injury.

[pnbronco]

That would have been Plummer!

Sorry Clay but that would have been Cutler. I know you hate Jake, but in this case as in seeing it with my own eyes over and over again. Cutler was the jerk over and over and Jake had a bad day here and there but it made all the news when he did.

I wonder what Shanny did to keep the news from reporting all the crap that Cutler did?

Anyway back to topic. I hope Tim is OK and that there are no complications with this injury. Also I would hope in the future he uses wisdom on when to stay and when to leave, esp since the game was so out of reach at that point.

[claymore]

It is selfish to not give the Broncos the truth about his injury.

Ive never bruised my lung, or torn rib cartilage, but I imagine the pain was pretty bad.

He should have taken himself out.

[claymore]

Sorry Clay but that would have been Cutler. I know you hate Jake, but in this case as in seeing it with my own eyes over and over again. Cutler was the jerk over and over and Jake had a bad day here and there but it made all the news when he did.

I wonder what Shanny did to keep the news from reporting all the crap that Cutler did?

Anyway back to topic. I hope Tim is OK and that there are no complications with this injury. Also I would hope in the future he uses wisdom on when to stay and when to leave, esp since the game was so out of reach at that point.

Sorry, ive never seen Cutler flip off fans. Plummer had a history of anger issues, and hitting women. Until I read that Cutler does it, Is say Plummer is more likely.

[Thnikkaman]

That would have been Plummer!

http://blindgossip.com/?p=35876

[NightTerror218]

I dont know if you anyone of you have had this injury before? But it gets worse over time and initially is just really sore. Plenty of QBs play on broken ribs which is more painful then torn cartridge in the ribs. The bruised lungs and fluid build up would not have been immediate also and would also have been worse over time IMO since it takes time for it to build up. I have not has bruised lung but I have had the other two. the broken rib was worse because it hurt to move and breathe (depending on severity of break).

[NightTerror218]

Ive never bruised my lung, or torn rib cartilage, but I imagine the pain was pretty bad.

He should have taken himself out.

Torn rib cartilage not as bad as broken rib, IMO from having both.

[jlarsiii]

Meh, the true extent of the injury wouldn't have been known until after the game. Tebow would not have let them know the extent of the injury during the game so that he could continue to play.

Still, in the situation the decision by Tebow to keep playing probably wasn't the best. This doesn't bode well for the future considering the type of physical pounding Tebow will take over a season running the read-option offense...

[NightTerror218]

Meh, the true extent of the injury wouldn't have been known until after the game. Tebow would not have let them know the extent of the injury during the game so that he could continue to play.

Still, in the situation the decision by Tebow to keep playing probably wasn't the best. This doesn't bode well for the future considering the type of physical pounding Tebow will take over a season running the read-option offense...

When I broke my rib playing rugby, i did not feel sore till after the game and was not in serious pain until I moved wrong couple days later and broke the rib the rest of the way.

[TT15Superman]

Tough guy, eh? I'm impressed! :rolleyes:

You are talking here to several guys who have played football. You don't
have to be a fool to be tough. We're talking about using a little wisdom here.Well, that's why this is an open forum.

One man's fool is another's tough guy. You think what you want, but what truly matters is if his teammates think he is a fool or not. I say not. And in the end, crunch time, they know what they got in #15.

And about "You are talking here to several guys who have played football", so what? If little Johnny gets a boo-boo, do you tell him to man-up or come over for a hug? Just sayin'. I know what I tell my son.

[claymore]

http://blindgossip.com/?p=35876

I cant see it from Work Tink.

[topscribe]

Well, that's why this is an open forum.

One man's fool is another's tough guy. You think what you want, but what truly matters is if his teammates think he is a fool or not. I say not. And in the end, crunch time, they know what they got in #15.

And about "You are talking here to several guys who have played football", so what? If little Johnny gets a boo-boo, do you tell him to man-up or come over for a hug? Just sayin'. I know what I tell my son.

Well, the point is not how tough the player is. As Clay said, if one does not
consider Tebow tough, then one does not know Tebow. But that is not the
issue. The issue is wisdom. Some of us do not think it was wise that Tebow
stay in the game when the game is effectively over with a four touchdown
deficit and the defense pinning their ears back because they know it's
going to be a passing game from then on. You live to play another day.

[TXBRONC]

Sorry Clay but that would have been Cutler. I know you hate Jake, but in this case as in seeing it with my own eyes over and over again. Cutler was the jerk over and over and Jake had a bad day here and there but it made all the news when he did.

I wonder what Shanny did to keep the news from reporting all the crap that Cutler did?

Anyway back to topic. I hope Tim is OK and that there are no complications with this injury. Also I would hope in the future he uses wisdom on when to stay and when to leave, esp since the game was so out of reach at that point.

I disagree. Cutler may have been jerk but he is far and away a better and more talented quarterback than Plummer ever was. He also works harder than Plummer ever did. What did Shanahan do to keep a lid on Plummer absences from workouts and his lack of preparation for games?

[HORSEPOWER 56]

It is selfish to not give the Broncos the truth about his injury.

Ummm, what? Do you really think Tebow knew after the hit that he had a bruised lung and torn cartilage? More like his ribs hurt but the combination of the adrenaline, the cold, and being in a playoff game kept him feeling like he could go. I doubt strongly that he or anyone else knew how bad it was until he got checked out afterward.

Remember, it doesn't matter what Tebow says. If he was noticeably hurt, Fox could've pulled him at any time. Apparently both Fox and Tebow thought he was good to play. Do you think Fox would've left Tim out there, knowing he was hurt, just to boost Tim's ego? If there was any coaching staff this year that didn't cater to players and fans it was the Broncos. They made a very unpopular decision to start Orton in the first place, then made another potentially controversial one with the players in benching him for Tebow.

This isn't about pride, selfishness, or stupidity. This isn't sending your QB back out on the field after he's knocked unconscious without testing him for a concussion just because he says he's "good to go". This is much ado about nothing. I'd be willing to bet every Bronco player on that field is nursing some injury and played with pain week in and week out.

So Tebow didn't take himself out of the game when he could (obviously) still play. He's not a quitter. If the coach sits you because you're hurt, so be it, but NOBODY would respect a guy who takes HIMSELF out...

Seriously though, does anyone honestly think Quinn could've done any better? I read some stuff in this thread about Quinn being a better passer with a quicker release. Obviously, it's been too long since some folks watched Brady Quinn take a snap from center in something other than a preseason game...

[NightTerror218]

I this happened on the 3 DL sack, they even said Tebow looked a little slow after that pancaking getting up.

[TXBRONC]

Ummm, what? Do you really think Tebow knew after the hit that he had a bruised lung and torn cartilage? More like his ribs hurt but the combination of the adrenaline, the cold, and being in a playoff game kept him feeling like he could go. I doubt strongly that he or anyone else knew how bad it was until he got checked out afterward.

Remember, it doesn't matter what Tebow says. If he was noticeably hurt, Fox could've pulled him at any time. Apparently both Fox and Tebow thought he was good to play. Do you think Fox would've left Tim out there, knowing he was hurt, just to boost Tim's ego? If there was any coaching staff this year that didn't cater to players and fans it was the Broncos. They made a very unpopular decision to start Orton in the first place, then made another potentially controversial one with the players in benching him for Tebow.

This isn't about pride, selfishness, or stupidity. This isn't sending your QB back out on the field after he's knocked unconscious without testing him for a concussion just because he says he's "good to go". This is much ado about nothing. I'd be willing to bet every Bronco player on that field is nursing some injury and played with pain week in and week out.

So Tebow didn't take himself out of the game when he could (obviously) still play. He's not a quitter. If the coach sits you because you're hurt, so be it, but NOBODY would respect a guy who takes HIMSELF out...

Seriously though, does anyone honestly think Quinn could've done any better? I read some stuff in this thread about Quinn being a better passer with a quicker release. Obviously, it's been too long since some folks watched Brady Quinn take a snap from center in something other than a preseason game...

I was going to say something similar. If a player pulls himself from a game it's not going to look good to his teammates.

I certainly don't want to rip Fox for not pulling him out either.

[rjent]

Ummm, what? Do you really think Tebow knew after the hit that he had a bruised lung and torn cartilage? More like his ribs hurt but the combination of the adrenaline, the cold, and being in a playoff game kept him feeling like he could go. I doubt strongly that he or anyone else knew how bad it was until he got checked out afterward.

Remember, it doesn't matter what Tebow says. If he was noticeably hurt, Fox could've pulled him at any time. Apparently both Fox and Tebow thought he was good to play. Do you think Fox would've left Tim out there, knowing he was hurt, just to boost Tim's ego? If there was any coaching staff this year that didn't cater to players and fans it was the Broncos. They made a very unpopular decision to start Orton in the first place, then made another potentially controversial one with the players in benching him for Tebow.

This isn't about pride, selfishness, or stupidity. This isn't sending your QB back out on the field after he's knocked unconscious without testing him for a concussion just because he says he's "good to go". This is much ado about nothing. I'd be willing to bet every Bronco player on that field is nursing some injury and played with pain week in and week out.

So Tebow didn't take himself out of the game when he could (obviously) still play. He's not a quitter. If the coach sits you because you're hurt, so be it, but NOBODY would respect a guy who takes HIMSELF out...

Seriously though, does anyone honestly think Quinn could've done any better? I read some stuff in this thread about Quinn being a better passer with a quicker release. Obviously, it's been too long since some folks watched Brady Quinn take a snap from center in something other than a preseason game...

Not arguing for you or against you, just adding fuel to the informational fire! ....


Team spokesman Patrick Smyth said that while he couldn't confirm the exact extent or nature of the injuries because of team policy, he acknowledged that Tebow finished the game in considerable pain.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/tim-tebow-denver-broncos-played-through-injuries-in-playoff-loss-to-new-england-patriots-nfl-playoffs-011812

[dogfish]

Depends on the injury. In this case, especially since Tebow was ineffective in the first half, I would have went with Quin.


of course you would have gone with quinn-- all year you've been dying for him to go in so you can stare at his butt in those tight pants. . .


:welcome:

[TXBRONC]

of course you would have gone with quinn-- all year you've been dying for him to go in so you can stare at his butt in those tight pants. . .


:welcome:

He's been warned of the consequences of being honorary.



Keep being so hard headed and I wont come down to El Paso to kick you in the ass with my dick skin boots.

[Ravage!!!]

Honestly, who could tell? I think its bad that no one could see the difference.

[BORDERLINE]

Sorry, but backing into the playoffs doesnt do it for me. I need to see him be a much, much better QB on a consistent basis. His absolute very best game (Pitt) needs to be more of the norm.

backing IN after a 1-4 start??? RUBBISH:tsk:

clay, QB's are gonna have bad games some have bad seasons. We went to the playoffs with this "college offense" and a QB who "can't throw". Give him a time to grow. I wonder what Vikings fans are saying about Ponder a 12th overall pick? I wonder what the JAX fans are saying about Gabbert. I'm sure in a perfect world rookie a QB comes in and wins a SB. Yes Tebow has a lot of hype around him and easily could have folded after the Lions game but he stayed persistent and won.

[dunk7]

I blame the coaching staff not yanking him whether they knew about the injury or not. If you are afraid to let the guy pass and continue with the run first mentality when you are down by 20+ points, why wouldn't you put in the guy who is a better pocket passer and open up the playbook.

And as for the previous post...I'd call losing 3 straight and relying on another team to win a game backing into the playoffs...What's your definition? We went to the playoffs with our messed up offence because of our defense, our kicker and maybe 7 good Tebow drives. I think he was mostly consistent...consistently mediocre. He did show flashes vs. Minny and Pittsburgh but flashes aren't going to get it done when teams will be better prepared next year.

[rjent]

I blame the coaching staff not yanking him whether they knew about the injury or not. If you are afraid to let the guy pass and continue with the run first mentality when you are down by 20+ points, why wouldn't you put in the guy who is a better pocket passer and open up the playbook.

And as for the previous post...I'd call losing 3 straight and relying on another team to win a game backing into the playoffs...What's your definition? We went to the playoffs with our messed up offence because of our defense, our kicker and maybe 7 good Tebow drives. I think he was mostly consistent...consistently mediocre. He did show flashes vs. Minny and Pittsburgh but flashes aren't going to get it done when teams will be better prepared next year.

My definition was we won the games we needed to to get to the playoffs before the 3 game slide. We lost Dawk during that time and to be honest, I don't think we ever recovered. We didn't back into anything, we won what we won and it was better that the rest of the AFC West. Pretty simple .... :beer:

[BORDERLINE]

My definition was we won the games we needed to to get to the playoffs before the 3 game slide. We lost Dawk during that time and to be honest, I don't think we ever recovered. We didn't back into anything, we won what we won and it was better that the rest of the AFC West. Pretty simple .... :beer:

I completely agree. If we would not have won those 8 games we would not be in the Playoffs. And Tebow had nothing to do with the Pitt game We WON that on Praters leg.

[wayninja]

The OP specifically states that the hit happened while he was in the pocket. . . That logic fails.

Maybe this shows then that he CAN'T be a pocket passer?

It's gotta be one or the other.

[Dapper Dan]

If Tebow leaves the game and Quinn comes in people assume it's because "Tebow played poorly and the injury is a lie".

[Dapper Dan]

He plays through injury he's hurting his team. He does charity work while he should be practicing. Blah. Blah. Blah.


* * *
“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.”

Stuart Chase

[MOtorboat]

Tebow is a tough dude. There's no denying that. It's a lot like Ben Roethlisberger. I get flamed because I'm a "hater," but I want nothing more than for Tebow to become a Roethlisberger-like quarterback. Tebow needs to pattern his game after a guy like that, especially the passing ability.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I blame the coaching staff not yanking him whether they knew about the injury or not. If you are afraid to let the guy pass and continue with the run first mentality when you are down by 20+ points, why wouldn't you put in the guy who is a better pocket passer and open up the playbook.

And as for the previous post...I'd call losing 3 straight and relying on another team to win a game backing into the playoffs...What's your definition? We went to the playoffs with our messed up offence because of our defense, our kicker and maybe 7 good Tebow drives. I think he was mostly consistent...consistently mediocre. He did show flashes vs. Minny and Pittsburgh but flashes aren't going to get it done when teams will be better prepared next year.

They have been talking about Tebow's injury extensively on tv today, and one thing Drew Soicher said was that Tebow threw more passes after the injury than before.

[wayninja]

Tebow is a tough dude. There's no denying that. It's a lot like Ben Roethlisberger. I get flamed because I'm a "hater," but I want nothing more than for Tebow to become a Roethlisberger-like quarterback. Tebow needs to pattern his game after a guy like that, especially the passing ability.

I don't think you are a hater, MO, just misguided. You need to accept Tim Tebow as your personal QB.

[broken12]

This might be proof that he needs to learn to be more of a pocket presence ......only run when needed or live a short nfl career. This might be the green light to bring in a nfl pocket passer, let's get manning!

The OP specifically states that the hit happened while he was in the pocket. . . That logic fails.


Well it was a series of hits through the game and the season....the one did the damage but the season he had running and the way he runs was too physical for hi. To withstand all season.....on 850 today they talked about how he was actually ailing since the chiefs game and probably was never recovered ......I like what he brings to the game but not so often 6-9 actual designed runs a game.

[MOtorboat]

I don't think you are a hater, MO, just misguided. You need to accept Tim Tebow as your personal QB.

It's actually, as I've learned, a psychological disorder.

[bcbronc]

Phil Simms is a MORON

Oh wait, the Cowboy fan hates the 2 time World Champion NYG QB. Shocking! :lol:

I do agree he was a bit out there calling Denver's OL one of the best in the league. It's no secret I have more happy thoughts than some when it comes to our OL, but even I say they're middle of the pack at best. Trending upwards though.

As to Tebow's injury, this has to end the claims that because Tebow is so big that he'll be able to take the pounding he does. I realize he got hurt in the pocket, but fact is he got hit and got hurt and would probably be missing at least one game if there were more to play (I'm assuming a bruised lung is serious enough to keep him out, but I'm not a doctor).

This time it was a hit in the pocket, next season it will probably be a hit out of it. When he's taking 20-25 hits per game, it accumulates. This has to factor into the direction EFX go this offseason, as far as bringing in a back-up that's a legit option.

[TXBRONC]

It's actually, as I've learned, a psychological disorder.

Your psychological disorders have nothing to do with Tebow.

[NightTrainLayne]

Maybe this shows then that he CAN'T be a pocket passer?

It's gotta be one or the other.

No it doesn't.

I agree that Tebow needs to become a better pocket passer.

However, the REASON he needs to become a better pocket passer is not to reduce his risk of injury.

My comment was directed at the reasoning why he needs to be a better pocket passer. The reason cannot be because he got injured in the pocket. That logic fails.

[TXBRONC]

No it doesn't.

I agree that Tebow needs to become a better pocket passer.

However, the REASON he needs to become a better pocket passer is not to reduce his risk of injury.

My comment was directed at the reasoning why he needs to be a better pocket passer. The reason cannot be because he got injured in the pocket. That logic fails.

I was just reading Mike Klis' mailbag and the question was posed this question:


Call it sour grapes if you like, but I really feel as if the Patriots knew what was going to happen before the Broncos even attempted it. What say you, Mike?---Joe, Castle Rock

Tebow got crushed -- injured even -- on a Patriot sandwich of nosetackle Vince Wilfork and linebacker Rob Ninkovich in the third quarter. Is it too far-fetched to say McDaniels helped make it happen?

http://www.denverpost.com/broncosmailbag/ci_19770861


The point of bring it up is that first and foremost he was injured because he got hit not because he's mobile quarterback. Because of copyright law couldn't give entire question and answer. Belicheck didn't hire McDaniels purely fatherly love. He did it for a competitive advantage. I didn't think it would matter that much but there is good chance that it helped. I think that helps but does not completely explains why Tebow had such a poor game. At the end of the day Denver still lost to a much better team irregardless of any other advantages they have had beyond personnel.

[wayninja]

No it doesn't.

I agree that Tebow needs to become a better pocket passer.

However, the REASON he needs to become a better pocket passer is not to reduce his risk of injury.

My comment was directed at the reasoning why he needs to be a better pocket passer. The reason cannot be because he got injured in the pocket. That logic fails.

Sorry, it was lame, but I was saying that tongue-in-cheek. Just pointing out that whatever happens will be used as evidence to support whatever extreme agenda people want it to.

[TXBRONC]

Sorry, it was lame, but I was saying that tongue-in-cheek. Just pointing out that whatever happens will be used as evidence to support whatever extreme agenda people want it to.

You should be begging to be forgiven for not making it clear what you meant.

Seriously, I agree it can be used to support whatever agenda you have.

[NightTrainLayne]

Sorry, it was lame, but I was saying that tongue-in-cheek. Just pointing out that whatever happens will be used as evidence to support whatever extreme agenda people want it to.

After I made my post, it donned on me that you might have been intentionally sarcastic. . .but by then I'd already put too much effort into it. :laugh:

[Joel]

If it was only 10 occasions, I think they would have sacked him more than 4 times, and he would have had more fumbles. I think 2.9 seconds is the avg time to expect your line to hold? I saw maybe 2 plays where he didnt have that.
Count that out and tell me (honestly and OBJECTIVELY) how many passes expect ANY QB can complete in <3 seconds. I know people think Tebow should take, and hit, more three step drops, but ONLY three step drops?

If a lot of people think it's acceptable for an offensive line to provide 2.9 seconds of pass protection I understand why I disagree so strongly with them about the quality of our line: Their "adequate" is my "garbage."

[MOtorboat]

Count that out and tell me (honestly and OBJECTIVELY) how many passes expect ANY QB can complete in <3 seconds. I know people think Tebow should take, and hit, more three step drops, but ONLY three step drops?

If a lot of people think it's acceptable for an offensive line to provide 2.9 seconds of pass protection I understand why I disagree so strongly with them about the quality of our line: Their "adequate" is my "garbage."

The average sack happens at about 2.5 seconds, so, I'm not sure what to tell you Joel, he has to get the ball out in that amount of time. Now, he can wiggle a little more time because of his mobility, but not that much more.

[GEM]

I hate Simms too. His kid is a red eyed albino. He should stop smoking the pot and hit a tanning bed. Plus any guy with a Longhorns tattoo on his ankle smells of the gai!! :laugh:

I also hate listening to the guy call our games. It seems he's always got $10K riding on the other team. Effing hate it.

[claymore]

Count that out and tell me (honestly and OBJECTIVELY) how many passes expect ANY QB can complete in <3 seconds. I know people think Tebow should take, and hit, more three step drops, but ONLY three step drops?

If a lot of people think it's acceptable for an offensive line to provide 2.9 seconds of pass protection I understand why I disagree so strongly with them about the quality of our line: Their "adequate" is my "garbage."

Our line IMO was pretty good. And 2.9 seconds falls in the line of acceptable.


"The median sack time has hovered between 2.7 and 2.8 seconds throughout the two years of the tracking.

Unless a quarterback falls down or drops the ball, a sack of 1.7 seconds or less generally involves a rusher coming completely free. On the other end of the spectrum, once a quarterback holds the ball for three seconds or longer, he’s had time to make his drop, survey the field, and work through his progressions. If it takes longer than that, either the play has broken down or the quarterback is trying to buy time because the play has not developed as he had expected it to."

http://footballoutsiders.com/under-pressure/2011/under-pressure

[claymore]

The average sack happens at about 2.5 seconds, so, I'm not sure what to tell you Joel, he has to get the ball out in that amount of time. Now, he can wiggle a little more time because of his mobility, but not that much more.

On a side note, his throwing motion used to take 1 second from begining to end (the ball leaving his hand). ***For all I know this could have changed.***

He isnt sacked a bunch, but his throws are TERRIBLE, so he might not ever have enough time to sit back there and be comfortable...

[Zweems56]

The average sack happens at about 2.5 seconds, so, I'm not sure what to tell you Joel, he has to get the ball out in that amount of time. Now, he can wiggle a little more time because of his mobility, but not that much more.

I think that you're using the wrong statistic to represent your argument. If it were the case that he needed to get rid of the ball in 2.5 seconds, it were the standard for every quarterback to get the ball out in 2.5 seconds, and the average sack takes 2.5 seconds, then there would be no such thing as a sack. That is unless the sack is faster than 2.5 seconds, or against a below average quarterback. Are you trying to say that NO quarterback EVER should be sacked after 2.5 seconds? It happens every week. Lots of times. To some really freaking good quarterbacks. I think that if you were to compare, statistically, the amount of times that Tebow had less than 2.5 seconds (or even 2.5 seconds) to release the ball last week to say... how many times Tom Brady experienced that last week, you will come up with astronomically different numbers. Our line last week was a goddamn sieve. The patriots front 7 had a DOMINATING performance last week. It doesn't matter how great the quarterback is, if the defense is getting to him in 2.5 seconds on every single play, unless the playcalling takes advantage of that aggressiveness (quick slants, etc), the quarterback is going to have a TERRIBLE game.

Now, to clarify. In no way am I saying that Tebow is elite, nor am I saying that he gets the ball out anywhere near as fast as he needs to. What I am saying, though, is that last week the Pats dominated the LOS from start to finish, and for about 75% of the game, Tebow didn't have a snowball's chance in hell. For comparison's sake, look at the Steelers game, where the offensive line actually got off the bus.

[rjent]

The average sack happens at about 2.5 seconds, so, I'm not sure what to tell you Joel, he has to get the ball out in that amount of time. Now, he can wiggle a little more time because of his mobility, but not that much more.

But that is only under blitz conditions and only if the O line and QB fail to recognize the oncoming blitz. There are a lot of way to combat that, but usually a Sack happens under blitz conditions. A receiver can only run about 5 yards before the sack takes place leaving the QB at the mercy of the Defense if he has no receiver(s) that recognize the blitz as well (which is where a lot the our problems is on our young and inadequate receivers).
Trying to put all of this on the QB is ludicrous IMO.. The QB needs a lot of help.

[claymore]

Tebow didnt get sacked at an above average rate. He took about 3 sacks a game which is avg.

Statistcally Tebows performance on Sat was the norm. He had his average game.

[NightTerror218]

tebow didnt get sacked at an above average rate. He took about 3 sacks a game which is avg.

Statistcally tebows performance on sat was the norm. He had his average game.

hahahhahahahahahahaha......*breath*
hahahahahahahaha

[claymore]

hahahhahahahahahahaha......*breath*
hahahahahahahaha

What about my post is incorrect?

[Zweems56]

Tebow didnt get sacked at an above average rate. He took about 3 sacks a game which is avg.

Statistcally Tebows performance on Sat was the norm. He had his average game.

He got sacked 5x and pressured so aggressively that he couldn't get the ball off effectively at least 8 more. If he were even a slightly less mobile quarterback, he would have been sacked 9-10 times. That is disgustingly bad line play.

[Zweems56]

Tebow didnt get sacked at an above average rate. He took about 3 sacks a game which is avg.

Statistcally Tebows performance on Sat was the norm. He had his average game.

Here's an official statistic update. 19 quarterback pressures.
26 passing attempts. Do you have any idea how high of a statistic 19 quarterback pressures is compared to the norm of a standard game? Edit: Apologies. With 5 sacks and 26 attempted passes, that's 31 passing attempts. It's still 2/3 of the passing attempts. Most games where a quarterback has 30 passes or more, that quarterback receives a whopping 8ish pressures.

[claymore]

Here's an official statistic update. 19 quarterback pressures.
26 passing attempts. Do you have any idea how high of a statistic 19 quarterback pressures is compared to the norm of a standard game?

That does seem like a fairly large amount. How many of those were past 3 seconds?

[NightTerror218]

What about my post is incorrect?

Then entire post. He is sacked an average of 3 times a game yes. But in November he was sacked 3 times the entire month. I do believe that was when we were winning.

As for Saturday being Tebows "average" game. that is far from the truth. He took 5 sacks (more then your average 3 per game). He was rushed what 19 times, that is incredibly high. Besides his 5 sacks the RBs were tackled 10 times behind the LOS. Damn Tebow for making his RB get hit behind the LOS. 19 out of 26 throws having pressure is a lot and he was having a "statistically" bad game on Saturday not average. 34% completion, just over 5 YPA.

[Zweems56]

That does seem like a fairly large amount. How many of those were past 3 seconds?

I don't have an official statistic on that, but what I do know is that I watched every freaking second of that terrible game. Our offensive line was offensive (pun intended). It's not just a fairly large amount. It's a disgustingly large amount. The guy just couldn't get the ball out of his hands fast enough. I actually felt bad for him. Dude was getting killed. For context here, I'm not a biased Tebow fan. I like the kid, and I hope he does well, but I'm not going to be biased toward him. This is an impartial observation. Orton would have been sacked 15+ times. Brady, at least 8-9. It was brutal.

[Zweems56]

Then entire post. He is sacked an average of 3 times a game yes. But in November he was sacked 3 times the entire month. I do believe that was when we were winning.

As for Saturday being Tebows "average" game. that is far from the truth. He took 5 sacks (more then your average 3 per game). He was rushed what 19 times, that is incredibly high. Besides his 5 sacks the RBs were tackled 10 times behind the LOS. Damn Tebow for making his RB get hit behind the LOS. 19 out of 26 throws having pressure is a lot and he was having a "statistically" bad game on Saturday not average. 34% completion, just over 5 YPA.

This too. There was a statistic on the game of tackles behind the LOS. It was something like 13 at the start of the 3rd quarter. That's an unheard of number.

[NightTrainLayne]

One other thing. Using the average/median time to a sack is not a full measure of how long QB's take to get their throws off.

By definition, that statistic only takes into account the universe of plays in which the QB is actually sacked. . .a much smaller sample than total passing plays. As stated above, this sample takes into account many plays where blitzers/defenders come unblocked and hit the QB very quickly. Those types of plays don't really reflect anything on any QB.

I don't know if it's out there, but I think a more telling statistic to apply to any QB's release would be an average of how long from snap to release the average COMPLETION takes, not how long the average sack takes. That number would tell us how long it usually takes to get a ball off AND complete it.

[wayninja]

I don't need statistics. Any one who watched the game against the patriots should very well see that our OL was not offering good protection. If you didn't see that, I can only conclude you have an agenda.

I'm not disputing that Tebow needs to make quicker decisions, but there were many more times than I'm comfortable with that a DT/DE was in the backfield before Tebow could even hand off the ball or take a step or two back. McGahee wasn't holding the ball too long, was he?

[NightTerror218]

I don't need statistics. Any one who watched the game against the patriots should very well see that our OL was not offering good protection. If you didn't see that, I can only conclude you have an agenda.

I'm not disputing that Tebow needs to make quicker decisions, but there were many more times than I'm comfortable with that a DT/DE was in the backfield before Tebow could even hand off the ball or take a step or two back. McGahee wasn't holding the ball too long, was he?

Did you see the option play Wilfork was in back field unblocked on an option play and was going to kill who ever had the ball, Tebow kept it and was crushed. Perfect example of that. And how the hell does that big ass dude get missed in blocking?

[claymore]

Then entire post. He is sacked an average of 3 times a game yes. But in November he was sacked 3 times the entire month. I do believe that was when we were winning.

As for Saturday being Tebows "average" game. that is far from the truth. He took 5 sacks (more then your average 3 per game). He was rushed what 19 times, that is incredibly high. Besides his 5 sacks the RBs were tackled 10 times behind the LOS. Damn Tebow for making his RB get hit behind the LOS. 19 out of 26 throws having pressure is a lot and he was having a "statistically" bad game on Saturday not average. 34% completion, just over 5 YPA.You are assuming that its all on the line. The tackles behind the LOS were on the offense as a whole. The game was out of hand at that point and I recall them saying that is why an option offense will never work in the NFL. Once your behind it is to easy to defend against.


One other thing. Using the average/median time to a sack is not a full measure of how long QB's take to get their throws off.

By definition, that statistic only takes into account the universe of plays in which the QB is actually sacked. . .a much smaller sample than total passing plays. As stated above, this sample takes into account many plays where blitzers/defenders come unblocked and hit the QB very quickly. Those types of plays don't really reflect anything on any QB.

I don't know if it's out there, but I think a more telling statistic to apply to any QB's release would be an average of how long from snap to release the average COMPLETION takes, not how long the average sack takes. That number would tell us how long it usually takes to get a ball off AND complete it.

If you find it let me know. From what ive read though 3 seconds should be the norm.

[TXBRONC]

Here's an official statistic update. 19 quarterback pressures.
26 passing attempts. Do you have any idea how high of a statistic 19 quarterback pressures is compared to the norm of a standard game? Edit: Apologies. With 5 sacks and 26 attempted passes, that's 31 passing attempts. It's still 2/3 of the passing attempts. Most games where a quarterback has 30 passes or more, that quarterback receives a whopping 8ish pressures.

This is why I brought up Klis' Mailbag from today. There is good argument to be made that Belichick hiring McDaniels helped in getting our snap count. If you've got that down that's got to give you at the very least a half second head start. I've posted this part of Klis' Mailbag already but I think applies to this portion of the discussion as well.


Call it sour grapes if you like, but I really feel as if the Patriots knew what was going to happen before the Broncos even attempted it. What say you, Mike? Joe, Castle Rock

Privately, some of the Broncos would agree with you, although this time the spy tactics weren't by video but by person. In particular, the Broncos thought Josh McDaniels had their tendencies on the silent count.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncosmailbag/ci_19770861

[Zweems56]

Edit: Deleted to merge 2 posts

[Zweems56]

You are assuming that its all on the line. The tackles behind the LOS were on the offense as a whole. The game was out of hand at that point and I recall them saying that is why an option offense will never work in the NFL. Once your behind it is to easy to defend against.



If you find it let me know. From what ive read though 3 seconds should be the norm.

This point is only valid when we're running the option. Our offensive line was getting manhandled LONG after we abandoned the option on Saturday. Empty backfield, I-form. Didn't matter one iota. There were larger problems to our offensive inefficiency than the fact that we run the option on approximately 25% of our snaps. Whether the pats had an edge on our snap count, or our offensive line had their heads up their asses, I won't begin to assume, but it most certainly was not the fault of a formation that we ran for 25% of our snaps.

One other thing. Using the average/median time to a sack is not a full measure of how long QB's take to get their throws off.

By definition, that statistic only takes into account the universe of plays in which the QB is actually sacked. . .a much smaller sample than total passing plays. As stated above, this sample takes into account many plays where blitzers/defenders come unblocked and hit the QB very quickly. Those types of plays don't really reflect anything on any QB.

I don't know if it's out there, but I think a more telling statistic to apply to any QB's release would be an average of how long from snap to release the average COMPLETION takes, not how long the average sack takes. That number would tell us how long it usually takes to get a ball off AND complete it.

This exactly. As I said before, taking the average time of a sack and assuming that that's how fast a quarterback ALWAYS needs to get the ball out of his hands is bunk. That statistic only takes into account plays where there was a sack. This doesn't take into account, at all, the 95% of the time that a quarterback drops back and DOESN'T get sacked. The number that we would want in order to judge Tebow's ability to get the ball out, would be the average time that it takes for him to get the ball out, and compare it to the average time that every other quarterback in the league does it. I can tell you right now, the average quarterback does not have an average snap-release time of 2.5 seconds.

[Superchop 7]

and we will put a dozen more QBs in the hospital if we dont fix the oline. We are going to see some serious defenses next year with a number 1 seed schedule. Heres a thought.......GET DECASTRO !

[TXBRONC]

This point is only valid when we're running the option. Our offensive line was getting manhandled LONG after we abandoned the option on Saturday. Empty backfield, I-form. Didn't matter one iota. There were larger problems to our offensive inefficiency than the fact that we run the option on approximately 25% of our snaps. Whether the pats had an edge on our snap count, or our offensive line had their heads up their asses, I won't begin to assume, but it most certainly was not the fault of a formation that we ran for 25% of our snaps.

If Klis is right McDaniels was able to the New England defense a heads up snap count that would give them an advantage over our offensive line. To me seems to be common sense that Belichick didn't hire McDaniels purely because he loves the little turd like a son. Personally I don't think we have bad offensive line in fact I think we have very good offensive line that had a bad day against a very good team that may have also had an advantage that might not have if McDaniels had not been hired two ago.

[Zweems56]

If Klis is right McDaniels was able to the New England defense a heads up snap count that would give them an advantage over our offensive line. To me seems to be common sense that Belichick didn't hire McDaniels purely because he loves the little turd like a son. Personally I don't think we have bad offensive line in fact I think we have very good offensive line that had a bad day against a very good team that may have also had an advantage that might not have if McDaniels had not been hired two ago.

I don't know.... Personally, I don't like to make excuses that are basically "well, it was out of our control. Couldn't do a thing about it." Personally, I didn't see enough "punch that dude in the mouth," from our offensive line.

[TXBRONC]

I don't know.... Personally, I don't like to make excuses that are basically "well, it was out of our control. Couldn't do a thing about it." Personally, I didn't see enough "punch that dude in the mouth," from our offensive line.

I'm not saying that sole reason. But I will also tell you that according to Klis some in the organization would say it gave the Patriots an edge. Also I said I think this is good offensive line that had a bad day. It happens. There were also plenty of games where both Orton and Tebow would have more 3.5 seconds to throw the football.

[claymore]

This point is only valid when we're running the option. Our offensive line was getting manhandled LONG after we abandoned the option on Saturday. Empty backfield, I-form. Didn't matter one iota. There were larger problems to our offensive inefficiency than the fact that we run the option on approximately 25% of our snaps. Whether the pats had an edge on our snap count, or our offensive line had their heads up their asses, I won't begin to assume, but it most certainly was not the fault of a formation that we ran for 25% of our snaps.


This exactly. As I said before, taking the average time of a sack and assuming that that's how fast a quarterback ALWAYS needs to get the ball out of his hands is bunk. That statistic only takes into account plays where there was a sack. This doesn't take into account, at all, the 95% of the time that a quarterback drops back and DOESN'T get sacked. The number that we would want in order to judge Tebow's ability to get the ball out, would be the average time that it takes for him to get the ball out, and compare it to the average time that every other quarterback in the league does it. I can tell you right now, the average quarterback does not have an average snap-release time of 2.5 seconds.

I cant find the exact information that I would like to have, like how long Tebow holds onto the ball... But In Cutlers case, from the same article I copied before it said the following.


Just ask Jay Cutler. Admittedly the Bears' quarterback has had plenty of problems with a leaky offensive line, but he also has created many of his own problems by holding the ball too long. In the past two years, more than half of Cutler's 82 sacks came when he held the ball for more than three seconds

This eludes to 3 seconds being the normal amount of time it takes from snap to throw. Anything after that is on the QB.

[Zweems56]

I cant find the exact information that I would like to have, like how long Tebow holds onto the ball... But In Cutlers case, from the same article I copied before it said the following.



This eludes to 3 seconds being the normal amount of time it takes from snap to throw. Anything after that is on the QB.

Alludes, you dirty hippie. Eluding is what Tebow and Cutler have to do because their offensive lines are made of swiss cheese in pass pro. :D

[claymore]

Alludes, you dirty hippie. Eluding is what Tebow and Cutler have to do because their offensive lines are made of swiss cheese in pass pro. :D

Whatever!!!

Anywho... Im not going to go out and say our offensive line is world beaters. Im just not sure how much of the sacks, and hurries fall on the shoulders of Tebow vs our OL.

Half of the reason people wanted Tebwo was because he was more mobile than Orton. If he cant throw the ball, his mobility doesnt really matter.

[catfish]

I cant find the exact information that I would like to have, like how long Tebow holds onto the ball... But In Cutlers case, from the same article I copied before it said the following.



This eludes to 3 seconds being the normal amount of time it takes from snap to throw. Anything after that is on the QB.

best I could find

long v short sacks through december

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/under-pressure/2011/under-pressure-0

edit:better numbers

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/under-pressure/2012/under-pressure-violence-rams

in short, Tebow gets sacked slightly above average on short and medium sacks, but way above average on long sacks.....I leave it up to you to argue why

pass time through week 10

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/under-pressure/2011/under-pressure-tebows-throws

[Zweems56]

Whatever!!!

Anywho... Im not going to go out and say our offensive line is world beaters. Im just not sure how much of the sacks, and hurries fall on the shoulders of Tebow vs our OL.

Half of the reason people wanted Tebwo was because he was more mobile than Orton. If he cant throw the ball, his mobility doesnt really matter.

I'm just not going to run a guy out of town because he got his shit pushed in on Saturday. The week before, he had his best game in the NFL, and he also had GREAT protection. No sacks, and any pressures, he scrambled out of and went along his merry way. Nothing is as good or as bad as it seems. My personal opinion is that we need a better guard to replace Beadles, and we need Kup back. Franklin needs a year of growth, and Clady needs to get back to form. A replacement at guard, and an offseason will do wonders for our offense IMHO, and wonders for Tebow as well.

[TXBRONC]

I'm just not going to run a guy out of town because he got his shit pushed in on Saturday. The week before, he had his best game in the NFL, and he also had GREAT protection. No sacks, and any pressures, he scrambled out of and went along his merry way. Nothing is as good or as bad as it seems. My personal opinion is that we need a better guard to replace Beadles, and we need Kup back. Franklin needs a year of growth, and Clady needs to get back to form. A replacement at guard, and an offseason will do wonders for our offense IMHO, and wonders for Tebow as well.

According to Elway Tebow isn't going anywhere. He will go into training camp as the presumed starter. It may not stay that way but it is his job to lose atp.

[Zweems56]

According to Elway Tebow isn't going anywhere. He will go into training camp as the presumed starter. It may not stay that way but it is his job to lose atp.

Yeah, that was directed more towards the fanbase that's ready to run him out of town because he hasn't been Peyton Manning yet. I think that we need to temper our opinions a little bit on both sides of the argument.

[claymore]

best I could find

long v short sacks through december

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/under-pressure/2011/under-pressure-0

edit:better numbers

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/under-pressure/2012/under-pressure-violence-rams

in short, Tebow gets sacked slightly above average on short and medium sacks, but way above average on long sacks.....I leave it up to you to argue why

pass time through week 10

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/under-pressure/2011/under-pressure-tebows-throws

In short our line isnt that good, and our QB holds onto the ball way to long.

[catfish]

In short our line isnt that good, and our QB holds onto the ball way to long.

I can get behind that.

I feel there is room for improvement at basically every spot on offense except the spot McGahee fills. Tebow isn't the only young player that needs to make strides this offseason to avoid walking papers, just as Teobw is not the only one who was hampered by the strike. Hopefully some of the guys start showing more consistency going into next year.

[catfish]

as to Elway working with Tebow, I have a picture in my head of Elway going 1 mississippi, 2 mississippi, HIT THE CHECKDOWN. Tebow looking for the home run every time is hurting the passing game. Gotta trust someone to make a play

[claymore]

I'm just not going to run a guy out of town because he got his shit pushed in on Saturday. The week before, he had his best game in the NFL, and he also had GREAT protection. No sacks, and any pressures, he scrambled out of and went along his merry way. Nothing is as good or as bad as it seems. My personal opinion is that we need a better guard to replace Beadles, and we need Kup back. Franklin needs a year of growth, and Clady needs to get back to form. A replacement at guard, and an offseason will do wonders for our offense IMHO, and wonders for Tebow as well.

Im with you as far as not running him out of town this year. Luck is the only other guy I would want in 2012.

[NightTerror218]

I can get behind that.

I feel there is room for improvement at basically every spot on offense except the spot McGahee fills. Tebow isn't the only young player that needs to make strides this offseason to avoid walking papers, just as Teobw is not the only one who was hampered by the strike. Hopefully some of the guys start showing more consistency going into next year.

How many of the long sacks also came from him scrambling after the 2.5 pressure was already on and he was moving. I saw many sacks where he avoided the first one and got hit by the second as he was trying to run.

[Zweems56]

In short our line isnt that good, and our QB holds onto the ball way to long.

Also compare Tebow to other young quarterbacks. Ponder was pretty damn bad as well. I think that Tebow's high sack percentage has more to do with his inexperience both in the pocket and as an NFL signal caller. I don't think that it's some insurmountable character flaw that he possesses, and no one else does. Chalk it up to him, essentially, being a rookie. Well that, and swiss cheese pass pro.

[Zweems56]

How many of the long sacks also came from him scrambling after the 2.5 pressure was already on and he was moving. I saw many sacks where he avoided the first one and got hit by the second as he was trying to run.

This as well. If you avoid the break the first tackle that hits you, that adds another second on every single time. Doesn't mean you're not going to get sacked, because you need to recover from the hit faster than another defender can hit you.

[catfish]

How many of the long sacks also came from him scrambling after the 2.5 pressure was already on and he was moving. I saw many sacks where he avoided the first one and got hit by the second as he was trying to run.

I am sure there are some of those, I am also sure there are some where he held the ball too long. There are probably also some that were coverage sacks. What it boils down to for me is that reality probably falls somewhere in the middle of the 2 camps. All the passing issues aren't because of Tebow, but some of them are.

I think his performance is in line with most QB's with his experience and next year will be the real test to see if he is still improving or has maxed out. Nothing earthshattering from the Catfish camp

[NightTerror218]

I am sure there are some of those, I am also sure there are some where he held the ball too long. There are probably also some that were coverage sacks. What it boils down to for me is that reality probably falls somewhere in the middle of the 2 camps. All the passing issues aren't because of Tebow, but some of them are.

I think his performance is in line with most QB's with his experience and next year will be the real test to see if he is still improving or has maxed out. Nothing earthshattering from the Catfish camp

damn reality

[NightTrainLayne]

best I could find

long v short sacks through december

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/under-pressure/2011/under-pressure-0

edit:better numbers

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/under-pressure/2012/under-pressure-violence-rams

in short, Tebow gets sacked slightly above average on short and medium sacks, but way above average on long sacks.....I leave it up to you to argue why

pass time through week 10

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/under-pressure/2011/under-pressure-tebows-throws

Interesting.

Only had time to look at the last set of numbers but they show median releases of 2.3 - 2.8 seconds.

Considering that the median sac time was in this same neighborhood, it looks as though Tebow for this set of weeks was doing well.

I'm surprised the numbers are that low, but who am I to argue. Maybe he doesn't have as far to go as we thought.