PDA

View Full Version : Fox: Broncos passing woes "not just the quarterback"



Denver Native (Carol)
01-02-2012, 04:02 PM
While Denver needs everybody to step up for Sunday afternoon's wild-card round playoff home game against Pittsburgh, Broncos quarterback Tim Tebow comes off his lowest quarterback rating (20.6) of the season.

Tebow completed just 6-for-22 passes for 60 yards with an interception in the 7-3 loss to Kansas City. But don't pin that all on Tebow, Broncos coach John Fox said.

"There's a lot of moving parts to the pass game," Fox said today during his regularly scheduled Monday briefing with the media. "You've got protection, route, timing. You have to throw the ball sometimes to tight windows.

rest - http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_19660446

rcsodak
01-02-2012, 04:27 PM
Tight windows, and partially closed windows.
And hey....maybe not running backwards.....

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

rjent
01-02-2012, 04:41 PM
For some reason, our O line is just terrible. The receivers are as bad as they have been all year, but there is NO protection for Tim. I have noticed also that Tim seems very hesitant at running now, almost like he is being told to not run regardless of what he sees. To throw the ball or hand off. It severely limits what they and he can do. Tim has a long way to go, but I see a lot of seemingly limitations on TT that were not there during the "run"...

JMO

spikerman
01-02-2012, 04:45 PM
For some reason, our O line is just terrible. The receivers are as bad as they have been all year, but there is NO protection for Tim. I have noticed also that Tim seems very hesitant at running now, almost like he is being told to not run regardless of what he sees. To throw the ball or hand off. It severely limits what they and he can do. Tim has a long way to go, but I see a lot of seemingly limitations on TT that were not there during the "run"...

JMO

A lot of that hesitation to run is because of how he's now being defensed. Teams are more interested in keeping him in the pocket than trying to sack him. I remember one play yesterday where there was a safety to Tim's left. He didn't have anybody blocking him, but instead of coming at Tim he held his ground at the LoS which kept Tebow in the pocket. The idea is to not give him any running lanes and make him throw. He's not running because he has nowhere to go and he can't make teams pay with his arm. I thought he was getting to the point where he could, but he's taken a big step back.

rjent
01-02-2012, 04:52 PM
A lot of that hesitation to run is because of how he's now being defensed. Teams are more interested in keeping him in the pocket than trying to sack him. I remember one play yesterday where there was a safety to Tim's left. He didn't have anybody blocking him, but instead of coming at Tim he held his ground at the LoS which kept Tebow in the pocket. The idea is to not give him any running lanes and make him throw. He's not running because he has nowhere to go and he can't make teams pay with his arm. I thought he was getting to the point where he could, but he's taken a big step back.

You may be right, but I saw two occasions of an absolute open center of the field that he would probably would have run at least 15 yards or so, started to run then stopped and by then the pressure was on, missed opportunity. I will watch the game again and maybe see something else, but that was my reaction at the time ...

silkamilkamonico
01-02-2012, 04:57 PM
You've got "coaching" too, or, lack thereof in this situation.

elsid13
01-02-2012, 05:02 PM
For some reason, our O line is just terrible. The receivers are as bad as they have been all year, but there is NO protection for Tim. I have noticed also that Tim seems very hesitant at running now, almost like he is being told to not run regardless of what he sees. To throw the ball or hand off. It severely limits what they and he can do. Tim has a long way to go, but I see a lot of seemingly limitations on TT that were not there during the "run"...

JMO

Dude one point they held the pocket for over 10 seconds, I was counting. It a timing passing game and Tebow needs to get rid of the ball on the 3 and 5 step drops. There is protection, but it will break down when the QB holds the ball to long.

Npba900
01-02-2012, 09:32 PM
For some reason, our O line is just terrible. The receivers are as bad as they have been all year, but there is NO protection for Tim. I have noticed also that Tim seems very hesitant at running now, almost like he is being told to not run regardless of what he sees. To throw the ball or hand off. It severely limits what they and he can do. Tim has a long way to go, but I see a lot of seemingly limitations on TT that were not there during the "run"...

JMO

During the "run" teams did not stay in their lanes, use containment on the outside, and provide pressure up the middle, and Tebow took advantage of it.

However, as we seen the last 3 weeks teams have done just the opposite and have forced Tebow to beat them with his arm. And consequently Tebow has yet to show that he can win games with his ARM.

Tned
01-02-2012, 11:56 PM
I need to watch the game again, but sitting in the stands, I didn't see many open receivers on those plays where he was running around or got sacked.

threefolddead
01-03-2012, 12:23 AM
Eh, there was a play at the beggining of the game where Decker was wide open and Tebow didn't even see it and had all freakin day. I dunno. Say what you want but the fact is Tebow needs to start seeing the whole field. You don't get guys wide open like that all they time. When that happens you need to get the ball there. Period.

TimHippo
01-03-2012, 01:09 AM
You know it might help if you weren't so predictable.
run, run, pass,
run, run, pass
run, run, pass

bcbronc
01-03-2012, 01:38 AM
You know it might help if you weren't so predictable.
run, run, pass,
run, run, pass
run, run, pass

bad things happen whenever we waver from that formula.

Davii
01-03-2012, 02:02 AM
Like Fox said, it's on the whole offense. Just as much on Tim as the rest. Holding it too long, receivers not getting open, shitty play calls, bad throws, etc.

bcbronc
01-03-2012, 02:06 AM
Like Fox said, it's on the whole offense. Just as much on Tim as the rest. Holding it too long, receivers not getting open, shitty play calls, bad throws, etc.

More has to go on the QB imo. Not on Tebow, but on the QB. Just the nature of the animal.

That doesn't forgive the other 10 guys their sins, but the success/failure of an offense always starts, and sometimes ends, with the QB.

Davii
01-03-2012, 02:49 AM
More has to go on the QB imo. Not on Tebow, but on the QB. Just the nature of the animal.

That doesn't forgive the other 10 guys their sins, but the success/failure of an offense always starts, and sometimes ends, with the QB.

I agree. But here's the rub, if he gets more blame for a bad offense you can't cry foul when the fanbois give more credit than deserved. Works both ways.

Elevation inc
01-03-2012, 05:18 AM
Dude one point they held the pocket for over 10 seconds, I was counting. It a timing passing game and Tebow needs to get rid of the ball on the 3 and 5 step drops. There is protection, but it will break down when the QB holds the ball to long.

i know a couple of the plys you speak of and here is what happened royal and decker were split wide. mcghaee and Fells were also in. we sent royal and decker on deep routes, neitehr could get open. His checkdown options mcghaee and fells were in max protect a our 5 OL were getting owned by 4 DL....so he has no checkdown option, and his 2 wr's cant get open deep.

the following are at fault.....its 3rd and 4 why the f are we sending 2 wr's deep 15 yds on a 3rd and 4, thats a playcall issue. The fact our RB and TE checkdown options have to stay in for max protect becasue of those deep routes is a OL issue because our 5 OL cant stop 4 DL so yeah while it looks like our Ol gave tim ten seconds they did but our 2 wr's still couldnt get open and we had to have 7 blockers to stop 4 rushers. Then tebow runs around in a panic cause no one is open, and him running seems to be taboo now....the whole play blows up and we go 3 and out


you factor in that scenario and you have a QB who didnt know what to do, a OL who sucks, A playcaller who sucks, and WR's that cant do there jobs.....that happens on about 95% of our passing plays the last 3 weeks.....tebow has regressed no doubt but our entire offesne deserves to be benched to cause outside of mcghaee they all suck badly

missingnumber7
01-03-2012, 09:06 AM
Funny how he didn't mention play calling. Not once did I see a screen, flare, slant, or 5 yard out called. The pass plays were all 5 and 7 step drops with slow developing routes. Not what you want for a young qb who struggles to lead receivers and who can't throw then open against a zone defense.

Chef Zambini
01-03-2012, 09:22 AM
A lot of that hesitation to run is because of how he's now being defensed. Teams are more interested in keeping him in the pocket than trying to sack him. I remember one play yesterday where there was a safety to Tim's left. He didn't have anybody blocking him, but instead of coming at Tim he held his ground at the LoS which kept Tebow in the pocket. The idea is to not give him any running lanes and make him throw. He's not running because he has nowhere to go and he can't make teams pay with his arm. I thought he was getting to the point where he could, but he's taken a big step back.defenses WANT TT to throw the ball!
he is incompetent as a PASSER !
they want to keep him in the pocket where he has ZERO POISE and no skill at reading devfenses either before or after the ball is snapped.
TT looks like a scared rabbit ion a room full of wolves when in the pocket.
TEBOW is a fullback with QB responsabilities. end result is failure.

Chef Zambini
01-03-2012, 09:26 AM
Funny how he didn't mention play calling. Not once did I see a screen, flare, slant, or 5 yard out called. The pass plays were all 5 and 7 step drops with slow developing routes. Not what you want for a young qb who struggles to lead receivers and who can't throw then open against a zone defense.there is truth to this! ..and it may be that EFX is still sand-bagging Timmy, only now in a more subtle manner.
I have NEVER believed that ELWAY has wanted TT to succeed.
I think elway wants a legitimate NFL QB to lead his team and timmy aint it.

MOtorboat
01-03-2012, 09:26 AM
Funny how he didn't mention play calling. Not once did I see a screen, flare, slant, or 5 yard out called. The pass plays were all 5 and 7 step drops with slow developing routes. Not what you want for a young qb who struggles to lead receivers and who can't throw then open against a zone defense.

Remember the seven yard comeback? Tebow threw it behind the batter all the way to the backstop...

VonSackemMiller
01-03-2012, 09:27 AM
the bottom line is if teams are going to bracket tebow and build a wall around him not running the WRs have got to get open. were being played one on one! tebow has to get better at reading and delivering. but like john clayton said the broncos has regressed into a 2 WR set and its making it easier for defenses to play man on man and for defenses to build a wall around tebow. this ******* game plan sucks. run the spread McCoy and have tebow and mcgahee in the shotgun

Chef Zambini
01-03-2012, 09:32 AM
You know it might help if you weren't so predictable.
run, run, pass,
run, run, pass
run, run, passfor much of the tebow experiment the best ending to an offensive series was a PUNT !
once TEBOW turned into a turnover machine, the games were also lost !

My prediction for next week against the steelers?
if tebow attempts more than 15 passes we lose.

MOtorboat
01-03-2012, 09:34 AM
the bottom line is if teams are going to bracket tebow and build a wall around him not running the WRs have got to get open. were being played one on one! tebow has to get better at reading and delivering. but like john clayton said the broncos has regressed into a 2 WR set and its making it easier for defenses to play man on man and for defenses to build a wall around tebow. this ******* game plan sucks. run the spread McCoy and have tebow and mcgahee in the shotgun

Haha...spread...because Tebow can make the throws necessary in order to run it...

The receivers ARE open.

Chef Zambini
01-03-2012, 09:39 AM
tebow should do one of two thingson every play.
1. hand the ball off.
2 run the ball with conviction, himself.
maybe throw the ball around 8 times in the entire game, just for grins.
if we are down by more than 14 in the second half, bring in QUINN.
TEBOW is NOT going to PASS this team to victory!
every time he plans on throwing the ball, there is a higher probability that something bad for our broncos will occur.
I am not convinced that EFX actually want to win this play-off game, but if TT is allowed to throw the ball 20 times, I am convinced that EFX is giving TT enough rope to hang himself as the QB of the broncos future.

VonSackemMiller
01-03-2012, 09:39 AM
Uh tebow can definitly run the spread offense. Him dropping back and reading the defense all at once aint what hes about right now. its too much thinking. Along with all these deep routes. it aint working. when are we ever going to run the spread an entire game just to see what happens? it cant hurt obviously. I like tebows chances seeing the defense as soon as the ball hits his hands. i like his chances with a secondary trying to cover 4 WRs at a time and still be able to bracker and close tebow in the pocket with a safety

CoachChaz
01-03-2012, 09:42 AM
Haha...spread...because Tebow can make the throws necessary in order to run it...

The receivers ARE open.

I agree. More often than not there are other receivers open on most of the plays that TT forces. One of his problems is that he completely locks on to one receiver and never checks down. if we play a team with a good run defense and experienced, play-making safeties in the playoffs...we're in trouble. Hmmmm

VonSackemMiller
01-03-2012, 09:53 AM
I agree. More often than not there are other receivers open on most of the plays that TT forces. One of his problems is that he completely locks on to one receiver and never checks down. if we play a team with a good run defense and experienced, play-making safeties in the playoffs...we're in trouble. Hmmmm

orton was a 8 year veteran and locked into recievers, so was plummer. can tebow get a lil time to work on his mistakes? lord knows how many times cutler locked into marshall and threw it into triple coverage. it happens to young qbs. gotta let em learn!

Chef Zambini
01-03-2012, 09:58 AM
tebow has no poise in the pocket.
he has no pocket presence.
he cant read defenses BEFORE or after the snap of the ball!
he looks like a cared little bunny rabbit standing in the pocket.
His INSTINCT is to tuck the ball and RUN. He shouild trust his instincts because they are correct!
TBOW stinks as an NFL passer. He should not be attempting ANY thrtows in an NFL game! a gameplan that calls for Timmy to throw more than 10 times is just asking for disaster.

rjent
01-03-2012, 11:40 AM
Reading through this thread this morning, after a shower, breakfast and coffee :D, it struck me as deja vu all over again. :lol: I remember the exact same thing being said about Elway during his first year. Even Reeves was saying it in press conferences as to how John wasn't able to read, throw, decide. The game just got cranked up an order of magnitude for a very young (for all practical purposes rookie) QB, and he is struggling with the change. He has a weak O to augment his weak newbieness, and we are getting what we see.

I will still take a young man like Tim Tebow over other qb's like Cutler, Plumber, Griese, etc any day. I just hope he gets the chance to mature here in Denver. In the mean time, let the little F'er run the ball when he can, IMO it is still a better play than a handoff that the D is expecting, and maybe he will learn to not run so much .... :lol:

VonSackemMiller
01-03-2012, 11:49 AM
Reading through this thread this morning, after a shower, breakfast and coffee :D, it struck me as deja vu all over again. :lol: I remember the exact same thing being said about Elway during his first year. Even Reeves was saying it in press conferences as to how John wasn't able to read, throw, decide. The game just got cranked up an order of magnitude for a very young (for all practical purposes rookie) QB, and he is struggling with the change. He has a weak O to augment his weak newbieness, and we are getting what we see.

I will still take a young man like Tim Tebow over other qb's like Cutler, Plumber, Griese, etc any day. I just hope he gets the chance to mature here in Denver. In the mean time, let the little F'er run the ball when he can, IMO it is still a better play than a handoff that the D is expecting, and maybe he will learn to not run so much .... :lol:


Gotta respect a bronco fan since 1960. respect to you sir and your opinion. Youve seen it all heard it all from day one. :salute:

BroncoJoe
01-03-2012, 11:56 AM
Reading through this thread this morning, after a shower, breakfast and coffee :D, it struck me as deja vu all over again. :lol: I remember the exact same thing being said about Elway during his first year. Even Reeves was saying it in press conferences as to how John wasn't able to read, throw, decide. The game just got cranked up an order of magnitude for a very young (for all practical purposes rookie) QB, and he is struggling with the change. He has a weak O to augment his weak newbieness, and we are getting what we see.

I will still take a young man like Tim Tebow over other qb's like Cutler, Plumber, Griese, etc any day. I just hope he gets the chance to mature here in Denver. In the mean time, let the little F'er run the ball when he can, IMO it is still a better play than a handoff that the D is expecting, and maybe he will learn to not run so much .... :lol:

Amen, brother. While there are CLEARLY other NFL QB's playing right now I'd rather have, there are probably an equal number of them I'd take Tebow over.

It's still a grey area in my mind, as opposed to Black or White.

That said, I would welcome a drafted QB just like I did Tebow/Cutler/Griese/Maddox/Kubiak.

Well, maybe not so much Maddox... :)

Hell - I even was OK with the likes of Brandstater, Mauck, Van Pelt, Jackson, Lewis and Moore.

rjent
01-03-2012, 01:04 PM
Amen, brother. While there are CLEARLY other NFL QB's playing right now I'd rather have, there are probably an equal number of them I'd take Tebow over.

It's still a grey area in my mind, as opposed to Black or White.

That said, I would welcome a drafted QB just like I did Tebow/Cutler/Griese/Maddox/Kubiak.

Well, maybe not so much Maddox... :)

Hell - I even was OK with the likes of Brandstater, Mauck, Van Pelt, Jackson, Lewis and Moore.

X10 :2thumbs:

rjent
01-03-2012, 01:08 PM
Gotta respect a bronco fan since 1960. respect to you sir and your opinion. Youve seen it all heard it all from day one. :salute:

Thank you sir!

It has always been, on good years and bad, a fun ride! :dance:

catfish
01-03-2012, 01:09 PM
Eh, there was a play at the beggining of the game where Decker was wide open and Tebow didn't even see it and had all freakin day. I dunno. Say what you want but the fact is Tebow needs to start seeing the whole field. You don't get guys wide open like that all they time. When that happens you need to get the ball there. Period.

I think you are referring to the flea flicker play. Fox stated in his presser that the receiver ran the wrong route. I have heard a lot about how Tebow needs to anticipate his guys getting open. If the guy isn't where he is supposed to be how is that going to happen. Doesn't excuse 6/22, but bad example to knock QB play

NightTerror218
01-03-2012, 01:13 PM
I need to watch the game again, but sitting in the stands, I didn't see many open receivers on those plays where he was running around or got sacked.

Commentators were talking about how the WR do the exact same double move on every route. They mentioned that KC fell for those the first game but expected them this time and were able to stay close on the WRs.

VonSackemMiller
01-03-2012, 02:41 PM
Commentators were talking about how the WR do the exact same double move on every route. They mentioned that KC fell for those the first game but expected them this time and were able to stay close on the WRs.

Eric decker runs one route, the double move, bay bay came out of georgia tech running one route all throughcollege and that was a go route, eddie royal gets man handled. Again who are they foolin?

Joel
01-03-2012, 10:06 PM
bad things happen whenever we waver from that formula.
Excuse me? Nothing BUT bad things happen when we DON'T. Tebows contributions to every single game we've won since he started were with 1) his arm, 2) his feet or 3) both. We trailed all but one of those game until we stopped playing Martyball and opened it up with passes, sometimes accomplanied by QB runs, other times, not.

In the past three weeks of "now that we're all alone in first place, we should must stop taking chances and play to not lose," we have 3 non-not losses to show for it. We tried it against the Pats, racked up 250 rushing yards--and lost by 18 thanks in no small part to 3 first half turnovers, despite constant running. Only one of those turnovers was Tebows (and I still don't think THAT one was solely his fault.) We stuck with that to start the second half and had a respectable drive that petered out just past midfield and, when the Pats scored a TD on their next drive, left us down by 18 to start the 4th quarter. At that point, we were screwed. We tried it last week and our only score was on their muffed punt, after which we Martyballed to three and out before kicking a FG, losing a game where we only gave up 1 TD.

THIS TEAM IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO WIN A CONVENTIONAL PLAYOFF GAME!

Not "Tebow/the line/the receivers/the blitzing/the secondary is bad" but the TEAM. There's really no other way to put it; if we play a by the numbers, conservative, avoid-mistakes-and-keep-it-close-to-win-at-the-end game against Pitt or any team like them, they will destroy us, because they're a lot better at it. We must TAKE chances to HAVE a chance; we'll probably still lose, but "probably" is better than "certainly." If you want to play the percentages, the 2011 percentages say that when we play like we did in the 7 wins with Tebow, we win; when we play Martyball like we have since taking sole possession of first place in the AFC West, we lose every time.

Medford Bronco
01-03-2012, 10:08 PM
You know it might help if you weren't so predictable.
run, run, pass,
run, run, pass
run, run, pass

A pass on 1st down is an option, no:lol:

play action should work when you run for 200 yards, you think?

Medford Bronco
01-03-2012, 10:11 PM
Reading through this thread this morning, after a shower, breakfast and coffee :D, it struck me as deja vu all over again. :lol: I remember the exact same thing being said about Elway during his first year. Even Reeves was saying it in press conferences as to how John wasn't able to read, throw, decide. The game just got cranked up an order of magnitude for a very young (for all practical purposes rookie) QB, and he is struggling with the change. He has a weak O to augment his weak newbieness, and we are getting what we see.

I will still take a young man like Tim Tebow over other qb's like Cutler, Plumber, Griese, etc any day. I just hope he gets the chance to mature here in Denver. In the mean time, let the little F'er run the ball when he can, IMO it is still a better play than a handoff that the D is expecting, and maybe he will learn to not run so much .... :lol:



Please do not compare Tebow to Elway. Even when Elway struggled as a rookie he did play better at the end of his rookie season and was never afraid to throw the balll like Tebow is.

If he never gains confidence throwing he will be switched to TE or be strickly a wildcat QB at some point.

Medford Bronco
01-03-2012, 10:13 PM
I agree. More often than not there are other receivers open on most of the plays that TT forces. One of his problems is that he completely locks on to one receiver and never checks down. if we play a team with a good run defense and experienced, play-making safeties in the playoffs...we're in trouble. Hmmmm

Hello Pittsburgh, good call coach.

MOtorboat
01-03-2012, 10:15 PM
Eric decker runs one route, the double move, bay bay came out of georgia tech running one route all throughcollege and that was a go route, eddie royal gets man handled. Again who are they foolin?

This whole post is false.

Joel
01-03-2012, 10:16 PM
More has to go on the QB imo. Not on Tebow, but on the QB. Just the nature of the animal.

That doesn't forgive the other 10 guys their sins, but the success/failure of an offense always starts, and sometimes ends, with the QB.
That's the PERCEPTION, yes, but just because most fans can't or won't see anyone who doesn't currently have the ball doesn't mean those who know better should accept the childish view that "the QB is all."

bcbronc
01-03-2012, 11:11 PM
Excuse me? Nothing BUT bad things happen when we DON'T. Tebows contributions to every single game we've won since he started were with 1) his arm, 2) his feet or 3) both. We trailed all but one of those game until we stopped playing Martyball and opened it up with passes, sometimes accomplanied by QB runs, other times, not.

you're confused Joel. Having the opportunity to win the game with one good drive is exactly what Fox ball with Tebow at the helm is all about. Put another way, if Fox doesn't manage Tebow the way he has, there's no opportunity for Tebow to win the game late. We didn't "stop" playing Martyball, we played Martyball to perfection. Big difference.


In the past three weeks of "now that we're all alone in first place, we should must stop taking chances and play to not lose," we have 3 non-not losses to show for it. We tried it against the Pats, racked up 250 rushing yards--and lost by 18 thanks in no small part to 3 first half turnovers, despite constant running. Only one of those turnovers was Tebows (and I still don't think THAT one was solely his fault.) We stuck with that to start the second half and had a respectable drive that petered out just past midfield and, when the Pats scored a TD on their next drive, left us down by 18 to start the 4th quarter. At that point, we were screwed. We tried it last week and our only score was on their muffed punt, after which we Martyballed to three and out before kicking a FG, losing a game where we only gave up 1 TD.


I know, I hate it when we "Martyball" play action on 3rd down and take a sack that puts us out of field goal range. I dunno Joel, I like you but sometimes you leave me wondering if you're even watching the games.


THIS TEAM IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO WIN A CONVENTIONAL PLAYOFF GAME!

agreed. Conventional would be a balanced offense of passing and running. We can't win throwing.


Not "Tebow/the line/the receivers/the blitzing/the secondary is bad" but the TEAM. There's really no other way to put it; if we play a by the numbers, conservative, avoid-mistakes-and-keep-it-close-to-win-at-the-end game against Pitt or any team like them, they will destroy us, because they're a lot better at it. We must TAKE chances to HAVE a chance; we'll probably still lose, but "probably" is better than "certainly." If you want to play the percentages, the 2011 percentages say that when we play like we did in the 7 wins with Tebow, we win; when we play Martyball like we have since taking sole possession of first place in the AFC West, we lose every time.

turnovers = certain loss. Not sure what's hard to grasp with that. You understand that by definition, when you "take a chance" odds are it isn't going to go in your favour, right? If we turn the ball over in the first half, odds are the second half is garbage time. We need to keep it close through three quarters, and we're not going to do that entering a shoot-out with Pittsburgh.

Again, I wonder if you're watching the games. The 7 wins with Tebow weren't a different game plan. I've seen you say in other threads how Tebow played so much better last time vs KC...he went 2 for ******* 8 in that game. Yup we won, does that mean 2 for ******* 8 wasn't Martyball??

Running Martyball to perfection is not the same as not running Martyball just because we won.


That's the PERCEPTION, yes, but just because the most fans can't or won't see anyone who doesn't currently have the ball doesn't mean those who know better should accept the childish view that "the QB is all."

imo the childish view is creating this false dichotomy "the QB is all". No where did I say "the QB is all". But hell yeah the QB gets more blame/credit for how an offense performs. It's his decision making/execution that is the single biggest factor in how an offense performs. Note I didn't say ONLY. Football is the ultimate team game, every man has a job and weakest link yada yada yada. I think you're going to be in a pretty small group if you think the QB is a secondary factor to how effective an NFL offense is.

Joel
01-04-2012, 12:10 AM
you're confused Joel. Having the opportunity to win the game with one good drive is exactly what Fox ball with Tebow at the helm is all about. Put another way, if Fox doesn't manage Tebow the way he has, there's no opportunity for Tebow to win the game late. We didn't "stop" playing Martyball, we played Martyball to perfection. Big difference.
15-0 is not an opportunity to win the game with one good drive. Neither is 10-0. Those are two score games that got to OT with a heavy passing attack (though the final TD and 2 PAT against Miami were runs, if memory serves,) where the same thing won. Historically, Martyball will get teams to the playoffs, but not the Super Bowl--even with Marty himself coaching.

I know, I hate it when we "Martyball" play action on 3rd down and take a sack that puts us out of field goal range. I dunno Joel, I like you but sometimes you leave me wondering if you're even watching the games.
That was a bad game from Tebow; I honestly doubt more passing would've made a difference there because he was visibly scared and hesitant all day. Understandably, but whatever help he does or doesn't have, he has to work through that and lead in the QBs leadership role. Of course, if he's never allowed to do that, it will never happen, whether or not he's ever capable of doing it consistently. You didn't have to tell me that pass was on third down though; when you said, "pass," "third down" was implied, 'cos that's Martyball. Can't help wondering how many first and second down sacks we've given up; probably not many: It's a TFL on a called RUN.

agreed. Conventional would be a balanced offense of passing and running. We can't win throwing.
Not exclusively, no; predictability is bad whether running or throwing, hence I don't want to wait for third down or a two score 4th quarter deficit to throw. In that sense, some form of "balance" is vital, because if we ONLY run OR pass, a D with players and coaches as good as Pitts will destroy us. And you know what we'll end up doing when we're down by 20 in the 4th quarter? PASSING!

The only difference is they'll be expecting it then; I guarantee the LAST thing Pitt's game planning for right now is Tebow throwing a dozen or more times in the first half. Why not call those passes when the D isn't looking for them instead of more of this "we'll adjust our offense to what their D is doing"? Ugh; I get chills every time I hear Fox say that, because it tells me he is utterly clueless about the very premise of offensive football.

I'm not saying we should try to turn into the Pats; our team is definitely not built for that. We do, however, need to pass more often so that you, me, the announcers, the cheerleaders and Dick LeBeau don't know our first down draw or counter play before we call it. Try some of those first down play action passes; as much as we run on first down they should be wide open: Who covers a Bronco receiver downfield on first down? Call some of those over the middle passes we NEVER throw (though not a lot; against 4 LBs and 2 safeties those are dangerous for ANYONE.) Whatever happened to that in route we used to run to Decker on the left side?

Mix it the hell up, because if we try to ploddingly turtle down the field then tuck inside our shell and punt on third and long, we are toast. We'll have an uphill battle either way, but let's not kid ourselves that playing conservative offense against a good aggressive D is a recipe for success. They will eat us alive if we do that, because we'll be playing to their strength, whatever their rank against the pass/run.

turnovers = certain loss. Not sure what's hard to grasp with that. You understand that by definition, when you "take a chance" odds are it isn't going to go in your favour, right? If we turn the ball over in the first half, odds are the second half is garbage time. We need to keep it close through three quarters, and we're not going to do that entering a shoot-out with Pittsburgh.
The odds aren't in our favor Sunday WHATEVER we do; should we call the League and tell them to give Pitt a 1-0 victory, just so we don't take chances when the odds are against us? We must take CALCULATED risks, not ALL risks or BAD risks. The odds will be against us whatever we do, but they are least against us if we do things we know how to do and they don't expect.

As far as turnovers, we had 2 against KC, 4 (that I know of) against Buffalo and 3 against Pitt, even though we spent 9 of those 12 quarters resolutely refusing to pass. We had 3 times as many turnovers in our 250 yard rushing game against NE than in the Bears game where Tebow threw 40 passes. We shouldn't throw stupid passes, no, and as a rule I do still prefer to run rather than pass MOST of the time because turnovers are less than half as likely--but every rule has exceptions, and games like next Sundays are the exceptions to that one. I don't like to gamble any more than Fox, but sometimes a gamble is the only chance you have, gambles like against Miami, NY and Chicago. A "safe" but CERTAIN loss gains us nothing.

Again, I wonder if you're watching the games. The 7 wins with Tebow weren't a different game plan. I've seen you say in other threads how Tebow played so much better last time vs KC...he went 2 for ******* 8 in that game. Yup we won, does that mean 2 for ******* 8 wasn't Martyball??]Running Martyball to perfection is not the same as not running Martyball just because we won.
The first KC game was mostly Martyball, but the 56 yard TD to Decker certainly wasn't. Last weeks game is another bar easy to get over, but that pass alone does it. I'd have to give you that one, the Chargers game AND the Jets game just to bring our Martyball wins even with our Martyball losses. Meanwhile, there's still the Dolphins game, the Bears game, the second Raiders game and the Vikings game, which were definitely not Martyball (well, the Dolphins and Bears were, until we found ourselves down 2 scores in the 4th and dropped it.) The only loss we can reasonably stack with them is the Bills game (though a single rushing TD in the first half followed by FIVE STRIGHT THREE AND OUTS makes that dubious, but for the sake of argument.) If we're REALLY playing the odds, should we follow the 3-3 game plan or the 4-1 game plan?


imo the childish view is creating this false dichotomy "the QB is all". No where did I say "the QB is all". But hell yeah the QB gets more blame/credit for how an offense performs. It's his decision making/execution that is the single biggest factor in how an offense performs. Note I didn't say ONLY. Football is the ultimate team game, every man has a job and weakest link yada yada yada. I think you're going to be in a pretty small group if you think the QB is a secondary factor to how effective an NFL offense is.
I'm not accusing you of saying, "the QB is all," but excusing the popular yet false view the QB is the primary reason for victory OR defeat is indulging a fallacy you openly recognize as inaccurate. That most people give the QB all the glory OR blame even though it's unfair and inaccurate is a truism, not a justification. When we KNOW the popular impression is wildly inaccurate we should refute it with the facts, not accept it as a fait accompli. It's not fair or accurate to say America's fascist--but a majority of the world believes it; does that mean we should accept or rebutt it?

rjent
01-04-2012, 12:00 PM
Please do not compare Tebow to Elway. Even when Elway struggled as a rookie he did play better at the end of his rookie season and was never afraid to throw the balll like Tebow is.

If he never gains confidence throwing he will be switched to TE or be strickly a wildcat QB at some point.

Ummmm.... Where did I compare Elway to Tebow EXCEPT when I said everyone was saying the same thing about Elway in his first year.

I just don't understand how everyone is expecting a reincarnation of Elway. That is not going to happen, otherwise the record books would show a bunch of Elway clones through the decades. But I do think that Tim has the same fire and will that John Elway did. That I will compare them both with. Tim has a different skill set. We just need to utilize it just like Shanny did with John ....

JMHO

VonSackemMiller
01-04-2012, 04:38 PM
I swear i dont get how some of you can type a essay and expect somebody like me to read through all of that. I just cant keep up.

Ravage!!!
01-04-2012, 04:41 PM
For some reason, our O line is just terrible. The receivers are as bad as they have been all year, but there is NO protection for Tim. I have noticed also that Tim seems very hesitant at running now, almost like he is being told to not run regardless of what he sees. To throw the ball or hand off. It severely limits what they and he can do. Tim has a long way to go, but I see a lot of seemingly limitations on TT that were not there during the "run"...

JMO

I disagree. Tim holds onto the ball a LOoooong time, and many times he's sitting back there hoping to find a receiver eventually break "more" open. OL can only hold the blocks so long.

Thnikkaman
01-04-2012, 04:42 PM
I swear i dont get how some of you can type a essay and expect somebody like me to read through all of that. I just cant keep up.

It would help them if they put [ wrap] tags around their post. The human mind doesn't want to navagate a column of text wider than 5" (or somewhere around that length).

There's even a button that looks like this http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/width.png that they can click to do it.

NameUsedBefore
01-04-2012, 08:20 PM
I disagree. Tim holds onto the ball a LOoooong time, and many times he's sitting back there hoping to find a receiver eventually break "more" open. OL can only hold the blocks so long.

For everytime Tebow holds the ball too long there are three examples of two-to-three receivers running 10+ yards downfield, utterly blanketed by coverage, and the max protected pocket is put to ruin within moments. This offense has had its most success running out of three, four-wide sets. People say McCoy has to hold back the offense... um, what? They've taken the leash off a number of times and what did the offense do? They scored. Fast. Efficiently. So why not do that all game? Why not even try?

Put the offense in the shotgun again. Let Tebow's legs hold linebackers in place and his arm hit the slants and screens; develop a short-passing game for goodness sake like literally any normal playcaller would do. Defenses are manning-up the receivers. So spread them out. And let their backs turn and have Tebow burn them on runs until they have to change their gameplan. You know, be aggressive. Get defenses to adapt to you, not the other way around. Take advantage of your players' talents instead of hiding their weaknesses.

G_Money
01-04-2012, 08:39 PM
It would help them if they put [ wrap] tags around their post. The human mind doesn't want to navagate a column of text wider than 5" (or somewhere around that length).

There's even a button that looks like this http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/width.png that they can click to do it.

I actually didn't have any clue what that button was for. :lol:

But can you imagine how much scrolling would happen if I used that damn button for all my posts? I'd get more complaints about having to hit page down 14 times to get past my junk than about the width of the post.

But I'll remember how to use it, Thnikka. :salute:

~G

Joel
01-05-2012, 12:46 AM
Ummmm.... Where did I compare Elway to Tebow EXCEPT when I said everyone was saying the same thing about Elway in his first year.

I just don't understand how everyone is expecting a reincarnation of Elway. That is not going to happen, otherwise the record books would show a bunch of Elway clones through the decades. But I do think that Tim has the same fire and will that John Elway did. That I will compare them both with. Tim has a different skill set. We just need to utilize it just like Shanny did with John ....

JMHO
Folks are... sensitive about Elway/Tebow comparisons, because so many Tebois made so many of them. The worst were conspiracy buffs shouting that Elway is sabotaging Tebow to protect his own legacy because he knows Tebow is FAR BETTER than he was. Broncos fans were justifiably livid at such audacious hubris (which mercifully seems to have subsided... for the most part...). Some kneejerk reactions to the comparison now are natural.

I swear i dont get how some of you can type a essay and expect somebody like me to read through all of that. I just cant keep up.
As my grampa used to say, "You ain't gonna learn no younger." ;) It's a complex game; "lots of moving parts," was the phrase, I believe. I can try the wrap tag (of which I was also ignorant) but, like G_Money, worry that my posts will end up filling a whole page if I do. People have also complained I need more paragraph breaks, so I try to keep them to three lines or less when possible; using the wrap tag, it wouldn't be.

Elevation inc
01-05-2012, 06:03 AM
For everytime Tebow holds the ball too long there are three examples of two-to-three receivers running 10+ yards downfield, utterly blanketed by coverage, and the max protected pocket is put to ruin within moments. This offense has had its most success running out of three, four-wide sets. People say McCoy has to hold back the offense... um, what? They've taken the leash off a number of times and what did the offense do? They scored. Fast. Efficiently. So why not do that all game? Why not even try?

Put the offense in the shotgun again. Let Tebow's legs hold linebackers in place and his arm hit the slants and screens; develop a short-passing game for goodness sake like literally any normal playcaller would do. Defenses are manning-up the receivers. So spread them out. And let their backs turn and have Tebow burn them on runs until they have to change their gameplan. You know, be aggressive. Get defenses to adapt to you, not the other way around. Take advantage of your players' talents instead of hiding their weaknesses.



awsome post

VonSackemMiller
01-05-2012, 01:25 PM
For everytime Tebow holds the ball too long there are three examples of two-to-three receivers running 10+ yards downfield, utterly blanketed by coverage, and the max protected pocket is put to ruin within moments. This offense has had its most success running out of three, four-wide sets. People say McCoy has to hold back the offense... um, what? They've taken the leash off a number of times and what did the offense do? They scored. Fast. Efficiently. So why not do that all game? Why not even try?

Put the offense in the shotgun again. Let Tebow's legs hold linebackers in place and his arm hit the slants and screens; develop a short-passing game for goodness sake like literally any normal playcaller would do. Defenses are manning-up the receivers. So spread them out. And let their backs turn and have Tebow burn them on runs until they have to change their gameplan. You know, be aggressive. Get defenses to adapt to you, not the other way around. Take advantage of your players' talents instead of hiding their weaknesses.


exactly. tebows best game passing came out of the shotgun in minnesota. guys were breaking open because we had 4 wideout sets, we even ran slants that game. our OC has no idea what he truly wants to do in the passing game week to week. 190 yards in the 4th quarter and overtime vs the bears all in the shotgun.