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TXBRONC
01-04-2012, 07:53 AM
I guess John really does want Tebow to fail.


Woody Paige: John Elway wants Tim Tebow to "pull the trigger" in NFL playoffs
Posted: 01/04/2012 01:00:00 AM MST


With Tebow at quarterback, the Broncos won seven of eight. However, they've dropped the last three. Tebow seems to have lost his confidence and has been tentative, or fearful, throwing the football, I suggested to Elway.

"That's human nature, especially when you're young, to become more cautious," Elway said. "He had a tough week before (the Chiefs game) against Buffalo. The key thing for (Tebow) is to go out, put everything behind him, go through his progressions and pull the trigger.

http://www.denverpost.com/paige/ci_19669652

HORSEPOWER 56
01-04-2012, 08:16 AM
Give the guy some confidence throws. Shorten up the routes, use bootlegs and designed rollouts to limit his reads, screens, and play action. That would do worlds for getting his confidence up.

Tim needs to throw more quickly and like Elway said, "pull the trigger", but giving him a better gameplan and not always putting him behind in down and distance (3rd and long) before you allow him to throw, will help immensely.

CoachChaz
01-04-2012, 08:47 AM
If all they do is eliminate the 15 yard routes on 3rd and 4, it will help immensely. But nevertheless, I still see Tim locking into one receiver and not going through his progressions. My prediction this week...

10-24, 175 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT

Poet
01-04-2012, 08:50 AM
They do not want him pulling the trigger against the Steelers.

TXBRONC
01-04-2012, 09:13 AM
Give the guy some confidence throws. Shorten up the routes, use bootlegs and designed rollouts to limit his reads, screens, and play action. That would do worlds for getting his confidence up.

Tim needs to throw more quickly and like Elway said, "pull the trigger", but giving him a better gameplan and not always putting him behind in down and distance (3rd and long) before you allow him to throw, will help immensely.

There's is validity to a better game plan but fact is there were still plenty of times he held onto the ball way to long. He needs throw the ball to a receiver before they makes his break.

red98
01-04-2012, 09:15 AM
I guess John really does want Tebow to fail.

That was a great article. Well worth reading the whole thing.

Chef Zambini
01-04-2012, 09:21 AM
They do not want him pulling the trigger against the Steelers.actually, I think elway does. because he knows the gun will be to timmy's head. if TT plays like a gunslinger(farvre0 he will have 5 INTs ! and thats exactly what ELWAY wants so he can dump TEBOW and drfat a legitimate NFL QB and be done with this luidicrous madness..
as for the roll outs, THE DEFENSES are positioning themselves to take that away. Thjey dont care if he stays in the pocket, they dont care if he tries to escape straight up the middle. those are paths to failkutre.
and if he tries to scramble to his left, we saw the results against the cheifs... backward progress !
Tin sucks ,smell the coffee, wake up from your fantasy people! its been a fun season but timmys pocket full of miracxles is EMPTY and the new sherrif in town is REALITY !

TXBRONC
01-04-2012, 09:23 AM
That was a great article. Well worth reading the whole thing.

Agreed. :salute:

SOCALORADO.
01-04-2012, 09:26 AM
Good article. Woody is a bit of a fan boy though. But the stuff about Elway and the FO is good to know. I am glad for EFX. They took chicken shit and made chicken salad and thats impressive, considering so many ate it up.

spikerman
01-04-2012, 09:39 AM
When I helped coach little league a few years ago we had a kid who was a pretty decent hitter. For some reason, about halfway through the season he became deathly afraid of the ball and he stopped swinging the bat. He seemed paralyzed in the batter's box. Finally, after a couple of games before he went to hit I pulled him aside and told him that I didn't care where the first pitch was he had to swing at the first pitch. The ball was way out of the strike zone but he swung anyway - and missed by a mile. The thing was, after that the spell was broken and he went back to swinging the bat.

Tim has to do the same thing, even if it results in a bad play. After last week he has to break the paralysis. He has to get over the fear of throwing the ball. I think that's what Elway is trying to do here. Just grip it and rip it and live with the results. That's how NFL QBs make their money.

Thnikkaman
01-04-2012, 09:47 AM
Great article.

I want Tebow to fail too. Since I believe that you must first fail to learn to succeed.

Northman
01-04-2012, 10:15 AM
Its the playoffs, let it rip Tim. At least if you fail we know where we stand at QB.

vandammage13
01-04-2012, 10:29 AM
They do not want him pulling the trigger against the Steelers.

If they want to win they will have to take the reins off a bit.

They will have less of a chance of winning if they don't open it up some and allow TT to at least have a chance to succeed.

Of course, he might fail miserably if they let him throw more on early downs, but I would like to see this team at least go down swinging as opposed to hoping for another unlikely late game miracle.

TXBRONC
01-04-2012, 10:31 AM
When I helped coach little league a few years ago we had a kid who was a pretty decent hitter. For some reason, about halfway through the season he became deathly afraid of the ball and he stopped swinging the bat. He seemed paralyzed in the batter's box. Finally, after a couple of games before he went to hit I pulled him aside and told him that I didn't care where the first pitch was he had to swing at the first pitch. The ball was way out of the strike zone but he swung anyway - and missed by a mile. The thing was, after that the spell was broken and he went back to swinging the bat.

Tim has to do the same thing, even if it results in a bad play. After last week he has to break the paralysis. He has to get over the fear of throwing the ball. I think that's what Elway is trying to do here. Just grip it and rip it and live with the results. That's how NFL QBs make their money.

Tim needs to set bad outings aside and just play. When you have open receiver on a flee flicker don't hesitate.

vandammage13
01-04-2012, 10:31 AM
Twenty-eight seasons ago, in his second season with the Broncos, Elway started his first NFL playoff game against, as irony would have it, the Steelers.

Dang...has it really been that long ago?..Doesn't seem like it.

Man I'm getting old.

Chef Zambini
01-04-2012, 10:33 AM
the article is more about elway and his first year as a bronco exec.
Elway just wants tim to go out there and give it his all.
that way he can dump the kid when we see what timmys all is all about... incompetence !

TXBRONC
01-04-2012, 10:41 AM
If they want to win they will have to take the reins off a bit.

They will have less of a chance of winning if they don't open it up some and allow TT to at least have a chance to succeed.

Of course, he might fail miserably if they let him throw more on early downs, but I would like to see this team at least go down swinging as opposed to hoping for another unlikely late game miracle.

I don't think Elway necessarily means throwing more what he means don't hesistate when you have the opportunity to throw.

vandammage13
01-04-2012, 10:42 AM
There's is validity to a better game plan but the fact still there were plenty of times held onto the ball way to long. He needs throw the ball to a receiver before he makes his break.

Don't expect that to happen on Sunday...

Tebow's at least going to need another offseason building rapport with his recievers and getting more comfortable reading defenses before he'll be able to do that.

I like his playmaking abilities, but clearly he still has a lot to learn (Most of which is when to "pull the trigger" and when to abandon the pocket and use his legs).

Despite the setbacks of the last few weeks, it is still promising to me that we were still able to make the playoffs while TT still has much to learn. It's a testament of where we are as a team and how we are possibly only scratching the surface of what TT can do.

Northman
01-04-2012, 10:44 AM
Don't expect that to happen on Sunday...

Tebow's at least going to need another offseason building rapport with his recievers and getting more comfortable reading defenses before he'll be able to do that.

I like his playmaking abilities, but clearly he still has a lot to learn (Most of which is when to "pull the trigger" and when to abandon the pocket and use his legs).

Despite the setbacks of the last few weeks, it is still promising to me that we were still able to make the playoffs while TT still has much to learn. It's a testament of where we are as a team and how we are possibly only scratching the surface of what TT can do.

I dont know if its a testament to where we are as most of it was just not having gamefilm and knowing Tebow's tendencies. But, if Tebow goes in as the starter next year its either going to be better or worse. If is he is the starter lets hope he improves and doesnt become a one trick pony.

vandammage13
01-04-2012, 10:45 AM
I don't think Elway necessarily means throwing more what he means don't hesistate when you have the opportunity to throw.

I agree....The plays need to be made even though there are a very limited amount of opportunities.

But as Phil Simms was alluding to during the telecast of the Chiefs game, the coaching staff has been overemphasizing protecting the football to the point that Tebow is hesitant to sling it.

HammeredOut
01-04-2012, 10:48 AM
Well Kyle Orton started off 6-0 and then fell off the map, the same seems to be happening to Tim Tebow here. If lady luck is on our side this week, the stat of the week is; the fact both of the lowest scoring teams in the playoffs are facing each other off the bat.

I believe we will get killed if Tebow passes the ball more then 24 times. The Broncos and John Fox need to incorporate some quick bootleg crossing routes to the TE and keep the Pittsburgh LBs guessing. In a lot of ways, the Broncos can set up the big play along the sidelines with 8 in the box. From the past history of a ton of Steelers losses, teams usually beat them with a ton of crossing routes, and the odd inside post. When the Steelers have been run on successfully it was usually good zone blocking teams, or straight up Iso's with a FB. I would like to see the Broncos play upset this time around. Even though the Steelers are 8 point favorites, I honestly think Tomlin will stick to his guns, and run the ball 75% of the time for the first 3 quarters. We do have a good chance.

vandammage13
01-04-2012, 10:51 AM
I dont know if its a testament to where we are as most of it was just not having gamefilm and knowing Tebow's tendencies. But, if Tebow goes in as the starter next year its either going to be better or worse. If is he is the starter lets hope he improves and doesnt become a one trick pony.

I believe there's another side to that coin though...

As you said, we hope that TT improves, that much is obvious.

But the other side of the coin is that as we get more and more film on how teams are defending us, we will be able to make adjustments of our own.

As McCoy said earlier this year, it makes it tough to gameplan offensively because no other teams run the type of offense we do, therefore we have no idea how defenses will choose to defend us.

Now that there is a blueprint out there that teams have seemed to copy ever since we got Belichick'd, we now have a pretty good idea of how teams will play us and now adjustments can be made.

Its up to the coaches to figure it out, and up to TT and the rest of the team to execute it.

Thnikkaman
01-04-2012, 10:53 AM
the article is more about elway and his first year as a bronco exec.
Elway just wants tim to go out there and give it his all.
that way he can dump the kid when we see what timmys all is all about... incompetence !

Hey Zam, if you knew nothing about Elway, Elway's rookie season was this year, and he played with the same numbers he did in his rookie season, would you say the same thing?

For ****s sake Zam, you say you have been a fan of the Broncos since their inception, out of all people, I would expect you to show some patience. Yet you continue to show the composure of a meth addict trying to score their next bump.

Tned
01-04-2012, 10:56 AM
I dont know if its a testament to where we are as most of it was just not having gamefilm and knowing Tebow's tendencies. But, if Tebow goes in as the starter next year its either going to be better or worse. If is he is the starter lets hope he improves and doesnt become a one trick pony.

Tebow obviously needs to get better, but at the same time, the offensive scheme, and play calling, needs to mature. Our receivers need to get better at getting open (both an experience/skill issue and scheme issue).

There needs to be more designed, short routes. Not just run or bomb. Even when we go three wide, we often motion one of the receivers in to block, or at least chip a rusher. Our routes are long, and slow developing.

Then, obviously, Tebow has to get better, so he can read the defenses and do a better job of anticipating which receiver will be open, seeing him when he is open and hitting him once he sees him.

All told, there is a lot to be excited about on the defensive side, not much on the offensive side right now. Even the rushing game, is purely a side effect of Tebow at QB and teams focusing on stopping him giving up some yards to the RBs. It's the only reason we jumped from 22nd in the league to first in the league (and stayed there) in rushing.

Chef Zambini
01-04-2012, 11:04 AM
I appreciate your assesment of me. But as a devotee of FOOTBALL for more than 50 years I can tell you that my bassesment of tim tebow is that regardless of his diligent hard work , faith and determination, he still cant throw a legitimate NFL pass. He still cant remain calm in the pocket and go thru a "progression of rercievers and routes.
he can run like a bull or a rat in a room full of cats.
he has fullback capabilities that wont cut it in the NFL as a QB !
He is a poor mans bobby douglas, development, wont change what timmy is !
ten years from now tim will still be incompetent ! ROOKIES are better than TEBOW ! why should I be patient?
He is a tri-cycle that will never be a ten speed
a mountain bike that will never win the tour de france.
a QB that will never be a competent NFL passer.... NEVER !
why should I be patient when kellen moore could make a better game of it THIS week than timmy will on sunday?
kellen will be a 5th round pick, but right NOW I would rather see him under centeron sunday! honestly .seriously.
every single QB draftyed this year and last has shown more passing competence and pocket presence than TIM.
sunday, tim will fail again, it is his destiny.

Ravage!!!
01-04-2012, 11:05 AM
I don't think this is Elway wanting Tebow to "fail." This is Elway saying..."Dude, its time to put the jock strap on and GET IT DONE." Because this being scared to throw the ball to tight windows will NOT work in this league. Its time to step it up, its the playoffs, and if you are constantly worried every time you throw the ball, then you absolutely will NOT be an NFL QB.

This is Elway backing Tebow. Elway is saying "its ok to give it a try."

Ravage!!!
01-04-2012, 11:08 AM
But the other side of the coin is that as we get more and more film on how teams are defending us, we will be able to make adjustments of our own.



Well, that would mean that if teams are working to take away Tebow's runs, and allowing him to throw...... then our team would then want to throw the ball, more?

vandammage13
01-04-2012, 11:08 AM
Tebow obviously needs to get better, but at the same time, the offensive scheme, and play calling, needs to mature. Our receivers need to get better at getting open (both an experience/skill issue and scheme issue).

There needs to be more designed, short routes. Not just run or bomb. Even when we go three wide, we often motion one of the receivers in to block, or at least chip a rusher. Our routes are long, and slow developing.

Then, obviously, Tebow has to get better, so he can read the defenses and do a better job of anticipating which receiver will be open, seeing him when he is open and hitting him once he sees him.

All told, there is a lot to be excited about on the defensive side, not much on the offensive side right now. Even the rushing game, is purely a side effect of Tebow at QB and teams focusing on stopping him giving up some yards to the RBs. It's the only reason we jumped from 22nd in the league to first in the league (and stayed there) in rushing.

I actually think with some improvement from Tebow, coupled with the addition of an elite wide reciever this offense could be very dangerous.

Imagine if we had a WR that could routinely beat single coverage...this offense could flourish.

Right now our recievers are very seldomly springing open against single man coverage, and even on the seldom occaision that they do, TT is either not finding them or just outright missing them.

If we had a legit #1 that could routinely beat his man in 1 on 1 situations, there would be a hell of a lot more than 1 or 2 chances a game to hit the big play...It would just leave a lot more room for error, IMO.

Denver Native (Carol)
01-04-2012, 11:09 AM
When I helped coach little league a few years ago we had a kid who was a pretty decent hitter. For some reason, about halfway through the season he became deathly afraid of the ball and he stopped swinging the bat. He seemed paralyzed in the batter's box. Finally, after a couple of games before he went to hit I pulled him aside and told him that I didn't care where the first pitch was he had to swing at the first pitch. The ball was way out of the strike zone but he swung anyway - and missed by a mile. The thing was, after that the spell was broken and he went back to swinging the bat.

Tim has to do the same thing, even if it results in a bad play. After last week he has to break the paralysis. He has to get over the fear of throwing the ball. I think that's what Elway is trying to do here. Just grip it and rip it and live with the results. That's how NFL QBs make their money.

I totally agree with you. The assumption, by some, that John wants TT to fail is totally ridiculous IMO.

Northman
01-04-2012, 11:10 AM
Tebow obviously needs to get better, but at the same time, the offensive scheme, and play calling, needs to mature. Our receivers need to get better at getting open (both an experience/skill issue and scheme issue).




Indeed, but i think the reason that it hasnt is because the QB can not handle anything more. At least Fox eludes to the idea that Tebow cant run it so what exactly are they supposed to do when the QB cant run anything beyond what they are doing?

Chef Zambini
01-04-2012, 11:13 AM
TEBOW is the WEAKEST link of our offense. its not the gameplan. its not the play-calling.
its not the o-line
its not the wide receivers.
TEBOW is the weakest link.
with all the other one or two year QBs I see talent, skill, competence and potential. with TIM I see determination, desire and a complete lack of abilioty to be a PASSER in the NFL.
Sure other parts of our O can get better, but the worst part of our offense is tim tebow.
without the late game heroics and miracles, tebow is reduced to inept.
we have seen that his last 3 gamers and we will see it again sunday, sorry.

Chef Zambini
01-04-2012, 11:14 AM
I don't think this is Elway wanting Tebow to "fail." This is Elway saying..."Dude, its time to put the jock strap on and GET IT DONE." Because this being scared to throw the ball to tight windows will NOT work in this league. Its time to step it up, its the playoffs, and if you are constantly worried every time you throw the ball, then you absolutely will NOT be an NFL QB.

This is Elway backing Tebow. Elway is saying "its ok to give it a try."
this is elway doing a better job of PR.

vandammage13
01-04-2012, 11:15 AM
Well, that would mean that if teams are working to take away Tebow's runs, and allowing him to throw...... then our team would then want to throw the ball, more?

Not necessarily throwing it more, just maybe changing when and how.

We are a running team...That is our strength and we should limit our passing because we are better at running the ball.

However, WHEN we pass the ball should change some...mix it up a bit more on 1st and 2nd down to make the defenses guess.

HOW we pass the ball should change by finding soft spots for short gains that can set up 3rd and short where we can then go back to our strength, which is running.

We are so predictable right now...Even when we pass on 3rd and 8, the majority of our routes are 15+ yards down the field.

Thnikkaman
01-04-2012, 11:17 AM
I appreciate your assesment of me. But as a devotee of FOOTBALL for more than 50 years I can tell you that my bassesment of tim tebow is that regardless of his diligent hard work , faith and determination, he still cant throw a legitimate NFL pass. He still cant remain calm in the pocket and go thru a "progression of rercievers and routes.
he can run like a bull or a rat in a room full of cats.
he has fullback capabilities that wont cut it in the NFL as a QB !
He is a poor mans bobby douglas, development, wont change what timmy is !
ten years from now tim will still be incompetent ! ROOKIES are better than TEBOW ! why should I be patient?
He is a tri-cycle that will never be a ten speed
a mountain bike that will never win the tour de france.
a QB that will never be a competent NFL passer.... NEVER !
why should I be patient when kellen moore could make a better game of it THIS week than timmy will on sunday?
kellen will be a 5th round pick, but right NOW I would rather see him under centeron sunday! honestly .seriously.
every single QB draftyed this year and last has shown more passing competence and pocket presence than TIM.
sunday, tim will fail again, it is his destiny.

By what means have you come to this assessment?
Again, did you feel the same way about Elway in his rookie season?
I need some sort of reasoning behind your statements other than "I am the great an allmighty Zam who busses tables for a living and can't operate a keyboard properly."

Without it, you are just another old kook fanboy who again is showing why you aren't an NFL scout.

TXBRONC
01-04-2012, 11:21 AM
Don't expect that to happen on Sunday...

Tebow's at least going to need another offseason building rapport with his recievers and getting more comfortable reading defenses before he'll be able to do that.

I like his playmaking abilities, but clearly he still has a lot to learn (Most of which is when to "pull the trigger" and when to abandon the pocket and use his legs).

Despite the setbacks of the last few weeks, it is still promising to me that we were still able to make the playoffs while TT still has much to learn. It's a testament of where we are as a team and how we are possibly only scratching the surface of what TT can do.

Well I think still going have to try do that if Denver is going to have a chance of winning this game.

Chef Zambini
01-04-2012, 11:22 AM
if the broncos throw the ball LESS than 10 times they are trying to win!
if they let TT throw the ball more than 8 times in the first half then they are trying to make iot clear to all the delerious tebow supporters that timmy aint the answer! I guarantee a loss if timmy throws the ball more than 15 times !
Fumbles
sacks
Interceptions
these are my expectations when tebow attempts a pass.
an incompletion is a [positive for tebow.
and just as that was pathetic for orton, so too it is pathetic for timmy.

vandammage13
01-04-2012, 11:31 AM
if the broncos throw the ball LESS than 10 times they are trying to win!
if they let TT throw the ball more than 8 times in the first half then they are trying to make iot clear to all the delerious tebow supporters that timmy aint the answer! I guarantee a loss if timmy throws the ball more than 15 times !
Fumbles
sacks
Interceptions
these are my expectations when tebow attempts a pass.
an incompletion is a [positive for tebow.
and just as that was pathetic for orton, so too it is pathetic for timmy.

Broncos are 6-4 when Tebow throws 15 or more passes a game...Sorry, the results just don't quite add up with your statement.

Flaming Horsehead
01-04-2012, 11:38 AM
I appreciate your assesment of me. But as a devotee of FOOTBALL for more than 50 years I can tell you that my bassesment of tim tebow is that regardless of his diligent hard work , faith and determination, he still cant throw a legitimate NFL pass. He still cant remain calm in the pocket and go thru a "progression of rercievers and routes.
he can run like a bull or a rat in a room full of cats.
he has fullback capabilities that wont cut it in the NFL as a QB !
He is a poor mans bobby douglas, development, wont change what timmy is !
ten years from now tim will still be incompetent ! ROOKIES are better than TEBOW ! why should I be patient?
He is a tri-cycle that will never be a ten speed
a mountain bike that will never win the tour de france.
a QB that will never be a competent NFL passer.... NEVER !
why should I be patient when kellen moore could make a better game of it THIS week than timmy will on sunday?
kellen will be a 5th round pick, but right NOW I would rather see him under centeron sunday! honestly .seriously.
every single QB draftyed this year and last has shown more passing competence and pocket presence than TIM.
sunday, tim will fail again, it is his destiny.

It's really something when a guy who has been lurking for a very long time finally makes an account just to tell you to shut up.

GEM
01-04-2012, 12:11 PM
It's really something when a guy who has been lurking for a very long time finally makes an account just to tell you to shut up.

That is really something. :laugh: You made it through Broncowarrior and his giving blood thread and didn't sign up!! :lol:

This post made me giggle though. :D

Elevation inc
01-04-2012, 12:25 PM
I don't think this is Elway wanting Tebow to "fail." This is Elway saying..."Dude, its time to put the jock strap on and GET IT DONE." Because this being scared to throw the ball to tight windows will NOT work in this league. Its time to step it up, its the playoffs, and if you are constantly worried every time you throw the ball, then you absolutely will NOT be an NFL QB.

This is Elway backing Tebow. Elway is saying "its ok to give it a try."


I agree 100% with this RAV, good call.....I think it was clear after buffalo what we saw last week was a guy tentative to pass after 4 turnovers the week previous. he is young it happens.....It clearly was a lack of trust/execution and performance by all our offense outside of Franklin/Hochstein/Mcghaee which were the only 3 offensive players to do there jobs.....

Elway is backing him big time with his comments....Now tebow needs to go ball his arse off so we can shut everyone up about backing in....lol :lol:

Denver Native (Carol)
01-04-2012, 12:27 PM
Indeed, but i think the reason that it hasnt is because the QB can not handle anything more. At least Fox eludes to the idea that Tebow cant run it so what exactly are they supposed to do when the QB cant run anything beyond what they are doing?

After the Chief's game, one of the sports people (can't remember who), responded to a caller complaining about the play calling. The caller said that the play calling hampered TT, and the sports person said - no, TT hampered the play calling. I just remembered that the sports person on the radio was Joel Klatt, CU’s starting quarterback for his sophomore through senior seasons.

Northman
01-04-2012, 12:32 PM
After the Chief's game, one of the sports people (can't remember who), responded to a caller complaining about the play calling. The caller said that the play calling hampered TT, and the sports person said - no, TT hampered the play calling. I just remembered that the sports person on the radio was Joel Klatt, CU’s starting quarterback for his sophomore through senior seasons.


I believe it.

I know people like to place a lot of the blame elsewhere but im not on board with that. There are some other playoff teams with below average Oline's who are getting much better production from the QB's than we are. Again, its not to say we dont have some other issues elsewhere its just to say we are very weak at QB and unless the rest of the club pulls a rabbit out of their ass we will get steamrolled because our QB cant take over a game through the air when he needs too. Im just not sold anymore that Tebow can be that guy in the NFL. But at least it was fun for the short time it lasted.

MasterShake
01-04-2012, 12:50 PM
After the Chief's game, one of the sports people (can't remember who), responded to a caller complaining about the play calling. The caller said that the play calling hampered TT, and the sports person said - no, TT hampered the play calling. I just remembered that the sports person on the radio was Joel Klatt, CU’s starting quarterback for his sophomore through senior seasons.

On a side note, Klatt and Evans are actually putting on a pretty decent show in the morning. He was pretty critical after the game, but today him and Evans were just going off about how they were confident the Broncos would win Sunday. Still no Vic and Gary, but its probably gonna be my new morning show since Mike and Mike is on 102.3 now...

Thnikkaman
01-04-2012, 12:55 PM
It's really something when a guy who has been lurking for a very long time finally makes an account just to tell you to shut up.

http://www.gameinformer.com/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer-Discussions-Components-Files/14492/3021.Slow_2D00_Clap.gif

NightTerror218
01-04-2012, 12:55 PM
I believe it.

I know people like to place a lot of the blame elsewhere but im not on board with that. There are some other playoff teams with below average Oline's who are getting much better production from the QB's than we are. Again, its not to say we dont have some other issues elsewhere its just to say we are very weak at QB and unless the rest of the club pulls a rabbit out of their ass we will get steamrolled because our QB cant take over a game through the air when he needs too. Im just not sold anymore that Tebow can be that guy in the NFL. But at least it was fun for the short time it lasted.

They are. They also run an offense with screens and outs to over compensate for it. Our TEs and RBs tend to stay and block during passing plays to help block.

You need to figure this is Tebows first starting year (2nd year in NFL). Most dont come out until third season. Tebow showed he has the potential but his consistency is not there. Whether that gets better is unknown. I think its funny how people were "sold on Tebow" after winning 7 games and then want to kick him to curb after 3 losses. 2 against good teams. Pats and Buff are good teams. Buffalo just had a bad streak being a strictly run first team played to their DL strengths.

I agree that if we are going to win this game it will need to be on Tebows arm. He needs to beat the steel curtain with him arm in order to move the chains and I hope McCoy realizes this too. We may get lucky with defense or STs scoring.

Thnikkaman
01-04-2012, 12:56 PM
This is the guy Zam would rather have:

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/937339/Dalton.gif

Ravage!!!
01-04-2012, 01:01 PM
HOW we pass the ball should change by finding soft spots for short gains that can set up 3rd and short where we can then go back to our strength, which is running.

We are so predictable right now...Even when we pass on 3rd and 8, the majority of our routes are 15+ yards down the field.

We are VERY VERY limited by Tim. Thats the problem. If every team could just "find the soft spots andhit the 5 yard passes" all day, then there wou ld NEVER be a third day play in the NFL. The QB HAS to be the one to find those spots, know where to throw, and actually be able to put the ball on target.

The problem is that Tim's inability to throw the ball absolutely limits EVERYTHING we do on offense.

jlarsiii
01-04-2012, 01:09 PM
They are. They also run an offense with screens and outs to over compensate for it. Our TEs and RBs tend to stay and block during passing plays to help block.

You need to figure this is Tebows first starting year (2nd year in NFL). Most dont come out until third season. Tebow showed he has the potential but his consistency is not there. Whether that gets better is unknown. I think its funny how people were "sold on Tebow" after winning 7 games and then want to kick him to curb after 3 losses. 2 against good teams. Pats and Buff are good teams. Buffalo just had a bad streak being a strictly run first team played to their DL strengths.

I agree that if we are going to win this game it will need to be on Tebows arm. He needs to beat the steel curtain with him arm in order to move the chains and I hope McCoy realizes this too. We may get lucky with defense or STs scoring.

Sorry Phidelt, but I don't agree. I was not sold on Tebow after his winning streak, and I am much more inclined to be leaning towards kicking him to the curb at the moment. You speak of potential but I still haven't seen it.

I think that regardless of the outcome of the game this Sunday that Tebow will get another season to prove himself. Frankly, we really don't have another good option at this point. I am sure they will bring in somebody to compete with Tebow, and back him up during the season as needed. I do believe that he will be on a short leash, and if major improvements in key areas are not made then that will be the end of the Tebow era in Denver.

Right now I can't get over the fact that Tebow limits this offense much more then he helps it at this time...

Edit: Agree with Rav's post directly above

Northman
01-04-2012, 01:10 PM
They are. They also run an offense with screens and outs to over compensate for it. Our TEs and RBs tend to stay and block during passing plays to help block.

You need to figure this is Tebows first starting year (2nd year in NFL). Most dont come out until third season. Tebow showed he has the potential but his consistency is not there. Whether that gets better is unknown. I think its funny how people were "sold on Tebow" after winning 7 games and then want to kick him to curb after 3 losses. 2 against good teams. Pats and Buff are good teams. Buffalo just had a bad streak being a strictly run first team played to their DL strengths.

I agree that if we are going to win this game it will need to be on Tebows arm. He needs to beat the steel curtain with him arm in order to move the chains and I hope McCoy realizes this too. We may get lucky with defense or STs scoring.


Well, for myself i need to clarify my own stance because i dont want to be lumped in with everyone else. There are a lot of qualities i like about Tebow, his leadership, fire, and passion for the game. Its undeniable how hard he works to be the best he can be. And during the winning streak i went week to week thinking he couldnt get it done and yet he did. I couldnt explain it, but now after the last 3 losses when i see the other side of the coin i can explain it. It was an aberration, a series of luck (i know, it happens to a lot of teams from time to time) that allowed us to win some ballgames.

Tebow inspired a team to play above and better than they all are at this point. There's a lot of youth on this team and Tim was the perfect guy to get them to believe in themselves. But the 3 losses also showed me how far Tim needs to go, if ever he is going to be a legitimate QB in the NFL. This is why i say that even if he goes into next year its not like teams wont know how to defend the option. You can only get by on one particular system for so long before you get figured out. And at some point Tim is going to have to show he can do it through the air and not just with his legs.

A perfect example is Cam Newton. While i know people like to bash Newton for being a rookie and throwing INT's those are the same people who arent really watching the kid play. I can live with losing games with Tebow at the helm, so as long as i see progression and improvement. Newton reads the field, goes through progressions, is pretty accurate, and runs when he needs too. Thats what Tim "should" be able to do, especially in his second year. But i also understand why Newton was a bonafide first rounder while Tim was taken way too high than he should of been.

And before people start blabbing about Newton's surrounding talent i need to remind them that they were worse than Denver last year, and their defense is far worse than Denver's this year. But im sure Carolina is fine taking their lumps while they build around the kid. But with Newton ive already seen the progression and improvement. The last few weeks ive seen nothing but regression from Tebow. You can keep blaming the playcalling if you makes you feel better. But, the reality is from where i stand (and judging by the comments by Fox) is that Tim cant run a real offense. That too me is a problem when the coaches dont think you can perform in a standard NFL offense.

Now, maybe going into next year that changes i dont know. But, every team dealt with the same offseason, dealt with coaching changes, etc. So it wasnt like Tebow was alone in all that. I dont think Tim shortchanged himself by doing a book tour or whatever. I know the kid worked hard but sometimes you dont become a great QB even if you work hard at it. And i think people need to prep themselves with the possibility that he may not be a starting calibur QB. Personally, depending on what happens in the offseason if Teebs cant be the man at QB i hope he does consider playing another role for the team. He has great athleticism and can easily contribute in other areas even if its not at QB.

Sorry to get long winded but needed to explain my stance. I loved the wins, dont get me wrong. It was fun and im glad to be in the playoffs but even with all that im still looking at the bigger picture and looking longterm for this team and right now im not sold that Tebow can be our guy for that. JMO

Elevation inc
01-04-2012, 01:16 PM
Not necessarily throwing it more, just maybe changing when and how.

We are a running team...That is our strength and we should limit our passing because we are better at running the ball.

However, WHEN we pass the ball should change some...mix it up a bit more on 1st and 2nd down to make the defenses guess.

HOW we pass the ball should change by finding soft spots for short gains that can set up 3rd and short where we can then go back to our strength, which is running.

We are so predictable right now...Even when we pass on 3rd and 8, the majority of our routes are 15+ yards down the field.



yep.....one play we were on a 3rd and 4 and we sent only 2 wr's out past 10 yds, and kept 2 checkdown options at the line to help 5 Ol block 4 rushers...it was sad, the throw was incomplete to i believe DT 12 yds from the LOS.....why what the fudge is the point.....we dont coach or playcall good situational football at all......for 3 quarters are 1st down is run, run, run our 2nd down is run run run, and 3rd down is pass long pass long pass long....by the time the 4th quarter rolls around our run game is either stuffed or we are playing catchup, and our pass game has no rythm or timing at all by that point

Tned
01-04-2012, 01:17 PM
I actually think with some improvement from Tebow, coupled with the addition of an elite wide reciever this offense could be very dangerous.

Imagine if we had a WR that could routinely beat single coverage...this offense could flourish.

Right now our recievers are very seldomly springing open against single man coverage, and even on the seldom occaision that they do, TT is either not finding them or just outright missing them.

If we had a legit #1 that could routinely beat his man in 1 on 1 situations, there would be a hell of a lot more than 1 or 2 chances a game to hit the big play...It would just leave a lot more room for error, IMO.

Yep. One of the reasons teams can either pressure or contain Tebow, is that they have seen that playing man on our WR's, with one safety deep for help can almost completely shut down our WRs.

NightTerror218
01-04-2012, 01:19 PM
We are VERY VERY limited by Tim. Thats the problem. If every team could just "find the soft spots andhit the 5 yard passes" all day, then there wou ld NEVER be a third day play in the NFL. The QB HAS to be the one to find those spots, know where to throw, and actually be able to put the ball on target.

The problem is that Tim's inability to throw the ball absolutely limits EVERYTHING we do on offense.

Is it Tebows fault that we pass 20% less behind LOS to 10 yards like league average? Those very accurate easy passes? Is it Tebows fault that he throws more 20+ yard passes then average? Those stats were posted yesterday in another forum. 78% of Tebows passes were behind LOS to 20 yards. Average was around 84% for most other teams with most of those being behind LOS to 10 yards.

I do think Tebow hampers the offense in the way that he is dangerous throwing in the middle of the field. He tends to overthrow when he does throw and that leads to INTs. He is inconsistent and holds onto ball to long to wait for WRs to get wide open. He seems to have no confidence right now.

Tned
01-04-2012, 01:23 PM
Indeed, but i think the reason that it hasnt is because the QB can not handle anything more. At least Fox eludes to the idea that Tebow cant run it so what exactly are they supposed to do when the QB cant run anything beyond what they are doing?

The problem with this is that run, run, throw on 3rd and 8 clearly isn't calling plays in Tebow's skill set.

I have no doubt there are plays that Tebow doesn't execute well, but then scheme in a way to help him, such as WR screens (how many of those have we seen this year, you can probably count them on two hands), some TE drags while Tebow moves on a designed rollout. Mix up the first down play calling.

I'm not saying to implement a Colt's style offense, but there is something in between what an Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady could run and what the Broncos are doing.

Look what Kubiak/Shanahan did with Plummer. He wasn't great at sitting in the pocket and scanning the field, so they used lots of play action, rolled him to one side or the other (not always the same) and gave him half the field to scan, but almost always with short, mid and deep (or at least two of those) receiving options on each play.

Elevation inc
01-04-2012, 01:28 PM
Well, for myself i need to clarify my own stance because i dont want to be lumped in with everyone else. There are a lot of qualities i like about Tebow, his leadership, fire, and passion for the game. Its undeniable how hard he works to be the best he can be. And during the winning streak i went week to week thinking he couldnt get it done and yet he did. I couldnt explain it, but now after the last 3 losses when i see the other side of the coin i can explain it. It was an aberration, a series of luck (i know, it happens to a lot of teams from time to time) that allowed us to win some ballgames.

Tebow inspired a team to play above and better than they all are at this point. There's a lot of youth on this team and Tim was the perfect guy to get them to believe in themselves. But the 3 losses also showed me how far Tim needs to go, if ever he is going to be a legitimate QB in the NFL. This is why i say that even if he goes into next year its not like teams wont know how to defend the option. You can only get by on one particular system for so long before you get figured out. And at some point Tim is going to have to show he can do it through the air and not just with his legs.

A perfect example is Cam Newton. While i know people like to bash Newton for being a rookie and throwing INT's those are the same people who arent really watching the kid play. I can live with losing games with Tebow at the helm, so as long as i see progression and improvement. Newton reads the field, goes through progressions, is pretty accurate, and runs when he needs too. Thats what Tim "should" be able to do, especially in his second year. But i also understand why Newton was a bonafide first rounder while Tim was taken way too high than he should of been.

And before people start blabbing about Newton's surrounding talent i need to remind them that they were worse than Denver last year, and their defense is far worse than Denver's this year. But im sure Carolina is fine taking their lumps while they build around the kid. But with Newton ive already seen the progression and improvement. The last few weeks ive seen nothing but regression from Tebow. You can keep blaming the playcalling if you makes you feel better. But, the reality is from where i stand (and judging by the comments by Fox) is that Tim cant run a real offense. That too me is a problem when the coaches dont think you can perform in a standard NFL offense.

Now, maybe going into next year that changes i dont know. But, every team dealt with the same offseason, dealt with coaching changes, etc. So it wasnt like Tebow was alone in all that. I dont think Tim shortchanged himself by doing a book tour or whatever. I know the kid worked hard but sometimes you dont become a great QB even if you work hard at it. And i think people need to prep themselves with the possibility that he may not be a starting calibur QB. Personally, depending on what happens in the offseason if Teebs cant be the man at QB i hope he does consider playing another role for the team. He has great athleticism and can easily contribute in other areas even if its not at QB.

Sorry to get long winded but needed to explain my stance. I loved the wins, dont get me wrong. It was fun and im glad to be in the playoffs but even with all that im still looking at the bigger picture and looking longterm for this team and right now im not sold that Tebow can be our guy for that. JMO


your stance and mine is pretty close to the same....im not so sure of a future with tebow either but i dont think he has done enough bad yet to prove he cant be it......i saw progression and regression just as i saw that with about every rookei qb the last 3 years

the fact is 14 games just isnt a good sample size....ints no excuse its fact, we dont know what will happen next year as none of us can tell the future, for christs sakes he could tear a ACL in camp or something, then its all mute anyways :lol:

bottom line is the worse he plays the less he deserves shots at proving us wrong. Thats what happened these last 3 weeks, I went from damn I cant wait till next year, to damn if its like this by game 4 next year pull the plug, start what vet we have and be done with it.

i dont think anyone should fault anyone for being on the fence about tebow....the loonies are the ones that give him no shot or say he is god....thats who i have problems with.

as for other parts of the team when you have 3 offensive players show up on gameday and perform, your execution and playcalling suck....tebow is not the only one that may not be the future.

eddie royal, Decker, DT, Walton, Beadles, Fells, Julius thomas, rosario, Willis? none of those guys has really showed up the last 3 weeks either in fact a combination of them each week was downright putrid at there job, and they are all young guys needing to prove they are the future of this team just as much as tebow is.....so when calling them out like I have done repeatedly as well as tebow....I have valid points after such poor performances by those players

this team is not all about tebow and we have many offensive players right now playing like complete crap not just tebow....its fact not excuse or fiction....

6458bird
01-04-2012, 01:51 PM
agree with many points that have been made.

given the current staff of players and coaches and their abilities, and that none of that will change by sunday, and the fact that the broncos have had a tough time scoring lately, i would hope the game plan would include some surprises.

as others have pointed out, things are pretty predictable right now. you can blame the players abilities (ie Tebow's passing deficiencies at this point), but find it hard to believe that they cannot change things up somewhat.

it's win or go home, if you aren't willing to take risks now, when will you be? what about a fake punt (raiders did this with success at least once I saw, another would have been successful if they hadn't gotten delay of game)? what about some trick plays? what about practicing onsides kicks and using them when least expected (like the Saints did to the colts in the superbowl, which essentially won the game for them)? the broncos are going to need something different and some defensive big plays (interception, forced fumble), some special teams big plays (how about a return that crosses midfield, is that too much to ask? or a blocked punt?)

if they do what they've done the past 3 weeks (and really all along since tebow was put in) it's going to be even more painful to watch than the chiefs game, and tebow will probably end up knocked out of the game.

catfish
01-04-2012, 02:01 PM
Well, for myself i need to clarify my own stance because i dont want to be lumped in with everyone else. There are a lot of qualities i like about Tebow, his leadership, fire, and passion for the game. Its undeniable how hard he works to be the best he can be. And during the winning streak i went week to week thinking he couldnt get it done and yet he did. I couldnt explain it, but now after the last 3 losses when i see the other side of the coin i can explain it. It was an aberration, a series of luck (i know, it happens to a lot of teams from time to time) that allowed us to win some ballgames.

Tebow inspired a team to play above and better than they all are at this point. There's a lot of youth on this team and Tim was the perfect guy to get them to believe in themselves. But the 3 losses also showed me how far Tim needs to go, if ever he is going to be a legitimate QB in the NFL. This is why i say that even if he goes into next year its not like teams wont know how to defend the option. You can only get by on one particular system for so long before you get figured out. And at some point Tim is going to have to show he can do it through the air and not just with his legs.

A perfect example is Cam Newton. While i know people like to bash Newton for being a rookie and throwing INT's those are the same people who arent really watching the kid play. I can live with losing games with Tebow at the helm, so as long as i see progression and improvement. Newton reads the field, goes through progressions, is pretty accurate, and runs when he needs too. Thats what Tim "should" be able to do, especially in his second year. But i also understand why Newton was a bonafide first rounder while Tim was taken way too high than he should of been.

And before people start blabbing about Newton's surrounding talent i need to remind them that they were worse than Denver last year, and their defense is far worse than Denver's this year. But im sure Carolina is fine taking their lumps while they build around the kid. But with Newton ive already seen the progression and improvement. The last few weeks ive seen nothing but regression from Tebow. You can keep blaming the playcalling if you makes you feel better. But, the reality is from where i stand (and judging by the comments by Fox) is that Tim cant run a real offense. That too me is a problem when the coaches dont think you can perform in a standard NFL offense.

Now, maybe going into next year that changes i dont know. But, every team dealt with the same offseason, dealt with coaching changes, etc. So it wasnt like Tebow was alone in all that. I dont think Tim shortchanged himself by doing a book tour or whatever. I know the kid worked hard but sometimes you dont become a great QB even if you work hard at it. And i think people need to prep themselves with the possibility that he may not be a starting calibur QB. Personally, depending on what happens in the offseason if Teebs cant be the man at QB i hope he does consider playing another role for the team. He has great athleticism and can easily contribute in other areas even if its not at QB.

Sorry to get long winded but needed to explain my stance. I loved the wins, dont get me wrong. It was fun and im glad to be in the playoffs but even with all that im still looking at the bigger picture and looking longterm for this team and right now im not sold that Tebow can be our guy for that. JMO

I dont necessarily disagree with the majority of your post, and I do think Cam is a better than Tebow hands down, but Carolina made big moves in FA to bring in talent to surround Cam in his development while denver released the only WR they had at the time with any real star power. So it is apples/oranges to say they were worse last year than Denver. Especially when you consider that their offense that was so anemic was run by our current coach. As to the quality of the D we rank 24th in scoring defense they rank 27th. If you measure by yards it is 20/28. Different sure, but not like we are talking steelers D.

I agree Tebow needs massive work, and should compete witrh a FA vet next year for the starter spot, but this team is not set up for the success of a young QB right out of the box. Shouldn't excuse as poor a showing as it has been the last 2 games though

Traveler
01-04-2012, 02:07 PM
I have no doubt there are plays that Tebow doesn't execute well, but then scheme in a way to help him, such as WR screens (how many of those have we seen this year, you can probably count them on two hands), some TE drags while Tebow moves on a designed rollout. Mix up the first down play calling.

Tned,

I agree with what you say here, but I've also read articles in the DP that state Tebow struggles with the exact type of plays you've mentioned above.

In essence, they say that his elongated throwing motion doesn't allow him to get the ball out quickly enough or with consistent accuracy.

Teams have already figured out that Tim favors passing plays to his left and gameplan accordingly.

Kind of pigeon holes them into a limited array of plays, thus the continued reliance on the run.

Put me in the camp with Northman. Really enjoyed the winning streak, but I'm still not sure Tim is the long term answer at QB for this team.

Hope the kid proves me wrong.

Northman
01-04-2012, 02:10 PM
I dont necessarily disagree with the majority of your post, and I do think Cam is a better than Tebow hands down, but Carolina made big moves in FA to bring in talent to surround Cam in his development while denver released the only WR they had at the time with any real star power. So it is apples/oranges to say they were worse last year than Denver. Especially when you consider that their offense that was so anemic was run by our current coach. As to the quality of the D we rank 24th in scoring defense they rank 27th. If you measure by yards it is 20/28. Different sure, but not like we are talking steelers D.

I agree Tebow needs massive work, and should compete witrh a FA vet next year for the starter spot, but this team is not set up for the success of a young QB right out of the box. Shouldn't excuse as poor a showing as it has been the last 2 games though

Well again, im not saying i was expecting a 13-3 season. Hell, 8-8 was above and beyond what i thought we would get. But, its just the on field improvement im really more concerned about. Thus far, the Minny game was the best ive seen from Tebow in terms of his decision making and playmaking ability. That to me is the things i want to see on a consistent basis. Its not so much about the wins as i know overall the team is trying to gel and get experience. But the last 3 weeks have shown him going in reverse and that is troubling to me.

claymore
01-04-2012, 02:17 PM
Well, for myself i need to clarify my own stance because i dont want to be lumped in with everyone else. There are a lot of qualities i like about Tebow, his leadership, fire, and passion for the game. Its undeniable how hard he works to be the best he can be. And during the winning streak i went week to week thinking he couldnt get it done and yet he did. I couldnt explain it, but now after the last 3 losses when i see the other side of the coin i can explain it. It was an aberration, a series of luck (i know, it happens to a lot of teams from time to time) that allowed us to win some ballgames.

Tebow inspired a team to play above and better than they all are at this point. There's a lot of youth on this team and Tim was the perfect guy to get them to believe in themselves. But the 3 losses also showed me how far Tim needs to go, if ever he is going to be a legitimate QB in the NFL. This is why i say that even if he goes into next year its not like teams wont know how to defend the option. You can only get by on one particular system for so long before you get figured out. And at some point Tim is going to have to show he can do it through the air and not just with his legs.

A perfect example is Cam Newton. While i know people like to bash Newton for being a rookie and throwing INT's those are the same people who arent really watching the kid play. I can live with losing games with Tebow at the helm, so as long as i see progression and improvement. Newton reads the field, goes through progressions, is pretty accurate, and runs when he needs too. Thats what Tim "should" be able to do, especially in his second year. But i also understand why Newton was a bonafide first rounder while Tim was taken way too high than he should of been.

And before people start blabbing about Newton's surrounding talent i need to remind them that they were worse than Denver last year, and their defense is far worse than Denver's this year. But im sure Carolina is fine taking their lumps while they build around the kid. But with Newton ive already seen the progression and improvement. The last few weeks ive seen nothing but regression from Tebow. You can keep blaming the playcalling if you makes you feel better. But, the reality is from where i stand (and judging by the comments by Fox) is that Tim cant run a real offense. That too me is a problem when the coaches dont think you can perform in a standard NFL offense.

Now, maybe going into next year that changes i dont know. But, every team dealt with the same offseason, dealt with coaching changes, etc. So it wasnt like Tebow was alone in all that. I dont think Tim shortchanged himself by doing a book tour or whatever. I know the kid worked hard but sometimes you dont become a great QB even if you work hard at it. And i think people need to prep themselves with the possibility that he may not be a starting calibur QB. Personally, depending on what happens in the offseason if Teebs cant be the man at QB i hope he does consider playing another role for the team. He has great athleticism and can easily contribute in other areas even if its not at QB.

Sorry to get long winded but needed to explain my stance. I loved the wins, dont get me wrong. It was fun and im glad to be in the playoffs but even with all that im still looking at the bigger picture and looking longterm for this team and right now im not sold that Tebow can be our guy for that. JMO

Great post. Its how I feel exactly. The wins were fun. But I think it was bad for the long term success of the Broncos. Only because I want A. Luck.

catfish
01-04-2012, 02:23 PM
Well again, im not saying i was expecting a 13-3 season. Hell, 8-8 was above and beyond what i thought we would get. But, its just the on field improvement im really more concerned about. Thus far, the Minny game was the best ive seen from Tebow in terms of his decision making and playmaking ability. That to me is the things i want to see on a consistent basis. Its not so much about the wins as i know overall the team is trying to gel and get experience. But the last 3 weeks have shown him going in reverse and that is troubling to me.

From what I recall all the analysts were calliung the NE game the game that he most looked like a QB, it was a loss, but Tebow's arm was not the reason that game was lost. My biggest concern right now isn't his passing it is actually the damn fumbles. He doesn't fumble that ball against KC they win the game.

edit: now I am curious how the passing performances correspond to quality of corners on opposing Defenses. Buffalo and KC have pretty good secondaries do they not? Perhaps teams that are able to keep up 1 on 1 man to man are the problem

NightTerror218
01-04-2012, 02:27 PM
Well again, im not saying i was expecting a 13-3 season. Hell, 8-8 was above and beyond what i thought we would get. But, its just the on field improvement im really more concerned about. Thus far, the Minny game was the best ive seen from Tebow in terms of his decision making and playmaking ability. That to me is the things i want to see on a consistent basis. Its not so much about the wins as i know overall the team is trying to gel and get experience. But the last 3 weeks have shown him going in reverse and that is troubling to me.

Many "experts/analysis" say that Tebow had a better game against the Pats. But the defense could not slow them down.

NightTerror218
01-04-2012, 02:29 PM
Great post. Its how I feel exactly. The wins were fun. But I think it was bad for the long term success of the Broncos. Only because I want A. Luck.

And clay LUCK WILL NEVER BE A BRONCO....EVER

quicker you understand the better it will be for you. We do not have the draft picks to afford him. This team has too many holes and we can not afford to lose some players we already have.

Northman
01-04-2012, 02:30 PM
From what I recall all the analysts were calliung the NE game the game that he most looked like a QB, it was a loss, but Tebow's arm was not the reason that game was lost. My biggest concern right now isn't his passing it is actually the damn fumbles. He doesn't fumble that ball against KC they win the game.

Well, i dont pin the NE loss squarely on his chest as it seems our defense didnt know who Gronk and Hernandez were in real life. And fricking Cosby, jesus, dont get me started. But, yea the turnovers are troubling but also is his tentativeness again. He's starting to pick back up old habits from when he first started this season.

Nick
01-04-2012, 02:31 PM
He needs to pull the trigger... That was hard to watch. Tebow saw wide open receivers and never threw the dang ball.

NightTerror218
01-04-2012, 02:31 PM
I dont know if half the people here who are bitching but we are in the playoffs. Enjoy the ******* ride and be happy.

Northman
01-04-2012, 02:32 PM
Many "experts/analysis" say that Tebow had a better game against the Pats. But the defense could not slow them down.

Stat wise maybe, but im talking about the whole package from what i saw. Specifically for me was the rollout and pass to DT for a TD. That play said a lot to me in his potential. But since then i have not seen that playmaker on the field.

catfish
01-04-2012, 02:32 PM
He needs to pull the trigger... That was hard to watch. Tebow saw wide open receivers and never threw the dang ball.

agree, decisiveness is important...Elway seemed to have the right outlook on it

TimHippo
01-04-2012, 02:51 PM
Unleash . . .

TimHippo
01-04-2012, 02:58 PM
And clay LUCK WILL NEVER BE A BRONCO....EVER

quicker you understand the better it will be for you. We do not have the draft picks to afford him. This team has too many holes and we can not afford to lose some players we already have.

You would need to have at least this year's 4th pick in the draft which the Broncos are nowhere near close to.

Luck would demand more than Eli Manning and this is what the Giants had to give up for Manning.
Manning-Rivers Trade.

1st pick (Manning) in draft for 4th pick in draft (Rivers) + 3rd round pick and 1st & 5th in the following draft.

On top of that McDummy traded away everything of value and left the cupboard bare. Von Miller's probably the only tradeable asset in a trade for Luck.

nevcraw
01-04-2012, 03:06 PM
whether Tebow fails at this game or not will not make or break his career.. Tired of reading psoters writing off the kid based on 3/4's of season. go back and look over the careers of many great QB's there was plenty of failure in there career before it all clicked.. Tebow's book will not be written after this weekend one way or the other.. and if Elway decides to dump him now that still will not make or sink Tebow the QB.
All you kneejerk arm chair QB scouts make me laugh...
But I agree he need to pull the trigger a bit earlier and lead his recievers.. Alrhough we sure did stay in lot more games than before because he did not just let her rip.. bit of a doubled edge sword.

TXBRONC
01-04-2012, 03:11 PM
whether Tebow fails at this game or not will not make or break his career.. Tired of reading psoters writing off the kid based on 3/4's of season. go back and look over the careers of many great QB's there was plenty of failure in there career before it all clicked.. Tebow's book will not be written after this weekend one way or the other.. and if Elway decides to dump him now that still will not make or sink Tebow the QB.
All you kneejerk arm chair QB scouts make me laugh...
But I agree he need to pull the trigger a bit earlier and lead his recievers.. Alrhough we sure did stay in lot more games than before because he did not just let her rip.. bit of a doubled edge sword.

That's true Nev but our opponents have adjusted to what Tebow likes to do so now he's got adjust/overcome what opposing defenses are doing to him.

broncobryce
01-04-2012, 03:16 PM
Tebow will start next season. He determines if he finishes the season. I say he will.

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TimHippo
01-04-2012, 03:18 PM
That's true Nev but our opponents have adjusted to what Tebow likes to do so now he's got adjust/overcome what opposing defenses are doing to him.

I think that's an exaggeration that the media keeps parroting.

The only real adjustment i see defenses making is that they are going for the strip instead of the tackle on Tebow on running plays.

Other then that they are playing about the same. It's just that the Broncos defense has evaporated in the Pats and Bills games.

The Chiefs game was still winnable and if Tebow had come back to win it, then it would have been like the other comebacks. The Kuper injury hurt and then the play calling at the end was weird. They didn't go to the spread till it was too late and also the punt call by Fox was dumb because by the time we got the ball back there was no time left to score a touchdown.

Northman
01-04-2012, 03:18 PM
whether Tebow fails at this game or not will not make or break his career.. Tired of reading psoters writing off the kid based on 3/4's of season. go back and look over the careers of many great QB's there was plenty of failure in there career before it all clicked.. Tebow's book will not be written after this weekend one way or the other.. and if Elway decides to dump him now that still will not make or sink Tebow the QB.
All you kneejerk arm chair QB scouts make me laugh...
But I agree he need to pull the trigger a bit earlier and lead his recievers.. Alrhough we sure did stay in lot more games than before because he did not just let her rip.. bit of a doubled edge sword.

Settle down Nev, its just people's opinion. And for the record, there are plenty of QB's who stunk or started out well and failed. While Tebow's legacy has yet to be written it can go either way.

TimHippo
01-04-2012, 03:19 PM
Settle down Nev, its just people's opinion. And for the record, there are plenty of QB's who stunk or started out well and failed. While Tebow's legacy has yet to be written it can go either way.

Tebow did get them to the playoffs though. You cant' take that away from him. It's something Mark Sanchez, Tony Homo, Phillip Rivers, Carson Palmer were unable to do this year.

Northman
01-04-2012, 03:21 PM
Tebow did get them to the playoffs though. You cant' take that away from him. It's something Mark Sanchez, Tony Homo, Phillip Rivers, Carson Palmer were unable to do this year.


Yet, all were able to do in the last few years. Im not sure where you were trying to go with this.

BroncoJoe
01-04-2012, 03:22 PM
It's really something when a guy who has been lurking for a very long time finally makes an account just to tell you to shut up.

I think I love you.

TimHippo
01-04-2012, 03:25 PM
Yet, all were able to do in the last few years. Im not sure where you were trying to go with this.

You said Tebow's legacy hasn't even been written yet. Yet he's already led them to the playoff (pronounced with Jim Mora's cackle) something McDummy was not able to do in his tenure.

Northman
01-04-2012, 03:27 PM
You said Tebow's legacy hasn't even been written yet. Yet he's already led them to the playoff (pronounced with Jim Mora's cackle) something McDummy was not able to do in his tenure.

Not sure what McD has to do with this but um ok. Guess what, Derek Anderson lead the Browns to the playoffs once too. We caught a lot of breaks this year. Even the sun shines on a monkeys ass every once in a while, it doesnt mean that Tim is a great QB,. :lol:

TXBRONC
01-04-2012, 03:28 PM
I think that's an exaggeration that the media keeps parroting.

The only real adjustment i see defenses making is that they are going for the strip instead of the tackle on Tebow on running plays.

Other then that they are playing about the same. It's just that the Broncos defense has evaporated in the Pats and Bills games.

The Chiefs game was still winnable and if Tebow had come back to win it, then it would have been like the other comebacks. The Kuper injury hurt and then the play calling at the end was weird. They didn't go to the spread till it was too late and also the punt call by Fox was dumb because by the time we got the ball back there was no time left to score a touchdown.

If you think it's an exaggeration then you haven't watching the games. Our opponents are not rushing him as hard. They're keeping him the pocket and challenging him to make throws against man coverage and he is struggling to do so. That is a fact.

I'll give you Patriot game but the Bills game you wrong. Tebow threw four picks two were taken back for touchdowns.

No Kuper's injury hurt the play calling . We still ran the effectively. The Broncos put up over 200 yards rushing. It's debatable whether or not the punt at the end of the first half was dumb.

nevcraw
01-04-2012, 03:30 PM
Settle down Nev, its just people's opinion. And for the record, there are plenty of QB's who stunk or started out well and failed. While Tebow's legacy has yet to be written it can go either way.

I'm settled damnit ;-)

It just that we ride these waves of suck and then awesome and then suck every week (getting tired of the kneejerk negativity without much logic). The uneven play should be expected for a totally rebuilding team with young players in almost every position and missing one of the best safeties in the league.
As far as Tebow It's not like He's a 4th year pro-replacing Rodgers and a team stocked with Probowlers at every position.
Tebow has shown flashes of brilliance and areas needed for improvement. Logic tells me if he can do it under the most crucial pressure ala to win a game he can do it at the other times too. It just make take more time than some of you are willing to give (3/4's of season) to get there..

nevcraw
01-04-2012, 03:33 PM
Yet, all were able to do in the last few years. Im not sure where you were trying to go with this.

only sanchez did it as newbie..

Northman
01-04-2012, 03:34 PM
only sanchez did it as newbie..

Indeed. And many said it was because of the team an not him.

Northman
01-04-2012, 03:35 PM
Although wait, didnt Big Ben get to the playoffs his first year? I cant remember.

BroncoJoe
01-04-2012, 03:36 PM
Although wait, didnt Big Ben get to the playoffs his first year? I cant remember.

AFC Championship - lost to NE

NightTerror218
01-04-2012, 03:37 PM
Although wait, didnt Big Ben get to the playoffs his first year? I cant remember.

dunno, but Flacco did

TXBRONC
01-04-2012, 03:37 PM
Although wait, didnt Big Ben get to the playoffs his first year? I cant remember.

Yep he did and in fact I'm pretty sure he got all the way to the AFC Championship game.

Poet
01-04-2012, 03:38 PM
Although wait, didnt Big Ben get to the playoffs his first year? I cant remember.

God yes, they were 13-3 or 14-2. He average under 15 passing attempts a game, half of which were play action passing.

Flacco, Roethlisberger and Sanchez all contributed absolutely zero and made the playoffs their rookie years. All three had elite defenses.

I'm not sure how disrespecting the other QB's like ****nuts does makes any sense though.

Romo has made the playoffs several times, as has Palmer and Rivers. All three of them are superior quarterbacks as well.

Hope you guys leave the Steelers in a puddle of rape tears.

TXBRONC
01-04-2012, 03:47 PM
God yes, they were 13-3 or 14-2. He average under 15 passing attempts a game, half of which were play action passing.

Flacco, Roethlisberger and Sanchez all contributed absolutely zero and made the playoffs their rookie years. All three had elite defenses.

I'm not sure how disrespecting the other QB's like ****nuts does makes any sense though.

Romo has made the playoffs several times, as has Palmer and Rivers. All three of them are superior quarterbacks as well.

Hope you guys leave the Steelers in a puddle of rape tears.

They went 15-1.

Northman
01-04-2012, 03:48 PM
Hope you guys leave the Steelers in a puddle of rape tears.

I almost fell out of my chair laughing so hard from that one King. :lol:

rcsodak
01-04-2012, 04:00 PM
Great article.

I want Tebow to fail too. Since I believe that you must first fail to learn to succeed.
Well....pretty sure he's mastered that part. ;')

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rcsodak
01-04-2012, 04:02 PM
If they want to win they will have to take the reins off a bit.

They will have less of a chance of winning if they don't open it up some and allow TT to at least have a chance to succeed.

Of course, he might fail miserably if they let him throw more on early downs, but I would like to see this team at least go down swinging as opposed to hoping for another unlikely late game miracle.
The more passes, the more chances of int's, the more chances for Pitt having the ball more, the more chances for a Pitt blowout.

Yep....let 'er rip. :rollseyes:

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rcsodak
01-04-2012, 04:05 PM
I don't think Elway necessarily means throwing more what he means don't hesistate when you have the opportunity to throw.

I'd rather see more 5yd runs (forward) vs him holding onto the ball and taking 15yd sacks.

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rcsodak
01-04-2012, 04:11 PM
I believe there's another side to that coin though...

As you said, we hope that TT improves, that much is obvious.

But the other side of the coin is that as we get more and more film on how teams are defending us, we will be able to make adjustments of our own.

As McCoy said earlier this year, it makes it tough to gameplan offensively because no other teams run the type of offense we do, therefore we have no idea how defenses will choose to defend us.

Now that there is a blueprint out there that teams have seemed to copy ever since we got Belichick'd, we now have a pretty good idea of how teams will play us and now adjustments can be made.

Its up to the coaches to figure it out, and up to TT and the rest of the team to execute it.
They played KC a 2nd time.

How'd that turn out?

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Denver Native (Carol)
01-04-2012, 04:12 PM
On a side note, Klatt and Evans are actually putting on a pretty decent show in the morning. He was pretty critical after the game, but today him and Evans were just going off about how they were confident the Broncos would win Sunday. Still no Vic and Gary, but its probably gonna be my new morning show since Mike and Mike is on 102.3 now...

I agree. As a side note, Elway, McCaffrey, Sharpe are still on 102.3, with time changes. Here is the day/time they are on, listed under shows.

http://www.denverssportsstation.com/

I am still hoping that Vic and Gary land somewhere on the radio, as they are my favorites.

rcsodak
01-04-2012, 04:12 PM
Hey Zam, if you knew nothing about Elway, Elway's rookie season was this year, and he played with the same numbers he did in his rookie season, would you say the same thing?

For ****s sake Zam, you say you have been a fan of the Broncos since their inception, out of all people, I would expect you to show some patience. Yet you continue to show the composure of a meth addict trying to score their next bump.
Elway had the forward pass perfected before he got drafted, tho.

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rcsodak
01-04-2012, 04:17 PM
I actually think with some improvement from Tebow, coupled with the addition of an elite wide reciever this offense could be very dangerous.

Imagine if we had a WR that could routinely beat single coverage...this offense could flourish.

Right now our recievers are very seldomly springing open against single man coverage, and even on the seldom occaision that they do, TT is either not finding them or just outright missing them.

If we had a legit #1 that could routinely beat his man in 1 on 1 situations, there would be a hell of a lot more than 1 or 2 chances a game to hit the big play...It would just leave a lot more room for error, IMO.

If he's "not finding them", or "outright missing them', why would any wr think it'd be any different with them?

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Ravage!!!
01-04-2012, 04:20 PM
We NEED to get lucky with Special teams and/or defense scoring in order to compete in this game. Thats the only way we've been able to compete on any of the other wins.

rcsodak
01-04-2012, 04:24 PM
Not necessarily throwing it more, just maybe changing when and how.

We are a running team...That is our strength and we should limit our passing because we are better at running the ball.

However, WHEN we pass the ball should change some...mix it up a bit more on 1st and 2nd down to make the defenses guess.

HOW we pass the ball should change by finding soft spots for short gains that can set up 3rd and short where we can then go back to our strength, which is running.

We are so predictable right now...Even when we pass on 3rd and 8, the majority of our routes are 15+ yards down the field.
The main object of any defense is to make an offense 1 dimensional.
Thats already been accomplished before the flip of the coin.
Plus, once in the playoffs, only passing teams tend to get very far (note last 2 sb's).
You simply have to be able to rush when you need to...but not visa versa.

When was the last SB champ that was strictly a running team?

If you cant pass, you fail.

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rcsodak
01-04-2012, 04:56 PM
You would need to have at least this year's 4th pick in the draft which the Broncos are nowhere near close to.

Luck would demand more than Eli Manning and this is what the Giants had to give up for Manning.
Manning-Rivers Trade.

1st pick (Manning) in draft for 4th pick in draft (Rivers) + 3rd round pick and 1st & 5th in the following draft.

On top of that McDummy traded away everything of value and left the cupboard bare. Von Miller's probably the only tradeable asset in a trade for Luck.
It would take even more. Simply because of the new structured salaries of the top draftees.
Theyre not setting teams back 10's of million$ like they used to.

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vandammage13
01-04-2012, 05:08 PM
I dont necessarily disagree with the majority of your post, and I do think Cam is a better than Tebow hands down, but Carolina made big moves in FA to bring in talent to surround Cam in his development while denver released the only WR they had at the time with any real star power. So it is apples/oranges to say they were worse last year than Denver. Especially when you consider that their offense that was so anemic was run by our current coach. As to the quality of the D we rank 24th in scoring defense they rank 27th. If you measure by yards it is 20/28. Different sure, but not like we are talking steelers D.

I agree Tebow needs massive work, and should compete witrh a FA vet next year for the starter spot, but this team is not set up for the success of a young QB right out of the box. Shouldn't excuse as poor a showing as it has been the last 2 games though

Correct...the Panthers did upgrade by adding 2 proven TE's (Olsen, Shockey) to their roster, coupled with a legitimate #1 WR in Steve Smith.

Leaving wins/losses out of the equation, I think it is clear that Newton is much better at this point, but Newton also has 3 proven security blankets in those guys mentioned above, while Tebow has exactly 0 proven recieving options.

I highly doubt TT would have put up the kind of statistical season that Newton has if he were to have those same weapons, but I don't think its that far-reaching to think that TT would have done much better than he has thus far with a comparable offensive supporting cast.

vandammage13
01-04-2012, 05:16 PM
The more passes, the more chances of int's, the more chances for Pitt having the ball more, the more chances for a Pitt blowout.

Yep....let 'er rip. :rollseyes:

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I stated previously that I'm not looking for more attempts, just be smarter about the timing of their playcalling and the type of routes they are running. We are obviously much better at running then passing, so stick with what you do best, but that doesn't mean you should only run 20 yard patterns on 3rd and 8.


The main object of any defense is to make an offense 1 dimensional.
Thats already been accomplished before the flip of the coin.
Plus, once in the playoffs, only passing teams tend to get very far (note last 2 sb's).
You simply have to be able to rush when you need to...but not visa versa.

When was the last SB champ that was strictly a running team?

If you cant pass, you fail.

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Steelers (at least their first one with Big Ben), Ravens, Bucs...That's three in the last 10 years.


They played KC a 2nd time.

How'd that turn out?

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KC played them differently the first time around (as evidence by TT's big rushing yards)...The copied the Belichick model the second time.


If he's "not finding them", or "outright missing them', why would any wr think it'd be any different with them?

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Because he's a 1st year starter, and there is potential for improvement....

silkamilkamonico
01-04-2012, 05:40 PM
Because he's a 1st year starter, and there is potential for improvement....

When do we see the "improvement"? Or is it fair to say we have seen improvement, followed by regression?

You can look at it either way.

Tebow has looked the absolute worst he has ever looked as a passer the last 3+ weeks and even longer.

catfish
01-04-2012, 05:42 PM
That's true Nev but our opponents have adjusted to what Tebow likes to do so now he's got adjust/overcome what opposing defenses are doing to him.

I'm going to say that the team needs to figure out the blueprint that has shut doen the entire offense. Teams are putting 9 in the box, playing 1 on 1 man coverage against a 2 wide receiver look and daring them to beat the DB. Until the receiver get enough seperation consistlently, the qb hits them when they do spring free and the line holds up on a 4 man rush with basically 4 spies noone is going to change

vandammage13
01-04-2012, 05:45 PM
When do we see the "improvement"? Or is it fair to say we have seen improvement, followed by regression?

You can look at it either way.

Tebow has looked the absolute worst he has ever looked as a passer the last 3+ weeks and even longer.

Ups and downs are the norm for most young QBs...

Those seeking instant gratification on a guy who was supposed to be a 3 year project are probably looking in the wrong place.

Developing a QB takes time more often than not.

Elevation inc
01-04-2012, 05:47 PM
tired of this drama over tebow and people acting like he is the only reason....shit gets real old when other players on offense are doing just as poor at there position as tebow has at qb the last 3 weeks

Elevation inc
01-04-2012, 05:48 PM
Ups and downs are the norm for most young QBs...

Those seeking instant gratification on a guy who was supposed to be a 3 year project are probably looking in the wrong place.

Developing a QB takes time more often than not.




well your just wrong any qb in denver as a rookie has to avg 300 yds a game and throw 3 td's a game it dont happen ship him out :lol:

NightTerror218
01-04-2012, 05:51 PM
When do we see the "improvement"? Or is it fair to say we have seen improvement, followed by regression?

You can look at it either way.

Tebow has looked the absolute worst he has ever looked as a passer the last 3+ weeks and even longer.

You see improvement the longer he is in the league and playing. Like every other young QB. He is not going to be ******* Elway in his first starting season with some real coaching. Jesus Christ that is all you people complain about is that he is not 60% completions, 40 TDs, 0 Ints and looking like a HOF QB out of the shoot.

He was known to be a project QB. He needs more coaching then most QBs just because he has horrible mechanics and slower release. I would think that with a reason off season with a QB he can improve, just how much we will see. But it if absolutely ridiculous for you people to bash him for playing like a young QB does when first starting in the league. Compare him to Bradford/McCoy/Newton/Gabbert/Ponder/Dalton who are all making huge mistakes and not polished. Stop comparing him to the "Duke" and other top notch QBs. He is nowhere close to their ball park. Next season coming into his 3rd season he should be able to start competing with QBs like Freeman/Smith/Fitzpartick/Flacco and other middle of the road QBs.

I will not tote that he did not get enough work last season because he did get some. But he is also learning a new system that is constantly changing. He did fall behind not having a coach to work with last off season because he did not work on his flaws. Look at how Culter played 2 years ago in Chicago with a new system. It takes time in a system to get it down and timing.

NightTerror218
01-04-2012, 05:52 PM
Ups and downs are the norm for most young QBs...

Those seeking instant gratification on a guy who was supposed to be a 3 year project are probably looking in the wrong place.

Developing a QB takes time more often than not.

BTW who is developing Tebow as QB coach? A WR coach from last year?

Elevation inc
01-04-2012, 05:55 PM
BTW who is developing Tebow as QB coach? A WR coach from last year?

yeah but its no excuse all teams do that with young 2nd year qb's :lol:

catfish
01-04-2012, 05:55 PM
tired of this drama over tebow and people acting like he is the only reason....shit gets real old when other players on offense are doing just as poor at there position as tebow has at qb the last 3 weeks

the only comment I will mak on receivers is this. If you have the game on DVR go watch Bowe vs man coverage by Champ. That is the seperation I am looking for. If someone can get that much space against one of the all time best in the game, there is no reason we should be talking about half a step especially if we are running route 15 yards downfield.

silkamilkamonico
01-04-2012, 05:59 PM
Ups and downs are the norm for most young QBs...

Those seeking instant gratification on a guy who was supposed to be a 3 year project are probably looking in the wrong place.

Developing a QB takes time more often than not.

If this is the case Tebow simply should not be playing now.

13 for 29?
6 for 22?

He should be sitting his ass on the bench, along with other "projects" like Blaine Gabbert.

Andy Dalton is a young QB who is showing imporvement. He has also been in the league less than Tebow, and was not even drafted in the first round like Tebow was. He is also better than Tebow already.

silkamilkamonico
01-04-2012, 06:05 PM
You see improvement the longer he is in the league and playing. Like every other young QB. He is not going to be ******* Elway in his first starting season with some real coaching. Jesus Christ that is all you people complain about is that he is not 60% completions, 40 TDs, 0 Ints and looking like a HOF QB out of the shoot.

This is very debatable. We can only hope he shows improvement. he hasn't shown any ounce of improvement in his 2 years in the NFL, and the more games he seems to play the worse he seems to get at passing. There isn't even a level of upward progression like there is with guys like Dalton.

If Tim Tebow was a rookie the year Elway was, he would be completeling less than 20% of his passes. Could you imagine Tebow trying to complete passes in windows smaller than a Honda? Because that's what it was like Elway's rookie season when defenders were allowed to basically rape the WR's.

Tim Tebow cannot even complete 50% of his passes under the most friendly passing rules.

That is sad.


He was known to be a project QB. He needs more coaching then most QBs just because he has horrible mechanics and slower release. I would think that with a reason off season with a QB he can improve, just how much we will see. But it if absolutely ridiculous for you people to bash him for playing like a young QB does when first starting in the league. Compare him to Bradford/McCoy/Newton/Gabbert/Ponder/Dalton who are all making huge mistakes and not polished. Stop comparing him to the "Duke" and other top notch QBs. He is nowhere close to their ball park. Next season coming into his 3rd season he should be able to start competing with QBs like Freeman/Smith/Fitzpartick/Flacco and other middle of the road QBs.

I will not tote that he did not get enough work last season because he did get some. But he is also learning a new system that is constantly changing. He did fall behind not having a coach to work with last off season because he did not work on his flaws. Look at how Culter played 2 years ago in Chicago with a new system. It takes time in a system to get it down and timing.

Correct. Which is why he should be sitting on he bench along with guys like Gabbert. Meanwhile, Dalton should be playing.

Can we trade Tebow for Dalton? I would straight up and give some also.

Elevation inc
01-04-2012, 06:06 PM
the only comment I will mak on receivers is this. If you have the game on DVR go watch Bowe vs man coverage by Champ. That is the seperation I am looking for. If someone can get that much space against one of the all time best in the game, there is no reason we should be talking about half a step especially if we are running route 15 yards downfield.



you aint gotta convice me :lol: im damn near red in the face bitching about the whole offense and not just tebow.....I have said for weeks we have piss poor route runners who cant seperate or beat a jam for shit.....combine that with a qb playing like crap, TE's and a OL that cant beat 4 down lineman with 6 bodies on the OL and poor execution and shitty situational playcalling, well you have our crappy offense in a nutshell as of late

catfish
01-04-2012, 06:13 PM
If this is the case Tebow simply should not be playing now.

13 for 29?
6 for 22?

He should be sitting his ass on the bench, along with other "projects" like Blaine Gabbert.

Andy Dalton is a young QB who is showing imporvement. He has also been in the league less than Tebow, and was not even drafted in the first round like Tebow was. He is also better than Tebow already.

the splits between those 2 are closer than you might think(comp% / avg yds by distance) the only signifigant difference is between 11-20 yards, where he is more accurate than tebow by 9%, the rest are 1-2% ish he just tends to throw a much higher number of short passes, which is why although he has a much higher comp% his ypa is only .2 yds higher

silkamilkamonico
01-04-2012, 06:19 PM
the splits between those 2 are closer than you might think(comp% / avg yds by distance) the only signifigant difference is between 11-20 yards, where he is more accurate than tebow by 9%, the rest are 1-2% ish he just tends to throw a much higher number of short passes, which is why although he has a much higher comp% his ypa is only .2 yds higher

The splits between what?

Ag yards per distant is not an important stat. Completion % is. In avg. per pass, Tebow is among the bottom, sandwiched between Mark Sanchez and Curtis Painter.

Any QB could throw the ball downfield the majority of the game, complete a very low % of passes, and inflate their agv per distant with 3-4 big yard catches. In the end, it doesn't amount to much of an offense at all, just like the Denver Broncos.

catfish
01-04-2012, 06:25 PM
The splits between what?

Ag yards per distant is not an important stat. Completion % is. In avg. per pass, Tebow is among the bottom, sandwiched between Mark Sanchez and Curtis Painter.

Any QB could throw the ball downfield the majority of the game, complete a very low % of passes, and inflate their agv per distant with 3-4 big yard catches. In the end, it doesn't amount to much of an offense at all, just like the Denver Broncos.

its average yads per attempt, meaning a qb get punished for incomplete passes. if he throws 9 incomplete and 1 for 50 yds it only 5 yds per attempt. It is a more accurate basis of QB skill as it takes into account difficulty of throw. Seeing as how it is not as easy to throw the ball 20 yds as it is to hit a screen pass it is a much better gauge than knowing that a qb hits 60% of his passes, but not knowing whetehr the are screen passes that go for 3 yds or 15 yard slant routes that go for 20.

If you look up splits it will show you the % completion at different passing ranges for these 2. it breaks it up in 10 yard increments and has the avg yardage per attempt as well. I can link if you would like to take a look. It lets you know what range a QB is hitting well, and where not so much. Also gives you the ability to adjust for distance if 1 qb is throwing 70% of his passes within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage, and another is throwing only 50% that distance you can adjust for distance

Elevation inc
01-04-2012, 06:31 PM
The splits between what?

Ag yards per distant is not an important stat. Completion % is. In avg. per pass, Tebow is among the bottom, sandwiched between Mark Sanchez and Curtis Painter.

Any QB could throw the ball downfield the majority of the game, complete a very low % of passes, and inflate their agv per distant with 3-4 big yard catches. In the end, it doesn't amount to much of an offense at all, just like the Denver Broncos.

YPA is actually a very big factor in evaluating a QB

silkamilkamonico
01-04-2012, 06:34 PM
Tebow's ypq is 6.4, right in the mix of all the other WR's that organizations are looking to replace.

The ones in there with exceptions are Bradford for obvious reasons, Andy dalton and arguably Joe Flacco.

Let's take this one step further and look at 3rd down stat between those QB's. Does anyone have any? I know at one time Tebow had some of the worst 3rd down stats in the history of the NFL.

silkamilkamonico
01-04-2012, 06:34 PM
YPA is actually a very big factor in evaluating a QB

I will agree, and look at the fact that Tebow is 26th in the NFL in this stat, which is not very good at all.

catfish
01-04-2012, 06:41 PM
Tebow's ypq is 6.4, right in the mix of all the other WR's that organizations are looking to replace.

The ones in there with exceptions are Bradford for obvious reasons, Andy dalton and arguably Joe Flacco.

Let's take this one step further and look at 3rd down stat between those QB's. Does anyone have any? I know at one time Tebow had some of the worst 3rd down stats in the history of the NFL.

3rd and less than 6 tebow 17 attempts 47.5% completion rate dalton 57 attempt 56% completion rate

3rd and greater than 6 Tebow 57 attempts 45.6% completion rate 97 attempts 47.4%

so 62% of Daltons 3rd down attempt are 3rd and long, while 77% of tebows attempts are the same

Elevation inc
01-04-2012, 06:43 PM
I will agree, and look at the fact that Tebow is 26th in the NFL in this stat, which is not very good at all.




look at that list objectively though and you can clearly see its not just becasue tim tebow cant throw.....you have guys with 450 attempts and 5000 yds on there......


but I know as well as most he has to get better there, just like all young qb's do.....

silkamilkamonico
01-04-2012, 06:43 PM
Astounding. Now if Tebow could break 20 points more than 1 every 4 games people might start buying into him as an "improving passer".

catfish
01-04-2012, 06:44 PM
I will agree, and look at the fact that Tebow is 26th in the NFL in this stat, which is not very good at all.

I agree, but he is in line with other 2nd year and rookie players, with the exception of Cam Newton(who is just ridiculous). I don't think anyone is saying Tebow is playing well, only that his play is not out of the ordinary for a young player. He definately needs to improve to continue to start, but the sky isn't falling either

silkamilkamonico
01-04-2012, 06:46 PM
look at that list objectively though and you can clearly see its not just becasue tim tebow cant throw.....you have guys with 450 attempts and 5000 yds on there......


but I know as well as most he has to get better there, just like all young qb's do.....

I honestly cannot get past the fact that Tebow is completing 46.5% of his passes. That is so terribly bad.

Elevation inc
01-04-2012, 06:49 PM
I will agree, and look at the fact that Tebow is 26th in the NFL in this stat, which is not very good at all.



also not a single player on that nfl.com list avg less than 25 att per game except tebow.....more attempts means more chance for bigger plays to bring you YPA up.....in fact the next qb avgs like 5 attempts more a game than tebow and thats matt moore:lol:

silkamilkamonico
01-04-2012, 06:49 PM
Tim Tebow is currently ranked 33, out of 33 QB's who qualify for completion percentage. He is the only QB on the list who isn't completing at least 50%. What's worse is Tebow is 3.5% points behind the 32nd ranked completion %, Blaine Gabbert.

46.5%. In the most pass friendly NFL that it has ever been.

That is just a ridiculous number.

NightTerror218
01-04-2012, 06:49 PM
I honestly cannot get past the fact that Tebow is completing 46.5% of his passes. That is so terribly bad.

Can you wrap your mind around 20 passes with 6 throw aways a game? That is 27% of his passes.

Same goes with the game with 4 dropped passes is 20%. Since he throws so little those little things add up so fast.

NightTerror218
01-04-2012, 06:50 PM
Tim Tebow is currently ranked 33, out of 33 QB's who qualify for completion percentage. He is the only QB on the list who isn't completing at least 50%. What's worse is Tebow is 3.5% points behind the 32nd ranked completion %, Blaine Gabbert.

46.5%. In the most pass friendly NFL that it has ever been.

That is just a ridiculous number.

But you wont compare him to other rookie and 2nd year QBs why is that? Because he is stream line stat wise with them except lower competition percentage.

silkamilkamonico
01-04-2012, 06:51 PM
also not a single player on that nfl.com list avg less than 25 att per game except tebow.....more attempts means more chance for bigger plays to bring you YPA up.....in fact the next qb avgs like 5 attempts more a game than tebow and thats matt moore:lol:

Could you imagine how ugly his stats would be if he was throwing the ball 25 times a game? 46.5% completion at 25 times a game?

How bad would his completion % be if he didn't have the luxury of passing against the prevent defense where his stats are inflated?

Matt Moore is a better passer than Tim Tebow. You aren't going to hear an argument against that anywhere. He's also currently a better QB.

silkamilkamonico
01-04-2012, 06:53 PM
Can you wrap your mind around 20 passes with 6 throw aways a game? That is 27% of his passes.

Same goes with the game with 4 dropped passes is 20%. Since he throws so little those little things add up so fast.

Can you wrap your mind around an inflated 46.5 % because of prevent defense?

lol

Excuses are bad. Nobody is making excuses for Blaine Gabbert, other than he sucks.

Elevation inc
01-04-2012, 06:53 PM
I honestly cannot get past the fact that Tebow is completing 46.5% of his passes. That is so terribly bad.

i know that and you know that as does most everyone, but there are other reasons at play as well.....its def something that needs major attention and work.....i wont disagree there

silkamilkamonico
01-04-2012, 06:54 PM
But you wont compare him to other rookie and 2nd year QBs why is that? Because he is stream line stat wise with them except lower competition percentage.

Compare him with?

Cam Newton? That isn't even a comparison.

Sam Bradford? Dude's been playing with a stress fractured ankle all year.

Andy Dalton? his stats are better, AND he averages more ppg than Tebow.

Gabbert? He sucks too.

McCoy? They are also looking for a new QB.

NightTerror218
01-04-2012, 06:55 PM
Can you wrap your mind around an inflated 46.5 % because of prevent defense?

lol

Excuses are bad. Nobody is making excuses for Blaine Gabbert, other than he sucks.

Um yes excuses, that is why we are 8-8 and in the PLAYOFFS because all 7 of those games teams played prevent all game long. And so that really inflated his stats.

Elevation inc
01-04-2012, 06:55 PM
Can you wrap your mind around an inflated 46.5 % because of prevent defense?

lol

Excuses are bad. Nobody is making excuses for Blaine Gabbert, other than he sucks.

blaine gabberts line outside of eugne monroe who beasted this year does him no favors, he has a blitzer in his face all game every game.....and he has no WR helping much either;)

silkamilkamonico
01-04-2012, 06:56 PM
i know that and you know that as does most everyone, but there are other reasons at play as well.....its def something that needs major attention and work.....i wont disagree there

I am someone who actually thinks Tebow could improve and get better. i just think it's concerning that he hasn't shown an ounce of improvement.

In fact, he has shown more regression than improvement.

He has had enough games where you should see some glimmer if improvement. Yet we have seen almost significant regression.

Elevation inc
01-04-2012, 06:56 PM
Could you imagine how ugly his stats would be if he was throwing the ball 25 times a game? 46.5% completion at 25 times a game?

How bad would his completion % be if he didn't have the luxury of passing against the prevent defense where his stats are inflated?

Matt Moore is a better passer than Tim Tebow. You aren't going to hear an argument against that anywhere. He's also currently a better QB.

i cant tell the future so who knows what his stats would be.....

NightTerror218
01-04-2012, 06:57 PM
Compare him with?

Cam Newton? That isn't even a comparison.

Sam Bradford? Dude's been playing with a stress fractured ankle all year.

Andy Dalton? his stats are better, AND he averages more ppg than Tebow.

Gabbert? He sucks too.

McCoy? They are also looking for a new QB.



yay good argument. good job you made a great point. :salute::salute:


wait what was your argument or statement.....o wait you said crap

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

NightTerror218
01-04-2012, 07:00 PM
I am someone who actually thinks Tebow could improve and get better. i just think it's concerning that he hasn't shown an ounce of improvement.

In fact, he has shown more regression than improvement.

He has had enough games where you should see some glimmer if improvement. Yet we have seen almost significant regression.

Regression in 2 games. Compare the NE to him in Miami or against Det. He played better.

So QBs are not allowed to have bad games. Brady had a 4 int game this season, his ass must be cut he sucks. Culter had league leading INTs 2 years ago, cut his ass too.

Elevation inc
01-04-2012, 07:01 PM
I am someone who actually thinks Tebow could improve and get better. i just think it's concerning that he hasn't shown an ounce of improvement.

In fact, he has shown more regression than improvement.

He has had enough games where you should see some glimmer if improvement. Yet we have seen almost significant regression.

i agree with you im worried as well.....but i am also worried about most of our offensive players cause most of them suck and cant execute either. combine that with just horrible situational playcalling and a you qb who got gunshy from 4turnovers and we are where we are.

Im just taking the wait and see approach cause while i dont see excuses for tims poor play, i do see many other factors involved

factors i missed even while kyle was qb

catfish
01-04-2012, 07:02 PM
I am someone who actually thinks Tebow could improve and get better. i just think it's concerning that he hasn't shown an ounce of improvement.

In fact, he has shown more regression than improvement.

He has had enough games where you should see some glimmer if improvement. Yet we have seen almost significant regression.

I woldn't say that, during the Miami/Detroit game it was he is throwing, but can't get it close...now it is he can't read defenses and fit it into a tight window. He surely showed timidity in the KC game, But he improved dramatically from the first start of the season when looked at as a whole, if he continues to make strides he will be fine if not he will wash out.

Fox and Elway will have plenty of time to make a decision in the offseason. It doesn't really matter as there isn't really a move that the team can make to go get a "franchise" guy this year anyway. Most likely Tebow will start next year and they will ride it to either the playoffs or a higher draft pick to try to go get "the guy"

catfish
01-04-2012, 07:06 PM
yay good argument. good job you made a great point. :salute::salute:


wait what was your argument or statement.....o wait you said crap

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Phi, there isn't a need to get heated. He disagrees, but has thus far been very civil. It is just a discussion, no need to get emotionally involved with it.

NightTerror218
01-04-2012, 07:08 PM
I woldn't say that, during the Miami/Detroit game it was he is throwing, but can't get it close...now it is he can't read defenses and fit it into a tight window. He surely showed timidity in the KC game, But he improved dramatically from the first start of the season when looked at as a whole, if he continues to make strides he will be fine if not he will wash out.

Fox and Elway will have plenty of time to make a decision in the offseason. It doesn't really matter as there isn't really a move that the team can make to go get a "franchise" guy this year anyway. Most likely Tebow will start next year and they will ride it to either the playoffs or a higher draft pick to try to go get "the guy"

From the end of post season to April Elway will have time to work with Tebow while his scouting team is out. He may attend some work outs but he has scouts that do that. I am hoping Tebow hires a full on QB coach and works entire off season. Elway will be able to see progression going into draft to know where to draft a QB.

If Tebow played very well last 2 games I could see us not drafting a QB but after the new question marks I think we will get one.

NightTerror218
01-04-2012, 07:09 PM
Phi, there isn't a need to get heated. He disagrees, but has thus far been very civil. It is just a discussion, no need to get emotionally involved with it.

smart ass comment got smart ass response.

rcsodak
01-04-2012, 07:10 PM
I stated previously that I'm not looking for more attempts, just be smarter about the timing of their playcalling and the type of routes they are running. We are obviously much better at running then passing, so stick with what you do best, but that doesn't mean you should only run 20 yard patterns on 3rd and 8.



Steelers (at least their first one with Big Ben), Ravens, Bucs...That's three in the last 10 years.



KC played them differently the first time around (as evidence by TT's big rushing yards)...The copied the Belichick model the second time.

Because he's a 1st year starter, and there is potential for improvement....
Thats my point. 2nd time around, teams know how to play them.
And those 3 teams won with their defenses.

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catfish
01-04-2012, 07:16 PM
From the end of post season to April Elway will have time to work with Tebow while his scouting team is out. He may attend some work outs but he has scouts that do that. I am hoping Tebow hires a full on QB coach and works entire off season. Elway will be able to see progression going into draft to know where to draft a QB.

If Tebow played very well last 2 games I could see us not drafting a QB but after the new question marks I think we will get one.

I think if they draft one it will be a late round pick as a backup, if they are going to get a qb to compete it will be in FA. I don't think they will piss away a 1-3 round pick on a qb just to pick another in the next draft that will be the franchise guy

Thnikkaman
01-04-2012, 07:16 PM
I honestly cannot get past the fact that Tebow is completing 46.5% of his passes. That is so terribly bad.

Meh. Invest a little less emotion into this thing that you have no control over. The FO and the team are going to do things that we don't like.

You can continue to root for this team, or go find another one. If you can't get over a stat line, maybe you need a break.

NightTerror218
01-04-2012, 07:18 PM
I think if they draft one it will be a late round pick as a backup, if they are going to get a qb to compete it will be in FA. I don't think they will piss away a 1-3 round pick on a qb just to pick another in the next draft that will be the franchise guy

It all depends on how Tebow can progress. If he make made strides before April then we may get a later one. But if he is still having issues EFX may draft an earlier one and let them fight for it.

NameUsedBefore
01-04-2012, 07:21 PM
Screens and slants would be nice. Max protect with two bumbling receivers twenty yards downfield isn't what I would call the greatest of passing attacks. What happened to the four and five-wides that carried the team out of so many holes? Tebow needs to get his mojo back, sure, but so does our idiotic playcalling. Maybe try to mix it up a little, you know?

NightTerror218
01-04-2012, 07:23 PM
Meh. Invest a little less emotion into this thing that you have no control over. The FO and the team are going to do things that we don't like.

You can continue to root for this team, or go find another one. If you can't get over a stat line, maybe you need a break.

I am surprised to see so many people down about TT passing woes then the fact our team is in the playoffs. What a depressing group of people.

catfish
01-04-2012, 07:23 PM
It all depends on how Tebow can progress. If he make made strides before April then we may get a later one. But if he is still having issues EFX may draft an earlier one and let them fight for it.

ehhh....I don't think they will draft a QB before round 4 unless they see him being their guy for the future, otherwise it is a wasted pick, he either doesn't beat out Tebow or beats out Tebow but is not franchise worthy leaving them the need to draft another guy in a year or 2. They need all the picks they have, and need to hit on a lot of them to fill holes. I think if they are going to do a QB competition it will be with a 1-2 year FA contract player who will be a band aid until they can use a higher pick in the following draft to get a franchise guy

NightTerror218
01-04-2012, 07:25 PM
ehhh....I don't think they will draft a QB before round 4 unless they see him being their guy for the future, otherwise it is a wasted pick, he either doesn't beat out Tebow or beats out Tebow but is not franchise worthy leaving them the need to draft another guy in a year or 2. They need all the picks they have, and need to hit on a lot of them to fill holes. I think if they are going to do a QB competition it will be with a 1-2 year FA contract player who will be a band aid until they can use a higher pick in the following draft to get a franchise guy

I personally think we need to get a new LG, and get a stud RT move franklin and maybe get a new C. If our OL can get better then I see the TE/RB not needing to be involved with blocking as much. I would like to sign a Vet WR with sure hands that can mentor our young group and become the #1. I also would like to see high draft picks on the defensive side of the ball if not OL.

catfish
01-04-2012, 07:28 PM
I personally think we need to get a new LG, and get a stud RT move franklin and maybe get a new C. If our OL can get better then I see the TE/RB not needing to be involved with blocking as much. I would like to sign a Vet WR with sure hands that can mentor our young group and become the #1. I also would like to see high draft picks on the defensive side of the ball if not OL.

thats what I mean, there are too many positions of immediate need to be picking a player that you will only use for a year or two. By all means if a guy they think is a franchise guy is available take him, but I don't think it is likely outside of the top 8 picks

NightTerror218
01-04-2012, 07:31 PM
thats what I mean, there are too many positions of immediate need to be picking a player that you will only use for a year or two. By all means if a guy they think is a franchise guy is available take him, but I don't think it is likely outside of the top 8 picks

If our team falls flat on face next season. With SD playing well, Chiefs healthy again and Raiders healthy too. We could be high enough to get Barkley if Tebow falls flat and does not pan out next year.

NameUsedBefore
01-04-2012, 07:35 PM
Isn't Barkley staying at USC?

And Barkley is not worth a 1st rounder. You either get RGIII or Luck. That's it.

catfish
01-04-2012, 07:35 PM
If our team falls flat on face next season. With SD playing well, Chiefs healthy again and Raiders healthy too. We could be high enough to get Barkley if Tebow falls flat and does not pan out next year.

my thoughts exactly, with the bonus of being rid of the Tebow circus as there will be no leg for his supporters to stand on at that point. The FO is in a tough spot as it stands now, because despite the fact that he has done poorly in his last 2 games it can be argued that Tebow is the reason they have made the playoffs for the first time in what 5 years? Benching him in offseason could lead back to the whole Elway wanted him to fail BS that we were dealing with earlier

NightTerror218
01-04-2012, 07:38 PM
isn't barkley staying at usc?

And barkley is not worth a 1st rounder. You either get rgiii or luck. That's it.

no next draft, 2013

NightTerror218
01-04-2012, 07:39 PM
my thoughts exactly, with the bonus of being rid of the Tebow circus as there will be no leg for his supporters to stand on at that point. The FO is in a tough spot as it stands now, because despite the fact that he has done poorly in his last 2 games it can be argued that Tebow is the reason they have made the playoffs for the first time in what 5 years? Benching him in offseason could lead back to the whole Elway wanted him to fail BS that we were dealing with earlier

Not to mention that would destroy the lock room at this point.

BroncoJoe
01-04-2012, 10:29 PM
It's my opinion that Elway was talking as much to Fox and McCoy as he was Tebow.

Let it rip. We've got nothing to lose.

MOtorboat
01-04-2012, 10:37 PM
It's my opinion that Elway was talking as much to Fox and McCoy as he was Tebow.

Let it rip. We've got nothing to lose.

At some point, the coaches are not responsible for Tebow's deficiencies. Jeebus, they called a flea flicker on the second drive of the game and Decker was WIDE OPEN on the deep route. How much more can the coaching staff open up? They let him rip against Buffalo. How'd that turn out?

Quit blaming the coaches. Elway isn't.

BroncoJoe
01-04-2012, 10:44 PM
At some point, the coaches are not responsible for Tebow's deficiencies. Jeebus, they called a flea flicker on the second drive of the game and Decker was WIDE OPEN on the deep route. How much more can the coaching staff open up? They let him rip against Buffalo. How'd that turn out?

Quit blaming the coaches. Elway isn't.

Didn't I say the coaches AND Tebow?

At some point, you have to realize Tebow was a three year project to begin with. Let's try to be objective please. It's both.

Also, the highlighted orange is opinion. Yes, at one point Decker was open. It was around the time Tebow started scrambling because the DB stuck with Decker. Should he have thrown it? IMO yes, but "wide open" is not exactly the whole truth.

I realize you don't really like Tebow, and that's OK. Just be a bit more objective in your overall analysis.

MOtorboat
01-04-2012, 10:53 PM
Didn't I say the coaches AND Tebow?

At some point, you have to realize Tebow was a three year project to begin with. Let's try to be objective please. It's both.

Also, the highlighted orange is opinion. Yes, at one point Decker was open. It was around the time Tebow started scrambling because the DB stuck with Decker. Should he have thrown it? IMO yes, but "wide open" is not exactly the whole truth.

I realize you don't really like Tebow, and that's OK. Just be a bit more objective in your overall analysis.

When Decker separates from the corner, Tebow is standing in the pocket looking at him and doing nothing. The quarterbacks job on a flea flicker is to receive the pitch and heave it up. Not wait. Not survey. Not have a cup of coffee. Throw the football.

Maybe you should be a little more objective.

BroncoJoe
01-04-2012, 11:00 PM
When Decker separates from the corner, Tebow is standing in the pocket looking at him and doing nothing. The quarterbacks job on a flea flicker is to receive the pitch and heave it up. Not wait. Not survey. Not have a cup of coffee. Throw the football.

Maybe you should be a little more objective.

Read my f'ing posts, MO. Did I not just say "IMO yes" he should have thrown the ball? Did you miss how even Simms said the DB didn't bit on the flea-flicker and stuck with Decker?

Get off the hate wagon. It's not very becoming of you.

G_Money
01-04-2012, 11:04 PM
I thought Fox said Decker ran the wrong route, so Tebow didn't know where he was gonna break and couldn't throw the ball without risking the pick.

Regardless, that's not the first open receiver Tim hasn't seen or thrown the ball to. I remember Willis doing jumping jacks trying to get his attention. Surveying the field quickly and making good, fast decisions is a skill that needs a LOT of work.

~G

MOtorboat
01-04-2012, 11:06 PM
Read my f'ing posts, MO. Did I not just say "IMO yes" he should have thrown the ball? Did you miss how even Simms said the DB didn't bit on the flea-flicker and stuck with Decker?

Get off the hate wagon. It's not very becoming of you.

It's not ******* hating a guy for recognizing real, actual problems. Any criticism of Tebow leads to being ridiculed for not being positive enough.

If any other quarterback had thrown those passes, this forum would have come apart at the seems, but because I point out Tebow isn't cutting it, I'm not ******* objective.

He isn't cutting it. That IS being objective.

BroncoJoe
01-04-2012, 11:12 PM
It's not ******* hating a guy for recognizing real, actual problems. Any criticism of Tebow leads to being ridiculed for not being positive enough.

If any other quarterback had thrown those passes, this forum would have come apart at the seems, but because I point out Tebow isn't cutting it, I'm not ******* objective.

He isn't cutting it. That IS being objective.

Just have a come to Jesus moment and embrace your hatred. You'll feel better. :)

I am not, nor have I ever said he is perfect. The kid needs a lot of work. I also can admit he is a big reason we're even still talking about a game this weekend. Two games does not make or break a player in the NFL.

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BroncoJoe
01-04-2012, 11:15 PM
I thought Fox said Decker ran the wrong route, so Tebow didn't know where he was gonna break and couldn't throw the ball without risking the pick.

Regardless, that's not the first open receiver Tim hasn't seen or thrown the ball to. I remember Willis doing jumping jacks trying to get his attention. Surveying the field quickly and making good, fast decisions is a skill that needs a LOT of work.

~G

Agreed.

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nevcraw
01-05-2012, 12:17 AM
just have a come to jesus moment and embrace your hatred. You'll feel better. :)

i am not, nor have i ever said he is perfect. The kid needs a lot of work. I also can admit he is a big reason we're even still talking about a game this weekend. Two games does not make or break a player in the nfl.

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gb2bj

Joel
01-05-2012, 03:58 AM
Geez, TWELVE PAGES in ONE DAY debating whether our QB should throw more passes, even when guys aren't all alone in the open? That's what we pay him for; he either does it or we find someone who will. That simple.

If we don't get better receivers and pass protection we won't find ANYONE who will (I've seen folks suggest Manning in FA; without a better pocket that could his career next preseason) but it's still on the QB to BE a QB.

Joel
01-05-2012, 07:00 AM
the article is more about elway and his first year as a bronco exec.
Elway just wants tim to go out there and give it his all.
that way he can dump the kid when we see what timmys all is all about... incompetence !
Yeah, I'm sure Elway would be heart broken if Tebow pulled an upset against Pitt or, worse, took us to the Super Bowl after a 4-12 season. :rolleyes: That's no more credible than other Elway conspiracy theories floated this year.

I believe there's another side to that coin though...

As you said, we hope that TT improves, that much is obvious.

But the other side of the coin is that as we get more and more film on how teams are defending us, we will be able to make adjustments of our own.

As McCoy said earlier this year, it makes it tough to gameplan offensively because no other teams run the type of offense we do, therefore we have no idea how defenses will choose to defend us.

Now that there is a blueprint out there that teams have seemed to copy ever since we got Belichick'd, we now have a pretty good idea of how teams will play us and now adjustments can be made.

Its up to the coaches to figure it out, and up to TT and the rest of the team to execute it.
While there's a grain of truth to that, I still think 75% of it is Fox trying to run an offense like a defence, and another 15% is our OC being nearly as green as our QB. WHO CARES WHAT THE DEFENCE DOES?! The offenses job is to use the massive advantages football inherently gives it to execute the game plan best suited to its ability and skill, putting the onus on the D to guess what they'll do and try to stop it. Obviously, when you have an idea of what they'll call you can and should further exploit that, but letting them (essentially) snap the ball for you is a defeatist game plan. "We'll choose our snap count after we see how many men are blitzing." Screw that; try to the things you're best at, force them to stop you and THEN adjust IF they do. Theoretically, that's what we're doing with Martyball, but teams are stopping it now: Time for Plan B (AKA "The Let 'Er Rip Option.")

Indeed, but i think the reason that it hasnt is because the QB can not handle anything more. At least Fox eludes to the idea that Tebow cant run it so what exactly are they supposed to do when the QB cant run anything beyond what they are doing?
All you got from an article titled "Fox: Broncos passing woes 'not just the quarterback'" was "Broncos passing woes just the quarterback"? Even though Fox noted when he made the quoted comment that there's a lot more going wrong than the QB, and that he's said so many times? Even though he said point blank that Decker ran the wrong route on the flea flicker (i.e. Tebow wasn't expecting him to be where he was, and if he'd "anticipated" that he'd have been WRONG)? Show me ONE TIME in that press conference where he said, or even implied, we weren't passing because the QUARTERBACK wasn't executing?

Tebow does many things well and many others badly AS A PASSER. Which he does most depends on which week you ask, but all the same things are true of the whole team. Even Champ has been a bit off the past few games. The whole team must improve to be title contenders. Who's the one guy everyone wants to give up on after 14 starts? People still say Beadles and Walton "just need time to develop" after more than twice as many.

Focusing solely on what Tebow does well OR badly gives a very skewed view of reality. He took a BIG step backward against KC, and even if he hadn't he'd need to improve beyond where he was even against Chicago and Minnesota, but let's not pretend he's a proven failure after (almost) one season starting for what is still a pretty bad team. And if you're going to quote Fox, quote what he said, not what you wish he'd said.

Well, for myself i need to clarify my own stance because i dont want to be lumped in with everyone else. There are a lot of qualities i like about Tebow, his leadership, fire, and passion for the game. Its undeniable how hard he works to be the best he can be.
His mobility, arm strength, intelligence, improved accuracy, reluctance to force passes into double coverage and going through progressions (even when he only has three) are good, too. His footwork, field vision and understanding of when/how long receivers will get open are garbage, and he doesn't get through those progressions at game speed. Additionally, against KC his swagger was GONE, whatever he told the press. But the good things he does aren't limited to the all important but ill defined "intangibles." He does some very tangible things well; perhaps the biggest issue in his first and last starts this season come from eating sacks/fumbles because he quit quickly throwing the ball away when he couldn't find anyone open.

New England was a team loss to which Tebows passing is neither her nor there, and he completed 67% of his 6 first half passes against Buffalo, so we're essentially talking about 1.5 REALLY bad games. It seems a tad perverse to say the 7-1 string was a statistical anomaly but 1.5 games are a pattern of behavior. The law of averages argues the reverse is more likely.

And before people start blabbing about Newton's surrounding talent i need to remind them that they were worse than Denver last year, and their defense is far worse than Denver's this year.
They didn't have Olsen or Shockey last year but, in general, they finished worse than us BECAUSE their D is worse. They have more talent on offense; we have more talent on defence. Do you really think Newton would've had the kind of number in Denver throwing to Decker and Thomas that he has throwing to Steve Smith, Jeremy Shockey and Greg Olsen? With Franklin covering his blind side instead of Jordan Gross?

Great post. Its how I feel exactly. The wins were fun. But I think it was bad for the long term success of the Broncos. Only because I want A. Luck.
No offense, but that's a horrible reason; you know about 14 games less about his NFL ability than you do Tebows, which is to say: Nothing. Unless we address our many other large problems at G, T and WR instead of chasing YET ANOTHER QB, we'll just be right back here in a year talking about the next draft darling we MUST get to replace our bum QB so he can singlehandedly take our 6 win team to a title. Doesn't work that way, and you're both smart enough to know it. Whether Tebow works out or not we still need a line to protect ANY young QB so he's not permanently shell schocked, still need receivers who run crisp routes and get open or NO QB will learn to anticipate them doing so.

This is very debatable. We can only hope he shows improvement. he hasn't shown any ounce of improvement in his 2 years in the NFL, and the more games he seems to play the worse he seems to get at passing. There isn't even a level of upward progression like there is with guys like Dalton.
Not true, there was steady and significant progression from the Oakland game through the Chicago game. Most people seem to be saying he peaked against NE, but we beat Chicago with good D and Tebows arm, which completed >50% of 40 passes DESPITE what the NFL and Elias both recorded as 6 drops. There was definite regression against KC, but let's not pretend there was no prior PROGRESSION, because that's ignoring the facts.

Can we trade Tebow for Dalton? I would straight up and give some also.
Would you throw in Champ? Doom? Miller? Clady? DJ? Because your other options are Tebow and the kind of draft picks Atlanta gave away for Julio Jones; how's that working out for them?

Right now the only offensive player we have who could start for another team is McGahee. Until that changes, I pity ANY Denver QB, because the blame for their collective failures will always be his alone.

Any QB could throw the ball downfield the majority of the game, complete a very low % of passes, and inflate their agv per distant with 3-4 big yard catches. In the end, it doesn't amount to much of an offense at all, just like the Denver Broncos.
Actually, no; I'd much prefer the guy getting a TD or FG every other drive, or every third drive, over the one completing 70% of his 3 yard passes so we punt on 4th and 1 EVERY time. Completion percentage is a symptom, not cause, of success; it LOOKS important because it inflates passer ratings, because the NFL Passer Rating System says 4 completions=1 TD. As a guy who grew up watching the Run 'n Shoot, I'm here to tell you they DON'T. When people screamed about Orton having a great completion percentage BETWEEN THE 20S, that's what they were really saying, whether they knew it or not.

I thought Fox said Decker ran the wrong route, so Tebow didn't know where he was gonna break and couldn't throw the ball without risking the pick.
If Tebow throws that pass where Decker was (i.e. the WRONG place) a DB runs under it 90% of the time and we scream at a boneheaded interception. Hard to anticipate where WRs will be if they're never there.

Regardless, that's not the first open receiver Tim hasn't seen or thrown the ball to. I remember Willis doing jumping jacks trying to get his attention. Surveying the field quickly and making good, fast decisions is a skill that needs a LOT of work.

~G
Yeah, that was one of those "C'MON!" moments. Field vision and adjusting to NFL speed are the big things Tebow needs now, maybe more than footwork. The hesitation against KC was more of that (though not JUST that,) IMHO; he has to adjust to how much faster NFL WRs can react just like he has to adjust to how much faster NFL linemen will chase him down or NFL DBs will ballhawk. He's trying to think on his feet, but there's no time for that; he must think during film sessions and practice, then ACT (properly) on game day.

So, yeah, 12 pages debating whether our QB needs to throw more passes more accurately. My mechanic needs to rebuild my transmission without cratering my engine, too; should we debate that next? :tongue:

vandammage13
01-05-2012, 09:33 AM
If this is the case Tebow simply should not be playing now.

13 for 29?
6 for 22?

He should be sitting his ass on the bench, along with other "projects" like Blaine Gabbert.

Andy Dalton is a young QB who is showing imporvement. He has also been in the league less than Tebow, and was not even drafted in the first round like Tebow was. He is also better than Tebow already.

Would you rather play Brady Quinn who is not even signed beyond this year?

TT is the only QB on the active roster signed beyond 2012...this year was meant to be an evaluation year after we started 1-4 and benched KO.

We happened to make the playoffs, but I don't think EFX was even looking at that as a possibility when they made the switch to Tim.

Its best to take his lumps now and learn on the job while this team is not a true contender...

The guy helped spark a great turnaround and got us in the playoffs...I don't care what his stats are in his first year, especially if we are winning.

Now if it's week 9 in 2012 and he's hasn't shown any improvement, then I'll listen to your argument, but it's just too early to tell right now, IMO.

TXBRONC
01-05-2012, 11:02 AM
I'm going to say that the team needs to figure out the blueprint that has shut doen the entire offense. Teams are putting 9 in the box, playing 1 on 1 man coverage against a 2 wide receiver look and daring them to beat the DB. Until the receiver get enough seperation consistlently, the qb hits them when they do spring free and the line holds up on a 4 man rush with basically 4 spies noone is going to change

Denver rolled for over 200 yards rushing I don't think that constitutes the entire offense being shut down. The kind of separation you're talking is found at the college level not the pros. The receivers need to step to be sure but the quarterback has to get the ball out of his hand quicker.

claymore
01-05-2012, 11:11 AM
No offense, but that's a horrible reason; you know about 14 games less about his NFL ability than you do Tebows, which is to say: Nothing. Unless we address our many other large problems at G, T and WR instead of chasing YET ANOTHER QB, we'll just be right back here in a year talking about the next draft darling we MUST get to replace our bum QB so he can singlehandedly take our 6 win team to a title. Doesn't work that way, and you're both smart enough to know it. Whether Tebow works out or not we still need a line to protect ANY young QB so he's not permanently shell schocked, still need receivers who run crisp routes and get open or NO QB will learn to anticipate them doing so.


Having a shitty QB is a pretty good reason to draft a good QB. Our line is far better than our QB. And Andrew luck is the best player in the draft. You would be drafting the BPA and a need position at the same time.

Anyone outside a wishful nostalgic Bronco fan or gatorfan knows Tim Tebow is a TERRIBLE QB.

TXBRONC
01-05-2012, 11:24 AM
BTW who is developing Tebow as QB coach? A WR coach from last year?

Gase has been a quarterback's coach before.


Before joining the Broncos, Gase was an offensive assistant for San Francisco in 2008 after coaching three seasons (2005-07) with Detroit, including serving as the club’s quarterbacks coach during the 2007 campaign. He began his coaching career in 2000 at Louisiana State University and worked at the school until taking a position in the Lions’ scouting department in 2003.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/coaches/Adam-Gase/cc4c3c3f-8bb4-41b0-bb63-9788bf10b751

It's not fair to Gase to blame him now just because Tebow is struggling. No one said a word about Gase when Tebow was showing progress. But now that Tebow has struggled over the last few weeks that make it's Gase's fault?

rcsodak
01-05-2012, 11:35 AM
I think if they draft one it will be a late round pick as a backup, if they are going to get a qb to compete it will be in FA. I don't think they will piss away a 1-3 round pick on a qb just to pick another in the next draft that will be the franchise guy
Theyve already got weber. I doubt they have 3 qb's, all a yr apart.
Either they go for it and try for a top 10qb, or they bring in a FA, imo.

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catfish
01-05-2012, 11:43 AM
Denver rolled for over 200 yards rushing I don't think that constitutes the entire offense being shut down. The kind of separation you're talking is found at the college level not the pros. The receivers need to step to be sure but the quarterback has to get the ball out of his hand quicker.

funny because I watched Bowe get 5 yards on Bailey consistently, In one instance I can remember off the top of my head he slowed down caught and under thrown pass and still had Champ beat by at least a yard. If he can do it against Bailey with a safety helping, our receivers should be able to do it consistently on 1 to 1. If they run a crisp route there is zero reason that they should only have half a step on a defender.

When people talk about threading the needle they are talking about throwing it between 2 defenders or more not trying to slip it into a receiver that is completely covered by a DB. There is a reason your receiver corps is getting universally blasted by the media this week. So far I have heard, Mangini, Ditka, Mike and Mike, Sanders with Lombardi agreeing and have heard about, but not seen quotes by Rodney Harrison saying you don't have any receivers. Does Tebow need to improve yes, but not expecting a NFL receiver to be able to get more than half a step on a DB when the receiver knows the route and the DB doesn't is silly. I don't want college no one within 12 yards of you open, bet 2 yards is completely reasonable on a 15 yard route

Doesn't mean Tebow doesn't need to improve his field vision to hit them when they do spring open, but blasting him for his poor play while not recognizing that the receiver play is so embarrassing that Elway himself mentioned that recevier weren't getting seperatioin is a little disengenuous. Fox mentioned that the flea flicker the route was run wrong...think that is the only time that happened? Point is the whole offense is young and all of them need to improve, but this corps is much closer to bottom 5 in the league than top 5

TXBRONC
01-05-2012, 11:43 AM
Theyve already got weber. I doubt they have 3 qb's, all a yr apart.
Either they go for it and try for a top 10qb, or they bring in a FA, imo.

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Weber isn't even on the active roster and he wasn't even draft. So getting a quarterback in draft isn't out of the question.

rcsodak
01-05-2012, 11:43 AM
It's not ******* hating a guy for recognizing real, actual problems. Any criticism of Tebow leads to being ridiculed for not being positive enough.

If any other quarterback had thrown those passes, this forum would have come apart at the seems, but because I point out Tebow isn't cutting it, I'm not ******* objective.

He isn't cutting it. That IS being objective.
:lol:

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Denver Native (Carol)
01-05-2012, 11:47 AM
Welcome to Tim Tebow's world.

A huge segment of Broncos Nation wants Tebow to "pull the trigger," as Broncos executive vice president of football operations John Elway​ put it this week. Just throw the Broncos out of their offensive funk.

But every coach of every football team Tebow has played for, including Denver's John Fox, has demanded that Tebow avoid turnovers at every turn.

rest of article:http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_19677741

Joel
01-05-2012, 12:04 PM
Having a shitty QB is a pretty good reason to draft a good QB. Our line is far better than our QB. And Andrew luck is the best player in the draft. You would be drafting the BPA and a need position at the same time.

Anyone outside a wishful nostalgic Bronco fan or gatorfan knows Tim Tebow is a TERRIBLE QB.
I'm neither of those things, but don't KNOW how good a QB Tebow will be in a year or two--anymore than you do. We don't KNOW Tebow's shitty after 14 starts and certainly don't KNOW Luck's good before any. We don't even know Luck's better than Tebow; his college passing stats and wins/losses aren't, and that's the only metric we've got.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter a lot for next years draft either way: We still need a decent line and receiving corps or we'll be back here in a year looking for the next overhyped unknown to save us from how shitty Andrew Luck is. Assuming, of course, that we trade our first round picks for the next two years and our second rounders for the next three to get him, which is probably what it would take. If the Colts are giving up on Manning are not willing to pay him $20 million for a couple years of play, NOTHING will get Luck. Or do you think he'll refuse to play for them and demand they trade him to us? And you think I'M indulging Broncos nostalgia. :tongue:

Actually, the more I think about it, the more it seems like the Colts getting the #1 pick GUARANTEES we can't get luck (even if we were willing to mortgage the future to do it, which EFX clearly isn't.) The Colts will be sitting there with the #1 pick and a shot at a Stanford QB EVERYONE says is a lock for the Hall of Fame, when Denver calls up with a trade offer? Pretty sure they don't want to go down that road again. :lol:

vandammage13
01-05-2012, 12:10 PM
Having a shitty QB is a pretty good reason to draft a good QB. Our line is far better than our QB. And Andrew luck is the best player in the draft. You would be drafting the BPA and a need position at the same time.

Anyone outside a wishful nostalgic Bronco fan or gatorfan knows Tim Tebow is a TERRIBLE QB.

Too bad that Tebow was so crappy at QB that he helped take us all the way out of the running for Andrew Luck straight to the playoffs.

Stupid Tebow...I didn't want to be in the playoffs...I wanted a better draft pick.

Ravage!!!
01-05-2012, 12:12 PM
I don't think its just the last two games that Tim has played poorly. We've won games DESPITE him playing poorly. His passing has been bad from day 1, and now that the run is being taken away, its just that much more evident.

Early, the hype was that Tim "inspired" our defense to play better. Our team was winning with great defense, special team touchdowns (defensive TDs as well), forced fumbles, recovered onside kicks, 59 yrd FGs, and the opposing team giving us the ball in short fields in OT.

Now that we aren't having the luck, those "bad games" by Tim's QBing is just that much easier to see, because we aren't getting lucky. No Luck.... no win.

So its not just two games that Tim as looked bad at playing QB. His QB'ing has looked bad from first game forward.

Elevation inc
01-05-2012, 12:13 PM
Having a shitty QB is a pretty good reason to draft a good QB. Our line is far better than our QB. And Andrew luck is the best player in the draft. You would be drafting the BPA and a need position at the same time.

Anyone outside a wishful nostalgic Bronco fan or gatorfan knows Tim Tebow is a TERRIBLE QB.


actually our OL has 2 starters in back to back years ranked last at there respective positions, cant say the same about tebow....he struggles yes and played like shit the last few weeks, but situational playcalling, our OL, WR's and TE's played just as shitty if not even worse at times....its a package...its not just the Wr's or the OL or tebow its all of them they are executing like crap, dropping passes, missing blocks, making horrible throws, and the OC is doing no favors either with situational playcalling....it is what it is....hate tebow...knock his future, whatever...but to be blind to all the factors involved with why are offense is struggling is to be ignoring facts and the truth....

TXBRONC
01-05-2012, 12:28 PM
funny because I watched Bowe get 5 yards on Bailey consistently, In one instance I can remember off the top of my head he slowed down caught and under thrown pass and still had Champ beat by at least a yard. If he can do it against Bailey with a safety helping, our receivers should be able to do it consistently on 1 to 1. If they run a crisp route there is zero reason that they should only have half a step on a defender.

When people talk about threading the needle they are talking about throwing it between 2 defenders or more not trying to slip it into a receiver that is completely covered by a DB. There is a reason your receiver corps is getting universally blasted by the media this week. So far I have heard, Mangini, Ditka, Mike and Mike, Sanders with Lombardi agreeing and have heard about, but not seen quotes by Rodney Harrison saying you don't have any receivers. Does Tebow need to improve yes, but not expecting a NFL receiver to be able to get more than half a step on a DB when the receiver knows the route and the DB doesn't is silly. I don't want college no one within 12 yards of you open, bet 2 yards is completely reasonable on a 15 yard route

Doesn't mean Tebow doesn't need to improve his field vision to hit them when they do spring open, but blasting him for his poor play while not recognizing that the receiver play is so embarrassing that Elway himself mentioned that recevier weren't getting seperatioin is a little disengenuous. Fox mentioned that the flea flicker the route was run wrong...think that is the only time that happened? Point is the whole offense is young and all of them need to improve, but this corps is much closer to bottom 5 in the league than top 5

First of all trying to putting the majority of the blame on the receivers because you got a hold of couple of comments that by Fox and Elway doesn't means that they put the majority of the blame on them. All the talking heads mentioned were not at the game. Phil Simms was and he different take and so have several others in local media.

It's reasonable to expect your quarterback not to hold onto the ball for five seconds when there are open receivers and if they aren't throw damn ball away or run.

Also I know what threading needle is because I watched Elway do it his entire career. I saw him do it with a receiving corp with far less talent than this one for majority of his career. It's just as disingenuous you put the majority of the blame on receivers based off a few talks who weren't even there and comments by Fox and Elway.

Btw the way I haven't blasted Tebow yet. My criticisms have been fair.

TXBRONC
01-05-2012, 12:30 PM
I personally think we need to get a new LG, and get a stud RT move franklin and maybe get a new C. If our OL can get better then I see the TE/RB not needing to be involved with blocking as much. I would like to sign a Vet WR with sure hands that can mentor our young group and become the #1. I also would like to see high draft picks on the defensive side of the ball if not OL.

If a quarterback has five or more seconds to throw which Tebow did then pass protection isn't the problem.

NightTerror218
01-05-2012, 12:31 PM
Gase has been a quarterback's coach before.



It's not fair to Gase to blame him now just because Tebow is struggling. No one said a word about Gase when Tebow was showing progress. But now that Tebow has struggled over the last few weeks that make it's Gase's fault?

Thanks for the info, I just knew he was a WR coach. But I think Tebow needs a very very good QB coach. I am not blaming Gase I was only curious if he had an actual QB coach who has worked with QBs. I personally would love Tebow to work with the "QB whisper" (Brady's QB coach).

TXBRONC
01-05-2012, 12:36 PM
Thanks for the info, I just knew he was a WR coach. But I think Tebow needs a very very good QB coach. I am not blaming Gase I was only curious if he had an actual QB coach who has worked with QBs. I personally would love Tebow to work with the "QB whisper" (Brady's QB coach).

Fair enough.

I think Gase is fine as a quarterback's coach. Maybe Brady make's the New England quarterback's coach look like genious. Let's face facts he was long before that guy came a long.

catfish
01-05-2012, 12:36 PM
First of all trying to putting the majority of the blame on the receivers because you got a hold of couple of comments that by Fox and Elway doesn't means that they put the majority of the blame on them. All the talking heads mentioned were not at the game. Phil Simms was and he different take and so have several others in local media.

It's reasonable to expect your quarterback not to hold onto the ball for five seconds when there are open receivers and if they aren't throw damn ball away or run.

Also I know what threading needle is because I watched Elway do it his entire career. I saw him do it with a receiving corp with far less talent than this one for majority of his career. It's just as disingenuous you put the majority of the blame on receivers based off a few talks who weren't even there and comments by Fox and Elway.

Btw the way I haven't blasted Tebow yet. My criticisms have been fair.

I don't claim to know what they are thinking, but I doubt they would be saying it if it wasn't an issue, Matt willis also came out and said the routes arent the issue its a matter of the receivers getting seperation and catching the ball. Do I think it is the only issue, no, I think Tebow need to throw the ball when they are open, but the fact reamins aside from a handfull of plays they were not open

Do I think Tebow needs to improve on decision making, sure I do, but did you really just say because you saw Elway do something Tebow should be able to do it? Please go rewatch the KC game and count how many times Orton had to thread the needle on his completions, I saw maybe 1-2

NightTerror218
01-05-2012, 12:42 PM
Fair enough.

I think Gase is fine as a quarterback's coach. Maybe Brady make's the New England quarterback's coach look like genious. Let's face facts he was long before that guy came a long.

That QB coach had been coaching Brady since he was drafted and he has worked out many other NFL QBs. I saw a show about him. He works a lot of up and coming HS QBs and college QBs.

TXBRONC
01-05-2012, 12:58 PM
I don't claim to know what they are thinking, but I doubt they would be saying it if it wasn't an issue, Matt willis also came out and said the routes arent the issue its a matter of the receivers getting seperation and catching the ball. Do I think it is the only issue, no, I think Tebow need to throw the ball when they are open, but the fact reamins aside from a handfull of plays they were not open

Do I think Tebow needs to improve on decision making, sure I do, but did you really just say because you saw Elway do something Tebow should be able to do it? Please go rewatch the KC game and count how many times Orton had to thread the needle on his completions, I saw maybe 1-2

Players do rally around each other. Now you're trying to tell me it's only a handful of plays that they were open? You're trying to tell me expect for a handful of time every receiver was covered? If you are that would be inaccurate.

Before I go back and rewatch the game you should reread my post. Nowhere in it did I say that Tebow needs to thread the needle. In fact on his best day I doubt he could. He has a good arm but it's nothing like Elway's arm was. You see you brought up threading needle and trying to tell what it is. I'm not dumb I've watched football long enough to know what it means to thread the needle. I explained how know. I don't need you to explain it me. Why bring up Orton good grief he doesn't have that kind arm either. Very few quarterbacks do. I'm just saying Tebow needs to make quicker decisions and not hesistate. I feel pretty confident that's what Elway means.

TXBRONC
01-05-2012, 12:59 PM
That QB coach had been coaching Brady since he was drafted and he has worked out many other NFL QBs. I saw a show about him. He works a lot of up and coming HS QBs and college QBs.

That can't be accurate because McDaniels was the quarterback's coach for a year or two. At any rate a good coach can only teach you so much. If Tebow has what it takes it will come out.

NightTerror218
01-05-2012, 01:01 PM
That can't be accurate because McDaniels was the quarterback's coach for a year or two.

He is Brady's personal QB coach/mentor not the teams. Did you not see the article that talked about Brady's mentor being sick (maybe cancer)?

TXBRONC
01-05-2012, 01:09 PM
He is Brady's personal QB coach/mentor not the teams. Did you not see the article that talked about Brady's mentor being sick (maybe cancer)?

I've not read the article but I know about his mentor and him being sick.

catfish
01-05-2012, 01:19 PM
Players do rally around each other. Now you're trying to tell me it's only a handful of plays that they were open? You're trying to tell me expect for a handful of time every receiver was covered? If you are that would be inaccurate.

Before I go back and rewatch the game you should reread my post. Nowhere in it did I say that Tebow needs to thread the needle. In fact on his best day I doubt he could. He has a good arm but it's nothing like Elway's arm was. You see you brought up threading needle and trying to tell what it is. I'm not dumb I've watched football long enough to know what it means to thread the needle. I explained how know. I don't need you to explain it me. Why bring up Orton good grief he doesn't have that kind arm either. Very few quarterbacks do. I'm just saying Tebow needs to make quicker decisions and not hesistate. I feel pretty confident that's what Elway means.

look here is a breakdown of the game. I don't think the majority of the blame is on the receivers, but they need to take a large portion. If you agree with the write up fine, if not also fine. I am done talking about it. Suffice it to say it is my opinion that all aspects of the passing game require an upgrade in the offseason

http://www.milehighreport.com/2012/1/2/2677552/tebows-dropbacks-kc-and-mccoys-play-calling

Joel
01-05-2012, 01:22 PM
:elefant:
I don't think its just the last two games that Tim has played poorly. We've won games DESPITE him playing poorly.
Believe what you like, but that's just not factually accurate. He's missed many passes, but hit 66.7% against Minnesota, and would've hit 67.5% against Chicago without 6 drops (according to Elias and the NFL; I still think that was his best game) and was 66.7% against Minnesota. Yet even though his completion percentage has usually been bad, and even though that's THE MOST IMPORTANT PRS STAT, he still managed ratings of:

91.7@ MIA
98.1@ OAK
100.5@ KC
95.4@ SD
158.2@ MIN
80.5 vs. NE

How? Hint: His OFFICIAL PR is actually lower against Minnesota, because Tebows 13.5 YPA and 13.3 TD% were off the charts--literally: The NFL caps the award for those categories at a lower number. Seriously, 200 yards and 2 TDs on 15 passes (completing 10)? Seems like a pretty good day. Since completion percentage doesn't give me first downs or points, I (but not the NFL) am FAR more interested in YPA, TD% and Int%.

His last two games were bad and he won't remain the starter if that continues, but he's had good AND bad days passing. More of the former than the latter, and ignoring either is rejecting reality for false belief.

Denver Native (Carol)
01-05-2012, 01:33 PM
Too bad that Tebow was so crappy at QB that he helped take us all the way out of the running for Andrew Luck straight to the playoffs.

Stupid Tebow...I didn't want to be in the playoffs...I wanted a better draft pick.

The wins, getting us to where we are now, were total team wins - not one player only wins.

NightTerror218
01-05-2012, 01:39 PM
The wins, getting us to where we are now, were total team wins - not one player only wins.

And the team played a whole lot worse with another QB who played better at QB.

Elevation inc
01-05-2012, 01:47 PM
If a quarterback has five or more seconds to throw which Tebow did then pass protection isn't the problem.

lol it is when a TE, FB and RB are blocking in max protect with 5 OL for a 4 man rush or maybe 5, thats 8 on 5 thats why there is 5 seconds but it has to happen cause our OL struggles...but with 2 WR's running routes and being blanketed who is tebow suppose to throw to, he cant run cause the DE's stayed home......walton and beadles got pushed back so the inside run isnt there...whats he to do.....personally he messes up alot here holding the ball to long and taking stupid sacks....but when it isnt there as a young QB its not unnormal to freeze

Most of us fence riders now get tebow struggled and he played like crap but why on earth are people giving WR's and OL a pass when they played just as shitty doing there jobs at there positions.....its not a excuse for tebow...but its damn sure inexcusbale for those players and should not be accepeted......

forget the tebow BS for a minute...and realize that 3 offensive players are doing there jobs correctly, thats it period!! thats just as much a factor to our shitty offense as tebows performance has been.....

Ravage!!!
01-05-2012, 01:49 PM
DIdn't have to keep 5 plus 3 for max protect when other QBs were playing. Seems there is a correlation in there, somewhere.

Elevation inc
01-05-2012, 01:56 PM
DIdn't have to keep 5 plus 3 for max protect when other QBs were playing. Seems there is a correlation in there, somewhere.

actually rav i went back and orton suffered the same thing on many occasions, Orton has a superior OL in KC and a proven WR in bowe its not suprising he performed better, i missed it to.....orton was dealing with some of the same BS tebow is WR's not seperating etc...it also made sense why he locked on lloyd so much since those games with orton i watched the replays off watching Decker and eddie was pathetic, they were even worse than they are right now....I hate orton with a insane passion, but I have started to realize he had some BS weapons here as well outside of lloyd

Elevation inc
01-05-2012, 01:59 PM
DIdn't have to keep 5 plus 3 for max protect when other QBs were playing. Seems there is a correlation in there, somewhere.


think what you want rav but beadles, walton, fells, royal, decker, willis, Mike mccoy, ball, clady....these players are doing there jobs just as bad as tebow is in fact in some cases much much worse.....everything relates and why people cant see that is beyond me...

Im on the fence about tebow after the last few weeks, cause he didnt play well the last 2 at all....but I also am on that same fence with the players and coach listed above outside of clady, the reason is because they performed at there jobs just as bad as tebow did at qb and none of them are helping each other out at all......

TXBRONC
01-05-2012, 02:00 PM
lol it is when a TE, FB and RB are blocking in max protect with 5 OL for a 4 man rush or maybe 5, thats 8 on 5 thats why there is 5 seconds but it has to happen cause our OL struggles...but with 2 WR's running routes and being blanketed who is tebow suppose to throw to, he cant run cause the DE's stayed home......walton and beadles got pushed back so the inside run isnt there...whats he to do.....personally he messes up alot here holding the ball to long and taking stupid sacks....but when it isnt there as a young QB its not unnormal to freeze

Most of us fence riders now get tebow struggled and he played like crap but why on earth are people giving WR's and OL a pass when they played just as shitty doing there jobs at there positions.....its not a excuse for tebow...but its damn sure inexcusbale for those players and should not be accepeted......

forget the tebow BS for a minute...and realize that 3 offensive players are doing there jobs correctly, thats it period!! thats just as much a factor to our shitty offense as tebows performance has been.....

I don't recall them using much max protection against the Chiefs.

Remember we don't agree how the offensive line has preformed over the course of the season. There are varying publications on the analysis of the offensive line. I don't agree with one you've referenced.

Having said that, I know it's not all on Tebow just like it was never all on Orton.

Elevation inc
01-05-2012, 02:06 PM
I don't recall them using much max protection against the Chiefs.

Remember we don't agree how the offensive line has preformed over the course of the season. There are varying publications on the analysis of the offensive line. I don't agree with one you've referenced.

Having said that, I know it's not all on Tebow just like it was never all on Orton.




wish everyone realized that, and your right we wont agree on the OL......they suck ass in big bad and horrible ways.....its sad when hochstein comes of the bench and instantly give the best OL performnace the last 3 weeks.....and its max protect when only 2 wr's go deep and everyone else stays on the LOS

rcsodak
01-05-2012, 02:35 PM
:elefant:
Believe what you like, but that's just not factually accurate. He's missed many passes, but hit 66.7% against Minnesota, and would've hit 67.5% against Chicago without 6 drops (according to Elias and the NFL; I still think that was his best game) and was 66.7% against Minnesota. Yet even though his completion percentage has usually been bad, and even though that's THE MOST IMPORTANT PRS STAT, he still managed ratings of:

91.7@ MIA
98.1@ OAK
100.5@ KC
95.4@ SD
158.2@ MIN
80.5 vs. NE

How? Hint: His OFFICIAL PR is actually lower against Minnesota, because Tebows 13.5 YPA and 13.3 TD% were off the charts--literally: The NFL caps the award for those categories at a lower number. Seriously, 200 yards and 2 TDs on 15 passes (completing 10)? Seems like a pretty good day. Since completion percentage doesn't give me first downs or points, I (but not the NFL) am FAR more interested in YPA, TD% and Int%.

His last two games were bad and he won't remain the starter if that continues, but he's had good AND bad days passing. More of the former than the latter, and ignoring either is rejecting reality for false belief.
Every qb has dropped passes. So no, he didnt have that good of %, in real life. It is what it is.

Now look at the pass d's of the teams he did ok against.
Just like last yr when he has the 300yd'r. It was vs the #32pass d.
As for the qbr #'s?
Puhlease. But i'll defer to Rav on that, as he is much more eloquent on that matter.

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rcsodak
01-05-2012, 02:39 PM
lol it is when a TE, FB and RB are blocking in max protect with 5 OL for a 4 man rush or maybe 5, thats 8 on 5 thats why there is 5 seconds but it has to happen cause our OL struggles...but with 2 WR's running routes and being blanketed who is tebow suppose to throw to, he cant run cause the DE's stayed home......walton and beadles got pushed back so the inside run isnt there...whats he to do.....personally he messes up alot here holding the ball to long and taking stupid sacks....but when it isnt there as a young QB its not unnormal to freeze

Most of us fence riders now get tebow struggled and he played like crap but why on earth are people giving WR's and OL a pass when they played just as shitty doing there jobs at there positions.....its not a excuse for tebow...but its damn sure inexcusbale for those players and should not be accepeted......

forget the tebow BS for a minute...and realize that 3 offensive players are doing there jobs correctly, thats it period!! thats just as much a factor to our shitty offense as tebows performance has been.....

:confused:

I think i've seen this same post before....annd before....and before....


...is it Groundhog Day?




:laugh:

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NightTerror218
01-05-2012, 02:40 PM
Every qb has dropped passes. So no, he didnt have that good of %, in real life. It is what it is.

Now look at the pass d's of the teams he did ok against.
Just like last yr when he has the 300yd'r. It was vs the #32pass d.
As for the qbr #'s?
Puhlease. But i'll defer to Rav on that, as he is much more eloquent on that matter.

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You never liked Tebow to begin with and never gave him a chance. The fact he played well you avoid this forum. You prob even hate we made the playoffs with his help. The point was 6 dropped passes in 1 game is outrageous. No other team has that many. Realistically there are 2 a game. Other are just incomplete or uncatchable.

Elevation inc
01-05-2012, 02:42 PM
:confused:

I think i've seen this same post before....annd before....and before....


...is it Groundhog Day?




:laugh:

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:lol: :D

im not sure i know what you mean....:laugh:

NightTerror218
01-05-2012, 02:45 PM
:lol: :D

im not sure i know what you mean....:laugh:

I assume the movie

arapaho2
01-05-2012, 02:46 PM
all i got to add is this

attempts from behind the line of scrimmage to 10 yards...passes thrown 10 yards or less

as in screens, wr screens, quick slants, drag routes, check downs


rodgers....63% of his attempts
brees..............64.5%
stafford...........63.5%
brady..............63.5%

tebow...............43.5%

whether he isnt seeing those short routes....or were not calling them....we must find a way to use them

NightTerror218
01-05-2012, 02:48 PM
all i got to add is this

attempts from behind the line of scrimmage to 10 yards...passes thrown 10 yards or less

as in screens, wr screens, quick slants, drag routes, check downs


rodgers....63% of his attempts
brees..............64.5%
stafford...........63.5%
brady..............63.5%

tebow...............43.5%

whether he isnt seeing those short routes....or were not calling them....we must find a way to use them

people like to ignore this stat and the fact these are high percentage completions. 20% less......damn

Mike
01-05-2012, 02:58 PM
Tebow's problems aside, o-line is an area of weakness. Tebow's strengths (i.e. keeping him in the pocket and keeping containment on him) is the reason the o-line doesn't "look" bad.

Next to secondary, I think o-line is the biggest need...assuming we can't get a top prospect QB that is.

CoachChaz
01-05-2012, 02:59 PM
Tebow's problems aside, o-line is an area of weakness. Tebow's strengths (i.e. keeping him in the pocket and keeping containment on him) is the reason the o-line doesn't "look" bad.

Next to secondary, I think o-line is the biggest need...assuming we can't get a top prospect QB that is.

WR is very high on that list as well

Ravage!!!
01-05-2012, 03:00 PM
Believe what you like, but that's just not factually accurate. He's missed many passes, but hit 66.7% against Minnesota, and would've hit 67.5% against Chicago without 6 drops (according to Elias and the NFL; I still think that was his best game) and was 66.7% against Minnesota. Yet even though his completion percentage has usually been bad, and even though that's THE MOST IMPORTANT PRS STAT, he still managed ratings of:

91.7@ MIA
98.1@ OAK
100.5@ KC
95.4@ SD
158.2@ MIN
80.5 vs. NE

How? Hint: His OFFICIAL PR is actually lower against Minnesota, because Tebows 13.5 YPA and 13.3 TD% were off the charts--literally: The NFL caps the award for those categories at a lower number. Seriously, 200 yards and 2 TDs on 15 passes (completing 10)? Seems like a pretty good day. Since completion percentage doesn't give me first downs or points, I (but not the NFL) am FAR more interested in YPA, TD% and Int%.

His last two games were bad and he won't remain the starter if that continues, but he's had good AND bad days passing. More of the former than the latter, and ignoring either is rejecting reality for false belief.

The Minnesota game is the anomaly. The WRs were left COMPLETELY open that game, and it made our offense look like super stars. Thank you Minnesota.

But Tebow has looked TERRRIBLE passing the ball in every other game. Most of his completeion (ESPECIALLY the Chicago game) came when the defense was sitting back (stupidly) in the prevent defense. Chicago had DBs 20 yrds back, for god's sake.

The time Tebow has completed most of his passes are at the end of the fourth quarter, when we have been down in points, and the defenses sat back in the prevent.

If you have watched the games (and I know you have, not suggesting you haven't) and still believe that Tebow is a good passer, thats absolutely your right. But I haven't seen anything that makes me believe Tim is a good passer in the least, and that includes actually having HOPE after the Minnesota game. That was the one game that made me thing "maybe." Thats gone now.

NightTerror218
01-05-2012, 03:06 PM
The Minnesota game is the anomaly. The WRs were left COMPLETELY open that game, and it made our offense look like super stars. Thank you Minnesota.

But Tebow has looked TERRRIBLE passing the ball in every other game. Most of his completeion (ESPECIALLY the Chicago game) came when the defense was sitting back (stupidly) in the prevent defense. Chicago had DBs 20 yrds back, for god's sake.

The time Tebow has completed most of his passes are at the end of the fourth quarter, when we have been down in points, and the defenses sat back in the prevent.

If you have watched the games (and I know you have, not suggesting you haven't) and still believe that Tebow is a good passer, thats absolutely your right. But I haven't seen anything that makes me believe Tim is a good passer in the least, and that includes actually having HOPE after the Minnesota game. That was the one game that made me thing "maybe." Thats gone now.

We average what 6 passes in the first half and about 18 the second half? And we are always down at halftime. Tebow completes what 2 or 3 in first half and most of the remaining in 4th quarter. So what if during our wins they were in prevent. Their stupid coaching mistake not ours. We capitalized on it and won. Orton never done that.

Elevation inc
01-05-2012, 03:09 PM
WR is very high on that list as well



If fox wasnt the type of coach he is it would not suprise me to see Kendall wright or alshon jeffery as our pick...in fact they could even be BPA at 21....that would be interesting to see what happens then...lol

Denver Native (Carol)
01-05-2012, 03:16 PM
wish everyone realized that, and your right we wont agree on the OL......they suck ass in big bad and horrible ways.....its sad when hochstein comes of the bench and instantly give the best OL performnace the last 3 weeks.....and its max protect when only 2 wr's go deep and everyone else stays on the LOS

In the last 3 game, all 3 teams that the Broncos have played stacked 8 in the box. That could be why things are not opening up like they did before, rather than the thinking that the OL has failed the last 3 games - just because.

CoachChaz
01-05-2012, 03:17 PM
If fox wasnt the type of coach he is it would not suprise me to see Kendall wright or alshon jeffery as our pick...in fact they could even be BPA at 21....that would be interesting to see what happens then...lol

Scratch Kendall Wright. Not really interested in another slot receiver.

NightTerror218
01-05-2012, 03:21 PM
In the last 3 game, all 3 teams that the Broncos have played stacked 8 in the box. That could be why things are not opening up like they did before, rather than the thinking that the OL has failed the last 3 games - just because.

we also have had max protection, with TEs and RBs blocking. That is less targets they have to cover and no single coverage on WRs safety always around.

works great is rushing but not so well when there is no blitz coming.

Elevation inc
01-05-2012, 03:24 PM
Scratch Kendall Wright. Not really interested in another slot receiver.

true that i guess..but wright is a blazer.......I would take alshon jeffery though maybe dwight jones to.....blackmon is gone top ten and flloyd is gone top 20 in my mind...

One of my favorites in the draft though is Jordan white from western michigan, he is a straight beast!

Elevation inc
01-05-2012, 03:26 PM
In the last 3 game, all 3 teams that the Broncos have played stacked 8 in the box. That could be why things are not opening up like they did before, rather than the thinking that the OL has failed the last 3 games - just because.


yeah but they rush 4....this keeps contain on tebow from running and also doesnt allow much offense from the WR's cause they cant beat single coverage

NightTerror218
01-05-2012, 03:27 PM
true that i guess..but wright is a blazer.......I would take alshon jeffery though maybe dwight jones to.....blackmon is gone top ten and flloyd is gone top 20 in my mind...

One of my favorites in the draft though is Jordan white from western michigan, he is a straight beast!

I want a lighting fast WR/RB with good hands. I dont care about size. I think think a Wes Welker with incredible speed. Someone that would be good on quick screens and could be used as punt/kick returner with royal.

CoachChaz
01-05-2012, 03:30 PM
true that i guess..but wright is a blazer.......I would take alshon jeffery though maybe dwight jones to.....blackmon is gone top ten and flloyd is gone top 20 in my mind...

One of my favorites in the draft though is Jordan white from western michigan, he is a straight beast!

I think Ashlon goes high as well. I'd be contect with Jeff Fuller. Watched the guy for 4 years and he catches everything. He'd be a great short yardage/possession receiver and he could probably be had in the 3rd.

White is a stud. Another small school guy that I like is Brian Quick from Appalachian State

vandammage13
01-05-2012, 04:35 PM
If fox wasnt the type of coach he is it would not suprise me to see Kendall wright or alshon jeffery as our pick...in fact they could even be BPA at 21....that would be interesting to see what happens then...lol

As much as I think we could use an upgrade at WR, I would hate for us to spend another 1st rounder on one.

Shore up the Defense with the first two picks, then try to pick up some speed on offense in the middle rounds.

rcsodak
01-05-2012, 04:59 PM
You never liked Tebow to begin with and never gave him a chance. The fact he played well you avoid this forum. You prob even hate we made the playoffs with his help. The point was 6 dropped passes in 1 game is outrageous. No other team has that many. Realistically there are 2 a game. Other are just incomplete or uncatchable.
You dont know shit about me, kid.

And as for TT's dropped passes, shit thrown passes are half the cause, running dummy routes and all of a sudden a ball is in your face is prolly another.


A wr shouldnt have to be born a Flying Walinda just to have to catch a football.

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rcsodak
01-05-2012, 05:02 PM
all i got to add is this

attempts from behind the line of scrimmage to 10 yards...passes thrown 10 yards or less

as in screens, wr screens, quick slants, drag routes, check downs


rodgers....63% of his attempts
brees..............64.5%
stafford...........63.5%
brady..............63.5%

tebow...............43.5%

whether he isnt seeing those short routes....or were not calling them....we must find a way to use them
Word this summer was he cant throw them.
In front, behind, too high, too low, too hard......

Evidently, sideline passes to his left are his strong point.

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rcsodak
01-05-2012, 05:06 PM
We average what 6 passes in the first half and about 18 the second half? And we are always down at halftime. Tebow completes what 2 or 3 in first half and most of the remaining in 4th quarter. So what if during our wins they were in prevent. Their stupid coaching mistake not ours. We capitalized on it and won. Orton never done that.
Try to make a pertinent point without using ex players.

Its funner.

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TXBRONC
01-05-2012, 05:09 PM
Try to make a pertinent point without using ex players.

Its funner.

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Please you're inclined to do the same thing when it serves your purposes.

rcsodak
01-05-2012, 05:09 PM
I think Ashlon goes high as well. I'd be contect with Jeff Fuller. Watched the guy for 4 years and he catches everything. He'd be a great short yardage/possession receiver and he could probably be had in the 3rd.

White is a stud. Another small school guy that I like is Brian Quick from Appalachian State
Isnt fuller=decker?

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NightTerror218
01-05-2012, 05:11 PM
Try to make a pertinent point without using ex players.

Its funner.

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and where have you make a pertinent point? trying to remember the last time you said anything positive about a bronco player... :confused:

rcsodak
01-05-2012, 05:16 PM
Please you're inclined to do the same thing when it serves your purposes.
Shut uuuup...


.....I keeel you!

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rcsodak
01-05-2012, 05:17 PM
and where have you make a pertinent point? trying to remember the last time you said anything positive about a bronco player... :confused:
Dont hurt your lil' head.

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Ravage!!!
01-05-2012, 05:36 PM
and where have you make a pertinent point? trying to remember the last time you said anything positive about a bronco player... :confused:

Positive and pertinent are not synonymous

NightTerror218
01-05-2012, 05:38 PM
Positive and pertinent are not synonymous

did I say it was? I dont think so. There was a break in sentence it was 2 different thoughts.

NightTerror218
01-05-2012, 05:39 PM
Dont hurt your lil' head.

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I wont dont worry :welcome:

Joel
01-05-2012, 05:39 PM
DIdn't have to keep 5 plus 3 for max protect when other QBs were playing. Seems there is a correlation in there, somewhere.
Yeah, 'cos "fainting goat" was our term of endearment for Orton, who NEVER sack fumbled; with a decent completion percentage he'd probably still be a Bronco. Am you watching Colts and Jags in Bizzaro Bowl? :tongue:

Every qb has dropped passes. So no, he didnt have that good of %, in real life. It is what it is.

Now look at the pass d's of the teams he did ok against.
Just like last yr when he has the 300yd'r. It was vs the #32pass d.
As for the qbr #'s?
Puhlease. But i'll defer to Rav on that, as he is much more eloquent on that matter.
Seems like moving the goal posts; first it's "he's never passed well," then I cite 6 of his 11 starts this year where he did just that and it's "those defences sucked." Beside the point; he either passed well or didn't, and if he did let's not hang the guy because he only beat bad defences, without making them retire out of shame.

Every QB has dropped passes, but when we have so many despite throwing so rarely, our receivers are dropping far more than their share. :tsk: He was still over that magical 50% completions against Minnesota, but with even half as many drops it would've been 60%.

When we pulled Orton for Tebow I wanted Quinn, because I thought him the best of our many bad options; my derisive comment here at the time was that Fox decided our sorry line and receivers meant we had to play sandlot ball, so a sandlot QB gave us our best shot. That's pretty much still true, but somewhere over the intervening 7 wins the derision ceased. Tebow's got to pass better, but is neither all good nor all bad.

The Minnesota game is the anomaly. The WRs were left COMPLETELY open that game, and it made our offense look like super stars. Thank you Minnesota.
If that's the anomaly (and your right about the "coverage;" looked like us "defending" against the Pats) what are the other 4 games with great ratings and the 5th with a decent one?

But Tebow has looked TERRRIBLE passing the ball in every other game. Most of his completeion (ESPECIALLY the Chicago game) came when the defense was sitting back (stupidly) in the prevent defense. Chicago had DBs 20 yrds back, for god's sake.

The time Tebow has completed most of his passes are at the end of the fourth quarter, when we have been down in points, and the defenses sat back in the prevent.
So when defences dropped 7 or 8 guys in coverage to keep us out of the end zone, Tebow hit WRs outnumbered 2 to 1 and got us there anyway, in some games, more than once. That's good passing, in multiple games.

If you have watched the games (and I know you have, not suggesting you haven't) and still believe that Tebow is a good passer, thats absolutely your right. But I haven't seen anything that makes me believe Tim is a good passer in the least, and that includes actually having HOPE after the Minnesota game. That was the one game that made me thing "maybe." Thats gone now.
I think he's SOMETIMES a good passer, more often than not according to the stats, but not CONSISTENTLY one. He'd come along way until the Buffalo game (at least; I only saw two plays in the second half, which both happened to be Tebow turnovers, but hear he spent most of the second half running for his life.) He DEFINITELY took a big step backward against KC; he looked worse than when he stepped on the field against SD. Obviously that's nowhere near good enough; we need the kind of passing he did against Chicago and KC, whatever D we're facing.

Let's say we drop the low and high: Ignore the Vikings and Chiefs games. We're left with 5 good passing games out of 9, and a 6-3 record. I think that's good enough to see how much he improves with intensive one on one training from Elway, in the first off season of his career, the experience from this year and some good draft picks/FAs. I want a shut down CB so bad I can taste it, but the more I think about it the more I wouldn't be surprised if we go for pass blocking Gs and WRs; ANY QB will need them to develop both pocket presence and a feel for when and where good receivers will break open for a split second to make catches.

Sorry about the dancing elephant, btw; not sure how that slipped in there (didn't even see it until rc quoted me in response) but no insult was intended.

Elevation inc
01-05-2012, 05:41 PM
In the last 3 game, all 3 teams that the Broncos have played stacked 8 in the box. That could be why things are not opening up like they did before, rather than the thinking that the OL has failed the last 3 games - just because.



i dont deal in just because carol, i spend alot of time evaluating this team and the draft....i am not insane with my opinions....i see big picture alot of times....i dont just post stuff cause it looks cool or because.......i post it because thats whats going....and whats going on is our offense sucks the last 3 games from the WR, OL, TE, coaching and certainly the QB position......its all relative to each other as well....as i told rav no one on the offense is helping anyone right now....NO one, save for mcghaee!!!!

Ravage!!!
01-05-2012, 05:42 PM
did I say it was? I dont think so. There was a break in sentence it was 2 different thoughts.

Ahhh. I guess since its hard to tell when you run thoughts together and when you don't, I didn't catch that (as this very post I quoted, illustrates). Not to mention, because you followed one up with another, it doesn't have to be "said" that you connected the two, your sentences did that for you.

But its sometimes speculated around here that one must be "positive" to have a pertinent point. As silly as that sounds, it's true.

NightTerror218
01-05-2012, 05:45 PM
Ahhh. I guess since its hard to tell when you run thoughts together and when you don't, I didn't catch that (as this very post I quoted, illustrates). Not to mention, because you followed one up with another, it doesn't have to be "said" that you connected the two, your sentences did that for you.

But its sometimes speculated around here that one must be "positive" to have a pertinent point. As silly as that sounds, it's true.

Those are just the fanatics that say they must be positive. Even constructive criticism gets the same response as negative.

Joel
01-05-2012, 05:50 PM
Tebow's problems aside, o-line is an area of weakness. Tebow's strengths (i.e. keeping him in the pocket and keeping containment on him) is the reason the o-line doesn't "look" bad.

Next to secondary, I think o-line is the biggest need...assuming we can't get a top prospect QB that is.

WR is very high on that list as well
Very torn, guys, very. Kuper's injury looked bad enough I don't know if he'll ever be the same though, and that leaves us hoping Harris is a long term starter at RT AND Franklin can transition to RG or we have NOTHING at G. The bumps G past CB as my top off season priority, but WR is hot on their heels in third. The offense flat needs more work though, and, whether we keep Tebow or not, ANY young QB will need good protection to gain pocket presence, as well as receivers good enough he can learn when, where and how long NFL receivers are open.

If our secondary weren't so bad, it'd be easier; we MUST address that with Dawkins probably done and Goodman playing so badly (though he wasn't bad last week.) But much improved guards would improve our passing AND running as well as being vital to whoever winds up as our franchise QB (sorry, I firmly believe drafting the franchise QB ahead of a solid line is just wasting a good pick on a talented kid you've doomed to fail.)

Ravage!!!
01-05-2012, 06:00 PM
If that's the anomaly (and your right about the "coverage;" looked like us "defending" against the Pats) what are the other 4 games with great ratings and the 5th with a decent one?
You are looking at QB ratings????? I never look at the QB rating. Tebow looked like CRAP for 55 minutes of a game, and gets lucky at the end, and the QB rating is favorable! The QB rating is a joke. Tebow, by himself, has proved that the new QBR doesn't work....either.


So when defences dropped 7 or 8 guys in coverage to keep us out of the end zone, Tebow his WRs outnumbered 2 to 1 and got us there anyway, in some games, more than once. That's good passing, in multiple games.
Uhmmm.. no. I don't know where you are getting this, because thats not how it works. When teams drop BACK into prevent defense, they are purely playing deep ball first and sidelines second. Allowing anything in the middle of the field to be caught as long as its in FRONT of you. Be SURE to make the tackle and not allow YAC. WRs are generally wide open in prevent defenses as the holes within the zone defenses are MAJORLY inflated due to the fact that the safeties are not coming up or threatened by any run, and dropping BACk after already starting 20 yrds deep from the LOS.

This is why QBs that face prevent defenses a lot are preferred in fantasy football, because the QB is able to rack up TONS of yardage in a short amount of time.


I think he's SOMETIMES a good passer, more often than not according to the stats, but not CONSISTENTLY one. He'd come along way until the Buffalo game...
We are just going to have to disagreee. I don't think some TIMES he's a good passer, I think he's a good passer on just some PLAYS. Thats a huge difference. Generally speaking, the guy hits fewer passes than he completes (which is why he has a below 50% pass completion %). 7 out of 10 games he completed 50% or less of his passes. Thats darn near 70% of the time.

So I don't know what you consider to be "good" passing games, but if we take out high and low, that mean he was 6 out of 8 games he had less than 50% completion.

Also, lets be realistic and understand that Tim is not going to get "intensive one-on-one" training with Elway. Elway isn't a coach, and he's not going to be a coach. He might spend an afternoon helping, and might spend some time talking with Tim and giving advice...but he's not going to spend hours and hours in the offseason working with the QBs. That's not his job.

skins_fan82
01-05-2012, 06:22 PM
They do not want him pulling the trigger against the Steelers.

I was thinking the same thing...

Pittsburgh has the #1 passing defense in the NFL. Not exactly the team I want Tebow "just trusting himself and letting it go..."

But he's gonna have to learn how to throw one way or the other, and one of the best ways to learn is by going up against and getting destroyed by the best out there...

NightTerror218
01-05-2012, 06:24 PM
I was thinking the same thing...

Pittsburgh has the #1 passing defense in the NFL. Not exactly the team I want Tebow "just trusting himself and letting it go..."

But he's gonna have to learn how to throw one way or the other, and one of the best ways to learn is by going up against and getting destroyed by the best out there...

one reason is because they have great pass rush. If tebows legs can get some extra time it might help.

MOtorboat
01-05-2012, 06:25 PM
one reason is because they have great pass rush. If tebows legs can get some extra time it might help.

They have great contain, too, though. I imagine Palomalu will be in the box all day, spying.

NightTerror218
01-05-2012, 06:31 PM
They have great contain, too, though. I imagine Palomalu will be in the box all day, spying.

i would not be surprised to see him fly over Waltons head and hit TT.

MOtorboat
01-05-2012, 06:37 PM
i would not be surprised to see him fly over Waltons head and hit TT.

He might not be able to freelance quite as much with Clark out, but he's still dangerous with a quarterback who doesn't read defenses very well. Pittsburgh disguises defenses better than anyone.

Northman
01-05-2012, 06:46 PM
He might not be able to freelance quite as much with Clark out, but he's still dangerous with a quarterback who doesn't read defenses very well. Pittsburgh disguises defenses better than anyone.

They were talking about that today. With Clark out he will have to keep the defense in line with their assignments, etc and be unable to freelance as he usually does.

Joel
01-05-2012, 06:47 PM
You are looking at QB ratings????? I never look at the QB rating. Tebow looked like CRAP for 55 minutes of a game, and gets lucky at the end, and the QB rating is favorable! The QB rating is a joke. Tebow, by himself, has proved that the new QBR doesn't work....either.
Stats are a tool; all have their limitations but most are helpful if we understand their uses. I watched the games, yeah, but am frankly weary of rehashing every single play for the umpteenth time only to be told each failure was Tebows fault. Even when I pointed to Lance Ball getting hit by two guys (one unblocked) a yard past the line against NE, after which a third fell on his fumble in our backfield, the line was still excused because any admission of weakness in them MIGHT take some heat off Tebow.

I referenced his Passer Rating not because I love it (I hate it) but because completion percentage is both the biggest part of it and the biggest complaint against Tebow, to roughly equal degrees. The point was this:

According to the stat that says completion percentage is most important, Tebow's done well in the majority of his games, and done OK for the season.

I think that bears some consideration; it's only true because, despite his low (and largely irrelevant) completion percentage, Tebow does what actually MATTERS (i.e. getting first downs and touch downs) VERY well.

I worked out QBR on my own when Tebow was still sweating the results of his first college midterm, and did so for the same reason other people have: A QB is more than just a passer, and the classic PR badly lowballs great rushers. That Tebow's among them is purely coincidental.

Uhmmm.. no. I don't know where you are getting this, because thats not how it works. When teams drop BACK into prevent defense, they are purely playing deep ball first and sidelines second. Allowing anything in the middle of the field to be caught as long as its in FRONT of you. Be SURE to make the tackle and not allow YAC. WRs are generally wide open in prevent defenses as the holes within the zone defenses are MAJORLY inflated due to the fact that the safeties are not coming up or threatened by any run, and dropping BACk after already starting 20 yrds deep from the LOS.

This is why QBs that face prevent defenses a lot are preferred in fantasy football, because the QB is able to rack up TONS of yardage in a short amount of time.
The endzone is not the middle of the field, and neither is the sideline. The critical point you're omitting is that prevent only surrenders those yards in the middle of the field to keep opponents from scoring before time expires, and Tebow repeatedly beat those prevents at their own game, despite having double or even triple coverage on all his subpar receivers.

How many times did we get to OT because a D designed to stop teams throwing sideline routes to get into FG range failed to stop us doing just that? I count two.

How many times did we score TDs on Ds with every WR blanketed AND guys in deep zones to stop that very thing? There I count four. Against Chicago, Miami and Minnesota we scored on their prevents AGAIN after that!

Saying he only came back from 10-0 and 15-0 against prevent is like saying McGahee only got a TD on 4th and G at the 2: THAT'S THE HARDEST WAY TO DO IT!

We are just going to have to disagreee. I don't think some TIMES he's a good passer, I think he's a good passer on just some PLAYS. Thats a huge difference. Generally speaking, the guy hits fewer passes than he completes (which is why he has a below 50% pass completion %). 7 out of 10 games he completed 50% or less of his passes. Thats darn near 70% of the time.

So I don't know what you consider to be "good" passing games, but if we take out high and low, that mean he was 6 out of 8 games he had less than 50% completion.
And there it is: His completion percentage is crappy, therefore he's a crappy passer. The Passer Rating System agrees with that in principle, but says Tebow was a good passer in 6 out of 11 games anyway. Again, that merits a closer look to see why, and also once again, the answer is "because he was so GOOD at getting first downs and touch downs that he even does good in the completion percentage obsessed stat." In order to say he's been a bad passer for the season we must throw out TDs, interceptions and YPA to JUST look at completion percentage--which is irrelevant without those other three stats.

THAT'S why I cited those stats (and, as I said, because I don't want to begin another subjective analysis of each blown play just to have each explained with "Tebow sucks.")

Also, lets be realistic and understand that Tim is not going to get "intensive one-on-one" training with Elway. Elway isn't a coach, and he's not going to be a coach. He might spend an afternoon helping, and might spend some time talking with Tim and giving advice...but he's not going to spend hours and hours in the offseason working with the QBs. That's not his job.
When Elway said--multiple times--that he's going to work with Tebow in the offseason, I took him at his word, and credited him with enough sense to know as well as we Tebow needs a LOT more help than he can offer in an afternoon or over tea after a friendly golf game. Elway knows Tebow needs a ton of work, and knows where a lot better than you or I; Tebow, for his part, is an enthusiastic and indefatigable student with all the physical and mental ability, only lacking that training. I expect big results, and think Elway does, too; I KNOW we'll have a different QB next season--either Tebow will be much better or we'll get someone who is.

But OK, I can agree to disagree; I doubt either of us will change the others mind at this point, and we won't know who's right before next fall at the earliest, so we might as well sit back, enjoy the playoff ride, and wait.

Northman
01-05-2012, 06:48 PM
Also, as too "pulling the trigger". That wasnt que for throw for 500 yds on them, its about not hesitating when a man is open or not being afraid to throw in tight windows. If your going to be a QB in the NFL you need to be able to pass the ball and make plays.

Elevation inc
01-05-2012, 06:53 PM
i must be a loser. im on vacation overseas, its 1 AM where I am and im still deadset on arguing these topics...HAHA my wife just told me she is going to sleep and i need to get a life....HAHAHAHA

Northman
01-05-2012, 06:55 PM
i must be a loser. im on vacation overseas, its 1 AM where I am and im still deadset on arguing these topics...HAHA my wife just told me she is going to sleep and i need to get a life....HAHAHAHA


Women just dont understand.....

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