Backwards passes, laterals

[horsepig]

I am still pissed about the non-call on Ben's backward pass, incomplete as it was, still a live ball. If I ever played or coached football (I've never reffed) that was a live ball until the Broncos recoverd AND the refs blew the whistle.


There was a similar play in the Texans game where they gave possession to the Bengals, but did not allow the TD they ran for after the recovery.

A pass thrown behind the QB is no different from a lateral, a handoff, or just plain a loose ball, and consequently a live ball. The rules have changed wherein the ref's whistle blows the play dead. Now the exchange of possesion still happens, concurrent action does stop.

Denver's ball, period. Why did Fox drop his challenge?

[BroncoWave]

He dropped it because the ref told him had he won, Denver still wouldn't have gotten the ball since the whistle blew. It would have just been a one yard loss. Nothing to gain by challenging. I don't really understand that though because I thought the Hochuli rule changed that. Guess not.

[Northman]

I am still pissed about the non-call on Ben's backward pass, incomplete as it was, still a live ball. If I ever played or coached football (I've never reffed) that was a live ball until the Broncos recoverd AND the refs blew the whistle.


There was a similar play in the Texans game where they gave possession to the Bengals, but did not allow the TD they ran for after the recovery.

A pass thrown behind the QB is no different from a lateral, a handoff, or just plain a loose ball, and consequently a live ball. The rules have changed wherein the ref's whistle blows the play dead. Now the exchange of possesion still happens, concurrent action does stop.

Denver's ball, period. Why did Fox drop his challenge?

Because the ref informed him he would lose because of the whistle. I know what play your talking about from the Texan game but im not sure if the circumstances are exactly the same. Either way, that rule needs to be amended. Like i said in the gameday thread, the idea behind instant replay is too get the call right. Just because the ref blew the whistle early should not have overruled the play.

[NightTrainLayne]

I am still pissed about the non-call on Ben's backward pass, incomplete as it was, still a live ball. If I ever played or coached football (I've never reffed) that was a live ball until the Broncos recoverd AND the refs blew the whistle.


There was a similar play in the Texans game where they gave possession to the Bengals, but did not allow the TD they ran for after the recovery.

A pass thrown behind the QB is no different from a lateral, a handoff, or just plain a loose ball, and consequently a live ball. The rules have changed wherein the ref's whistle blows the play dead. Now the exchange of possesion still happens, concurrent action does stop.

Denver's ball, period. Why did Fox drop his challenge?

Fox dropped the challenge because the ref was not going to award us the ball.

I can't figure out why not, but that's why we didn't pursue the challenge further. It was going to be Steeler ball marked back a few yards back.

[BroncoWave]

Am I wrong or was the Hochuli rule not supposed to change this? What am I missing?

[ATLbroNCO]

That play was AT LEAST a 7 point swing (most likely a 10 to 14 point one). It is ultimately frustrating that they could not have looked at the play, and from my understanding, given the ball at the spot of the recovery to the Broncos. If this game had been lost, the amount of spotlight on this call would have been multiplied ten-fold. They better (the rules committee) look into this, because this certainly could have costed us the game.

[NightTrainLayne]

Am I wrong or was the Hochuli rule not supposed to change this? What am I missing?

Apparently, the Hochuli rule specifically exempts a lateral play. Per Mike Pereira (sp?).

[wayninja]

Am I wrong or was the Hochuli rule not supposed to change this? What am I missing?

Yeah, for some reason they decided that laterals were specifically excluded (as was said). Here's an explanation (sort of):

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/01/08/pereira-explains-why-denver-couldnt-have-gotten-possession-of-backward-pass-via-replay/related/

[cmc0605]

This is the same type of thing that Denver lucked out with when Jay Cutler fumbled against the Chargers (except that wasn't a playoff game). Once the whistle is blown, the play is dead; so, no matter what happens after the whistle they cannot "count." In this case, the whistle was blown before it was obvious that a Denver player recovered the ball.

If they challenged it they could have "won," but the only result would have been a 2 yard loss or whatever it was, instead of being incomplete. But they could not have given Denver the ball since the whistle blew. Actually, if Denver was confident enough that it was in fact a backwards pass, they probably should have challenged it and got that -2 yard loss, because they won the previous challenge so they would have been granted another one.

[OrangeHoof]

The rule, as I understand it, is that if it is clear that one team recovered the ball at a point where the whistle had no effect, the change of possession would be allowable.

The original ruling was an incomplete pass and the whistle blew on the presumption this was a dropped pass. They then concluded that the Steelers could have recovered the ball but didn't try because they heard the whistle and stopped.

IMO, it's still the wrong call because Dumerville was the only one around the ball although it took a few seconds for him to react. If it were a bang-bang drop/recovery, the Broncos may have stood a better chance of winning the argument but once the ref decided the whistle blew before Dumerville fell on the ball, there wasn't anything else to challenge.

I think if Winter had gone under the hood and seen the play, he might have changed his mind but it was too big a risk for Fox to take after Winter explained his view of the whistle blowing. If Fox continued with the challenge, he might have gained 2-3 yards but it would have been hard to expect Winter to reverse his call.

[jhildebrand]

The refs botched that big time (sorry Spikerman). They know to swallow their whistle on a lateral or backwards pass.

[Clipworthy]

Champ influenced the whistle blowing by celebrating it right after without going after the ball.... when Champ says it's over, it's over damn it!

[tomjonesrocks]

Just complete horseshit IMO and I doubt it would have played out the same if it had been a Broncos "lateral" as I am SURE they'd have given the ball to the Steelers in the opposite scenario.

Just think refs give benefit of the doubt to year-in-and-year-out playoff contenders. They also ignored like 5 different facemasks and holding all game long on the Steelers.

It is VERY fortunate that that call (and the officiating in general) did not cost the Broncos the game.

[AlWilsonizKING]

This call and the (weekly) no call on the facemask during our last drive really could have cost us the game. The facemask would have given us an automatic first down, instead we had to punt to the Steelers. Just glad we overcame the calls/no calls.

Nice to see Vic and Gary call out the refs and question the no calls!!!!:salute:


PEACE!!!

[tomjonesrocks]

Slightly off-topic, but on ESPN Sportscenter "Special" with the famed Merrill Hodge, before they went on to break down the coming rout of the Broncos at the hands of the Pats, they fell all over themselves to talk about what an incredibly bright future the Steelers have because despite all of their "devastating injuries" they still gave Denver all they could handle.

They kind of forgot to mention the huge Vegas line in favor of the Steelers today, nor much about the Broncos earning the win or about the jaw-dropping preference the refs gave to the Steelers the entire game which kept the game so close. Without the bogus calls/noncalls the Broncos probably win by 2-3 TDs.

I generally don't bitch about officiating but this was a BAD game; they very nearly decided the outcome of this one.

[Joel]

This is the same type of thing that Denver lucked out with when Jay Cutler fumbled against the Chargers (except that wasn't a playoff game). Once the whistle is blown, the play is dead; so, no matter what happens after the whistle they cannot "count." In this case, the whistle was blown before it was obvious that a Denver player recovered the ball.

If they challenged it they could have "won," but the only result would have been a 2 yard loss or whatever it was, instead of being incomplete. But they could not have given Denver the ball since the whistle blew. Actually, if Denver was confident enough that it was in fact a backwards pass, they probably should have challenged it and got that -2 yard loss, because they won the previous challenge so they would have been granted another one.
Yes, but if they wait for another equally certain (but far more significant) challenge that would still be true. They really had nothing to gain with a challenge except a yard or two before lining up to defend against the next play--but if they lose, they're out of challenges for the game (the Texans game also provides a good example of why THAT'S a bad idea.)

[horsepig]

The rule, as I understand it, is that if it is clear that one team recovered the ball at a point where the whistle had no effect, the change of possession would be allowable.

The original ruling was an incomplete pass and the whistle blew on the presumption this was a dropped pass. They then concluded that the Steelers could have recovered the ball but didn't try because they heard the whistle and stopped.

IMO, it's still the wrong call because Dumerville was the only one around the ball although it took a few seconds for him to react. If it were a bang-bang drop/recovery, the Broncos may have stood a better chance of winning the argument but once the ref decided the whistle blew before Dumerville fell on the ball, there wasn't anything else to challenge.

I think if Winter had gone under the hood and seen the play, he might have changed his mind but it was too big a risk for Fox to take after Winter explained his view of the whistle blowing. If Fox continued with the challenge, he might have gained 2-3 yards but it would have been hard to expect Winter to reverse his call.

I do not care how many times you look at it, Big Ben threw it behind him. That is either a lteral, a backwards pass, or a ******* fumble. Whistle blows, not before Ben tosses it behind him, but later, after Denver recovered the loose ball.l

[Slick]

The whistle blew before we recovered it. The officals have been told if there is a doubt, dont blow the whistle until the play plays itself out.

Someone blew the whistle too soon so we couldnt challenge possession. Really bad decision by the whistle blower. Had we lost i'd really be upset about it.

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[Chef Zambini]

Am I wrong or was the Hochuli rule not supposed to change this? What am I missing?you arte correct, the refs are retarded! sometimes they know the rules as well as the announcers !
this group of refs stunck up the joint! the way the crew cheif butchered the explanation of the OT rules tells us all we need to know about this clown crtew! Just like the steelers, I hope this crew is retired for the play-offs !