Elway is a bust

[Fred Williams]

1990, Superbowl aftermath:

John Elway completes just 10 of 26 passes with no TDs and 2 INTS. Joe Montana completes 76% of his passes for 297 yds, 5 TD and no INTs.

It is clear we must bench Elway, he is a bust. He will never win an NFL championship. He'll probably never even win another playoff game.

[Northman]

Sweet.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Sweet.

Not the word I would have used

[Dzone]

Tommy Maddox was the answer

[Ravage!!!]

Brilliant.

[HammeredOut]

didn't elway have have like 3 TDs, to his 10 INTS in all of his Superbowl runs??

[BORDERLINE]

Exceptional.

[Fred Williams]

Tommy Maddox was the answer

Actually, it was Gary Kubiak the mentally-challenged fans were calling to start. Some things never change under the sun...

[chazoe60]

didn't elway have have like 3 TDs, to his 10 INTS in all of his Superbowl runs??

Go ahead and tell us all how much better Terry Bradshaw was.

[BroncoStud]

I actually agree with Fred Williams here. Fans tend to over-react pretty much all the time.

[MOtorboat]

When Tebow makes three Super Bowls, regardless of win or lose, maybe then I'll compare the situation to Elway.

Maybe.

Anyone who can't see the differences, either didn't see Elway, or is delusional about what Tebow brings to the table.

[Ravage!!!]

When Tebow makes three Super Bowls, regardless of win or lose, maybe then I'll compare the situation to Elway.

Maybe.

Anyone who can't see the differences, either didn't see Elway, or is delusional about what Tebow brings to the table.

Kids. :coffee:

[HammeredOut]

Go ahead and tell us all how much better Terry Bradshaw was.

In the Superbowl game in particular?? You know the stats.. 9 TDs to like 2 INTS for Bradshaw.. Sure some QBs were better in the Superbowl then Elway.

[Northman]

When Tebow makes three Super Bowls, regardless of win or lose, maybe then I'll compare the situation to Elway.

Maybe.

Anyone who can't see the differences, either didn't see Elway, or is delusional about what Tebow brings to the table.

^This

[BroncoStud]

When Tebow makes three Super Bowls, regardless of win or lose, maybe then I'll compare the situation to Elway.

Maybe.

Anyone who can't see the differences, either didn't see Elway, or is delusional about what Tebow brings to the table.

I'm not saying Tebow is Elway, or even close for that matter, but Tebow exceeded my expectations this year, perhaps because I expected so little. I was just happy to get Kyle Orton the hell out of Denver, then we started winning games and suddenly we were relevant again.

Elway played on inferior teams, Tebow is playing on an inferior team. D. Thomas is the ONLY decent option Tebow has, and I'm not sure how many teams Thomas would even start for... This team needs speed and hands on offense, and a few RBs who can run. Tebow has to learn to pass like a professional QB, he has to make the routine throws, the checkdowns, the dumps, and Mike McCoy has to grow a pair of balls when calling plays.

The defense needs help and needs more speed.

On the flipside, Prater is elite now and the offensive line is pretty good for the most part. I am assuming we will improve this offseason and another playoff run next year isn't out of the question.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I understand what Fred is getting at. May not have been the most opportune time or way to make that point, but that doesn't make it false.

[chazoe60]

In the Superbowl game in particular?? You know the stats.. 9 TDs to like 2 INTS for Bradshaw.. Sure some QBs were better in the Superbowl then Elway.

No no no, you claimed Bradshaw was a better QB than Elway, not just in the SB. Don't shy away from your insanity now. Embrace it.

[Northman]

I understand what Fred is getting at. May not have been the most opportune time or way to make that point, but that doesn't make it false.

Unfortuantely, its not just about stats. Thats why its important to have actually watched the man play.

[BroncoStud]

Terry Bradshaw isn't worthy of the urine on Elway's jockstrap. The Steelers literally mugged offenses in the 70's, they ran the ball down team's throats, and they had amazing WRs. Bradshaw made the occasional play and they won Super Bowls.

Elway carried 3 average teams to Super Bowls, he carried an average franchise to numerous playoff runs. He won 2 Super Bowls with adequate talent at an advanced age for an NFL QB.

Imagine if Elway had Shanahan from 1983 on... How many Super Bowls would he have won? Hard to say but his stats would easily be up there with Marino and Favre. There is no comparison, Elway is better than Bradshaw in every way except running his mouth.

[Fred Williams]

When Tebow makes three Super Bowls, regardless of win or lose, maybe then I'll compare the situation to Elway.

Maybe.

Anyone who can't see the differences, either didn't see Elway, or is delusional about what Tebow brings to the table.

Have you ever heard the term "strawman argument"? Most folks get my point. The Tebow bashers won't. Willfully?

[MOtorboat]

I understand what Fred is getting at. May not have been the most opportune time or way to make that point, but that doesn't make it false.

It's not a valid point at all, really.

He's comparing Elway after his THIRD Super Bowl appearance, who was playing against possibly the greatest team to ever take the field, against Tebow after one playoff game who lost against one of the worst pass defenses in the league.

There's a huge difference.

Had he compared it Elway's 10 of 15 for 123 yards, 0 TDs, 1 Int performance in his first playoff game and his 19 of 37 for 184 yards, 2 TDs, 2 Ints performance in his second game, then it would be a valid comparison.

Never mind the difference in eras, philosophy and rules.

However, again, we're comparing a guy who is regarded by scouts as the greatest quarterback prospect ever to a project...

[Northman]

It's not a valid point at all, really.

He's comparing Elway after his THIRD Super Bowl appearance, who was playing against possibly the greatest team to ever take the field, against Tebow after one playoff game who lost against one of the worst pass defenses in the league.

There's a huge difference.

Had he compared it Elway's 10 of 15 for 123 yards, 0 TDs, 1 Int performance in his first playoff game and his 19 of 37 for 184 yards, 2 TDs, 2 Ints performance in his second game, then it would be a valid comparison.

Never mind the difference in eras, philosophy and rules.

However, again, we're comparing a guy who is regarded by scouts as the greatest quarterback prospect ever to a project...


Agreed. The comparison was a moronic one at best.

[HammeredOut]

No no no, you claimed Bradshaw was a better QB than Elway, not just in the SB. Don't shy away from your insanity now. Embrace it.

lol... You hate stats dont you.. I suggest don't look at the stats called the "Score" from lastnights game..

[HammeredOut]

No no no, you claimed Bradshaw was a better QB than Elway, not just in the SB. Don't shy away from your insanity now. Embrace it.

Bradshaw was better clutch player, and had more superbowls then Elway. Big deal. Alot of QBs were better then Elway.

[camdisco24]

It's a valid point. I would bet that we will never see another QB get the kind of treatment Tebow got this season, in what was basically his first season as a starter. (Even though he had a limited off season practicing with 3rd stringers, new coaching staff, and was thrown into a 1-4 shit show).

Anyone calling for his head at this point has lost all sense of reality. Sorry.

[sunbeam]

Elway came into the league in 1983.

There may have been a tad bit of difference in the amount of experience these guys had in the games in question.

[Medford Bronco]

1990, Superbowl aftermath:

John Elway completes just 10 of 26 passes with no TDs and 2 INTS. Joe Montana completes 76% of his passes for 297 yds, 5 TD and no INTs.

It is clear we must bench Elway, he is a bust. He will never win an NFL championship. He'll probably never even win another playoff game.

This is one of the dumbest moronic posts of all time

Elway was a HOFer at that time playing in his 3rd Super Bowl. Yes he sucked on that day but did not complete under 50% on the season and could do simple things that NFL Qbs do

1. Throw a slant pass
2. Throw a spiral
3. Throw a 15 yard out pattern.

So in my assessment this is a jab at the "experts" that call tebow out.

Go watch some of Elways old games or are you to young to remember pre Super Bowl wins.

Well you are in luck, here are some examples.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNZGc3BzpWc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zFYwferLVQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmhWaAnga68&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXIt_9l023o&feature=related

Sorry Tebow is not even 1/3 as good as Elway. Nice kid but has a LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG way to go...

[Medford Bronco]

Elway came into the league in 1983.

There may have been a tad bit of difference in the amount of experience these guys had in the games in question.

Main differences, Elway can throw basic NFL passes and throws an occastional spiral, not wounded ducks on 85% of his passes.

Please... its a joke that these 2 are even talked about in the same breath...

a better comparison is Tom Brady, Rodgers and Brees vs Elway.

Those current guys have better stats due to the league being much more pass dependent now. But Elway, Marino, Montana et all would be better now in the arena league that is the NFL in 2012 not 1983-1998 when Elway played..

[Medford Bronco]

Bradshaw was better clutch player, and had more superbowls then Elway. Big deal. Alot of QBs were better then Elway.

Bradshaw is not a better QB than Elway. Not even close.

He played on Better teams but is not better.

Staubach was better than Bradshaw. I wish Elway could have arguably the best defense of all time to help him in the 70s. The Bronco teams of the 80s were not that great. Elway willed those teams with clutch play and a weak AFC to get to Super Bowls. Pitt is the 2nd best team of all time IMHO next to the 80s 49ers...

[sunbeam]

There were a whole lot of quarterbacks better than Elway.

Staubach and Bradshaw are two of them.

There were also a lot of quarterbacks in the league who could have won those two superbowls if they had been Denver's qb instead of Elway.

[Medford Bronco]

Not the word I would have used

I say someone must of landed on their head to post this topic.

Wait Doug Williams, Mark Rypien and Jeff Hostetlier were better than Elway pre 1997 :lol"

and of course they are all better than Marino, Kelley and Moon. BtW the QB does not play defense last time I checked. Just ask Jim Kelley and Dan Marino. also Kickers can help to. That bum Norwood last Kelley his only chance at a SB and Vinateri won 2 for Brady.

[MOtorboat]

:popcorn:

[Medford Bronco]

There were a whole lot of quarterbacks better than Elway.

Staubach and Bradshaw are two of them.

There were also a lot of quarterbacks in the league who could have won those two superbowls if they had been Denver's qb instead of Elway.

You are wrong l... Staubach a beter case, debatable, maybe Bradshaw is one of the most overrated Qbs of all time..... Lets throw it up for grabs and let Swan and Stallworth bail me out. Great RB as well with Franco Harris and Rocky Blier. You just hate Elway fine. you are entitled but watch the games. The 1987 Broncos defense was so awful. Doug freaking Williams lit them up. and Timmy Smith who never had more rushing yards the rest of his career.

Staubach who I like had a great defense as well...

[Medford Bronco]

There were a whole lot of quarterbacks better than Elway.

Staubach and Bradshaw are two of them.

There were also a lot of quarterbacks in the league who could have won those two superbowls if they had been Denver's qb instead of Elway.

So Bradshaw wins against the 49ers lol. You could have had Montana against himself in that game and he loses to a far superior team..

No go post in smack, you are certainly trying to egg people on. Today is a sucky day to be a bronco fan. So have fun:tsk:

[wayninja]

The OP is right, Elway actually IS a bust:

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4139/4884125922_f698e65433_z.jpg

Here it is in the Hall of Fame.

[chazoe60]

Anyone who would take Bradshaw or Staubach over Elway should never be allowed to watch the game again. Seriously, piss on your tvs, light them on fire, and throw them in a lake and never watch the game of football again, it is beyond your comprehension.

[Medford Bronco]

Anyone who would take Bradshaw or Staubach over Elway should never be allowed to watch the game again. Seriously, piss on your tvs, light them on fire, and throw them in a lake and never watch the game of football again, it is beyond your comprehension.

Maybe it is the OC of the Pats that you said to die in a house fire. If he pissed on his tv, he might cause one..:lol:

[Timmy!]

http://troll.me/images/futurama-fry/not-sure-if-serious-or-not.jpg

[sunbeam]

So Bradshaw wins against the 49ers lol. You could have had Montana against himself in that game and he loses to a far superior team..

No go post in smack, you are certainly trying to egg people on. Today is a sucky day to be a bronco fan. So have fun:tsk:

Yeah I guess so. I don't think you guys really realize what you have here in this team, and Tebow is pretty much the center of it.

This team could be every bit as successful as the Patriots or Steelers or any of the other past dynasty teams for 7 or 8 years.

I think you are going to have to get a different coach though. Fox has some qualities that could make him a championship coach, and more that say he never will.

I tell you this though, Tebow is the only chance you have to get to that level. Unless you guys have a really poor season, and get to draft high when a difference maker quarterback is available.

I doubt you are going to get one in a trade. Even if you get someone like Tom Brady I think you are going to find the game has changed when you get one, and Tebow and Newton are the new ideal quarterbacks.

BTW I'm not an Elway hater. It's simply that I'm not sure he would make my top twenty of all time quarterbacks. Without sitting down and ranking them, here are some guys I think were better:

Bradshaw
Staubach
Montana
Young
Jurgensen
Van Brocklin
Otto Graham
Bart Starr
Y.A. Tittle
Brady
Rogers (a little young but he belongs)
Tarkenton
Sammy Baugh
Len Dawson (Elway has a case against him)
Griese (Same as Dawson)
Phil Simms

I'm sure if I thought about things a little more I could come up with more names.

Vinny Testaverde could have easily won two superbowls with those bronco teams (the late 90 ones).

[MOtorboat]

:shocked: :lol:

[chazoe60]

Yeah I guess so. I don't think you guys really realize what you have here in this team, and Tebow is pretty much the center of it.

This team could be every bit as successful as the Patriots or Steelers or any of the other past dynasty teams for 7 or 8 years.

I think you are going to have to get a different coach though. Fox has some qualities that could make him a championship coach, and more that say he never will.

I tell you this though, Tebow is the only chance you have to get to that level. Unless you guys have a really poor season, and get to draft high when a difference maker quarterback is available.

I doubt you are going to get one in a trade. Even if you get someone like Tom Brady I think you are going to find the game has changed when you get one, and Tebow and Newton are the new ideal quarterbacks.

BTW I'm not an Elway hater. It's simply that I'm not sure he would make my top twenty of all time quarterbacks. Without sitting down and ranking them, here are some guys I think were better:

Bradshaw
Staubach
Montana
Young
Jurgensen
Van Brocklin
Otto Graham
Bart Starr
Y.A. Tittle
Brady
Rogers (a little young but he belongs)
Tarkenton
Sammy Baugh
Len Dawson (Elway has a case against him)
Griese (Same as Dawson)
Phil Simms

I'm sure if I thought about things a little more I could come up with more names.

Vinny Testaverde could have easily won two superbowls with those bronco teams (the late 90 ones).
If you're not joking then you just made the dumbest post in the history of the internet.

[Medford Bronco]

Yeah I guess so. I don't think you guys really realize what you have here in this team, and Tebow is pretty much the center of it.

This team could be every bit as successful as the Patriots or Steelers or any of the other past dynasty teams for 7 or 8 years.

I think you are going to have to get a different coach though. Fox has some qualities that could make him a championship coach, and more that say he never will.

I tell you this though, Tebow is the only chance you have to get to that level. Unless you guys have a really poor season, and get to draft high when a difference maker quarterback is available.

I doubt you are going to get one in a trade. Even if you get someone like Tom Brady I think you are going to find the game has changed when you get one, and Tebow and Newton are the new ideal quarterbacks.

BTW I'm not an Elway hater. It's simply that I'm not sure he would make my top twenty of all time quarterbacks. Without sitting down and ranking them, here are some guys I think were better:

Bradshaw
Staubach
Montana
Young
Jurgensen
Van Brocklin
Otto Graham
Bart Starr
Y.A. Tittle
Brady
Rogers (a little young but he belongs)
Tarkenton
Sammy Baugh
Len Dawson (Elway has a case against him)
Griese (Same as Dawson)
Phil Simms

I'm sure if I thought about things a little more I could come up with more names.

Vinny Testaverde could have easily won two superbowls with those bronco teams (the late 90 ones).

You sure sound like a hater. Phil Simms is not better, That in of it self is mornic. Even Phil himself would tell you Elway is better.

I know I am a bit biaed but would give Elway top 10 at the very worst, top 20 is disrespectful. Just my take.... Sorry you can hate. This is a bad day for this conversation as well.....

YOu mean Vinne Interceptaverde.

Dont bring up Ya Title and the old timers. Modern NFL only.

I wish Elway had Bradys defense of the early 2000s he would have not needed the tuck rule to win Super Bowl vs the Rams.

I agree Brady is great and would give him a slight edge of Elway but Bob Griese as well and his 15 passes per game.

[Medford Bronco]

If you're not joking then you just made the dumbest post in the history of the internet.

he is tied with the original poster for that honor

[Timmy!]

Yeah I guess so. I don't think you guys really realize what you have here in this team, and Tebow is pretty much the center of it.

This team could be every bit as successful as the Patriots or Steelers or any of the other past dynasty teams for 7 or 8 years.

I think you are going to have to get a different coach though. Fox has some qualities that could make him a championship coach, and more that say he never will.

I tell you this though, Tebow is the only chance you have to get to that level. Unless you guys have a really poor season, and get to draft high when a difference maker quarterback is available.

I doubt you are going to get one in a trade. Even if you get someone like Tom Brady I think you are going to find the game has changed when you get one, and Tebow and Newton are the new ideal quarterbacks.

BTW I'm not an Elway hater. It's simply that I'm not sure he would make my top twenty of all time quarterbacks. Without sitting down and ranking them, here are some guys I think were better:

Bradshaw
Staubach
Montana
Young
Jurgensen
Van Brocklin
Otto Graham
Bart Starr
Y.A. Tittle
Brady
Rogers (a little young but he belongs)
Tarkenton
Sammy Baugh
Len Dawson (Elway has a case against him)
Griese (Same as Dawson)
Phil Simms

I'm sure if I thought about things a little more I could come up with more names.

Vinny Testaverde could have easily won two superbowls with those bronco teams (the late 90 ones).http://edge.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/870750/80946058.jpg

[chazoe60]

Yeah I guess so. I don't think you guys really realize what you have here in this team, and Tebow is pretty much the center of it.

This team could be every bit as successful as the Patriots or Steelers or any of the other past dynasty teams for 7 or 8 years.

I think you are going to have to get a different coach though. Fox has some qualities that could make him a championship coach, and more that say he never will.

I tell you this though, Tebow is the only chance you have to get to that level. Unless you guys have a really poor season, and get to draft high when a difference maker quarterback is available.

I doubt you are going to get one in a trade. Even if you get someone like Tom Brady I think you are going to find the game has changed when you get one, and Tebow and Newton are the new ideal quarterbacks.

BTW I'm not an Elway hater. It's simply that I'm not sure he would make my top twenty of all time quarterbacks. Without sitting down and ranking them, here are some guys I think were better:

Bradshaw
Staubach
Montana
Young
Jurgensen
Van Brocklin
Otto Graham
Bart Starr
Y.A. Tittle
Brady
Rogers (a little young but he belongs)
Tarkenton
Sammy Baugh
Len Dawson (Elway has a case against him)
Griese (Same as Dawson)
Phil Simms

I'm sure if I thought about things a little more I could come up with more names.

Vinny Testaverde could have easily won two superbowls with those bronco teams (the late 90 ones).
I'm not sure what shows your lack of football inteligence more, the names on the list or the names you left off.

Considering the contents of your list how in the **** did you leave names like Unitas, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Brett Favre, Dan Marino, and Jim Kelly off?

I'm not saying those guys are all better than Elway but someone who would make the disturbingly stupid list you just made must believe all those guys are infinitely better. Or your just incredibly football moronic.

[Northman]

I'm not saying those guys are all better than Elway but someone who would make the disturbingly stupid list you just made must believe all those guys are infinitely better. Or your just incredibly football moronic.

I would go with the latter.

[rcsodak]

When Tebow makes three Super Bowls, regardless of win or lose, maybe then I'll compare the situation to Elway.

Maybe.

Anyone who can't see the differences, either didn't see Elway, or is delusional about what Tebow brings to the table.
Only if they think hitting wide open wr's takes great skill. Or seeing a blitz pre-snap.

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[HammeredOut]

I'm not sure what shows your lack of football inteligence more, the names on the list or the names you left off.

Considering the contents of your list how in the **** did you leave names like Unitas, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Brett Favre, Dan Marino, and Jim Kelly off?

I'm not saying those guys are all better than Elway but someone who would make the disturbingly stupid list you just made must believe all those guys are infinitely better. Or your just incredibly football moronic.

What about Jake Plummer... I thought you liked him too..

[MOtorboat]

The Top 10 is, in no particular order:
Elway
Manning
Marino
Favre
Brady
Unitas
Montana
Tarkenton
Fouts
Young

[chazoe60]

The Top 10 is, in no particular order:
Elway
Manning
Marino
Favre
Brady
Unitas
Montana
Tarkenton
Fouts
Young
I would honestly take Warren Moon over Fouts. Just my opinion.

[rcsodak]

I'm not sure what shows your lack of football inteligence more, the names on the list or the names you left off.

Considering the contents of your list how in the **** did you leave names like Unitas, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Brett Favre, Dan Marino, and Jim Kelly off?

I'm not saying those guys are all better than Elway but someone who would make the disturbingly stupid list you just made must believe all those guys are infinitely better. Or your just incredibly football moronic.
My.....everybody's a critic, these days.
Namecall much? :tsk:

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[chazoe60]

My.....everybody's a critic, these days.
Namecall much? :tsk:

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Annoy everyone you come into contact with much?


Go away.

[chazoe60]

My.....everybody's a critic, these days.
Namecall much? :tsk:

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

BTW I questioned his football inteligence, which is perfectly acceptable on a football MB.

[Broncogator]

Yeah I guess so. I don't think you guys really realize what you have here in this team, and Tebow is pretty much the center of it.

This team could be every bit as successful as the Patriots or Steelers or any of the other past dynasty teams for 7 or 8 years.

I think you are going to have to get a different coach though. Fox has some qualities that could make him a championship coach, and more that say he never will.

I tell you this though, Tebow is the only chance you have to get to that level. Unless you guys have a really poor season, and get to draft high when a difference maker quarterback is available.

I doubt you are going to get one in a trade. Even if you get someone like Tom Brady I think you are going to find the game has changed when you get one, and Tebow and Newton are the new ideal quarterbacks.

BTW I'm not an Elway hater. It's simply that I'm not sure he would make my top twenty of all time quarterbacks. Without sitting down and ranking them, here are some guys I think were better:

Bradshaw
Staubach
Montana
Young
Jurgensen
Van Brocklin
Otto Graham
Bart Starr
Y.A. Tittle
Brady
Rogers (a little young but he belongs)
Tarkenton
Sammy Baugh
Len Dawson (Elway has a case against him)
Griese (Same as Dawson)
Phil Simms

I'm sure if I thought about things a little more I could come up with more names.

Vinny Testaverde could have easily won two superbowls with those bronco teams (the late 90 ones).


You forgot Bubby Brister....:douchenozzel:

[MOtorboat]

I would honestly take Warren Moon over Fouts. Just my opinion.

I can see that. Moon was better than a number of names on the previous list too.

Len Dawson and Bob Griese? Those are the two that made me laugh the most.

[chazoe60]

I can see that. Moon was better than a number of names on the previous list too.

Len Dawson and Bob Griese? Those are the two that made me laugh the most.

Don't forget Phill Simms and Sonny Jurgenson.

[Northman]

Moon was real good but Fouts was a baller. Dude could sling it.

[Medford Bronco]

I can see that. Moon was better than a number of names on the previous list too.

Len Dawson and Bob Griese? Those are the two that made me laugh the most.

Vinny Interceptaverde and Simms made me laugh.

The guy that made Tampa wear white at home because he was color blind

I like simms but come on.

[spikerman]

I'm not sure what shows your lack of football inteligence more, the names on the list or the names you left off.

Considering the contents of your list how in the **** did you leave names like Unitas, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Brett Favre, Dan Marino, and Jim Kelly off?

I'm not saying those guys are all better than Elway but someone who would make the disturbingly stupid list you just made must believe all those guys are infinitely better. Or your just incredibly football moronic.
At first I thought sunbeam was kidding, but now I realize that he's probably just a "Tebowite" who has probably never actually watched an NFL game before this year. It makes a lot of sense now.

[Medford Bronco]

Moon was real good but Fouts was a baller. Dude could sling it.

Fouts actually won some playoff games. Moon I think may have won one.

I like Fouts better but Moon threw a pretty ball and played on teams with sucky defenses. Just ask him vs Buffalo and Denver in the early 90s in the playoffs. Some of the best games involved Houston blowing big leads in the playoffs.

[Medford Bronco]

At first I thought sunbeam was kidding, but now I realize that he's probably just a "Tebowite" who has probably never actually watched an NFL game before this year. It makes a lot of sense now.

and also stats lie.

Brian Griese had a better QB rating than Elway in Denver.

If you complete a pass for 6 yards on a 3rd and 10 it helps your QB rating.

So my eyes help tell me otherwise.

Also after 2004 the PI calls have gotten ridiculous. No way on Gods green earth in the 80s or even early 90s there are 3 QBs that throw for 5000 yards.

the game is arena league now and honestly it is a bit of a turnoff at times. I want to see the occasionaly 21-17 game. Not 41-38 fake flag football. I hate that so freaking much. Not that Rodgers, Brady and Brees are not all HOFers or potential HOFers (Rodgers) I just want to see balance and some form of the game that I grew up loving. Not arena fake football. Just my take, not gospel. The 98 Broncos were the perfect form of balance on offense and their defense was good enough.

Even the early 90s Cowboys played the football I love. Strong D, running game and good clutch QB play. Not 70 throws a game. Turnoff to me...

ready to be :flame: :target: lol

[chazoe60]

and also stats lie.

Brian Griese had a better QB rating than Elway in Denver.

If you complete a pass for 6 yards on a 3rd and 10 it helps your QB rating.

So my eyes help tell me otherwise.

Also after 2004 the PI calls have gotten ridiculous. No way on Gods green earth in the 80s or even early 90s there are 3 QBs that throw for 5000 yards.

the game is arena league now and honestly it is a bit of a turnoff at times. I want to see the occasionaly 21-17 game. Not 41-38 fake flag football. I hate that so freaking much. Not that Rodgers, Brady and Brees are not all HOFers or potential HOFers (Rodgers) I just want to see balance and some form of the game that I grew up loving. Not arena fake football. Just my take, not gospel. The 98 Broncos were the perfect form of balance on offense and their defense was good enough.

Even the early 90s Cowboys played the football I love. Strong D, running game and good clutch QB play. Not 70 throws a game. Turnoff to me...

ready to be :flame: :target: lol

I agree completely. It's sad to see defenders so hamstrung by rules that basically manufacture offense where it isn't deserved.

[sunbeam]

I'll stand by my list.

When I made it I was sitting at the computer and thinking about guys who I believe were better quarterbacks than John Elway.

Some of you came up with some good names that should go on that list ahead of Elway. Manning for sure. Probably Jim Kelly too.

You like to talk about Tebow fans, but you guys have made a cult of a guy with a rocket arm and a little mobility who was lucky enough to play for a great team at the end of his career.

Hell, Bert Jones had the same tools but didn't have the same luck at the end of his career.

Anyway good luck. If I feel like it I may be back next year. Really depends on what you do in the off season though.

Got to warn you though, Fox made the playoffs this year. That usually means he has a 4-12 or 6-10 team the next year. Maybe you beat the odds though.

[Medford Bronco]

I'll stand by my list.

When I made it I was sitting at the computer and thinking about guys who I believe were better quarterbacks than John Elway.

Some of you came up with some good names that should go on that list ahead of Elway. Manning for sure. Probably Jim Kelly too.

You like to talk about Tebow fans, but you guys have made a cult of a guy with a rocket arm and a little mobility who was lucky enough to play for a great team at the end of his career.

Hell, Bert Jones had the same tools but didn't have the same luck at the end of his career.

Anyway good luck. If I feel like it I may be back next year. Really depends on what you do in the off season though.

Got to warn you though, Fox made the playoffs this year. That usually means he has a 4-12 or 6-10 team the next year. Maybe you beat the odds though.

Little mobility, you are a fraud and obviously did not watch Elway play.

Bert Jones :lol: you must be either a pats fan as a troll or a Charger fan

[spikerman]

Little mobility, you are a fraud and obviously did not watch Elway play.

Bert Jones :lol: you must be either a pats fan as a troll or a Charger fan

Yeah, just somebody trolling. He was pretty good, though.

[Medford Bronco]

Yeah, just somebody trolling. He was pretty good, though.

I still get get over Vinnie Interceptaverde on that list. :lol:

and Phil Simms who was a nice player but basically got cut be the Giants at the end of his career and not offered a contract.

[spikerman]

I still get get over Vinnie Interceptaverde on that list. :lol:

and Phil Simms who was a nice player but basically got cut be the Giants at the end of his career and not offered a contract.

He should have had Jim Thorpe on that list. He must have been better than Elway. I'm not sure if he ever played QB, but he was still probably better.

I can't believe he left Trent Dilfer off either. He was obviously superior and he won a Super Bowl. Now that I think about it, was Elway actually better than any other quarterback? Ok, maybe Ryan Leaf........ I'm just kidding. Leaf was better too.

[MOtorboat]

I'll stand by my list.

When I made it I was sitting at the computer and thinking about guys who I believe were better quarterbacks than John Elway.

Some of you came up with some good names that should go on that list ahead of Elway. Manning for sure. Probably Jim Kelly too.

You like to talk about Tebow fans, but you guys have made a cult of a guy with a rocket arm and a little mobility who was lucky enough to play for a great team at the end of his career.

Hell, Bert Jones had the same tools but didn't have the same luck at the end of his career.

Anyway good luck. If I feel like it I may be back next year. Really depends on what you do in the off season though.

Got to warn you though, Fox made the playoffs this year. That usually means he has a 4-12 or 6-10 team the next year. Maybe you beat the odds though.

You'd also get laughed out of every conversation about it too.

[Medford Bronco]

He should have had Jim Thorpe on that list. He must have been better than Elway. I'm not sure if he ever played QB, but he was still probably better.

I can't believe he left Trent Dilfer off either. He was obviously superior and he won a Super Bowl. Now that I think about it, was Elway actually better than any other quarterback? Ok, maybe Ryan Leaf........ I'm just kidding. Leaf was better too.

wait I want Tommy Maddox

and of couse Craig Morton, he was the originial Number 7 and Elway should have worn a different number and was not worthy:lol:

I want Bledsoe, Stan Humphries, Dave Krieg, Steve DeBerg and Jim Plunkett as well. :lol:

this is fun trolling :D what a moron

[Dzone]

Tommy Maddox was drafted in 1992 in reaction to Elways dreadful play

[wayninja]

I'll stand by my list.

When I made it I was sitting at the computer and thinking about guys who I believe were better quarterbacks than John Elway.

Some of you came up with some good names that should go on that list ahead of Elway. Manning for sure. Probably Jim Kelly too.

You like to talk about Tebow fans, but you guys have made a cult of a guy with a rocket arm and a little mobility who was lucky enough to play for a great team at the end of his career.

Hell, Bert Jones had the same tools but didn't have the same luck at the end of his career.

Anyway good luck. If I feel like it I may be back next year. Really depends on what you do in the off season though.

Got to warn you though, Fox made the playoffs this year. That usually means he has a 4-12 or 6-10 team the next year. Maybe you beat the odds though.

Good riddance. There's enough stupidity in here already without you single-handedly ruining the average.

How do you argue with a guy who says with a straight face that Phil Simms was a better QB than John Elway?

[Medford Bronco]

Tommy Maddox was drafted in 1992 in reaction to Elways dreadful play

His one bad year in the middle of his career. He also had a sucky team a that time.

Maddox did a great job trying to be the heir apparent :lol:

the only mild success he had was in Pitt before Ben came.

[Broncogator]

John Elway is no Todd Blacklidge..:lol:

[d-towndefense49]

Wooord

[d-towndefense49]

So Bradshaw wins against the 49ers lol. You could have had Montana against himself in that game and he loses to a far superior team..

No go post in smack, you are certainly trying to egg people on. Today is a sucky day to be a bronco fan. So have fun:tsk:

Yeah I guess so. I don't think you guys really realize what you have here in this team, and Tebow is pretty much the center of it.

This team could be every bit as successful as the Patriots or Steelers or any of the other past dynasty teams for 7 or 8 years.

I think you are going to have to get a different coach though. Fox has some qualities that could make him a championship coach, and more that say he never will.

I tell you this though, Tebow is the only chance you have to get to that level. Unless you guys have a really poor season, and get to draft high when a difference maker quarterback is available.

I doubt you are going to get one in a trade. Even if you get someone like Tom Brady I think you are going to find the game has changed when you get one, and Tebow and Newton are the new ideal quarterbacks.

BTW I'm not an Elway hater. It's simply that I'm not sure he would make my top twenty of all time quarterbacks. Without sitting down and ranking them, here are some guys I think were better:

Bradshaw
Staubach
Montana
Young
Jurgensen
Van Brocklin
Otto Graham
Bart Starr
Y.A. Tittle
Brady
Rogers (a little young but he belongs)
Tarkenton
Sammy Baugh
Len Dawson (Elway has a case against him)
Griese (Same as Dawson)
Phil Simms

I'm sure if I thought about things a little more I could come up with more names.

Vinny Testaverde could have easily won two superbowls with those bronco teams (the late 90 ones)..

Rodgers? Phil simms? Did you watch sammie baugh? Otto graham?

[Medford Bronco]

John Elway is no Todd Blacklidge..:lol:

He is no Tony Eason or Kenny Obrien who are better corect :lol:

[weazel]

Fred Williams is a bust

[Fred Williams]

Agreed. The comparison was a moronic one at best.

Please take some time to think before posting. Its not a comparison between the skills of Tebow and Elway. It is to illustrate a point that certain fans will overreact (the dumb ones, and the on'es who hate Tebow because of their worldview and not because of football). It also puts things into perspective - even the great ones have bad games, and 90% of the great ones stunk it up for typically their first couple years in the league.

[MOtorboat]

Please take some time to think before posting. Its not a comparison between the skills of Tebow and Elway. It is to illustrate a point that certain fans will overreact (the dumb ones, and the on'es who hate Tebow because of their worldview and not because of football). It also puts things into perspective - even the great ones have bad games, and 90% of the great ones stunk it up for typically their first couple years in the league.

If it was just the one game, you'd have a point.

But we've heard the "even the great quarterbacks have bad games argument" after something like 13 or 14 of his 16 games.

At what point does it just become he can't cut it?

Compare him to contemporaries. That's a more valid point.

[Fred Williams]

This is one of the dumbest moronic posts of all time

Elway was a HOFer at that time playing in his 3rd Super Bowl. Yes he sucked on that day but did not complete under 50% on the season and could do simple things that NFL Qbs do

1. Throw a slant pass
2. Throw a spiral
3. Throw a 15 yard out pattern.

So in my assessment this is a jab at the "experts" that call tebow out.

Go watch some of Elways old games or are you to young to remember pre Super Bowl wins.

Well you are in luck, here are some examples.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNZGc3BzpWc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zFYwferLVQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmhWaAnga68&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXIt_9l023o&feature=related

Sorry Tebow is not even 1/3 as good as Elway. Nice kid but has a LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG way to go...

Dear Medford,

Please cut back on the meds, and add some meat to the diet instead of all that tofu you are feasting on. Your entire post is a strawman of my position. I happen to think that Elway is the best QB ever to play the game. I am not comparing Tebow to Elway, my point is this, I'm typing reallll slowwwww so that maybe you can understand - great players can have bad games, and certain dumb fans will demand their head prematurely, as was the case in much of Elways first 10 years or so (just ask Sandy CLough of the calls he got to start Kubiak over Elway). You cannot measure a guy's worth on a game, or a handful let of games, after just 16 starts.

Your pal,
Fred
PS. Elway was NOT considered a sure-fire HOFer at the time of the Super Bowl loss to SF. Talk of HoF status started after the Houston playoff game comeback victory in the early 90s.

[weazel]

Dear Medford,

Please cut back on the meds, and add some meat to the diet instead of all that tofu you are feasting on. Your entire post is a strawman of my position. I happen to think that Elway is the best QB ever to play the game. I am not comparing Tebow to Elway, my point is this, I'm typing reallll slowwwww so that maybe you can understand - great players can have bad games, and certain dumb fans will demand their head prematurely, as was the case in much of Elways first 10 years or so (just ask Sandy CLough of the calls he got to start Kubiak over Elway). You cannot measure a guy's worth on a game, or a handful let of games, after just 16 starts.

Your pal,
Fred
PS. Elway was NOT considered a sure-fire HOFer at the time of the Super Bowl loss to SF. Talk of HoF status started after the Houston playoff game comeback victory in the early 90s.

maybe you shouldnt have tried to bait everyone into an argument with your thread title then. You knew exactly what you were doing and now you're arguing about it? piss off

[BroncoJoe]

Dear Medford,

Please cut back on the meds, and add some meat to the diet instead of all that tofu you are feasting on. Your entire post is a strawman of my position. I happen to think that Elway is the best QB ever to play the game. I am not comparing Tebow to Elway, my point is this, I'm typing reallll slowwwww so that maybe you can understand - great players can have bad games, and certain dumb fans will demand their head prematurely, as was the case in much of Elways first 10 years or so (just ask Sandy CLough of the calls he got to start Kubiak over Elway). You cannot measure a guy's worth on a game, or a handful let of games, after just 16 starts.

Your pal,
Fred

I got your back, Fred. Many of these guys were too young to see the Broncos in the 80's or early 90's.

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[Nomad]

I got your back, Fred. Many of these guys were too young to see the Broncos in the 80's or early 90's.

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I was 10 when Elway became a BRONCO. I don't see how people can remember so much at that age.

[BroncoJoe]

I was 10 when Elway became a BRONCO. I don't see how people can remember so much at that age.

Kind of Fred's point. Elway is the face of this city now. But back then, he was a spoiled kid, making unbelievable amounts of money (highest contract in the NFL at the time) and his every move was critiqued. On and off the field. It would be very Tebow-esque had there been the internet and social media of today back then.

[Nomad]

Kind of Fred's point. Elway is the face of this city now. But back then, he was a spoiled kid, making unbelievable amounts of money (highest contract in the NFL at the time) and his every move was critiqued. On and off the field. It would be very Tebow-esque had there been the internet and social media of today back then.

I believe Fred's making some valid points.

[DenBronx]

Taste great!

Less filling!

[Joel]

I would honestly take Warren Moon over Fouts. Just my opinion.
I know I would, and think the teams Young inherited from Montana made him look much better than he actually was. HE'S probably the contemporary HoF QB most comparable to Tebow:

Big tackle breaking southpaw QB who's hard to tackle and always a break awy rushing threat, with a strong but sometimes erratic arm. Sound familiar? ;)

I'm not saying Tebow is or ever will be where Young finished, but consider: Steve Young spent four years in Tampa before they decided he was a bust, traded him to SF and drafted Heisman winning Testaverde.

For all who wish we could enter the Luck lottery: Transforming Steve Young from a bust to a Hall of Famer didn't take a better throwing motion, footwork, completion percentage etc. All it took was trading him to a better team and drafting a sure fire can't miss NFL ready QB, who soon had critical billboards of his own with which to contend in the same state that LOVED him when he was winning Heismans and NCAA "championships."

MOs list is still worlds better than the other one though. Graham may be the best ever (yeah, yeah "Super Joe;" Graham played the championship game EVERY SEASON OF HIS TEN YEAR CAREER--and only lost THREE TIMES!) but there's a ton of mediocre game managers on there who had the benefit Elway and Marino lacked of being surrounded by HoFers at every other position, and are not fit to wipe the shoes of Denver OR Miamis HoF QB. Simms? Griese? Starr? Seriously? If we had teams like theirs I wouldn't care who our QB is, and neither would anyone else. He'd still get all the credit though, and that those bums get listed as "greats" proves it.

[Joel]

and also stats lie.

Brian Griese had a better QB rating than Elway in Denver.

If you complete a pass for 6 yards on a 3rd and 10 it helps your QB rating.

So my eyes help tell me otherwise.
Ye gods, yes; according to the NFL Passer Rating system, 4 completions=1TD. It kinda brutalizes guys too much for picks, too, but it's obsession with completion percentage is BY FAR the biggest thing wrong with it. The reason is the effect: Because it's so critical to ratings everyone has come to point to completion percentage as the end all be all of QB stats, and the West Coast Offense is worshipped because it's 4 yard passes yield high completion percentages (and fewer first downs and scores accompanied by more pick sixes.)

Completion percentage is almost meaningless. Guys who gain lots of yards and score lots of points USUALLY have high completion percentages--but not always. Since yards and points actually affect the outcome of the game, guess which stat ISN'T the most important? Reading defences, finding open receivers and getting through progressions tends to produce high completion percentages--but it's important to distinguish cause from effect. While it has limited usage to indicate how well QBs do things that actually DO matter, completion percentage matters little in itself.

Also after 2004 the PI calls have gotten ridiculous. No way on Gods green earth in the 80s or even early 90s there are 3 QBs that throw for 5000 yards.

the game is arena league now and honestly it is a bit of a turnoff at times. I want to see the occasionaly 21-17 game. Not 41-38 fake flag football. I hate that so freaking much. Not that Rodgers, Brady and Brees are not all HOFers or potential HOFers (Rodgers) I just want to see balance and some form of the game that I grew up loving. Not arena fake football. Just my take, not gospel. The 98 Broncos were the perfect form of balance on offense and their defense was good enough.

Even the early 90s Cowboys played the football I love. Strong D, running game and good clutch QB play. Not 70 throws a game. Turnoff to me...

ready to be :flame: :target: lol
You have perfectly expressed my sentiments, and the reason I wanted the Texans and Giants to win today: Because they are among the few teams whose offense didn't carry their D to the playoffs (or, in a very few cases, vice versa.) The four worst defences contributed HALF the teams who made the Divisional round this year. It really is flag football, and even crappy teams have a shot to beat the best teams if they just heave it up and wait for either a PI or someone on the right team to run under the ball. That's not "parity" or "competitiveness," it's just luck.

And I know the NFL has an ulterior motive that trumps player safety: Ratings and revenue. The thing is, REAL long time fans like us are getting disgusted and wondering if rugby's a decent spectator sport, and guess who buys season tickets and wears their team jersey to watch the team play each week of every season. Not the 16 year old teeny bopper who watches most of the fourth quarter three times a year if the Pats happen to be playing and she can check out the guy on the cover of GQ. Flag football may get more people to casually watch some free broadcasts, but disgusts hardcore fans who keep the NFL in business.

Offenses better enjoy the ride, because I think the Leagues retreat this year on when it's a penalty to touch a QBs head signals they're about to restore some REAL competitiveness.

[Northman]

Please take some time to think before posting. Its not a comparison between the skills of Tebow and Elway. It is to illustrate a point that certain fans will overreact (the dumb ones, and the on'es who hate Tebow because of their worldview and not because of football). It also puts things into perspective - even the great ones have bad games, and 90% of the great ones stunk it up for typically their first couple years in the league.

Yet you took one game as your sample size. Im looking at the differences between both QB's because ive seen them both play. One is nothing like the other and one needs a HELL of a lot more work than the other. There's no overreaction from this guy, ive constantly pointed out the pro's and con's of Tim Tebow but your example is a very poor and moronic one. As others have said, maybe if you had taken the time to actually lay out what you were debating instead of the way you laid it out you wouldnt be taking as much flak. The way you laid out your thread puts the onus on you, reap what you sow mate.

[rcsodak]

BTW I questioned his football inteligence, which is perfectly acceptable on a football MB.
I was taught this new word....on this very forum.

Its called "insinuate".

Another one, is "imply".

K. Carry on.

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[chazoe60]

I was taught this new word....on this very forum.

Its called "insinuate".

Another one, is "imply".

K. Carry on.

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Well, you need to keep studying because I didn't "imply" or "insinuate" anything. I flat out told him he lacks football inteligence.

K. Carry on.

[Joel]

If it was just the one game, you'd have a point.

But we've heard the "even the great quarterbacks have bad games argument" after something like 13 or 14 of his 16 games.

At what point does it just become he can't cut it?

Compare him to contemporaries. That's a more valid point.
You think Tebow only had 2 or 3 non-crappy games all year? You must think EFX have a TERRIBLE eye for QBs then. By the way, guess who'll be drafting Tebows replacement. :eek:

Compare him to guys with 16 starts and/or second year players. That's the only reasonable way, and still doesn't take into account the relative talent of each TEAM. I'd take Vance Johnson TODAY over Decker or Royal.

[Northman]

I'd take Vance Johnson TODAY over Decker or Royal.

Dont know if your being sarcastic or what but if serious why? Going just by the first two years (because of Decker) Eric already has more TD receptions than Vance, Royal has the same amount in that span and in 10 years Vance only went over 1,000 yds receving once. Even Deckers yards per catch is higher than Vance's was.

[wayninja]

Dont know if your being sarcastic or what but if serious why? Going just by the first two years (because of Decker) Eric already has more TD receptions than Vance, Royal has the same amount in that span and in 10 years Vance only went over 1,000 yds receving once. Even Deckers yards per catch is higher than Vance's was.

He was serious. When he's joking he conforms to Poe's law and uses smileys. No smiley = dead serious. :D

[Joel]

Dont know if your being sarcastic or what but if serious why? Going just by the first two years (because of Decker) Eric already has more TD receptions than Vance, Royal has the same amount in that span and in 10 years Vance only went over 1,000 yds receving once. Even Deckers yards per catch is higher than Vance's was.
Serious but hyperbolic. *smacks wayninja with a trout* :tongue: Anyone who was starting for Denver when I was in HS is too old to start now.

I'm just tired of waiting for Royal to use some of that great return speed and moves receiving. Decker, well, if he remembers how to catch I like how he started the year, but he turned into Flipper a couple months ago.

[Lancane]

Elway could throw a tight spiral, was accurate and could make all the throws, there is a difference, the only things Timmy shares with Elway is his drive to win, his clutch ability and leadership qualities, other then that...this becomes pointless.

[Joel]

I dunno, I think people forget that, while Elway was no Young or Cunningham, he was a big hard to tackle guy who could move downfield when he wanted, not just on scrambles, but when everyone was covered and he called his own number. I guess, being from Houston, I remember it better than most. :tsk:

[Lancane]

I dunno, I think people forget that, while Elway was no Young or Cunningham, he was a big hard to tackle guy who could move downfield when he wanted, not just on scrambles, but when everyone was covered and he called his own number. I guess, being from Houston, I remember it better than most. :tsk:

But there is a difference Joel, scrambling was just another asset Elway brought to the table, he wasn't drafted for his ability to escape the pocket under pressure but rather for his arm which was one of the best during his day. Cunningham and Young while considered scrambling quarterbacks likewise had solid arms and could throw the ball just as good as running the ball. No one has forgotten that aspect which Elway had brought, but it's not the most important asset for a quarterback, it's a huge plus should you have a quarterback who can, but the ability to throw the ball quickly with good accuracy is far more important and proof is evident. Of those quarterbacks still in the playoffs, only one has a completion percentage below 61.0 percent, which would be Joe Flacco and he's got a completion percentage of 57.6, Tebow had the leagues worst completion percentage with a staggering 46.5 percent, that's horrendous in today's NFL, Curtis Painter had a better completion percentage then Tebow. Statistically he's the worst starting quarterback in almost all categories give turnovers.

He needs to vastly improve and that means throwing the ball, he won't remain a starter in this league if he struggles to complete even half of his throws.

[Joel]

But, like I said, Elway didn't just scramble; even when he had good protection, if he saw no one was getting open, he'd take off and run for it. Like on probably the most famous play of his career: The Helicopter. He wasn't under pressure, he saw the only way we were getting a first down was if he ran for it--so he did, and got us 1st and G.

Tebow's got the arm; he chucked a lot of balls a long way against Pitt (often against the kind of tight coverage you'd expect from a Pro Bowl CB like Ike Taylor.) That was far from the first time. The knock on him is his accuracy; ironically, the very reason I preferred Aikman to Young (OK, maybe the fact my dad raised me a Cowboys fan and I hate '9ers played a SMALL role. :tongue:)

Thing is, he had one of the highest completion percentages in NCAA history. I know, I know, that was college; college ball impresses me so unfavorably I never follow it. In terms of hitting what you aim at it doesn't matter. If anything, the difference is that college receivers don't have the "adjustment window" of pro receivers, and college linemen don't pass block like the Patriots.

Tebow CAN hit his targets; he simply must improve at making reads, anticipating breaks and getting through progressions faster so he FINDS them. The days when he routinely under/overthrew receivers are gone, and the days when he threw into double coverage have, unlike 95% of young QBs, never been.

Incidentally, I disagree running is a luxury rather than necessity in a QB. The best passers can get by with less of it, but must be Peyton and Brady to survive with NONE. They better have similar pass blocking, too, or they'll leave the field on a stretcher. The best QBs pass well from the pocket, but name three true pocket passers who aren't embarrassments. Even Eli is dangerous with his feet at need--because the need is FREQUENT.

The prototypical modern QB is Rodgers or Vick; draft an elite pocket passer like Troy Aikman and you better have a line like the '93 Cowboys, or his career will end with a two concussion season like Aikmans did. As I also noted elsewhere, guess who were the two best pocket passers Denver had since Elway left? Brian Griese and Kyle Orton, guys we booed out of town for eating sacks (but very accurate short passers.)

[TXBRONC]

didn't elway have have like 3 TDs, to his 10 INTS in all of his Superbowl runs??

That sounds about right.

[HammeredOut]

Bradshaw is not a better QB than Elway. Not even close.

He played on Better teams but is not better.

Staubach was better than Bradshaw. I wish Elway could have arguably the best defense of all time to help him in the 70s. The Bronco teams of the 80s were not that great. Elway willed those teams with clutch play and a weak AFC to get to Super Bowls. Pitt is the 2nd best team of all time IMHO next to the 80s 49ers...

I find it amusing that fans have 2 arguments for Elway. They will talk about regular season "Wins", but they fail to look at "Individual Stats".

Sure Bradshaw had a great team. So did Elway. What it took about 8 HOF or future HOF for Elway to win a couple of Superbowl Rings. We are talking about a 2000 yard back, and TE who racks up a 1000, and Rod Smith. Let alone the top 5 defense we had.

A ton of fans either fail to forget or didn't realize that John Elway was the next Jim Kelly who never won the big game and always choked. Then we armed him with a future HOFs.

I don't think anybody who actually watched Elway in the 80s and say he was great, is in denial. I mean our First Superbowl win, Elway only had 123 yards in the air with 2 INTS. Which is why I think alot of fans on this board didn't watch football, or the players we are discussing. Our First Superbowl was because of our defense.

I'd say Elway is "Great" by having a long career as a starter. Even Elway in all of his years of play only had 2 seasons better then Kyle Ortons Passer Rating when Orton was a 1st year Bronco Starter. And in his first 12 seasons, only passed for more then 20 TDs, two times. Look at all the great passers of the 80s and 90s, and compare if you didn't watch. A ton of QBs had better statistical seasons. As a fan, I would trade the first 14 years of Elway for anybody but Elway. The last 4 years of Elways career is what made him the iconic symbol he is now. But media, and the average fans don't understand Statistics, and the validity of them.

[GODBLESS#15]

Elway was a great QB, And is doing a great job now!!!!

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[Lancane]

I find it amusing that fans have 2 arguments for Elway. They will talk about regular season "Wins", but they fail to look at "Individual Stats".

Sure Bradshaw had a great team. So did Elway. What it took about 8 HOF or future HOF for Elway to win a couple of Superbowl Rings. We are talking about a 2000 yard back, and TE who racks up a 1000, and Rod Smith. Let alone the top 5 defense we had.

A ton of fans either fail to forget or didn't realize that John Elway was the next Jim Kelly who never won the big game and always choked. Then we armed him with a future HOFs.

I don't think anybody who actually watched Elway in the 80s and say he was great, is in denial. I mean our First Superbowl win, Elway only had 123 yards in the air with 2 INTS. Which is why I think alot of fans on this board didn't watch football, or the players we are discussing. Our First Superbowl was because of our defense.

I'd say Elway is "Great" by having a long career as a starter. Even Elway in all of his years of play only had 2 seasons better then Kyle Ortons Passer Rating when Orton was a 1st year Bronco Starter. And in his first 12 seasons, only passed for more then 20 TDs, two times. Look at all the great passers of the 80s and 90s, and compare if you didn't watch. A ton of QBs had better statistical seasons. As a fan, I would trade the first 14 years of Elway for anybody but Elway. The last 4 years of Elways career is what made him the iconic symbol he is now. But media, and the average fans don't understand Statistics, and the validity of them.

Utter bull****, I hate Tebow fanatics so blind they ramble crap that is completely false. Few quarterbacks had better seasons statistically during that time frame, he was the winningest quarterback in the NFL for some time (fact), he was a nine time Pro-Bowl selection (fact), he won the NFL Passing Title (fact), he was an NFL MVP (fact), he was named All-Pro three times (fact), he was named to the 90's All Decade Team (fact), he was a two time AFC Offensive Player of the Year (fact), he led the Broncos to five AFC Championships and five Super Bowls (fact)...do I need to continue? Oh, and by the way...most of those honors were given before he had the so-called HOF help!

This is the annoying, overzealous nonsense that has some of us wishing the kid was never drafted by the Broncos, he hasn't earned a damn thing. Even the Pro Bowl voting was a snuff, because in all honesty, he is not a Pro-Bowl caliber quarterback, at least not yet, sadly having a delusion cult following seems to have it's benefits, it helps you get something you haven't earned.

:coffee:

[chazoe60]

I find it amusing that fans have 2 arguments for Elway. They will talk about regular season "Wins", but they fail to look at "Individual Stats".

Sure Bradshaw had a great team. So did Elway. What it took about 8 HOF or future HOF for Elway to win a couple of Superbowl Rings. We are talking about a 2000 yard back, and TE who racks up a 1000, and Rod Smith. Let alone the top 5 defense we had.

A ton of fans either fail to forget or didn't realize that John Elway was the next Jim Kelly who never won the big game and always choked. Then we armed him with a future HOFs.

I don't think anybody who actually watched Elway in the 80s and say he was great, is in denial. I mean our First Superbowl win, Elway only had 123 yards in the air with 2 INTS. Which is why I think alot of fans on this board didn't watch football, or the players we are discussing. Our First Superbowl was because of our defense.

I'd say Elway is "Great" by having a long career as a starter. Even Elway in all of his years of play only had 2 seasons better then Kyle Ortons Passer Rating when Orton was a 1st year Bronco Starter. And in his first 12 seasons, only passed for more then 20 TDs, two times. Look at all the great passers of the 80s and 90s, and compare if you didn't watch. A ton of QBs had better statistical seasons. As a fan, I would trade the first 14 years of Elway for anybody but Elway. The last 4 years of Elways career is what made him the iconic symbol he is now. But media, and the average fans don't understand Statistics, and the validity of them.
This shit again HO? Prepare for your well deserved flaming.

[chazoe60]

Lan, HO hates Tebow. He is not at all a Tebow a fanatic, just a very uninformed football fan.

[spikerman]

John Madden (a pretty knowledgeable guy and no fan of the Broncos) once called Elway "the closest thing to a one man gang the NFL has ever seen." Not too shabby for a QB who wasn't that good, eh?

[Jsteve01]

I find it amusing that fans have 2 arguments for Elway. They will talk about regular season "Wins", but they fail to look at "Individual Stats".

Sure Bradshaw had a great team. So did Elway. What it took about 8 HOF or future HOF for Elway to win a couple of Superbowl Rings. We are talking about a 2000 yard back, and TE who racks up a 1000, and Rod Smith. Let alone the top 5 defense we had.

A ton of fans either fail to forget or didn't realize that John Elway was the next Jim Kelly who never won the big game and always choked. Then we armed him with a future HOFs.

I don't think anybody who actually watched Elway in the 80s and say he was great, is in denial. I mean our First Superbowl win, Elway only had 123 yards in the air with 2 INTS. Which is why I think alot of fans on this board didn't watch football, or the players we are discussing. Our First Superbowl was because of our defense.

I'd say Elway is "Great" by having a long career as a starter. Even Elway in all of his years of play only had 2 seasons better then Kyle Ortons Passer Rating when Orton was a 1st year Bronco Starter. And in his first 12 seasons, only passed for more then 20 TDs, two times. Look at all the great passers of the 80s and 90s, and compare if you didn't watch. A ton of QBs had better statistical seasons. As a fan, I would trade the first 14 years of Elway for anybody but Elway. The last 4 years of Elways career is what made him the iconic symbol he is now. But media, and the average fans don't understand Statistics, and the validity of them.


Give John Kelly's o line Andre Reed, Thurman Thomas and that nasty defense and the first Super Bowl loss for Kelly wouldn't even have been close.

And Im sorry but it was the first 14 that made him what he is now. The Super bowls were just the icing

[MOtorboat]

Watch football, huh, HO? Well, if you were watching you'd know John Elway went to three Super Bowls before Kelly went to one, so I guess we can pretty much discount that bullshit nugget. Probably can dismiss the rest of it too.

[Jsteve01]

I find it amusing that fans have 2 arguments for Elway. They will talk about regular season "Wins", but they fail to look at "Individual Stats".

Sure Bradshaw had a great team. So did Elway. What it took about 8 HOF or future HOF for Elway to win a couple of Superbowl Rings. We are talking about a 2000 yard back, and TE who racks up a 1000, and Rod Smith. Let alone the top 5 defense we had.

A ton of fans either fail to forget or didn't realize that John Elway was the next Jim Kelly who never won the big game and always choked. Then we armed him with a future HOFs.

I don't think anybody who actually watched Elway in the 80s and say he was great, is in denial. I mean our First Superbowl win, Elway only had 123 yards in the air with 2 INTS. Which is why I think alot of fans on this board didn't watch football, or the players we are discussing. Our First Superbowl was because of our defense.

I'd say Elway is "Great" by having a long career as a starter. Even Elway in all of his years of play only had 2 seasons better then Kyle Ortons Passer Rating when Orton was a 1st year Bronco Starter. And in his first 12 seasons, only passed for more then 20 TDs, two times. Look at all the great passers of the 80s and 90s, and compare if you didn't watch. A ton of QBs had better statistical seasons. As a fan, I would trade the first 14 years of Elway for anybody but Elway. The last 4 years of Elways career is what made him the iconic symbol he is now. But media, and the average fans don't understand Statistics, and the validity of them.

oh and Stalworth and Swann to throw to didn't hurt the guy much eh? Every knowledgeable nfl pundit has Elway as a top three qb of all time. It is was it is. Different era and horrid, I mean horrid offensive players and system. You're acting like Elway played in a vacuum and forgetting how much the system and players around him hampered his ability to perform

[Jsteve01]

and I've played in a flag league with Mark Jackson and Vance Johnson. Mark was the nicest guy in the world. VAnce as reported is a huge douche. All that said I know it was 10 years after they played but the talent really wasn't very impressive. No offense at all to them but they shouldn't have been starting WRs in the league

[Medford Bronco]

Dear Medford,

Please cut back on the meds, and add some meat to the diet instead of all that tofu you are feasting on. Your entire post is a strawman of my position. I happen to think that Elway is the best QB ever to play the game. I am not comparing Tebow to Elway, my point is this, I'm typing reallll slowwwww so that maybe you can understand - great players can have bad games, and certain dumb fans will demand their head prematurely, as was the case in much of Elways first 10 years or so (just ask Sandy CLough of the calls he got to start Kubiak over Elway). You cannot measure a guy's worth on a game, or a handful let of games, after just 16 starts.

Your pal,
Fred
PS. Elway was NOT considered a sure-fire HOFer at the time of the Super Bowl loss to SF. Talk of HoF status started after the Houston playoff game comeback victory in the early 90s.


I am great with my meds thank you.

BTW comparing a qb from 1983-84 to 2011-2012 is irrelevant.

I wish Elway had all the rules that protect the QB in place when he was young. All the fake defenses Tebow faced this year.

Maybe I am a bit over the top, (okay I am lol) I just think Teboites are over the top as well. I want to see at least 55% competion in todays NFL, not the one from 1983. I still think by 1992 Elway was a fringe HOFer and I wont move off of that. He did get better when he got a running game and a semblence of a defense under Shanahan.

We can agree to disagree. I was young in 1983 and now am 40 and have never lived in Denver, so my perspective is propbably off.

I want any Denver QB to succeed, even if we had a douche like Rivers.

So I was making a point and am still steamed living in Boston as a Bronco fan.

take care and nice debate :salute:

[Medford Bronco]

and I've played in a flag league with Mark Jackson and Vance Johnson. Mark was the nicest guy in the world. VAnce as reported is a huge douche. All that said I know it was 10 years after they played but the talent really wasn't very impressive. No offense at all to them but they shouldn't have been starting WRs in the league

They might be better now with the fake defenses that the mostly NFL now has and all the flags that are favored to the PI calls and holding etc.

the Bill Polian wussification of the league.