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Denver Native (Carol)
12-30-2011, 11:18 PM
It would have surprised absolutely no one if Tim Tebow had been on the receiving end of a tirade from the Broncos coaching staff during and after last week’s four-turnover day in Buffalo.

But that’s not Mike McCoy’s style.

“The first thing I told him after the game was, ‘Tim, don’t ever question yourself,’” McCoy said following practice today.

rest - http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2011/12/29/tebow-gets-pep-talk-about-turnovers/11523/

GiantTebow
12-30-2011, 11:36 PM
Just play smart football Timmy, thats all you have to do.

Broncos Mtnman
12-31-2011, 12:30 AM
AWWWWW, ain't the tweet.....?

Certainly don't want to have Timmy feeling bad about 8 turnovers in two games, both of them blowout losses.

Maybe Timmy needs a little Stuart Smalley so he can feel better about his screwups....

-DIETlxquzY

BroncoWave
12-31-2011, 12:35 AM
??? Tebow hasn't turned it over 8 times in the past 2 games...

bcbronc
12-31-2011, 01:32 AM
??? Tebow hasn't turned it over 8 times in the past 2 games...

nah, only 7 times in the past 3 games. Still too many.

Sinthor
12-31-2011, 01:38 AM
What games have you been watching? Tebow certainly has not had 7 turnovers. Try to come with the correct facts when you troll.

Clipworthy
12-31-2011, 02:16 AM
so.... who's giving McCoy a pep talk about that 2nd quarter

rcsodak
12-31-2011, 02:29 AM
AWWWWW, ain't the tweet.....?

Certainly don't want to have Timmy feeling bad about 8 turnovers in two games, both of them blowout losses.

Maybe Timmy needs a little Stuart Smalley so he can feel better about his screwups....

-DIETlxquzY
Yikes......me and mtn on the same side of the cornrow! :eek:

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rcsodak
12-31-2011, 02:32 AM
so.... who's giving McCoy a pep talk about that 2nd quarter
So theres a player named mccoy?

Problem is, you dont know when TT makes the wrong line read and calls run instead of pass.

Only they know.

(And the shadow)

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Locnar
12-31-2011, 11:13 AM
What games have you been watching? Tebow certainly has not had 7 turnovers. Try to come with the correct facts when you troll.

You do realize fumbles count as turnovers don't you?

Nomad
12-31-2011, 11:19 AM
John Ritchie just said that in a 105 dropbacks by Tebow he has 4 picks and 4 fumbles and a sucky completion percentage. I don't know, I don't follow the stats that closely.

All I know is Tebow needs to protect the ball better than he has the last 2 games, hit his targets and his targets need to catch the ball. I expect KC to run the same defense as NE and BUFF. McCoy needs to be very creative too but it falls on Tebow and his offense executing the plays.

Defense/ST need to step up as well and create turnovers.

Mike
12-31-2011, 11:59 AM
There is no doubt that Tebow has struggled, he is not seeing wide open receivers and that is a problem. Not unexpected given how green he is though.

But McCoy has to do a better job with creating a game plan and he has to be able to adjust to what the defense is doing. You cannot sit on a 3-4 point lead through 3 quarters and you have to be able to adapt when the defense adjusts to you. This offense is capable of a lot more, but they buckle down and get over conservative.

This plays against Tebow's strengths and it plays into the defense's hands as the inevitable 2nd qtr collapse causes the Broncos to need to play catch up. Putting the defenses as aggressors and taking away a key factor in Tebow's game.

No doubt players have to execute, but I have maintained that even during the winning streak that the OC was doing nobody any favors. Calling a game not to lose is not going to get it done. It requires near perfect execution in all three aspects of the team and that just isn't sustainable.

Nomad
12-31-2011, 12:06 PM
Win or lose....I expect McCoy to be out the door. I saw Jim Fassel's name floating around somewhere.

BroncoStud
12-31-2011, 12:26 PM
Win or lose....I expect McCoy to be out the door. I saw Jim Fassel's name floating around somewhere.

I would be SHOCKED if they get rid of McCoy. Don't forget he and Fox go back to Carolina together...

Nomad
12-31-2011, 12:28 PM
I would be SHOCKED if they get rid of McCoy. Don't forget he and Fox go back to Carolina together...

So it's another Shanahan scenerio where friendship is more valued than being held accountable for ineptness as a coordinator.

MOtorboat
12-31-2011, 12:30 PM
Dear Tim,

You aren't good enough to overcome turnovers. So, we'd appreciate it if you didn't turn the ball over.

Sincerely,

Your coaching staff

BroncoWave
12-31-2011, 12:37 PM
Dear Coaching Staff,

Your inept playcalling after the first drive does not suit my skillset at all. I'm best when the defense doesn't know when to expect run or pass from me. But thanks for the 15 straight run plays that didn't fool the defense at all and put us in a huge hole.

Sincerely,

Tim Tebow

MOtorboat
12-31-2011, 12:43 PM
They have to work around his deficincies. I know that's a hard thing to understand, but it is what it is and was clearly highlighted against Buffalo. Any complaint of conservative play calling is pretty much bunk after they let the reins off last week.

BroncoWave
12-31-2011, 12:47 PM
They have to work around his deficincies. I know that's a hard thing to understand, but it is what it is and was clearly highlighted against Buffalo. Any complaint of conservative play calling is pretty much bunk after they let the reins off last week.

In the first 2.5 quarters, we ran two drives in which the coaches actually called a balanced mix of run and pass. Those drives both resulted in touchdowns. By the time they "took the reigns off" we were down two touchdowns and the Bills knew we had to pass on every play. He was passing quite well when it was actually a close game and the playcalling was balanced. The picks all came when we were down by two scores and abandoned the run game.

I know you hate Tebow, but if you're actually giving the coaching staff a pass on their playcalling then there really isn't much else to say to you on this, because you weren't watching that game objectively.

Ravage!!!
12-31-2011, 01:05 PM
Ahhhh... More blame on play calling. Never heard that before. The coaches spend 80 hours a week studying the other team and coming up w a gameplan that goes against their personnel matchups, defincencies, and patterns....yet we think we know how to be an OC because we can say ...balance.

No wonder fans are referred to as stupid with their complaints.

jhildebrand
12-31-2011, 01:09 PM
Ahhhh... More blame on play calling. Never heard that before. The coaches spend 80 hours a week studying the other team and coming up w a gameplan that goes against their personnel matchups, defincencies, and patterns....yet we think we know how to be an OC because we can say ...balance.

No wonder fans are referred to as stupid with their complaints.

12 straight ruin plays in the 2nd quarter 80% of which were from the same formation. Not exactly creative. When the 2nd quarter is as bad as it has been ALL YEAR (including w/ Orton under center) it starts being less about the players and more about the coaches.

Also, Fox has acknowledged several times that the challenge with Tebow at QB is GAMEPLANNING he as all but admitted that a lot of it is on the fly!

BroncoWave
12-31-2011, 01:21 PM
Ahhhh... More blame on play calling. Never heard that before. The coaches spend 80 hours a week studying the other team and coming up w a gameplan that goes against their personnel matchups, defincencies, and patterns....yet we think we know how to be an OC because we can say ...balance.

No wonder fans are referred to as stupid with their complaints.

I guess the Denver media is stupid too because some of them are saying the same thing.

But you're right, our OC is the genius and we simpleton fans just don't know a thing. Our eyes were deceiving us when the balanced playcalling in the first drives of each half led to touchdowns and calling nothing but runs in the second quarter led to punts and calling nothing but passes late led to picks.

Surely balanced playcalling isn't the answer to those problems. What our "genius" OC did worked perfectly!

BroncoWave
12-31-2011, 01:23 PM
12 straight ruin plays in the 2nd quarter 80% of which were from the same formation. Not exactly creative. When the 2nd quarter is as bad as it has been ALL YEAR (including w/ Orton under center) it starts being less about the players and more about the coaches.

Also, Fox has acknowledged several times that the challenge with Tebow at QB is GAMEPLANNING he as all but admitted that a lot of it is on the fly!

He doesn't have that excuse this week since he has tape on how KC tried to defend Tebow. We'll see if the playcalling improves I suppose.

MOtorboat
12-31-2011, 01:27 PM
Can someone please explain to me how McCoy's playcalling has caused the turnovers?

BroncoWave
12-31-2011, 01:29 PM
Can someone please explain to me how McCoy's playcalling has caused the turnovers?

No one has said they were the only cause of the turnovers. Tebow committed them. But when your playcalling puts the team in a two touchdown hole (should have been MUCH more had Buffalo not been shooting themselves in the foot so much) and the team starts passing on every play, it puts a YOUNG QB (which people seem to forget Tebow is) in a bad situation in which he will become susceptible to turnovers.

jhildebrand
12-31-2011, 01:38 PM
Can someone please explain to me how McCoy's playcalling has caused the turnovers?

Directly, it hasnt. Indirectly, it has.

For me it isn't just balance but creativity and experience.

McCoy/Fox dialed up 12 straight run plays in the second quarter. Again, most from the same formation. The D was obviously very comfortable with that formation. What makes it worse is it came after the clinic that was our first drive. Why? :confused: They had 3-4 passes that first drive which was enough to keep Buffalo off balance. I even posted in the gameday thread it was McD's playbook-run left, run right, run middle punt.

The entire time TT has been QB they have been all about not putting too much on him. Then this game they did just that. It was like the 05 AFCCG again.

spikerman
12-31-2011, 01:40 PM
Wasn't Tebow something like 3/4 in the first half? Unless they were running all over Buffalo (and except for the first drive, they weren't), that is terrible play calling.

Softskull
12-31-2011, 01:40 PM
What games have you been watching? Tebow certainly has not had 7 turnovers. Try to come with the correct facts when you troll.

4 picks and 3 fumbles equal seven. He also coughed it up 3 more times that were recovered by the Broncos during that span. Like Mike said, not really unexpected from someone so green, but troubling.

The Broncos had that great winning streak because Tebow wasn't turning the ball over. That may have been more luck than Tebow's skill. Throwing balls so poorly that even the defenders can't catch them does not make you a ball control QB.

Nomad
12-31-2011, 01:42 PM
Wasn't Tebow something like 3/4 in the first half? Unless they were running all over Buffalo (and except for the first drive, they weren't), that is terrible play calling.

I blame those damn refs....it's always the refs.:flute::D

BroncoWave
12-31-2011, 01:46 PM
Wasn't Tebow something like 3/4 in the first half? Unless they were running all over Buffalo (and except for the first drive, they weren't), that is terrible play calling.

Yep, he was passing quite well for the first 2.5 quarters. Not sure why McCoy abandoned it for most of the first half.

MOtorboat
12-31-2011, 01:48 PM
The first half gameplan also won 7 of the last 10 games. Why would he go away from it?

The second half is why he shouldn't.

spikerman
12-31-2011, 01:48 PM
I blame those damn refs....it's always the refs.:flute::D

Jerk. :cool:

jhildebrand
12-31-2011, 01:54 PM
The first half gameplan also won 7 of the last 10 games. Why would he go away from it?

The second half is why he shouldn't.

I would argue the first half game plans did just enough to keep the team in it and the 2nd half gameplans won the games hence the comebacks.

The team opened up the full playbook against Miami, Chicago, Minnesota, etc...

Also, as HORRIBLE as our 2nd quarters have been, including the 5 games Orton was under center, tells you it isn't necessarily a player issue as it is a staff issue. But I digress. I wouldn't call our 2nd quarters part of the winning formula. They are ATROCIOUS!

rcsodak
12-31-2011, 01:58 PM
John Ritchie just said that in a 105 dropbacks by Tebow he has 4 picks and 4 fumbles and a sucky completion percentage. I don't know, I don't follow the stats that closely.

All I know is Tebow needs to protect the ball better than he has the last 2 games, hit his targets and his targets need to catch the ball. I expect KC to run the same defense as NE and BUFF. McCoy needs to be very creative too but it falls on Tebow and his offense executing the plays.

Defense/ST need to step up as well and create turnovers.
Clady better prove his PB voters right and stop Hali.
Joke he got voted in this year.

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BroncoWave
12-31-2011, 02:00 PM
Clady better prove his PB voters right and stop Hali.
Joke he got voted in this year.

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Do you have anything positive to say about any player on the the team you claim to be a fan of? Sure doesn't seem like it.

MOtorboat
12-31-2011, 02:01 PM
Clady better prove his PB voters right and stop Hali.
Joke he got voted in this year.

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I might be a pessimistic ******* myself, but jeebus man, is there anything you enjoy about this team?

rcsodak
12-31-2011, 02:03 PM
Ahhhh... More blame on play calling. Never heard that before. The coaches spend 80 hours a week studying the other team and coming up w a gameplan that goes against their personnel matchups, defincencies, and patterns....yet we think we know how to be an OC because we can say ...balance.

No wonder fans are referred to as stupid with their complaints.
Agree.
Most analysts say qb's are given a run/pass option on each play.
Its up to the qb to decide which one, depending on the defensive read.
Its not too hard to fathom that TT is struggling with a) reading the D and b) struggling with his confidence.

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rcsodak
12-31-2011, 02:05 PM
He doesn't have that excuse this week since he has tape on how KC tried to defend Tebow. We'll see if the playcalling improves I suppose.
Problem is, this is also the 1st team that TT has to play a 2nd time.

Plus, orton knows what the cb's/s's can and cannot do.

Advantage kc.

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rcsodak
12-31-2011, 02:06 PM
No one has said they were the only cause of the turnovers. Tebow committed them. But when your playcalling puts the team in a two touchdown hole (should have been MUCH more had Buffalo not been shooting themselves in the foot so much) and the team starts passing on every play, it puts a YOUNG QB (which people seem to forget Tebow is) in a bad situation in which he will become susceptible to turnovers.

How did they get down by 2td's in the 1st place?

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rcsodak
12-31-2011, 02:08 PM
Do you have anything positive to say about any player on the the team you claim to be a fan of? Sure doesn't seem like it.
I'md rather be honest, thank you very much.

Kuper was the best player on the OL. Did he get a sniff?

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BroncoWave
12-31-2011, 02:20 PM
How did they get down by 2td's in the 1st place?

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Well Tebow was 6/10 for 73 yards, 1 TD, no INT at that point so you tell me.

KCL
12-31-2011, 03:05 PM
I blame those damn refs....it's always the refs.:flute::D

I agree...now you know why KC has only won 6 games...:lol:

spikerman
12-31-2011, 03:18 PM
I agree...now you know why KC has only won 6 games...:lol:

In this case I would fully support the refs. :D

NameUsedBefore
12-31-2011, 03:32 PM
Can someone please explain to me how McCoy's playcalling has caused the turnovers?

Because he ran Denver out of the game. You don't have to look very far to realize Buffalo has a ballhawking defense that robs one-sided offenses blind. It tore apart Vick and Brady with absolute ease. To run 12-15 in a row in the 2nd quarter is completely indefensible, especially against a team that is slowly overcoming your lead. And then to turn around in the late-game and pass over and over is just asking for a disaster. Denver's receivers have a difficult time getting open even when the gameplan is balanced. Buffalo did something few teams have done so far which is respect Tebow's passing. They dropped everyone into blanket coverage. Pretty much downhill from there and that's absolutely on the coordinator for putting the team in that situation with his total shit playcalling.

Locnar
12-31-2011, 05:42 PM
Because he ran Denver out of the game. You don't have to look very far to realize Buffalo has a ballhawking defense that robs one-sided offenses blind. It tore apart Vick and Brady with absolute ease. To run 12-15 in a row in the 2nd quarter is completely indefensible, especially against a team that is slowly overcoming your lead. And then to turn around in the late-game and pass over and over is just asking for a disaster. Denver's receivers have a difficult time getting open even when the gameplan is balanced. Buffalo did something few teams have done so far which is respect Tebow's passing. They dropped everyone into blanket coverage. Pretty much downhill from there and that's absolutely on the coordinator for putting the team in that situation with his total shit playcalling.

Thank you.

http://i1028.photobucket.com/albums/y344/MichaelAnthonyHunt/more%20gifs/rnd-rudy.gif

bcbronc
12-31-2011, 07:25 PM
To run 12-15 in a row in the 2nd quarter is completely indefensible,

Okay, everyone has been saying this, and I went with the assumption that someone actually checked. I decided to take a look anyway, seeing I'm a bit skeptical in general, and guess what? It's all a big lie! Conspiracy!!

From what I can tell looking at the play by play on NFL.com ( http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2011122400/2011/REG16/broncos@bills#menu=drivechart&tab=analyze&analyze=playbyplay ) there were only two series that were all runs, and both included coming up short on 3rd and 1. I dunno, but when you get 9 yards on runs on 1st and 2nd down, it's not terrible play calling to try to convert 3rd and 1 on the ground.

Here are our series after the TD drive until the end of the half:

5:03 left in first Quarter:
1and10: 3yd run
2and7: pass attempt, holding on Clady
2and17: 12 yard sack (pass attempt)
3and29 from Den 16: 4yd run
Punt

:25 1st quarter
1/10: 1yd run
2/9: 1 yd run
3/8: 5 yd PASS
punt

10:34 2nd quarter
1/10: 1yd run
2/9: 1yd run
3/8: incomplete PASS (should have been a TD to Decker, but badly underthrown)
punt

6:06 2nd Q
1/10: 6yd run
2/4: 3 yd run
3/1: 0 yd run
punt returned for TD

4:05 2nd Q
1/10 from DEN 7: 5 yd run
2/5: 4yd run
3/1: 0 yd run
punt

One more play, Tebow took a knee before half.

so 12 running plays, 4 passing attempts. Not exactly "balanced" okay, but there is some context: as mentioned, two of the drives we got to 3rd and 1 but couldn't convert (and one of those drives started inside our 10). Some might say we need to pass more on 1st down, and that's a valid criticism, but it ignores what happens when Tebow starts throwing more (ie turnovers).

Anyways, not looking to make excuses for McCoy; I don't like him or his play calling anymore than anyone else does. But there wasn't 12 straight run plays so we can put that to rest. Too many runs, maybe but again running on 3rd and 1 isn't stupid and running on 1st/2nd down is what got us 6 wins in a row with Tebow behind (not under) center.

MOtorboat
12-31-2011, 08:01 PM
That's what I get for assuming people actually knew what they were talking about.

The only problem there in playcalling was the one drive where they ended up in third and long, and of course, that was the pass underthrown by 25 yards. The other two third downs in the second quarter were on the running game executing a one-yard play, not the playcalling.

And then McCoy tries to open it up in the third and his quarterback shit the bed.

Broncos Mtnman
12-31-2011, 08:11 PM
What games have you been watching? Tebow certainly has not had 7 turnovers. Try to come with the correct facts when you troll.

A fumble and an INT against Chicago = 2
A fumble against NE = 1
A fumble and 3 INT against Buffalo = 4

That's 7 junior.

:coffee:

Broncos Mtnman
12-31-2011, 08:13 PM
??? Tebow hasn't turned it over 8 times in the past 2 games...

I meant to type 3 games.

I was also wrong about 8 - It was only 7.

That makes it much better /sarcasm

:coffee:

KCL
12-31-2011, 08:13 PM
So sometimes the OC can be the cause of things not going well?
Or does that depend on who the QB is..;)

Broncos Mtnman
12-31-2011, 08:14 PM
Yikes......me and mtn on the same side of the cornrow! :eek:

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Well, it is 2012 tomorrow. I guess the world really IS coming to an end.... :lol:

BroncoWave
12-31-2011, 08:23 PM
No one is saying that Tebow is perfect or even anything better than an average QB, and no one is saying he wasn't partly responsible for the last 2 losses, other than the gator fans on here, but to just completely ignore McCoy and the playcalling and to give him a pass while putting it all on Tebow is just bull-headed and ridiculous. You just aren't watching the game objectively if you don't think the playcalling is a major reason for our struggles.

MOtorboat
12-31-2011, 08:26 PM
So running on third and one was a bad play call? That playcalling helped win seven of the last 10 games with a quarterback who is not ready to be a full-time NFL quarterback.

I made the mistake of assuming you all were right about the 12 straight run plays.

Obviously, I shouldn't have trusted that info...

catfish
12-31-2011, 08:59 PM
So running on third and one was a bad play call? That playcalling helped win seven of the last 10 games with a quarterback who is not ready to be a full-time NFL quarterback.

I made the mistake of assuming you all were right about the 12 straight run plays.

Obviously, I shouldn't have trusted that info...

I think the beef is more not throwing on 2nd and 4, or 2nd and 5. A run on 3rd an 1 is to be expected, why they didn't get converted is another issue. Or the fact that the 2nd and 3rd drive runs on first and second put them in 3rd and long situations.

MOtorboat
12-31-2011, 09:09 PM
If they were in third and one that's a completely moot point.

catfish
12-31-2011, 09:17 PM
If they were in third and one that's a completely moot point.

I don't understand what you are trying to say? Was this in response to my post?

bcbronc
12-31-2011, 10:31 PM
I think the beef is more not throwing on 2nd and 4, or 2nd and 5. A run on 3rd an 1 is to be expected, why they didn't get converted is another issue. Or the fact that the 2nd and 3rd drive runs on first and second put them in 3rd and long situations.

thing is, that exact same play calling marched the ball down the Bills' throat in the first drive, which some have exalted as "balanced". First five plays and every first down play on that drive: run. Overall, 9 runs vs 2 pass.

We're a run first team with a conservative coach. Take Tebow completely out of the equation for a moment, Fox isn't going to give up on the running game after three drives, especially when we ran the ball down their throat on the first one.

BtB, it's not about saying McCoy doesn't deserve blame. I'm no bigger a fan of his than you are, although I do give him credit for swallowing his pride and basically letting Tebow design an offense that works to TT's skill set. In this particular game though, imo it was more execution than game plan or play calling. As has been noted, they picked Brady four times, Tebow HAS to be protected at this point in his development.

When TT misses 7 points underthrowing Decker, it's execution not playcalling. When our offense can't convert a 3rd and 1 after picking up 9 the previous two snaps (and leading the league in rushing) it's execution not play calling. It's easy to say "throw more on 2nd down" but you have to acknowledge that vs decent defensive secondaries, bad things happen when we air it out too much.

Going into the game with KC, we need to get back to being too conservative, it's what wins us games. Pound the rock, get manageable 3rd downs, end each possession with a kick etc. It's the reality of playing Tebow at this point of his development with playoffs on the line: McCoy has to gameplan with one hand tied behind his back.

Both the last two weeks, we were in the games until the TOs started.

catfish
12-31-2011, 11:16 PM
thing is, that exact same play calling marched the ball down the Bills' throat in the first drive, which some have exalted as "balanced". First five plays and every first down play on that drive: run. Overall, 9 runs vs 2 pass.

We're a run first team with a conservative coach. Take Tebow completely out of the equation for a moment, Fox isn't going to give up on the running game after three drives, especially when we ran the ball down their throat on the first one.

BtB, it's not about saying McCoy doesn't deserve blame. I'm no bigger a fan of his than you are, although I do give him credit for swallowing his pride and basically letting Tebow design an offense that works to TT's skill set. In this particular game though, imo it was more execution than game plan or play calling. As has been noted, they picked Brady four times, Tebow HAS to be protected at this point in his development.

When TT misses 7 points underthrowing Decker, it's execution not playcalling. When our offense can't convert a 3rd and 1 after picking up 9 the previous two snaps (and leading the league in rushing) it's execution not play calling. It's easy to say "throw more on 2nd down" but you have to acknowledge that vs decent defensive secondaries, bad things happen when we air it out too much.

Going into the game with KC, we need to get back to being too conservative, it's what wins us games. Pound the rock, get manageable 3rd downs, end each possession with a kick etc. It's the reality of playing Tebow at this point of his development with playoffs on the line: McCoy has to gameplan with one hand tied behind his back.

Both the last two weeks, we were in the games until the TOs started.

the problem being if you don't mix it up you hamstring your offense by being 1 dimensional...IIRC they threw it 6 times in the first half and 23 times in the 2nd half. 1st half after the first drive they stacked the box, and the run game stalled, they cam out in the 2nd half passed it down the field and scored, then continued trying to pass every down even when the bills started dropping 7 into coverage and double teaming multiple receivers until the game was out of hand. If the Denver coaches really think Tebow can't throw the ball at all then they need to sit him down and play Quinn, you can't afford to have a qb who you don't think can throw. You can't have a game where one half your team does nothing but run and the next it does nothing but pass.

If they think he can throw then there is zero reason to not mix it up at least a little bit.. I think they should be aiming for 10-12 passes a half not 23, this team isn't built for an explosive passing game, a mix of 1st, 2nd and 3rd down passes would at least keep the D from stacking 9 in the box unless it is an obvious passing down in which case they blitz the hell out of the QB

As you mentioned the playcalling has worked so far as it is, I do feel that this team is much better suited for a run game control the clock type of game and as long as the D can keep it close they have a shot. You are correct they were in the game until the turnovers, I think had the D been able to hold and they could have had another half where it was throw it 10 times and keep the run game going they could have pulled it out. When the Bills went up 2 scores and Denver was forced to throw on that secondary they were screwed.

I equate it to Green Bay, they pretty much rely on Rodgers to put up points to get them the wins without relying to heavy on the D(even though the D is decent) that is just the type of team they are, if rodgers has a shitty game(see KC) they are screwed. This is a Defensive team if the D doesn't keep it close they are screwed. Denver can't transition to a pass attack team if they get behind any more than Green Bay can transition to a stout D run the ball team if Rodgers goes down.

Either way I honestly thought that Fox had written off the season when he put Tebow in and traded Lloyd and was only expecting 3-4 more wins, so this is all gravy to me. I am very happy with the progress of some young players at several different position I see flashes of brilliance, it is just consistency, and that will come with time IMO.

I try to remember that this is the 2nd youngest team in the NFL right now so this is a OJT for the future, some players will step up next year and shine, some will be passable some will get cut after next year, Tebow and any of the 2nd year players could fall into any of those categories, it is way too soon to be making concrete statement about our 2nd years at this point.

I hope that clarifies my stance..if not shoot me a pm and we can discuss

MOtorboat
12-31-2011, 11:51 PM
I don't understand what you are trying to say? Was this in response to my post?

It's a ball control offense. If you have 2nd and 5 and you end up with 3rd and 1, then play call is a completely moot criticism.

If you can't convert on 3rd and 1 in the running game, that's not the fault of the offensive coordinator. Convert on 3rd and 1 and the punt return probably doesn't happen.

It came down to execution last Sunday, not play calling. That's the bottom line and I'm sick of listening to the play calling excuse.

Mike
01-01-2012, 12:05 AM
It's a ball control offense. If you have 2nd and 5 and you end up with 3rd and 1, then play call is a completely moot criticism.

If you can't convert on 3rd and 1 in the running game, that's not the fault of the offensive coordinator. Convert on 3rd and 1 and the punt return probably doesn't happen.

It came down to execution last Sunday, not play calling. That's the bottom line and I'm sick of listening to the play calling excuse.

Completely disagree, MO. Playcalling is the problem. I am not even sold that Tebow is the answer, so don't get me wrong. I understand the team has certain constraints with him. I get just as frustrated when Tebow doesn't execute and doesn't see wide open receivers. That said, our OC is consistently calling poor calls for the downage situations once the defense adjusts after the first drive and is completely predictable.

3rd and 1 with a toss out to Johnson verses a 3rd and 1 QB keeper. With our run blocking you seriously want to do a toss outside run? But we know what our "OC" would do. Any damn time they are in 3rd and 1 they need to do a QB keeper from under center. Tebow is big enough to drive it forward every time. Denver should never fail to convert 3rd and 1 with Tebow.

bcbronc
01-01-2012, 12:45 AM
Completely disagree, MO. Playcalling is the problem. I am not even sold that Tebow is the answer, so don't get me wrong. I understand the team has certain constraints with him. I get just as frustrated when Tebow doesn't execute and doesn't see wide open receivers. That said, our OC is consistently calling poor calls for the downage situations once the defense adjusts after the first drive and is completely predictable.

3rd and 1 with a toss out to Johnson verses a 3rd and 1 QB keeper. With our run blocking you seriously want to do a toss outside run? But we know what our "OC" would do. Any damn time they are in 3rd and 1 they need to do a QB keeper from under center. Tebow is big enough to drive it forward every time. Denver should never fail to convert 3rd and 1 with Tebow.

This I agree with completely. It's not so much they called run, but which run they called I do have issue with. Even when they do call Tebow's number, they do it from shotgun and get him 4-5 yards further from a 1st down. I can't fault McCoy for calling a conservative game, but he can be conservative and still call better plays.

MOtorboat
01-01-2012, 01:14 AM
Completely disagree, MO. Playcalling is the problem. I am not even sold that Tebow is the answer, so don't get me wrong. I understand the team has certain constraints with him. I get just as frustrated when Tebow doesn't execute and doesn't see wide open receivers. That said, our OC is consistently calling poor calls for the downage situations once the defense adjusts after the first drive and is completely predictable.

3rd and 1 with a toss out to Johnson verses a 3rd and 1 QB keeper. With our run blocking you seriously want to do a toss outside run? But we know what our "OC" would do. Any damn time they are in 3rd and 1 they need to do a QB keeper from under center. Tebow is big enough to drive it forward every time. Denver should never fail to convert 3rd and 1 with Tebow.

If you, as an offensive coordinator, make it to 3rd and 1 rushing the football and the players on your team can't get one more yard, regardless of play call, you are not at fault.

NameUsedBefore
01-01-2012, 01:43 AM
Okay, everyone has been saying this, and I went with the assumption that someone actually checked. I decided to take a look anyway, seeing I'm a bit skeptical in general, and guess what? It's all a big lie! Conspiracy!!

From what I can tell looking at the play by play on NFL.com ( http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2011122400/2011/REG16/broncos@bills#menu=drivechart&tab=analyze&analyze=playbyplay ) there were only two series that were all runs, and both included coming up short on 3rd and 1. I dunno, but when you get 9 yards on runs on 1st and 2nd down, it's not terrible play calling to try to convert 3rd and 1 on the ground.


:25 1st quarter
1/10: 1yd run
2/9: 1 yd run
3/8: 5 yd PASS
punt

10:34 2nd quarter
1/10: 1yd run
2/9: 1yd run
3/8: incomplete PASS (should have been a TD to Decker, but badly underthrown)
punt

6:06 2nd Q
1/10: 6yd run
2/4: 3 yd run
3/1: 0 yd run
punt returned for TD

4:05 2nd Q
1/10 from DEN 7: 5 yd run
2/5: 4yd run
3/1: 0 yd run
punt



so 12 running plays, 4 passing attempts. Not exactly "balanced" okay, but there is some context: as mentioned, two of the drives we got to 3rd and 1 but couldn't convert (and one of those drives started inside our 10). Some might say we need to pass more on 1st down, and that's a valid criticism, but it ignores what happens when Tebow starts throwing more (ie turnovers).


So there was some exaggeration, but one is totally ignoring the context.

Again.

Denver's lead was dissolving. Everyone could see Buffalo going up and down the field with ease and it was only a matter of time before those field goals went into touchdowns. You list two drives in which Denver ran for <1 yard on first down, and then ran again on 2nd down for nothing. And then passed on 3rd and long. We have been winning in spite of this.

Again.

And then we have drives where we are still trying to jam the ball into Buffalo's defense, which, at this point, was 100% keying off on the run. Oh it's the players fault they couldn't convert 3rd and 1? Sure about that? Because it's hard to convert it on dive plays into Buffalo's center, or goddamn toss plays, when Buffalo is stacking like it's the goalline.

And then you state that we saw what happened when Tebow went pass-heavy? Okay cool, let's use this sole example where passing into the thriving Buffalo defense tells us Tebow can't pass. As opposed to the times we let him off the leash in Minnesota or against Chicago. Makes perfect sense. Let's do the same for Brady and Vick oh, oh I see. That's dumb. I see now. Okay.

Elevation inc
01-01-2012, 07:02 AM
They have to work around his deficincies. I know that's a hard thing to understand, but it is what it is and was clearly highlighted against Buffalo. Any complaint of conservative play calling is pretty much bunk after they let the reins off last week.

how is dive play after dive play after dive play on 1st and second down letting the reigns off???? the reigns didnt come off untill after the bills went up 26-14 and we had no choice then all hell broke lose with those 2 turnovers...no doubt that part was tebows fault but lets be real here, just like the new england game we had all cylinders firing, and then we went run the dive play for a yd left, run the dive play for yd right, oh wait now make tebow complete 3rd and eight, oh look at that defense knew what was coming, all wr's cant get open and our OL cant pass block..... wash, rinse and repeat, and you have a big reason why both the bills games and new england game went from hey we have a lead to oh crap now we have to throw the ball.....when fans are calling the offense from the couch before the next play, you bet your ass the defense knwos exactly what its doing.

thats also eveidenced by teams saying we sell out to stop the run, force tebow to stay in the pocket, and then on deep third downs bring 4 man pressure and it works everytime....1 becasue our OL sucks at pass blocking and 2, our Wr's have trouble seperating to the sticks....combine that with tebow forcing these long third downs to make something happen and now you have the turnovers..


its really easy to see all facets of our offense are struggling....tebow is confused by what the defenses are doing now, the OC is suckass, the OL cant run block for crap inside, the whole OL cant pass block as we are giving up over 12 pressures, 4 qb hits and 4 qb sacks a game over the last 3, and thats with teams rushing 4 players majority of the time only....lol, we also have a less than 100% 30 year old starting rb, a journey man in ball and a back in jeremiah thats not utilized enough because we belive to run the ball lately you have to just dive play inside every time....and finally we have TE's that were suppose to be good blockers, being very bad at that, and then you have a OC that doesnty use them in the passig game enough.

We also have a group of recivers that cant seperate from man coverage or jams at the line just about 90% of the time.....royal is done in denver as a wideout, between his drops, lack of focus, and piss poor ability at the line to seperate its time to move on, decker can only get open on double moves deeper down field if no safety help is done correctly. On normal plays he gets beat at the line alot. DT is the same way, however DT is getting better now and the results are constant improvement and better production. We have scrub Rb's outside of mcghaee who is not 100%, Scrub Wr's, a unorthodx QB, a crappy OC who somehow forgot to playcall(mccoy was a beast under studesvilel when teebs was under center last year), a very crappy OL......and this people is why after our gimmicks and scheme confusion defenses finally figured out how to punch us in the mouth and thats why you see what you see lately....we just dont have the tools, talent or coaching to adjust enough on offense....


in the off-season we need a New LG, and New Center, 2 New Rb's and 2 new WR's, and then we have to pray Franklin keeps improving at a position hes not best suited for, clady returns to form, Kuper rembers how to play consistently, and our kids a TE learn to get er done. Add a OC to that and we may be capable fo winning a playoff game because were that good......

bcbronc
01-01-2012, 03:24 PM
So there was some exaggeration, but one is totally ignoring the context.

Again.

I'm ignoring the context? um, okay.

I thought the context was we're a young team with a QB working on his consistency, with a conservative HC, an offense that leads the league in rushing and playing a defense that is opportunistic against the pass. Seems like the perfect context to try and establish the run game early, no? And last I looked, the first five or six drives of the game was considered "early".

So what's the context you're looking at again?


Denver's lead was dissolving. Everyone could see Buffalo going up and down the field with ease and it was only a matter of time before those field goals went into touchdowns. You list two drives in which Denver ran for <1 yard on first down, and then ran again on 2nd down for nothing. And then passed on 3rd and long. We have been winning in spite of this.

Again.

Ya, those two drives were our second and third of the game, and followed a drive where we ran the ball down the field and scored a TD. The next two drives, we got 5+ yards on 1st down. Ya, that's crappy.

No coach worth a damn is going to give up on his bread and butter after the second and third drive of the game. Would you expect Shannahan to give up on the run game after three drives in a one score game? We're a run first team, how many times have you heard coaches or commentators talk about being "committed to the run". That means not going away from it on the fourth drive of the game.


And then we have drives where we are still trying to jam the ball into Buffalo's defense, which, at this point, was 100% keying off on the run. Oh it's the players fault they couldn't convert 3rd and 1? Sure about that? Because it's hard to convert it on dive plays into Buffalo's center, or goddamn toss plays, when Buffalo is stacking like it's the goalline.

So it's not the players' fault? At all? I didn't like the specific run plays called, but come on, two 3rd and 1's, we come up short on both, and you say it has nothing to do with execution?


And then you state that we saw what happened when Tebow went pass-heavy? Okay cool, let's use this sole example where passing into the thriving Buffalo defense tells us Tebow can't pass. As opposed to the times we let him off the leash in Minnesota or against Chicago. Makes perfect sense. Let's do the same for Brady and Vick oh, oh I see. That's dumb. I see now. Okay.

ya, context, remember that? In case you forgot, we were playing "the thriving Buffalo defense", you know the one that handled Brady and Vick? It's pretty silly that your argument is basically Buffalo's defense picked Brady four times, so we shouldn't expect more from Tebow, but we should have passed more early. Why would you want Tebow to come out and throw the ball early against that defense?

As I said earlier, this was a game McCoy absolutely HAD to protect Tebow with his early play calling. That's the context of this particular matchup, something you seem to be having troubles grasping NUB. I guess when you have an agenda, no point letting facts interfere.

Joel
01-02-2012, 02:12 AM
Sorry, but that article seems rather implausible after todays game. Put it this way: The idea McCoy doesn't want to risk Tebow playing afraid of turnovers is no more credible than the idea he thinks Tebow is learning to make checkdown throws and get through progressions. If McCoy really believes each of those things we DO need a new OC, because the current one is oblivious to what happens on the field.

To me it seems that the the timid tentative offensive playcalling we've seen all year has finally spread to the QB as well, and this is the result.

NameUsedBefore
01-02-2012, 02:36 AM
I'm ignoring the context? um, okay.

I thought the context was we're a young team with a QB working on his consistency, with a conservative HC, an offense that leads the league in rushing and playing a defense that is opportunistic against the pass. Seems like the perfect context to try and establish the run game early, no? And last I looked, the first five or six drives of the game was considered "early".

So what's the context you're looking at again?

Context of the game at hand: Buffalo keying off on the run; Denver plodding around with predictable playcalling while Buffalo offense slowly starts adding points. That context.



Ya, those two drives were our second and third of the game, and followed a drive where we ran the ball down the field and scored a TD. The next two drives, we got 5+ yards on 1st down. Ya, that's crappy.

No coach worth a damn is going to give up on his bread and butter after the second and third drive of the game. Would you expect Shannahan to give up on the run game after three drives in a one score game? We're a run first team, how many times have you heard coaches or commentators talk about being "committed to the run". That means not going away from it on the fourth drive of the game.

Shanahan would run a playaction bootleg on 4th and 1 because he's not a predictable p***y. That's what Shanahan would do. Thanks for bringing him up, though, and showing how incredibly mundane McCoy's playcalling is.



So it's not the players' fault? At all? I didn't like the specific run plays called, but come on, two 3rd and 1's, we come up short on both, and you say it has nothing to do with execution?

There is fault to go around as it is a team game. I believe the offensive coordinator consistently makes the wrong calls and puts the offense in the worst situations. I say this because I'm calling the plays before they even happen. And I'm watching teams stack the line and stuff our shit and then spread out on 3rd and long and prevent our route-running phenoms at receiver from getting open.

I watched the Chiefs today do a very, very simple playaction on 3rd and 1. Denver bought it 100% and Orton hit a fullback five-ten yards past the 1st down. McCoy is utterly unable to draw up plays like this. No fakes when the running is going hard; no bootlegs; apparently few screens these days.

The running-game is so strong right now in Denver, and the receivers so weak, that Denver needs to be limiting its field. Shanahan recognized these traits in the Denver offense about five years ago and managed some good production out of orchestrating such an offense; utilizing one-trick receivers like Lelie and average tight ends and fullbacks. Short route, intermediate/long route, duck and run. Simple options on a simple play. And if you're running for 5+ yards a clip, it's very hard to stop.

McCoy's version of this is to have Tebow duck his head forward and then stand in the pocket while the receivers run cuts and stops with defensive jerseys glued to their backs.

I get mad just thinking about it.



ya, context, remember that? In case you forgot, we were playing "the thriving Buffalo defense", you know the one that handled Brady and Vick? It's pretty silly that your argument is basically Buffalo's defense picked Brady four times, so we shouldn't expect more from Tebow, but we should have passed more early. Why would you want Tebow to come out and throw the ball early against that defense?

Because it's better to have a balanced offense early than to have a biased one late.

Very clearly stated. Brady, at the time, went in with a pass-heavy offense. He got chewed right up. I'm using players like Brady and Vick to illustrate that if all you can do is pass to win against Buffalo you will probably lose. Thus, dinking around for half the game until, Oh shit we need Tebow time!!, is absolutely ridiculous. Should we expect more from Tebow? Totally. Does that justify bad gameplans? Nope.



As I said earlier, this was a game McCoy absolutely HAD to protect Tebow with his early play calling. That's the context of this particular matchup, something you seem to be having troubles grasping NUB. I guess when you have an agenda, no point letting facts interfere.

I have no agenda. I just understand football. Tebow has his passing issues, but the offensive playcalling is the #1 issue with the offense, by far, and has been since Josh McDaniels first got here. I don't know what it is, but the offense is beyond predictable. And McDaniels is out ruining Sam Bradford right up, and the McDaniels-lite has come off on McCoy and we're seeing the same effect here. Neither one of these guys should be coordinators next year.

Sinthor
01-02-2012, 01:02 PM
A fumble and an INT against Chicago = 2
A fumble against NE = 1
A fumble and 3 INT against Buffalo = 4

That's 7 junior.

:coffee:

yeah....original post was saying 7 in 2 games.

That's two games....grandpa. :)

Still is too much in 3 though and thanks for the lesson in simply math, glad to see you still recall all that.

On a serious note, I keep watching games with these other "passing offenses" and things just don't look right. Now don't get me wrong, Tebow seriously needs to improve, I'm not excusing him. But this team seriously needs playmakers on offense, particularly at WR or TE or even the RB's. I don't know how many times I see these other QB's drop back even in 3 step drops and then throw the ball to guys who don't have an opposing player within 5 yards of them. These guys can catch the ball and run for 5 or more before someone comes to tackle them. Sure there's also throws into guys that only have a step or two but there are still lots of guys just sitting wide open. I haven't seen that in the Bronco games this year more than a few times total.

I think we miss guys like Lloyd and Gaffney more that most realize. I've watched these games a lot and it really does appear that a large portion of the time, Denver's receivers don't get open unless the ball is held way too long. You can't do that against good defenses that have an effective front 4/7.

Ravage!!!
01-02-2012, 01:19 PM
I think we miss guys like Lloyd and Gaffney more that most realize. I've watched these games a lot and it really does appear that a large portion of the time, Denver's receivers don't get open unless the ball is held way too long. You can't do that against good defenses that have an effective front 4/7.

I think Tim needs a WIDE OPEN guy before he feels he can throw the ball and get it in there. That means a lot of windows are there, but not thrown to...thus making him hold onto the ball longer, and forcing the WRs to constantly try and find larger windows.

jhildebrand
01-02-2012, 01:29 PM
I think Tim needs a WIDE OPEN guy before he feels he can throw the ball and get it in there. That means a lot of windows are there, but not thrown to...thus making him hold onto the ball longer, and forcing the WRs to constantly try and find larger windows.

This is my biggest concern about Tebow! He is a sight thrower and hasn't shown any progression or willingness to TRUST his WR's and try to be a rhythm/route thrower and the NFL requires that! I try to keep in mind he has only played 14 games but the lack of any kind of evidence that he will even TRY is concerning at least for me.

TT15Superman
01-02-2012, 04:41 PM
This is my biggest concern about Tebow! He is a sight thrower and hasn't shown any progression or willingness to TRUST his WR's and try to be a rhythm/route thrower and the NFL requires that! I try to keep in mind he has only played 14 games but the lack of any kind of evidence that he will even TRY is concerning at least for me.To be fair, early in the NE game, there were a handful of timing throws (curls, slants, etc.). These seem to be nonexistent the last two games.

To be fair, maybe they aren't called because of the defensive schemes.

I think that we would be better served yesterday and this coming Sunday having Tebow throw often and early to (1) get him into rhythm/timing, and (2) to get his confidence up.

I can understand a QB who is hesitant to make a throw(s) after having give up 3 INTs the game prior...and feeling "unsure". Would a pitcher feel any better coming to the mound without warm-ups? (yeah, QBs "warm up" before the game and half, but in games there are moving receivers unlike baseball. They need to develop some rhythm/timing.)

I think for Pittsburgh, our Offense needs to throw often and early, and use quick throws. For all the people who say Tim was not throwing it/hesitant, I agree, but in reality, we don't know where his eyes were. He was knocked for locking onto Decker against Buffalo, so maybe he looked away and when he came back, the window was no longer open. We just don't know. But regardless, I agree, he must improve (Sun and in the offseason) if he wants to continue being a QB (here or anywhere else).

The Glue Factory
01-02-2012, 05:10 PM
This is my biggest concern about Tebow! He is a sight thrower and hasn't shown any progression or willingness to TRUST his WR's and try to be a rhythm/route thrower and the NFL requires that! I try to keep in mind he has only played 14 games but the lack of any kind of evidence that he will even TRY is concerning at least for me.

I am praying that this is one thing that the Duke works on him with. I like the intangibles he brings, but the skills have a great deal of improvement before he will do much more than he already has.

Joel
01-02-2012, 05:49 PM
It really is a team game, guys; Tebow needs to trust his receivers more rather than waiting for wide open targets--but his receivers need to EARN rather than UNDERMINE that trust, and the latter has been more the rule this season. Likewise, Tebow needs time in the pocket to see and reach them. The whole team needs massive improvement, and that definitely includes Tebow, who looked REALLY bad against KC, but there have been even more games where Tebow looked good passing and it didn't matter because he lacked protection and/or receivers who got open and caught balls.

Until/unless our receivers can consistently run good timing routes, find seams, create separation and GET OPEN, neither Tebow nor any young QB will ever develop any trust in them, because they won't deserve it. If we want our QB to learn how to find those brief narrow windows, we'll have to give him receivers who routinely create them, and linemen who don't force him to find them with a DTs hand in his face. Tebow, along with the whole team, needs work, but he's the only one people are screaming to replace after one or two bad games. Geez, if we held Demaryius Thomas to the standard most people apply to Tebow we'd have cut him LAST year.

Our very young team naturally needs large improvements at all positions; the guys who show that improvement will stick around, and the guys who don't won't. That goes for Tebow and everyone else.

Broncos Mtnman
01-02-2012, 07:12 PM
I think Tim needs a WIDE OPEN guy before he feels he can throw the ball and get it in there. That means a lot of windows are there, but not thrown to...thus making him hold onto the ball longer, and forcing the WRs to constantly try and find larger windows.

Mike Klis said the same thing on NFL Network today.

:coffee:

bcbronc
01-02-2012, 11:40 PM
I think that we would be better served yesterday and this coming Sunday having Tebow throw often and early to (1) get him into rhythm/timing, and (2) to get his confidence up.

I think for Pittsburgh, our Offense needs to throw often and early, and use quick throws.

I don't think that's a very good idea at all, to be honest.

jhildebrand
01-03-2012, 12:13 AM
Had Decker WIDE, can't stress WIDE enough, on the flea flicker TWICE, and pulled it back because he was unsure. It didn't help that it was middle of the field.

This kid is rattled and confidence shaken. But that doesn't explain not taking some opportunities to give the WR's a chance-you have to in this league.

He has taken some small steps with DT but I think it is because of the height.

Joel
01-03-2012, 12:23 AM
I don't think that's a very good idea at all, to be honest.
You may well be right, but we may well have no choice. Trying to run on the Steelers is nightmarish, as we and many others have learned to our cost, and if we again fall into the trap of only passing when it's third and long and/or we trail by a lot, it will once again get very ugly. If Dick LeBeau knows your play before you call it, you are well and truly screwed.

bcbronc
01-03-2012, 12:32 AM
You may well be right, but we may well have no choice. Trying to run on the Steelers is nightmarish, as we and many others have learned to our cost, and if we again fall into the trap of only passing when it's third and long and/or we trail by a lot, it will once again get very ugly. If Dick LeBeau knows your play before you call it, you are well and truly screwed.

#1 pass defense in the league, "only" #8 rush defense, going by yards per attempt.

We're near the top for rushing offense, near the bottom for passing so our strength matches their weakness. :lol:

Tebow's going to have no idea who's in coverage, who's blitzing. Either will our young OL. Passing early and often only means the game will be over by half time.

Have to play safe, hope we can bust a few big runs or get lucky over the top, and that our defense can hold serve.

KCL
01-03-2012, 12:39 AM
#1 pass defense in the league, "only" #8 rush defense, going by yards per attempt.

We're near the top for rushing offense, near the bottom for passing so our strength matches their weakness. :lol:

Tebow's going to have no idea who's in coverage, who's blitzing. Either will our young OL. Passing early and often only means the game will be over by half time.

Have to play safe, hope we can bust a few big runs or get lucky over the top, and that our defense can hold serve.

Well they better play better than they did vs KC..I have no idea where KC ranks in pass or run defense...Fox better have a game plan and try to attack their weaknesses.

Joel
01-03-2012, 01:33 AM
#1 pass defense in the league, "only" #8 rush defense, going by yards per attempt.

We're near the top for rushing offense, near the bottom for passing so our strength matches their weakness. :lol:

Tebow's going to have no idea who's in coverage, who's blitzing. Either will our young OL. Passing early and often only means the game will be over by half time.

Have to play safe, hope we can bust a few big runs or get lucky over the top, and that our defense can hold serve.
That's Foxball, and what I fully expect we'll do; not only does he love playing safe (even though our only hope against a MUCH better team is to take CALCULATED risks,) but our QB is utterly shell shocked going into his first playoff game. If we play this by the numbers though, we get beat; it's just that simple, and there's nothing "safe" about that.

We have to play a game more like the 1-15 Cowboys did against the 10-6 Redskins, starting the second half with an onside kick and ending up with their only win of the year. We might still lose; in fact, it's probable, but smart risks a the right time are the only chance we've got. The Steelers are much better at Foxs game, which I only recall getting us one win (Cincinatti) all year. In each of the other 15 games we:

1) came from behind to win when Tebow threw a late scoring pass,
2) came from behind to win when Tebow had a late scoring run or
3) played Foxball and lost.

As you noted elsewhere, I'm less concerned about what we call than when we call it; Fox WILL call passes if desperate enough, but the level of desperation required makes them as predictable as his runs. I don't mind a bit if we run 50 times if Pitt's expecting a pass on 40 of them. If they're expecting 40 runs when we throw 50 passes, however, our line, receivers AND QB might fare significantly better. Playing "safe" we'll just end up trailing late (we have in every game but one all year,) probably by a lot, and trying those passes anyway: Why not try them when they aren't expected instead of waiting till Pitt knows they're coming?

Well they better play better than they did vs KC..I have no idea where KC ranks in pass or run defense...Fox better have a game plan and try to attack their weaknesses.
C'mon, now, the press has asked Fox about his game plan every week all year and I'm sure his answer is unchanged: As soon ad Dick LeBeau tells him what he can run, he'll know what play to call.

5:1 it's still a run, except on 3rd and 15 and/or down 20, when it'll always be a pass. I fear this will be horrific; fortunately we'll have Tebow to blame, but without him OR Orton I can only guess who gets blamed next year.

bcbronc
01-03-2012, 02:03 AM
1) came from behind to win when Tebow threw a late scoring pass,
2) came from behind to win when Tebow had a late scoring run or
3) played Foxball and lost.

But 1 and 2 are Foxball just like 3 is. Don't lose the game on an early mistake. It's easy to criticize Fox for his conservative playcalling, or speculating what-ifs when his style takes him to within a fieldgoal of a world championship, but simple fact is Fox has never had a top level QB. Nothing against Delhormme, but he was never more than mid-2nd tier...not bad but certainly not great either.

The first four games of the season, with Orton as QB, we attempted 46, 25, 39, and 32 passes. So it's not like Fox came in wanting to run this primitive offense. Fox is a good coach, and good coaches fit their gameplan to their players' ability. Until he gets a top end quarterback, it's impossible to know what he'll do with a top end quarterback. Winning divisions and conference championships with QBs like Tebow and Delhormme isn't as easy as people are making it out to be.


Playing "safe" we'll just end up trailing late (we have in every game but one all year,) probably by a lot, and trying those passes anyway: Why not try them when they aren't expected instead of waiting till Pitt knows they're coming?

No chance we win a shoot-out type game vs Pit. Just zero chance. Our DBs suck, Pit has a quick strike passing attack, and their defense isn't going to let us get more than a handful of big plays against them.

If right now a football genie offered me a 6 point deficit with 3:47 seconds and 1 TO remaining, I take it in a heartbeat. We're not going to win by outscoring Pittsburgh. The only way we win is playing a field position game on offense and getting a score from either defense or special teams. If we try to throw early and often, the game will be over before half. Champ at least deserves this game to mean something in the fourth quarter.


C'mon, now, the press has asked Fox about his game plan every week all year and I'm sure his answer is unchanged: As soon ad Dick LeBeau tells him what he can run, he'll know what play to call.

That's the beauty of american football, the chess match between the coordinators. No other sport has it to the same degree.