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Denver Native (Carol)
02-18-2009, 08:53 PM
http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_11733070

You want the good news or the bad news? Because, as we all know, when it comes to the Broncos' defense, the news is never all good.

OK then, the bad news it is. The Broncos' defense wasn't one of the worst in the NFL last season. It was the worst, the very worst, and nothing but the worst.

Numbers? You want numbers? The Broncos ranked 29th in overall defense. Now for the fine print: Their offense ranked second. The three teams below Denver in defense — Seattle at No. 30, Kansas City at 31 and Detroit at 32 — ranked 28th, 24th and 30th in offense.

One of the reasons those teams were so inept defensively was because their offenses were almost as bad. They seldom controlled the ball and left their defenses on the field too long to be effective. The Broncos? They didn't have those excuses. All they had was a troubling lack of talent.

Things got so ugly that a culture of failure developed in the locker room. But don't take my word for it. We take you to D.J. Williams, who admitted that he and his defensive teammates felt like "second-class citizens" compared to the offense.

Now for the good news. It took a coaching change and a major upheaval in the personnel department, but the Broncos finally are making moves that were every bit as inevitable as they were overdue.

If Mike Shanahan were in charge, Bob Slowik would have returned to oversee a defense with a handful of new starters. Instead, Josh McDaniels and his staff have gutted the defensive depth chart, dumping five starters in a matter of days.

The best news of all isn't that those marginal players are gone. It's that the powers that be at Dove Valley finally have quit rationalizing and begun acknowledging the depths of the team's problems.

Not that getting rid of all those starters is the answer. The answer can only come by replacing them with better players. That won't be easy, particularly in the short run, what with the purge having cost the Broncos millions in cap hits.

Since we live in the real world in this corner of the sports section, I dialed up an NFL player agent Wednesday to get his take on the Broncos' post-purge prospects for 2009.

"In a way, I appreciate what they're doing," he said. "In the long haul, they had to get that dead weight out of there. It's probably smart. They'll have brand new guys, so you know they won't have the pressure to win next season. It's like, 'Let's get rid of this mess on our hands and upgrade. Then we can win down the road."

As opposed to next season, when the Broncos' schedule includes Pittsburgh, New England, Dallas, Indianapolis, Philadelphia, Baltimore and the Giants.

Only time will tell if McDaniels will be a successful NFL head coach. But if so, it's going to be later, not sooner.

SmilinAssasSin27
02-18-2009, 09:00 PM
I disagree w/ the later than sooner thing...unless they are referring specifically to 2009. This team has talent. Even on defense. I think our talent level hasn't been effected 1 bit by the cuts and we can only improve via FA and the draft. I think the plyers were THAT BAD last year. Add to that the poor schemes and refusal of the DC to let the CBs actually lineup on the WRs and I thnk that made things even worse...if possible. It may be a deparate philosophy, but it is basially impossible for our D not to improve and our O is a RB away from being downright nasty.

Superchop 7
02-18-2009, 09:00 PM
(POST IS FROM CUG)

Joe Collier Breaks Down the 3-4 Defense!
Former Broncos defensive coordinator, who taught the defense to Bill Belichek breaks down in simply layman's terms how the 3-4 defense works. A very interesting read:


Quote:
Collier, who spent 20 seasons (1969-1988) with the Broncos and still lives in the Denver area, is the one who put the 3-4 into the pages of the franchise's history. He's also the one Patriots coach Bill Belichick, McDaniels' former boss, often has credited with first showing him the defense.

"And you build it from the inside out," Collier said. "The nose tackle and the inside linebackers, those are three guys that are very important. But when you go through it, the nose tackle is probably the single-most important guy.

The Nose Tackle:

Quote:
"He has to hold it all together and make it so the guards can't get out on the inside linebackers. Let me put it this way - the nose tackle can make the inside linebackers look pretty good, and if your inside linebackers look pretty good, you're going to play pretty good defense."

. . . . And it's clear the Broncos have no one on their current roster to play the centerpiece position in the 3-4.

Dewayne Robertson, listed at 308 pounds, is the Broncos' biggest defensive lineman and has played nose tackle in his career.

But he repeatedly has said he did not enjoy his time on the nose in the New York Jets' 3-4 before his trade to the Broncos, and that was one of the reasons he wanted a trade.

He's also far lighter than 325- pound Vince Wilfork and 325- pound Casey Hampton - both likely play at heavier weights than are listed - who are considered two of the best nose tackles in football in the two best 3-4 defenses in the league in New England and Pittsburgh, respectively.

"But that guy is the first guy you have to get," Collier said. "He has to be physically capable of playing the position and mentally tough enough to do it over the long haul. I used to ask Rubin Carter's son, Andre, all the time where he wanted to play in the NFL and he'd always say, 'Anywhere but nose tackle, because I saw how my dad walked around the house on Mondays.'

"The nose tackle, all three guys up front, have to play with that physical side and they have to be unselfish, powerful and ready to deal with the fact they have to do their jobs well so other people may make the tackles, force the fumbles, get the sacks and interceptions."

This is the key. With BJ Raji moving up the draft chart out of reach of the Broncos at #12 there isn't a consensus dominating NT available in the draft nor is it easy to find one via FA. Teams simply don't let their elite NTs get away as FA. They sign them to long-term contracts until they're too old and washed up to continue (think Sam Adams).

This will be the biggest single stumbling block to the Broncos adapting to a 3-4. As Collier points out, if your NT isn't able to hold his own and fight off double-teams without being pushed into the backfield, the OGs will penetrate and blast right into the ILBs. That results in big runs and lots of first downs.

The Defensive ends are also a problem. Denver will have to adapt players or acquire them. Frankly, the Broncos could use at least 3 or 4 top 15 picks in this draft to fix all that's wrong with the defense and they don't have them.

So, this might be a multi-year project, with the defense only getting better in 2010 or 2011!

Defensive Ends:

Quote:
The two defensive end spots traditionally are filled by players with the body types the Broncos don't have on their roster. The Steelers and Patriots start defensive ends who are at least 6-foot-5 and at least 285 pounds. New England starts two 300 pounders in Ty Warren and Richard Seymour.

Backup defensive tackle Nic Clemons (6-6, 300) is the only lineman on the current Broncos roster who stands taller than 6-4 and also is 300 pounds.

"Those ends, especially the guys on the strong side, have to be able to hold the ground," Collier said. "He's going to get double-teamed almost every time, and he can't dig in 8 yards down the field; he's got to hold at the point (of attack) so that linebacker can come around the bend behind him to make the play."

Possibly, Marcus Thomas and DeWayne Robertson could be moved out to play DE in a 3-4, but they might not be very good at it. Still it's a better chance to use those two players than trying to get them to play NT.

Outside LBs:

Quote:
The two outside linebacker spots require some work as well. The weak-side linebacker on the outside, who lines up away from the offense's tight end, usually on the defensive right, is the primary pass rusher.

This often is a former college defensive end. The Steelers feature the NFL's Defensive Player of the Year in this spot in James Harrison, who is 6-foot, 240 pounds, but is a refined rusher who also can hold up in the run game if necessary.

This is the spot where Elvis Dumervil (5-11, 260) and Jarvis Moss (6-6, 265) likely would have to make the transition into a 3-4 if they are going to have active roles in the defense.

In the other outside linebacker spot - the strong side - the Patriots and Steelers play 260-pound players there. The Steelers line up LaMarr Woodley, another refined pass rusher who played end for two of his four seasons at Michigan and had two sacks in the AFC Championship Game, who checks in at 6-2, 265.

The Patriots have played the 261-pound Mike Vrabel, a former defensive end at Ohio State, in that spot as well

If Moss and Dumervil can't make the adjustment to OLB, the Broncos will have to draft or acquire two such players in addition via FA. Adding someone like Jarvis Moss (but good) would in the draft would also be a long-term necessity.

Inside LBs:
Quote:
Collier said the two inside linebacker spots have to be filled by players who can move well enough to get to both sides of the field. But he added that if the work is done correctly in front of them, those two players often can make the transition the easiest from a 4-3 defense they have played in college or elsewhere in the NFL.

The Steelers have played some lighter players inside, like the 239-pound Larry Foote, in their attacking scheme. The Patriots have two 240-pounders on the inside in Jerod Mayo and Tedy Bruschi; Bruschi was a defensive lineman in college at Arizona, having even played nose tackle at times, and was converted to a linebacker by Belichick.

DJ Williams will clearly NOT be happy being moved AGAIN after he settled in at WLB with some success. But, he's too light to play OLB in a 3-4 and the ILB would be a position he could play with equal success.

Whether Wesley Woodyard could really play the SILB is another question. If BJ Raji is gone by #12 (likely) then possibly Rey Maualuga or James Laurinaitis will be available. The Broncos would then have to look for a NT in the 2nd round. That's less than ideal, but adding a stud ILB to go with DJ or a DE like Orakpo would be a HUGE plus for the defense.


Quote:
"But in the end, a 3-4, it's not the answer to everything," Collier said. "You play a game, you figure you have 60 plays or so on defense. You might be in the straight 3-4 about 20 or so plays of the 60. The rest of the time, you're going to be in down-and-distance situations where you might take a linebacker and put him in a three- point (stance), or add a defensive back, go with five or six defensive backs. You have packages.

"So it's just part of the defensive scheme, just one of the things you're going to be doing and not everything."

HOW THE BRONCOS STAND UP: BEST CASE SCENARIO.

We already know that Dumervil and Moss are too light to play DE in a 4-3. Perhaps they could do better as OLBs in a 3-4 but that remains to be determined. Assuming they can make the transition, and assuming that Robertson re-negotiates his contract (downward) and stays, and that he and Thomas can make the transition to 3-4 DE (big assumptions), then the Broncos starting Defense might look like this:

DL:

LDE: Robertson or FA
NT: Raji, FA or god knows who
RDE: Thomas or FA

LOLB: Dumervil or FA
LILB: Woodyard, Maualuga or James Laurinaitis or FA or pray-for-rain
RILB: BJ Williams
ROLB: Moss or FA

CB: Bailey, Bly
SS: Two new FAs.

All this is rather daunting to face. It's going to be a long, painful transition at best. At worst, the Broncos will be unable to find an elite NT in time to save McDaniels career, and he'll take his place alongside Romeo Crennel and other formerly highly regarded Patriots assistants who failed as head coaches.
[quote]
But it's like anything, it takes some continuity to be good at it. The Steelers and Patriots, they've been playing it a while. And 75 percent of our success when we did it was that guys played in the same system 10, 12 years.[/QUOTE ]

Conclusion:

Given all the difficulty in switching to a 3-4 it might seem more logical to go with the 4-3 this season and simply concentrate on acquiring players who can play in both systems.

But, it's clear that Moss and Dumervil can't play well enough in a 4-3 to start and they're earning rather a lot of money for backups. Further, it will take time to get used to the system so the earlier they implement it the better from that standpoint. If Moss & Dumervil CAN'T Make the transition, then it would be far easier to stick with the 4-3.

Attempting (unsuccessfully) to switch to the 3-4 doomed both Romeo Crennel in Cleveland and Eric Mangini in New York, both Belichek assistants who tried to implement the Patriots successful system.

The same thing could happen here

(POST FROM CUG IN ANOTHER FORUM)

SoCalImport
02-18-2009, 09:03 PM
Cool with me if we take a year, hell, take two. But we'd better come out the other side of this rebuild with something worth the fans pain and suffering.
Ya'know, a little compensation for time served watching those horrendous defenses.

SoCalImport
02-18-2009, 09:17 PM
(POST IS FROM CUG)

Attempting (unsuccessfully) to switch to the 3-4 doomed both Romeo Crennel in Cleveland and Eric Mangini in New York, both Belichek assistants who tried to implement the Patriots successful system.

The same thing could happen here

(POST FROM CUG IN ANOTHER FORUM)

Now why the hell did he have to go and say a thing like that.....now I'm gonna have bad dreams

BRONCOSFREAK765
02-20-2009, 02:08 AM
I disagree I dont think we will need a year or two, i see no reason we can't win the West and get into the playoffs next year. Our D cannot get worse...i think we will be ok.

warcrychief
02-20-2009, 03:49 AM
I disagree I dont think we will need a year or two, i see no reason we can't win the West and get into the playoffs next year. Our D cannot get worse...i think we will be ok.

althought i think your offense will get worse IMHO

Fan in Exile
02-20-2009, 07:10 AM
It wasn't just the attempt to switch to a 3-4 that doomed Crennel and Mangini.

Crennel had four years to make the switch it was at least in part his inability to run a 3-4, not just to switch. At the same time look at the problems they had on offense. They made the wrong qb choice on more than one occasion. They couldn't get too much of a running game going. They are also in a brutal unforgiving division which keeps a team down.

Mangini also got killed by his GM. He brought in Brett Favre which was a terrible mistake, because he couldn't last the season. It was Farve's implosion at the end of this year that killed the teams play off hopes. That and with all the money spent on FA's the pressure in New York was to win now. Although it must be said that bringing in Gholston was a total mistake. I hope we just say no to work out warriors. Their problems last year were because the O-line imploded, which is not the fault of trying to run the 3-4. Notice how quickly Mangini got a new Head Coaching position, it's because people recognize it wasn't really his fault.