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View Full Version : Profootball Focus....how did we really do against Pitt???



Elevation inc
01-12-2012, 12:28 AM
so as a premium member at PFF i have access to quite a few stats that really grade our players in a unbiased format...with that in mind I wanted to see how we did against Pitt and what were the true underlying performances......

OFFENSE-

Great-
Tim Tebow

Good-
Demaryius Thomas
Zane Beadles

Avg-
Orlando Franklin
Eddie royal
Dante Rosario
Daniel Fells
Lance Ball
Jeremiah Johnson
Matt willis
Tony Hills

Bad-
JD walton
Ryan Clady
Eric decker(poor guy on the injury)
Russ Hochstein
Virgil Green
Chris Clark

Horrible-
Mcghaee(his worst graded game of the year)



DEFENSE

Great-
Robert Ayers
Von Miller
Champ Bailey

Good-
Brodrick Bunkley

Avg-
Dumervil
Goodman
Carter
Bruton
Unrein
Haggan
Bush
Harris
woodyard

Bad-
Hunter

Horrible-
Mays(worst game of the year from him, he missed 7 tackles in 1 game)
Marcus Thomas
Ryan Mcbean





Also some season side notes about the OL and WR's, QB and Von miller

OL overall rankings- ranked 31 of 32 in pass blocking/ranked 30 of 32 in run blocking

Clady- ranked 66 out of 76 graded tackles
Beadles- ranked 74 out of 77 graded guards
Walton- ranked 35 out of 35 graded centers
Kuper- ranked 57 out of 77 graded tackles
Franklin- ranked 47 out of 76 graded tackles

WR Rankings-

DT- Graded 57 out of 115 Graded Wr's
Decker- Graded 90 out of 115 Graded Wr's
lloyd(gone but for fun)- Graded 24 out of 115 Graded Wr's
Gaffney(gone but for fun)- Graded 25 out of 115 graded Wr's
Royal- Graded 106 out of 115 Graded wr's
Willis- Graded 63 out of 115 Graded Wr's

Qb Rankings

Tebow- Graded 30 out of 38 Qb's
Orton(gone but for fun)- Graded 23 out of 38 Qb's



Also Von miller had the highest overall LB ranking period hands down, 62 total pressures(12.5 sacks, 20 Qb hits, 30 pressures)this year(ranked 9th overall as a pass rusher in the 3-4/4-3) and the highest run defense ranking #1 for a LB in the 4-3 or 3-4. He also is the Only LB in the NFL 3-4 or 4-3 scheme not to miss a tackle period!....thats insane.....


to conclude our offense is young and needs work, but we are on a upswing and finishing tough as a Unit! Good to see as we can use the momentum going into next off-season. Our defense has some power pieces and some 2nd and 3rd year players making strides, but we still need to attend to some areas with legit depth......Also Von miller should hands down be rookie of the year......

chazoe60
01-12-2012, 01:07 AM
I thought Clady did very good making Harrison pretty much a non factor in the game. What did I miss?

Elevation inc
01-12-2012, 01:15 AM
I thought Clady did very good making Harrison pretty much a non factor in the game. What did I miss?

his run blocking grade was putrid....

shank
01-12-2012, 08:12 AM
thanks for the info buddy!

rcsodak
01-12-2012, 08:40 AM
And yet clady is in the PB. :rolleyes:
Would be nice if there'd be an explanation on how they graded out the pitt game. DT "good"? And i musta missed JJohnson. Royal just "avg" after his td catch?

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Elevation inc
01-12-2012, 12:01 PM
And yet clady is in the PB. :rolleyes:
Would be nice if there'd be an explanation on how they graded out the pitt game. DT "good"? And i musta missed JJohnson. Royal just "avg" after his td catch?

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its well known this was a bad year for clady........

as for the scale=

0.0-(-1.0)= poor, -1.0-(-3.0)=bad, -3.0 or worse= Horrible...0.0-1.0= Avg, 1.0-3.0= good, 3.0 or above=great

NightTerror218
01-12-2012, 01:57 PM
I thought Clady did very good making Harrison pretty much a non factor in the game. What did I miss?

I saw harrison get faked out a lot during the game and take horrible angles on trying to contain tebow.

wayninja
01-12-2012, 02:07 PM
Jeremiah Johnson and Eddie Royal both had average performances?

One caught a fantastic circus TD catch and the other... I'm not sure if I saw him on the field.

Buff
01-12-2012, 02:13 PM
Not trying to shoot the messenger, I appreciate you sharing, but these overall offensive line grades are absurd.

We had the best rushing team in the league. Phil Simms said on Inside the NFL last night that he thought the Broncos were on the verge of having the best OL in the league. You're telling me that Ryan Clady is one of the worst tackles in the league this year? And that as an aggregate we graded out as the 3rd worse run blocking team? That is clearly inaccurate and doesn't even pass the common sense test.

Elevation inc
01-12-2012, 08:46 PM
Not trying to shoot the messenger, I appreciate you sharing, but these overall offensive line grades are absurd.

We had the best rushing team in the league. Phil Simms said on Inside the NFL last night that he thought the Broncos were on the verge of having the best OL in the league. You're telling me that Ryan Clady is one of the worst tackles in the league this year? And that as an aggregate we graded out as the 3rd worse run blocking team? That is clearly inaccurate and doesn't even pass the common sense test.



uh yeah thats exactly what I'm saying.....Clady has been horrible this year in comparison to what we expect.....phil simms is a talking head not a stat site that spends 24 hours a day analyzing game tape from coaches.....he sees what fans see, which is never the big picture....

Elevation inc
01-12-2012, 08:51 PM
Not trying to shoot the messenger, I appreciate you sharing, but these overall offensive line grades are absurd.

We had the best rushing team in the league. Phil Simms said on Inside the NFL last night that he thought the Broncos were on the verge of having the best OL in the league. You're telling me that Ryan Clady is one of the worst tackles in the league this year? And that as an aggregate we graded out as the 3rd worse run blocking team? That is clearly inaccurate and doesn't even pass the common sense test.



actually its very easy to see mcghaee who is 3rd in the NFL in yds after contact and tebow make the OL look better than they are in the run game, its why when ball is in there its more like runinng into a wall.......not to mention our scheme and misdirection is a big factor.....whats funny is the grades are similar to last year when we couldnt run the ball with buck and moreno and a spread.....change the runner and Qb, and scheme and hey imagine that....doesnt mean its the OL being elite....

Elevation inc
01-12-2012, 08:52 PM
I thought Clady did very good making Harrison pretty much a non factor in the game. What did I miss?

he did fine in pass protection, but he was horrible in run blocking he allowed 5 LOS stops thats bad.....

Elevation inc
01-12-2012, 08:55 PM
Jeremiah Johnson and Eddie Royal both had average performances?

One caught a fantastic circus TD catch and the other... I'm not sure if I saw him on the field.

he was in for 3 plays....he blocked on all 3....his grade was +0.6...HAHAHA

also eddie had 3 catches for 30 some yds and The TD, his catch rating was good....his blocking grade not so much, it was bad which makes his overall game average....this site is big picture in all facets of your job during a game to include penalties.....

Elevation inc
01-12-2012, 08:56 PM
I saw harrison get faked out a lot during the game and take horrible angles on trying to contain tebow.

exactly more tebow then clady...its just how it is....

bcbronc
01-12-2012, 08:59 PM
actually its very easy to see mcghaee who is 3rd in the NFL in yds after contact and tebow make the OL look better than they are in the run game, its why when ball is in there its more like runinng into a wall.......not to mention our scheme and misdirection is a big factor.....whats funny is the grades are similar to last year when we couldnt run the ball with buck and moreno and a spread.....change the runner and Qb, and scheme and hey imagine that....doesnt mean its the OL being elite....

there's a lot of middle ground between one of the worst OLs in the league and "elite". Seems silly to say that McGahee broke so many tackles that his team lead the league in rushing.

It just doesn't make sense. "...our scheme and misdirection..." guess what, it takes OL doing their job to make schemes and misdirection work.

Now I'm not saying I think our OL is the best in the league, but easily middle of the pack at worst. I know you're paying good money to access those stats, but imo you're being ripped off. You'd be better off just watching the games yourself and actually seeing what the OL is doing. To each their own though.

bcbronc
01-12-2012, 09:07 PM
he did fine in pass protection, but he was horrible in run blocking he allowed 5 LOS stops thats bad.....

so when Pittsburgh lines up 9 guys in the box and run blitzes every gap, how do your stats decide who's to blame? Early in the game, Pitt simply brought more than we could block, completely selling out to stop the run (which burned them in the end). If they're coming into their analysis with the mindset that every tackler had a potential blocker, that's a fatal flaw imo.

I dunno, stats are interesting as a way to complement a discussion, but when they end up so far removed from the reality they're supposed to explain, they seem useless to me.

Joel
01-12-2012, 09:19 PM
uh yeah thats exactly what I'm saying.....Clady has been horrible this year in comparison to what we expect.....phil simms is a talking head not a stat site that spends 24 hours a day analyzing game tape from coaches.....he sees what fans see, which is never the big picture....
You're being overly kind to Simms there: Heads have BRAINS. ;)

But you know how this ends: You point out McGahee and Tebow are big, powerful tackle-breaking runners and we're 4th in attempts; the other person insists we can't be 1st in yards unless the line opens holes, etc. etc. :tsk:

Thanks for the ratings though; even if I can't really draw specific conclusions without getting the subscriptions and more precise numbers, ball park estimates have some value.

he was in for 3 plays....he blocked on all 3....his grade was +0.6...HAHAHA
REALLY like that kid, I hope he can beat Ball out in camp to backup McGahee next year. Great blocker, good receiver; haven't seen him run enough to know how he is at that, but if BALL'S the competition....

He ought to have done enough to stay off the PS and on the full roster, but I guess they'll juggle all that again once camp starts.

Buff
01-12-2012, 10:27 PM
uh yeah thats exactly what I'm saying.....Clady has been horrible this year in comparison to what we expect.....phil simms is a talking head not a stat site that spends 24 hours a day analyzing game tape from coaches.....he sees what fans see, which is never the big picture....

It's impossible for me to sit here and counter stats with anecdotes and win the argument. Suffice to say I just don't believe Ryan Clady was 66/76 out of all the tackles that played regularly this year. And I don't believe the 3rd worst run blocking line could produce a #1 rushing team - production is production.

We ran a pretty weird offense this year that switched a quarter of the way through the season, so you've probably gotta cut all these guys some slack if they missed more assignments than in previous years. A couple missed assignments are going to drop a guy's grade, but may not reflect his overall value to the team.

BeefStew25
01-12-2012, 10:29 PM
And we are one of the top 8 teams. Eff the rankings. Eff the Steelers, and eff the Pats.

muse
01-13-2012, 04:55 AM
There are a few guys I've chatted with on MHR and the other boards who have coached OLs before and say that the PFF grading system for offensive linemen is pretty sucky. I think we're middle of the pack - young and making mistakes but still effective. Clady's having an off year but isn't that bad.

Elevation inc
01-13-2012, 08:34 AM
There are a few guys I've chatted with on MHR and the other boards who have coached OLs before and say that the PFF grading system for offensive linemen is pretty sucky. I think we're middle of the pack - young and making mistakes but still effective. Clady's having an off year but isn't that bad.

ryan clady gave up six sacks, 3 qb hits and 32 pressures, and had a -17.1 run grade and -5.4 penalty grade

orlando franklin gave up six sacks, 7 qb hits, 28 pressures, had a -3.1 run grade, and 0.5 penalty grade....


Clady didnt have a off year???? lol




zane beadles and walton have been horrible all year if you wacth games and only watch them every game in replay there grades back that up. The good news is that Beadles may have turned a corner up....his playoff game was his best of his career and that was agaisnt the number 1 defense.....Walton has had 1 very good game all year and that was against Oakland.....all though there was a play in the pitt game where he put 2 DL on there ass, it was my favorite play of the year from him.




The good news about all this is your right about our youth, and Im willing to give beadles and walton a full off-season to get stronger and use OTa's etc....Clady i think just isnt 100% in run blocking cause he is still recovering his form pre-injury. Franklin as a rookie in year 1 hasnt been bad so thats good news, I wanted franklin moved from RT, but his grades and stats back-up that he can play there and just needs a off-season. Kuper was our best OL all year, but his injury is drastic.

I would like to keep the OL together and add a guard in the draft and a Vet Center....We have Harris and chris clark to back up at tackle, so my concersn are legit but not as big once i consider the big picture.


Im coming off my drastic get rid of beadles and walton campign, as i see the big picture, but anyone claiming our Ol palyed great all year or that these players are great isnt being correct.....

part of the problem to is that a few games tebow screwed them in pass protection I get that, but there were also a few games the OL did no favors to the offense.....

The more I look at the game splits the more i Think the OL was just so boom or bust...There are some awsome games by the OL, but then there is some downright putrid games......I think if they continue to gel and get consistent, then were good.....that i think is the issue consitency, the OL has great games then bad games so if we get the consitency and gelling down the resuts will improve on a weekly basis....

Coaches in the NFL use PFF for grades, Players go to PFF to look at there grades.......

Elevation inc
01-13-2012, 08:47 AM
so when Pittsburgh lines up 9 guys in the box and run blitzes every gap, how do your stats decide who's to blame? Early in the game, Pitt simply brought more than we could block, completely selling out to stop the run (which burned them in the end). If they're coming into their analysis with the mindset that every tackler had a potential blocker, that's a fatal flaw imo.

I dunno, stats are interesting as a way to complement a discussion, but when they end up so far removed from the reality they're supposed to explain, they seem useless to me.

that doesnt go against clady, the grade reflects in 1v1 blocking and your job during the play. If its a run left and your DL across from you owns you and stuffs the guy through you at the LOS thats a LOS stop.....and if you watch games we cant run to left for shit.....however I will say i think they made a mistake on 1 play, i think the LOS stop was roasrio's fault not clady as clady went to cut down on hampton.....so its actually 4 LOS stops watching replay, but they get game tape as well, so maybe clady made the wrong move(i doubt that that though).....


As i just mentioned I think its just been so boom or bust that the grades have been bad overall for the year.....There was 1 game for instance where beadles had a -10.4 grade in run blocking, but his next 2 games were +.05 and +0.8 (those 2 games we ran the Option against Oakland and KC), I think this is happening alot, if I compare the game replay, to these stats it seems we just need cosnistency, which is hard being the youngest OL, I get that......and Im backing off my they suck mantra because of this....The beginning of the year wasnt kind either so was it orton or was it the OL.....valid question there!

I also will say Penalties hurt clady and beadles this year, they both got pegegd for holding and false start quite a bit....not sure whats the issue there....that grade affects them as well.....

muse
01-13-2012, 08:51 AM
ryan clady gave up six sacks, 3 qb hits and 32 pressures, and had a -17.1 run grade and -5.4 penalty grade

orlando franklin gave up six sacks, 7 qb hits, 28 pressures, had a -3.1 run grade, and 0.5 penalty grade....


Clady didnt have a off year???? lol

I did say that Clady's having an off year.




Coaches in the NFL use PFF for grades, Players go to PFF to look at there grades.......

According to whom out of interest?

Ultimately, opinion on Denver's OL performance has ranged from "the best in the NFL" (thank you Merrill Hoge) to "one of the bottom 3 in the NFL" (PFF). Yes, our scheme does use a lot of misdirection, but if our OL were truly that bad, we wouldn't be averaging 4.8 ypc. We grind out a lot of 3 yard runs and the like. As I mentioned, there are quite a few people with OL coaching experience who disagree with PFF's gradings for the OL. I think PFF does a great job in a lot of areas, but I just don't think we've been as bad as they suggest. Inconsistent yes, but not consistently bad as PFF would have us believe.

Tned
01-13-2012, 08:52 AM
Not trying to shoot the messenger, I appreciate you sharing, but these overall offensive line grades are absurd.

We had the best rushing team in the league. Phil Simms said on Inside the NFL last night that he thought the Broncos were on the verge of having the best OL in the league. You're telling me that Ryan Clady is one of the worst tackles in the league this year? And that as an aggregate we graded out as the 3rd worse run blocking team? That is clearly inaccurate and doesn't even pass the common sense test.

It's important to remember that through the first four games, the Broncos were in the mid 20's in rushing and both the media and much of BF were slamming the O-line for their inability to run or pass block. Then, Tebow takes over and the thread of Tebow running completely changed the dynamic of the run game, combined with a change to more zone blocking a couple games later.

Now, I think the O-line has also greatly improved during the course of the year, and it isn't just the threat of Tebow running, but that clearly is the major factor in Broncos going from mid 20's in rushing to first in about 4 1/2 games.

Elevation inc
01-13-2012, 09:00 AM
and im spending the last 2 days doing just that going over everything, I am now cutting them some slack but the results and stats are still the results and stats....


in fact its kinda like tebow just becasue his stats suck, doesnt mean he isnt important to the team....

I get that and wacthing there game splits i see that its just inconsistency and youth, but when they do play bad its bad.....part of that could be there 3rd different blocking scheme in 2 years.....I get that as well

Elevation inc
01-13-2012, 09:04 AM
I did say that Clady's having an off year.




According to whom out of interest?

Ultimately, opinion on Denver's OL performance has ranged from "the best in the NFL" (thank you Merrill Hoge) to "one of the bottom 3 in the NFL" (PFF). Yes, our scheme does use a lot of misdirection, but if our OL were truly that bad, we wouldn't be averaging 4.8 ypc. We grind out a lot of 3 yard runs and the like. As I mentioned, there are quite a few people with OL coaching experience who disagree with PFF's gradings for the OL. I think PFF does a great job in a lot of areas, but I just don't think we've been as bad as they suggest. Inconsistent yes, but not consistently bad as PFF would have us believe.



Them go to there site and ask any question you want....unless they are bald faced liars setting themselves up for millions of lawsuits(I doubt that)...They will tell you all you need to know


also tebow and mcghaee break tackles and have yds after contact like no bodys buisness, thats not the Ol helping the 4.8 thats straight up RB, and Qb owning tacklers......

Mchaee is 3rd in the leauge in yds after contact, thats usually indicative of a OL not doing there job especially when his runs over 20 are so few.....


and as i stated the inconsistency is the reslt for the bad grade...if the yhave a bad game where a player grades a -10.4, and follows that the next 2 games with a +1.3 guess what the diff is still -9.1......thats the problem i think right now.....they arent consistently bad, but when the yare bad its bad and the grades and results suffer as a result.....also penalties knock your grade down as it should....and that has also hurt there overall grade, fair or not...

Elevation inc
01-13-2012, 09:09 AM
It's important to remember that through the first four games, the Broncos were in the mid 20's in rushing and both the media and much of BF were slamming the O-line for their inability to run or pass block. Then, Tebow takes over and the thread of Tebow running completely changed the dynamic of the run game, combined with a change to more zone blocking a couple games later.

Now, I think the O-line has also greatly improved during the course of the year, and it isn't just the threat of Tebow running, but that clearly is the major factor in Broncos going from mid 20's in rushing to first in about 4 1/2 games.


Thats a factor as well, the first 4 games not a single OL player had a positive grade....so was it the RB, the Qb or the OL... i say all of the above as well, who knows but its a seasons worth of work.....it is what it is....people need to stop getting so pissy about it....its like the tebow fan bois getting pissy by people that dont believe down to there bones aka les shapiro or something hahaha....it is what it is.....17 games worth.....the second half of the seaosn with tebow is clearly better but the struggles are still there from some players some weeks, it is what it is....

Elevation inc
01-13-2012, 09:10 AM
And we are one of the top 8 teams. Eff the rankings. Eff the Steelers, and eff the Pats.

you make me happy beef....


one day Im gonna pick you up in a f-16...lol :beer:

Elevation inc
01-13-2012, 09:16 AM
there's a lot of middle ground between one of the worst OLs in the league and "elite". Seems silly to say that McGahee broke so many tackles that his team lead the league in rushing.

It just doesn't make sense. "...our scheme and misdirection..." guess what, it takes OL doing their job to make schemes and misdirection work.

Now I'm not saying I think our OL is the best in the league, but easily middle of the pack at worst. I know you're paying good money to access those stats, but imo you're being ripped off. You'd be better off just watching the games yourself and actually seeing what the OL is doing. To each their own though.


I have every game on replay every week I have sunday ticket and DVR denver's games, when i was in afghanistan i used the intenret to set my DVR at home(gotta love technology), I watch it then compare its quite simple really.....im not getting ripped off in fact the joy of watching you all get so pissy about our hallowed OL is worth the cash;)....playing with ya Bc.....its okay for fans to trash WR's, its okay for Fans to trash RB's or our qb's, or even the defense but trash the OL and oh my god......lol

Elevation inc
01-13-2012, 09:45 AM
its funny to....i have looked at every position and every teams stats and the stats back-up those players performances good and bad, so its not like the site is just wrong about the broncos when they are so right about so many other players and teams.....lol this isnt just unvalidated hate against the broncos....hahaha