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NightTerror218
01-03-2012, 12:38 PM
I am curious why our offense is so bad. The two elders on offense are McGahee, Clady and Kuper. The rest are young bucks in 3rd season or less.

Ugly offensive play calling. Which leaves questions of why some plays are rarely called. TEs, where did they go in the passing game. I think this could be a key part of the problem. Way over conservative until they are playing catch up.

I have watched Tebow not pass so well last few weeks. Overthrowing again and when forced to make plays with his arm lately he has not been making good decisions. He waits until wide receivers are "wide open" rather then throwing when they are "1 or 2 steps" open.

Watch receivers drop many passes, they do the exact same move on every route. Not run crisp routes and unable to get very open. I really think a Vet WR would help.

OL doing well in run blocks, not so good in pass protection. But Mcgahee is also making them look better then they actually are, dodge missed blocks and still getting positive yardage.

I am glad we made the playoffs even though I dont do think this team deserved it. I think their record is better then they are and they were just put in the right place when other teams made bad mistakes. I do think that our offense needs to step it up to show what it can do.

Going into the draft right now i think offense may have the most needs and holes to fill. But I think Fox would still like to beef up his defense which has played off and on last couple weeks (eaten alive by NE and Buff).

What does anyone else think? I am just venting off the offensive woes.

VonSackemMiller
01-03-2012, 12:42 PM
Your 100% right, Tebow needs major work, WR core needs major work, OL needs work, Defense was playing over there heads and they need mahor work. This was a 1-4 team untill tebow got in the game and gave a lift. the magic ran out. now talent has to take over and well.....We dont have alot of that.

This draft will be big time because we can compete and make a big run next year if we add some DTs, CB, and some play makers on offense. And hopefully tebow takes the next step in his developement.

NightTerror218
01-03-2012, 12:45 PM
Your 100% right, Tebow needs major work, WR core needs major work, OL needs work, Defense was playing over there heads and they need mahor work. This was a 1-4 team untill tebow got in the game and gave a lift. the magic ran out. now talent has to take over and well.....We dont have alot of that.

This draft will be big time because we can compete and make a big run next year if we add some DTs, CB, and some play makers on offense. And hopefully tebow takes the next step in his developement.

Tebow is part of the problem too. After this off season with real work from QB coaches and Elway all summer. He should be more fundamentally sound and improved. If not well barkley will be in next years draft and after last years draft and this years most teams will be sitting on young QBs besides us.

VonSackemMiller
01-03-2012, 12:50 PM
Im not that sold on Barkley being the guy. I watch the guy play and he didnt look like anything special to me. but well see.

Id rather draft Weeden from OKSU this year in the 3rd or 4th and already have him on the squad incase tebow comes out next year and isnt looking like all the off season work helped. Weedens going to be pretty good. He would probably be a 1st or 2nd round pick if he wasnt already 27 years old.

NightTerror218
01-03-2012, 12:59 PM
Im not that sold on Barkley being the guy. I watch the guy play and he didnt look like anything special to me. but well see.

Id rather draft Weeden from OKSU this year in the 3rd or 4th and already have him on the squad incase tebow comes out next year and isnt looking like all the off season work helped. Weedens going to be pretty good. He would probably be a 1st or 2nd round pick if he wasnt already 27 years old.

I would rather wait till near the draft and see how Tebow has progressed the summer. elway said he is going to work with Tebow. So he will have first had experience on his progress. If Tebow is not improving i do think they will aim for a higher QB then fans may want. Or he may trade with SF back up Kirepatrick who did not end up replacing Smith who is playing well this season and let him and TT fight it out.

blamkin86
01-03-2012, 01:04 PM
You know, I'm only a casual fan but based on what I've seen the past few games, I think you're spot on.

TE's: I remember Rosario not getting enough credit for one of our wins along the way - he caught a throw in the dirt on 4th down at some point and we went on to win.

As far as the draft; I usually suck at picking - but God, we just have to keep going on defense.

You can downplay Lloyd all you like, but we let him go and he was working with that "other" quarterback. Getting another receiver seems like a total waste.

Ball and Johnson seem servicable. I wouldn't waste a pick replacing either of them. Maybe we could get something for Knowshon...

Maybe if there's a great TE on the board when we pick... but personally our young safeties seem suspect to me.

No I'm not an authority; this is just my knowledge from listening to the announcers during games.

red98
01-03-2012, 01:15 PM
I am curious why our offense is so bad. The two elders on offense are McGahee, Clady and Kuper. The rest are young bucks in 3rd season or less.

Ugly offensive play calling. Which leaves questions of why some plays are rarely called. TEs, where did they go in the passing game. I think this could be a key part of the problem. Way over conservative until they are playing catch up.

I have watched Tebow not pass so well last few weeks. Overthrowing again and when forced to make plays with his arm lately he has not been making good decisions. He waits until wide receivers are "wide open" rather then throwing when they are "1 or 2 steps" open.

Watch receivers drop many passes, they do the exact same move on every route. Not run crisp routes and unable to get very open. I really think a Vet WR would help.

OL doing well in run blocks, not so good in pass protection. But Mcgahee is also making them look better then they actually are, dodge missed blocks and still getting positive yardage.

I am glad we made the playoffs even though I dont do think this team deserved it. I think their record is better then they are and they were just put in the right place when other teams made bad mistakes. I do think that our offense needs to step it up to show what it can do.

Going into the draft right now i think offense may have the most needs and holes to fill. But I think Fox would still like to beef up his defense which has played off and on last couple weeks (eaten alive by NE and Buff).

What does anyone else think? I am just venting off the offensive woes.

I think Allen has done a much better job with the defense than McCoy has with the offense. It looks like Tebow gets another off-season so I would say grab OL in the draft, RB in FA and another QB somewhere and put most of the draft into the defense.

I mean if a great WR falls to us somewhere go for it, but we know if we can grab some more talent for the defense Allen and Fox will make the most of them.

McCoy, Tebow, TE, OL and WR all need more time to develop and a monster defense will help that effort and be fun to watch (since only a couple teams seem to care about defense nowadays).

NightTerror218
01-03-2012, 01:25 PM
I think Allen has done a much better job with the defense than McCoy has with the offense. It looks like Tebow gets another off-season so I would say grab OL in the draft, RB in FA and another QB somewhere and put most of the draft into the defense.

I mean if a great WR falls to us somewhere go for it, but we know if we can grab some more talent for the defense Allen and Fox will make the most of them.

McCoy, Tebow, TE, OL and WR all need more time to develop and a monster defense will help that effort and be fun to watch (since only a couple teams seem to care about defense nowadays).

I want McCoy gone. He was a puppet with string for McD and then was given power for first time this season. I think Fox is making more decisions then McCoy is. We have exact same game plan in beginning of every game. Run Run run and throw 6 passes is there for first half. I want a coach who can utilize the QB, TEs, RBs and WRs better for their talents. On passing plays we have max protection and only have 3 WRs against their LBs, CBs and S. We we wonder why we have no open WRs open. We have not been running spread as much to get more single coverage on WRs and the option seems to have been figured out or they just do not want Tebow to run as much.

Northman
01-03-2012, 01:32 PM
Basically it comes down to this,

McCoy can only work with what he has. Clearly, neither he nor Fox think that Tebow can pass very well and pass consistently to trust him enough to win games that way. So therefore the entire offense expects Tebow to run 90% of time which affects the way the receivers run routes, Olineman running downfield, etc.

But, my problems with McCoy is he doesnt know how to utilize the TE's he has. Maybe they just flat out suck i dont know but he doesnt use them as a dump off for Tebow as it is and thats a problem. Furthermore, the lack of 4-5 spreads recently has made it increasingly difficult for Tebow to find any running lanes when he does choose to run. Thats also a problem.

But, in the grand scheme of things it just seems that none of them have faith in Tebow to make good decisions with the ball and thus keep it close to the vest in hopes he doesnt turn the ball over. In the 7 wins he was able to do that, but in the last 3 losses he hasnt taken care of the ball and it has bit us in the ass.

Considering the history with Fox i think McCoy will stay but that he will expect Fox to get a QB for whom he can open the playbook up more for. So if they decide to make any moves i think Tebow gets traded instead of McCoy getting dumped.

BroncoStud
01-03-2012, 01:34 PM
We need some freaking speed on offense. Decker and Thomas are SO slow, get someone who can run reverses, sweeps, quick hitters, screens...

Just imagine how much more dynamic our offense would be with a Harvin/Sproles type player in the utility...

We are too slow to run effective option and lack the QB/WRs to run a passing system. On top of that McCoy calls plays like he has never even seen a football game in his life.

NightTerror218
01-03-2012, 01:34 PM
Basically it comes down to this,

McCoy can only work with what he has. Clearly, neither he nor Fox think that Tebow can pass very well and pass consistently to trust him enough to win games that way. So therefore the entire offense expects Tebow to run 90% of time which affects the way the receivers run routes, Olineman running downfield, etc.

But, my problems with McCoy is he doesnt know how to utilize the TE's he has. Maybe they just flat out suck i dont know but he doesnt use them as a dump off for Tebow as it is and thats a problem. Furthermore, the lack of 4-5 spreads recently has made it increasingly difficult for Tebow to find any running lanes when he does choose to run. Thats also a problem.

But, in the grand scheme of things it just seems that none of them have faith in Tebow to make good decisions with the ball and thus keep it close to the vest in hopes he doesnt turn the ball over. In the 7 wins he was able to do that, but in the last 3 losses he hasnt taken care of the ball and it has bit us in the ass.

Considering the history with Fox i think McCoy will stay but that he will expect Fox to get a QB for whom he can open the playbook up more for. So if they decide to make any moves i think Tebow gets traded instead of McCoy getting dumped.

It seems like that until they have to play catch up and then its throw throw throw. But we are still doing max protection and no screens or dumps because they are too busy blocking 4-5 guys with our 8.

Northman
01-03-2012, 01:36 PM
We need some freaking speed on offense. Decker and Thomas are SO slow, get someone who can run reverses, sweeps, quick hitters, screens...

Just imagine how much more dynamic our offense would be with a Harvin/Sproles type player in the utility...

We are too slow to run effective option and lack the QB/WRs to run a passing system. On top of that McCoy calls plays like he has never even seen a football game in his life.

Wouldnt matter if we had Sproles/Harvin. We dont have a QB that scares secondaries. With 8 men in the box a Sproles or Harvin would just go to waste. Got to have a QB who can stretch the field and make them pay for stacking the box.

NightTerror218
01-03-2012, 01:41 PM
Wouldnt matter if we had Sproles/Harvin. We dont have a QB that scares secondaries. With 8 men in the box a Sproles or Harvin would just go to waste. Got to have a QB who can stretch the field and make them pay for stacking the box.

We dont have the play calling that helps many QBs. We dont call short passes very often. We dont use TEs any more. We make 3/4 of the offense block front 3 or 4 rather then letting our OL handle them.

Northman
01-03-2012, 01:46 PM
We dont have the play calling that helps many QBs. We dont call short passes very often. We dont use TEs any more. We make 3/4 of the offense block front 3 or 4 rather then letting our OL handle them.

Yes, but the play calling is somewhat based off what the QB can execute. Im becoming more and more convinced that Tebow just isnt able to execute the plays they want to run so they scale everything back as possible. I mean, we've seen Tebow clearly overthrow a RB coming out of the backfield by about 10 feet in the air. It would seem the lack of progressing through his reads and indecisiveness has forced McCoy to keep max protect because Tebow is looking at one receiver and then running.

NightTerror218
01-03-2012, 01:49 PM
Yes, but the play calling is somewhat based off what the QB can execute. Im becoming more and more convinced that Tebow just isnt able to execute the plays they want to run so they scale everything back as possible. I mean, we've seen Tebow clearly overthrow a RB coming out of the backfield by about 10 feet in the air. It would seem the lack of progressing through his reads and indecisiveness has forced McCoy to keep max protect because Tebow is looking at one receiver and then running.

I have also seen him running for his life last few weeks. I mean he was sacked 3 times, hit 14 in 3 1/2 quarters against Buffalo. He is just not getting the projection. He has also stepped up in the pocket to only get smashed. 1st half is all run and second is mostly pass in last 2 games. I mean what is the game plan why be so dramatic in play calling. I would not call that scaling back. In 1st half he normally has under 10 passes and has been finishing games in mid 20s. 2/3 or more of his passes are in 2nd half.

He also had made bad passes, I do not contest that at all.

Northman
01-03-2012, 01:57 PM
I have also seen him running for his life last few weeks. I mean he was sacked 3 times, hit 14 in 3 1/2 quarters against Buffalo. He is just not getting the projection. He has also stepped up in the pocket to only get smashed. 1st half is all run and second is mostly pass in last 2 games. I mean what is the game plan why be so dramatic in play calling. I would not call that scaling back. In 1st half he normally has under 10 passes and has been finishing games in mid 20s. 2/3 or more of his passes are in 2nd half.

He also had made bad passes, I do not contest that at all.


To be honest, the Buffalo game was the only one where i saw him running for his life. That doesnt mean that he doesnt face a rush in other games but the one vs Buff was the worst. But that was also because they were able to pin their ears back knowing he had to pass to catch up. But with KC he had time but he was holding onto the ball way too long, much like what we saw against Detroit. Obviously, his numbers are going to go up passing wise as the game starts to close. While i do place some blame on McCoy i just dont think he has much of a choice. I think the coaches thought he would be better at this point than he is and after the Minny game i thought he was well on his way. But ever since the second quarter of the Pats game his play and mentality has really been shaken. Then following the Buff game i think both Fox/McCoy and Tebow got really scared and in the KC game it showed both in playcalling and Tebow's play.

NightTerror218
01-03-2012, 02:04 PM
To be honest, the Buffalo game was the only one where i saw him running for his life. That doesnt mean that he doesnt face a rush in other games but the one vs Buff was the worst. But that was also because they were able to pin their ears back knowing he had to pass to catch up. But with KC he had time but he was holding onto the ball way too long, much like what we saw against Detroit. Obviously, his numbers are going to go up passing wise as the game starts to close. While i do place some blame on McCoy i just dont think he has much of a choice. I think the coaches thought he would be better at this point than he is and after the Minny game i thought he was well on his way. But ever since the second quarter of the Pats game his play and mentality has really been shaken. Then following the Buff game i think both Fox/McCoy and Tebow got really scared and in the KC game it showed both in playcalling and Tebow's play.

That is possible but I do not see any changes in offense and I have not see them adjust to any team. They seem to think it will work on everyone mentality. Or we will adjust at half time. Tebow was running a lot against Chiefs and threw away a lot. But the WR were just not getting open. Some double moves and max protection. No screens, outs, or short slants. No TEs being used in passing game. And QB waiting for wide open receivers to pop up.

It is a offensive jumbled mess that is not working. If a team has a defensive minded coach you need a strong minded OC to offset it. You can have a rookie play caller who seems lost.

G_Money
01-03-2012, 02:29 PM
Broncos offensive woes:

- Tebow is not accurate and takes too long to go through his progressions. He cannot throw to a window on the field before a receiver makes his break and complete a pass.

My solution: Broncos need to run hook routes, more passes to backs (how do those plays to Jeremiah Johnson go? Why do they only happen once a game?) and slants over the middle. A pass-catching TE would be a godsend.

Broncos solution: Every pass play is 30 yards downfield and Tim looks long first, rarely checking down (not that a lot of his checkdowns are open, but when they are he misses them)
Reason Broncos solution isn’t working: Tim is used to throwing on 3rd and long so he feels like the passing game must achieve long chunks of yardage. His receivers cannot get open down field and are so unused to catching that they drop the good passes he does make. He has no safety-blanket TE to help.

Tim is a 60% thrower on 1-10 yard passes, and 75% behind the LOS. He’s thrown more than half his passes (129 vs 118) over 10 yards. For comparison, Drew Brees throws 2/3 of his passes within 10 yards of the LOS. We are making a less-accurate passer throw deeper routes to receivers who can’t get open. It’s massively inefficient. You can say that we don’t do short passes because Tim can’t hit them and they require better timing and precision footwork, but the fact remains: longer throws are harder than shorter throws, and Tim throws a higher percentage of long throws than almost any QB in the league.

Other problems include:
- We cannot convert third downs (long OR short, even when a “#1 rushing attack” SHOULD be able to convert). It’s a line (blocking) problem, and either a playcalling or execution issue as much as it is Tim. If our 1st down run does not work we’re in big trouble, which is a bad situation for any offense.

- We’ve been turning the ball over like crazy the last 3 weeks after taking very good care of it earlier. A lot of it has been fumbles, which CANNOT happen in a ball-control running offense.

- Dreary playcalling (not just on 3rd down) from a coach who is asking his QB to tell him how to run the offense. Peyton Manning was an inefficient turnover machine his first 16 games, and he’s probably the greatest play-calling QB that’s ever lived. They didn’t ask him to call the offense his first year or instruct his OC in how to design plays.

You can’t make Tim a game-manager who can run, then tell him not to run and to make lots of risky throws. He’s one of the most accurate college QBs that ever played and who should be automatic in short-yardage or goal line situations, yet we can’t convert 3rd downs and his passing attempts can be woeful. If we’re tailoring this offense to what Tim can do best, then it appears that the rest of our team can’t do it at all, so we have decisions to make on our personnel.

- Because IMO, we're the least talented team in the AFC West. That's at QB and nearly every other position grouping. Tim is currently a bad pro QB. He happens to be a bad pro QB on a team that's bad at pass protection and short-yardage run-blocking, has receivers who cannot get open or catch footballs, and is thin and undertalented. We have work to do. Hopefully the Broncos realize this and don't take a playoff appearance as an indication of talent.

Tim can still be the guy to lead this offense, but we definitely have work to do.

~G

CoachChaz
01-03-2012, 02:35 PM
The rebuilding project will not be complete in one year. Seems like I've said that before along with a few others. Yes...in that one year, we magically made the playoffs, but we're not done. We still have A LOT of holes to fill as G excellently described. OL, RB, WR, TE and the defense in general. Another year or two of adding talent, developing players and finding an OC with a clue and we'll be in good shape.

Until then...we can be as blind as we want...it's not going to change the truth

vandammage13
01-03-2012, 02:56 PM
I don't want to sound like I'm completely puttin the blame on the playcalling and making a cop-out for Tebow (Tebow's inadequacies the last few weeks have cost us, for sure), but I don't think the playcalling is doing TT any favors given his current limitations.

I understand McCoy/Fox are trying to play to our strengths (running the football), and play it close to the vest, but the way they are calling the game is leaving absolutely no margin for error.

It seems like 90% of TT's throws are in no-brainer passing situations. TT is already limited in what he can do at this point in his career passing-wise, but the playcalling is so predictable that everyone on the field and even in the stands knows when the Broncos will run and when they will throw, which only makes it more difficult for him.

The defense never has to guess whether we are going to run or pass...It is obvious to everyone what we will do.

I would like to see a little more play action on 1st and 2nd down, and for crying out loud, how about some quick slants, screen passes, or anything short to the TE's/RB's?

(Yes, I know there are a couple of instances you can point to where they threw on early downs before the last couple of drives, but I think I can count those with 2 or 3 of my fingers.)

Just mix it up a bit...Keep the defense guessing...We are so damn predictable a Big 12 defense could figure us out.

I think part of it is just Fox's conservative style, and part of it is them just trying to hide TT's deficiencies, but I just feel like they are so conservative that they aren't helping Tebow, they are hurting him...The result is the Exact opposite of what they are trying to do.

They are just overthinking it, IMO...Don't handcuff the kid and at least give the team a chance to succeed or fail without doing it for them.

BroncoStud
01-03-2012, 03:40 PM
Watch the Patriots...

How many passes a game does Tom Brady simply throw to his speed WRs for 5 yards or so and let them create yardage? I would venture to say that 50% or more of the Partriots passing game is actually performed near the 5 yard distance from the line of scrimmage.

So if Tom f'ing Brady is allowed to throw easy, high percentage throws that utilize mismatches and holes in the defense, why isn't Tim Tebow?

I'm sorry, our Offensive Coordinator SUCKS. He can't call a game to save his life. He is the WORST thing for a young QB, ANY young QB.

G_Money
01-03-2012, 04:27 PM
Tebow:
48% of all throws within 10 yards of the LOS: 64% completion rate
31% of all throws between 11-20 yards: 38% completion rate

Other semi-random QBs:
Cam Newton:
57% within ten yards, 72% completion rate
28% between 11-20 yards, 49% completion rate

Tony Romo:
69% within 10 yards (same percent behind the LOS as between 10-20 yards), 72% completion rate
21% between 11-20 yards, 56% completion rate

Matt Schaub:
72% within ten yards, 63% completion rate
18% between 11-20 yards, 71% completion rate

Matt Moore:
60% within ten yards, 68% completion rate
25% between 11-20 yards, 53% completion rate

Alex Smith:
73% within ten yards, 67% completion rate
19% between 11-20 yards, 54% completion rate

Joe Flacco:
65% within ten yards, 61% completion rate
22% between 11-20 yards, 49% completion rate


It’s pretty much a universal answer, a panacea for any QB question.

How do you protect a rookie? Throw the ball short.
How do you guard against a mistake-prone QB? Throw the ball short.
How do you head for the playoffs with a great running game? Throw the ball short.
How do you get the most production out of a mediocre talent? Throw the ball short.
How do you keep game managers on playoff teams from gumming up the works? Throw the ball short.

Throwing the ball either behind the line or within 10 yards of it is a HUGE part of nearly every passing offense in the league…except ours. We’re between 9 and 25% under the rates of every offense listed, and the offense that is only 9% has Steve Smith running deeper routes.

Tebow’s completion rate on short passes is better than Flacco and Schaub, and within shouting range of most of the rest.

Being inaccurate over 10 yards is only part of the problem – not being allowed to throw the ball short nearly as often as the rest of the league does is another huge component.

~G

vandammage13
01-03-2012, 05:19 PM
Tebow:
48% of all throws within 10 yards of the LOS: 64% completion rate
31% of all throws between 11-20 yards: 38% completion rate

Other semi-random QBs:
Cam Newton:
57% within ten yards, 72% completion rate
28% between 11-20 yards, 49% completion rate

Tony Romo:
69% within 10 yards (same percent behind the LOS as between 10-20 yards), 72% completion rate
21% between 11-20 yards, 56% completion rate

Matt Schaub:
72% within ten yards, 63% completion rate
18% between 11-20 yards, 71% completion rate

Matt Moore:
60% within ten yards, 68% completion rate
25% between 11-20 yards, 53% completion rate

Alex Smith:
73% within ten yards, 67% completion rate
19% between 11-20 yards, 54% completion rate

Joe Flacco:
65% within ten yards, 61% completion rate
22% between 11-20 yards, 49% completion rate


It’s pretty much a universal answer, a panacea for any QB question.

How do you protect a rookie? Throw the ball short.
How do you guard against a mistake-prone QB? Throw the ball short.
How do you head for the playoffs with a great running game? Throw the ball short.
How do you get the most production out of a mediocre talent? Throw the ball short.
How do you keep game managers on playoff teams from gumming up the works? Throw the ball short.

Throwing the ball either behind the line or within 10 yards of it is a HUGE part of nearly every passing offense in the league…except ours. We’re between 9 and 25% under the rates of every offense listed, and the offense that is only 9% has Steve Smith running deeper routes.

Tebow’s completion rate on short passes is better than Flacco and Schaub, and within shouting range of most of the rest.

Being inaccurate over 10 yards is only part of the problem – not being allowed to throw the ball short nearly as often as the rest of the league does is another huge component.

~G

That's actually an interesting breakdown...

Surprising to me that TT is actually more accurate than all of those QB's listed on passes between 11-20 (by a significant margin, too), and relatively on par with passes 0-10.

When you break it down like that, he's actually not that inaccurate, its just the passes he throws are low % deep throws in the first place....

Damn, I wish I knew why we don't try more short throws...You can't really say its because he can't make the short throws because the numbers don't say that.

I don't know if its because he's not finding the guys underneath, or if we just aren't running many of those type of routes...I'd venture to guess its a combination of both.

catfish
01-03-2012, 05:28 PM
That's actually an interesting breakdown...

Surprising to me that TT is actually more accurate than all of those QB's listed on passes between 11-20 (by a significant margin, too), and relatively on par with passes 0-10.

When you break it down like that, he's actually not that inaccurate, its just the passes he throws are low % deep throws in the first place....

Damn, I wish I knew why we don't try more short throws...You can't really say its because he can't make the short throws because the numbers don't say that.

I don't know if its because he's not finding the guys underneath, or if we just aren't running many of those type of routes...I'd venture to guess its a combination of both.

I think you might be reading it backwards. the first % is % of attempts, the second is completion %. Tebow struggles mightily from 11-20 yards which is where they throw more often than the rest of the nfl. Tebow matches up in almost all other distances

NightTerror218
01-03-2012, 05:36 PM
That's actually an interesting breakdown...

Surprising to me that TT is actually more accurate than all of those QB's listed on passes between 11-20 (by a significant margin, too), and relatively on par with passes 0-10.

When you break it down like that, he's actually not that inaccurate, its just the passes he throws are low % deep throws in the first place....

Damn, I wish I knew why we don't try more short throws...You can't really say its because he can't make the short throws because the numbers don't say that.

I don't know if its because he's not finding the guys underneath, or if we just aren't running many of those type of routes...I'd venture to guess its a combination of both.

Because it worked too well with Moreno's TD. And Johnson has done decent with those passes.

Dzone
01-03-2012, 05:36 PM
Tebow holds on to the ball to long, but how many interceptions would he have thrown had he slung it?

NightTerror218
01-03-2012, 05:38 PM
I think you might be reading it backwards. the first % is % of attempts, the second is completion %. Tebow struggles mightily from 11-20 yards which is where they throw more often than the rest of the nfl. Tebow matches up in almost all other distances

He also has the highest in the "other" percentage which i am guess is over 20 yards. Tebow is the only one on the list with behind LOS to 20 yards under 80%

vandammage13
01-03-2012, 05:43 PM
I think you might be reading it backwards. the first % is % of attempts, the second is completion %. Tebow struggles mightily from 11-20 yards which is where they throw more often than the rest of the nfl. Tebow matches up in almost all other distances

Yep...You're right...Thanks for the correction.

Still, the high percentage of those deep throws certainly contributes to his abysmal completion percentage...

Just as much reason to find some way, some how, to implement shorter, higher percentage throws.

catfish
01-03-2012, 05:43 PM
He also has the highest in the "other" percentage which i am guess is over 20 yards. Tebow is the only one on the list with behind LOS to 20 yards under 80%


http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/13200/tim-tebow

edit: correct, and I beleive the only one throwing more than 50% of his passes over 10 yards

vandammage13
01-03-2012, 05:49 PM
Tebow holds on to the ball to long, but how many interceptions would he have thrown had he slung it?

I heard the color commentator alluding to it during the game (it may have been Phil Simms, I'm not sure)...

He insinuated that after speaking with members of the coaching staff and Tebow that they are putting a lot of emphasis (maybe even over-emphasizing) not turning the ball over and playing it safe.

This certainly has to be in Tebow's head. I think the Broncos are becoming victims of their earlier success with not turning the ball over.

It seems like they are pointing to that as the recipe for their win streak, and now they are sacrificing taking chances to protect the football in hopes that it will continue their winning ways.

G_Money
01-03-2012, 06:17 PM
Tebow's less accurate on 11-20 yard throws than all those QBs - by about 15%. But his accuracy on the short stuff is in the ballpark with the rest of those guys.

It does make me wonder if part of the reason he's more inaccurate on 11-20 yard throws is because they are 3rd down pressure throws rather than 1st or 2nd down attempts. I suspect that it just feels that way however, since most teams should be throwing on 3rd down and when Tebow is ALLOWED to throw, he does it more on first down than you'd believe at first glance. They're just the wrong kind of throws.

He has accuracy issues, but so do a few QBs. They mask it by throwing short.

Look, Flacco's pretty middle-of-the-road in the #s I posted earlier. What happens if Tim threw with Joe Flacco's attempt-percentages for distance throws, but Tebow's completion rates at those distances? Here's how his #s would look:

Tebow with current percentages: 126-of-271 for 1729 yards, 46.5% completion rate.
Tebow with Flacco's percentages: 144-of-271 for 1624 yards, 53.2% completion

So you give up 95 yards on a couple of longer completions and gain 6.7% completion efficiency (in theory - the percentages wouldn't stay the same in fact, but you get the idea).

Tebow's completion rate would still be bottom of the barrel, but he'd be joined by a few other QBs instead of being several percentage points below the worst. Skelton, Painter, Ponder and Bradford would be within a point and a half, and Gabbert would be buried below.

He'd be in the picture for the raw QBs who need experience. *shrugs* It's not great, but with his running it's certainly looking better in terms of all-around contributions. Even more like Steve McNair, my pick for who Tebow can be.

If we ran the style of passing offense that even Blaine Gabbert (67% of attempts inside of 10 yards, 26% from 11-20) was running, Tebow would look bad but in-the-picture for a guy with one year's worth of starts.

It makes me wish we were running the spread option and not just the read option: there would at least be short throws in the system.

~G

Northman
01-03-2012, 06:19 PM
I dont see it G. Dont see it at all.

G_Money
01-03-2012, 06:33 PM
Don't see what? Tebow being more efficient if we threw more short passes, or Tim being more effective in a spread option?

As far as passing goes, it's all relative: He's not gonna turn into Drew Brees as far as passing efficiency goes...but then Drew Brees was never supposed to become this kind of passer either according to most people around draft time, and especially after his first couple of years in San Diego.

I just hate seeing Jeremiah Johnson rip off a 12 yard, hard-hitting pass and then for us to let that well dry up, never to be seen again in the game.

The late-90s Broncos didn't run a lot of plays, they just changed the formations they ran the plays from and let John pick his options and TD pick his cutback holes.

Creativity can be over-rated, but putting your team in a position to win individual battles against the opponent and to scheme for mismatches rarely is.

~G

Northman
01-03-2012, 06:35 PM
Don't see what? Tebow being more efficient if we threw more short passes, or Tim being more effective in a spread option?

As far as passing goes, it's all relative: He's not gonna turn into Drew Brees as far as passing efficiency goes...but then Drew Brees was never supposed to become this kind of passer either according to most people around draft time, and especially after his first couple of years in San Diego.

I just hate seeing Jeremiah Johnson rip off a 12 yard, hard-hitting pass and then for us to let that well dry up, never to be seen again in the game.

The late-90s Broncos didn't run a lot of plays, they just changed the formations they ran the plays from and let John pick his options and TD pick his cutback holes.

Creativity can be over-rated, but putting your team in a position to win individual battles against the opponent and to scheme for mismatches rarely is.

~G

Yea, nah. You make some valid points but i just dont see Tim improving enough to be a consistent passer. I know its still only 14 games but from what ive seen around the league im just not very confident that he can improve. Could be wrong but i dont really see it.

NightTerror218
01-03-2012, 06:43 PM
Yea, nah. You make some valid points but i just dont see Tim improving enough to be a consistent passer. I know its still only 14 games but from what ive seen around the league im just not very confident that he can improve. Could be wrong but i dont really see it.

Looking for Elway version 2?

G_Money
01-03-2012, 06:58 PM
Oh, that.

I wouldn't bet on that level of improvement either.

I hope he can, because it simplifies our team issues, but if you told me I HAD to bet on Tebow making the transition to accurate and successful passer for a perennial Broncos contender, or that Tebow would be out as the starter by the beginning of the 2013 season...

I'd bet on Tebow being out.

But that doesn't fix a problem. If Tim's not the guy, who says the next guy isn't Gabbert or Tarvaris Jackson or Mark Sanchez or Leinart or Vince Young or JaMarcus or Quinn or Beck or...

We have a lot of needs. I'd let Tebow try while I patch other holes, because we need all of our top draftpicks to work out. There's always the chance of being pleasantly surprised that way, and if Tebow fails it won't be from lack of effort. McNair was a poor passer for a few years, as was Brees. Then they figured it out.

I don't think the odds are good of Tebow figuring it out, but they ain't zero. Give Tim a B-Lloyd who always comes down with a ball that he touches, and a better short-passing game, and he won't look so inept.

It's a long way to go in this rebuild, as Coach said earlier. Don't keep switching QBs every year (had a QB controversy in 2009, 2010 and 2011) and focus on making the team better. Tim will improve, or he won't, but sadly we've got the time to find out.

We're not in our SB-contending window just yet.

~G

Joel
01-03-2012, 08:39 PM
I am curious why our offense is so bad. The two elders on offense are McGahee, Clady and Kuper.
I think THAT explains much of the offense: Our second "oldest" starter (was) in his 6th year, and the next one in his 4th. Not that each of your other fine points is any less valid or salient for that, but each by itself is a microcosm of the larger problem: The team, as a whole, is VERY young, largely consisting of untalented players who've played over their heads and (hopefully) quite talented young players who've not yet developed into stars. And because of the youth, a dart board is as good a means as any for identifying which is which.

They shocked the nation and won the Division anyway, but there's a reason so many people are nonetheless talking about "next season" as if this one's already finished.

The points you made about our QB, our WRs and our line (running AND passing) are all dead on, IMHO, and I'd start with the line, then move to WR. Tebow's shown me enough good with the bad that I want to play this out and see what happens after his first off season, especially once Elway's had the chance to give him a clinic. Far more importantly though, spending our best picks and biggest paychecks on another QB or two would inhibit our ability to improve other areas that need it as much or more. A much improved line would make our running AND passing better; whether our franchise QB is Tebow or TBA, he'll still need good protection and reliable receivers to develop into a quality passer. Remember three months ago when a DIFFERENT QB was a no talent bum we couldn't dump fast enough? Maybe it's time to change more than just the QB. ;)

Unless Harris and Franklin DOMINATE in tandem next weekend, Kupers injury and Harris' season of good performance has elevated G past DB at the top of my list of off season desires (mind, it's still close; Goodman helped by playing better Sunday, but has generally been bad all season.) Then an elite WR; maybe we won't trade him away after one or two seasons this time. Give Tebow the supporting cast he needs, both to succeed and to develop; if he STILL fails, whoever succeeds him will need them every bit as much for their own development and success. In the mean time, the whole offense will improve if our line does.

It makes me wish we were running the spread option and not just the read option: there would at least be short throws in the system.

~G
We should; it would give those 8 men in the box something to do beside tackle McGahee, watch Tebows running lanes or blitz. It's hard to do though when all our receivers are second tier, our TEs have to stay in for max protection and there are doubts about our QBs accuracy. I still wouldn't go with a TRUE option, because that's a sorry compromised solution that doesn't do anything well, but I WOULD like to have called passes and runs out of a spread, with the D forced to guess which play the whole offense is going to run on each down.

Oh, that.

I wouldn't bet on that level of improvement either.

I hope he can, because it simplifies our team issues, but if you told me I HAD to bet on Tebow making the transition to accurate and successful passer for a perennial Broncos contender, or that Tebow would be out as the starter by the beginning of the 2013 season...

I'd bet on Tebow being out.

But that doesn't fix a problem. If Tim's not the guy, who says the next guy isn't Gabbert or Tarvaris Jackson or Mark Sanchez or Leinart or Vince Young or JaMarcus or Quinn or Beck or...
Treating the QB as a panacea is what perennial losers do. As important as the QB is, he's just not SO important that a bad one can make an otherwise good team 4-12; if your record's that bad (as ours was last year,) you have MANY other problems to address. Addressing the same one over and over again won't fix your team, and the REALLY scary thing is, even if you DO find a star at that ONE position, you may not realize it because the rest of the team makes him look so bad. So you dump him on another team where he wins a couple Super Bowls, while you stay at 4-12, perpetually trying to solve ONE problem to the exclusion of all others.

We have a lot of needs. I'd let Tebow try while I patch other holes, because we need all of our top draftpicks to work out. There's always the chance of being pleasantly surprised that way, and if Tebow fails it won't be from lack of effort. McNair was a poor passer for a few years, as was Brees. Then they figured it out.

I don't think the odds are good of Tebow figuring it out, but they ain't zero. Give Tim a B-Lloyd who always comes down with a ball that he touches, and a better short-passing game, and he won't look so inept.

It's a long way to go in this rebuild, as Coach said earlier. Don't keep switching QBs every year (had a QB controversy in 2009, 2010 and 2011) and focus on making the team better. Tim will improve, or he won't, but sadly we've got the time to find out.

We're not in our SB-contending window just yet.

~G
The thing is, filling those many other large holes is a win-win, particularly on offense. Not only does it make big necessary improvements to a poor team, but NO young QB--Tebow, Elway, you name it--will develop without a decent supporting cast. If he doesn't have good protection he'll always be terrified in the pocket, ducking down to avoid sacks even when they aren't there or flinging passes out of bounds 4 seconds after ever snap. If he doesn't have WRs and TEs who can get open and make good catches, he'll never learn to "anticipate" brief narrow windows of opportunity that are never there. Without things like that Tebows development probably isn't going anywhere, but with them he might surprise us all. If he doesn't, well, they'll be there for the next young QB to whose development and success they'll be every bit as vital.

G_Money
01-03-2012, 09:22 PM
The thing is, filling those many other large holes is a win-win, particularly on offense. Not only does it make big necessary improvements to a poor team, but NO young QB--Tebow, Elway, you name it--will develop without a decent supporting cast. If he doesn't have good protection he'll always be terrified in the pocket, ducking down to avoid sacks even when they aren't there or flinging passes out of bounds 4 seconds after ever snap. If he doesn't have WRs and TEs who can get open and make good catches, he'll never learn to "anticipate" brief narrow windows of opportunity that are never there. Without things like that Tebows development probably isn't going anywhere, but with them he might surprise us all. If he doesn't, well, they'll be there for the next young QB to whose development and success they'll be every bit as vital.

Absolutely - and given my choice I still improve the OL first. Franklin is not a RT. Maybe he can be in a coupla years, but man could he be a crusher at guard RIGHT NOW.

If I could get an OL like this:

LT - Clady
LG - Franklin
C - Walton
RG - Kuper (be healthy, Kupe)
RT - Kareem McKenzie

I think that'd help a lot. And it'll let me know if I need to replace Walton as well the season after. It also makes Beadles and (hopefully) Harris into the good backups they should be, and suddenly we'd have OL depth that we don't currently have.

Then a RB and a TE with good hands and we might be able to get some traction on offense. I'd like a WR too but a pass-catching TE is more valuable, IMO.

My problem with replacing Cutler with Orton wasn't JUST with that move, it's that we alienated Scheffler, Hillis and Marshall at the same time, so we threw away our playmakers as well as the guy who gets em the ball.

And we drafted players who did not turn into playmakers. :tsk: This is a draft where we need more than the first pick to work out. It's a draft with a lot of second-tier, productive players in it and we need more than our fair share.

Free agents and draftpicks are gonna need to be well-chosen.

~G

rcsodak
01-03-2012, 11:02 PM
I want McCoy gone. He was a puppet with string for McD and then was given power for first time this season. I think Fox is making more decisions then McCoy is. We have exact same game plan in beginning of every game. Run Run run and throw 6 passes is there for first half. I want a coach who can utilize the QB, TEs, RBs and WRs better for their talents. On passing plays we have max protection and only have 3 WRs against their LBs, CBs and S. We we wonder why we have no open WRs open. We have not been running spread as much to get more single coverage on WRs and the option seems to have been figured out or they just do not want Tebow to run as much.
Lol.....

The two elders on offense are McGahee, Clady and Kuper.
:confused:
Was this a pickem'?
:D

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Joel
01-03-2012, 11:07 PM
Absolutely - and given my choice I still improve the OL first. Franklin is not a RT. Maybe he can be in a coupla years, but man could he be a crusher at guard RIGHT NOW.

If I could get an OL like this:

LT - Clady
LG - Franklin
C - Walton
RG - Kuper (be healthy, Kupe)
RT - Kareem McKenzie

I think that'd help a lot. And it'll let me know if I need to replace Walton as well the season after. It also makes Beadles and (hopefully) Harris into the good backups they should be, and suddenly we'd have OL depth that we don't currently have.
My only real reservation there is that RT seems to run about even with QB and WR for the position we replace most constantly. Foster was garbage, but I always liked Pears, and Harris evidently wasn't too bad, yet here we are with yet another rookie RT--but we may draft another one? Yick; it may be necessary, but at some point I'd like to get it right and move on to the next disaster on our roster.

Then a RB and a TE with good hands and we might be able to get some traction on offense. I'd like a WR too but a pass-catching TE is more valuable, IMO.
I think Jeremiah Johnson may be a real sleeper there; I REALLY like him in every aspect of the game: Receiving, pass blocking and as a speedy shifty change-up to McGahees tackle breaking pile moving power. Most of all, I like that he blocks, catches AND runs well enough I think he could be an every down back, so defences can't call "run" or "pass" based on whether he enters or exits the game.

My problem with replacing Cutler with Orton wasn't JUST with that move, it's that we alienated Scheffler, Hillis and Marshall at the same time, so we threw away our playmakers as well as the guy who gets em the ball.
Much truth to that, particularly given how unnecessary it was. That said the whole team--LITERALLY-- was expendable to get any of McDumbass' pets (and we sure got plenty; where are they now...?) And that he'd do it behind your back, then lie to your face if you found out anyway and asked him about it in private. Of course, benching Marshall AND Scheff in a fit of pique going into a game we needed for the playoffs probably told them where they stood with him, too. ;) Ugh, don't get me started on that guy; there should be a restraining order barring him from getting within 100' of any football player ever again. People complained about Shannys "dafts" but we could sure use a ton of the players McDaniels cut now.

And we drafted players who did not turn into playmakers. :tsk: This is a draft where we need more than the first pick to work out. It's a draft with a lot of second-tier, productive players in it and we need more than our fair share.

Free agents and draftpicks are gonna need to be well-chosen.

~G
For some reason I remembered you as being a fan of Beadles as well as Walton; apologies for the defamation of character. :tongue:

It feels really good to be in the playoffs again until I think about the roster. So many starters that would be lucky to be on the bench anywhere else, but all anyone wants to talk about is the QB. Not saying he's perfect, but unless we fill many other big holes we'll have this same argument about a different QB every other year for the foreseeable future. I wonder who Patriots and Packers fans blame for any and all losses; my guess is "DL" (because a DE is just a DT who lines up on the end. :rolleyes:)

But I'll always want to build from the lines; hopefully Kuper AND Clady are healthy and playing well next year, Franklin turns into a good player at SOMETHING, and Harris can be a solid RT for us again; then we have ONE problem on the line instead of FOUR, and our whole offense is much better. I'd still probably take a G early, then try to get a shutdown CB that would let us move Champ to F/SS, then try to get a WR who can perform immediately. We supposedly have cap room, and if we can pick up any FA stars at those positions I'd sleep a lot easier, but realistically I'd still want to draft a DB and WR; the great thing about free agent vets is they're known quantities, but the bad thing is they're costly and usually on the downside of their careers. Meanwhile, we still need a premiere NT and MLB, a versatile TE, a back who doesn't leave our running game in tatters every time McGahee stumbles gasping to the sideline after yet another punishing exhausting 5 yard run through as many tacklers... the list seems nearly endless.

Northman
01-04-2012, 12:18 AM
Looking for Elway version 2?

There will never be another Elway so no.

Northman
01-04-2012, 12:21 AM
We have a lot of needs. I'd let Tebow try while I patch other holes, because we need all of our top draftpicks to work out. There's always the chance of being pleasantly surprised that way, and if Tebow fails it won't be from lack of effort.

My only problem with this line of thinking is if your weak at QB and he cant hit the receivers than how do/will you know your receivers are worth a damn? If he holds onto the ball too long than you have everyone screaming the Oline sucks when technically they are just fine. For me, its hard to evaluate other talent when the guy who is in charge of getting the ball to them is a weak link. Does that make any sense?

Joel
01-04-2012, 12:34 AM
My only problem with this line of thinking is if your weak at QB and he cant hit the receivers than how do/will you know your receivers are worth a damn? If he holds onto the ball too long than you have everyone screaming the Oline sucks when technically they are just fine. For me, its hard to evaluate other talent when the guy who is in charge of getting the ball to them is a weak link. Does that make any sense?
You can see if multiple defenders are consistently and quickly in your backfield unless (sometimes even if) you max protect; they are. You can see if WRs rarely shake coverage to get open, or often drop balls; they do.

It's not as tricky as identifying whether "skill" players truly suck, or just don't produce because every play ends in a tackle 2 seconds after the snap. That issue is much bigger than just passing, because both running and passing well rests on that same foundation. McGahee is the only back we've got who doesn't have an abysmal average because he routinely goes down under a wall of tacklers at the line. He DOES still routinely run into that wall, but he's strong enough he can usually push it forward for a few yards anyway; he just gets REALLY banged up doing it 30 or 40 times a game. I'm leaving Tebow out of it because I don't want to get into... that, but I could note similar issues in the passing game. However, when Ball took a handoff against NE and gained ONE yard (maybe) before 1) A Pat LB tackled him, 2) A Pat lineman stripped the ball and 3) A THIRD Patriot fell on it in our backfield, Tebow was irrelevant to the equation. Tebow's only relevance to our run blocking is that, like McGahee, he's a big powerful runner who can shed tacklers and move piles despite poor run blocking.

Fix the demonstrably bad line and our whole offense gets better, whatever Tebow does or doesn't do. Fix that problem and whether Tebow is here or not in future years, the OFFENSE and TEAM will be much better.

Northman
01-04-2012, 12:47 AM
You can see if multiple defenders are consistently and quickly in your backfield unless (sometimes even if) you max protect; they are. You can see if WRs rarely shake coverage to get open, or often drop balls; they do.

It's not as tricky as identifying whether "skill" players truly suck, or just don't produce because every play ends in a tackle 2 seconds after the snap. That issue is much bigger than just passing, because both running and passing well rests on that same foundation. McGahee is the only back we've got who doesn't have an abysmal average because he routinely goes down under a wall of tacklers at the line. He DOES still routinely run into that wall, but he's strong enough he can usually push it forward for a few yards anyway; he just gets REALLY banged up doing it 30 or 40 times a game. I'm leaving Tebow out of it because I don't want to get into... that, but I could note similar issues in the passing game. However, when Ball took a handoff against NE and gained ONE yard (maybe) before 1) A Pat LB tackled him, 2) A Pat lineman stripped the ball and 3) A THIRD Patriot fell on it in our backfield, Tebow was irrelevant to the equation. Tebow's only relevance to our run blocking is that, like McGahee, he's a big powerful runner who can shed tacklers and move piles despite poor run blocking.

Fix the demonstrably bad line and our whole offense gets better, whatever Tebow does or doesn't do. Fix that problem and whether Tebow is here or not in future years, the OFFENSE and TEAM will be much better.

Unfortuantely i just dont see our Oline as being the worse problem here. Ive seen Tebow have plenty of time to throw the ball on many occaisions. If he's holding onto for too long than thats not an Oline issue mate. As for McGahee, i was one of the few who knew he would do well here this year but in a day and age where you need someone to spell your primary back i think we can get by with Johnson and Ball. Obviously they would have to improve their handling of the football but if there's any diminishment in the run game its because our passing game scares no one. You have to be able to exploit secondaries and you have to be able to pass the ball with much better efficiency than what we are.

Joel
01-04-2012, 01:20 AM
Unfortuantely i just dont see our Oline as being the worse problem here. Ive seen Tebow have plenty of time to throw the ball on many occaisions. If he's holding onto for too long than thats not an Oline issue mate. As for McGahee, i was one of the few who knew he would do well here this year but in a day and age where you need someone to spell your primary back i think we can get by with Johnson and Ball. Obviously they would have to improve their handling of the football but if there's any diminishment in the run game its because our passing game scares no one. You have to be able to exploit secondaries and you have to be able to pass the ball with much better efficiency than what we are.
Tebow does need to get the ball to more targets faster, and eat less sacks. But there's more to our offense than Tebow. Tebow doesn't make receivers drop balls, or drape defenders all over them. He doesn't let multiple defenders hit ALL our RBs at the line. He doesn't fall over and go thump at first contact like Ball (I WISH Ball broke tackles like Tebow.) There's more to our offense than Tebow, and a heck of a lot more wrong with it. Dump Tebow and you still leave his replacement with a crapton of problems; fixing them makes the whole offense and team better off whatever Tebows future.

If we MUST speak of Tebow, he'll never develop pocket presence running for his life, or develop "anticipation" of tiny temporary passing windows that never open. I can't speak for others, but in my case those are not excuses, but real and dire problems we MUST correct. Otherwise we'll still be having this debate while blaming next years QB for failure to develop in a situation where that's impossible.

G_Money
01-04-2012, 02:00 AM
I watched what happened to Sam Bradford when he had no OL. He got beat up, abused, and regressed as a player.

I remember Carr, a kid with so much promise who had his clock permanently altered by all that pressure and became useless.

I dunno, North - for me an OL is really important to every offense. And if Tebow can't take advantage of the one we build, it'll help the next kid not be wasted.

I agree, our passing game is in the trash, but I'm tired of switching out "skill position players" to no net good. We went from Cutler/Marshall/Scheffler/Hillis to Orton/Lloyd/Gaffney/Royal to Tebow/DT/Decker/McGahee and it's not getting us anywhere. If Tebow and McGahee are gone in a year or two but we still don't have a good OL, are we gonna be any better off with the next set?

Feel free to add skill guys wherever and however you can, but I want a solid base on that OL no matter who's on the outside or behind the LOS. A good OL can set us up for a decade - the only thing better is a franchise QB or a mastermind at DC, IMO.

We don't have Drew Brees or Dick LeBeau, but with a couple of tweaks we might be able to put together a fearsome OL. Elway/Sharpe/Smith/Mac/TD got the glory, but without Zimm, Nalen, Schlereth and Jones they don't get their rings.

~G

NameUsedBefore
01-04-2012, 02:27 AM
I don't know why you guys doubt Tebow ability to develop as a passer. He has shown streaks of great play and is unmoved by extremely high-pressure situations. Houston, Minny, New York, Chicago... games where the leash was eventually loosened and he played remarkably well; making all the pro-passes that are out there and against some tough defenses in those last three. I don't think people realize just how inexperienced and often times flatout untalented the offense really is. Tebow has some accuracy issues, but I think that's a result of the attempt to change his mechanics. I believe if we had kept a dependable receiver like Lloyd then things would be a lot easier. The team lacks one of the best things a young QB can have which is a dependable safety valve. A MJD, Ray Rice, Gates, Steve Smith, Harrison, Harvin, anybody like that. But there is nobody like that on this team. And when Denver's slow, plodding receivers can't shake anybody the only person normally available is Fells -- but he's usually blocking. It's just an ill-equipped, undermanned offense as a whole. I think Tebow would look leagues better with just one strong playmaker on offense.

Tebowtime2011
01-04-2012, 03:40 AM
I an surprised john elway doesn't step up and tell mccoy how important it is to use your tight end when he himself had a hall of fame tight end shannon sharpe I just don't see how the tight end us barely a factor our a target when tim tebow used his tight end as a big weapon this is a bad gamelan all the successful teams right now use their tight ends : packers, saints, 49ers especially partriots and lions it is just something that needs to be fixed

catfish
01-04-2012, 07:33 AM
I an surprised john elway doesn't step up and tell mccoy how important it is to use your tight end when he himself had a hall of fame tight end shannon sharpe I just don't see how the tight end us barely a factor our a target when tim tebow used his tight end as a big weapon this is a bad gamelan all the successful teams right now use their tight ends : packers, saints, 49ers especially partriots and lions it is just something that needs to be fixed

I think lway is going to stay out of the coaching. Not his job, hands off. Don't want a rep as a meddler

NightTerror218
01-04-2012, 12:17 PM
I an surprised john elway doesn't step up and tell mccoy how important it is to use your tight end when he himself had a hall of fame tight end shannon sharpe I just don't see how the tight end us barely a factor our a target when tim tebow used his tight end as a big weapon this is a bad gamelan all the successful teams right now use their tight ends : packers, saints, 49ers especially partriots and lions it is just something that needs to be fixed

That is not his job. He will evaluate the coaches with Fox but he will not tell a coach how to coach in the middle of a season.

NightTerror218
01-04-2012, 12:20 PM
I don't know why you guys doubt Tebow ability to develop as a passer. He has shown streaks of great play and is unmoved by extremely high-pressure situations. Houston, Minny, New York, Chicago... games where the leash was eventually loosened and he played remarkably well; making all the pro-passes that are out there and against some tough defenses in those last three. I don't think people realize just how inexperienced and often times flatout untalented the offense really is. Tebow has some accuracy issues, but I think that's a result of the attempt to change his mechanics. I believe if we had kept a dependable receiver like Lloyd then things would be a lot easier. The team lacks one of the best things a young QB can have which is a dependable safety valve. A MJD, Ray Rice, Gates, Steve Smith, Harrison, Harvin, anybody like that. But there is nobody like that on this team. And when Denver's slow, plodding receivers can't shake anybody the only person normally available is Fells -- but he's usually blocking. It's just an ill-equipped, undermanned offense as a whole. I think Tebow would look leagues better with just one strong playmaker on offense.

His problem is consistency. All QBs drafted can show glimore of hope but whether they can keep it week in and week out is the question. I dont want to go into a game and be wondering if its going to be a good day or a crappy day. I want him to be consistent. But whether that means he need to throw more to get into a rhythm, more dependable WRs, or screen/out passes like the rest of the league. He just needs to steadily improve and the last 2 weeks he was bad.

claymore
01-04-2012, 12:20 PM
Im sure Fox, McCoy and Elway know how important a TE is.

NightTerror218
01-04-2012, 12:24 PM
Im sure Fox, McCoy and Elway know how important a TE is.

in the running game yes. But fully utilize a TE i dont not think McCoy is doing that.

Northman
01-04-2012, 12:33 PM
in the running game yes. But fully utilize a TE i dont not think McCoy is doing that.

I think he was eluding too the idea that Elway had worked with Shannon Sharpe who did both.

claymore
01-04-2012, 12:44 PM
I also dont think Tebow has the mental skill set to do the things Fox or Elway want him to do.

He might be the Payton Manning of the read option offense, but that shit was only marginally better than the ghey "Wild Horse" that McD used. It fooled some for a minute, but now its silly.

Jsteve01
01-04-2012, 02:24 PM
Im sure Fox, McCoy and Elway know how important a TE is.

Actually clay if you look at Fox's track record his TEs have never been a focal point. Now that said Im really not sure how much Fox has to do with offensive game planning and play design, and our draft this year would speak to his wanting an athletic playmaking type TE with the signings of Thomas and Green.

NightTerror218
01-04-2012, 02:31 PM
I also dont think Tebow has the mental skill set to do the things Fox or Elway want him to do.

He might be the Payton Manning of the read option offense, but that shit was only marginally better than the ghey "Wild Horse" that McD used. It fooled some for a minute, but now its silly.

Now you think Tebow is dumb. Just how low are you willing to go to bash our starting QB WHO HELPED GET US INTO THE PLAYOFFS, for **** sake.

Joel
01-05-2012, 12:19 AM
I watched what happened to Sam Bradford when he had no OL. He got beat up, abused, and regressed as a player.

I remember Carr, a kid with so much promise who had his clock permanently altered by all that pressure and became useless.

I dunno, North - for me an OL is really important to every offense. And if Tebow can't take advantage of the one we build, it'll help the next kid not be wasted.

I agree, our passing game is in the trash, but I'm tired of switching out "skill position players" to no net good. We went from Cutler/Marshall/Scheffler/Hillis to Orton/Lloyd/Gaffney/Royal to Tebow/DT/Decker/McGahee and it's not getting us anywhere. If Tebow and McGahee are gone in a year or two but we still don't have a good OL, are we gonna be any better off with the next set?

Feel free to add skill guys wherever and however you can, but I want a solid base on that OL no matter who's on the outside or behind the LOS. A good OL can set us up for a decade - the only thing better is a franchise QB or a mastermind at DC, IMO.

We don't have Drew Brees or Dick LeBeau, but with a couple of tweaks we might be able to put together a fearsome OL. Elway/Sharpe/Smith/Mac/TD got the glory, but without Zimm, Nalen, Schlereth and Jones they don't get their rings.

~G
Without them I wouldn't be a Broncos fan, 'cos I'm all about the line. Too many years watching Warren Moon fumble after blind side hits 'cos our genius owner drafted guards every year, then never ran. And watching the early '90s Cowboys lines dominate their way to 4 straight Conference Championships and 3 SBs. Most of all, reading The Hidden Game of Football until the dust jacket's long gone and the spine's starting to separate. Unfortunately, from the stands it's far easier to see when a "skill" players screws up than to see which guys in the scrum blew blocks. Unless you know your stuff, have a good eye and really pay attention, blown plays almost ALWAYS look like the QB or RBs fault, and that's especially true when the problem's at G. You can see a tackle whiff a block on an edge rusher, but it usually takes a slo mo replay to show a DT beating a G.

The line is EVERYTHING. With a good line, good QBs and WR corps can compensate for a non-existent running game by throwing 40 TDs/year; a good back can compensate for a wildly inaccurate QB and WRs with hands like Flipper by getting 5 YPC and 25 rushing TDs. WITHOUT a good line a good QB AND a good RB still won't do much flat on their butts in the backfield. I'd rather have the line than the franchise QB, because the team will run AND pass better with them, but without them even a rookie who belongs in Canton can be PERMANENTLY scarred by poor blocking.

I could have as easily (and more relevantly) made this post: http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1504944#post1504944 here as in the other thread, but it goes for both. I want to link it here because The Hidden Game of Football is a book important enough it CAN'T be plugged too many times. In their chapter on the line they claim Jim Plunkett was a great example of a good young QB completely shell shocked by the poor pass protection he had when the Pats drafted him (if you remember what the Pats were like before Parcells, that makes sense; Tony Eason's probably the least known QB of the '83 class, despite making a SB.) Then the Raiders picked him up and he led them to a couple titles--but only after YEARS behind a much better line where he wasn't bracing for a hit as soon as he yelled, "HUT!"

NFL history is loaded with QBs who might've been great if the teams who spent high draft picks on them had bothered first assembling a decent line instead of expecting a great rookie QB to fix their whole awful team. If Tebow's not the Broncos future, whoever IS will need that line just as badly; until we have it we're just spinning our wheels. The same applies to some extent with young QBs learning to anticipate receivers breaks and confidence in their catching, but that can be compensated for if someone like Barry Sanders is running behind a line like Dallas had in the early '90s. Yet without the line you can do NOTHING, however skilled your "skill" players.

Joel
01-05-2012, 12:24 AM
I also dont think Tebow has the mental skill set to do the things Fox or Elway want him to do.

He might be the Payton Manning of the read option offense, but that shit was only marginally better than the ghey "Wild Horse" that McD used. It fooled some for a minute, but now its silly.
Everyone with first hand knowledge I've heard comment on Tebows intelligence has praised it; that's one of the several things encouraging me about him. He has the arm strength, smarts and work ethic to be a great QB so THEORETICALLY he just needs the training. He clearly doesn't yet have the mental or physical SKILLS, but does have all the TALENT. You're born with talent (or not;) skill is developed.

NightTerror218
01-05-2012, 01:05 PM
its sad when I think TO would help our offense

VonSackemMiller
01-05-2012, 02:19 PM
Or Lloyd and Gaffney.....Guys we gave away for nothing. If we kept them we wouldnt even be stooping so low to think of signing T.O lol.

NightTerror218
01-05-2012, 02:20 PM
Or Lloyd and Gaffney.....Guys we gave away for nothing. If we kept them we wouldnt even be stooping so low to think of signing T.O lol.

I never liked Lloyd he was a locker room cancer as soon as Tebow got starter. Gaffney was not great but our defense was the major issue last season so Gaffney was traded to try and fix it and make room for young WR. I was fine with that move too. But I did not expect WR to play so badly.

vandammage13
01-05-2012, 05:12 PM
I never liked Lloyd he was a locker room cancer as soon as Tebow got starter. Gaffney was not great but our defense was the major issue last season so Gaffney was traded to try and fix it and make room for young WR. I was fine with that move too. But I did not expect WR to play so badly.

Too bad the guy we got for Gaffney hasn't played a down for us...Would have been nice to get somebody that would have at least contributed on special teams in exchange for a WR that ended up having nearly 1,000 receiving yards this year.

I understand the part about making room for the young WR's, but we got nothing for the guy in return.

Redskins fleeced us on that one.

Joel
01-05-2012, 06:00 PM
I never liked Lloyd he was a locker room cancer as soon as Tebow got starter. Gaffney was not great but our defense was the major issue last season so Gaffney was traded to try and fix it and make room for young WR. I was fine with that move too. But I did not expect WR to play so badly.
I disagree about Gaffney; I've always thought him very good. I can see the point of getting help on D, but not with a single player we cut at the end of TC, especially if we knew there was a good chance we'd be trading Lloyd, too. That's pretty appalling: Despite so little talent we finished next to last, we traded a Pro Bowl WR AND a solid starter for a fifth round pick. Unless it's a steal, we got mugged. :tsk:

NightTerror218
01-05-2012, 06:20 PM
I disagree about Gaffney; I've always thought him very good. I can see the point of getting help on D, but not with a single player we cut at the end of TC, especially if we knew there was a good chance we'd be trading Lloyd, too. That's pretty appalling: Despite so little talent we finished next to last, we traded a Pro Bowl WR AND a solid starter for a fifth round pick. Unless it's a steal, we got mugged. :tsk:

Gaffney trade was a risk because Jaron (what ever his name is) was a 1st rounder who EFX thought might be able to turn it around on a new team. He just did not impress once he got here. Sometimes 1st rounders rebound on next team after bombing on first.

VonSackemMiller
01-06-2012, 01:19 AM
Gaffney trade was a risk because Jaron (what ever his name is) was a 1st rounder who EFX thought might be able to turn it around on a new team. He just did not impress once he got here. Sometimes 1st rounders rebound on next team after bombing on first.

was a 3rd round pick not first. A TRASHY 3rd round player at that.

VonSackemMiller
01-06-2012, 01:24 AM
I never liked Lloyd he was a locker room cancer as soon as Tebow got starter. Gaffney was not great but our defense was the major issue last season so Gaffney was traded to try and fix it and make room for young WR. I was fine with that move too. But I did not expect WR to play so badly.

a locker room cancer to who though? with classy guys like tebow, bay bay, dawkins, champ, lloyd wouldnt have done a thing to this locker room. and he woulda been forced to ball and shut up because he was in a contract year. everything woulda worked out just fine if we kept lloyd and gaffney. like joel said a pro bowl WR for a 6th round pick initially, and a 1000 yard WR for nothing. EFX blew that.

NightTerror218
01-06-2012, 12:38 PM
a locker room cancer to who though? with classy guys like tebow, bay bay, dawkins, champ, lloyd wouldnt have done a thing to this locker room. and he woulda been forced to ball and shut up because he was in a contract year. everything woulda worked out just fine if we kept lloyd and gaffney. like joel said a pro bowl WR for a 6th round pick initially, and a 1000 yard WR for nothing. EFX blew that.

Lllyod had a slight pre-madonna WR attitude. He wanted to get paid top dollar and he spoke his mind in interviews. He was completely behind Orton as the starter because he was getting all the passes. He did not like the "Tebow thing" as he put it. He would have kept shooting off his mouth.