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View Full Version : The Chicken or the Egg?



Ziggy
01-02-2012, 03:15 AM
I think that this discussion is worthy of it's own thread. Is Tebow bad because of the play calling, or is the play calling bad because of Tebow?

The Tebow Argument-
There's no way that Tebow is going to get into a rythm without being given the opportunity to pass throughout the game. You can't ask a QB to basically hand the ball off at every turn until the game is on the line late in the 4th quarter and expect him to be successful. Let's not forget the fact that Denver's offense is the most predicatable one in the NFL. All defenses have to do is stack the box and play tight man coverage, taking away the outside lanes for Tebow to run through and the chances of success are slim to none. There's not nearly enough play action passes, quick slants, or screens called to help him succeed. No QB could succeed as a passer in this offense.

The Mike McCoy Argument-
The Broncos have the #1 running attack in the NFL. When you can run the ball better than anyone in the league, you run the ball. Add to that the fact that you have a QB who can't complete a pass unless his primary receiver is wide open. You have a QB with a slow release, an inability to read a defense and make check downs, and the guy holds onto the ball far too long. He also has 7 fumbles in his last 4 games. He leads the league in 3 and outs. All that letting him throw the ball is going to do is give your defense even less time to rest than they already have. At least running the ball, you can keep them off of the field for a while. You do what it takes to win, and that means keeping Tebow from throwing the ball too much. Run the ball, play field position, and keep it close in the 4th quarter giving the team a chance to win. It's a no brainer, and it's gotten the Broncos into the playoffs.

bcbronc
01-02-2012, 03:30 AM
imo it's the playcalling is bad because of Tebow, not the other way around. But only partly...McCoy's playcalling sucked when he had Orton at QB and when he had McDaniels as a HC so I don't see him as a good OC.

I do think they see Tebow in practice, and I have no doubt they have him throwing a lot in practice, but what they see doesn't give them confidence calling on Tebow's arm early in the game. He's too inconsistent and we can't absorb early turnovers.

I'd be completely fine with bringing in a new OC next season though.

VonSackemMiller
01-02-2012, 04:08 AM
This discussion is going on in 5-6 threads. Im not even going to speak my piece on this again because no matter what people are going to think what they want. And thats fine. Ill watch the game my way and you watch it your way,

NameUsedBefore
01-02-2012, 06:51 AM
We've been winning in spite of McCoy for a very long time now.

Misuse of talent is a huge understatement. The predictability of his playcalling is stunning. If one play works he goes back to the honey pot again and again, watching it fail worse and worse each time. And these accumulate over the span of a game, digging the offense into deeper and deeper holes until he gets it into his head that it isn't working (which doesn't always happen). He runs the halfbacks ragged, having no sense of pacing. He throws pass plays in almost at complete random, with no sense of place or time. And the tempo of the offense is so random and, without fail, gradually disassembles itself over the span of the game. And this nonsense goes on every week. Denver has the perfect offensive set-up for a bootleg-centered offense. Is the bootleg even in the playbook? What happened to screens? How about some quick slants every so often? Why is every other pass-play a long-developing, low-percentage disaster? We start the game with a QB draw on 3rd and 7? Uh, okay. His idea of playaction is humorous as he calls it at the most ridiculous of times. Yes, they almost bought it on 3rd and 9, moron.

How can anyone watch his playcalling and say he is not the primary issue with the offense? Yeah, Tebow misses passes here and there. Also starting to try too hard on his runs and fumbling. Okay, great. I've seen him make every throw in the NFL and I was a huge doubter of his. I've seen him put in up-tempo, fast paced offenses where he's allowed to just be the Denver Broncos QB and he has looked outstanding. He is way beyond QBs with his experience, but it's mighty hard to do damn near anything when the gameplans are the disasters that they are. When everyone and their grandmother knows what's coming, you bet so too can the guys who watched a week of film and do this for a living.

hotcarl
01-02-2012, 10:26 AM
Didn't read a word

MasterShake
01-02-2012, 10:38 AM
Its really hard to say. On one hand, its hard to remember that Tebow has STILL not had a full 16 game season under his belt for starts the way some (detractors and supporters) talk about him. You'd think we are talking about a 5th year vet or something. On the other hand, its really hard to tell whether or not Tebow has the proper basic skillset to be even an average QB right now because of the way we play offense.

All I can base it on is my opinion that if I was a QB, especially a young one, I'd want to establish some kind of rhythm with my receivers and tight ends early on. It seems like the only time we really passed was when we had to on 3rd and longs which is tough for anyone, but I also remember a few designed throws where Tebow just did not see an open receiver or threw the ball horribly.

I'd say right now its a mix of defenses figuring us out, lack of creative playcalling, and a QB who's skills are sharp enough to compensate when what he is used to is taken away. Something must be in Tebow's head, because I can definitely see a drop in confidence in him.

I just hope to see SOME creative offense next week. If we can get the run going, let Tebow bootleg. I don't know, but something needs to change.

catfish
01-02-2012, 10:52 AM
my thought is its on the coaching either way. I the playcalling is hampering getting in a rhythm it is on them, if they truly don't trust him to throw and that is what is dictating a 1 dimensional offense then it is on them for not benching him. Having a medicre team in playoff contention was the worst case for all involved. They can't take the training wheels off with the playoffs on the line

edit: that said this last game was all executin not coaching. Coaching can be the difference between 50% completion and 60%, not responsible for 30%. This game was a mental collapse. I don't know what was said in the "pep talk" but it sure as shit didn't work

Mike
01-02-2012, 10:56 AM
Its really hard to say. On one hand, its hard to remember that Tebow has STILL not had a full 16 game season under his belt for starts the way some (detractors and supporters) talk about him. You'd think we are talking about a 5th year vet or something. On the other hand, its really hard to tell whether or not Tebow has the proper basic skillset to be even an average QB right now because of the way we play offense.

All I can base it on is my opinion that if I was a QB, especially a young one, I'd want to establish some kind of rhythm with my receivers and tight ends early on. It seems like the only time we really passed was when we had to on 3rd and longs which is tough for anyone, but I also remember a few designed throws where Tebow just did not see an open receiver or threw the ball horribly.

I'd say right now its a mix of defenses figuring us out, lack of creative playcalling, and a QB who's skills are sharp enough to compensate when what he is used to is taken away. Something must be in Tebow's head, because I can definitely see a drop in confidence in him.

I just hope to see SOME creative offense next week. If we can get the run going, let Tebow bootleg. I don't know, but something needs to change.

Justified or not, it is obvious the coaching staff doesn't trust Tebow at all. I do not understand how you can't devise a gameplan that plays to Tebow's strengths, but that is neither here nor there. It is the worst of a bad situation, really bad QB play mixed with a horrible OC, and questionable talent everywhere else.

Has Fox/Elway seen enough of Tebow to make a decision on whether or not Tebow's faults are coachable/fixable? At this point, I am sort of meh about it.

Nomad
01-02-2012, 11:08 AM
Why didn't McCoy let him loose yesterday and call plays to find out because they knew Oakland was gonna lose.

I believe it's both. Tebow is a mental midget (funny quote from HC Morris in TB) when it comes to decision making in passing situations or what to do with the ball in pressure situations other than trying to run it. And I believe McCoy is a mental midget period and I'm starting to think Fox is close behind.

Nomad
01-02-2012, 11:22 AM
I just hope to see SOME creative offense next week. If we can get the run going, let Tebow bootleg. I don't know, but something needs to change.

That's the thing, Tebow is only comfortable rolling to his left and defenses have taken that away from him. And that's a reason the bootlegs haven't been called.

BroncoStud
01-02-2012, 12:03 PM
It's both. Tebow doesn't make his reads and McCoy couldn't playcall his way out of a wet paper bag. McCoy's playcalling sucked when Orton was the QB as well. We knew this last year when McDaniels got fired, we knew this all offseason.

You have to evolve to survive, right now both Tebow and McCoy are failing to do that.