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View Full Version : Why Denver Will NOT Make A Big Splash In FA!



Cugel
02-15-2009, 09:55 AM
The other FA thread was getting so far off track I thought I'd post this to bring this discussion back on point.

Simply put, Denver's problems are too big and fundamental to be solved by FA acquisitions. It's going to take at least 2 or 3 years, and the primary focus is going to come via the draft. Because FAs are simply too expensive to base your team around and draft picks need a couple of seasons to learn to play in the NFL. You don't win championships with rookies.

Julius Peppers wants a big raise from his $13 million in 2008 and Albert Haynesworth wants to be the "highest paid player in football." Do you REALLY think Denver will make a serious play for either one? :coffee:

FA cost MUCH more than rookie draft picks, even 1st rounders. Even mid-level FAs cost a LOT! Ekuban and Engleberger cost much more than Jarvis Moss whose contract is that given to the #17 pick of the draft! (Moss's cap figure for 2009 is $660,000 while Engleberger's is $1.25 million! (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/clubhouse_contracts.aspx?sport=NFL&majteam=DEN))

The Broncos need about SEVEN new starters in the front seven! They need:

2 NT (one veteran starter and one to groom via the draft).
2 DE who can start in a 3-4 (maybe Crowder or Marcus Thomas can play at one of these positions, but probably not well).
A couple of 3-4 LBs in case Dumervil, Moss & Denver's current crop of LB scrubs (Spencer Larsen, Jamie Winborn, etc.) can't do it.

To get all that via FA would cost a MINT, even if it could be done at all.


I for one don't think it's going to be an exciting offseason as far as free agency goes, and that's a good thing.

1)Bowlen's spending an awful lot of money on coaches, and even though it isn't correlated to the salary cap, the money still has to be budgeted from somewhere.

[/B]2)Denver spent $20 mill on players last year, who weren't even with the team (dead money). That is absolutely horrendous decision making by the personnel department the last few years. Absolutely terrible. I hope Bowlen straps the organization right now, and forces them to build the right way. Through the draft.
[B]
3)Free agency = overpaying. Even for mid level guys. It's an excuse for the scout and development teams to not have to make their job a priority in terms of the draft.

4)The Patriots have arguably been the best team in the NFL this decade at scouting, drafting, and developing. Not only do they continue to pump out great player after great player from the draft, but they go and turn some of those great players into first day draft picks while managing the cap. Absolutely brilliant work. Hopefully McDaniels was an instrument in that, and carries some of the success here.

This is all true! And it's worth repeating.

The Right Way To Do Things: Teams like the Patriots DO hire expensive FAs, but ONLY a few, and ONLY to add to an already solid team like raisins in cereal. A few raisins are nice but it can't be mostly all raisins! (For one thing raisins cost more than oats, so that cereal would be too expensive to compete)! :laugh:

The Pats added a few guys like Rodney Harrison, Randy Moss & Adelius Thomas, but the core of their team was DRAFTED. They make excellent use of the draft and find good role players who back-up their starters.

They identify a FEW key players on offense and defense they intend to keep and pay whatever it takes to do it. Guys like Richard Seymour, Adelius Thomas, C Dan Koppen, LT Matt Light, and of course, Tom Brady.

But every time they played in a SB everybody on the team thought "I deserve a raise!" And you can't GIVE everybody a raise or the salary cap will explode! So they let a continual stream of players go via FA.

Ex: Asante Samuel. Instead of giving him a 6 year $56 million contract with something like $25 million guaranteed, they let him go.

Shananan's Way of Doing Things: When Shanahan first came to Denver FA wasn't such a big deal. It was new and teams weren't used to bidding on FAs. Shanahan assembled the makings of a championship team in a few years by getting several pro=bowl quality players via FA, and he didn't over pay for them either. He inherited a few stars like John Elway, but many were FA.

EX: Gary Zimmerman, a Hall of Fame LT. That simply wouldn't happen today. Teams lock up their LT in long-term contracts. You NEVER see a pro-bowl LT with several good years left BECOME a FA.

Then there was DE Neil Smith, who came over from the Chiefs. For nothing! Comparable to Jared Allen (who at least brought the Chiefs a 1st round & other draft picks). Rod Smith, Eddie McCaffrey & Hall of Famer Shannon Sharpe.

One lucky 6th round draft pick got him Terrell Davis and the team was complete. It simply wasn't built through the draft.

He won 2 SBs and teams started copying his tactics. FAs quickly became hugely expensive and teams started making certain that their core players didn't BECOME FA to begin with.

The Salary Cap made it ever more important to build your team by consistent drafting, not FA. But Shanahan never adapted. After all he was a smarter, better coach than anybody else (in his own mind). He'd been successful, so why change?

His drafting was worse than erratic for years. They had yes-man Ted Sundquist as GM and Shanahan made all his own decisions: Marcus Nash, Deltha O'Neil, Paul Toviesi, Willie Middlebrooks, George Foster, Tatum Bell, Ashley Lelie, Terry Pierce, and Darius Watts. All first or second round picks who were little or no use to Denver.

With the departure of Sundquist and promotion of Jim Goodman, who was a good talent scout, things became better. But, by 2008 there was a terrible shortage of defensive talent.

Shanahan's attempts to avoid spending high draft-picks on DL and his grabbing every FA DL around, none of whom really worked out, had collapsed: Courtney Brown, Gerard Warren, Ekuban, Engleberger, and Mike Myers, plus a TON of ever more useless players: Sam Adams, Antwon Burton, Amon Gordon, Jimmy Kennedy, Simeon Rice, etc.

And with it the defense collapsed. Totally. Denver is now faced with the mammoth task of totally rebuilding their defense from scratch. And it's going to be ugly. And they aren't going to be able to do it for probably several years.

With the retirements/trading of Al Wilson & John Lynch, the last decent players on the front seven were gone. There are exactly THREE defensive players who would start for any other NFL team: Champ Bailey, and DJ Williams and Dre Bly.
You can't fix that by giving Julius Peppers or Albert Haynesworth a $40 million guaranteed contract or something. It's just NOT going to happen.

And any fan who thinks Denver is going to make a serious play for Haynesworth & Peppers is simply going to be disappointed. I'd be happy to see the Broncos get SOMEBODY decent to play NT in the 3-4 and maybe a DE or LB, plus a safety. That would be great, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Denver make no significant FA moves, have a HORRIBLE defense this year and solidify their positions through the draft.

2009 is not going to be a fun year for Broncos fans. :tsk: If Denver manages to win 8 games it will be a HUGE testament to McDaniels coaching skills.

broncosinindy
02-15-2009, 10:07 AM
This offense was built through the draft.

The defense not so much.

I am all for Buidling through the draft and good cap management, but we just fired our Head Scout. IT WILL have a impact how much i am not sure at this point. IMHO we really need to fix our Scouting staff if that is the way pat wants to do it.

elsid13
02-15-2009, 10:07 AM
I strongly disagree with your basic underlying premise that going to take 2 to 4 years to turn the team around. This team was 8-8 and had chance to make the playoff even with the bad defense play. We just need the defense to improve to "ok" to be serious playoff team and have shot to make the Superbowl. It never has good or bad as people make the situtation out to be on the football message boards.

broncosinindy
02-15-2009, 10:16 AM
I strongly disagree with your basic underlying premise that going to take 2 to 4 years to turn the team around. This team was 8-8 and had chance to make the playoff even with the bad defense play. We just need the defense to improve to "ok" to be serious playoff team and have shot to make the Superbowl. It never has good or bad as people make the situtation out to be on the football message boards.

Indianapolis has/d a great offense with a mediocre D and only won the bowl once. i personally would love a great D and a strong running game. o the days of old how we miss TD

elsid13
02-15-2009, 10:25 AM
Indianapolis has/d a great offense with a mediocre D and only won the bowl once. i personally would love a great D and a strong running game. o the days of old how we miss TD

Denver needs to do two things for the upcoming season to get back in contention. First stop the run, Denver no matter what defense they run (4/3, 3/4 or hybrid) needs a big body NT to plug the middle and allow the LB to flow to the ball carrier. Both Robinson and Thomas are UT in the league not NT. It lot easier to play pass defense when you put the other team in long yardage situations. Second they need to be more constant in running the ball. Denver had good yard per carry and total run yardage, but to many times those metrics were influenced by run out of the shot gun. Denver needs to get stronger in have ground game that grind out 3.5 to 4.5 yard run on regular basis.

elsid13
02-15-2009, 10:31 AM
BTW on orinigal post the PATS have a lot of FA on the roster.

Requiem / The Dagda
02-15-2009, 10:43 AM
This is rather what you'd like to see happen, instead of Denver um. . . not getting a big name?

SmilinAssasSin27
02-15-2009, 10:55 AM
Our schedule is brutal in 2009, but it should also toughen us up. We play the AFCN and the NFCE. There are some strong teams in those 2 divisions. Plus we'll play the 2nd place teams from the AFCE and AFCS. 09 will go a long way in preparing this team and teaching em how real football is played for 2010.

broncosinindy
02-15-2009, 10:58 AM
Denver needs to do two things for the upcoming season to get back in contention. First stop the run, Denver no matter what defense they run (4/3, 3/4 or hybrid) needs a big body NT to plug the middle and allow the LB to flow to the ball carrier. Both Robinson and Thomas are UT in the league not NT. It lot easier to play pass defense when you put the other team in long yardage situations. Second they need to be more constant in running the ball. Denver had good yard per carry and total run yardage, but to many times those metrics were influenced by run out of the shot gun. Denver needs to get stronger in have ground game that grind out 3.5 to 4.5 yard run on regular basis.

I think both Robertson and Thomas are Tweeners. They are supposed to be UT built in NT bodies. just doesnt always work out that way

Aggreed we seen alot of yardage when teams were thinking pass. one of the main reasons we had any success at the end of the year. not because TB was any good.

elsid13
02-15-2009, 10:58 AM
Our schedule is brutal in 2009, but it should also toughen us up. We play the AFCN and the NFCE. There are some strong teams in those 2 divisions. Plus we'll play the 2nd place teams from the AFCE and AFCS. 09 will go a long way in preparing this team and teaching em how real football is played for 2010.

The schedule looks brutal, there is no guarantee that it is. To many outside things influence how a good a team is year in and year out.

elsid13
02-15-2009, 11:00 AM
I think both Robertson and Thomas are Tweeners. They are supposed to be UT built in NT bodies. just doesnt always work out that way
Aggreed we seen alot of yardage when teams were thinking pass. one of the main reasons we had any success at the end of the year. not because TB was any good.

Which is how I see Raji out of BC. I think he more Robinson type player then NT that hold the line.

broncosinindy
02-15-2009, 11:05 AM
Which is how I see Raji out of BC. I think he more Robinson type player then NT that hold the line.

Dont forget Gerrard Warren :D

warcrychief
02-15-2009, 11:14 AM
The schedule looks brutal, there is no guarantee that it is. To many outside things influence how a good a team is year in and year out.

I wish i had the beer goggles you are looking through. The whole AFCE just chewed us up and spat us out. The NFCE has better teams by far. And the AFCN only has the two teams that played in the AFC Championship.

SmilinAssasSin27
02-15-2009, 11:17 AM
The schedule looks brutal, there is no guarantee that it is. To many outside things influence how a good a team is year in and year out.

Outside of injuries, I think we're about to play a handful of the most dominant and consistent defenses in the NFL. Pitt, Bmore, NYG, Wash, Philly and I believe we get NE, right? Add SD w/ a healthy Merriman twice and our schedule will be BRUTAL. Heck, even Cincy has finally seemed to have found a D (notsaying the TEAM is that great). Doesn't mean we can't win games, just that every win will be earned.

broncobryce
02-15-2009, 11:42 AM
Who's Robinson? Do you mean Robertson?

elsid13
02-15-2009, 12:29 PM
Who's Robinson? Do you mean Robertson?

Yes, not enough coffee this morning.

Ziggy
02-15-2009, 01:34 PM
Zimmerman was not a free agent. The Broncos traded for him before Shanahan got here. Shanahan built back to back Super Bowl teams through the draft, free agency, andexisting players. Of the 25 starters on Denver's first Super Bowl Championship team, 14 were brought in by Shanahan. 10 of those were free agents.

Shanahan's drafting a FA choices in later years would be end up causing his demise, but he did build 2 championship teams primarily through free agency. How many head coaches in the history of the NFL have won back to back Super Bowls again? Does that mean that the Broncos should go out and break the bank this year? I don't think so, but I also think that they should be in the bidding for a few key players.

Just because a player is named Peppers or Haynseworth, doesn't make them a key player to the Broncos future plans. It's going to depend on what the current staff thinks of the players in place. I'm curious Cugel. How do you know we need, as you say, "almost seven new players in our front seven", when you don't even know what the defensive scheme is or how the coaches have evaluated the players that are currently in place?

Cugel
02-15-2009, 01:52 PM
I strongly disagree with your basic underlying premise that going to take 2 to 4 years to turn the team around. This team was 8-8 and had chance to make the playoff even with the bad defense play. We just need the defense to improve to "ok" to be serious playoff team and have shot to make the Superbowl. It never has good or bad as people make the situtation out to be on the football message boards.

I think 2-4 years to make the Broncos a serious elite team like the Patriots, Chargers, Steelers and Colts, as well as the Giants. I don't consider Arizona or the Eagles as elite teams right now, even though they've been to the SB and conference championships. (Giants had home field advantage in the NFC before they lost to the Eagles & Colts were the #3 seed).

To have a real good SB chance you have to become one of the elite teams, and then got to the playoffs 3-4 years in a row with a real SB chance. Then you hope to convert one or two of those chances into a SB win. The Patriots and Steelers have done that. The Colts have won one out of 5. The Eagles and Chargers have come up short. The Titans and Ravens are just getting started.

Maybe a team will prove me wrong, but right now, you have to bet that one of the five teams I mentioned will be favored to win the next SB. Possibly throw in Dallas and the Eagles as underdogs, maybe the Titans and Ravens now that they have a decent QB in Joe Flacco.

It takes a solid foundation of young players, plus a franchise QB. Then you have to get lucky to win the SB. Everybody coming together, avoiding key injuries, a few lucky bounces of the ball and you're in. Like the Broncos in the 90's. They really had 3 chances to win a SB, blew the first one when they were upset by the Jaguars and won 2. Then Elway retired and it was over.

And the one constant over the last decade has been the team with the better defense usually wins.

Take a look at the last 10 SB champions: Rams, Patriots, Ravens, Bucs, Patriots, Patriots, Steelers, Colts, Giants, Steelers. Only the Colts and Rams were better offensive than defensive teams. And both had sound if not spectacular defenses.

You have to have a pretty good defense to win the SB, in fact you have to have a lot of talent on defense even to GET to the SB. Look at the SB losing teams!

Titans, Giants, Rams, Raiders, Panthers, Eagles, Seahawks, Bears, Patriots, Cardinals. Some, like the Titans and Eagles were balanced. Only the Raiders and Cardinals had better significantly better offenses than defenses. So the SB losers were largely DEFENSIVE teams as well.

So the one common denominator of getting to the SB over the last decade has been a dominant defense!

Shanahan did about as well as a coach could do with the stiffs on Denver's roster over the last 4-5 years. He won a majority of the games with very little talent on defense.

But, Shanahan had a theory. Throw a bunch of FAs at the defense and see what sticks. Win 10 games through superior coaching, get hot in the playoffs, and then "anything can happen." It didn't work. Nothing much in fact DID happen. The ONE playoff win (against the Patriots) in 10 years came the year he actually had some decent play on the defense: Al Wilson's last good season, Trevor Pryce (before he became a FA and left to the Ravens), Courtney Brown (just before his knees gave out), Gerard Warren (putting on his salary drive).

I expect some solid progress next season on defense, at least by the end of the year, but there will be a painful adjusting period where the offense isn't really comfortable with McDaniels new schemes, the coaches are going through a learning process as is McDaniels himself, and everybody's getting adjusted to all the new changes.

The Defense will be totally blown up and rebuilt almost from scratch, but then it needs to be, so no loss.

That won't be easy. :coffee:

It's easy to say "they need a NT" but not so easy to find one!

A dominating NT will generally go in the top 10-12 picks in the draft. The one candidate this year BJ Raji will be a top 10 pick, possibly top 5.

Find a dominating NT in FA? Next to impossible. Maybe in a couple of years Vince Wilfork or somebody like him will hit FA and teams will fall all over themselves bidding to give him about $30+ million in guarantees. Denver will be LUCKY to find someone like that.

Most likely they'll have to make do with 2nd or 3rd class NTs. Guys who are let go from their teams for injury or salary dump reasons. In short, the same struggle to find decent starting DL in FA that Denver has had the last 3 seasons!

They've utterly failed so far, and it isn't like Shanahan didn't try! He tried virtually every FA DL around, and all of them failed.

But, even if they find a stud NT in the draft it will take a few years for him to learn to play in the NFL. It took Haloti Ngaga about 3 years to become the dominant NT we saw in the playoffs for instance. He was the 12th pick of the draft.

So, no! I don't think the Broncos are suddenly going to go from horrible defense to a real SB contender. I'd love to be wrong, but I just don't believe it. :coffee:

SmilinAssasSin27
02-15-2009, 02:00 PM
How can the Chuggers be elite, but Philly not be?

Northman
02-15-2009, 02:04 PM
I would almost agree that Denver wouldnt make a play for a bigtime player if Shanny was still here. That was his MO when it came to FA's. He would take more risks with players who "supposedly" possessed talent but had major character flaws only to have it blow up in his face.

Its a new regime now. Offensively, most of the parts are in place aside from maybe a #1 back. So half the battle is already won in that dept. Defensively there is some work to be done but Denver has some great options both draft wise and in the FA market to turn that puppy around 180 degrees. As long as the drafting continues to produce quality players and if Denver can sign a couple of stud FA's i think we can compete next year in the playoffs.

Trying to build this team further in the draft for 4 years down the road is just wasting too much time. I just dont see it happening. McDaniels was put into place to turn this team around now, not 4 years down the road.

Cugel
02-15-2009, 02:06 PM
Zimmerman was not a free agent. The Broncos traded for him before Shanahan got here. Shanahan built back to back Super Bowl teams through the draft, free agency, andexisting players. Of the 25 starters on Denver's first Super Bowl Championship team, 14 were brought in by Shanahan. 10 of those were free agents.

Shanahan's drafting a FA choices in later years would be end up causing his demise, but he did build 2 championship teams primarily through free agency. How many head coaches in the history of the NFL have won back to back Super Bowls again? Does that mean that the Broncos should go out and break the bank this year? I don't think so, but I also think that they should be in the bidding for a few key players.

Just because a player is named Peppers or Haynseworth, doesn't make them a key player to the Broncos future plans. It's going to depend on what the current staff thinks of the players in place. I'm curious Cugel. How do you know we need, as you say, "almost seven new players in our front seven", when you don't even know what the defensive scheme is or how the coaches have evaluated the players that are currently in place?

"25 starters" huh? I think a LOT of teams might be able to win a SB if they were allowed to play with 13 guys on defense and 12 on offense! You might want to re-check your math there cause there are only 22 starters on any team! :laugh:

Did you watch the games last season? Do you really think Shanahan went from being a SB winning coach to a complete imbecile who couldn't coach?

Think he had a defense that the entire league thinks is stocked with mediocre or simply bad talent, but was really a bunch of stars just waiting for a new coach to prove how great they are?

Do you believe a new coach and new defensive scheme is going to make good players of John Engleberger, Ebeneezer Ekuban, Crowder, Moss? Kenny Peterson perhaps? Marquand Manuel and Marlon McCree and Nikko Koutivides are about to bust out? :laugh:

The Front seven sucked. Bad.

Shanny was desperately trying to patch it with FAs the last 3 years and nothing he tried worked.

Some people just don't want to deal with reality. :coffee:

The Broncos roster on defense is stuffed with draft busts, FA cast-offs and underperformers. There are very few players that any other team in the league would want on their roster.

Most of these guys will be cut this off-season and then watch! They will disappear like Terry Pierce when HE was cut by the Broncos! Or like Tatum Bell take a short stop somewhere before hitting the street (he was out of the league before the Broncos picked him up due to all the RB injuries).

DeWayne Robertson might be the best of them, but his knees are about shot. He needed to take practices off and be used sparingly in games to enable him to finish out the season. Even then he missed several games due to his degenerative knee condition that caused the Jets to get rid of him.

That's a perfect example of Shanahan desperately gambling on a player other teams consider too risky, because he had no choice.

I could go on talking about how the LBs sucked, how Koutivides was paid millions, then ultimately benched and is expected to be cut, how Boss Bailey and Nate Webster failed, how #1 and #2 draft picks Moss & Crowder were healthy scratches who produced nothing whatever.

What's the point? Either you watched these guys over the last 2 years or you didn't.

If you choose to believe Denver's defense, which was arguably the WORST in the NFL last season (given how strong the offense was and how often Cutler put together long drives that kept the defense off the field) was actually filled with unutilized talent then you're going to be mighty depressed when they cut most of these guys and relegate others to the bench! :coffee:

Requiem / The Dagda
02-15-2009, 02:13 PM
I think people understand that our defense sucks.

Cugel
02-15-2009, 02:26 PM
I would almost agree that Denver wouldnt make a play for a bigtime player if Shanny was still here. That was his MO when it came to FA's. He would take more risks with players who "supposedly" possessed talent but had major character flaws only to have it blow up in his face.

Its a new regime now. Offensively, most of the parts are in place aside from maybe a #1 back. So half the battle is already won in that dept. Defensively there is some work to be done but Denver has some great options both draft wise and in the FA market to turn that puppy around 180 degrees. As long as the drafting continues to produce quality players and if Denver can sign a couple of stud FA's i think we can compete next year in the playoffs.

Trying to build this team further in the draft for 4 years down the road is just wasting too much time. I just dont see it happening. McDaniels was put into place to turn this team around now, not 4 years down the road.

#1. If the draft produces 3 or 4 quality players on DEFENSE it will be a success.

#2. If Denver can find a couple of medium priced FAs to play NT, DE, and S, possibly LB then great! The rebuilding will be quicker.

But, it may very well take 3 years or so to get things really turned around.

After all a rookie can't just come into the league and expect to be a pro-bowl player from day one, at least not at DL! It will take 2 or 3 years for anybody they draft to make a serious impact.

Look at DT Glenn Dorsey drafted by the Chiefs last year. No impact whatever and he was as highly touted a rookie DT as we've seen in then NFL in a while.

Now, is he a bust? NO! He might play great in his 2nd or 3rd year! (It took Michael Strahan 4 years to have a great season and Mario Williams was considered a BUST after his first season. Haloti Ngata took 3 years to become a dominating NT).

Requiem / The Dagda
02-15-2009, 02:29 PM
And with what you're saying is all the more reason for Denver to take initiative into getting a impact player in free agency. I'm really confused as to the title of the thread and what you're all saying. What is your argument that we won't make a big splash in free agency? Because it costs a lot of money? Um, okay. Yeah. We know that. It doesn't mean Denver won't spend money.

Northman
02-15-2009, 02:33 PM
And with what you're saying is all the more reason for Denver to take initiative into getting a impact player in free agency. I'm really confused as to the title of the thread and what you're all saying. What is your argument that we won't make a big splash in free agency? Because it costs a lot of money? Um, okay. Yeah. We know that. It doesn't mean Denver won't spend money.


Agreed. And i think for the first time Denver SHOULD spend the money. We have 41 million in cap room so as long as the organization is smart about the contracts they sign they have plenty of room to sign FA's. Again, if we werent planning on making the playoffs for another 4 years why fire Shanahan? Bowlen made the move because he wants to win, not wait 4 more years down the road.

Requiem / The Dagda
02-15-2009, 02:34 PM
And yes Cugel, we get the concept of the draft and free agency. Free agency, it costs money, but it's also a chance to get veteran players who can hopefully help your team immediately. The Draft, is for the long-term and you're hopeful to get immediate impacts from your high selections. We are not stupid.

Requiem / The Dagda
02-15-2009, 02:39 PM
Agreed. And i think for the first time Denver SHOULD spend the money. We have 41 million in cap room so as long as the organization is smart about the contracts they sign they have plenty of room to sign FA's. Again, if we werent planning on making the playoffs for another 4 years why fire Shanahan? Bowlen made the move because he wants to win, not wait 4 more years down the road.

I think the whole money thing is inconsequential when it comes down to it. Year after year, Denver fans always wonder about the money. Well, Denver has spent money in big ways over the past several years. Starting with Champ (whose contract is peanuts now, but remember the talk at the time when we got him), onward with several others from Walker to Bly, and even Boss Bailey got a decent price on the market last year.

There are no sure bets in Free Agency, Draft or Trade -- so I don't fault Denver for making some of the money moves they did.

When it comes down to it, it's Bowlen's money. Maybe the argument could be made that he's pissed with how stuff has been spent recently, but I'm willing to bet if McDaniels goes to Bowlen and says, "Hey Pat, that Julius Peppers guy would be a great step forward in building an identity for our defense." -- he is going to listen.

New coach, new team moving forward. Denver will be looking for an identity and a player to build that defense around. The team needs a leader, and there are some nice free agents on the market who could fill voids in multiple areas. Denver is an attractive place for players to play, and I think we'll be in discussions with several big name guys.

I expect us to be active in pursuit, whether or not we get them is a different story.

Good thoughts, N.

elsid13
02-15-2009, 03:31 PM
I think people understand that our defense sucks.

Does it because I always put it in same conversation with 85 bears and 00 ravens

Ziggy
02-15-2009, 03:49 PM
"25 starters" huh? I think a LOT of teams might be able to win a SB if they were allowed to play with 13 guys on defense and 12 on offense! You might want to re-check your math there cause there are only 22 starters on any team! :laugh:

:

So I guess you've never worried about the PK, P, and K returner huh? I must have forgotten that they don't count as much in Madden.

I don't remember ever saying our front 7 was good. I do think that we might have more talent on this D than you think. Then again, I forgot that you seem to know everything. My mistake.

Lonestar
02-15-2009, 03:49 PM
Outside of injuries, I think we're about to play a handful of the most dominant and consistent defenses in the NFL. Pitt, Bmore, NYG, Wash, Philly and I believe we get NE, right? Add SD w/ a healthy Merriman twice and our schedule will be BRUTAL. Heck, even Cincy has finally seemed to have found a D (notsaying the TEAM is that great). Doesn't mean we can't win games, just that every win will be earned.

Do not forget OAK and KC with improving young defenses.. this upcoming schedule will be a bear.. Unless one or more of them collapses and most of those teams have been solid for years on D, so that is unlikely..

Our Offense will be tested weekly probably can win a few but hopes for a title well the odds have to be on the moon..

Cugel your first post was spot on,, many of the die hard mikey fans do not want to here it but he rode this pony into the ground..

some of us have been saying this for many years.. nobody wanted to listen.. because afterall he was the mastermind.. ahahahahahaha

Just have to wonder for all of you that whined about him if we should fire him, about being picked up by another team in seconds still want to believe that?

fcspikeit
02-15-2009, 10:54 PM
I think the whole money thing is inconsequential when it comes down to it. Year after year, Denver fans always wonder about the money. Well, Denver has spent money in big ways over the past several years. Starting with Champ (whose contract is peanuts now, but remember the talk at the time when we got him), onward with several others from Walker to Bly, and even Boss Bailey got a decent price on the market last year.

There are no sure bets in Free Agency, Draft or Trade -- so I don't fault Denver for making some of the money moves they did.

When it comes down to it, it's Bowlen's money. Maybe the argument could be made that he's pissed with how stuff has been spent recently, but I'm willing to bet if McDaniels goes to Bowlen and says, "Hey Pat, that Julius Peppers guy would be a great step forward in building an identity for our defense." -- he is going to listen.

New coach, new team moving forward. Denver will be looking for an identity and a player to build that defense around. The team needs a leader, and there are some nice free agents on the market who could fill voids in multiple areas. Denver is an attractive place for players to play, and I think we'll be in discussions with several big name guys.

I expect us to be active in pursuit, whether or not we get them is a different story.

Good thoughts, N.

I agree, I doubt Mckid would have came here if Pat wasn't going to give him a chance to win now. Look around the league, veteran coaches are being fired if the have a couple losing seasons in a row. If 3 years from now, we have yet to make the playoffs, I see Mckid being shown the door... We will have a limit but we will be in the running for at least a couple big name guys.

Lonestar
02-15-2009, 10:58 PM
I agree, I doubt Mckid would have came here if Pat wasn't going to give him a chance to win now. Look around the league, veteran coaches are being fired if the have a couple losing seasons in a row. If 3 years from now, we have yet to make the playoffs, I see Mckid being shown the door... We will have a limit but we will be in the running for at least a couple big name guys.

I think depending on what he has been allowed to spend on FA that he may NOT be fired if there is a solid base built and progress made..

the fans in DEN are not stupid and have supported this team strongly since 1960.. If they see progress being made then it is not an issue..

Making the playoffs it not an automatic retainer.. If we go 3 years from now and are sent home packing cause we got spanked again.. then that also may have ramifications..

fcspikeit
02-16-2009, 12:31 AM
I think depending on what he has been allowed to spend on FA that he may NOT be fired if there is a solid base built and progress made..

the fans in DEN are not stupid and have supported this team strongly since 1960.. If they see progress being made then it is not an issue..

Making the playoffs it not an automatic retainer.. If we go 3 years from now and are sent home packing cause we got spanked again.. then that also may have ramifications..

For me it's about improvement, we were on the verge of making the playoffs last year.. It's hard to see us improving without making the playoffs.. Maybe he will get a bye next year but the year after that, this team had better be improved enough to get into the playoffs..

Knowing how long it takes to build through the draft, I don't think it will be reasonable to expect the playoffs if Mckid isn't able to bring in some proven guys, either by trade or FA..

If Pat is willing to accept 2 or 3 more years without a playoff birth, I will be shocked. If he is expecting Mckid to win now, he better let him go for a couple impact guys in FA.

roomemp
02-16-2009, 12:47 AM
We are closer than people give us credit for. Look at Miami. They went from 1-15 to the playoffs in one year. We are a running back away from being a top end offense. I only say that because we need to score more points. A more balanced running attack will do that. Our D has real potential. Not to be a top end defense, but to be solid. I don't think we are targeting Haynesworth or Peppers. I think there is a real possiblity we end up with 2 of the following players........Suggs, Canty, and Crowder. I also think we will find a lot of role players via free agency. I don't understand why some people are so pesimistic about the upcoming season. I am so excited. I think we will become a playoff mainstain starting this season.

Lonestar
02-16-2009, 01:38 AM
We are closer than people give us credit for. Look at Miami. They went from 1-15 to the playoffs in one year. We are a running back away from being a top end offense. I only say that because we need to score more points. A more balanced running attack will do that. Our D has real potential. Not to be a top end defense, but to be solid. I don't think we are targeting Haynesworth or Peppers. I think there is a real possiblity we end up with 2 of the following players........Suggs, Canty, and Crowder. I also think we will find a lot of role players via free agency. I don't understand why some people are so pesimistic about the upcoming season. I am so excited. I think we will become a playoff mainstain starting this season.

about the only thing MIA lacked was QB most of the other pieces were in place their defense in prior years kept them in games.. It was the offense that let them down.. most of the games they lost in 2007 where less than 5 points each..

So it was not like them were in the total shambles our defense has been the past TWO years..

If you really think we can do a miracle turn around in one year you must also believe in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus.

If you not have seen who we play next year time to take a look who is on the schedule....

It was not like MIA last year that got to play the AFC west.. probably the weakest division in the NFL last year..

Lonestar
02-16-2009, 01:43 AM
For me it's about improvement, we were on the verge of making the playoffs last year.. It's hard to see us improving without making the playoffs.. Maybe he will get a bye next year but the year after that, this team had better be improved enough to get into the playoffs..

Knowing how long it takes to build through the draft, I don't think it will be reasonable to expect the playoffs if Mckid isn't able to bring in some proven guys, either by trade or FA..

If Pat is willing to accept 2 or 3 more years without a playoff birth, I will be shocked. If he is expecting Mckid to win now, he better let him go for a couple impact guys in FA.

I value you your knowledge and friendship but please please do not even speak of being on the verge of making the playoffs last year.. Even if we had not crumbled those last three games it would have been an embarrassment in the playoffs with this defense..

Even Pat was not blind about it and had he thought his friend could have done something with the defense this year he knew there were other issues on this team..

Pat Knows that this team will not contend this year or probably the next.. as long as there is steady improvement.. Mc Kid and group will have a job in 2012..

roomemp
02-16-2009, 03:11 AM
about the only thing MIA lacked was QB most of the other pieces were in place their defense in prior years kept them in games.. It was the offense that let them down.. most of the games they lost in 2007 where less than 5 points each..

So it was not like them were in the total shambles our defense has been the past TWO years..

If you really think we can do a miracle turn around in one year you must also believe in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus.

If you not have seen who we play next year time to take a look who is on the schedule....

It was not like MIA last year that got to play the AFC west.. probably the weakest division in the NFL last year..

My post mentioned that our D will NOT BE AN ELITE D next year. It has the potential to be solid. Miami was more than a QB away from becoming a contender last year. You mean to tell me that you believe that a possesion QB can turn a 1-15 team into a playoff team just like that. Not likely. In 2007 Miami had the #28 ranked offense. They also had the #23 ranked defense. They sucked all the way around. They had some pieces though. They added some more quality pieces in the offseason plus a regime change and they turned the corner. We were 8-8 last year. Our defense sucked 40% because of scheme and 60% because of lack of talent. Well we are going to have a new scheme and I am sure we will have more talent. Why do you think we won't improve? Its very possible we will have a solid SERVICEABLE D next year

WARHORSE
02-16-2009, 04:48 AM
I think the whole money thing is inconsequential when it comes down to it. Year after year, Denver fans always wonder about the money. Well, Denver has spent money in big ways over the past several years. Starting with Champ (whose contract is peanuts now, but remember the talk at the time when we got him), onward with several others from Walker to Bly, and even Boss Bailey got a decent price on the market last year.

There are no sure bets in Free Agency, Draft or Trade -- so I don't fault Denver for making some of the money moves they did.

When it comes down to it, it's Bowlen's money. Maybe the argument could be made that he's pissed with how stuff has been spent recently, but I'm willing to bet if McDaniels goes to Bowlen and says, "Hey Pat, that Julius Peppers guy would be a great step forward in building an identity for our defense." -- he is going to listen.

New coach, new team moving forward. Denver will be looking for an identity and a player to build that defense around. The team needs a leader, and there are some nice free agents on the market who could fill voids in multiple areas. Denver is an attractive place for players to play, and I think we'll be in discussions with several big name guys.

I expect us to be active in pursuit, whether or not we get them is a different story.

Good thoughts, N.


Ah, finally.

We have found the ONE.

The wise one who can see.

---------------------------------

With all of Denvers moves, they do what is within their BUDGET, while trying to make the best moves to help the team.

There are no guarantees ANYWHERE.

How you gonna know for sure youre gonna be able to build this year in the draft? You dont know jack cause no matter how well you scout, there are no guarantees that the individual players :

-that -you-target.......that-are-still-available-to-you.......that are in positions of neeeeed.........are still going to be there!


And if they arent, who the hell you gonna pick? Youre going to pick players with POTENTIAL........and all you can do after that is hope things pan out.

Simple as that.

Draft success is hugely determined by variables YOU CANT CONTROL.

So to 'build through the draft' only means you pick as many players as you can, and hope they pan out.

But to ignore FAgency is about as bright as a turd under some roadkill on a dark night with a semi rollin on it in a rainstorm.

:coffee: Just sayin.............

broncosinindy
02-16-2009, 07:13 AM
I think the whole money thing is inconsequential when it comes down to it. Year after year, Denver fans always wonder about the money. Well, Denver has spent money in big ways over the past several years. Starting with Champ (whose contract is peanuts now, but remember the talk at the time when we got him), onward with several others from Walker to Bly, and even Boss Bailey got a decent price on the market last year.

There are no sure bets in Free Agency, Draft or Trade -- so I don't fault Denver for making some of the money moves they did.

When it comes down to it, it's Bowlen's money. Maybe the argument could be made that he's pissed with how stuff has been spent recently, but I'm willing to bet if McDaniels goes to Bowlen and says, "Hey Pat, that Julius Peppers guy would be a great step forward in building an identity for our defense." -- he is going to listen.

New coach, new team moving forward. Denver will be looking for an identity and a player to build that defense around. The team needs a leader, and there are some nice free agents on the market who could fill voids in multiple areas. Denver is an attractive place for players to play, and I think we'll be in discussions with several big name guys.

I expect us to be active in pursuit, whether or not we get them is a different story.

Good thoughts, N.penuts...champs contract is the biggest on the team.
I cant remember who said it but someone said Julius peppers is a part time player. I dont see him as the Rah Rah guy.With switching schemes giving that man that type of Dough to play a position he has never played before is a BIG risk. and a risk i would rather see ED or JM try and fill.

Although instead of him playing jack. what about trying him at SOLB? he has a nose for the ball could anchor the strong side get after the passer. and drop into zone.. something he does pretty well

SmilinAssasSin27
02-16-2009, 07:58 AM
about the only thing MIA lacked was QB most of the other pieces were in place their defense in prior years kept them in games.. It was the offense that let them down.. most of the games they lost in 2007 where less than 5 points each..

So it was not like them were in the total shambles our defense has been the past TWO years..

If you really think we can do a miracle turn around in one year you must also believe in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus.

If you not have seen who we play next year time to take a look who is on the schedule....

It was not like MIA last year that got to play the AFC west.. probably the weakest division in the NFL last year..

They were 1-15. They neded more than a QB. Parcells completely redid the dline and if i'm not mistaken, got OL help as well.

warcrychief
02-16-2009, 08:48 AM
about the only thing MIA lacked was QB most of the other pieces were in place their defense in prior years kept them in games.. It was the offense that let them down.. most of the games they lost in 2007 where less than 5 points each..

So it was not like them were in the total shambles our defense has been the past TWO years..

If you really think we can do a miracle turn around in one year you must also believe in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus.

If you not have seen who we play next year time to take a look who is on the schedule....

It was not like MIA last year that got to play the AFC west.. probably the weakest division in the NFL last year..

MIA also played the NFC West. The stars aligned for them. And from what i can see is that Parcells knew exactly how he wanted this team to work. And He didnt learn that over night. None of them were big time FA but pieces of a larger picture only Parcells knew how to make.

Come next season the AFC West is going though a meat grinder (AFC North, NFC East). And i thought this year was bad. There might be a big chance that the winner of the AFC West might not even have a winning record. But hey this will be fun to watch these divisions to go at each other.

CoachChaz
02-16-2009, 09:09 AM
Moss, Welker, Adalius Thomas, Lamont Jordan, Colvin...


...I dont think the Pats were built strictly through the draft or without big money being thrown to proven players.

SmilinAssasSin27
02-16-2009, 09:20 AM
Those examples don't help your argument. Remember, Moss was on his way out of the league. Noone wanted him. Oakland paid his $$ and got little compensation rom NE. Welker was traded for a draft pick and was never expensive. Colvin and Jordan weren't expensive at all. Jordan was supposed to ne the shit, but flopped when he got his chance. He's now a journeyman. Hell....even Dillon was a bargain. The only high prices names they brought in were Adalius and MAYBE R Harrison. I don't remember the specifics of Harrison's deal/acquisition.

CoachChaz
02-16-2009, 09:25 AM
Point being...they took risks. Moss was a head risk, as was Dillon. They gambled on Welker being the player he is and spent a ton on Thomas. So, they dont always throw wads of cash at people, but in one form or another, they take chances.

So saying that a guy isnt worth X amount of money or that another is a locker room cancer that you dont want to deal with has to be forgotten. Seems like that's the way Denver has been rolling for a few years now and where has that gotten them?

roomemp
02-16-2009, 11:01 AM
Lets just finish the argument here. Our D sucks. Everyone wants to rebuild it through the draft so our D will improve in the next 4 years. By then, our prolific offense will be aging. Denver will be nothing but bottom feeders for the next 4 years.

Cugel
02-16-2009, 11:15 AM
How can the Chuggers be elite, but Philly not be?

Well, for one thing their starting QB isn't 86 years old. :coffee:

The Eagles have been to the NFC Championship 5 times and won 1? The Chargers are a much younger team and have been 1 time. They've won their division the last 3 years. The Eagles? Do they look like a team that's on the rise? How long do they have before Donovan McNabb starts receiving his social security checks? He's been beaten up so much they ought to give him his own clinic!

I'd pick Arizona over the Eagles, but are the Cardinals more than a one-year wonder, rather like the Bears? With the retirement of Kurt Warner they go right back to nowhere-ville with an unproven young QB. :coffee:

I'm sure you can make a case for the Eagles as an elite team if you want to. They've had some success in the playoffs but they don't seem to be a team that is going to be better next year or the year after than they are right now.

The Chargers do. WIth the exception of LT they are a team with YOUNG talent.

I HATE the Chargers and HATE Phillip Rivers, but he's clearly one of the top 5 QBs in football right now. Now I will go and rinse my mouth out for saying that. :tsk:

CoachChaz
02-16-2009, 11:26 AM
I can buy this. Philly isnt getting younger. They have probably been the most consistent power in the NFC over the past 6-7 years, but McNabb, the tackles, Dawkins, even Westbrook seem to be headed into a decline if not already there.

Is SD more of a power? Hard to say. LT is a question mark at times and the defense has been stepping backwards. At this point I'd say both teams have pieces to build around, but niether of them really scare me going into the 2009 season.

SmilinAssasSin27
02-16-2009, 12:00 PM
The Chargers were 8-8 in just about the weakest division in football. sorry. You give Philly no credit, but SD hasn't accomplished 1/4 of what Philly has...and Philly was in the NFCCG THIS year.

CoachChaz
02-16-2009, 12:08 PM
Who was it that kept knocking my Power Rankings and telling me I had Philly overrated? Seriously...I cant remember

SmilinAssasSin27
02-16-2009, 01:08 PM
I dunno. I was the one who kept saying Pitt shpuld be higher. Honestly didn't think they'd win the SB, but they are one tough out.

BRONCOSFREAK765
02-17-2009, 12:07 AM
If only we still had sam adams...lol jk. But seriously anyone know which ihop daryl gardner is at?

WARHORSE
02-17-2009, 02:02 AM
If only we still had sam adams...lol jk. But seriously anyone know which ihop daryl gardner is at?


But seriously........you want to bring up Gardner?

For what?:confused:

WARHORSE
02-17-2009, 02:05 AM
I think depending on what he has been allowed to spend on FA that he may NOT be fired if there is a solid base built and progress made..

the fans in DEN are not stupid and have supported this team strongly since 1960.. If they see progress being made then it is not an issue..

Making the playoffs it not an automatic retainer.. If we go 3 years from now and are sent home packing cause we got spanked again.. then that also may have ramifications..


You must have been in the toilet when Bowlen said ' I WANT TO WIN THE SUPERBOWL' when addressing the firing of Shanahan.

Im pretty sure he didnt say, ' I WANT TO SEE SOME IMPROVEMENT AROUND HERE.'

Or, ' I WANT TO WIN THE SUPERBOWL WITHIN THE NEXT FEW YEARS.'



I agree with those who understand that Bowlen wants to win NOW.

Those who dont understand that?

Back o da bus.:coffee:




SHOTGUN!


:D

JKcatch724
02-17-2009, 02:55 AM
The Chargers were 8-8 in just about the weakest division in football. sorry. You give Philly no credit, but SD hasn't accomplished 1/4 of what Philly has...and Philly was in the NFCCG THIS year.

To do what Philly did in their division this year was tough. The chuggers got in because we sucked down the stretch and the chiefs and raiders were the chiefs and raiders.

JKcatch724
02-17-2009, 03:02 AM
You must have been in the toilet when Bowlen said ' I WANT TO WIN THE SUPERBOWL' when addressing the firing of Shanahan.

Im pretty sure he didnt say, ' I WANT TO SEE SOME IMPROVEMENT AROUND HERE.'

Or, ' I WANT TO WIN THE SUPERBOWL WITHIN THE NEXT FEW YEARS.'



I agree with those who understand that Bowlen wants to win NOW.

Those who dont understand that?

Back o da bus.:coffee:




SHOTGUN!


:D

Of course Bowlen wants to win the Super Bowl every year, but so does every Bronco fan on this board. Pat Bowlen is a smart man and I'm sure he's a realist. He probably knows that we're most likely not sniffing the SB this year.... but 2010? 2011? I'm willing to bet he has has eye on a year or two down the road to when we can be Super Bowl contenders.

Make no mistake he will do whatever he has to do to win ASAP, which is why I love him. He has proven that so far this offseason. But I'm sure he knows that we may be a couple of years away.