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rcsodak
01-01-2012, 07:15 PM
Making his list....checking it twice.

RGIII?
MFlynn?
BVP?

6/22 60yds/0/1.

....nuff said

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Ravage!!!
01-01-2012, 07:18 PM
RGIII is NOT going to be a Bronco. No way, no how.

jhildebrand
01-01-2012, 07:19 PM
RGIII is NOT going to be a Bronco. No way, no how.

God. I would rather they not draft one if it will be RGIII and sit through 16 more of Tebow.

broken12
01-01-2012, 07:20 PM
i dont think tebow is the problem right now, he never gets a chance to get into rythem! the gameplan was horrendous

camdisco24
01-01-2012, 07:22 PM
Making his list....checking it twice.

RGIII?
MFlynn?
BVP?

6/22 60yds/0/1.

....nuff said

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It's sad that you're probably really happy right now.

DenBronx
01-01-2012, 07:22 PM
Making his list....checking it twice.

RGIII?
MFlynn?
BVP?

6/22 60yds/0/1.

....nuff said

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I don't want a rookie QB unless his name is Andrew Luck and I don't care if we had to trade our whole franchise and a pair of brahma bull nuts to get him.

rcsodak
01-01-2012, 07:23 PM
i dont think tebow is the problem right now, he never gets a chance to get into rythem! the gameplan was horrendous

Well, when you are playing without a passing qb, it tends to limit the offense/play calling.

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Ravage!!!
01-01-2012, 07:24 PM
i dont think tebow is the problem right now, he never gets a chance to get into rythem! the gameplan was horrendous

The gameplan was working fine. Our running game was working great. You can't miss 9 passes in a row and expect the coaches to say "hey, lets keep throwing the ball... just for the hell of it." The passer was NOT giving the KC defense ANY reason to respect the pass.

How many times does he have to miss, or not see open receivers, for the coaching staff to get the idea that Tim's passing isn't going to get it done.... and I mean that from both OUR OC and their DC at the same time.

BroncoStud
01-01-2012, 07:24 PM
Orton sucked balls today as well. Pathetic that RC is happy about the game.

jhildebrand
01-01-2012, 07:25 PM
I am surprised and more critical of the fact the Fox didn't kick some long FG's with Prater. That is the only thing I question in this game! There were 2 FG opps that he chose to punt! :tsk: Let Prater kick there if you arent going to change anything else and nothing working.

rcsodak
01-01-2012, 07:25 PM
It's sad that you're probably really happy right now.
Happy?
I wonder if a team has to accept the playoff berth!
They just lost 3 spots in the draft, only to play 1 more embarrassing game.

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jhildebrand
01-01-2012, 07:27 PM
Happy?
I wonder if a team has to accept the playoff berth!
They just lost 3 spots in the draft, only to play 1 more embarrassing game.

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FFS! Act like a Bronco fan.

Detroit had how many top picks under Millen and they did what exactly? :confused: It is more about the Coaches and FO!!!!!

I want no part of this year's matt cassell/rob johnsone i.e. Flynn.

chazoe60
01-01-2012, 07:28 PM
Orton sucked balls today as well. Pathetic that RC is happy about the game.

Consider the source.

rcsodak
01-01-2012, 07:28 PM
Orton sucked balls today as well. Pathetic that RC is happy about the game.

Kiss off.

Just because i dont have my eyes wide shut.

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nflfan
01-01-2012, 07:29 PM
i dont think tebow is the problem right now, he never gets a chance to get into rythem! the gameplan was horrendous

Can't have it both ways. This is the same gameplan that fans wanted the Broncos to go back to, after the loss to the Bills.

The Chiefs defense played well, specially their corners. They also didn't make the mistake of going with prevent defense, probably because the score was too close.

Still, the Broncos should win the AFC West, and despite this loss, it's still a good accomplishment.

Ravage!!!
01-01-2012, 07:29 PM
I am surprised and more critical of the fact the Fox didn't kick some long FG's with Prater. That is the only thing I question in this game! There were 2 FG opps that he chose to punt! :tsk: Let Prater kick there if you arent going to change anything else and nothing working.

But you don't know what they know. The coaches know BEFORE the game where the line is by how the kicker is kicking and how his leg is feeling. They know the line, and considering it was such a loowwww scoring game, they were sticking with what has worked for us so many times before...... play the field position game and not give them a short field. We were within 7 points the entire game.

rcsodak
01-01-2012, 07:33 PM
Consider the source.
Cant help its taking you a whole season to see what some of us saw in a couple weeks.

This team has plenty of areas to improve at. Too bad qb has to be one of them.

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jhildebrand
01-01-2012, 07:33 PM
But you don't know what they know. The coaches know BEFORE the game where the line is by how the kicker is kicking and how his leg is feeling. They know the line, and considering it was such a loowwww scoring game, they were sticking with what has worked for us so many times before...... play the field position game and not give them a short field. We were within 7 points the entire game.

Well it was wicked windy here yesterday and gusty at times today. I just think fox gets a little Marty in him in these kinds of games. At some point you have to play to win vs playing not to lose.

jhildebrand
01-01-2012, 07:34 PM
Cant help its taking you a whole season to see what some of us saw in a couple weeks.

This team has plenty of areas to improve at. Too bad qb has to be one of them.

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Kind of rich considering myself and others could see what Orton was in a couple of weeks. Funny how you are only back now. :rolleyes:

nflfan
01-01-2012, 07:36 PM
The gameplan was working fine. Our running game was working great. You can't miss 9 passes in a row and expect the coaches to say "hey, lets keep throwing the ball... just for the hell of it." The passer was NOT giving the KC defense ANY reason to respect the pass.

How many times does he have to miss, or not see open receivers, for the coaching staff to get the idea that Tim's passing isn't going to get it done.... and I mean that from both OUR OC and their DC at the same time.

I agree, but I think emphasizing no turnovers got into Tebow's head too much, and caused him to be overly cautious.

If or when the Broncos go with Tebow next season, he has to be allowed to pass the ball and make mistakes in order to get better. The coaches have to show confidence in him and his abilities.

chazoe60
01-01-2012, 07:37 PM
Cant help its taking you a whole season to see what some of us saw in a couple weeks.

This team has plenty of areas to improve at. Too bad qb has to be one of them.

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Do you honestly think we wouldn't need to upgrade if Orton was still our QB?

rcsodak
01-01-2012, 07:47 PM
But you don't know what they know. The coaches know BEFORE the game where the line is by how the kicker is kicking and how his leg is feeling. They know the line, and considering it was such a loowwww scoring game, they were sticking with what has worked for us so many times before...... play the field position game and not give them a short field. We were within 7 points the entire game.

Thats whats bugged me all season.....playing the fiels position game instead of going for short yardage. But during their run, it worked.
Didnt the announcer say prater was kicking 60+ in warmups?

Meh......the way this teams is, I feel almost as low as last year, minus twice the wins.

If it hadnt been for the muffed punt, this was a shutout.

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rcsodak
01-01-2012, 07:50 PM
Do you honestly think we wouldn't need to upgrade if Orton was still our QB?
Does every post have to include orton? He's no longer on the team, chazzy. Time to move on.

I bet Pitt is partying their ass off!

And i see BOTH wild cards advancing.

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BroncoStud
01-01-2012, 08:33 PM
RC, did you expect playoffs before the season began? He'll no. If you're embarrassed to watch the game then don't...

Let the Broncos fan watch it. You can sit on Orton's couch and watch the other games with him...

KCL
01-01-2012, 08:36 PM
The gameplan was working fine. Our running game was working great. You can't miss 9 passes in a row and expect the coaches to say "hey, lets keep throwing the ball... just for the hell of it." The passer was NOT giving the KC defense ANY reason to respect the pass.

How many times does he have to miss, or not see open receivers, for the coaching staff to get the idea that Tim's passing isn't going to get it done.... and I mean that from both OUR OC and their DC at the same time.

Pretty much the same thing I told the Tebow fan in the game thread.

btw-was Elway nodding off during the game? ;)

Broncos Mtnman
01-01-2012, 08:39 PM
Pathetic that RC is happy about the game.

You know, the same accusation was made at me when Plummer lost the AFC Championship against the Steelers a few years back.

Being right about Timmy's pathetic play doesn't mean that you're happy about it when you're proven right.

:coffee:

rcsodak
01-01-2012, 08:55 PM
You know, the same accusation was made at me when Plummer lost the AFC Championship against the Steelers a few years back.

Being right about Timmy's pathetic play doesn't mean that you're happy about it when you're proven right.

:coffee:
Eh...it's all bs has, so.... :coffee:

Btw, mtn, jake>TT. ;')

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Northman
01-01-2012, 08:56 PM
I agree, but I think emphasizing no turnovers got into Tebow's head too much, and caused him to be overly cautious.

If or when the Broncos go with Tebow next season, he has to be allowed to pass the ball and make mistakes in order to get better. The coaches have to show confidence in him and his abilities.

If Tim became overly cautious than thats on him. The coaches were 100% correct to address the TO problem that he had been having the last 2 weeks prior to today. You need a QB who is mentally tough not only during a game but when it comes to criticism as EVERY QB deals with pep talks from their coaches.

Broncos Mtnman
01-01-2012, 09:10 PM
Btw, mtn, jake>TT. ;')

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This may shock you, but......


.... IN A HEARTBEAT!!


At least Plummer could actually PLAY the position.

KCL
01-01-2012, 09:16 PM
If Tim became overly cautious than thats on him. The coaches were 100% correct to address the TO problem that he had been having the last 2 weeks prior to today. You need a QB who is mentally tough not only during a game but when it comes to criticism as EVERY QB deals with pep talks from their coaches.

I was waiting for the pick he threw.I knew it was going to happen sooner or later.

Nick
01-01-2012, 09:32 PM
God. I would rather they not draft one if it will be RGIII and sit through 16 more of Tebow.

RG3 has no similarities as Tebow and is a pure pocket passer. Just happens to run, be fast, and is black.

Thnikkaman
01-01-2012, 09:37 PM
i dont think tebow is the problem right now, he never gets a chance to get into rythem! the gameplan was horrendous

this. the wrs can't get into a rythem end either.

MOtorboat
01-01-2012, 09:38 PM
Some people were clearly not watching the same game I was.

Nick
01-01-2012, 09:42 PM
this. the wrs can't get into a rythem end either.

I remember when Tebow was coming in, a lot of inteligent people on QB analysis's that I know were mentioning how him not hitting the wide outs in the correct timing and with the quantity of opportunities they get it will hurt them ALOT.

Also mentioned how it will hurt their progressions and we have a young wide receiving core.

Thnikkaman
01-01-2012, 10:00 PM
this. the wrs can't get into a rythem end either.

I remember when Tebow was coming in, a lot of inteligent people on QB analysis's that I know were mentioning how him not hitting the wide outs in the correct timing and with the quantity of opportunities they get it will hurt them ALOT.

Also mentioned how it will hurt their progressions and we have a young wide receiving core.

This is why I am wiling tip give Tim another year. I want to do see some improvement.

MOtorboat
01-01-2012, 10:02 PM
Me too, instead of steady regression.

chazoe60
01-01-2012, 10:08 PM
I would do backflips if we drafted RG3.

What is it some of you don't like about him? I think the dude has everything you want in a QB prospect.

elwayisgod
01-01-2012, 10:09 PM
Exactly!!!! Tebow sucks people!!!!

HORSEPOWER 56
01-01-2012, 10:12 PM
Exactly!!!! Tebow sucks people!!!!

So uh, don't watch the playoff game next week?

KCL
01-01-2012, 10:14 PM
Exactly!!!! Tebow sucks people!!!!

That's not true..he does a good job handing the ball off.;)

chazoe60
01-01-2012, 10:18 PM
The sad part about Tebow is he seems to get worse each game.

To me he was good against Chicago and Minnesota. I know some hink he stunk up the joint for much of the Chicago game but it's just not true. Our WRs couldn't catch a damn thing for most of that game, Tebow was on the money throwing the ball for almost that entire game. But, he has regressed badly the last two weeks.

He has no anticipation and I don't know if you can really teach that.

HORSEPOWER 56
01-01-2012, 10:24 PM
The sad part about this thread is that you guys would've run Elway out of town on a rail after his first season... he was benched for crying out loud and had 2X the INTs that he did TDs.

I swear, if a guy isn't Aaron Rodgers right off the shelf, you guys want to move on. FYI, Rodgers, Brees, Rivers, and Eli Manning weren't who they are now either right out of the box...

Did Tebow have a shitty game? Yep. Did he look like ass for most of the game and the last 3 weeks? Yep. Has he just now completed his first year under center? Yep.

He's probably going to be our starter next year. If he looks like he looked today next December, I'll lead the way to Dove Vally with pitchforks and torches. Give it a little time. Give Decker and Thomas a little time. Give the OL a little time. Why does McGahee look like our best player on offense? Maybe because he's an 8 year vet...

Next year at this time, we'll know for sure. Patience brothers and sisters, patience.

MOtorboat
01-01-2012, 10:26 PM
The sad part about this thread is that you guys would've run Elway out of town on a rail after his first season... he was benched for crying out loud and had 2X the INTs that he did TDs.

I swear, if a guy isn't Aaron Rodgers right off the shelf, you guys want to move on. FYI, Rodgers, Brees, Rivers, and Eli Manning weren't who they are now either right out of the box...

Did Tebow have a shitty game? Yep. Did he look like ass for most of the game and the last 3 weeks? Yep. Has he just now completed his first year under center? Yep.

He's probably going to be our starter next year. If he looks like he looked today next December, I'll lead the way to Dove Vally with pitchforks and torches. Give it a little time. Give Decker and Thomas a little time. Give the OL a little time. Why does McGahee look like our best player on offense? Maybe because he's an 8 year vet...

Next year at this time, we'll know for sure. Patience brothers and sisters, patience.

It's not a shitty game. It's been a shitty season.

chazoe60
01-01-2012, 10:31 PM
The sad part about this thread is that you guys would've run Elway out of town on a rail after his first season... he was benched for crying out loud and had 2X the INTs that he did TDs.

I swear, if a guy isn't Aaron Rodgers right off the shelf, you guys want to move on. FYI, Rodgers, Brees, Rivers, and Eli Manning weren't who they are now either right out of the box...

Did Tebow have a shitty game? Yep. Did he look like ass for most of the game and the last 3 weeks? Yep. Has he just now completed his first year under center? Yep.

He's probably going to be our starter next year. If he looks like he looked today next December, I'll lead the way to Dove Vally with pitchforks and torches. Give it a little time. Give Decker and Thomas a little time. Give the OL a little time. Why does McGahee look like our best player on offense? Maybe because he's an 8 year vet...

Next year at this time, we'll know for sure. Patience brothers and sisters, patience.
I see where you're coming from HP, but there have been some alarming signs in the last few games. Tebow has failed to spot open WRs constantly, even WRs who seem to be his #1 option on the play.

He has shown some serious flaws in his ability, mostly his complete and utter lack of anticipation. If a WR doesn't come open as he's looking at them he can not anticipate their route or them breaking open and throw it to a spot.

I have been a huge Tebow supporter but my faith is waining.

jhildebrand
01-01-2012, 10:47 PM
RG3 has no similarities as Tebow and is a pure pocket passer. Just happens to run, be fast, and is black.

I understand who RGIII is. He is the next Vince Young. I don't want any part of him hence the sit for another year with Tebow :noidea:

horsepig
01-01-2012, 10:51 PM
Pretty much the same thing I told the Tebow fan in the game thread.

btw-was Elway nodding off during the game? ;)

Don't know about Elway, but I was.

chazoe60
01-01-2012, 10:53 PM
I understand who RGIII is. He is the next Vince Young. I don't want any part of him hence the sit for another year with Tebow :noidea:

RG3 is so much smarter and a much more accurate passer than VY. That's not a fair assesment of RG3 at all Jhil.

KCL
01-01-2012, 10:53 PM
Don't know about Elway, but I was.

At one point he looked like he was either nodding off or looking down at his cell phone maybe and texting.

Watchthemiddle
01-01-2012, 10:56 PM
Elway can check this list...

7-4 with Tebow - CHECK
First playoff appearance since 06 - check
First year as President of Ops and win the division - CHECK
Home playoff game - CHECK
Time to draft a DB, DL, and RB - CHECK
Sign a WR in the offseason that can get open - CHECK

Oh, and he can go ahead and sign Tebow's CHECK for his roster bonus.

horsepig
01-01-2012, 10:57 PM
At one point he looked like he was either nodding off or looking down at his cell phone maybe and texting.

"Where do you want to go for dinner tonight", maybe.

horsepig
01-01-2012, 10:59 PM
Or, "can we still get TO?".

chazoe60
01-01-2012, 10:59 PM
Maybe we're just rope-a-dopeing the Stealers. Mwhaaaahaaaaa

KCL
01-01-2012, 11:01 PM
Or, "can we still get TO?".

Or and have a sense of humor when reading this.........

since the Chiefs season is over..drum roll please.............

























can we sign Orton again.........:laugh:

Npba900
01-01-2012, 11:03 PM
i dont think tebow is the problem right now, he never gets a chance to get into rythem! the gameplan was horrendous

Right now T2 has no rhythm coming from his arm! He'll have to develop that rhythm during the 6 months of the off season.

In fact I strongly suggest Tebow get on the phone and call Steve Young to see if he can rescue and save his career as a starting NFL QB that can perform from with in the pocket and from behind center.

In the playoffs, which ever team Denver plays you can be reassured that they will take away the spread-option and make Tim beat them with his arm.

Npba900
01-01-2012, 11:06 PM
Or, "can we still get TO?".

Believe me you don't want TO on this team with Tebow as the QB; TO will not have any patience with Tebow throwing helicopter passes or floating passes over the middle, or Tebow failing to connect/throw to the open receivers.

HORSEPOWER 56
01-01-2012, 11:09 PM
I see where you're coming from HP, but there have been some alarming signs in the last few games. Tebow has failed to spot open WRs constantly, even WRs who seem to be his #1 option on the play.

He has shown some serious flaws in his ability, mostly his complete and utter lack of anticipation. If a WR doesn't come open as he's looking at them he can not anticipate their route or them breaking open and throw it to a spot.

I have been a huge Tebow supporter but my faith is waining.

I know where you're coming from. From my perspective it appears that Tebow is thinking too much and not playing enough. Early on, they just let him play. Now, they've seemed to try to handcuff him to the pocket. They only really let him throw the deep ball, and only when they max-protect with only 2 WRs in the pattern. Sure, Tebow missed an open Decker on one play and probably missed others, but I also saw at least 4 times (and I'm sure there were many more) where all of our WRs I mean ALL OF THEM were 15+ yards downfield and blanketed on 3rd an 5...

Remember the 3rd down throw he tried to make to Royal on the 3rd and 4? Royal lined up in the backfield and was 10+ yards downfield on 3rd and 4 when Tebow finally threw it behind him because the Safety had inside coverage. Why was Royal 10 yards downfield on 3rd and 4? Especially when he was the most shallow receiver on the play???

I saw a couple plays - the pass to Larsen, the boot throwback to Fells - that worked quite well. I don't understand why we don't do it more often. How come Kyle Frickin' Orton had more designed rollouts than Tebow? Sure Tebow rolls out a lot, but almost never by design... That's his strength and yet we rarely ever try it. I don't know why.

We started off trying to play to Tebow's strengths - the option, rollouts and screens, etc, now it looks like we've gone right back to dropping him straight back and handcuffing him there like we did for the first 55 minutes vs Miami and vs Detroit. Today's offensive gameplan looked just like his first two games where he struggled.

But what do I know, I'm just a guy who's happy to be here...

Sinthor
01-01-2012, 11:12 PM
Cant help its taking you a whole season to see what some of us saw in a couple weeks.

This team has plenty of areas to improve at. Too bad qb has to be one of them.

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Fortunately, most of use HAVE seen that QB needs improvement as well. And I can almost guarantee if we had any other young QB, they'd need improvement too. Sheesh. Guy has two bad games, unlike any QB in the NFL ever has had before, and people are jumping up and down with glee.

I want to see how TT looks in camp after a full offseason and after working with Elway. This team WILL be picking up at least one other QB in the draft or FA, two if they don't re-sign Quinn, so there will be a backup plan. You can count on that. Bottom line, it's not uncommon for young QB's to go through ups and downs. Check your history. Tebow's made some great throws and he's made some bad ones. I think something was going on today as he looked uncharacteristically hesitant. Yeah, receivers were well covered a lot but there were a few instances where guys were wide open and you could actually see him start to throw, then hesitate. Hopefully just a really bad game but bottom line, we'll see with more development. I have no idea at this point who I'd want the team to get to make an instant switch, I can say that. And don't even bring up Flynn. Taking a guy like that (what, the next Kevin Kolb?) is a huge risk as well. And you have to pay an established guy like that big money. Cheaper to bring in an older vet or draft someone.

Watchthemiddle
01-01-2012, 11:14 PM
Right now T2 has no rhythm coming from his arm! He'll have to develop that rhythm during the 6 months of the off season.

In fact I strongly suggest Tebow get on the phone and call Steve Young to see if he can rescue and save his career as a starting NFL QB that can perform from with in the pocket and from behind center.

In the playoffs, which ever team Denver plays you can be reassured that they will take away the spread-option and make Tim beat them with his arm.

Nope, he needs to contact Mooch to coach him up. And the Broncos need to bring in Fassell as their OC.

BroncoStud
01-01-2012, 11:27 PM
You know, the same accusation was made at me when Plummer lost the AFC Championship against the Steelers a few years back.

Being right about Timmy's pathetic play doesn't mean that you're happy about it when you're proven right.

:coffee:

Nothing to do with Tebow and everything to do with RC's love of Orton, who was nothing short of pathetic today as well.

Joel
01-01-2012, 11:48 PM
Fortunately, most of use HAVE seen that QB needs improvement as well. And I can almost guarantee if we had any other young QB, they'd need improvement too. Sheesh. Guy has two bad games, unlike any QB in the NFL ever has had before, and people are jumping up and down with glee.

I want to see how TT looks in camp after a full offseason and after working with Elway. This team WILL be picking up at least one other QB in the draft or FA, two if they don't re-sign Quinn, so there will be a backup plan. You can count on that. Bottom line, it's not uncommon for young QB's to go through ups and downs. Check your history. Tebow's made some great throws and he's made some bad ones. I think something was going on today as he looked uncharacteristically hesitant. Yeah, receivers were well covered a lot but there were a few instances where guys were wide open and you could actually see him start to throw, then hesitate. Hopefully just a really bad game but bottom line, we'll see with more development. I have no idea at this point who I'd want the team to get to make an instant switch, I can say that. And don't even bring up Flynn. Taking a guy like that (what, the next Kevin Kolb?) is a huge risk as well. And you have to pay an established guy like that big money. Cheaper to bring in an older vet or draft someone.
I think Fox has him playing scared, quite honestly. The concern about protecting the ball that produced a lot of throwaways earlier in the season has blossomed into full blown paranoia after all the picks against the Bills.

And also, quite honestly, the one consistency in this season for me has been that in EVERY post game press conference I've seen--win or lose--Fox has ALWAYS looked confused and scared. That's probably understandable; his game plan failed him in the losses, and most of the wins involved a lot of passing, a concept foreign and frightening to Fox. Really, how many times has Foxs Martyball offense WON us a game? We've had many unbelievable last second sand lot passing rallies, but how many times has playing tough D and running the ball down their throats all game WON us a game? I can't think of one; the closest we came were the wins agaisnt SD and NY, but there was a fair amount of passing in both, and the critical running successes were primarily from our QB, not our running backs.

I hate to say it but, whether Fox can win a championship or Tebow can win a championship, I don't think Fox can win a championship with Tebow. Maximizing Tebows potential requires creative offensive playcalling and calculated risks, and Fox is incapable of either. Ask yourself what Rodgers, Brady or Manning would do under Fox. Does anyone really believe passers of that caliber would in any way alter Foxs insistence on running the ball any time he's not in third and very long? Whether or not Tebow can ever be a successful pocket passer, John Fox is probably the worst possible head coach to make him one: You can't develop a passer without passing.

Joel
01-01-2012, 11:54 PM
Believe me you don't want TO on this team with Tebow as the QB; TO will not have any patience with Tebow throwing helicopter passes or floating passes over the middle, or Tebow failing to connect/throw to the open receivers.
I don't want TO on this team, period. Didn't we force a trade on "Baby TO" because we didn't like his attitude? Why would we do that then pay a kings ransom for an older more beat up version who's never produced a championship and always produced headaches? Even Parcells couldn't instill any sense of discipline or dignity in the guy; what chance would Fox have? I want to give Tebow an elite receiver on whom he can rely, but despite his undeniable talent TO is anything except reliable.

Northman
01-01-2012, 11:55 PM
I think Fox has him playing scared, quite honestly. The concern about protecting the ball that produced a lot of throwaways earlier in the season has blossomed into full blown paranoia after all the picks against the Bills.

And also, quite honestly, the one consistency in this season for me has been that in EVERY post game press conference I've seen--win or lose--Fox has ALWAYS looked confused and scared. That's probably understandable; his game plan failed him in the losses, and most of the wins involved a lot of passing, a concept foreign and frightening to Fox. Really, how many times has Foxs Martyball offense WON us a game? We've had many unbelievable last second sand lot passing rallies, but how many times has playing tough D and running the ball down their throats all game WON us a game? I can't think of one; the closest we came were the wins agaisnt SD and NY, but there was a fair amount of passing in both, and the critical running successes were primarily from our QB, not our running backs.

I hate to say it but, whether Fox can win a championship or Tebow can win a championship, I don't think Fox can win a championship with Tebow. Maximizing Tebows potential requires creative offensive playcalling and calculated risks, and Fox is incapable of either. Ask yourself what Rodgers, Brady or Manning would do under Fox. Does anyone really believe passers of that caliber would in any way alter Foxs insistence on running the ball any time he's not in third and very long? Whether or not Tebow can ever be a successful pocket passer, John Fox is probably the worst possible head coach to make him one: You can't develop a passer without passing.

Unfortuantely, with all the talk about Tebow being mentally tough if he is doubting himself and second guessing that all falls on him. But his problems have been more than just last week as he struggled vs NE as well. He needs to be able to take the criticism from the coaching staff as much as the praise.

Joel
01-02-2012, 01:05 AM
Unfortuantely, with all the talk about Tebow being mentally tough if he is doubting himself and second guessing that all falls on him. But his problems have been more than just last week as he struggled vs NE as well. He needs to be able to take the criticism from the coaching staff as much as the praise.
True, but whether he has a nervous breakdown or not, he can't win games if the coaches put him in a straight jacket. Personally, I still think a lot of the problems boil down to a young team that rode the unbelievable "Tebow Time" finishes as far as it could, until it came to take them for granted, and the first time that didn't magically win a game they should've lost, the bottom dropped out of the whole team. That was my greatest fear going into the NE game: Not that we would lose, or even that we would lose badly, but that the whole team would go into a tailspin if we did, one that would extend far beyond that single game. Here we are three weeks later, without having won a single game since, even against weak Chiefs and Bills teams.

The thing is, watching him today I frequently had the feeling that the mental checklist he was running through when we had the ball was things the coaches had told him to AVOID rather than ACHIEVE. And that it was a very long list. If that's the case, they set him up to fail, because each of his many goals were things he should NOT do, not things he should accomplish. In that respect, he had an excellent game; he only turned the ball over once, and it didn't even get the other team points (just cost us an easy FG.) Of course, he didn't do anything else, but if our game plan was simply to avoid mistakes rather than score points, we executed it perfectly. And lost to a weak team that only scored once.

Nick
01-02-2012, 05:43 AM
I understand who RGIII is. He is the next Vince Young. I don't want any part of him hence the sit for another year with Tebow :noidea:

Nothing similar to VY. Tebow has a lot of similarities. This just shows your ignorance and how you have not seen rg3 play or just a tebow homer.

NameUsedBefore
01-02-2012, 06:55 AM
RGIII is the best player in the draft.

TXBRONC
01-02-2012, 09:20 AM
RGIII is the best player in the draft.

I don't know if he's the best player in the draft but he is one of the best and as such we wont have chance of drafting him.

Chef Zambini
01-02-2012, 09:55 AM
Orton sucked balls today as well. Pathetic that RC is happy about the game.this is tyhe response of a myopic dillusional tebow supporter. it is NOT about ORTON or one of the posters on this forum. it is about TEBOW. he is incompeyent as an NFL passer. it aint about his coaches or his receivers, it is about his inability nto complet an NFL quality pass
check out the video of all his back shoulder throw attempts.
THEY DONT EXIST !
Tim CANT make routine NFL throws.
he aint an NFL QB.
"had a bad day"
slap yourselves for that thought ! EVERY game TIMMY stinks, but somehow , thanks to our special teams, mis=haps to our opponents and a pocket full of miracles, we found a way to win 7 games even with timmy at QB.
How many winds did we manage with JMCD?
he had a 6-0 run too, anybody want him back?
TEBOW will NEVER be a servicable NFL QB, the only thing he did yesterday was take himself ogff the jags radar.

Chef Zambini
01-02-2012, 10:02 AM
God. I would rather they not draft one if it will be RGIII and sit through 16 more of Tebow.then you probably are having a hard time looking past the color of his skin and the way he weasrs his hair.
He graduated BOTH high school and college EARLY. he has a brain and he has NFL passing skills and mobility.
If you are a racist, I am wasting my time .
if not, then I will tell you that kellen Moore could show up this week in denver and be a better QB than TT to face the steelers next week.
Tebow is NOT an NFL quality QB and he never will be.

GEM
01-02-2012, 10:11 AM
then you probably are having a hard time looking past the color of his skin and the way he weasrs his hair.
He graduated BOTH high school and college EARLY. he has a brain and he has NFL passing skills and mobility.
If you are a racist, I am wasting my time .
if not, then I will tell you that kellen Moore could show up this week in denver and be a better QB than TT to face the steelers next week.
Tebow is NOT an NFL quality QB and he never will be.

Leave the race card out of the conversation.

rcsodak
01-02-2012, 03:41 PM
This may shock you, but......


.... IN A HEARTBEAT!!


At least Plummer could actually PLAY the position.

I almost take back everything i said about you. ;') :lol:

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rcsodak
01-02-2012, 03:43 PM
This is why I am wiling tip give Tim another year. I want to do see some improvement.

Lmao........youre killin' me! :laugh:

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rcsodak
01-02-2012, 03:44 PM
The sad part about Tebow is he seems to get worse each game.

To me he was good against Chicago and Minnesota. I know some hink he stunk up the joint for much of the Chicago game but it's just not true. Our WRs couldn't catch a damn thing for most of that game, Tebow was on the money throwing the ball for almost that entire game. But, he has regressed badly the last two weeks.

He has no anticipation and I don't know if you can really teach that.
:coffee:

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chazoe60
01-02-2012, 03:46 PM
:coffee:

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:coffee:

weazel
01-02-2012, 03:48 PM
any rookie qb could do better than what the spazz we have in there now is doing

rcsodak
01-02-2012, 03:54 PM
Nothing to do with Tebow and everything to do with RC's love of Orton, who was nothing short of pathetic today as well.

Funny how you cant seem to post without orton being mentioned, either.
:coffee:

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rcsodak
01-02-2012, 04:02 PM
True, but whether he has a nervous breakdown or not, he can't win games if the coaches put him in a straight jacket. Personally, I still think a lot of the problems boil down to a young team that rode the unbelievable "Tebow Time" finishes as far as it could, until it came to take them for granted, and the first time that didn't magically win a game they should've lost, the bottom dropped out of the whole team. That was my greatest fear going into the NE game: Not that we would lose, or even that we would lose badly, but that the whole team would go into a tailspin if we did, one that would extend far beyond that single game. Here we are three weeks later, without having won a single game since, even against weak Chiefs and Bills teams.

The thing is, watching him today I frequently had the feeling that the mental checklist he was running through when we had the ball was things the coaches had told him to AVOID rather than ACHIEVE. And that it was a very long list. If that's the case, they set him up to fail, because each of his many goals were things he should NOT do, not things he should accomplish. In that respect, he had an excellent game; he only turned the ball over once, and it didn't even get the other team points (just cost us an easy FG.) Of course, he didn't do anything else, but if our game plan was simply to avoid mistakes rather than score points, we executed it perfectly. And lost to a weak team that only scored once.
I seem to recall a fumble......multiple sacks of big yards, a couple shoulda/coulda picks.....

I'm not sure elway can coach TT to overcome, over a few months, whats taken 24yrs to ruin.

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jlarsiii
01-02-2012, 06:07 PM
I agree, but I think emphasizing no turnovers got into Tebow's head too much, and caused him to be overly cautious.

If or when the Broncos go with Tebow next season, he has to be allowed to pass the ball and make mistakes in order to get better. The coaches have to show confidence in him and his abilities.

I am sorry but the coaches can not go out on the field and kick Tebow in the ass to get him to actually throw the ball. That is all on him. If he hesitates to throw into a tight window because he lacks the accuracy, or the confidence in any accuracy, then that is all on him. You can't hold the coaches responsible for that.

I am growing tired of the excuses made for Tebow by some posters (not referring to you, nflfan, personally). I guess it is easier to blame anything, and anyone else rather then face the simple truth.

KCL
01-02-2012, 06:18 PM
I am sorry but the coaches can not go out on the field and kick Tebow in the ass to get him to actually throw the ball. That is all on him. If he hesitates to throw into a tight window because he lacks the accuracy, or the confidence in any accuracy, then that is all on him. You can't hold the coaches responsible for that.

I am growing tired of the excuses made for Tebow by some posters (not referring to you, nflfan, personally). I guess it is easier to blame anything, and anyone else rather then face the simple truth.

Yep..I have watched a few Denver games besides the two with KC...as much as he wants to win and I have never seen any "quit" in him...he isn't a good passer at all.He has made some good passes(the first Chiefs game) but for the most part he isn't good at it.

He really looked lost yesterday and totally out of his comfort zone.

Magnificent Seven
01-02-2012, 06:37 PM
Nah. I like Tebow. Never know... they might fire OC Mike McCoy and hire Norv Turner. Hire a new QB coach. Therefore, Elway planned to do some hands-on Tebow tutoring in during the off season.

Coaching system needs to be changed. Tebow needs some better coaches.

I believe that Tebow will train harder and harder in during the off season.

Joel
01-02-2012, 06:45 PM
I seem to recall a fumble......multiple sacks of big yards, a couple shoulda/coulda picks.....

I'm not sure elway can coach TT to overcome, over a few months, whats taken 24yrs to ruin.
There was a fumble; I covered that: It didn't score KC points (though it DID cost us points) and was the only BIG mistake. We can't complain every time he throws a ball that MIGHT have been picked, then turn around and complain that he doesn't anticipate split second windows: When you anticipate and throw into a tiny brief window there's a significant risk of a pick, so pick a horse and ride it. It's not fair or constructive to predetermine ANY decision he makes is wrong, then just wait for him to commit so we can declare it wrong. The sacks were bad, yes, but some of that is Foxball: He protected the ball and didn't risk a pick; live to punt another day, because any possession that ends with a kick is a good one.

Tebow's not ruined, but nothing short of a Super Bowl will change the minds of anyone already convinced he's hopeless. The kid needs work; most 24 year old NFL QBs do, but it's equally wrong to focus on the Vikings OR KC game to the exclusion of all others. He's taken big steps backward the past few weeks; he's refusing throws to open guys, and that, along with his ability to spot them, must change. If that becomes the pattern we'll have to go another way, but declaring him a failure based on a couple games is as pointless as declaring him a Hall of Famer based on a half dozen games. If, by some unimaginable chance, we beat Pitt, the Divisional round will bring Tebow to a full seasons worth of starts. Doesn't it seem a BIT premature to declare him washed up before we even get that far?

I am sorry but the coaches can not go out on the field and kick Tebow in the ass to get him to actually throw the ball. That is all on him. If he hesitates to throw into a tight window because he lacks the accuracy, or the confidence in any accuracy, then that is all on him. You can't hold the coaches responsible for that.

I am growing tired of the excuses made for Tebow by some posters (not referring to you, nflfan, personally). I guess it is easier to blame anything, and anyone else rather then face the simple truth.
I guess you can add McCoy to the list of people whose excuses weary you, because that "he will only develop if allowed to throw and learn from mistakes" is almost a verbatim quote of what McCoy said in that article last week about their "pep talk" after the Bills game. Then he comes out against KC visibly afraid to throw the ball and we run 47 times. Talk is cheap; when we throw twice as much as we run and our mobile gunslinger is eating sacks or refusing to throw, that tells me a lot more about coach confidence in his passing than all the Denver Post articles in the world.

Tebow has NEVER looked as heistant and fearful in any start as he did Sunday; to believe that doesn't mean Fox and Co. gave him a stern man to man about turnovers after the Bills game is to deny human nature (not to mention Fox nature; turnovers are a primary reason Fox only passes when he has NO OTHER CHOICE.) Tebow must still go out and get his job done anyway, but, quite honestly, with the shortage of weapons in his arsenal and a coach who thinks it's 1910, the deck does seem stacked against him.

Yep..I have watched a few Denver games besides the two with KC...as much as he wants to win and I have never seen any "quit" in him...he isn't a good passer at all.He has made some good passes(the first Chiefs game) but for the most part he isn't good at it.

He really looked lost yesterday and totally out of his comfort zone.
That's because he was. No doubt about it, the game Sunday was a big step backward; he played much better at Arrowhead, which is the only reason we won. He has to shake it off and recover to remain the starter.

However, from around the time of that first KC game until the Patriots game he noticeably improved each and every week, most obviously in the Vikings and Bears game, both of which were won almost entirely on the strength of his arm. The last game was not representative of Tebow this season, let alone what he's capable of in the future. The question is whether his mental toughness is more than bravado and he can pick himself up from the huge setbacks of the past few weeks.

I think there were many extenuating circumstances last week; the turnovers in Buffalo, lack of confidence in our generally mediocre offensive talent, Foxball forbidding risk taking once we had sole possession of first place in the AFC West and calling 2+ runs for every pass. Ultimately, however, none of that matters, and the fact remains that Sunday was a major REGRESSION in a QB that steadily and significantly progressed each week for two solid months--until the Pats game. He has to recover and perform as an NFL starting QB, or he won't be one; it really is that simple.

Yet if 7 improbable wins didn't perpetually vindicate Tebow, 2 ugly losses don't perpetually indict him either. Fact is, this ENTIRE TEAM COLLAPSED against NE and has yet to recover, but we're only talking about benching one guy. That's a rather pointlessly naïve debate, IMHO.

KCL
01-02-2012, 06:51 PM
Well that's how it is with some people...the team starts loosing and fingers are pointed at the QB.

Tebowtime2011
01-02-2012, 07:19 PM
Broncos dont even have the higher draft picks to hey him not even in the top 10 and he is supposed to go in the top 10 so no way is RG3 going to broncos because they have no intention of trading up

MOtorboat
01-02-2012, 07:30 PM
Broncos dont even have the higher draft picks to hey him not even in the top 10 and he is supposed to go in the top 10 so no way is RG3 going to broncos because they have no intention of trading up

Thanks for the insight, John.

rcsodak
01-02-2012, 11:00 PM
There was a fumble; I covered that: It didn't score KC points (though it DID cost us points) and was the only BIG mistake. We can't complain every time he throws a ball that MIGHT have been picked, then turn around and complain that he doesn't anticipate split second windows: When you anticipate and throw into a tiny brief window there's a significant risk of a pick, so pick a horse and ride it. It's not fair or constructive to predetermine ANY decision he makes is wrong, then just wait for him to commit so we can declare it wrong. The sacks were bad, yes, but some of that is Foxball: He protected the ball and didn't risk a pick; live to punt another day, because any possession that ends with a kick is a good one.

Tebow's not ruined, but nothing short of a Super Bowl will change the minds of anyone already convinced he's hopeless. The kid needs work; most 24 year old NFL QBs do, but it's equally wrong to focus on the Vikings OR KC game to the exclusion of all others. He's taken big steps backward the past few weeks; he's refusing throws to open guys, and that, along with his ability to spot them, must change. If that becomes the pattern we'll have to go another way, but declaring him a failure based on a couple games is as pointless as declaring him a Hall of Famer based on a half dozen games. If, by some unimaginable chance, we beat Pitt, the Divisional round will bring Tebow to a full seasons worth of starts. Doesn't it seem a BIT premature to declare him washed up before we even get that far?

I guess you can add McCoy to the list of people whose excuses weary you, because that "he will only develop if allowed to throw and learn from mistakes" is almost a verbatim quote of what McCoy said in that article last week about their "pep talk" after the Bills game. Then he comes out against KC visibly afraid to throw the ball and we run 47 times. Talk is cheap; when we throw twice as much as we run and our mobile gunslinger is eating sacks or refusing to throw, that tells me a lot more about coach confidence in his passing than all the Denver Post articles in the world.

Tebow has NEVER looked as heistant and fearful in any start as he did Sunday; to believe that doesn't mean Fox and Co. gave him a stern man to man about turnovers after the Bills game is to deny human nature (not to mention Fox nature; turnovers are a primary reason Fox only passes when he has NO OTHER CHOICE.) Tebow must still go out and get his job done anyway, but, quite honestly, with the shortage of weapons in his arsenal and a coach who thinks it's 1910, the deck does seem stacked against him.

That's because he was. No doubt about it, the game Sunday was a big step backward; he played much better at Arrowhead, which is the only reason we won. He has to shake it off and recover to remain the starter.

However, from around the time of that first KC game until the Patriots game he noticeably improved each and every week, most obviously in the Vikings and Bears game, both of which were won almost entirely on the strength of his arm. The last game was not representative of Tebow this season, let alone what he's capable of in the future. The question is whether his mental toughness is more than bravado and he can pick himself up from the huge setbacks of the past few weeks.

I think there were many extenuating circumstances last week; the turnovers in Buffalo, lack of confidence in our generally mediocre offensive talent, Foxball forbidding risk taking once we had sole possession of first place in the AFC West and calling 2+ runs for every pass. Ultimately, however, none of that matters, and the fact remains that Sunday was a major REGRESSION in a QB that steadily and significantly progressed each week for two solid months--until the Pats game. He has to recover and perform as an NFL starting QB, or he won't be one; it really is that simple.

Yet if 7 improbable wins didn't perpetually vindicate Tebow, 2 ugly losses don't perpetually indict him either. Fact is, this ENTIRE TEAM COLLAPSED against NE and has yet to recover, but we're only talking about benching one guy. That's a rather pointlessly naïve debate, IMHO.
The gimmick offense is over. Defenses now know, to beat denver, you hold the edge rushers back, and you bring pressure. The oline cant hold them off forever, and TT gets rattled. That, and have a defender w/in 5yds of his wr's and they're "covered".

Ditka said it, i repeated it and then i was called stupid. Constant pressure defeats TT. It started with chicago, and had they not shit their pants in the last 5mins, they wouldve won.
Every 1yd run play by TT is another minute off the clock. Teams will tease him with that all day.

Dont look now, but unless TT can find some magic, here comes a shutout.

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Joel
01-03-2012, 12:41 AM
The gimmick offense was never viable; you can't run the option in the NFL. What you CAN do, if you have good protection, good receivers and an accurate QB, is throw to multiple receivers all over the field. Tom Brady and Peyton Manning have made a career out of it, but we don't have Jeff Saturday or Logan Mankins, nor Wes Welker or Marvin Harrison. We have Eric Decker and Zane Beadles; our problems MIGHT go a BIT deeper than Tebow (but he's the only folks want to bench.)

You can also facilitate short passing and your backs running if your QB's also a legit rushing threat who doesn't go down on first contact; Roethlisberger's made a career out of that, though Rodgers is a helluva lot better at it (for one thing, he's light years better at passing.)

It did not start with Chicago; without what Elias and the NFL called 6 drops we bury the Bears in regulation (Tebow still got over the all important 50% completion mark.) In a sense, it started in Chicago, because that put us all alone in first place in the AFC West and switched Fox from "take desperate chances, do the unthinkable: THROW A PASS :shocked:" mode to "just not lose, baby" mode. Again, that hasn't worked too well in the unbroken string of losses since; I don't expect him to wake up after coaching like that for 10 years, but I have no choice save to hope.

If you just hold the edge rushers in position (which absolutely DOES screw the option) and blitz up the middle, Tebow has the ability to find open receivers if 1) your utter lack of pass protection doesn't put him in a three step drop every down, 2) your receivers get open then catch balls AND 3) you call a few passes on 1st and 10 instead of waiting for 3rd and 7 and/or a 20 point second half deficit. Here's a novel idea: How 'bout throwing a pass when NOT guaranteed a blitz? Of course, if none of those things happen, Tebow, Manning or Brady are equally screwed. How many passes has Peyton Manning completed this year?

Whole offense hasn't done its job all year: Shoot the QB for a single bad game. Makes perfect sense. C'mon, man, you're WAY too smart to fall into that "great QBs=great teams; bad teams=bad QBs" foolishness.

Chidoze
01-03-2012, 03:26 AM
Making his list....checking it twice.

RGIII?
MFlynn?
BVP?

6/22 60yds/0/1.

....nuff said

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No to 2 out of 3 of those players. Flynn is another one game wonder that wont do shit as a starter for another team that will over pay for his services that are backup caliber at best.

Maybe RG3.... but it's a Biiiiiiiig maybe. He'd have to be on a team with a lot of talent to succeed & the Broncos are certainly lacking in that department.

Thnikkaman
01-03-2012, 01:50 PM
Or and have a sense of humor when reading this.........

since the Chiefs season is over..drum roll please.............

























can we sign Orton again.........:laugh:

You can have him. The Orton you had on Sunday during the 2nd half of that game is the Orton we had for 2 years.

jhildebrand
01-03-2012, 02:03 PM
RG3 is so much smarter and a much more accurate passer than VY. That's not a fair assesment of RG3 at all Jhil.

Kid is a total class act. Great character guy. So in that regard he is not like VY.

The VY comparison was more how I think how his game will actually translate to the NFL.

Nick
01-03-2012, 02:10 PM
Kid is a total class act. Great character guy. So in that regard he is not like VY.

The VY comparison was more how I think how his game will actually translate to the NFL.

There game is the exact opposite. :coffee:

Thnikkaman
01-03-2012, 02:15 PM
There game is the exact opposite. :coffee:

Their

BroncoNut
01-03-2012, 03:46 PM
O.K. rcs. very good. just go towards the light

KCL
01-03-2012, 04:47 PM
You can have him. The Orton you had on Sunday during the 2nd half of that game is the Orton we had for 2 years.
meh I'll take 7 points for the win..it's a win.

Joel
01-03-2012, 05:45 PM
meh I'll take 7 points for the win..it's a win.
Orton's never had decent pass blocking in his pro career; he SHOULD'VE in Denver, but McDumbass dumped all but one of our best guards because he had some epiphany about Walton and Beadles being the second coming of Jerry Kramer and Forrest Gregg (oh, well....) Now that he has a servicable line the results could be very interesting--or traumatic for us.

'Cos the bottom line, Broncos fans, is that in 2011 Orton's had twice the wins in half the starts since going to KC. That's only 3 games, but the sole loss was only due to a blocked FG after he moved them in position to win it at the end of the game; the Raiders threw a strike that put THEM in FG range on the first play of OT, or the Chiefs would be AFC West Champs now and we'd be crying in our beer.

Look how much better Orton has done now that he doesn't have Walton and Beadles in front of him; I wonder if that would work for Tebow, too...? ;)

rcsodak
01-03-2012, 06:20 PM
Careful........."they're" watching your every post now.

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Northman
01-03-2012, 06:22 PM
Orton's never had decent pass blocking in his pro career;

This is just flat out false.

rcsodak
01-03-2012, 06:34 PM
This is just flat out false.
Ooooohhhhhhh......too late. Sorry Joel.

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Joel
01-03-2012, 06:46 PM
This is just flat out false.
Ah, I take it back, he did have fairly good pass blocking from Clady, Hamilton, Wiegmann, Kuper and Harris in 2009. So "Orton's only had decent pass blocking ONE year of his career" (arguably his best) then; better?

BroncoNut
01-04-2012, 11:27 AM
Ah, I take it back, he did have fairly good pass blocking from Clady, Hamilton, Wiegmann, Kuper and Harris in 2009. So "Orton's only had decent pass blocking ONE year of his career" (arguably his best) then; better?

a little bit Joel. but no need to be so smarmy with North. The man deserves more respect than that.

(just kidding, he totally does not)

Traveler
01-04-2012, 11:32 AM
Orton's never had decent pass blocking in his pro career; he SHOULD'VE in Denver, but McDumbass dumped all but one of our best guards because he had some epiphany about Walton and Beadles being the second coming of Jerry Kramer and Forrest Gregg (oh, well....) Now that he has a servicable line the results could be very interesting--or traumatic for us.

'Cos the bottom line, Broncos fans, is that in 2011 Orton's had twice the wins in half the starts since going to KC. That's only 3 games, but the sole loss was only due to a blocked FG after he moved them in position to win it at the end of the game; the Raiders threw a strike that put THEM in FG range on the first play of OT, or the Chiefs would be AFC West Champs now and we'd be crying in our beer.

Look how much better Orton has done now that he doesn't have Walton and Beadles in front of him; I wonder if that would work for Tebow, too...? ;)

Joel,

Are you really a Bronco fan? Many of your posts come across as being so negative.

Granted, things haven't been going well for the team the last three weeks, but must you always be so critical?

Chef Zambini
01-04-2012, 11:48 AM
Right now T2 has no rhythm coming from his arm! He'll have to develop that rhythm during the 6 months of the off season.

In fact I strongly suggest Tebow get on the phone and call Steve Young to see if he can rescue and save his career as a starting NFL QB that can perform from with in the pocket and from behind center.

In the playoffs, which ever team Denver plays you can be reassured that they will take away the spread-option and make Tim beat them with his arm.tebow had that chance last summer !

he failed to do what is necessary to improve.

I dont give a rats ass what his plaque in florida says, he failed to improve his skills last summer when he thought he was going to be the starting QB.
Tebow relys on faith and miracles.
now his pocket full of miracles is empty and he has to rely on his skill and ability.
' that has resulted in FAILURE! it used to be 55 minutes of incompetence and 5 minutes of miracles.
now its just 60 minutes of failure.

Chef Zambini
01-04-2012, 11:55 AM
Joel,

Are you really a Bronco fan? Many of your posts come across as being so negative.

Granted, things haven't been going well for the team the last three weeks, but must you always be so critical?JOEL is SMART, honest and OBJECTIVE. Perhaps thats why you have a problem with his posts.
I think JOEL is the best part of this forum, thats why I am here.
I like hearing what RATIONAL bronco fans are thinking, the rest I just catagorize as "entertainment"

Traveler
01-04-2012, 12:00 PM
JOEL is SMART, honest and OBJECTIVE. Perhaps thats why you have a problem with his posts.
I think JOEL is the best part of this forum, thats why I am here.
I like hearing what RATIONAL bronco fans are thinking, the rest I just catagorize as "entertainment"

Never claimed anything to the contrary. He does seem knowledgeable, but many his post come across as overly critical IMO.

Chef Zambini
01-04-2012, 12:11 PM
True, but whether he has a nervous breakdown or not, he can't win games if the coaches put him in a straight jacket. Personally, I still think a lot of the problems boil down to a young team that rode the unbelievable "Tebow Time" finishes as far as it could, until it came to take them for granted, and the first time that didn't magically win a game they should've lost, the bottom dropped out of the whole team. That was my greatest fear going into the NE game: Not that we would lose, or even that we would lose badly, but that the whole team would go into a tailspin if we did, one that would extend far beyond that single game. Here we are three weeks later, without having won a single game since, even against weak Chiefs and Bills teams.

The thing is, watching him today I frequently had the feeling that the mental checklist he was running through when we had the ball was things the coaches had told him to AVOID rather than ACHIEVE. And that it was a very long list. If that's the case, they set him up to fail, because each of his many goals were things he should NOT do, not things he should accomplish. In that respect, he had an excellent game; he only turned the ball over once, and it didn't even get the other team points (just cost us an easy FG.) Of course, he didn't do anything else, but if our game plan was simply to avoid mistakes rather than score points, we executed it perfectly. And lost to a weak team that only scored once.we lost 3-7
TEBOW tookus out of FG opportunities TWICE!
he did that all by himself ! once with a fumble and the second time scrambling out of FG range ! FOX whose conservativism you also rightly questioned ALSO took us out of FG opportunity at the end of the half!
So many tebow enthusiasts are questioning the gameplan and plays in their defense of TEBOW.
After the LIONS game that criticism was justified, but in the last 10 games the coaches have done all they can to make this offense more tebow friendly;
they just cant compensate for asll the tebow incompetence.

KCL
01-04-2012, 03:39 PM
JOEL is SMART, honest and OBJECTIVE. Perhaps thats why you have a problem with his posts.
I think JOEL is the best part of this forum, thats why I am here.
I like hearing what RATIONAL bronco fans are thinking, the rest I just catagorize as "entertainment"

I like this Chef person....:lol:

I have to agree with him Traveler..I think you can be a fan and be critical at the same time.Hell I've been reading several post in threads that people are now discouraged with Tebow and doesn't think he has what it takes to be a successful NFL QB.

TXBRONC
01-04-2012, 03:42 PM
Ah, I take it back, he did have fairly good pass blocking from Clady, Hamilton, Wiegmann, Kuper and Harris in 2009. So "Orton's only had decent pass blocking ONE year of his career" (arguably his best) then; better?

I think this season while Orton was the quarterback the protection was solid. I recall seveal instances where he had more than 3 seconds to throw the ball.

rcsodak
01-04-2012, 03:53 PM
Joel,

Are you really a Bronco fan? Many of your posts come across as being so negative.

Granted, things haven't been going well for the team the last three weeks, but must you always be so critical?
Why is it, if a fan has ANYTHING negative to say about the team, theyre fandom is questioned.

Thats shit, imo.

How about if I'd say if you cant make critical observations about something, then youre either myopic, blind, delusional, or on heavy meds.

As you can see, there are always two sides of a coin. :D


Ps. Many of our personal rights are already being taken from us. At least leave us our opinions.

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Traveler
01-04-2012, 09:55 PM
Why is it, if a fan has ANYTHING negative to say about the team, theyre fandom is questioned.

Thats shit, imo.

How about if I'd say if you cant make critical observations about something, then youre either myopic, blind, delusional, or on heavy meds.

As you can see, there are always two sides of a coin. :D


Ps. Many of our personal rights are already being taken from us. At least leave us our opinions.

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

At least it's good to see Joel has his supporters. We all have opinions and there's nothing I can do to take away that right.

It's obvious he follows the team as closely as most of us. But there is a difference between criticism and constructive criticism. Many of Joel's posts fall in the former IMO. Maybe he's just too emotionally connected.

Just asking a simple question of him. That is okay to do on a message board, right? Or is that infringing on ones personal right too?:D

Joel
01-04-2012, 11:03 PM
a little bit Joel. but no need to be so smarmy with North. The man deserves more respect than that.

(just kidding, he totally does not)
North's a sharp guy, but I thought "flat out false" an overstatement; I DID overlook Ortons one season of decent blocking, but that was the sole exception to his rule of Swiss cheese lines. When I heard about the Cutler trade, I felt as bad for him as I did for us, because the Bears pass blocking was so awful it's STILL pretty bad, even after substantial improvement. I wondered if Orton might actually be a star behind our line, which had only given up 11 sacks the previous year. We gave up 29 the next year, so the answer is "probably not," but responding by dumping 2/3 guards for rookie scrubs was clearly not the answer, and our pass blocking this year and last has been bad, too. Having to play behind those guys would make a LOT of folks faint. ;)

So, yeah, Orton had decent pass blocking once in his career, when he was already shell shocked, then promptly went back to running for his life. With a couple years behind good blockers he might get a lot better--or he might already be so conditioned to looking over his shoulder that he does it his entire career.

Joel,

Are you really a Bronco fan? Many of your posts come across as being so negative.

Granted, things haven't been going well for the team the last three weeks, but must you always be so critical?
Yeah, I'm really a Broncos fan, though not an old timer. It's kind of an amusing story: After Dallas started the the '94 NFCCG by giving up 3 TDs on as many turnovers, I said to myself they'd be out for vengeance next year and go all the way; they did just that, and the way they beat GB in THAT NFCCG told me the same thing would happen with the Pack in '96, and once again it did.

So I found myself in the strange position of having picked two consecutive Super Bowl winners at the end of the PREVIOUS years Conference Championships. I wanted to know if it was a fluke, so I surveyed the League and took a bit of a gamble before the next season: I picked Denver (remember: Back then, the AFC hadn't won a Super Bowl since the '83 Raiders.) It wasn't a random choice; they looked like the best team, and all those years reading and re-reading The Hidden Game of Football (not to mention watching Jimmy Johnsons Cowboys) told me anyone who recognized the offensive lines importance as well as Shanahan does has a big leg up on everyone else. By the time the Broncos became my pre-season pick to REPEAT (and had a season for the record books along the way,) I was sold. Losing Shanny was a gut check for me, but I don't bail (not even on the Oilers; Bud Adams bailed on ME, and putting "Luv Ya Blue" on the '99 AFC Championship Rings doesn't change that; also, he broke my string of picking Super Bowl Champs in pre-season, but his teams always choke and I shouldn't have ignored that.)

So, yeah, really a Broncos fan, though between Kubiak running the Texans so well and bringing Bum Phillips son back home to Houston I won't deny I have divided loyalties at the moment. I'm critical of so many guys on our team because so many of them warrant so much criticism and correction, and because so many fellow fans are so eager to dump that all on the second year QB. MOST of our offensive starters are second year players; do ya'll really expect a rookie QB taken with the #21 pick to do better than the last two? Fix the line, stop trading away Pro Bowl receivers and give WHOEVER'S under center some time to develop with the accessories without which that development is impossible. As someone who became a Broncos fan more for their great line than for Elway, what I've seen the last couple years is disgusting, and only underscores what a stellar offensive line Kubiak has (why did we let Chris Myers go again...?)

I get your point about constructive criticism, but in far too many cases the only constructive thing I can see is to find a much better player to start for us. And I'm definitely emotionally invested; I'm INCREDIBLY frustrated with our line and have been since last year. They may be WORSE this season; I'm hoping Clady is just hobbled by a nagging injury and will be his old dominating self after an off season to heal, but as it stands (and I use the term loosely) the only Denver lineman in whom I was fully confident had his foot spun around 180° last week and may never be the same. Our second year receivers may develop into playmakers (and hopefully not get traded) but our line is a disaster right now, and we can't run OR pass without a good line. Hopefully Clady, Kuper and Harris are healthy effective starters for us next year; IF those things happen AND Franklin can be strong at guard I'll just be complaining about Walton every week (but how important is a center, really? :mad:)

we lost 3-7
TEBOW tookus out of FG opportunities TWICE!
he did that all by himself ! once with a fumble and the second time scrambling out of FG range ! FOX whose conservativism you also rightly questioned ALSO took us out of FG opportunity at the end of the half!
So many tebow enthusiasts are questioning the gameplan and plays in their defense of TEBOW.
After the LIONS game that criticism was justified, but in the last 10 games the coaches have done all they can to make this offense more tebow friendly;
they just cant compensate for asll the tebow incompetence.
See previous paragraph. The KC loss is largely on Tebow, who almost certainly cost us the 2 FGs you note (I say, "almost" because THREE Bears came through the center of our line to block a chip shot FG; when Fox declined the FG before the half, I doubt he was thinking of Prater. ;)) Tebow appeared in full panic mode against KC and it nearly cost us the Division. The Bills game, I can't say; I only saw the first half, when Tebow did little more than hand off for an hour or so. The Pats game was a team wide train wreck, but since we didn't start passing until down 18 in the 4th (when we got our only score since the 1st quarter) I can't put that on Tebows arm. His biggest "error" was not throwing it away fast enough when he saw an unblocked LB charging him on a 2nd quarter option play, and lost the ball.

In previous games, however, his PASSING steadily significantly improved, to the point even our conservative coaches began letting him pass more, culminating in a Bears game that would've been a blowout without all the drops (per Elias and the NFL, not Tebois,) and only got to OT and victory because of good D and PASSING (NOT running.) He took a big step back after the Bills game, unquestionably, but if we can't crown him Elway 2.0 after 7 wins largely produced by his arm, we shouldn't condemn as a failure after 1 or 2 losses produced the same way. Give him his first off season under intensive Hall of Famer tutelage, decent pass blocking and actually keeping a Pro Bowl WR or two, then see what happens; if he's still playing like he did against KC next Halloween, bench him. It's still too soon to commit either way right now.

I think this season while Orton was the quarterback the protection was solid. I recall seveal instances where he had more than 3 seconds to throw the ball.
More than 3 seconds isn't solid protection; consistently giving your QB 5 or more seconds is solid protection. We did that against KC, and guys got open a few times, but even when he saw them Tebow didn't pull the trigger. That's on him, but I can understand it given how unexpected it must have been after 10 games without good protection or open receivers (or receivers who CAUGHT passes when open.)

Orton had the most sacks of his career LAST year (and remember: He started out in CHICAGO) and started this season with 5 sacks against the Raiders. It got better after that, but by the time he left the game against SD we'd still given up 9 sacks in 4.5 games. That's not great protection; it's about average, and probably went down after Clady reinjured his right leg against Minnesota.
http://www.nfl.com/player/kyleorton/2506444/gamelogs

Meanwhile: "Just saw Elway" in a Woody Paige article saying Tebow has to "pull the trigger" this Sunday (hadn't read the article when I used the phrase above, but that WAS the missing ingredient against KC.)
http://www.denverpost.com/paige
He may be shopping QBs if that doesn't happen, but if we run 50 times he may be shopping COACHES. ;) Either way, at least publicly, what we're hearing from Elway, Fox and McCoy isn't "Tebow's a crappy passer" but "Tebow must throw more passes." We'll see Sunday if the reality matches the rhetoric, and whether Tebow answers the challenge or does a fainting goat routine of his own.