Setting the record straight on Fox and "his" offenses

[Jsteve01]

Can we please go back and look at Fox's history? The year the Panthers made the Super Bowl his qb threw for 3900 yards and 29 TDs. Situation and the players he's been dealt have dictated that he focus on a run heavy scheme since that time. I fully believe that if this team had the personnel and the staff to implement a more balanced system that you'd see it. Let's stop overstating Fox's aversion to the vertical passing game when history obviously tells a different story.

[rationalfan]

Agreed. Good coaches usually install gameplans that fit their players.

It's interesting how fox has been lauded by many for bravely going to an option attack that fit his QB, then is criticized for not opening up the passing game for a QB who's had MUCH more success running the ball than passing it.

[camdisco24]

People who talk bad about Fox and his final years in Carolina have little, to no understanding of that whole situation. He's a darn good coach when he is allowed to make his own decisions. Carolina is a horribly run franchise and John Fox got the bad end of that.

John Fox will develop a good team (with Tebow or without) we just need to give him time to get the personnel in order. He is in a good situation here where he can just be the COACH. Give it time. We've already seen a huge improvement in the defense and a lot of credit goes to Fox and Allen for that. Offense will get there, but he still needs a few more pieces. I'm pretty excited to see how we draft this year actually.

[Softskull]

During the first five games with Orton at QB, the Broncos threw the ball 58.3% of plays.

During the rest of the season, we threw the ball 38.1% of the time.

Fox will pass when he feels that he has the crew to do it.

[nevcraw]

with the playoffs on the line 3rd and long they run the ball that is not on the QB. that is play calling. or 4th down with 2:30 something left they punt instead on going for it with a clutch QB. that's on the play calling

[The Glue Factory]

with the playoffs on the line 3rd and long they run the ball that is not on the QB. that is play calling. or 4th down with 2:30 something left they punt instead on going for it with a clutch QB. that's on the play calling

And what was the field position at 2:30 - deep in our own end or past mid-field? How far did we have to get for the first - 1 yard or 9? While Elway converted lots of 4th downs in his 47 comebacks, he wasn't perfect either. There were times Reeves punted when down by 4+ in the waning minutes because the risk of the outcome should the fourth down not be converted would lead to more points on the board for the opponent.

[TXBRONC]

Can we please go back and look at Fox's history? The year the Panthers made the Super Bowl his qb threw for 3900 yards and 29 TDs. Situation and the players he's been dealt have dictated that he focus on a run heavy scheme since that time. I fully believe that if this team had the personnel and the staff to implement a more balanced system that you'd see it. Let's stop overstating Fox's aversion to the vertical passing game when history obviously tells a different story.

Excatly, at what his teams have done over the years and you'll see that he likes to have about a 1:1 ratio of run to pass.

[Jsteve01]

Excatly, at what his teams have done over the years and you'll see that he likes to have about a 1:1 ratio of run to pass.

he's often painted as a figurative NFL neanderthal who hates the vertical game. His two trips to the Super Bowl were on teams that could throw the ball. Something which Im pretty sure isn't lost on him.

[vandammage13]

Can we please go back and look at Fox's history? The year the Panthers made the Super Bowl his qb threw for 3900 yards and 29 TDs. Situation and the players he's been dealt have dictated that he focus on a run heavy scheme since that time. I fully believe that if this team had the personnel and the staff to implement a more balanced system that you'd see it. Let's stop overstating Fox's aversion to the vertical passing game when history obviously tells a different story.

This is what history tells us:

Fox's Offensive Passing Ranks:
2011: 31st
2010: 32nd
2009: 27th
2008: 19th
2007: 29th
2006: 15th
2005: 17th
2004: 9th
2003: 18th
2002: 30th

So one season out of ten where Fox's team ranked inside the top 15 should make us forget about the other 9 years?

I find it hard to believe that Fox only had one year in all his years as a HC where he had good enough personnel to pass the ball...(He did have Steve Smith and Mushin Mohammed for a number of years in Carolina).

2004 was an anomaly...Exactly half of his seasons have ended with his teams ranking 27th or worse in passing, if you really want to talk about history.

Face it, Fox is a defensive, ball control, conservative coach in a game that passing is now the way to go and defenses don't matter as much as they once did (i.e. GB and NE have the #31 & #32 ranked D's, respectively).

I don't want to say the game has passed him by (I believe the guy is a good motivator and manager), but his coaching style is archaic and has been well before he came here.

The fact that Fox opted to punt instead of kicking a 55 yard field goal when Prater can easily boot it from 60+ at Mile High during a 7-3 game tells us all we need to know about how conservative Fox is.

/End Thread

[Softskull]

This is what history tells us:

Fox's Offensive Passing Ranks:
2011: 31st
2010: 32nd
2009: 27th
2008: 19th
2007: 29th
2006: 15th
2005: 17th
2004: 9th
2003: 18th
2002: 30th

So one season out of ten where Fox's team ranked inside the top 15 should make us forget about the other 9 years?

I find it hard to believe that Fox only had one year in all his years as a HC where he had good enough personnel to pass the ball...(He did have Steve Smith and Mushin Mohammed for a number of years in Carolina).

2004 was an anomaly...Exactly half of his seasons have ended with his teams ranking 27th or worse in passing, if you really want to talk about history.

Face it, Fox is a defensive, ball control, conservative coach in a game that passing is now the way to go and defenses don't matter as much as they once did (i.e. GB and NE have the #31 & #32 ranked D's, respectively).

I don't want to say the game has passed him by (I believe the guy is a good motivator and manager), but his coaching style is archaic and has been well before he came here.

The fact that Fox opted to punt instead of kicking a 55 yard field goal when Prater can easily boot it from 60+ at Mile High during a 7-3 game tells us all we need to know about how conservative Fox is.

/End Thread

I dont disagree with you that Fox is conservative, but your stats are deceptive. Like TX mentioned, Fox over those years you highlighted has thrown the ball about 51% of the time. The fact that he did that with Delhomme, Clausen, Vinny T, and Rodney Pete shows he a braver man than I.

[Jsteve01]

This is what history tells us:

Fox's Offensive Passing Ranks:
2011: 31st
2010: 32nd
2009: 27th
2008: 19th
2007: 29th
2006: 15th
2005: 17th
2004: 9th
2003: 18th
2002: 30th

So one season out of ten where Fox's team ranked inside the top 15 should make us forget about the other 9 years?

I find it hard to believe that Fox only had one year in all his years as a HC where he had good enough personnel to pass the ball...(He did have Steve Smith and Mushin Mohammed for a number of years in Carolina).

2004 was an anomaly...Exactly half of his seasons have ended with his teams ranking 27th or worse in passing, if you really want to talk about history.

Face it, Fox is a defensive, ball control, conservative coach in a game that passing is now the way to go and defenses don't matter as much as they once did (i.e. GB and NE have the #31 & #32 ranked D's, respectively).

I don't want to say the game has passed him by (I believe the guy is a good motivator and manager), but his coaching style is archaic and has been well before he came here.

The fact that Fox opted to punt instead of kicking a 55 yard field goal when Prater can easily boot it from 60+ at Mile High during a 7-3 game tells us all we need to know about how conservative Fox is.

/End Thread

bam


or wait let's dig a little deeper. who were the qbs in the years you're referring to an injured Delhomme? How about Rodney Peete, Casey or a decrepit Vinny Testaverde? When DelHomme was healthy Fox let her rip. When he was forced to start retreads or an ailing Jake then he tightened up. It's really not that confusing.

[vandammage13]

I dont disagree with you that Fox is conservative, but your stats are deceptive. Like TX mentioned, Fox over those years you highlighted has thrown the ball about 51% of the time. The fact that he did that with Delhomme, Clausen, Vinny T, and Rodney Pete shows he a braver man than I.

Yeah...Doesn't really matter to me that much right now...I'm just happy we're in the playoffs this year.

I just don't think we'll ever win it all with him, but I'll worry about tomorrow tomorrow.

[vandammage13]

bam


or wait let's dig a little deeper. who were the qbs in the years you're referring to an injured Delhomme? How about Rodney Peete, Casey or a decrepit Vinny Testaverde? When DelHomme was healthy Fox let her rip. When he was forced to start retreads or an ailing Jake then he tightened up. It's really not that confusing.

I guess Fox has had more bad luck with QB's than anyone over the last decade.

[camdisco24]

bam


or wait let's dig a little deeper. who were the qbs in the years you're referring to an injured Delhomme? How about Rodney Peete, Casey or a decrepit Vinny Testaverde? When DelHomme was healthy Fox let her rip. When he was forced to start retreads or an ailing Jake then he tightened up. It's really not that confusing.

Plus, the last 3-4 seasons in Carolina Fox was given very little to work with as the Panthers front office cut way back on big contracts. He was basically given a dollar store budget, and it really showed. Carolina wanted a youth movement and they failed miserably at it, but I can promise you it wasn't Fox's idea. He likes Vets. That's why I think he was so torn with the Tebow situation...

[Jsteve01]

I guess Fox has had more bad luck with QB's than anyone over the last decade.

yeah I mean shoot. He's had a laundry list of big name players at the position. Guys you'd want to build a franchise around.

[Joel]

Can we please go back and look at Fox's history? The year the Panthers made the Super Bowl his qb threw for 3900 yards and 29 TDs. Situation and the players he's been dealt have dictated that he focus on a run heavy scheme since that time. I fully believe that if this team had the personnel and the staff to implement a more balanced system that you'd see it. Let's stop overstating Fox's aversion to the vertical passing game when history obviously tells a different story.
It was also the OTHER season where his team won 3 games in OT (no one else has EVER coached an NFL team to 3 OT wins in multiple seasons.) Which probably helps explain why that '03 Panthers had to win a FOURTH OT game in the playoffs just to reach the Super Bowl. Funny thing, when the team's down two scores late in the fourth, Fox even lets TEBOW pass some. He let Delhomme do it in the Super Bowl, too--but not until he'd Martyballed his way to an 11 point 4th quarter deficit. Then Fox rediscovered the pass and intitiating one of the biggest scoring sprees in Super Bowl history--but tying the game didn't force a fifth OT game, because he left Brady enough time to get in FG range. Maybe they should've tried passing before the fourth quarter (just a thought.)

Teams--even Foxs--pass a lot when trailing late. We already knew Fox will pass once it's the ONLY desperate chance of victory left. Be nice if he'd occasionally do it other times though, just to keep Ds honest.

If you want to look at his HISTORY, examine more than his best year. I believe the Panthers annual passing ranking under Fox has been covered, so I'll move onto another stat: He's had 3 winning seasons as an NFL head coach. Most seasons he was either .500 or a game BELOW .500 (which puts those passing ranks in perspective: His teams nearly always passed less than most DESPITE losing most of their games; correlation, or causation...?) We fired Shanahan for THREE YEARS like John Foxs CAREER.

[Joel]

he's often painted as a figurative NFL neanderthal who hates the vertical game. His two trips to the Super Bowl were on teams that could throw the ball. Something which Im pretty sure isn't lost on him.
I doubt being the losing DEFENSIVE coordinator in a Super Bowl taught Fox much about running an OFFENSE, or he wouldn't keep tell us every week that his offensive game plan is to react to whatever the other teams D shows him. Defences react to offenses, who have all the initiative in football, so I'd expect Fox to think that way--but offenses are not defences, and when he cedes the initiative to the other teams D he's lost just as surely as he won as DC every time he took the initiative away from the other sides offense. When he says we'll "adjust to what the defence does" you know that tells me? It tells me Dick LeBeau will be calling our offensive plays next week! You may well shudder; you certainly SHOULD.

Foxs ONE trip to the Super Bowl as HEAD COACH was with a team that needed FOUR OT wins to get there. And still only finished 18th out of 32 in passing attempts, despite trailing at the end of regulation in 9/16 games. Maybe they COULD pass well, but Fox NEVER let them try unless he had no other choice (and apparently, sometimes not even then.) If he learned anything from that second year as an NFL head coach, it hasn't shown in the eight years since.

Great DC, probably a good GM; he knows how to build, discipline and motivate teams. Very poor head coach, because he only comprehends one side of the ball. Think Wade Phillips. Shuddering yet?

[Medford Bronco]

This is what history tells us:

[B][U]The fact that Fox opted to punt instead of kicking a 55 yard field goal when Prater can easily boot it from 60+ at Mile High during a 7-3 game tells us all we need to know about how conservative Fox is.

/End Thread

I was so freaking pissed off when he had no balls to do that, when Prater has been great this season.. Gutless I said. If it were 7-6 we did get to the 35 one time and maybe Tebow does not take that sack and possibly a 9-7 lead:confused: who knows. but grow some or put Brady Quinn in if you are afraid to throw the ball, Run screens and use McGahee (MVP Of this team by far)

What do have to lose, a 20-3 type game to Pitt. What does that prove. It proves you got no balls.....

[Joel]

If it were 7-6 we did get to the 35 one time and maybe Tebow does not take that sack and possibly a 9-7 lead:confused: who knows.
I had the same thought after the sack; If we'd taken the FG before the half, another throwaway might have won the game there. Maybe he was thinking about the block against the Bears; yet another reason to draft a G.

What do have to lose, a 20-3 type game to Pitt. What does that prove. It proves you got no balls.....
Yeah, we either go for broke and have a slim chance, or play it safe and have none. Foxs post-KC comment "once you're in the dance they can't kick you out" tells me we'll do the latter: PITT will kick us out of the dance.