When Does the Improvement Start?

[spikerman]

I HATE to make another Tebow thread, but I was looking through the other ones and couldn't figure out where to put this.

We're hearing that the Broncos are going to work with Tebow in the offseason to improve his passing. We're also hearing that he's such a hard worker and all of this extra time is going to do wonders. I'm not doubting it, but my question is this -

How much time do the Broncos (and Tebow) take off between now and starting to work on his issues? He has so far to go, I wish they would start tomorrow, but I'm sure it will be a while. (Stay off the weights Timmy).

[catfish]

I HATE to make another Tebow thread, but I was looking through the other ones and couldn't figure out where to put this.

We're hearing that the Broncos are going to work with Tebow in the offseason to improve his passing. We're also hearing that he's such a hard worker and all of this extra time is going to do wonders. I'm not doubting it, but my question is this -

How much time do the Broncos (and Tebow) take off between now and starting to work on his issues? He has so far to go, I wish they would start tomorrow, but I'm sure it will be a while. (Stay off the weights Timmy).

I am not real sure what league rules are for the offseason, I am sure there is going to be a bit of time off first

[Magnificent Seven]

I think John Elway has plans to mentor Tim Tebow on technique in during the off season. I believe that Tebow will be training hard and harder. I would like for Tebow to be our great franchise quarterback.

[BroncoWave]

The improvement started during the season. Watch the tape of his first few games and some of the later games and try to say he didn't improve. The completion % never went up, but I think he became a much better passer as the season went on.

[MOtorboat]

Supposedly it started three or four years ago.

I don't see it. I'm skeptical too.

And there was very little improvement over the course of the season. Very litte. "Whoo-hoo, he only missed him by five yards this time!"

[spikerman]

I believe he can, and will, improve. I just wonder how much time will lapse before they get to work. I'm sure they all need a break, but he needs so much work I don't think they can afford to wait until OTA's.

[topscribe]

The improvement started during the season. Watch the tape of his first few games and some of the later games and try to say he didn't improve. The completion % never went up, but I think he became a much better passer as the season went on.

. . . as evidenced in the Patriots game . . .

[catfish]

. . . as evidenced in the Patriots game . . .

if we are going to use that game I suppose we might as well fire every last ****** on the team, becasue there are plenty more experience players who did horrible in that game. Denver was screwed as soon as NE went up by 3 scores and the only game plan they are capable of winning with went out the window.

[topscribe]

if we are going to use that game I suppose we might as well fire every last ****** on the team, becasue there are plenty more experience players who did horrible in that game. Denver was screwed as soon as NE went up by 3 scores and the only game plan they are capable of winning with went out the window.

Same argument, different quarterback . . .

[catfish]

Same argument, different quarterback . . .

are you referencing the fact that if it was a different QB we would be having the same argument? because I happen to agree with that

[BORDERLINE]

let's hope Tebow works his azz off like he is suppose to and come in blazing next year.

I look at it like this people, This year after the 1-4 start we where going no where and look what happened!!!!!! even if we would have not made the playoffs and have had a 7-9 record I would have voted to go with Teebs into next year.

Like everything Tebow he will be playing for his job the whole year. If he improves, which i'm really hoping he does. We will be a force!!!!!!!

[MOtorboat]

let's hope Tebow works his azz off like he is suppose to and come in blazing next year.

I look at it like this people, This year after the 1-4 start we where going no where and look what happened!!!!!! even if we would have not made the playoffs and have had a 7-9 record I would have voted to go with Teebs into next year.

Like everything Tebow he will be playing for his job the whole year. If he improves, which i'm really hoping he does. We will be a force!!!!!!!

Thankfully, he won't be pumping a book this offseason. His humanitarian efforts are awesome, but if they hinder his quarterback development, I won't give a shit.

Call me shallow, but I care about his quarterback play.

[bcbronc]

I'd guess Tebow will take 2-3 weeks off and then begin his offseason program. I'd expect/hope the coaches will be giving him some very specific things to work on.

I don't expect Elway will do anything with Tebow until after the draft. Maybe an afternoon or day here or there, but he needs to be breaking down film not teaching QB basics this time of year.

[silkamilkamonico]

I would imagine Tebow is going to spend a good amount of time in the Phillipines. I don't think it's good to focus on improving his game the entire offseason anyways. There's only so much he's going to get out of it.

[Dzone]

Depends on how many circumcisions he has scheduled.

[Dapper Dan]

Do people seriously think he'll spend all of his offseason in the Philippines? This is ignorant. What has happened that makes you think this?

[iLands]

As soon as possible isn't soon enough.

I look forward to updates and truly hope he will put forth the effort that some amongst us anticipate.

He will need to.

[bcbronc]

I would imagine Tebow is going to spend a good amount of time in the Phillipines. I don't think it's good to focus on improving his game the entire offseason anyways. There's only so much he's going to get out of it.

I don't agree, it's a job and should be 12 months a year. Take some time off to heal the body and mind and then get getting better.

Goes for every young guy on the team. Vets like Champ can do what he wants.

[Dapper Dan]

Depends on how many circumcisions he has scheduled.

This makes you look like a small minded idiot.

[Ziggy]

Tebow will put in the work. It's been his M.O. his entire life. The question is, what will Elway have him working on? I could care less about the throwing motion. I'd just like to see him come into next season with great footwork and an improvement in reading defenses, and going through progressions.

[Dapper Dan]

Tebow will put in the work. It's been his M.O. his entire life. The question is, what will Elway have him working on? I could care less about the throwing motion. I'd just like to see him come into next season with great footwork and an improvement in reading defenses, and going through progressions.

People are questioning every single thing they can about Tebow. When they start on his work ethic, you know it's getting stupid in here.

[bcbronc]

Tebow will put in the work. It's been his M.O. his entire life. The question is, what will Elway have him working on? I could care less about the throwing motion. I'd just like to see him come into next season with great footwork and an improvement in reading defenses, and going through progressions.

at this point, imo, mechanics have to be priority #1. He should be spending a lot of time watching and re-watching film, but until he can consistently get the ball out of his hand on time and accurately from under centre, his reading progressions won't matter.

[silkamilkamonico]

Do people seriously think he'll spend all of his offseason in the Philippines? This is ignorant. What has happened that makes you think this?

Ignorant? He has spent every summer of his life over there for at least 1 week.

Ignorant is thinking he is actually going to throw footballs and study game film the entire time in the offseason. As if any player would do that.

[MOtorboat]

Do people seriously think he'll spend all of his offseason in the Philippines? This is ignorant. What has happened that makes you think this?

It was hyperbolic, yes, but his throwing hasn't improved in four years, why is this offseason different?

[spikerman]

I'd guess Tebow will take 2-3 weeks off and then begin his offseason program. I'd expect/hope the coaches will be giving him some very specific things to work on.

I don't expect Elway will do anything with Tebow until after the draft. Maybe an afternoon or day here or there, but he needs to be breaking down film not teaching QB basics this time of year.

I would think that a lot of work needs to be done before the draft. I think how much he improves may affect the draft strategy.

[bcbronc]

People are questioning every single thing they can about Tebow. When they start on his work ethic, you know it's getting stupid in here.

who's questioning his work ethic?


Only sorta complaint I have on Tebow's work ethic would be sometimes it's more productive to work smarter, not harder. As long as Tebow isn't busting his butt under the watchful eye of his brother again this offseason, I'll be happy.

[spikerman]

People are questioning every single thing they can about Tebow. When they start on his work ethic, you know it's getting stupid in here.

Not sure if this is directed at me as the OP, but I'm not questioning his work eithic. I just want to know how long each side will want to wait before getting back to work.

[Medford Bronco]

Supposedly it started three or four years ago.

I don't see it. I'm skeptical too.

And there was very little improvement over the course of the season. Very litte. "Whoo-hoo, he only missed him by five yards this time!"


I want to see those basic throws competed and not be afraid to be thrown.

So a few deep passes vs Pitt does not sell me either.

also improvment will be when there are only a few of the option plays are run.

I should live in Missouri, the Show Me State. I want to see it, not read or hear about it.

[Medford Bronco]

Not sure if this is directed at me as the OP, but I'm not questioning his work eithic. I just want to know how long each side will want to wait before getting back to work.

I dont think you are questioning his work ethic. You are questioning his NFL ablity to throw. Fair question.

[spikerman]

I dont think you are questioning his work ethic. You are questioning his NFL ablity to throw. Fair question.

I have seen him make NFL caliber throws so I know he has the potential. What I want to see is him doing it consistently. I really want this kid to succeed. That's why I'm anxious for him to get back to work. :)

[bcbronc]

I would think that a lot of work needs to be done before the draft. I think how much he improves may affect the draft strategy.

That's a good point and you could be right. My guess would be that Fox and Elway have a pretty good idea right now on what they want to do at the QB position. But Elway (iirc) did say that the regular season doesn't allow for working on mechanics, so you could be right.

Of course, it doesn't have to be Elway working first hand with Tebow to do that pre-draft evaluation. McCoy or Gase could do the dirty work and report back to EFX on progress.

At this point we don't even know how much time Elway plans on spending with Tebow. He said he's interesting in working with Tebow in the offseason, but does that mean 2 weeks in June, one weekend a month, or having Tebow move in with him and working out every day?

[Dzone]

This makes you look like a small minded idiot.

This makes you out to be a petty *******

[Nomad]

Why does it matter if Tebow goes to the Philippines?!?

[silkamilkamonico]

Why does it matter if Tebow goes to the Philippines?!?


It doesn't. At all. Nobody cared about John Elway laying in golf tournaments during the offseason when he was young.

Players need to have lives, just like 100% of the working force in the world.

[Nomad]

It doesn't. At all. Nobody cared about John Elway laying in golf tournaments during the offseason when he was young.

Players need to have lives, just like 100% of the working force in the world.

I agree but I've seen other people throw the Philippine comment out as if Tebow should devote all his time to the BRONCOS.

[BroncoWave]

. . . as evidenced in the Patriots game . . .

I guess the Steelers game didn't happen. And I forgot how many balls we dropped against the Pats.

[Ziggy]

at this point, imo, mechanics have to be priority #1. He should be spending a lot of time watching and re-watching film, but until he can consistently get the ball out of his hand on time and accurately from under centre, his reading progressions won't matter.

I disagree. He can get the ball out a full second or two earlier by getting back in his stance and finding the open receiver quickly. It's going to be a lot easier to do that if he isn't thinking about his mechanics the whole time he's playing.

[rcsodak]

I HATE to make another Tebow thread, but I was looking through the other ones and couldn't figure out where to put this.

We're hearing that the Broncos are going to work with Tebow in the offseason to improve his passing. We're also hearing that he's such a hard worker and all of this extra time is going to do wonders. I'm not doubting it, but my question is this -

How much time do the Broncos (and Tebow) take off between now and starting to work on his issues? He has so far to go, I wish they would start tomorrow, but I'm sure it will be a while. (Stay off the weights Timmy).

You mean between necessary downtime/scouting/contracts/SB party/personnel moves/combine/workouts/draft?

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[spikerman]

You mean between necessary downtime/scouting/contracts/SB party/personnel moves/combine/workouts/draft?

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I would imagine that not every coach is going to be involved with every facet of the offseason. He could have Gase or McCoy out there working with him while the FO does its job. I would fully expect some time off. My question is, how much time off should he, and the team, take before getting back to work? In my opinion, I think the time off is important, but he's got a lot of work to do and I hope they get out there much sooner than later.

[rcsodak]

Ignorant? He has spent every summer of his life over there for at least 1 week.

Ignorant is thinking he is actually going to throw footballs and study game film the entire time in the offseason. As if any player would do that.

Why do people think working out with JE is going to fix what ails him?

If it was that easy, anybody could be a qb. Heck, grab decker while theyre at it. He could be the backup qb.
:rolleyes:

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[rcsodak]

I guess the Steelers game didn't happen. And I forgot how many balls we dropped against the Pats.

Maybe next time you'll concentrate better. :tsk:

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[spikerman]

RC, you weren't always this bitter. What happened bud?

[wayninja]

Same argument, different quarterback . . .

Different quarterback, different results. Worst team in the NFL to a first round playoff win...

[wayninja]

Why do people think working out with JE is going to fix what ails him?

If it was that easy, anybody could be a qb. Heck, grab decker while theyre at it. He could be the backup qb.
:rolleyes:

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If it were that easy to get past your first playoff game with a good quarterback, wouldn't we be seeing Aaron Rogers next week? Where is Drew Brees?

[Joel]

I have seen him make NFL caliber throws so I know he has the potential. What I want to see is him doing it consistently. I really want this kid to succeed. That's why I'm anxious for him to get back to work. :)
That's about where I'm at, too. I don't know the answer to your original question, but the roller coaster this season has been for fans was a hundred times more intense for ALL the players. And, rightly or wrongly, nowhere has it been more intense than with the 24 year old player spawning internet memes and overseas newspaper articles. Physically and mentally, these guys need, and have earned, a break. I don't know the League rules on offseason workouts either, but if nothing else the NFLPA has made sure the players won't be working out and studying game film eight hours a day until preseason.

The young guys especially need time to absorb this years lessons as well as decompress from the playoff run, but when Tebow's on the field, who will be working out with him? Decker, for one, who's one week removed from a sprained MCL; I think it's probably a good idea to wait a week or two before having him run 50 routes a day. Clady, who looked like a shadow of himself all last season, which I suspect was largely due to a leg injury suffered in preseason from which he never seemed to fully recover.

The improvement hopefully starts when Elway sits down with him to watch tape and discuss each things he didn't have time to make an exclusive focus while preparing for each weeks game. "This WHOLE MONTH, we work ONLY on footwork, constantly, until it's PERFECT." Yeah, not when we're playing the Raiders in three days. How soon they start that, I don't know; when EFX thinks the players are ready and union rules allow.

[topscribe]

I guess the Steelers game didn't happen. And I forgot how many balls we dropped against the Pats.

What makes a "catchable" ball is the type of spiral thrown. Not only how
stable and straight the spin is but how fast the rotation is. Tebow throws
a lot of wobbly passes with a slow rotation, and while the "on the money"
passes are what we see in highlights, there are many others that are not
well placed. One has to wonder why, for instance, Decker, who came into the
pros with a reputation for not dropping passes, has been dropping them. Has
he all the sudden developed stone hands, or are other factors contributing
toward his problems?

[bcbronc]

I disagree. He can get the ball out a full second or two earlier by getting back in his stance and finding the open receiver quickly. It's going to be a lot easier to do that if he isn't thinking about his mechanics the whole time he's playing.

I agree completely. That's why imo he needs to spend the offseason perfecting his mechanics, specifically his footwork, to the point they're consistent and natural.


RC, you weren't always this bitter. What happened bud?

Obama.

[wayninja]

What makes a "catchable" ball is the type of spiral thrown. Not only how
stable and straight the spin is but how fast the rotation is. Tebow throws
a lot of wobbly passes with a slow rotation, and while the "on the money"
passes are what we see in highlights, there are many others that are not
well placed. One has to wonder why, for instance, Decker, who came into the
pros with a reputation for not dropping passes, has been dropping them. Has
he all the sudden developed stone hands, or are other factors contributing
toward his problems?

Really? Really???

Now we are going to claim that professional athletes can't catch objects with identical shapes and mass moving at similar speeds unless it is rotating just so?

It's Tebows fault that passes are dropped. Just another brick in the assinine wall of ludicrousness regarding Tebow.

Really?

I mean, I have no problem if you want to point out passes that land at a recievers feet or 20 feet over his head. But this just goes beyond any ability I have to take seriously.

[topscribe]

I disagree. He can get the ball out a full second or two earlier by getting back in his stance and finding the open receiver quickly. It's going to be a lot easier to do that if he isn't thinking about his mechanics the whole time he's playing.

To a degree. However, I believe he needs to come to recognize what "open" is.
That is, a receiver who is about to come open but isn't quite yet. Or a spot
where a receiver is expected to be -- throwing into a spot and expecting the
receiver to be there when the ball arrives. That kind of thing.

It involves a lot of processes that are difficult to teach, if they can be taught
at all. Which is why, I believe, many QBs who were successful in college fail in
the pros. That is very difficult to learn, especially in the enhanced speed on
this level . . .

[BroncoWave]

Really? Really???

Now we are going to claim that professional athletes can't catch objects with identical shapes and mass moving at similar speeds unless it is rotating just so?

It's Tebows fault that passes are dropped. Just another brick in the assinine wall of ludicrousness regarding Tebow.

Really?

I mean, I have no problem if you want to point out passes that land at a recievers feet or 20 feet over his head. But this just goes beyond any ability I have to take seriously.

Agreed. That was a really ridiculous post. NFL WRs are paid to catch the football when it hits them in the hands. Blaming a dropped pass on the QB is one of the dumber things I have read in a while.

[Lancane]

Really? Really???

Now we are going to claim that professional athletes can't catch objects with identical shapes and mass moving at similar speeds unless it is rotating just so?

It's Tebows fault that passes are dropped. Just another brick in the assinine wall of ludicrousness regarding Tebow.

Really?

I mean, I have no problem if you want to point out passes that land at a recievers feet or 20 feet over his head. But this just goes beyond any ability I have to take seriously.

Actually Ninja there is a precedence to the argument...I'm not going to say that all the dropped passes by his receivers are indeed his fault, but there is statistical proof that a football thrown with a tighter spiral is not only more accurate but also far easier to catch. Having an identical shape means absolutely squat and similar speeds? Come on', one of Tebow's biggest problems is that he throws too few balls with zing, most of the time he throws far too soft, so that will effect the overall ability to deliver the ball and for the pass to being easier to catch. That's like telling a pitcher that it's just as easy to catch a slider or screwball to a fastball, which it's not. Have you ever touched a classic pigskin, I'm talking a good old fashion 1930's football? They're skin is smoother and not as tight, plus they're fatter and unsound regarding aerodynamics, it wasn't meant to be thrown compared to the balls of today, with the passing game the football had to evolve and at times Tebow throws like he's got one of the classics in his hand, which was great for the era when a receiver could push off the corner for separation...but now? Having a defender up your butt with a wobbly pass coming at you is far harder then a ball barreling at you perfectly.

[Joel]

What makes a "catchable" ball is the type of spiral thrown. Not only how
stable and straight the spin is but how fast the rotation is. Tebow throws
a lot of wobbly passes with a slow rotation, and while the "on the money"
passes are what we see in highlights, there are many others that are not
well placed. One has to wonder why, for instance, Decker, who came into the
pros with a reputation for not dropping passes, has been dropping them. Has
he all the sudden developed stone hands, or are other factors contributing
toward his problems?
It may be a combination of things. It's certainly harder to catch end over end punts, but people talk like that's all Tebow throws (at least you don't claim he NEVER throws spirals, as many people say, hyperbolically or not.) Any wobble on that deep ball to Thomas against Chicago? I sure didn't see any, but it went off the palm of one hand and the fingers of the other into the turf anyway. In the grand scheme, however, all it means to a starting QB who wants to keep his job is he must try even harder to get tight spirals on EVERY pass. As with so much else in our low frequency passing, the rule is: You will have few opportunitie; make ALL of them count.

Funny thing though: When Tebow first took over, Decker was catching EVERYTHING (after the Arrowhead game he had the second most TDs in the League, even as rarely as we throw) and Thomas caught NOTHING. Around the Vikings and Bears games, they swapped: Now Thomas is soaked in Stickum and Decker is Flipper.

I can only speculate about the cause, but I know they're both second year players who missed pretty much all their rookie seasons due to injury. I also know Thomas was very publicly vocal about Tebow encouraring him after the deep drop against the Bears, and has played well since. I further know that Decker had a lot of interviews--some national--after he caught the longest pass of Tebows career, for the game winning TD. That's a pretty bright spotlight for a guy in his early 20s whom no one outside Minnesota had ever heard of three years ago.

I dunno, guys; we've got the youngest offense in the NFL, and our defence isn't much older (with the notable exceptions of our starting secondary and DJ.) There are tons of questions we can't answer until halfway through next year, maybe the year AFTER that. I'm definitely warming to the idea of spending some of what I hear is a lot of cap money for some star vets. We've made our youth movement, but you can't win titles with rookies.

[spikerman]

That's about where I'm at, too. I don't know the answer to your original for fans, but a hundred times more intense for ALL the players. And, rightly or wrongly, nowhere has it been more intense than with the 24 year old player spawning internet memes and overseas newspaper articles. Physically and mentally, these guys need, and have earned, a break. I don't know the League rules on offseason workouts either, but if nothing else the NFLPA has made sure the players won't be working out and studying game film eight hours a day until preseason.

The young guys especially need time to absorb this years lessons as well as decompress from the playoff run, but when Tebow's on the field, who will be working out with him? Decker, for one, who's one week removed from a sprained MCL; I think it's probably a good idea to wait a week or two before having him run 50 routes a day. Clady, who looked like a shadow of himself all last season, which I suspect was largely due to a leg injury suffered in preseason from which he never seemed to fully recover.

The improvement hopefully starts when Elway sits down with him to watch tape and discuss each things he didn't have time to make an exclusive focus while preparing for each weeks game. "This WHOLE MONTH, we work ONLY on footwork, constantly, until it's PERFECT." Yeah, not when we're playing the Raiders in three days. How soon they start that, I don't know; when EFX thinks the players are ready and union rules allow.

Good post. I don't know that union rules would come into play, though, if these workouts were voluntary. I know there are rules for mandated workouts, but I don't think the NFL could tell a player that he couldn't work with the coaches if he wanted to on his own.

[claymore]

if we are going to use that game I suppose we might as well fire every last ****** on the team, becasue there are plenty more experience players who did horrible in that game. Denver was screwed as soon as NE went up by 3 scores and the only game plan they are capable of winning with went out the window.

Most of our team is scrubs. There are a handful of elite guys on our team. We dont want them to be the long term solution either.

BTW, we all knew NE was going to score. Brady is a BMF'er. Our problem is we couldnt keep him on the field.

[BroncoJoe]

The Broncos hold their end of season press conference at noon (MST) today. I'm sure they'll talk a bit about how they plan to move forward, and I'm sure Elway will be asked about his plans with Tebow this offseason.

[topscribe]

It may be a combination of things. It's certainly harder to catch end over end punts, but people talk like that's all Tebow throws (at least you don't claim he NEVER throws spirals, as many people say, hyperbolically or not.) Any wobble on that deep ball to Thomas against Chicago? I sure didn't see any, but it went off the palm of one hand and the fingers of the other into the turf anyway. In the grand scheme, however, all it means to a starting QB who wants to keep his job is he must try even harder to get tight spirals on EVERY pass. As with so much else in our low frequency passing, the rule is: You will have few opportunitie; make ALL of them count.

Funny thing though: When Tebow first took over, Decker was catching EVERYTHING (after the Arrowhead game he had the second most TDs in the League, even as rarely as we throw) and Thomas caught NOTHING. Around the Vikings and Bears games, they swapped: Now Thomas is soaked in Stickum and Decker is Flipper.

I can only speculate about the cause, but I know they're both second year players who missed pretty much all their rookie seasons due to injury. I also know Thomas was very publicly vocal about Tebow encouraring him after the deep drop against the Bears, and has played well since. I further know that Decker had a lot of interviews--some national--after he caught the longest pass of Tebows career, for the game winning TD. That's a pretty bright spotlight for a guy in his early 20s whom no one outside Minnesota had ever heard of three years ago.

I dunno, guys; we've got the youngest offense in the NFL, and our defence isn't much older (with the notable exceptions of our starting secondary and DJ.) There are tons of questions we can't answer until halfway through next year, maybe the year AFTER that. I'm definitely warming to the idea of spending some of what I hear is a lot of cap money for some star vets. We've made our youth movement, but you can't win titles with rookies.

You might notice in my post that I allowed for the highlighted throws, such
as the one to DT you pointed out here. And that "longest pass of Tebow's
career" was actually the product of a long run by DT. All Tebow had to do
was to put it out right in front of him about 10 yards down field, and DT did
the rest.

There are a lot of problems with Tebow's delivery, and I don't know whether
he can overcome the muscle memory he has developed over all those tens
of thousands of reps he has done in his career. I hope so. This offseason
will tell, but in the meantime, I wouldn't stop shopping for a QB if I were EFX.

[SOCALORADO.]

Tebow needs a true QB camp. Like the one that GB puts their QBs through.
It needs to be a full offseason process too. Like 4 months long.
And i think thats what John will do. Should be a huge process.
In the meantime, EFX will go grab a veteran or possibly sign Matt Flynn.
And i highly doubt GB will franchise Flynn. Finley is a FA, and he is much more
than likely to get the GB franchise tag.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

What Tebow needs to do is get together with all of his WRs and TEs and work on chemistry and timing. Practice doesn't provide that. The good old fashioned all the WRs line up and run a route one at a time while the QB throws doesn't provide that.

Tebow had no offseason work with the WRs he ended up throwing to this year. None. He tried to get some reps in with the WRs and flew 2 of them down to FL. Unfortunately neither was on the roster for Tim's first start (Gaffney and Lloyd). DT was hurt and Decker and Royal stayed in Denver to practice with Orton (who they thought was going to be the starter for the year).

Chemistry and anticipating/knowing your WRs is EVERYTHING in the NFL. A simple "hey Tim, when the CB plays me with outside leverage I'm going to do this and I'll expect the ball here", or "Hey DT, if the coverage is this, I want to you to push hard upfield until the CB flips his hips, then break off the route, sit down in the zone, and I'll hit you here..." is huge. Tebow and the WRs had none of that this season. These are the things that make The Manning to Harrison/Wayne, the Brady to Welker/Gronk/Hernandez, and the Rodgers to Jennings/Finley connections look so natural and easy.

Like I said before, if we go through the 2012 season and there is no improvement, I'll lead the charge to Dove Valley with pickforks and torches, but I want to see what all of these young players do, with a real offseason and real chance to build chemistry, without a QB controversy and coaching change. I think if this organization and the players commit to improving instead of changing everything up and scrapping what works to try something new, we'll come out of this smelling like a rose.

Essentially we went 8-8 with a QB and WRs/TEs that had very little chemistry and very little practice together. We saw glimpses, yes sometimes few and far between, of what our offense and defense could be. Once we get them a little more experience and a coaching, their consistency and production will go up.

[topscribe]

Tebow needs a true QB camp. Like the one that GB puts their QBs through.
It needs to be a full offseason process too. Like 4 months long.
And i think thats what John will do. Should be a huge process.
In the meantime, EFX will go grab a veteran or possibly sign Matt Flynn.
And i highly doubt GB will franchise Flynn. Finley is a FA, and he is much more
than likely to get the GB franchise tag.

No doubt the virtual lack of a preseason hurt Tebow. I hope this next
offseason will make a difference for him . . .

[SOCALORADO.]

What Tebow needs to do is get together with all of his WRs and TEs and work on chemistry and timing. Practice doesn't provide that. The good old fashioned all the WRs line up and run a route one at a time while the QB throws doesn't provide that.

Tebow had no offseason work with the WRs he ended up throwing to this year. None. He tried to get some reps in with the WRs and flew 2 of them down to FL. Unfortunately neither was on the roster for Tim's first start (Gaffney and Lloyd). DT was hurt and Decker and Royal stayed in Denver to practice with Orton (who they thought was going to be the starter for the year).

Chemistry and anticipating/knowing your WRs is EVERYTHING in the NFL. A simple "hey Tim, when the CB plays me with outside leverage I'm going to do this and I'll expect the ball here", or "Hey DT, if the coverage is this, I want to you to push hard upfield until the CB flips his hips, then break off the route, sit down in the zone, and I'll hit you here..." is huge. Tebow and the WRs had none of that this season. These are the things that make The Manning to Harrison/Wayne, the Brady to Welker/Gronk/Hernandez, and the Rodgers to Jennings/Finley connections look so natural and easy.

Like I said before, if we go through the 2012 season and there is no improvement, I'll lead the charge to Dove Valley with pickforks and torches, but I want to see what all of these young players do, with a real offseason and real chance to build chemistry, without a QB controversy and coaching change. I think if this organization and the players commit to improving instead of changing everything up and scrapping what works to try something new, we'll come out of this smelling like a rose.

Essentially we went 8-8 with a QB and WRs/TEs that had very little chemistry and very little practice together. We saw glimpses, yes sometimes few and far between, of what our offense and defense could be. Once we get them a little more experience and a coaching, their consistency and production will go up.

I wiill totally agree on the timing and relationships with his recievers was non exisistant. They all had to learn on the fly, and its really amazing that they had as much success as they did.
These guys need to get into an offseason regiment for a few months and really, really get on the same page.

[broncosfannum24]

You can see strides in a player in the pros then what you would in college, mostly because they can just worry about football.

College, you can only have certain amount of workouts, practices at certain times, and instead of worrying about the defenses your facing tommrrow, your to busy craming for that calculus test you have on monday.

Which is a reason why you see those late round bloomers in the draft do so well in the league, bottom line you have more time to focus on your craft. Which is a plus for tebows development.

And unfortuantely for tebow his problem in college was he didnt have to change his mechanics or play style in college cause it produced results, not that he doesnt have the ability to get better in NFL

[BroncoWave]

It honestly amazes me that people think he didn't get better as the season went on. Yeah he was still inconsistent, but if you look at how awful he was against Miami and Detroit then look at some of the good games he played later on in the season (Chicago, Minny, Pitt) it's clear he improved some. People still seem to forget he has started exactly 16 games in the NFL. I think he is a better QB now than he was before his first start this season, and that's really all you can ask for from a young QB in his first year as the starter.

[jhildebrand]

. . . as evidenced in the Patriots game . . .

For a guy who incessantly defended, and still does, Orton and the lack of blocking at the LOS, this would be a bit hypocritical or double standard TOP.

In fact this game was atrocious in all three phases.

[NightTerror218]

I HATE to make another Tebow thread, but I was looking through the other ones and couldn't figure out where to put this.

We're hearing that the Broncos are going to work with Tebow in the offseason to improve his passing. We're also hearing that he's such a hard worker and all of this extra time is going to do wonders. I'm not doubting it, but my question is this -

How much time do the Broncos (and Tebow) take off between now and starting to work on his issues? He has so far to go, I wish they would start tomorrow, but I'm sure it will be a while. (Stay off the weights Timmy).

Knowing Tebow is probably already starting it but reviewing tape. But before he starts to work with a coach I would think a week or two.

[topscribe]

For a guy who incessantly defended, and still does, Orton and the lack of blocking at the LOS, this would be a bit hypocritical or double standard TOP.

In fact this game was atrocious in all three phases.

It certainly was. But then, we were talking about Tebow. If I'm going to talk
about the rest of the team, it will be because I'm considering the rest of the
team, not to make Tebow look better than he is . . .

And since you claim I am still defending Orton on this board, would you please
provide some specific examples -- either that or recant your statement? I
have assiduously avoided discussing Orton. A little honesty, please . . .

[jhildebrand]

It certainly was. But then, we were talking about Tebow. If I'm going to talk
about the rest of the team, it will be because I'm considering the rest of the
team, not to make Tebow look better than he is . . .

But when we were talking only about Orton you certainly made sure to talk about the rest of the team :rolleyes: Whatever. I wont play this game with you.

As for Tebow specifically, I want to see what the kid can do. He found a way, with a worse roster IMHO, to do what Cutler and Orton before couldn't-win enough to get in.

He led a team in SD who didn't get their asses handed to them! In fact they won. A place that has been a house of horrors as of late.

As a BRONCO fan I happen to like making the PO's. I happen to like it even more when they win which they did against Pitt. It isn't always pretty but then again the 34 games that preceeded Tebow weren't pretty at all.

To say the kid hasn't improved seems to be coming from those who haven't liked him at all and haven't had any objectivity.

Go back and look at Tebow against Miami then watch the Pitt game. He can take snaps under center. The post throw to DT was something we were told he just can't do.

Tebow has improved. Tebow will continue to improve! The question will be if it will be enough!

[topscribe]

But when we were talking only about Orton you certainly made sure to talk about the rest of the team :rolleyes: Whatever. I wont play this game with you.

As for Tebow specifically, I want to see what the kid can do. He found a way, with a worse roster IMHO, to do what Cutler and Orton before couldn't-win enough to get in.

He led a team in SD who didn't get their asses handed to them! In fact they won. A place that has been a house of horrors as of late.

As a BRONCO fan I happen to like making the PO's. I happen to like it even more when they win which they did against Pitt. It isn't always pretty but then again the 34 games that preceeded Tebow weren't pretty at all.

To say the kid hasn't improved seems to be coming from those who haven't liked him at all and haven't had any objectivity.

Go back and look at Tebow against Miami then watch the Pitt game. He can take snaps under center. The post throw to DT was something we were told he just can't do.

Tebow has improved. Tebow will continue to improve! The question will be if it will be enough!

I didn't say Tebow hasn't improved. I am only saying he hasn't done so
enough -- yet.

Look, if you want to worship the kid, fine. Worship him. But don't come
around with your puke about Orton when I'm only trying to provide some
realistic analyses. I. Do. Not. Want. To. Discuss. Orton.

Wow. Can we just try to maintain some intelligent discussion here? :tsk:

[jhildebrand]

Wow. Can we just try to maintain some intelligent discussion here? :tsk:

I guess you define intelligent then eh Top? :confused:

The problem is you want to change the argument to suit you. Of course all people are going to talk about with you is Orton seeing how diligent you were in defending him and your record and all.

AND Of course we are going to spew all the same 'PUKE' you gave us about Orton. After all, what was good for the gander then should be good for the GOOSE now. I am sorry your skin and constitution aren't strong enough to stomach that.

[topscribe]

I guess you define intelligent then eh Top? :confused:

The problem is you want to change the argument to suit you. Of course all people are going to talk about with you is Orton seeing how diligent you were in defending him and your record and all.

AND Of course we are going to spew all the same 'PUKE' you gave us about Orton. After all, what was good for the gander then should be good for the GOOSE now. I am sorry your skin and constitution aren't strong enough to stomach that.

I've had you on Ignore before. Maybe it is time again. I don't need your punk
attacks on me because of my past defense of Orton. In case you have not
heard, Orton is gone. I am not discussing Orton. If you want to discuss him,
go find someone else with which to discuss him. Leave me alone with that.

[jhildebrand]

I've had you on Ignore before. Maybe it is time again. I don't need your punk
attacks on me because of my past defense of Orton. In case you have not
heard, Orton is gone. I am not discussing Orton. If you want to discuss him,
go find someone else with which to discuss him. Leave me alone with that.

Ahh the good ol JR tactic. :shakinginboots:

The only one attacking here, as usual, is you Top. You constantly resort to calling people punks, puke and more.

I am not discussing Orton. I am discussing you and the way you want to casually change the argument or act as if your history doesn't come into play. I am talking about how you want to handle things from a different perspective BECAUSE you KNOW you dont have a leg to stand on otherwise.

I am talking about how you want to judge Tebow based on ONE game where everything went wrong and act as if it were completely Tebow's fault alone all while ignoring the fact that your prince charming er Orton couldn't even bother beating the JaWalrus led Raiders in a HOME game.

I guess I thought you were mature enough to at least have some objectivity. I am not sure what I was thinking seeing how since you came back was only to trash the team you supposedly root for. Maybe those who question the timing of your return were right afterall!

This is simply about your being disingenuous! If that makes you put me on iggy, I could not care less. I am not here for a popularity contest. I am here to discuss the team I actually ROOT for-the ENTIRE team and try to do it with most of the individuals that have some objectivity!

[iLands]

And that "longest pass of Tebow's
career" was actually the product of a long run by DT.


Did you read? He's talking about the Decker pass at KC.

;)

[BroncoNut]

I'd like to see Tim take some time off and just unwind. I think a retreat to the Buddhist temples of India would do him and the Broncos wonders.

[topscribe]

Did you read? He's talking about the Decker pass at KC.

;)

No, I guess I didn't read it very well. Oh well . . . *sigh*

I don't remember that play at the moment, so I should not have commented.

[BroncoNut]

No, I guess I didn't read it very well. Oh well . . . *sigh*

I don't remember that play at the moment, so I should not have commented.

now you're getting it. why don't you take a little hiatus for a while Top?

[topscribe]

now you're getting it. why don't you take a little hiatus for a while Top?

I just might do that with certain people bringing Orton out of the blue and
attacking me with it, even though what I am discussing has nothing to do
with him. Wow.

But then, why should I do that? THEY can go. I was here first.

[BroncoNut]

I just might do that with certain people bringing Orton out of the blue and
attacking me with it, even though what I am discussing has nothing to do
with him. Wow.

But then, why should I do that? THEY can go. I was here first.

eff em Top. Eff Mo and the horse he rode in on. he sure is a badass behind that computer screen, aint he?

[jhildebrand]

bringing Orton out of the blue and
attacking me with it,

Not out of the blue given your history. Not attacking you either. Just feels that way because you want to TRY to CHANGE THE ARGUMENT now because it no longer suits you.


But nut is right, F me.

[topscribe]

eff em Top. Eff Mo and the horse he rode in on. he sure is a badass behind that computer screen, aint he?

When I am endeavoring objectively to discuss our present QB, I'm just not
going to tolerate someone misrepresenting what I said about Orton. They are
NOT going to get me to respond in an effort to correct them, and then get
into a big debate about Orton all over again. They can troll and bait all they
want, but all that is going to get them with me is Iggy. I am NOT going to
discuss Orton or any of their misrepresentations of what I said back then . . .

[BroncoWave]

What's the point of posting on a message board if you are just going to put everyone who disagrees with you or questions you on ignore? If I wanted to go somewhere where everyone agreed with me, I'd just talk to a mirror all day.

[topscribe]

What's the point of posting on a message board if you are just going to put everyone who disagrees with you or questions you on ignore? If I wanted to go somewhere where everyone agreed with me, I'd just talk to a mirror all day.

I've been talking with those who have been disagreeing with me all day. None
of them are on Ignore.

But then, because of their advanced reading skills, they understand that
throwing up the past and misrepresenting another poster is not disagreeing.

Try to catch up . . .

[NightTrainLayne]

:focus:

Let's get this tread back on topic please.

And, no need for anyone to tell us all how they were on topic and it's the other party's fault for taking it off topic.

Just back to topic please. The topic is Tebow, and when will we see evidence of his improvement.

[catfish]

:focus:

Let's get this tread back on topic please.

And, no need for anyone to tell us all how they were on topic and it's the other party's fault for taking it off topic.

Just back to topic please. The topic is Tebow, and when will we see evidence of his improvement.

I feel there has been improvement in certain areas all year, it all boils down to keep trending up. if he plateaus, or falls off for year, not just 2-3 games it will be time to start looking again

[NightTrainLayne]

I feel there has been improvement in certain areas all year, it all boils down to keep trending up. if he plateaus, or falls off for year, not just 2-3 games it will be time to start looking again

I agree with this.

Tebow has that undefinable character quality that is rare. But when you find it, you try to polish everything else.

Elway had it. I argued the better part of my life with Marino and Montana fans that this quality put Elway ahead of them. Elway's teams won, where a lesser leader at the QB spot would have not had the same victories.

Roethlisberger has it (just looking at on-the-field). Look at his first season. I'm guessing his stats were marginally better than Tebow's, but the Steelers had to design a gameplan around him that severely limited his attempts and kept him out of 3rd and long trouble spots.

I think Plummer had just a glimmer of it. .. but he didn't have the drive and work ethic to really put it to use.

As long as Tebow is improving, and as long as he has the drive to work his ass off, I think you've got to give him the chance. He seems to understand the game, and has a knack for making the play when it is the utmost crucial. I would argue that many guys with talent just don't make the play when it absolutely has to be made. They don't have the inner confidence and calm that not only allows them to play their best at the most stressful time, but also inspires those around them to play at a higher level as well.

That quality is indefineable. But like the famous Supreme Court Judge when asked to define pornography. . . "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it."

To answer, When? I think this next season.

If he doesn't make strides this next season, then it will be time to move on.

[Nick]

While he made a lot of improvements not near what he needs to be a QB in this league.

He needs to show he can improve in all areas or look for Elway to get his QB and start the rebuilding process.

I do not think the Broncos can afford to go a year with Tebow and it failing because 2 years after while they are rebuilding people are going to get anxious and in result it might end up having Bowlen cleaning house.

I want what is best for our team and Broncos are not in a good place right now. While they overachieved and won a great game at home against Pittsburgh that could ultimately hurt them in the long run. I love to see my Broncos win and never want them to lose. It was a great ride with Tebow and unorthodox play calling to play to Tebows strengths. It would have been a lot more beneficial if we lost and had a higher draft selection.

[catfish]

I just read April is the first the coaches can work with the players due to the CBA

[spikerman]

I just read April is the first the coaches can work with the players due to the CBA

I'm not sure that holds true if the player voluntarily works with the coaches, but I'm not well versed in the CBA (obviously).

[catfish]

I'm not sure that holds true if the player voluntarily works with the coaches, but I'm not well versed in the CBA (obviously).

I think it does, otherwise there would be a lot of "suggested" workouts. Most likely the agreement specifically forbids it to keep coaches from pressuring players into giving up personal time. It is going to be late february before most guys are really truly 100% and not just game ready 100%, need down time to prevent burn out. Still would like to see Tebow hire a QB coach to work on footwork

[topscribe]

Really? Really???

Now we are going to claim that professional athletes can't catch objects with identical shapes and mass moving at similar speeds unless it is rotating just so?

It's Tebows fault that passes are dropped. Just another brick in the assinine wall of ludicrousness regarding Tebow.

Really?

I mean, I have no problem if you want to point out passes that land at a recievers feet or 20 feet over his head. But this just goes beyond any ability I have to take seriously.

I am only reporting what I have observed of many of Tebow's passes. I'm
speaking from a standpoint of science. Some quarterbacks throw passes
that are more "catchable" than others. That is a fact.

My point is not to try to establish anything is Tebow's "fault." I don't in any
sense put the blame on him for every pass that is dropped. I am only
discussing cause and effect.

BTW, notice that I am not taking exception to your disagreeing with me.
That is because you are discussing the topic: Tebow. Just sayin' . . .
(P.S. Not aimed at you.)

[NightTerror218]

I like the idea of Barkley and Jones in next years draft. This gives us a year to see how Tebow improves since a lot of people had us looking at Jones (Bowlen might push for it if Tebow flops).

[BroncoWave]

Landry Jones sucks balls. He only stayed in school because his stock got torpedoed this year. Broyles made him.

[Nick]

Landry Jones sucks balls. He only stayed in school because his stock got torpedoed this year. Broyles made him.

Finally someone else says it... :lol:

[bcbronc]

As for Tebow specifically, I want to see what the kid can do. He found a way, with a worse roster IMHO, to do what Cutler and Orton before couldn't-win enough to get in.



yeah, okay, technically this is accurate. But both Orton and Cutler managed 8 win seasons just like Tebow did, difference being most seasons 8 wins doesn't get you in the playoffs. And I don't agree with "worse roster" either...I'm no fan of either Orton or Cutler, but neither had a defense nearly as good as Tebow (not saying our defense now is great, but it was pretty awful the last while). Tebow did make the playoffs, not taking that away, but he didn't do it by winning anymore games than Cutler or Orton managed.

I do agree with you that Tebow has improved over the course of the season, but there's a big difference between "getting better" and "good enough". At this point, he's not good enough, even with the improvements he's made. We'll see if he can get to that next level.



BTW, notice that I am not taking exception to your disagreeing with me.
That is because you are discussing the topic: Tebow. Just sayin' . . .
(P.S. Not aimed at you.)

Way to take the high road top. Feel free to grow up anytime now. :welcome:

[topscribe]

yeah, okay, technically this is accurate. But both Orton and Cutler managed 8 win seasons just like Tebow did, difference being most seasons 8 wins doesn't get you in the playoffs. And I don't agree with "worse roster" either...I'm no fan of either Orton or Cutler, but neither had a defense nearly as good as Tebow (not saying our defense now is great, but it was pretty awful the last while). Tebow did make the playoffs, not taking that away, but he didn't do it by winning anymore games than Cutler or Orton managed.

I do agree with you that Tebow has improved over the course of the season, but there's a big difference between "getting better" and "good enough". At this point, he's not good enough, even with the improvements he's made. We'll see if he can get to that next level.


Way to take the high road top. Feel free to grow up anytime now. :welcome:

That is truly a laugh, coming from you.

Way to meddle. Feel better now?

[TXBRONC]

I HATE to make another Tebow thread, but I was looking through the other ones and couldn't figure out where to put this.

We're hearing that the Broncos are going to work with Tebow in the offseason to improve his passing. We're also hearing that he's such a hard worker and all of this extra time is going to do wonders. I'm not doubting it, but my question is this -

How much time do the Broncos (and Tebow) take off between now and starting to work on his issues? He has so far to go, I wish they would start tomorrow, but I'm sure it will be a while. (Stay off the weights Timmy).

Is Tuesday morning soon enough?

[TXBRONC]

Supposedly it started three or four years ago.

I don't see it. I'm skeptical too.

And there was very little improvement over the course of the season. Very litte. "Whoo-hoo, he only missed him by five yards this time!"

Show me proof that anyone work with Tebow for the last four years?

[MOtorboat]

Show me proof that anyone work with Tebow for the last four years?

They didn't, and he didn't seek the help. That's what I'm concerned with.

[Elevation inc]

wow.....that is all.....

[Elevation inc]

im sad i really missed the 8-8 cutler teams and the 4-12 orton teams......this BS tebow did makes me miss that real bad.....why did he have to lead us to magical wins and a playoff win after a 1-4 start...i mean its BS really it is.....

[Nick]

im sad i really missed the 8-8 cutler teams and the 4-12 orton teams......this BS tebow did makes me miss that real bad.....why did he have to lead us to magical wins and a playoff win after a 1-4 start...i mean its BS really it is.....

The Griese and specially Plummer era was far more entertaining.

[wayninja]

Tebow did make the playoffs, not taking that away, but he didn't do it by winning anymore games than Cutler or Orton managed.

Yep... won the same... in 5 fewer starts.

[Elevation inc]

The Griese and specially Plummer era was far more entertaining.

i liked plummer alot and cutler and shanny was a idiot to bench him for cutler when he did he should have waited till seasons end, it would have helped him, plummer, and cutler.......instead cutler wasnt ready, plummer divided the LR and shanny lost the players.....and here we are as a result....

[Canmore]

i liked plummer alot and cutler and shanny was a idiot to bench him for cutler when he did he should have waited till seasons end, it would have helped him, plummer, and cutler.......instead cutler wasnt ready, plummer divided the LR and shanny lost the players.....and here we are as a result....

Don't know that your premise and conclusion are valid. Mike made some bold decisions but that was a long time ago even though in years it isn't so long. So many decisions were made, especially by McDaniels, that it seems you are going straight from A to Z without considering B,C,D...Cutler, Plummer and Shanahan seem to be a decade ago with the McDaniels experiment. Doesn't he play into the result?

[Nick]

i liked plummer alot and cutler and shanny was a idiot to bench him for cutler when he did he should have waited till seasons end, it would have helped him, plummer, and cutler.......instead cutler wasnt ready, plummer divided the LR and shanny lost the players.....and here we are as a result....

Lets agree to disagree :lol:

[Joel]

You might notice in my post that I allowed for the highlighted throws, such
as the one to DT you pointed out here. And that "longest pass of Tebow's
career" was actually the product of a long run by DT. All Tebow had to do
was to put it out right in front of him about 10 yards down field, and DT did
the rest.

There are a lot of problems with Tebow's delivery, and I don't know whether
he can overcome the muscle memory he has developed over all those tens
of thousands of reps he has done in his career. I hope so. This offseason
will tell, but in the meantime, I wouldn't stop shopping for a QB if I were EFX.
Muscle memory is overcome by exhaustively practicing the right motions until the ongoing replacement of striated muscle produces the right muscle memory. Perhaps nowhere else are Tebows problems as easy to overcome with good coaching and practice.

When DECKER caught the longest pass of Tebows career (since surpassed by his completion to Thomas,) Thomas' running was a non-factor: Tebow dropped a ball in over Decker shoulder, in stride with a receiver right behind him, and he merely had to keep going until crossing the goal line. He still got a lot of media attention, even nationally, after that pass, and wilting in that spotlight could explain why he has disappeared since.

It was PRECISELY the same type of tight spiralling pass Tebow made to Thomas against Chicago--but that one only made highlight reels where we were told a 40 yard over the shoulder throw that hit a receiver in stride, but bounced off the palm of one hand and the fingers of another, proves Tebow can't make the tough throws. That combined with Tebow immediately telling Thomas to cheer up because he'd catch the game winning pass seems to have worked wonders, because he's been on fire since.

Like I said, the whole team's young, which is what made the win against Pitt so important. They hung with an elite team throughout a playoff game, and won, which surely taught them many things a lot of players don't learn until they've been in the League a decade. Not just confidence and poise under pressure, but how veteran playoff teams will attack them in playoff games, and how to overcome that and win.

Tebow must overcome a number of significant problems but, as comforting as it may be to believe that's the only thing standing between this team and greatness, it is a luxury only available to fans, not EFX.

I think it does, otherwise there would be a lot of "suggested" workouts. Most likely the agreement specifically forbids it to keep coaches from pressuring players into giving up personal time. It is going to be late february before most guys are really truly 100% and not just game ready 100%, need down time to prevent burn out. Still would like to see Tebow hire a QB coach to work on footwork
Makes sense to me, and if they can't work with him until April that means AFTER the draft; they'll have to commit to a QB strategy before any more workouts with Tebow. Personally, I think that'll lead to signing a veteran FA dual threat as injury insurance and trying to find a hidden gem in Mr. Irrelevant territory.

I also agree with your earlier comment about giving him the chance to show improvement next year, see if he plateaus or tanks, rather than pull him after the the first back to back bad games. If he's not found his legs by the third or fourth game we'll probably have to make a change; we can't count on going from 1-4 to Division champs EVERY year, and I expect both Oakland and KC to be more competive. However, ANY young QB will have ups and downs his first few seasons, and unless we let him demonstrate whether good or bad play is the norm we'll never find the solution; even if we DO get a future HoFer we'll boot him before he proves himself.

[TXBRONC]

They didn't, and he didn't seek the help. That's what I'm concerned with.


You don't know if he sought help.

There is no reason for you to be so critical just because your vertically challenged, and the fact Tebow has super hot chicks that like to hang out with him. :heh:



Just kidding. :D

[NightTerror218]

Sounds like Tebow wants to start right away on off working on getting better and brass wants him to give his body a break.

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_19759282?_requestid=197150

I love his motivation.

[jhildebrand]

Not doing the CBS thing next week. Last quote in that article is nice, too!

The kid is going to work his tail off. He gets it! That is why I love Tebow. Stuff like that last quote and his penchant to genuinely work and try harder. He may never make it but I am sure willing as a fan to sit back and hope they give him every chance to succeed.

I liked Cutler but his attitude, demeanor, and prima donna-ness (not a word until now) always rubbed me the wrong way!

[broncosfannum24]

@ motorboat, its not that tebow didnt want the help, its that he didnt need to change anything he was doing , when you win a heisman, and two championships in college no one is going to tell you change anything.

And college coaches arent there to prepare players for the pros ,they are there to win college games, urban meyer could care less about tebows mechanics cause they worked in his system

[MOtorboat]

@ motorboat, its not that tebow didnt want the help, its that he didnt need to change anything he was doing , when you win a heisman, and two championships in college no one is going to tell you change anything.

And college coaches arent there to prepare players for the pros ,they are there to win college games, urban meyer could care less about tebows mechanics cause they worked in his system

Which makes it a disaster to think they can change...or will have long term success...

But, hey, he won a bunch of fluke games this year, so :elefant:

[PAINTERDAVE]

I have seen him make NFL caliber throws so I know he has the potential. What I want to see is him doing it consistently. I really want this kid to succeed. That's why I'm anxious for him to get back to work. :)

Yes... those who act as if there was NO improvement are not being objective.

I am interested to see if he engages a private throwing coach
the way Quinn did in the last off season.

The new League Contract will prohibit him from contact
with the team until what.. late April?

[broncosfannum24]

@ motorboat, i know where your coming from with being scared and he wont changed, but perfect example is mike vick, horrible passer his first 7 years in the league, in fact his highest completion for a year was 55% until last year, and no one in atlanta wanted him to change who he was in atlanta cause his play constantly got them to the playoffs (not every year) and once to the nfc chamionship game.

He didnt become a better pure thrower until he got with the eagles, his footwork and mechanics are 50x's better then what they ever were, and this was a guy that spent two years in prison lol, if he can become a better qb after that, i dont see why cant tebow.

And a win is a win no matter how you turn it, the hardest thing to do in professional sports is to win in the nfl, just ask chris weinke, 1-16 as a starter, and he was a pro style qb. I could sit here and say the packers loss to the giants was a fluke cause of all the dropped passed and missed open recivers and the lucky hail mary at the end of the half, those arent fluky wins, those are reasons why the other team lost.

(P.S. im not trying to make an arguement with you just stating my opinion)

[NightTerror218]

Which makes it a disaster to think they can change...or will have long term success...

But, hey, he won a bunch of fluke games this year, so :elefant:

you call them flukes, i call them mistakes by the other team and our team taking advantage. The drive by Jets was not a fluke, the 4th quarter in Miami was no fluke. The vikings game was no fluke, the games in Oak/KC were no flukes.

A fluke would have been the win over Bengals in 2009.

[claymore]

you call them flukes, i call them mistakes by the other team and our team taking advantage. The drive by Jets was not a fluke, the 4th quarter in Miami was no fluke. The vikings game was no fluke, the games in Oak/KC were no flukes.

A fluke would have been the win over Bengals in 2009.

Oak game was not a fluke. The KC game, we won even though our QB completed 2 passes? Fluke. The Jets game was a fluke as well. We needed a pick 6 and some missed field goals, and a 20 yard running TD from our QB. That isnt fluke worthy?

EDIT: OAK gam was kinda a fluke. Palmer went from the couch to the starting line up in 2 weeks with zero camp, playbook knowledge etc...

[topscribe]

Oak game was not a fluke. The KC game, we won even though our QB completed 2 passes? Fluke. The Jets game was a fluke as well. We needed a pick 6 and some missed field goals, and a 20 yard running TD from our QB. That isnt fluke worthy?

Or the Chicago game, where the RB inexplicably ran out of bounds?

[NightTerror218]

Oak game was not a fluke. The KC game, we won even though our QB completed 2 passes? Fluke. The Jets game was a fluke as well. We needed a pick 6 and some missed field goals, and a 20 yard running TD from our QB. That isnt fluke worthy?

EDIT: OAK gam was kinda a fluke. Palmer went from the couch to the starting line up in 2 weeks with zero camp, playbook knowledge etc...

Since it is you posting this Clay I will ignore it, because you never see anything positive only half empty. You hate Tebow and this team is only lucky.

[TXBRONC]

Which makes it a disaster to think they can change...or will have long term success...

But, hey, he won a bunch of fluke games this year, so :elefant:

Flukes? The definition of a fluke is the season opener in '09.

[NightTerror218]

Flukes? The definition of a fluke is the season opener in '09.

apparently that is bad argument. Game winning drives are apparently flukes too.

[claymore]

Flukes? The definition of a fluke is the season opener in '09.

I got bashed for saying that at the time too. At least 4 of McD's first 6 games were fluke, blind luck wins.

[claymore]

Since it is you posting this Clay I will ignore it, because you never see anything positive only half empty. You hate Tebow and this team is only lucky.

I dont hate Tebow. I just think he is a bad QB.

I am probably more positive about this team than most. I think I predicted 10wins this year.

[broncosfannum24]

Lol every game is a fluke in claymores eyes

[broncosfannum24]

By the way im just giving You crap clay :)

[claymore]

By the way im just giving You crap clay :)

No offense taken. I know my opinion on this isnt very popular. :)

[NightTerror218]

By the way im just giving You crap clay :)

Only reason I put up with him is because his avatar reminds me of my childhood, good ol heman and master of the universe. Clay was prob 40 when they came out which put top at 60 then ;)

[claymore]

Only reason I put up with him is because his avatar reminds me of my childhood, good ol heman and master of the universe. Clay was prob 40 when they came out which put top at 60 then ;)

Just like Tebow this statement is less than 50% accurate. :drinking:

[TXBRONC]

I got bashed for saying that at the time too. At least 4 of McD's first 6 games were fluke, blind luck wins.

From what I remember of the '09 season that's only game sticks as fluke. Other games like the game against Dallas was a great individual efforts by Marshall and Bailey.

[TXBRONC]

Or the Chicago game, where the RB inexplicably ran out of bounds?

I wouldn't consider that one a fluke. Stupid mistake by veteran running back but it didn't give Denver points like the season opener in '09.

[NightTerror218]

I wouldn't consider that one a fluke. Stupid mistake by veteran running back but it didn't give Denver points like the season opener in '09.

you figure if Barber did get the 1st down the game was sealed right then and there, take a knee and game is over. He was going for the win and was pushed out of bounds.

[Dreadnought]

Oak game was not a fluke. The KC game, we won even though our QB completed 2 passes? Fluke. The Jets game was a fluke as well. We needed a pick 6 and some missed field goals, and a 20 yard running TD from our QB. That isnt fluke worthy?

EDIT: OAK gam was kinda a fluke. Palmer went from the couch to the starting line up in 2 weeks with zero camp, playbook knowledge etc...

Thats ridiculous. We stomped the Chiefs, old school. That is the clearest win we had all year. We stomped the Raiders. The Jets game was very freakin' far from a fluke either. That was a drive worthy of the ages, not a fluke. Good Lord.

[broncosfannum24]

Pretty much any game againsta carson plamer team is a fluke, 07 when the bengals tscored in denver and botched extra point , thats a fluke lol, the hail mary against the bengals in 09 thats a fluke lol and agaisnt te raiders, that was his second start so i guess it was a fluke lol, but im just making fun of carson palmer in this post lol not to be taken serious

[claymore]

I wouldn't consider that one a fluke. Stupid mistake by veteran running back but it didn't give Denver points like the season opener in '09.

How about fumbling it right after that?

[NightTerror218]

How about fumbling it right after that?

I thought that was defense making a great play, if they recovered and ran it back would you still call that a fluke, or because Tebow lead them to a scoring FG drive its a fluke?

[TXBRONC]

Thats ridiculous. We stomped the Chiefs, old school. That is the clearest win we had all year. We stomped the Raiders. The Jets game was very freakin' far from a fluke either. That was a drive worthy of the ages, not a fluke. Good Lord.

No shit. We didn't have to throw the ball. Yeah Tebow completed only two passes but he also had two or three drops as well.

The Jets game a fluke? Denver had to go 98 freakin yards for the go ahead score! And it didn't happen on just one play it was what eight or nine play drive.

I'm not convinced Tebow is our long term solution but give credit where credit is due. Those seven victories were not flukes.

[claymore]

Thats ridiculous. We stomped the Chiefs, old school. That is the clearest win we had all year. We stomped the Raiders. The Jets game was very freakin' far from a fluke either. That was a drive worthy of the ages, not a fluke. Good Lord.

Tebow completed 2 passes Dread. 2 passes. All of those games took a series of weird events for us to barely win.

The raiders game was desicive. But Carson Palmer had only been with the team for like 2-3 weeks. We SHOULD have won that one decisivley.

[TXBRONC]

How about fumbling it right after that?

I think Woodyard stripped him of the ball. Besides that it still took a 50 plus yard field goal to win the game. Clay lets also not forget that before that strip the Bears beneficiaries of questionable catch by the same running back.

[claymore]

No shit. We didn't have to throw the ball. Yeah Tebow completed only two passes but he also had two or three drops as well.

The Jets game a fluke? Denver had to go 98 freakin yards for the go ahead score! And it didn't happen on just one play it was what eight or nine play drive.

I'm not convinced Tebow is our long term solution but give credit where credit is due. Those seven victories were not flukes.

That drive wasnt the fluke, it was the pick six and missed field goals. In other words it took miracle lucky things to occur to win.

[claymore]

I think Woodyard stripped him of the ball.

A huge shot of luck.

[NightTerror218]

That drive wasnt the fluke, it was the pick six and missed field goals. In other words it took miracle lucky things to occur to win.

So all the other pick 6s that he threw were all also lucky for the other teams?

[claymore]

So all the other pick 6s that he threw were all also lucky for the other teams?

If they needed a pick six to win, It sure as hell didnt hurt.

[TXBRONC]

That drive wasnt the fluke, it was the pick six and missed field goals. In other words it took miracle lucky things to occur to win.

How in the hell are missed field goals and a pick six a fluke? Those things happen all the time. In the game against Miami Prater missed two fields. He missed another one in the game at Oakland. No those are things that are common to football games.

[TXBRONC]

A huge shot of luck.

That's bull shit and you know it. :lol:

[claymore]

How in the hell are missed field goals and a pick six a fluke? Those things happen all the time. In the game against Miami Prater missed two fields. He missed another one in the game at Oakland. No those are things that are common to football games.

You know a pick six is a fluke. Whatd we have 1 maybe 2 all year? Missed FG's are lucky and unlucky depending on the timing, and need of the 3 points. Prater missing FG's is an statistical anomoly. So I would say it is considered lucky for the opposing team.

[claymore]

That's bull shit and you know it. :lol:

If its not Luck we need to do it on every play.

[BroncoJoe]

Doesn't Coach have a thread for most of you idiots?

[broncosfannum24]

Im sexy and i know it

[claymore]

Wiggle, Wiggle, Wiggle, Wiggle, Yeah... Wiggle, Wiggle, Wiggle, Wiggle, Yeah...

[TXBRONC]

If its not Luck we need to do it on every play.

You know better than that. It's doesn't make it luck just because doesn't happen every single pass play.

[TXBRONC]

You know a pick six is a fluke. Whatd we have 1 maybe 2 all year? Missed FG's are lucky and unlucky depending on the timing, and need of the 3 points. Prater missing FG's is an statistical anomoly. So I would say it is considered lucky for the opposing team.

First of all as a team Denver had nine picks o the year serveral teams had more a lot more than that.

Very rarely does a kicker go an entire season without missing field goal. If such an anonmoly miss all those kicks between 20 and 30 yards?

Keep being so hard headed and I wont come down to El Paso to kick you in the ass with my dick skin boots. :coffee: :D

[jhildebrand]

Marion Barber inexplicably ran out of bounds :lol:

DJ Williams didn't have anything to do with it :rolleyes:

Some are so far up the former regime's ass and Ortons fruit of the looms they can't have ANY objectivity. Marion Barber simply walked out of bounds.

[MarX20]

Add Content

[TXBRONC]

Marion Barber inexplicably ran out of bounds :lol:

DJ Williams didn't have anything to do with it :rolleyes:

Some are so far up the former regime's ass and Ortons fruit of the looms they can't have ANY objectivity. Marion Barber simply walked out of bounds.

Was Barber's momentum carrying him toward the side line? Yes. Would he have gone out of bounds if no one forced him out? Nope.

[Ravage!!!]

Was Barber's momentum carrying him toward the side line? Yes. Would he have gone out of bounds if no one forced him out? Nope.

Come on. He knew, as well as EVERYONE ELSE watchign the game knew, that you simplly GO DOWN instead of running out of bounds. He RAN out of bounds. Williams didn't pick him up and carry him out and he wasn't hit without looking or seeing the tackler. He simply ran out of bounds without going down and being smart. He was the dumbest football player on the field at that moment, and it cost them the game, while handing it to us.

Just as we got lucky with teams fumbling the ball in OT, getting onside kick recoveries to go into OT, getting 59 yrd FGs. Its really no different than the luck we got when Orton had his 6 game winning streak in '09. Sometimes it happens. We can get a MUCH MUCH better feel for the team as to how they perform once the ball stops bouncing our way. Teams eventually scored on our defense, and the game was left on Orton.

Teams have pretty much figured out Tebow, and our defense came down to earth a bit making it much more difficult for our offense to keep up. Once our offense was required to do more than punt and play field position, it floundered.

[CoachChaz]

Come on. He knew, as well as EVERYONE ELSE watchign the game knew, that you simplly GO DOWN instead of running out of bounds. He RAN out of bounds. Williams didn't pick him up and carry him out and he wasn't hit without looking or seeing the tackler. He simply ran out of bounds without going down and being smart. He was the dumbest football player on the field at that moment, and it cost them the game, while handing it to us.

Just as we got lucky with teams fumbling the ball in OT, getting onside kick recoveries to go into OT, getting 59 yrd FGs. Its really no different than the luck we got when Orton had his 6 game winning streak in '09. Sometimes it happens. We can get a MUCH MUCH better feel for the team as to how they perform once the ball stops bouncing our way. Teams eventually scored on our defense, and the game was left on Orton.

Teams have pretty much figured out Tebow, and our defense came down to earth a bit making it much more difficult for our offense to keep up. Once our offense was required to do more than punt and play field position, it floundered.

I'll agree we had a lot of things go our way, but there is also the mindset that you have to help yourself. You have to try to strip the ball before you can get a fumble...you have to set yourself up for a 59 yard field goal before you can attempt one...you have to execute on the on-side kick before you can recover it.

Yes, we had a lot of things go our way...but it wasnt through divine intervention. Those guys on the field worked for those breaks. Unfortunately that well dried at the end.

[NightTrainLayne]

Here's the deal. For Clay, and some other negative Nancies the definition of "Fluke win, Lucky win" etc. is as follows:

Fluke Win: Any game wherein the final score is close and/or the result is in question until very near the end of the contest. See also: Lucky Win.

EVERY game has lucky and/or fluke plays. Some games have multiple such plays manifested by both teams. Ergo, any close game gets labelled by some as a "fluke" win because they want to look at one or two "fluke" or "lucky" plays and see a different result without those particular plays.

In the future, when you see Clay or others call a win a "fluke", or "lucky" win, just substitute the word "close" and move on.

[Ravage!!!]

I'll agree we had a lot of things go our way, but there is also the mindset that you have to help yourself. You have to try to strip the ball before you can get a fumble...you have to set yourself up for a 59 yard field goal before you can attempt one...you have to execute on the on-side kick before you can recover it.

Yes, we had a lot of things go our way...but it wasnt through divine intervention. Those guys on the field worked for those breaks. Unfortunately that well dried at the end.

Absolutely. I'm a strong believer in the " you make your own luck with hard work and preparation" idiom. But it seems the "luck" comes in bunches, and when it runs out, our team started to follow suite. It was a situation that our team NEEDED or "relied" on such luck in order to get a win, instead of those types of four-clover moments enhancing the play already on the field.

I guess luck is a matter of perspective. I consider something to be of 'luck' when its a situation that doesn't normally happen, or, if it has a high probablility AGAINST. Onside kick recoveries obviously aren't luck since the play is set up and kicked to try and recover the kick. However, the chances of it working is highly improbable. Same with fumbles happening right as OT starts, hitting the hail mary, and getting pick-6's.

[CoachChaz]

Absolutely. I'm a strong believer in the " you make your own luck with hard work and preparation" idiom. But it seems the "luck" comes in bunches, and when it runs out, our team started to follow suite. It was a situation that our team NEEDED or "relied" on such luck in order to get a win, instead of those types of four-clover moments enhancing the play already on the field.

I guess luck is a matter of perspective. I consider something to be of 'luck' when its a situation that doesn't normally happen, or, if it has a high probablility AGAINST. Onside kick recoveries obviously aren't luck since the play is set up and kicked to try and recover the kick. However, the chances of it working is highly improbable. Same with fumbles happening right as OT starts, hitting the hail mary, and getting pick-6's.

I agree...and I'm on board with the fact that A LOT of imporvements need to happen just to replicate our 8-8 season. Otherwise, we wont be so "lucky" next year

[catfish]

Wiggle, Wiggle, Wiggle, Wiggle, Yeah... Wiggle, Wiggle, Wiggle, Wiggle, Yeah...

wyx6JDQCslE

I work out(possibly not safe for work)

[NightTerror218]

wyx6JDQCslE

I work out(possibly not safe for work)

now song is stuck in my head

[broncosfannum24]

Lets all take our anger out on some call of duty:)

[LTC Pain]

Lets all take our anger out on some call of duty:)

Call of Duty - United Offensive!!! I'm all over it.

[nevcraw]

It was hyperbolic, yes, but his throwing hasn't improved in four years, why is this offseason different?

do you even care to be close to accurate? ever?

I love to know how much film time you've logged over the last 4 years to studying his throwing mechanics and rating the improvement.. anyone who watched this season objectively saw marked improvement from where he started and experts showed scientific evidence of thawing motion improvement since college... you are wrong.

more worthless drivel from moto.

[MOtorboat]

Scientific evidence.

That's deep. Maybe he'll get to 50 percent next year.

[NightTerror218]

Scientific evidence.

That's deep. Maybe he'll get to 50 percent next year.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[nevcraw]

Scientific evidence.

That's deep. Maybe he'll get to 50 percent next year.

wouldn't you be better off just saying "I don't think tebow is ever going to be a good qb" and leave the conjecture to more open minded individuals which will spare everyone from the pissy little passive aggressive jabs in each every thread regarding our QB..

[NightTerror218]

wouldn't you be better off just saying "I don't think tebow is ever going to be a good qb" and leave the conjecture to more open minded individuals which will spare everyone from the pissy little passive aggressive jabs in each every thread regarding our QB..

watch out you might talk over his head