Backfield complete!?

[rcsodak]

Fargas got released from the faiders!

Pick him up....he's already familiar with ZBS....and is a proven runner.

Along with Torrain and Hillis, the backfield would be complete and they wouldn't have to waste a pick on another one this year. An added plus would be them being afforded the opportunity to dump Tater!

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Feel free to be overwhelmed by my indifference if we sign him.

[BeefStew25]

Fargas ran tough last year. I would not be sad about it. Smilin, what is his current 40 time, homo?

[Northman]

Fargas is weak. Just say no.

[LRtagger]

We could do worse :cough:travishenry:cough:

[EMB6903]

I wouldnt mind it, We could bring him in cheap, and I would love seeing him run all over Oakland twice a year.

[Hobe]

Another smooth move by ol' greasy Al. McFadden will probably go down with a knee in the first game.

PS - I tried to go to the faiders official site to check McFadden's name and got a 404 error. How appropriate!:D

[Den21vsBal19]

We could do worse :cough:travishenry:cough:
Nasty cough there, gotta give up the smoke, man ;)

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Fargas ran tough last year. I would not be sad about it. Smilin, what is his current 40 time, homo?


He's already been drafted. I have no clue, hooker.

[Dreadnought]

Screw Fargas - he's a bum. I'll take Tatum Bell any day over him - which is not to say I'm ready to see Tatum indiucted into Canton anytime soon.

[WARHORSE]

Fargas must be feelin quite free right now.

Not to mention the supersized chip on his shoulder.

Let him come in and trash some silver and black if the price is right.


Right now, hes a better runner than every back we have.......and he gets the blitz.

[Buff]

Screw Fargas - he's a bum. I'll take Tatum Bell any day over him - which is not to say I'm ready to see Tatum indiucted into Canton anytime soon.

I'll take a healthy Fargas over a healthy Tatum any day. But I'd rather both of them play for someone else.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Pair that Fargas guy with Quentin Griffin and we might have a running game teams will fear for decades.

[jrelway]

i'd rather bring back pittman than sign fargas.

[rcsodak]

Screw Fargas - he's a bum. I'll take Tatum Bell any day over him - which is not to say I'm ready to see Tatum indiucted into Canton anytime soon.

Whoever you are, you give us back Dread!!!!!! :eek:

C'mon maaaaaaaaan.....tater? Mr fumble? Mr go down at first contact? Mr kicked to the curb by the 0-FER LIONS???????




Where have all my superheroes gone......????? :tsk:

[Traveler]

FB Justin Griffin was released. Haven't seen anything on Fargas.

[TXBRONC]

Fargas must be feelin quite free right now.

Not to mention the supersized chip on his shoulder.

Let him come in and trash some silver and black if the price is right.


Right now, hes a better runner than every back we have.......and he gets the blitz.

I don't think he's better than Hillis. :D

[EMB6903]

Jason Jones, of the Sacramento Bee, reports the Oakland Raiders could release RB Justin Fargas in the offseason if they are happy with the duo of RB Darren McFadden and RB Michael Bush in the team's backfield. That may not be an option, however, with McFadden unable to stay healthy last season. Then again, according to Jones, the Raiders are fond of RB Louis Rankin, which could play a role in Fargas' fate.

so I guess he hasnt been released yet.... but its looking like it with Michael Bush and Darren Mcfadden


I don't think he's better than Hillis. :D

I agree... Hillis doesnt have the experience but in my opinion from watching this kid there is no weakness to him.... Hillis reminds me of Marion Barber A LOT... a tough runner who is an amazing reciever out of the back field..... extremely versatile

[spikerman]

How cool would it be to see his old man dress up like "Huggie Bear" again and prowl the sidelines during games?

[rcsodak]

FB Justin Griffin was released. Haven't seen anything on Fargas.

CRAP!

Just went and checked news and saw that. I must've heard "justin" and assumed they said fargas.

Sorry, guys.

But who knows....maybe ol' delirious Al MEANT to cut Fargas! :laugh:

[rcsodak]

How cool would it be to see his old man dress up like "Huggie Bear" again and prowl the sidelines during games?

He still jivin'?

[Superchop 7]

We have a ton of talent on the offensive roster........we need defense.

Guys like you screw up a wet dream.

[MOtorboat]

We have a ton of talent on the offensive roster........we need defense.

Guys like you screw up a wet dream.

I don't know who you're attacking with this dumb comment, but I'm sure that you're aware that the Broncos have a ton of cap space, and could use help at running back.

[broncohead]

Whoever you are, you give us back Dread!!!!!! :eek:

C'mon maaaaaaaaan.....tater? Mr fumble? Mr go down at first contact? Mr kicked to the curb by the 0-FER LIONS???????




Where have all my superheroes gone......????? :tsk:

Tatum actually ran pretty hard last year for us. Though he didn't break any tackles after contact he did lower his shoulder and gain a couple yards after contact. Tatum with 8-12 carries can be beneficial as a change of pace back hoping he'll break one. Other then that it's to much. Tatum fumbles once every 62 or so touches. Not that many imo. Just blown out of proportion.

[scott.475]

Tatum actually ran pretty hard last year for us. Though he didn't break any tackles after contact he did lower his shoulder and gain a couple yards after contact. Tatum with 8-12 carries can be beneficial as a change of pace back hoping he'll break one. Other then that it's to much. Tatum fumbles once every 62 or so touches. Not that many imo. Just blown out of proportion.


Yep, unfortunately for him he had a few very poorly timed fumbles, which pretty much doomed him. Had TD made the same fumbles it would not have been made into such a big deal.

[EMB6903]

We have a ton of talent on the offensive roster........we need defense.

Guys like you screw up a wet dream.

its guys like YOU who think this team is set with Cutler throwing the ball 50 times a game

[CoachChaz]

its guys like YOU who think this team is set with Cutler throwing the ball 50 times a game

It's not a lack of a running game that required lofty passing attempts...it's consistently playing from behind

[Medford Bronco]

its guys like YOU who think this team is set with Cutler throwing the ball 50 times a game

and with that type of offense will lead to either (i) Cutler eventually getting killed or (ii) many interceptions as too many throws are not good in the long run.

Run the football and be a controlled team. balance is what wins usually in this league IMHO.

I hate this old AFL football that leads to shootouts. That is not the way to win. The Cardinals played better when they were under more control in the playoffs and actually had a form of a running game and defense to compliment Warner, Fitz, Boldin et all.

[Dreadnought]

Whoever you are, you give us back Dread!!!!!! :eek:

C'mon maaaaaaaaan.....tater? Mr fumble? Mr go down at first contact? Mr kicked to the curb by the 0-FER LIONS???????




Where have all my superheroes gone......????? :tsk:

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

What can I say? I like Tatum Bell, and always did. Having Matt Millen claim you can't play is no kind of serious career ender IMO, as Millen had no acumen at all. The fumble-itis of Bell has been drastically overstated, and the guy has great quickness and gets through a hole decisively. I'll agree that he is best as an 8-12 carry a game guy, but he can be a solid ball player.

With all the defensive stiffs we unloaded we need to fill a whole lot of gaps. If we have a guy like Tatum, who played well last year and had real live flashes of brilliance in 2005 I say we keep him. Thats one less guy we have to find for '09

[topscribe]

Screw Fargas - he's a bum. I'll take Tatum Bell any day over him - which is not to say I'm ready to see Tatum indiucted into Canton anytime soon.

No, but as well as Tater did in his time last year, and as cheap as the Broncos
can get him, he is more than worth giving another try, IMO.

Regarding Fargas, I agree: it's time to stop recycling bums.

-----

[EMB6903]

It's not a lack of a running game that required lofty passing attempts...it's consistently playing from behind

you dont think having a solid and consistent run game would change that?

I think this team would have been a lot more effective in the redzone last year if they had a threat as a running back, which would lead to us NOT playing from behind half of the time, but regardless Cutler still threw a ton when Denver was leading most of the game, all these games posted Denver was leading Majority of the game yet he still managed to throw it 30+ times

San Diego week 2= 50 pass attempts
New Orleans week 3=34 attempts
Tampa Bay week 5= 34 attempts
New York Jets week 13= 43 attemps
Kansas City week 14= 40 attempts
Buffalo week 16= 45 attempts

16 games this year only twice did Cutler throw less then 30 attempts a game

[topscribe]

you dont think having a solid and consistent run game would change that?

I think this team would have been a lot more effective in the redzone last year if they had a threat as a running back, which would lead to us NOT playing from behind half of the time, but regardless Cutler still threw a ton when Denver was leading most of the game, all these games posted Denver was leading Majority of the game yet he still managed to throw it 30+ times

San Diego week 2= 50 pass attempts
New Orleans week 3=34 attempts
Tampa Bay week 5= 34 attempts
New York Jets week 13= 43 attemps
Kansas City week 14= 40 attempts
Buffalo week 16= 45 attempts

16 games this year only twice did Cutler throw less then 30 attempts a game

What would lead to the Broncos not playing from behind would be a solid defense.

The running game was fine. The only problem was injuries. When a team goes
through seven RBs because of injury, there is not much a team can do, but
that certainly does not reflect on the quality of personnel.

Being #3 in the league in YPC does reflect on personnel, though, and that is
where the Broncos ranked. So the problem was most definitely not a
"consistent" running game.

-----

[EMB6903]

What would lead to the Broncos not playing from behind would be a solid defense.

The running game was fine. The only problem was injuries. When a team goes
through seven RBs because of injury, there is not much a team can do, but
that certainly does not reflect on the quality of personnel.

Being #3 in the league in YPC does reflect on personnel, though, and that is
where the Broncos ranked. So the problem was most definitely not a
"consistent" running game.

-----


just looked at those YPC stats, and Chiefs were also tied for 3rd in YPC... a little misleading

how many times did a player run over 100+ yards this year??? 3 times?


the only RB I wouldnt worry about as the starter is Hillis, other then that Denver has a bunch of scrubs. I hope Mcdaniels doesnt down play the running back situation like Shanny did in recent years.

[topscribe]

how many times did a player run over 100+ yards this year??? 3 times?


the only RB I wouldnt worry about as the starter is Hillis, other then that Denver has a bunch of scrubs. I hope Mcdaniels doesnt down play the running back situation like Shanny did in recent years.

I wouldn't call Pittman a scrub. He did a good job. Selvin had a 5.0 YPC (same
as Hillis), and Tater had an astounding 5.7.

Guess we just have different definitions of "scrub." :coffee:

-----

[EMB6903]

I wouldn't call Pittman a scrub. He did a good job. Selvin had a 5.0 YPC (same
as Hillis), and Tater had an astounding 5.7.

Guess we just have different definitions of "scrub." :coffee:

-----

Pittman is going to be 34 heading into next year.... and lets be real Tatum nor Young are starters in this league

[topscribe]

Pittman is going to be 34 heading into next year.... and lets be real Tatum nor Young are starters in this league

Who says so? You? I think Tater and Selvin will have the say in that.

They are both explosive, and Hillis is a beast. And Pittman's age will not keep
him from rotating in for short yardage and an occasional reception.

But if the Broncos don't make dramatic improvements in their defense, it won't
matter if they have TD and LT in their primes back there at the same time.
They will still be bottom-feeders. :sad:

-----

[EMB6903]

Who says so? You? I think Tater and Selvin will have the say in that.

They are both explosive, and Hillis is a beast. And Pittman's age will not keep
him from rotating in for short yardage and an occasional reception.

But if the Broncos don't make dramatic improvements in their defense, it won't
matter if they have TD and LT in their primes back there at the same time.
They will still be bottom-feeders. :sad:

-----

Im not saying RB is the 1st priority this team needs, of course Denvers #1 priority is to bring in SOLID players on the defensive side of the ball, but to down play the running back situation is crazy... no team thinks Selvin Young or Tatum Bell are threats, no team is gonna slide an extra man in the box to stop this run game... I think if we actually went out and got a rb threat defenses will have to respect Jay's turnovers would decrease and they would be able to stretch the field a lot more

[underrated29]

*cough* Torian *cough*


Seriously guys, you have to think about this for a minute. Yes, i am a torain fan, but look at this from another view....

The coaches dumped half our rbs already. Yet they held on to ryan. Even though he is always injured, past and present, and only made it through 16 minutes of a game they still kept him over guys like:

Pope- who had a hgue game against the bills or someone before he got hurt, and they kept him over- whoever the hell else we let go. I cant even remember....

And according to PFW they new regime is still really high on torain also. So far everyone who has seen this guy play really really really likes him. And the new coaches who only have 1/2 of a quarter of film on him have decided to keep him, when there is tons of film on all our other rbs....


Seems like tooo many coincidences to me to keep the guy around if he wasnt any good.

He might not make it back 100% this next year, he might, but they obviously want to see what he has this year and maybe next.

i think it will be like:-in no order

hillis
torain
young
bell
FA/draftee/UFDA

[topscribe]

Im not saying RB is the 1st priority this team needs, of course Denvers #1 priority is to bring in SOLID players on the defensive side of the ball, but to down play the running back situation is crazy... no team thinks Selvin Young or Tatum Bell are threats, no team is gonna slide an extra man in the box to stop this run game... I think if we actually went out and got a rb threat defenses will have to respect Jay's turnovers would decrease and they would be able to stretch the field a lot more

Selvin has already ripped off more than one 50-yard sprint, and Tater has
4.4 speed. And, coupled with their YPCs, they aren't threats? If they keep
that up, you bet the other safeties will take notice. And Hillis most definitely
has the defense's attention. You can bet on that.

And U29 is absolutely right: Torain is coming up on the outside, and he is
favored among the players as the Broncos' best at the position.

Sorry, but I just believe we need to discover that our grass is already green . . .

-----

[Lonestar]

*cough* Torian *cough*


Seriously guys, you have to think about this for a minute. Yes, i am a torain fan, but look at this from another view....

The coaches dumped half our rbs already. Yet they held on to ryan. Even though he is always injured, past and present, and only made it through 16 minutes of a game they still kept him over guys like:

Pope- who had a hgue game against the bills or someone before he got hurt, and they kept him over- whoever the hell else we let go. I cant even remember....

And according to PFW they new regime is still really high on torain also. So far everyone who has seen this guy play really really really likes him. And the new coaches who only have 1/2 of a quarter of film on him have decided to keep him, when there is tons of film on all our other rbs....


Seems like tooo many coincidences to me to keep the guy around if he wasnt any good.

He might not make it back 100% this next year, he might, but they obviously want to see what he has this year and maybe next.

i think it will be like:-in no order

hillis
torain
young
bell
FA/draftee/UFDA

right now the ones on contract Hillis torain and young are almost freebies money wise the only reason they would be let go is roster space or they are injured unable to perform PUP..

torain and Hillis fit the NE RB mold more than 210 and can run between eh tackles.. We know Hillis can do it all except break a 80 yarder but then very few can..

I see a new newbie as a UFA or even perhaps a UDFA unless there happens to be a sleeper Rb like M. Tuner that never got taken out of the garage, most FA RB's have to many miles on them.. I suspect Pittman will be back as a cheap back up insurance policy..

[EMB6903]

Selvin has already ripped off more than one 50-yard sprint, and Tater has
4.4 speed. And, coupled with their YPCs, they aren't threats? If they keep
that up, you bet the other safeties will take notice. And Hillis most definitely
has the defense's attention. You can bet on that.

And U29 is absolutely right: Torain is coming up on the outside, and he is
favored among the players as the Broncos' best at the position.

Sorry, but I just believe we need to discover that our grass is already green . . .

-----


thats just the thing though, the grass isnt already green, Young and Bell have had a chance to prove themselves before.. they have shown they are nothing more then average RB's at best.... breaking off a couple long runs in a zone blocking scheme? big deal like we havent seen that before.

in all reality selvin Young is an undrafted player for a reason, plus look at his previous injuries... he cant stay healthy

and Tatum FUMBELL has a couple good runs in his short stint and people want him to compete for the starting job next year?

Like I said earlier the only player I trust to start at RB on this team is Hillis... if we braught in another TALENTED rb to compliment his running style? this offense is set for the next 5 years

[topscribe]

thats just the thing though, the grass isnt already green, Young and Bell have had a chance to prove themselves before.. they have shown they are nothing more then average RB's at best.... breaking off a couple long runs in a zone blocking scheme? big deal like we havent seen that before.

in all reality selvin Young is an undrafted player for a reason, plus look at his previous injuries... he cant stay healthy

and Tatum FUMBELL has a couple good runs in his short stint and people want him to compete for the starting job next year?

Like I said earlier the only player I trust to start at RB on this team is Hillis... if we braught in another TALENTED rb to compliment his running style? this offense is set for the next 5 years

Couple good runs? :confused: I guess you didn't see the last six games, then?
It took Tater a couple games to get back into football shape, but when he
did he ended up with 249 yds on 44 carries for a 5.7 average.

And this isn't the first time a RB has been criticized for ripping off long runs.
I have a hard time comprehending that. Every RB has long runs figured into
his average. If LT's long runs had been taken out of his total, would that have
affected his YPC? That's silly. That's like giving a QB slack on INTs because
the WR fell down or taking away his TDs because the receiver was wide open,
or taking away a long punt because the ball rolled a ways. It all figures in.

So I'm not into carving up a RB's overall performance. That fact is, Tater had
a 5.7 YPC over six games, Selvin had a 5.0 over eight games, and Hillis had a
5.0 over 10 games (although he didn't play RB in all of them, of course). That
is the bottom line. Good production . . . very good. That's green enough for
me, especially considering that Hillis' injury does not come from being fragile,
but was off landing awkwardly while making a tremendous reception.

BTW, Tater had no . . . that is, zero . . . fumbles.

Nope. Denver had the offense to go as well as 16-0 of it had just a top 15
defense. Therefore, forget RB. Get defenders. Nothing but, until that defense
isn't such and offensive defense.

IMHO.

-----

[topscribe]

right now the ones on contract Hillis torain and young are almost freebies money wise the only reason they would be let go is roster space or they are injured unable to perform PUP..

torain and Hillis fit the NE RB mold more than 210 and can run between eh tackles.. We know Hillis can do it all except break a 80 yarder but then very few can..

I see a new newbie as a UFA or even perhaps a UDFA unless there happens to be a sleeper Rb like M. Tuner that never got taken out of the garage, most FA RB's have to many miles on them.. I suspect Pittman will be back as a cheap back up insurance policy..

I don't understand this desire to emulate NE. This isn't NE. This is Denver. All
I care about is if they fit the Denver mold, which has yet to be molded. When
you cover someone else's singing, you don't try to copy them, else you will
fail. You try to do as well within the parameters of your own talents and
abilities. So I'm concerned as to how they players will do in Denver, according
to Denver's style of play.

-----

[TXBRONC]

thats just the thing though, the grass isnt already green, Young and Bell have had a chance to prove themselves before.. they have shown they are nothing more then average RB's at best.... breaking off a couple long runs in a zone blocking scheme? big deal like we havent seen that before.

in all reality selvin Young is an undrafted player for a reason, plus look at his previous injuries... he cant stay healthy

and Tatum FUMBELL has a couple good runs in his short stint and people want him to compete for the starting job next year ?

Like I said earlier the only player I trust to start at RB on this team is Hillis... if we braught in another TALENTED rb to compliment his running style? this offense is set for the next 5 years

No I think that it'ss people see him being a change of pace running back. If he goes I wont lose sleep over it and if he stays I wont be bitching about it in every thread possible. (I'm NOT saying that you will do something like that.)

[EMB6903]

Couple good runs? :confused: I guess you didn't see the last six games, then?
It took Tater a couple games to get back into football shape, but when he
did he ended up with 249 yds on 44 carries for a 5.7 average.

And this isn't the first time a RB has been criticized for ripping off long runs.
I have a hard time comprehending that. Every RB has long runs figured into
his average. If LT's long runs had been taken out of his total, would that have
affected his YPC? That's silly. That's like giving a QB slack on INTs because
the WR fell down or taking away his TDs because the receiver was wide open,
or taking away a long punt because the ball rolled a ways. It all figures in.

So I'm not into carving up a RB's overall performance. That fact is, Tater had
a 5.7 YPC over six games, Selvin had a 5.0 over eight games, and Hillis had a
5.0 over 10 games (although he didn't play RB in all of them, of course). That
is the bottom line. Good production . . . very good. That's green enough for
me, especially considering that Hillis' injury does not come from being fragile,
but was off landing awkwardly while making a tremendous reception.

BTW, Tater had no . . . that is, zero . . . fumbles.

Nope. Denver had the offense to go as well as 16-0 of it had just a top 15
defense. Therefore, forget RB. Get defenders. Nothing but, until that defense
isn't such and offensive defense.

IMHO.

-----

why do you keep bringing up yards per carry? of course they are going to be high

Young= 61 carries
Hillis= 68 carries
Bell= 44 carries

it better be above 5pc with that limited number of carries, but if thats the case Fred Jackson, Ladell Betts, JJ arrington, Jerome Harrison, Kevin Faulk, Leon Washington, Brandon Jackson, Aaron Stecker, and Jacob Hester are all capable of starting in this league.... being that they averaged all over 5 yards per carry ON LIMITED CARRIES

[CPS22]

I wouldn't like fargus I think that our backfield is fine. We should release everybody except Torain Hillis And Hall Torain B Our Starting Back Share Carrys With Hillis And then Hall B Our Change Of Pace Back. Then Spensar Larson B Our FB.

[underrated29]

cp- my brother, you got to use some punctuation marks man.



As for tatum bell. EMB let me first off state that i have never liked bell, never. I still dont like him or the way he runs.....

However, this last year he ran harder and with more heart than i have ever seen him do. Based on that, and his past performances here i would like to see him stick around and once again resume his role of 5-10 carries for us...

If he runs like he did at the end of the year, he will be deadly. Sometimes people need to lose it all to come back stronger. i think bell did that. He was a starter here, lost his job, sold cell phones, got 1 last chance and he NAILED THE HELL OUT OF IT.



I think he is going to keep doing that, so which i again say 5-10 carries for him maximum, but they will be very very good ones at that.

If he starts to be fumbell or fall down when the wind blows, then hes outta here. But i have a feeling he might just be back with a vengence. Not starting material, not more than 10 reps, but tatum is a king amongst ants.



and you list of guys, like arrington, betts, washington, noorwood and whoever else, a lot of those guys could be starters and are/were at one point in time.

[topscribe]

why do you keep bringing up yards per carry? of course they are going to be high

Young= 61 carries
Hillis= 68 carries
Bell= 44 carries

it better be above 5pc with that limited number of carries, but if thats the case Fred Jackson, Ladell Betts, JJ arrington, Jerome Harrison, Kevin Faulk, Leon Washington, Brandon Jackson, Aaron Stecker, and Jacob Hester are all capable of starting in this league.... being that they averaged all over 5 yards per carry ON LIMITED CARRIES

Why is the YPC going to be high, "of course"? All that indicates to me is that
there were good RBs behind a good line. What more can one ask? :noidea:

If the limited carries are the difference, then why is it Andre Hall averaged
only 4.1 on 35 carries? How about Pittman with 4.2 on 76 carries? They ran
behind the same O-line for the same team, did they not?

Once again, we are talking about one of the top offenses, and the worst
defense, in the league. Now, which one gets the attention? I don't give the
offense a sniff until I have done a reasonable job in shoring up the defense.

-----

[EMB6903]

cp- my brother, you got to use some punctuation marks man.



As for tatum bell. EMB let me first off state that i have never liked bell, never. I still dont like him or the way he runs.....

However, this last year he ran harder and with more heart than i have ever seen him do. Based on that, and his past performances here i would like to see him stick around and once again resume his role of 5-10 carries for us...

If he runs like he did at the end of the year, he will be deadly. Sometimes people need to lose it all to come back stronger. i think bell did that. He was a starter here, lost his job, sold cell phones, got 1 last chance and he NAILED THE HELL OUT OF IT.



I think he is going to keep doing that, so which i again say 5-10 carries for him maximum, but they will be very very good ones at that.

If he starts to be fumbell or fall down when the wind blows, then hes outta here. But i have a feeling he might just be back with a vengence. Not starting material, not more than 10 reps, but tatum is a king amongst ants.



and you list of guys, like arrington, betts, washington, noorwood and whoever else, a lot of those guys could be starters and are/were at one point in time.


which ones were starters at one point?

maybe Arrington when Cards had absolutely no other option

but you make some good points on Bell, and yes I do agree he ran hard....but I remember him running hard back in the day when he was in Denver in the months of September and October... but as the season went along he became less and less productive you could tell dude was warn out.

thats why Im not going to evalute him stricly on last year.... Bell is sharpe his first 100 or so carries but after that the production drops BIG TIME

[turftoad]

The main reason our YPC were so high is that defenses knew we were going to pass ALL THE TIME.
No, 8 men in the box etc...

Teams were forced to stop our passing game, they didn't have to worry about our running game because we were behind nad had to pass the ball all the time.

[EMB6903]

Why is the YPC going to be high, "of course"? All that indicates to me is that
there were good RBs behind a good line. What more can one ask? :noidea:

If the limited carries are the difference, then why is it Andre Hall averaged
only 4.1 on 35 carries? How about Pittman with 4.2 on 76 carries? They ran
behind the same O-line for the same team, did they not?

Once again, we are talking about one of the top offenses, and the worst
defense, in the league. Now, which one gets the attention? I don't give the
offense a sniff until I have done a reasonable job in shoring up the defense.

-----

because Pittman was brought in on short yardage and goalline situations, he didnt get a chance to break off long yard gains, and with Hall? dudes a scrub just like Tatum Bell and Selvin Young is... System RB's nothing more

but what did Xanders and Mcdaniels say over and over in every interview they have done when asked about the defense "we are trying to make this team better overall, from offense to special teams, to Defense"

and one of the top offenses? MAYBE when we are talking total yards but because of the turnovers and inability to score in the redzone.... I wouldnt rank us top 5, Denver needs to be more balanced to get to that point

[EMB6903]

The main reason our TPC were so high is that defenses knew we were going to pass ALL THE TIME.
No, 8 men in the box etc...

Teams were forced to stop our passing game, they didn't have to worry about our running game because we were behind nad had to pass the ball all the time.

exactly... Imagine if teams feared the run game as much as the passing game?

I think the main reason this team wasnt able to stretch the field is not because of Marshall, Royal, or Cutler... its the fact that teams DID NOT TAKE OUR RUN GAME SERIOUS, make teams put an extra man in the box and see how effective Marshall and Royal are at stretching the field....

[topscribe]

because Pittman was brought in on short yardage and goalline situations, he didnt get a chance to break off long yard gains, and with Hall? dudes a scrub just like Tatum Bell and Selvin Young is... System RB's nothing more

but what did Xanders and Mcdaniels say over and over in every interview they have done when asked about the defense "we are trying to make this team better overall, from offense to special teams, to Defense"

and one of the top offenses? MAYBE when we are talking total yards but because of the turnovers and inability to score in the redzone.... I wouldnt rank us top 5, Denver needs to be more balanced to get to that point

Looks like we have gone the full circle. If Tater and Selvin are scrubs like Hall,
then how come they have 5.7 and 5.0 YPCs, respectively, and Hall has 4.1?
See, the term "scrubs" is a vague, subjective term and doesn't really tell us
anything.

Regarding what X and McD said, that is what I expected them to say. It is
their way of not just fingering and running down one part of the team. But
you can bet they have their eyes principally on the defense when it comes to
personnel.

The red zone issue is one I have already covered, and it is not a personnel
issue. They have some of the best receivers in the game and pile drivers like
Hillis and Pittman, and Torain when he gets healthy, and speed demons in
Selvin and Tater, and Cutler (no explanation necessary there). The problem
is execution and focus, and play calling. But they have the backs.

-----

[topscribe]

The main reason our YPC were so high is that defenses knew we were going to pass ALL THE TIME.
No, 8 men in the box etc...

Teams were forced to stop our passing game, they didn't have to worry about our running game because we were behind nad had to pass the ball all the time.

That is oversimplifying and a marvelous job of speculation. The reason the
YPC was high is because the backs ran it and the O-line blocked for it. That is
the only thing that is for sure, and what is for sure is the only thing you can
be sure about.

-----

[turftoad]

That is oversimplifying and a marvelous job of speculation. The reason the
YPC was high is because the backs ran it and the O-line blocked for it. That is
the only thing that is for sure, and what is for sure is the only thing you can
be sure about.

-----

Ahh... agreed Top. But........... that is over simplifying the running game. :D

[topscribe]

Ahh... agreed Top. But........... that is over simplifying the running game. :D

Well then, my friend, tell me what else is involved in a successful running play?
The RB runs, and the blockers block. It really is that simple.

I know you have misdirection and anticipation factors, but none of that works
until the runner can run and the blockers can block. :whoknows:

-----

[turftoad]

Well then, my friend, tell me what else is involved in a successful running play?
The RB runs, and the blockers block. It really is that simple.

I know you have misdirection and anticipation factors, but none of that works
until the runner can run and the blockers can block. :whoknows:

-----

Agreed again Top. :D However, much depends on how a running game is defended and game planned against also.

[EMB6903]

Looks like we have gone the full circle. If Tater and Selvin are scrubs like Hall,
then how come they have 5.7 and 5.0 YPCs, respectively, and Hall has 4.1?
See, the term "scrubs" is a vague, subjective term and doesn't really tell us
anything.

Regarding what X and McD said, that is what I expected them to say. It is
their way of not just fingering and running down one part of the team. But
you can bet they have their eyes principally on the defense when it comes to
personnel.

The red zone issue is one I have already covered, and it is not a personnel
issue. They have some of the best receivers in the game and pile drivers like
Hillis and Pittman, and Torain when he gets healthy, and speed demons in
Selvin and Tater, and Cutler (no explanation necessary there). The problem
is execution and focus, and play calling. But they have the backs.

-----


not gonna argue about this with you anymore, you obviously are very high on Bell and Young and you keep repeating yourself bringing up meaningless YPC to defend it (yards per carry is a meaningful stat when judging a rb who has had 200 or so carries in a year NOT under 100, completely irrelivent) but since Tatum Bell and Selvin Young averaged 5+ yards a carry they are pro bowl caliber players that have speed they are potential pro bowlers....

Selvin Young= 2000+ yards in 2009.... MARK IT

but dont be surprised if your boys are cut in august.

[topscribe]

Agreed again Top. :D However, much depends on how a running game is defended and game planned against also.

Okay, but I think we're getting a bit distracted on the point I was making. The
fact is, if you run scrubs, you don't get 5+ YPC. You just don't. The RB does
have something to do with that. And Hillis, Selvin, and Tater all achieved that.

When you have a running game that is 3rd in the league in YPC and the #2
passing game, and near the last in the league in preventing it, I don't know
how you can give the offense even a sniff in the draft, generally. That's all I'm
getting at.

-----

[topscribe]

not gonna argue about this with you anymore, you obviously are very high on Bell and Young and you keep repeating yourself bringing up meaningless YPC to defend it (yards per carry is a meaningful stat when judging a rb who has had 200 or so carries in a year NOT under 100, completely irrelivent) but since Tatum Bell and Selvin Young averaged 5+ yards a carry they are pro bowl caliber players that have speed they are potential pro bowlers....

Selvin Young= 2000+ yards in 2009.... MARK IT

but dont be surprised if your boys are cut in august.

You totally missed the point. I'm not advocating for any player at all.

Maybe that is the problem: a failure to see the big picture . . .

-----

[Lonestar]

I don't understand this desire to emulate NE. This isn't NE. This is Denver. All
I care about is if they fit the Denver mold, which has yet to be molded. When
you cover someone else's singing, you don't try to copy them, else you will
fail. You try to do as well within the parameters of your own talents and
abilities. So I'm concerned as to how they players will do in Denver, according
to Denver's style of play.

-----

I guess you missed the memo that mikey is fired and we now have a NE protégé, Mc Kid who will no doubt take the NE mold and cast it here as frankly they were a hell of a lot more successfully the past ten years than mikey was..

[topscribe]

I guess you missed the memo that mikey is fired and we now have a NE protégé, Mc Kid who will no doubt take the NE mold and cast it here as frankly they were a hell of a lot more successfully the past ten years than mikey was..

Yes, I figured you would come back with that. So let's take a trip back into
the '70's and pretend I've been Roy Orbison's singing coach. I have been with
him for years. But I quit so I can pick up this promising kid who is a terrific
singer in his own right. Am I going to train him to sing just like Roy?

NE has its players. Denver has its players. They are absolutely, totally different
squads. Now, going by McDaniel's presser at the Combine (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=349&videoID=3212&type=broncosTV&year=&month=), they are not going
to just go to the 3-4, as NE had, but to a hybrid, sometimes 3-4, sometimes
4-3, depending a lot on Denver's opponent of the week.

McDaniels is coming from NE, but he is not necessarily bringing NE with him . . .

-----

[Lonestar]

Yes, I figured you would come back with that. So let's take a trip back into
the '70's and pretend I've been Roy Orbison's singing coach. I have been with
him for years. But I quit so I can pick up this promising kid who is a terrific
singer in his own right. Am I going to train him to sing just like Roy?

NE has its players. Denver has its players. They are absolutely, totally different
squads. Now, going by McDaniel's presser at the Combine (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=349&videoID=3212&type=broncosTV&year=&month=), they are not going
to just go to the 3-4, as NE had, but to a hybrid, sometimes 3-4, sometimes
4-3, depending a lot on Denver's opponent of the week.

McDaniels is coming from NE, but he is not necessarily bringing NE with him . . .

-----

But I was talking about the RB mold for NE heavier backs all 215 + most 225 or more with the exception of Faulk who is a bit lighter than that but at 5'9" still very compact and powerful type back..

All can catch the ball out of the back field and for the most part are not speed merchants but solid stout ball carriers .. I do not think he will depart much from that mold as it worked for all time he was there..

[topscribe]

But I was talking about the RB mold for NE heavier backs all 215 + most 225 or more with the exception of Faulk who is a bit lighter than that but at 5'9" still very compact and powerful type back..

All can catch the ball out of the back field and for the most part are not speed merchants but solid stout ball carriers .. I do not think he will depart much from that mold as it worked for all time he was there..

That's just it. Who's to say that McD is going to stay with the NE mold in RBs?
The offensive personnel of the respective teams are different, too.

Nonetheless, if that is the case, then Hillis, Torain, and Pittman are perfect,
aren't they? But I'm sure even McD may appreciate a change of pace that
Selvin and/or Tater might be able to give him.

We'll see . . .

-----

[TXBRONC]

That's just it. Who's to say that McD is going to stay with the NE mold in RBs?
The offensive personnel of the respective teams are different, too.

Nonetheless, if that is the case, then Hillis, Torain, and Pittman are perfect,
aren't they? But I'm sure even McD may appreciate a change of pace that
Selvin and/or Tater might be able to give him.

We'll see . . .

-----

I think you can throw Hall and Boyd in there as well.

[topscribe]

I think you can throw Hall and Boyd in there as well.

They can't all stay.

It's going to be a knock-down-drag-out at RB, isn't it?

-----

[Lonestar]

That's just it. Who's to say that McD is going to stay with the NE mold in RBs?
The offensive personnel of the respective teams are different, too.

Nonetheless, if that is the case, then Hillis, Torain, and Pittman are perfect,
aren't they? But I'm sure even McD may appreciate a change of pace that
Selvin and/or Tater might be able to give him.

We'll see . . .

-----


he dropped Aldridge without a look same with pope to small for his liking..

What I said in my first post
"right now the ones on contract Hillis torain and young are almost freebies money wise the only reason they would be let go is roster space or they are injured unable to perform PUP..

torain and Hillis fit the NE RB mold more than 210 pounds and can run between the tackles.. We know Hillis can do it all except break a 80 yarder but then very few can..

I see a new newbie as a UFA or even perhaps a UDFA unless there happens to be a sleeper Rb like M. Tuner that never got taken out of the garage, most FA RB's have to many miles on them.. I suspect Pittman will be back as a cheap back up insurance policy.."


Time will tell.. but I see 220+ type backs in our backfield from here on out.. 2 of them getting 750-900 yards per back with those carries and 2-3 more getting 200-300 more yards ..

and the main two getting alot of passes out of the backfield..

NE RB mold..

[topscribe]

he dropped Aldridge without a look same with pope to small for his liking..

What I said in my first post
"right now the ones on contract Hillis torain and young are almost freebies money wise the only reason they would be let go is roster space or they are injured unable to perform PUP..

torain and Hillis fit the NE RB mold more than 210 pounds and can run between the tackles.. We know Hillis can do it all except break a 80 yarder but then very few can..

I see a new newbie as a UFA or even perhaps a UDFA unless there happens to be a sleeper Rb like M. Tuner that never got taken out of the garage, most FA RB's have to many miles on them.. I suspect Pittman will be back as a cheap back up insurance policy.."


Time will tell.. but I see 220+ type backs in our backfield from here on out.. 2 of them getting 750-900 yards per back with those carries and 2-3 more getting 200-300 more yards ..

and the main two getting alot of passes out of the backfield..

NE RB mold..

I don't know . . . we watched Mike Anderson break an 80-yarder, remember?
And I think Hillis is at least as fast as MA was.

Nonetheless, as you implied, that rarely happens, anyway. Turner once said
that he's more concerned about the first 10 yards than he is the 40 because
a player seldom runs 40 yards, even a RB. It's the burst that Turner wants.

But Alridge is a flyweight: I don't think they ever saw him as a RB . . . maybe
an occasional H or Wildcat and otherwise a KR. That does not seem to offer
much in the room he will take up on the roster. Pope made a good showing,
but maybe they just saw him as MOTS (More Of The Same) in the RBs they
had. He is a 5-9, 212 lb. bowling ball, but Hillis and Pitt are military tanks.
And Torain just may be the quarterhorse they are looking for.

I don't know . . . it's all conjecture on our parts, isn't it?

-----

[TXBRONC]

They can't all stay.

It's going to be a knock-down-drag-out at RB, isn't it?

-----

Yes I can see it being a last man standing kind of thing.

By the way, when mentioned Hall and Boyd what I meant is that they have good enough to play.

[topscribe]

Yes I can see it being a last man standing kind of thing.

By the way, when mentioned Hall and Boyd what I meant is that they have good enough to play.

Well, Hall managed only a 4.1 YPC, and Boyd didn't play at all. Moreover, Hall
at 5-9, 205, is about the same size as Pope, and Boyd is about the same as
Selvin and Tater. Doesn't seem to bode well for either. But we'll see down the
stretch, of course . . .

-----

[rcsodak]

Yes, I figured you would come back with that. So let's take a trip back into
the '70's and pretend I've been Roy Orbison's singing coach. I have been with
him for years. But I quit so I can pick up this promising kid who is a terrific
singer in his own right. Am I going to train him to sing just like Roy?

NE has its players. Denver has its players. They are absolutely, totally different
squads. Now, going by McDaniel's presser at the Combine (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=349&videoID=3212&type=broncosTV&year=&month=), they are not going
to just go to the 3-4, as NE had, but to a hybrid, sometimes 3-4, sometimes
4-3, depending a lot on Denver's opponent of the week.

McDaniels is coming from NE, but he is not necessarily bringing NE with him . . .

-----
Well, top, to be fair, denver just doesn't have the personnel for a 3-4D this year...AT ALL!

They have NO nose tackle, no 5 techniques and little to no LB!

Pat Kirwin, who has more experience than everybody on the board, combined, says it best.

To paraphrase:
'I don't see Denver having the personnel this year to run the 3-4. Marcus Thomas is not big enough. They have no nose tackle. Moss isn't a 3-4 OLB OR a DE. All they have is DJ, who is best at WILB, and Champ. They have no safeties. They will need a couple of drafts to be able to run a 3-4 effectively.'

He also thinks Dumerville MIGHT have a chance as an LB...and actually compares him to Harrison of the Steelers, with both being naturals at getting to the QB, strong and having long arms.

McD and Nolan might Say they want to play a hybrid, but look at last year's results when they tried it. Denver has what...15 D players under contract?

[rcsodak]

That's just it. Who's to say that McD is going to stay with the NE mold in RBs?
The offensive personnel of the respective teams are different, too.

Nonetheless, if that is the case, then Hillis, Torain, and Pittman are perfect,
aren't they? But I'm sure even McD may appreciate a change of pace that
Selvin and/or Tater might be able to give him.

We'll see . . .

-----

I was going to start a new thread, but I'll just jump in here with it, since it pertains to the rb's.

Michael Pittman was on Sirius today. He was asked about his rehab, plans for '09, etc.

He said he was ready to come back, last year, after sitting out 3wks, but Shanny was overly concerned about his injury. He said he should have sat out a 1/4 of the 1st game it happened, and rested it, but instead, kept playing through the pain, and just kept on aggravating it to the point of having a stinger turn into a 'burner'. He said there was no cervical damage.

When asked about returning to Denver, he said McD called him, and said he was welcome back as a FA to try out against others. At this point, he doesn't know what he wants to do, but is willing to be a 'role' player....3rd downs....redzone....etc. He just doesn't want to be sitting on the bench.

When asked about Torrain, he said the kid has some promise, and can be pretty good. But he needs to work on a couple things, and Torrain knows it.

But without being asked, he started throwing accolades around, about Hillis! He said he will be a perennial Pro Bowler! He compares him to Alstott, but only better! Quicker with better feet. He also compared him to Larry Centers...but quicker with better hands!

He says right now, he considers him to be in the top 3 of FB's in the NFL!

Pretty interesting stuff!

[Lonestar]

Well, top, to be fair, denver just doesn't have the personnel for a 3-4D this year...AT ALL!

They have NO nose tackle, no 5 techniques and little to no LB!

Pat Kirwin, who has more experience than everybody on the board, combined, says it best.

To paraphrase:
'I don't see Denver having the personnel this year to run the 3-4. Marcus Thomas is not big enough. They have no nose tackle. Moss isn't a 3-4 OLB OR a DE. All they have is DJ, who is best at WILB, and Champ. They have no safeties. They will need a couple of drafts to be able to run a 3-4 effectively.'

He also thinks Dumerville MIGHT have a chance as an LB...and actually compares him to Harrison of the Steelers, with both being naturals at getting to the QB, strong and having long arms.

McD and Nolan might Say they want to play a hybrid, but look at last year's results when they tried it. Denver has what...15 D players under contract?

But they had not coherent scheme or coaching to go with it.. I fault that more than not having the players to do so..

I do have to agree that right now we do not have the players to play either scheme.. But we have fa next week and the draft coming up.. and last but not least a coaching staff to conjure up something better than last years DOA defense..

Next year will not be pretty but it will be a stepping stone to 2010..

[EMB6903]

Well, top, to be fair, denver just doesn't have the personnel for a 3-4D this year...AT ALL!

They have NO nose tackle, no 5 techniques and little to no LB!

Pat Kirwin, who has more experience than everybody on the board, combined, says it best.

To paraphrase:
'I don't see Denver having the personnel this year to run the 3-4. Marcus Thomas is not big enough. They have no nose tackle. Moss isn't a 3-4 OLB OR a DE. All they have is DJ, who is best at WILB, and Champ. They have no safeties. They will need a couple of drafts to be able to run a 3-4 effectively.'

He also thinks Dumerville MIGHT have a chance as an LB...and actually compares him to Harrison of the Steelers, with both being naturals at getting to the QB, strong and having long arms.

McD and Nolan might Say they want to play a hybrid, but look at last year's results when they tried it. Denver has what...15 D players under contract?


What makes you think Moss isnt capable of playing a 3-4 outside linebacker?
get a 5 technique like Canty in to play along side with Moss and I think Jarvis will have a break out year... you cant deny his potential and athletic abilities, the only question mark was whether he could put his hands on the ground in a 4-3 scheme (which hes proven he cant do but did show some light) remember this guy was pretty much a rookie last year not all defensive lineman come out and produce as soon as they get into this league give the guy some time and a chance)

here are some players in the draft that are capable of playing that 5 technique
tyson Jackson, Sederick Marks, Evander Hood, Fili Moala, Jarron Gilbert, Will Johnson

Thomas might be athletic enough to play as a 3-4 end as well

Our defense is horrible as it is... might as well make the switch now

[topscribe]

Well, top, to be fair, denver just doesn't have the personnel for a 3-4D this year...AT ALL!

They have NO nose tackle, no 5 techniques and little to no LB!

Pat Kirwin, who has more experience than everybody on the board, combined, says it best.

To paraphrase:
'I don't see Denver having the personnel this year to run the 3-4. Marcus Thomas is not big enough. They have no nose tackle. Moss isn't a 3-4 OLB OR a DE. All they have is DJ, who is best at WILB, and Champ. They have no safeties. They will need a couple of drafts to be able to run a 3-4 effectively.'

He also thinks Dumerville MIGHT have a chance as an LB...and actually compares him to Harrison of the Steelers, with both being naturals at getting to the QB, strong and having long arms.

McD and Nolan might Say they want to play a hybrid, but look at last year's results when they tried it. Denver has what...15 D players under contract?

I have to agree about the accumulation of talent for 3-4, especially at NT.
But Joe Collier, the original architect of the 3-4 for the Broncos (Orange
Crush), and one of the originals in the league itself, would disagree with Kirwin,
at least as far as who would and would not work out. Collier said, Moss and
Dumervil might make good OLBs, depending on how they worked in space.

It is a fact that Moss worked out doing OLB moves for scouts prior to the
draft, and that he impressed them. He was actually being considered by some
teams as an OLB.

Regarding Thomas, he is known for his quick feet and speed for a tackle. So,
while he would likely not make a good NT, he might actually be more in his
element at DE, where he can take advantage of his quickness and athleticism.

I don't know what Kirwin was getting at regarding safety. You need good
safeties. Period. It doesn't matter what scheme you play. If you don't have
them, you're dead in the water, as the Broncos demonstrated last year. But
Barrett did pretty decently after they put him in there. Just keep in mind he
was a rookie, so he was not going to be Ed Reed back there, yet that doesn't
mean he won't be good in the future.

But I've said all along the Broncos didn't have the personnel just to switch to
a 3-4. They still don't. Which is probably one reason for the "hybrid" McD was
talking about . . . although he also implied he liked the idea of running a 4-3
against a team that plays 3-4 because they aren't as familiar with the 4-3.

-----

[rcsodak]

What makes you think Moss isnt capable of playing a 3-4 outside linebacker?
get a 5 technique like Canty in to play along side with Moss and I think Jarvis will have a break out year... you cant deny his potential and athletic abilities, the only question mark was whether he could put his hands on the ground in a 4-3 scheme (which hes proven he cant do but did show some light) remember this guy was pretty much a rookie last year not all defensive lineman come out and produce as soon as they get into this league give the guy some time and a chance)

here are some players in the draft that are capable of playing that 5 technique
tyson Jackson, Sederick Marks, Evander Hood, Fili Moala, Jarron Gilbert, Will Johnson

Thomas might be athletic enough to play as a 3-4 end as well

Our defense is horrible as it is... might as well make the switch now

Did you read my post?

I said PAT KIRWIN, who used to be a GM/personnel guy IN the NFL, says that.

I was excited about Moss when they drafted him, but as of now, he's a bust.....which is more than I can say for Crowder, who wasn't even activated last year.

[topscribe]

Did you read my post?

I said PAT KIRWIN, who used to be a GM/personnel guy IN the NFL, says that.

I was excited about Moss when they drafted him, but as of now, he's a bust.....which is more than I can say for Crowder, who wasn't even activated last year.

RC, Moss came into the NFL still recovering from a staff infection, then he
suffered injury. He really hasn't had a chance to play healthy. After I have
seen him with that chance, if he still fails, then I will consider him a bust.

Crowder is an enigma to me. He was doing pretty well as a rookie, then this.
Maybe it's a sophomore slump, and now he can pick it up again. Hope so . . .

-----

[rcsodak]

I have to agree about the accumulation of talent for 3-4, especially at NT.
But Joe Collier, the original architect of the 3-4 for the Broncos (Orange
Crush), and one of the originals in the league itself, would disagree with Kirwin,
at least as far as who would and would not work out. Collier said, Moss and
Dumervil might make good OLBs, depending on how they worked in space.

It is a fact that Moss worked out doing OLB moves for scouts prior to the
draft, and that he impressed them. He was actually being considered by some
teams as an OLB.

Regarding Thomas, he is known for his quick feet and speed for a tackle. So,
while he would likely not make a good NT, he might actually be more in his
element at DE, where he can take advantage of his quickness and athleticism.

I don't know what Kirwin was getting at regarding safety. You need good
safeties. Period. It doesn't matter what scheme you play. If you don't have
them, you're dead in the water, as the Broncos demonstrated last year. But
Barrett did pretty decently after they put him in there. Just keep in mind he
was a rookie, so he was not going to be Ed Reed back there, yet that doesn't
mean he won't be good in the future.

But I've said all along the Broncos didn't have the personnel just to switch to
a 3-4. They still don't. Which is probably one reason for the "hybrid" McD was
talking about . . . although he also implied he liked the idea of running a 4-3
against a team that plays 3-4 because they aren't as familiar with the 4-3.

-----

He also doesn't like Raji as a NT in a 3-4...too short.

Pat goes for certain tangibles, in D players, top. He likes the taller, heavier guys than the short stocky ones. And he flat doesn't think Moss can handle rush end - he gets lost against bigger OT's, and can't hold up against the run.

He's the guy that's been there/done that...and is getting paid by numerous venues to speak his mind.....

...I'm just a flatfoot that listens. :rolleyes:

[topscribe]

He also doesn't like Raji as a NT in a 3-4...too short.

Pat goes for certain tangibles, in D players, top. He likes the taller, heavier guys than the short stocky ones. And he flat doesn't think Moss can handle rush end - he gets lost against bigger OT's, and can't hold up against the run.

He's the guy that's been there/done that...and is getting paid by numerous venues to speak his mind.....

...I'm just a flatfoot that listens. :rolleyes:

Well, we have Kirwin, who's been there, done that, and Collier, who's been the same.

And they disagree on some things, apparently.

It'll be interesting to see how it comes out in the wash . . . http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thdrink.gif

-----

[rcsodak]

RC, Moss came into the NFL still recovering from a staff infection, then he
suffered injury. He really hasn't had a chance to play healthy. After I have
seen him with that chance, if he still fails, then I will consider him a bust.

Crowder is an enigma to me. He was doing pretty well as a rookie, then this.
Maybe it's a sophomore slump, and now he can pick it up again. Hope so . . .

-----

Top, I understand all of that, concerning Moss. I was one of the guys standing up for him, remember?
But he in no way/shape/form showed ANY improvement last year, after being in the system for a year. Agree?

I commend you on your 'cup half full', but at some point you have to let go of those that aren't panning out. Otherwise you end up with Nate Jacksons all up/down your roster.

[rcsodak]

Well, we have Kirwin, who's been there, done that, and Collier, who's been the same.

And they disagree on some things, apparently.

It'll be interesting to see how it comes out in the wash . . . http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thdrink.gif

-----

Yes, we will....

and either the ex-coach from 3 decades ago or the ex-GM from 1.5 decades ago(and current analyst) will be proven correct. ;)

[topscribe]

Top, I understand all of that, concerning Moss. I was one of the guys standing up for him, remember?
But he in no way/shape/form showed ANY improvement last year, after being in the system for a year. Agree?

I commend you on your 'cup half full', but at some point you have to let go of those that aren't panning out. Otherwise you end up with Nate Jacksons all up/down your roster.

Nate is another story. He was a good receiving TE. So, bad example, IMO. :D

Anyway, I'm not standing up for anybody. I'm calling it as I see it. Moss hasn't
yet played healthy at any time. When he does, I'll make my judgment, for
what that's worth. But I won't judge him for what he did while playing hurt.

Same with Boss, actually. He has not played healthy for the Broncos. Before
his injury, he was playing with a high ankle sprain, and he actually did a pretty
fair job. I want to see him healthy, then maybe I will join the others on these
boards who are throwing him under the bus. But not until. Let's face it: a
player just does not play as well with an injury to his wheels . . .

-----

[EMB6903]

Did you read my post?

I said PAT KIRWIN, who used to be a GM/personnel guy IN the NFL, says that.

I was excited about Moss when they drafted him, but as of now, he's a bust.....which is more than I can say for Crowder, who wasn't even activated last year.

my bad I mis read your comment, I wouldnt have even commented if I knew you were going by what some "EXPERT" who rarely watches Denver play had to say about this team. I hope you arent taking him serious

By the way Kirwin never was a GM my man at best he was the director of player administration dealing with contract negotiations and salary cap issues.

[underrated29]

well looks like we can end this part of the discussion.....Tatum Bell the FA according to our FO will not be resigned...So bye bye tatum.


As for the rb who were or could start.....

arrington as we know did in AZ.

Betts did in WAS when CP was hurt- in 13 games betts was the leagues best rusher i believe.

Noorowood- in ATL- he splits reps with now turner and before then i dont know, but he sees around 15 reps or so, plus they use him a lot for passing.

Leon Washington, before TJ come back year this year, Washington was outproducing TJ in NY.


I cant think of the rest, and its all kinda moot now, but i thought i show a few who were or could be........

[Lonestar]

well looks like we can end this part of the discussion.....Tatum Bell the FA according to our FO will not be resigned...So bye bye tatum.
........

tater is toast :elefant::elefant::elefant: there is a God..

[Dreadnought]

tater is toast :elefant::elefant::elefant: there is a God..

I take a very opposite view - more disturbing signs of short sighted incompetence from the new management team. More small indicators that the future is not bright for us. What next? The Broncos news is getting less fun by the day, and has been since the day Shanahan got axed.

[TXBRONC]

I take a very opposite view - more disturbing signs of short sighted incompetence from the new management team. More small indicators that the future is not bright for us. What next? The Broncos news is getting less fun by the day, and has been since the day Shanahan got axed.

Dread, I like T. Bell but I don't think this any indicator of short sightedness on the part of management. As much as I think he's a good change of pace back to have around the fact is he wouldn't haven even been on the team if wasn't for the rash of injuries.

[Dreadnought]

Dread, I like T. Bell but I don't think this any indicator of short sightedness on the part of management. As much as I think he's a good change of pace back to have around the fact is he wouldn't haven even been on the team if wasn't for the rash of injuries.

Here's the thing - He was cheap, reasonably well proven, and available. No risk at all. So why cut the ties when there was no reason not to offer a contract? Its not like this was Nate Webster or something. This move of not offering a contract tells me they are all about marking the team as "their" turf and cleaning house for the sake of change. My own view is that this is often a reflexive losers approach and a mark of severe insecurity.

[Lonestar]

I take a very opposite view - more disturbing signs of short sighted incompetence from the new management team. More small indicators that the future is not bright for us. What next? The Broncos news is getting less fun by the day, and has been since the day Shanahan got axed.

I guess my good friend that we will have to agree to disagree about mikey Etal and lots of his players and coaches being let go..

I suspect time will tell who here is correct..

I applaud Mc Kid for making the cuts he thinks is necessary to rid the team of favorites (although I like Nate J.) deadwood and mold the team into what he thinks will be a winner..

It is also fair to those cut to be advised so they can move on and try to get on with anther team.. I can;t fault him for that whatsoever..

We all know that while our offense has been potent the defense has really never held up it side of the bargain between the D and ST.. we have not been able to repeat play off wins since the HOF crew left..

I have been an advocate forever with..


You win or lose at the LOS.

and

Offense wins games,

Defense wins championships...

[Lonestar]

Here's the thing - He was cheap, reasonably well proven, and available. No risk at all. So why cut the ties when there was no reason not to offer a contract? Its not like this was Nate Webster or something. This move of not offering a contract tells me they are all about marking the team as "their" turf and cleaning house for the sake of change. My own view is that this is often a reflexive losers approach and a mark of severe insecurity.

I see it more of letting them move on as they are not in the plans for the future.. Why give someone false hope if they are not going to be part of it..

Why pay them for something that is not going to happen.. let them try and hook up with someone else..

[TXBRONC]

Here's the thing - He was cheap, reasonably well proven, and available. No risk at all. So why cut the ties when there was no reason not to offer a contract? Its not like this was Nate Webster or something. This move of not offering a contract tells me they are all about marking the team as "their" turf and cleaning house for the sake of change. My own view is that this is often a reflexive losers approach and a mark of severe insecurity.

I try to see it as them trying to make the team better, besides that there is nothing that says that they wont re-sign him at a later date.

[topscribe]

Here's the thing - He was cheap, reasonably well proven, and available. No risk at all. So why cut the ties when there was no reason not to offer a contract? Its not like this was Nate Webster or something. This move of not offering a contract tells me they are all about marking the team as "their" turf and cleaning house for the sake of change. My own view is that this is often a reflexive losers approach and a mark of severe insecurity.

I believe Tater more than proved himself worthy of another look this year.

It could be, however, they are determining his market value, and may re-sign him?

-----

[TXBRONC]

I believe Tater more than proved himself worthy of another look this year.

It could be, however, they are determining his market value, and may re-sign him?

-----

You said much better than I did. :salute:

[rcsodak]

Here's the thing - He was cheap, reasonably well proven, and available. No risk at all. So why cut the ties when there was no reason not to offer a contract? Its not like this was Nate Webster or something. This move of not offering a contract tells me they are all about marking the team as "their" turf and cleaning house for the sake of change. My own view is that this is often a reflexive losers approach and a mark of severe insecurity.

Or, they are waiting to see what he's offered, if anything, on the market, so they don't pull a AlDavis and overpay him.

Just a thought.

But from what I've heard, the FO is taking a serious look at DWard, of the NY Football Giants. I'd say he's a little more proven.

[fcspikeit]

Nate is another story. He was a good receiving TE. So, bad example, IMO. :D

Anyway, I'm not standing up for anybody. I'm calling it as I see it. Moss hasn't
yet played healthy at any time. When he does, I'll make my judgment, for
what that's worth. But I won't judge him for what he did while playing hurt.

Same with Boss, actually. He has not played healthy for the Broncos. Before
his injury, he was playing with a high ankle sprain, and he actually did a pretty
fair job. I want to see him healthy, then maybe I will join the others on these
boards who are throwing him under the bus. But not until. Let's face it: a
player just does not play as well with an injury to his wheels . . .

-----

I haven't completely gave up on Moss but regardless the reason, he hasn't helped this team win games. There does always seem to be something wrong with his health.. It might not be his fault but he can't help us win while he is sitting on the bench.

[fcspikeit]

RC, Moss came into the NFL still recovering from a staff infection, then he
suffered injury. He really hasn't had a chance to play healthy. After I have
seen him with that chance, if he still fails, then I will consider him a bust.

Crowder is an enigma to me. He was doing pretty well as a rookie, then this.
Maybe it's a sophomore slump, and now he can pick it up again. Hope so . . .

-----


I have the feeling Crowder found his way in Shanahans doghouse.. Besides that, there were plenty of players sitting on the bench that out played the starters... I don't believe Slowic had a clue when it came to putting the best players on the field. It's hard to believe Hillis was sitting on the bench for most of the year, although that one can't be pinned on Slowic ;)

[EMB6903]

I haven't completely gave up on Moss but regardless the reason, he hasn't helped this team win games. There does always seem to be something wrong with his health.. It might not be his fault but he can't help us win while he is sitting on the bench.

I dont think it helped that Shanny didnt activate him half of the year...

[TXBRONC]

I have the feeling Crowder found his way in Shanahans doghouse.. Besides that, there were plenty of players sitting on the bench that out played the starters... I don't believe Slowic had a clue when it came to putting the best players on the field. It's hard to believe Hillis was sitting on the bench for most of the year, although that one can't be pinned on Slowic ;)

He wasn't on the bench FC accept a couple of games. One game he was inactive because he had his grandmother's funeral to attend one where Larsen started ahead of him. The only other game he did play alot was against the Oakland opening day because we played a lot two tight ends. I think it's fairly safe to assume he would have made a total of six starts at tail back had he not gotten hurt.