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View Full Version : Rebuilding the defense via draft and FA



BigAL56
02-13-2009, 04:21 PM
Hey guys, sorry if this has been posted already, but I didn't see it. I'd love your thoughts on how we need to rebuild this defense. Let's put on our GM hats for a bit and look at how and who we need to transition to a 3-4 and make this team more balanced.

D-Line. Personally, I think we have the personnel at Defensive end. Neither Engleberger or Ekuban were dominant as 4-3 ends...the lack of speed and quickness probably didn't help too much. But I think they have the size and ability to play DE at a fairly high level in a 3-4 scheme. Big need here? Nose Tackle. We have no one that can play nose tackle well in a 3-4 scheme. That one takes more than just bulk, and it's one of the most important positions in the 3-4 scheme.

Linebackers. We have one guy who we all know can play at a high level anywhere at LB...DJ Williams. Other than that, I'm not too crazy about anyone else...maybe Woodyard. I don't want us to get rid of Boss b/c of the chemistry b/w him and Champ. And I don't think Champ would be stoked to see his brother cut. There are two routes I'd prefer to go here. Either:
Rushing OLB: Doom, Moss, and maybe Cushing (via draft)
Middle: DJ and one other via draft or FA (I would want Rey Mau from SC)
OLB: Boss, Woodyard competition

A lot of routes we could go with the linebacking core...love to hear your thoughts there.

Needs At least one middle backer and one rushing outside backer

Defensive backs
I think our corner situation is fine...though I think some might disagree. Dre played good without Champ this season, and if Champ stays healthy...

Safety: My sister could start for Denver at saftey right now. We need two new guys.

Need 2 new safetys. The only guy I like in the draft is the kid from Missouri.

My problem is the three guys I want are all first round guys. Cushing, Rey, and Moore.


If I were the GM, here is what I'd do.

Free Agency:
-Pick up Terrell Suggs. That takes care of our rushing outside backer.
-Dunte Robinson, Brian Dawkins, Jermain Phillips. At least one of the three.

Draft:
-Rey Maeuluga (sp?)
-Ron Brace, DT Boston College
-Patrick Chung S Oregon

Our Defense would then look like this:
DE: Engleberger, Ekuban
DT: Rob Brace
ROLB:Terrell Suggs (backed up by Moss and Dum)
MLB: Rey and DJ
OLB: Boss and Woodyard (battling it out)
CB: Champ, Bly, Paymah, Williams
S:Whoever we can get.

Anyone else's thoughts?

BigAL56
02-13-2009, 04:22 PM
My favorite Mock Draft site has us taking Raji (but SD taking Rey...I don't like that.)

http://www.draftcountdown.com/sub/Mock-Draft-A.php

EMB6903
02-13-2009, 05:16 PM
Rey is another over-rated player from USC, people will disagree but I wasnt impressed with any of the USC linebackers in the senior bowl. Rey's instincts are a joke, hes not athletic, and he over pursues all the time.... Rather wait for a Jasper Brinkley in the 2nd day over drafting an inside linebacker as the 12th pick in the draft... Im hoping Raji is there at 12 otherwise to trade down and draft Sintim or Brown


USC players under Pete Carroll coming into the NFL= SOFT, Multiple USC players enter the draft each year and outside of Polamalu, Rivers and you can make a case for Palmer and Patterson but other then that I dont think any USC player has lived up to his potential

BigAL56
02-13-2009, 05:20 PM
Lofa Tatupu?

SmilinAssasSin27
02-13-2009, 05:24 PM
No big FA spending please. Chris Canty from Dallasb to play 3-4 DE and then draft Raji or Tyson Jackson at #12. That makes 2/3 of the new DLine.

EMB6903
02-13-2009, 05:25 PM
Lofa Tatupu?

forgot about tatupu, my mistake

SmilinAssasSin27
02-13-2009, 05:27 PM
I think the list of flops is still bigger. I can't think of any of the OL that have panned out. WRs?

BigAL56
02-13-2009, 05:30 PM
No big FA spending please. Chris Canty from Dallasb to play 3-4 DE and then draft Raji or Tyson Jackson at #12. That makes 2/3 of the new DLine.

We need to. How many draftees have panned out on our defense (outside of DJ)? I don't want to spend big money either, but we have the cap room. And we don't have the time to draft, hope, and develop. We need proven players. I think Raji is overrated, dumb, and not motivated...ha. Last season was the only one I thought he looked any good...and that's because we he playing motivated. But the guy doesn't know his ass from his elbow.

We just have too many needs to not go big in FA. I would be okay with your thought, but what do we then do about safety? We have ZERO guys that can play that position on this roster. Could it hurt to bring in Dawkins on a three year contract and then draft a guy to develop under him?

BigAL56
02-13-2009, 05:32 PM
I think the list of flops is still bigger. I can't think of any of the OL that have panned out. WRs?

I'm with you. But I still think Cushing and Rey are in a different class. They have brought a lot of talent to the nfl. Reggie Bush wasn't expected to be that amazing by draft experts, but he has been pretty dynamic. Steve Smith, WR. I mean, you can't look at a college team and say that b/c they wore red uniforms, they won't be good in the pros.

BigAL56
02-13-2009, 05:33 PM
And I need to pot a disclaimer: USC is my least favorite football team in college. But every team puts more flops that ballers into the NFL

Lonestar
02-13-2009, 05:39 PM
We need to. How many draftees have panned out on our defense (outside of DJ)? I don't want to spend big money either, but we have the cap room. And we don't have the time to draft, hope, and develop. We need proven players. I think Raji is overrated, dumb, and not motivated...ha. Last season was the only one I thought he looked any good...and that's because we he playing motivated. But the guy doesn't know his ass from his elbow.

We just have too many needs to not go big in FA. I would be okay with your thought, but what do we then do about safety? We have ZERO guys that can play that position on this roster. Could it hurt to bring in Dawkins on a three year contract and then draft a guy to develop under him?


once again we may have the CAP room but that does not mean we have the money to pay out right now..

I'll go on record saying that we will be very conservative with FA's this year and wait for left overs from the rest of the league and get second or third tier guys if any at all..

Pat has lots of other money issues..

We will have the patience to build via the draft.. Much like we did last year.. actually since 2006..

EMB6903
02-13-2009, 05:41 PM
We need to. How many draftees have panned out on our defense (outside of DJ)? I don't want to spend big money either, but we have the cap room. And we don't have the time to draft, hope, and develop. We need proven players. I think Raji is overrated, dumb, and not motivated...ha. Last season was the only one I thought he looked any good...and that's because we he playing motivated. But the guy doesn't know his ass from his elbow.

We just have too many needs to not go big in FA. I would be okay with your thought, but what do we then do about safety? We have ZERO guys that can play that position on this roster. Could it hurt to bring in Dawkins on a three year contract and then draft a guy to develop under him?

I agree Denver needs to go out and try to sign 1-2 big time FA's Im really hoping Denver pursues Jermaine Phillips and Julius Peppers (if he doesnt get tagged)

Im tired of the FO spending money on 4 scrub/run down players in Free agency every year instead of going after elite talent

SmilinAssasSin27
02-13-2009, 05:42 PM
We need to. How many draftees have panned out on our defense (outside of DJ)? I don't want to spend big money either, but we have the cap room. And we don't have the time to draft, hope, and develop. We need proven players. I think Raji is overrated, dumb, and not motivated...ha. Last season was the only one I thought he looked any good...and that's because we he playing motivated. But the guy doesn't know his ass from his elbow.

We just have too many needs to not go big in FA. I would be okay with your thought, but what do we then do about safety? We have ZERO guys that can play that position on this roster. Could it hurt to bring in Dawkins on a three year contract and then draft a guy to develop under him?

I disagree 100%. It's called quicksand. Once ya get desperate and start to reach/overpay, ya get farther behind and sink faster. Let's regroup, get younger on D, use that money to lock up the youth on offense and draft wisely. We can add parts thru FA, but don't break the bank for the sake of doing it. We aren't winning the SB in 2009. But we can be legit in 2010 and still have a soild core for the future.

EMB6903
02-13-2009, 05:43 PM
I'm with you. But I still think Cushing and Rey are in a different class. They have brought a lot of talent to the nfl. Reggie Bush wasn't expected to be that amazing by draft experts, but he has been pretty dynamic. Steve Smith, WR. I mean, you can't look at a college team and say that b/c they wore red uniforms, they won't be good in the pros.


to 80% of the "draft experts" in 2006 Reggie Bush was a lock as the 1st overall pick.... being the #2 pick you should do more then become a situational RB who is a threat as a return man

Ziggy
02-13-2009, 05:50 PM
Not a bad plan, but there's no way Suggs leaves the Ravens unless it's for the Jets.

BigAL56
02-13-2009, 06:11 PM
I was watching something today that was saying that Baltimore won't give Suggs the big money, so he'll probably be somewhere else. I could, however see him landing with the Jets. I wouldn't mind bringing Vilma in and drafting Cushing though...

Assassin, I'm not saying to pick up a big money free agent for every position. I'm saying get 2 or 3. McDaniels and Xander are going to be under pressure from Bowlen to get something done quick for that defense.

The free agents listed are all options...I'm not saying to get all of them...that's just not realistic. But we do have a need to have some proven players in there. We have got to get some big name guys in here to chance the attitude. We have picked up so many 2nd and third tier guys in free agency, and they've hurt us more than helped us. We need something to change the attitude in Denver. If we added Suggs and Dawkins to that list, think our defensive attitude might be a little bit better?

Yes, draft well, but let's be contenders while our draftees develop under the tutlidge of quality, proven, NFL players.

And Jrwiz, we haven't been even remotely successful (on the defensive side of the ball) relying on your thoughts. What defensive guys have we picked up from the draft since 2006 that have panned out? I can't think of one. And for the second and third tier FA guys...should we get the rest of the Brown's D-line again? We definitly do need to draft, but we need to make some big moves on defense. And I guarentee you with Bowlen's impatience w/our defense...there are going to be some big moves. The question is who, what position, and how many

BigAL56
02-13-2009, 06:17 PM
to 80% of the "draft experts" in 2006 Reggie Bush was a lock as the 1st overall pick.... being the #2 pick you should do more then become a situational RB who is a threat as a return man

Well, that's the hope...but we could look at it this way: He's been more productive than anyone in the top 10. And he's been arguably the second most productive than anyone that went in the first round...the only one clearly ahead of him is Cutler. The rest that are arguable? Cromartie,Ngata, and Holmes. So he's up there

EMB6903
02-13-2009, 06:29 PM
Well, that's the hope...but we could look at it this way: He's been more productive than anyone in the top 10. And he's been arguably the second most productive than anyone that went in the first round...the only one clearly ahead of him is Cutler. The rest that are arguable? Cromartie,Ngata, and Holmes. So he's up there

Bush hasnt been nearly as productive as Mario Williams in my opinion Ernie Sims could argue that as well

USC produces a ton of talent and they put out great players, I just think the mentality isnt there, Carroll babies these players.like I said majority of the players that played under carroll at USC come out SOFT

BigAL56
02-13-2009, 06:36 PM
Yea, we'd just have to agree to disagree. I think that depends on the player, not the coach. But you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that would characterize Mauluga or Cushing as "soft"

Lonestar
02-13-2009, 06:45 PM
I was watching something today that was saying that Baltimore won't give Suggs the big money, so he'll probably be somewhere else. I could, however see him landing with the Jets. I wouldn't mind bringing Vilma in and drafting Cushing though...

Assassin, I'm not saying to pick up a big money free agent for every position. I'm saying get 2 or 3. McDaniels and Xander are going to be under pressure from Bowlen to get something done quick for that defense.

The free agents listed are all options...I'm not saying to get all of them...that's just not realistic. But we do have a need to have some proven players in there. We have got to get some big name guys in here to chance the attitude. We have picked up so many 2nd and third tier guys in free agency, and they've hurt us more than helped us. We need something to change the attitude in Denver. If we added Suggs and Dawkins to that list, think our defensive attitude might be a little bit better?

Yes, draft well, but let's be contenders while our draftees develop under the tutlidge of quality, proven, NFL players.

And Jrwiz, we haven't been even remotely successful (on the defensive side of the ball) relying on your thoughts. What defensive guys have we picked up from the draft since 2006 that have panned out? I can't think of one. And for the second and third tier FA guys...should we get the rest of the Brown's D-line again? We definitly do need to draft, but we need to make some big moves on defense. And I guarentee you with Bowlen's impatience w/our defense...there are going to be some big moves. The question is who, what position, and how many

can't go tot the JETS as before Farve left they were already over the cap.. by IIRC 7-8 mil..



Your correct we have sucked at building D in the draft.. but when you only take the following folks..

2008 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 12 Ryan Clady T Boise State
2 42 Eddie Royal WR Virginia Tech
4 108 Kory Lichtensteiger G Bowling Green State
4 119 Jack Williams CB Kent State
5 139 Ryan Torain RB Arizona State
5 148 Carlton Powell DT Virginia Tech
6 183 Spencer Larsen OLB Arizona then played him at FB
7 220 Josh Barrett SAF Arizona State
7 227 Peyton Hillis FB Arkansas
2007 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 17 Jarvis Moss DE Florida
2 56 Tim Crowder DE Texas
3 70 Ryan Harris OT Notre Dame
4 121 Marcus Thomas DT Florida
2006 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 11 Jay Cutler QB Vanderbilt
2 61 Tony Scheffler TE Western Michigan
4 119 Brandon Marshall WR Central Florida
4 126 Elvis Dumervil DE Louisville
4 130 Domenik Hixon WR Akron
5 161 Chris Kuper G North Dakota
6 198 Greg Eslinger C Minnesota

8 players total out of 20 players right up front you lose and then only 2 were first day picks..How can you expect to build via the draft while not giving any priority to them and then ask them to coach themselves..

what do you expect.. one was played as a FB another was PUP.. another had not played in almost 18 months and one had a staff infection which I'm thinking he has still not recovered totally from.. That is more than half of his "choices" on draft day..

sorry mikey HAS NEVER prioritized D on draft day going back to 1995 except 4 LBs and ONE DE IIRC almost none were first day picks.. other than the 3 LB and price none were worth a crap either.. and please do not bring up delta cause we all know he was a neutral at best while in DEN.. make a play blow a play..

we have a new guy in town with EXPERIENCED highly qualified DC and assistant coaches to help find talent in the draft.. I'll bet the will be better than 50%..

Lonestar
02-13-2009, 06:47 PM
I was watching something today that was saying that Baltimore won't give Suggs the big money, so he'll probably be somewhere else. I could, however see him landing with the Jets. I wouldn't mind bringing Vilma in and drafting Cushing though...

Assassin, I'm not saying to pick up a big money free agent for every position. I'm saying get 2 or 3. McDaniels and Xander are going to be under pressure from Bowlen to get something done quick for that defense.

The free agents listed are all options...I'm not saying to get all of them...that's just not realistic. But we do have a need to have some proven players in there. We have got to get some big name guys in here to chance the attitude. We have picked up so many 2nd and third tier guys in free agency, and they've hurt us more than helped us. We need something to change the attitude in Denver. If we added Suggs and Dawkins to that list, think our defensive attitude might be a little bit better?




Yes, draft well, but let's be contenders while our draftees develop under the tutlidge of quality, proven, NFL players.

And Jrwiz, we haven't been even remotely successful (on the defensive side of the ball) relying on your thoughts. What defensive guys have we picked up from the draft since 2006 that have panned out? I can't think of one. And for the second and third tier FA guys...should we get the rest of the Brown's D-line again? We definitly do need to draft, but we need to make some big moves on defense. And I guarentee you with Bowlen's impatience w/our defense...there are going to be some big moves. The question is who, what position, and how many

one more time there is very little if any money available for FA's..

EMB6903
02-13-2009, 06:48 PM
Mauluga is a madman physically but who knows about his mentality?

wasnt darnell bing a physical player coming out of college, same with shaun cody, and how many first day picks have been busts? Mike williams, Frostie Rucker, Dominique Byrd,Taitusi Lutui, Winston Justice, dwyane Jarrett, Reggie Bush (Im not gonna say hes a bust but he definately hasnt lived up to his potential being the #2 player selected overall, even Lendale White hasnt lived up to expectations... if you draft a RB in the 2nd round you expect them to be more then a situational running back

BigAL56
02-13-2009, 07:48 PM
one more time there is very little if any money available for FA's..

I have no idea why you think that...NFL network has been saying we are going to be one of the biggest FA players b/c we have the money and b/c of our new coaches

BigAL56
02-13-2009, 07:51 PM
Mauluga is a madman physically but who knows about his mentality?

wasnt darnell bing a physical player coming out of college, same with shaun cody, and how many first day picks have been busts? Mike williams, Frostie Rucker, Dominique Byrd,Taitusi Lutui, Winston Justice, dwyane Jarrett, Reggie Bush (Im not gonna say hes a bust but he definately hasnt lived up to his potential being the #2 player selected overall, even Lendale White hasnt lived up to expectations... if you draft a RB in the 2nd round you expect them to be more then a situational running back

Again, it's the person. No college coach is going to make a player soft for his career mentally. I could just go the opposite with the tough guys...palmer, lofa, steve smith...

I watch SC week in and week out. Cushing and Mauluga are some of the toughest kids I've seen.

In all, no one is going to know anything about anybody until a few years into the NFL. It's all a crapshoot. But yes, defense needs to be a focus of the draft (it kinda was when we took paymah, dwill, and foxy back to back to back...ha) But while we build through the draft, it would be big to have some proven players in there

EMB6903
02-13-2009, 08:08 PM
toughest kids you have seen? maybe in the pac 10 behind a stud defensive line each year.... when it comes to the NFL though? I think it will be a different story


and you dont think a college coach has a part to do with a college kids future?

BRONCOSFREAK765
02-13-2009, 08:28 PM
Suggs will be franchised, Ray will get a contract. Canty will end up in Miami..I could see us making a play for one or more of the following.... Bart Scott, Andra Davis, Takeo Spikes and maybe Larry Foote. We all need to be realistic and move past the fact that Haynesworth and Peppers will not be here.

broncosinindy
02-13-2009, 08:36 PM
No big FA spending please. Chris Canty from Dallasb to play 3-4 DE and then draft Raji or Tyson Jackson at #12. That makes 2/3 of the new DLine.

Getting Canty is gonna cost big bucks.

broncohead
02-13-2009, 08:38 PM
How expensive do you think a guy like Derrick Ward would be? We all know that RB is an issue and if we can get a guy like Ward we can sustain drives longer keeping the D fresh. Also could save a draft pick.

Lonestar
02-13-2009, 08:40 PM
I have no idea why you think that...NFL network has been saying we are going to be one of the biggest FA players b/c we have the money and b/c of our new coaches


one of the other threads stated the many teams as in a cash flow issue..

Just because the cap space is available does not mean that Pat has the cash to spend on signing bonuses.. WHICH are paid today but allocated over teh life of the contract for cap purposes..

On top of all that we have to pay roster bonuses over the next few weeks to several players OR take a cap hit for letting them go.. so do we hand them cash which is hard to come by or kill the cap?

Pat cut FO staff last year..in a cost cutting move..

Pat owes Mikey 7 mil and slowish 1 for this year not to mention that latest Goodman cuts.. and other coaches that do not find jobs that match or exceed their contracts amounts for this year..

While these numbers are not reflected in the CAP space they are still CASH he has to come up with to pay..

Does this help?

The man is not a money tree..

SmilinAssasSin27
02-13-2009, 08:41 PM
Getting Canty is gonna cost big bucks.

It could, but I'm not totally convinced of that. He's not first tier FA...prolly not even 2nd. He isn't a fit for everyone and there has to be a need for him. More than 1 team will go after him, but he could be a bargain...especially given the economic climate.

BigAL56
02-13-2009, 09:11 PM
one of the other threads stated the many teams as in a cash flow issue..

Just because the cap space is available does not mean that Pat has the cash to spend on signing bonuses.. WHICH are paid today but allocated over teh life of the contract for cap purposes..

On top of all that we have to pay roster bonuses over the next few weeks to several players OR take a cap hit for letting them go.. so do we hand them cash which is hard to come by or kill the cap?

Pat cut FO staff last year..in a cost cutting move..

Pat owes Mikey 7 mil and slowish 1 for this year not to mention that latest Goodman cuts.. and other coaches that do not find jobs that match or exceed their contracts amounts for this year..

While these numbers are not reflected in the CAP space they are still CASH he has to come up with to pay..

Does this help?

The man is not a money tree..

I can see now how you might come to that conclusion. But you think because we layed off guys like Andrew Mason, the franchise is hurting to pay signing bonuses? That side of the deal is hardly ever an issue...especially in Denver. And don't forget...all signing bonus money is is guaranteed cash. You can spread that out over the players contract so you don't have to pay it up front. Denver is fine financially

Lonestar
02-14-2009, 12:28 AM
I can see now how you might come to that conclusion. But you think because we layed off guys like Andrew Mason, the franchise is hurting to pay signing bonuses? That side of the deal is hardly ever an issue...especially in Denver. And don't forget...all signing bonus money is is guaranteed cash. You can spread that out over the players contract so you don't have to pay it up front. Denver is fine financially


yes some can be be spread out, roster bonus, performance one..

but signing bonuses are due today when the sign they get the check or shortly thereafter and then it can be spread over the life of the contract for CAP purposes only..

But it is 5-15 million that is gone from Pat checking account when they sign the contract hence called a signing bonus..

Why do you suppose that Ricky Williams and Jake Plummer had to pay back their signing bonus.. Because they got it upfront..

While you may think it is all fie they like you have to live within your means, if you take out a loan you have to be ablet to pay it back... If they know what their income is going to be from TV contracts and ticket sales they can budget it out to be paid as they get it OR take loans to bridge the short fall..

I hope that makes more sense.. Pats expenses went up over the past couple of years and his revenue has not kept pace.. Or he is tired to spending every dime that comes in the door and wants to keep a few for himself.. after all he should be entitled to a return on his invested dollars.

just like I expect a return on the savings I have in the bank.. all $250. of it..

In his case I suspect it was more like $250,000,000.00..

WARHORSE
02-14-2009, 01:55 AM
yes some can be be spread out, roster bonus, performance one..

but signing bonuses are due today when the sign they get the check or shortly thereafter and then it can be spread over the life of the contract for CAP purposes only..


But it is 5-15 million that is gone from Pat checking account when they sign the contract hence called a signing bonus..

Why do you suppose that Ricky Williams and Jake Plummer had to pay back their signing bonus.. Because they got it upfront..

While you may think it is all fie they like you have to live within your means, if you take out a loan you have to be ablet to pay it back... If they know what their income is going to be from TV contracts and ticket sales they can budget it out to be paid as they get it OR take loans to bridge the short fall..

I hope that makes more sense.. Pats expenses went up over the past couple of years and his revenue has not kept pace.. Or he is tired to spending every dime that comes in the door and wants to keep a few for himself.. after all he should be entitled to a return on his invested dollars.

just like I expect a return on the savings I have in the bank.. all $250. of it..

In his case I suspect it was more like $250,000,000.00..


Ok JRWIZ, youre off track here.

Signing bonus money is NOT 'due today' upon signing the contract or shortly thereafter. Signing bonus monies can be paid out over 10 years if they want, it depends on what the player and the organization agree upon. It basically is guaranteed money, but it does not have to be paid immediately. Also, salaries can be guaranteed as well, adding to the 'guaranteed total money' of any given contract.


Also, the Broncos brought in more money in just stadium revenues last year than they ever have in the history of their franchise. Last year, the Broncos stadium revenue jumped to $226 million dollars. Thats up from the $212 million from the year before. It was $99 million in 1999, and then $171 million in 2003, and then $207 million in 2006.

Thats not counting other sources of income which are diversified and include television monies.

While operating income has dropped over the last few years calculating stadium revenues vs operating expenses only, it still leaves huge profits from television revenues, and other diversified team sources of income.

From 1999 to 2008, the operating income has fluctuated as follows:

99- 5 million
00- 11 million
01- 6 million
02- 11 million
03- 49 million
04- 23 million
05- 49 million
06- 27 million
07- 16 million
08- 19 million

You can view alot of that from winning seasons.


This is not about whether the Broncos have the money. This is about Pat Bowlen making more money than the next NFL owner.
And since they all share television generated monies for the most part, the difference comes in stadium revenues.

Coming off terrible seasons, the Broncos revenue is jumping every year.

Just think what it means for the Broncos to win the superbowl.

If someone wants to know what that means to an NFL team, simply look at the Colts, the Pats and the Ravens.

At one time some of the worse franchises.........now near the top of the league.

We have the money.

We arent even WINNING and we are top 11 of the most valuable sports franchises on the planet. Those of the NFL.

So do you really think Bowlen has qualms about spending the money to get a superbowl here?

Fat chance.

He doesnt want to spend ignorantly, but if the superbowl is the prize, it is in his financial interest to spend the money.

In 2008, San Fran, Oakland and Minnesota were in last place for team stadium revenues, etc.

Didnt you notice who spent all the money in FAgency?


The Broncos can spend.

Will we spend foolishly? Hopefully not.

Once again, I think we will play the middle of the pack.

Lonestar
02-14-2009, 03:51 AM
Q: What are the chances and what would it take for the Broncos to sign a high profile free agent like Ray Lewis or Terrell Suggs?
A: When you talk about free agency, it's really a two-tiered question. The first is salary cap space.
And with the cap scheduled to be $123 million per team, it shouldn't be that big an issue for any team in the league, except perhaps the Jets, who have $130 million committed for salaries in 2009 at the moment - that can be adjusted some with some cuts and re-negotiations -- and are leveraged pretty badly in the coming seasons with their spending spree last March.
The Colts also currently have just over $130 million committed to contracts in 2009. On Feb. 27, however, when free agency opens teams only have to count their top 51 salaries to be under the cap so most teams won't have any problem.
The Broncos currently have $114,630,341 committed for contracts in 2009, but have more than 51 players under contract.
That, though, brings us to the second tier. And that's cash. It takes cash for the up-front signing bonuses, it takes cash to lure top-tier free agents and the Broncos don't have piles of cash at the moment.And judging from the conversations I've had with plenty of general managers and personnel executives around the league, a lot of teams are saying they're feeling the cash pinch right now. Baseball free agency has been slow all winter because of it and other than the elite, top free agents, it looks like it will be slowed than usual in the NFL as well.
Teams have said this before, though, and run out in the first 48 hours of free agency and spent like crazy. But this year does have a different vibe, especially with teams having laid off office personnel over the past month.
So the Broncos will likely participate in free agency, but they'll likely look for players who fit the cost structure they want and they may wait a little bit until after the initial rush dies down to get a productive player who may not have gotten the action he expected when he hit the market.
Players like Albert Haynesworth, who has already said he wants to be the most highly paid defensive player in the league, and even Suggs may not fit the financial structure the Broncos are staring at right now.
Also Mike Shanahan is still on the books for $7 million this season and defensive coordinator Bob Slowik is on for over $1 million as well. When the Broncos fired Shanahan and his staff they not only made a commitment to change, but a commitment to pay the financial price of that as well since all of Shanahan's assistants had at least one year left on their deals.
The Broncos are responsible for that amount even if the coach gets another job, but his new contract doesn't equal what the Broncos were paying him. So the Broncos would have to pay the difference. The Broncos, for example, are still scheduled to pay part of Scott O'Brien's salary even though he took a job as the Patriots special teams coach.
The two teams can argue about the difference, and even go as far as getting an arbitrator to decide, but the Broncos will be paying some of O'Brien's salary no matter what.
There are also other former Broncos assistants who did not yet get jobs so the Broncos will have to pay as well. So that's a lot of salary out the door before you even start talking about players.
They do have some roster bonuses due in March to players like Dewayne Robertson ($4 million), Niko Koutouvides ($1.78 million) and Champ Bailey (just over $2 million), but it looks like Bailey would be the only one in that group assured of receiving the bonus. With a cap figure of $13.688 million for '09 the Broncos could try to re-negotiate something with Bailey, but he will be around.
Robertson and Koutouvides, as well as safety Marquand Manuel, are all in that group of defensive veterans (Marlon McCree, Karl Paymah, and Kenny Peterson are all unrestricted free ahents) that could find themselves out when the team does start formally trimming its roster to get ready for free agency and the offseason program.
The Broncos had negotiated some clauses in Robertson's contract that would have guaranteed part of a roster bonus if he reached certain playing time marks. The guaranteed part of the roster bonus would have maxed out at $10 million if he had played 80 percent of the team's snaps and it would have been $8 million guaranteed for 75 percent of the snaps, $7 million guaranteed for 70 percent, $5 million guaranteed for 65 percent.
That's just the guaranteed part, but none of it is now a concern for the Broncos since Robertson didn't play enough snaps to engage any of the guarantees. He also didn't play enough for the Broncos to have to surrender a draft pick in the trade that brought him to Denver.
The Broncos will have some dead money against the salary cap - cap charges for players no longer on the roster -- to deal with if they release some veteran players. A player like Koutouvides, for example, got a $2 million signing bonus, so he would count after he is gone if he is released.
It will be intriguing to see how the Broncos handle linebacker Jamie Winborn as well. Winborn and new defensive coordinator Mike Nolan did not see eye to eye when Winborn was with the 49ers and Nolan was the team's head coach.
Nolan actually kicked Winborn out of the team's practice complex just before trading him to Jacksonville in 2005. Winborn has always said it took him years to rebuild his reputation and contends he was never given a clear answer as to what he did wrong with the 49ers.
Winborn has one year left on a two-year contract he signed before last season.
But, in short, any Broncos defensive player not named Champ Bailey or D.J. Williams is up for debate at this point. The turnover on defense is also still expected to be far higher than on offense.
In terms of offensive players, certainly center Casey Wiegmann, who started every game and does not have a contract for 2009, needs some attention. The team will have to get him in with a new deal if he wants to play - he has told teammates he does - and the Broncos will also have to decide if wide receiver Brandon Marshall has shown enough maturity to get the new long-term deal he covets.
Marshall is set to head into the last year of his original deal.
Also, because of the Broncos were facing a bit of a cash crunch in other years when they spent big in free agency, they do also have some players set to receive some deferred money in March.
Dre' Bly is due a $3 million deferred payment March 31 and Daniel Graham is due a $2 million deferred payment on that same date. That's more cash already accounted for when the Broncos start looking for the bottom line in all of this.
One contract that won't need much attention this time around is Cutler's. He did earn some performance bonuses this past season -- he has a $100,000 Pro Bowl bonus in each year of the contract he signed in 2006 so earned that this year and he also had a $1.95 million bonus in each of the first five years of the deal for a top-five finish in any major passing category and he was third in passing yards. He also had a $3 million bonus for any two years in which he has 60 percent playing time - he cleared that in 2007 and 2008.
But Cutler isn't due a big roster bonus the team would have to look at until 2010 -- $4 million - and 2011 -- $12 million. But 2011 is the last year of the deal and it's unlikely the Broncos would let him get into that season without doing some kind of extension.




Ok JRWIZ, youre off track here.

Signing bonus money is NOT 'due today' upon signing the contract or shortly thereafter. Signing bonus monies can be paid out over 10 years if they want, it depends on what the player and the organization agree upon. It basically is guaranteed money, but it does not have to be paid immediately. Also, salaries can be guaranteed as well, adding to the 'guaranteed total money' of any given contract.

Also, the Broncos brought in more money in just stadium revenues last year than they ever have in the history of their franchise. Last year, the Broncos stadium revenue jumped to $226 million dollars. Thats up from the $212 million from the year before. It was $99 million in 1999, and then $171 million in 2003, and then $207 million in 2006.

Thats not counting other sources of income which are diversified and include television monies.

While operating income has dropped over the last few years calculating stadium revenues vs operating expenses only, it still leaves huge profits from television revenues, and other diversified team sources of income.

From 1999 to 2008, the operating income has fluctuated as follows:

99- 5 million
00- 11 million
01- 6 million
02- 11 million
03- 49 million
04- 23 million
05- 49 million
06- 27 million
07- 16 million
08- 19 million

You can view alot of that from winning seasons.


This is not about whether the Broncos have the money. This is about Pat Bowlen making more money than the next NFL owner.
And since they all share television generated monies for the most part, the difference comes in stadium revenues.

Coming off terrible seasons, the Broncos revenue is jumping every year.

Just think what it means for the Broncos to win the superbowl.

If someone wants to know what that means to an NFL team, simply look at the Colts, the Pats and the Ravens.

At one time some of the worse franchises.........now near the top of the league.

We have the money.

We arent even WINNING and we are top 11 of the most valuable sports franchises on the planet. Those of the NFL.

So do you really think Bowlen has qualms about spending the money to get a superbowl here?

Fat chance.

He doesnt want to spend ignorantly, but if the superbowl is the prize, it is in his financial interest to spend the money.

In 2008, San Fran, Oakland and Minnesota were in last place for team stadium revenues, etc.

Didnt you notice who spent all the money in FAgency?


The Broncos can spend.

Will we spend foolishly? Hopefully not.

Once again, I think we will play the middle of the pack.

Please note your ORIGINAL post in another thread..

Your correct about Signing bonuses while they could be spread over the life of the contract I think it is very rare to do.. even though it is guaranteed money.. For the most part agents WANT there cut up front and the players want to spend or invest the rest of it for obvious reasons..

as for the rest of your post it is Pats money how or where he wished to spend it is HIS decision.. Unless your privy to his P&L statement and know when those loans are due I'd guess he did not cut staff because they were over staffed.. But for a reason..

So I'll go out on a limb here and say the chances of signing alot of top FA high priced ones are slim and none..

I'll further say that most of our new players this year will come via the draft, UDFA and we just might see some of last years skells still on the payroll next season until we can work the rookies in and draft more for 2010..

WARHORSE
02-14-2009, 05:28 AM
Please note your ORIGINAL post in another thread..


While that is my post, those are not my words, but the words of a reporter. While he is saying 'up front signing bonuses', he isnt talking about the entire signing bonus, and if he is, he doesnt understand what hes talking about. So Im assuming, that hes speaking about the amounts of cash in general that needs to be generated in order to cash signing bonus checks...................as well as ALL the salaries of the players which dictates 'CASH' as well.

Your correct about Signing bonuses while they could be spread over the life of the contract I think it is very rare to do.. even though it is guaranteed money.. For the most part agents WANT there cut up front and the players want to spend or invest the rest of it for obvious reasons..

Actually, for the big money contracts, its more the norm. How much the agents get out of each installment comes through the agreement between player and agent beforehand.

as for the rest of your post it is Pats money how or where he wished to spend it is HIS decision.. Unless your privy to his P&L statement and know when those loans are due I'd guess he did not cut staff because they were over staffed.. But for a reason..

Operating income is basically profit. And those statements can be had by forbes. So as I said, the operating income for just the stadium revenues shows profit every year since 1999 which is the earliest that Ive seen listed. As for cutting staff.........he said he wanted to streamline his org..............much like the Pats........who have been winning.

So I'll go out on a limb here and say the chances of signing alot of top FA high priced ones are slim and none..

The Broncos will sign what they deem wise. ALOT of high priced ones? Id say nobody is going to do that. If the Broncos want Peppers, or Haynesworth, or Asomugha ...........they will have no problem with cash flow or any other reason, they will sign them. It all depends on whether they think its a good BUSINESS decision, dont you think?




I'll further say that most of our new players this year will come via the draft, UDFA and we just might see some of last years skells still on the payroll next season until we can work the rookies in and draft more for 2010..

Well we all probably agree with you there. Since we have nine selections, unless we trade up, we will have nine drafted rookies along with whatever undrafted FAs we sign. I definitely dont think we will sign nine players in FAgency.:cool:




This is more about your statements that theres no money for free agent signings for the Broncos.


one more time there is very little if any money available for FA's..


It simply isnt true.

MHCBill
02-14-2009, 09:47 AM
No big FA spending please. Chris Canty from Dallasb to play 3-4 DE and then draft Raji or Tyson Jackson at #12. That makes 2/3 of the new DLine.Chris Canty wants Tommy Kelly money... 50 million.

No thanks for 37 tackles.

Northman
02-14-2009, 09:50 AM
Chris Canty wants Tommy Kelly money... 50 million.

No thanks for 37 tackles.

You got a link for that? Thats the first ive heard of Canty wanting that kind of money.

Nomad
02-14-2009, 10:01 AM
Chris Canty wants Tommy Kelly money... 50 million.

No thanks for 37 tackles.

He wants to play for Parcells anyway, I tend to agree with you! I read the piece on PFT!

elsid13
02-14-2009, 10:13 AM
Mike Wright (FA- PATS) DE/DT is more likely candidate then Canty. Plus he is a year younger.

SmilinAssasSin27
02-14-2009, 10:32 AM
Chris Canty wants Tommy Kelly money... 50 million.

No thanks for 37 tackles.

well he's not getting it. The entire league was laughing at the Faders for their overspending and Kelly's deal was at the top of the list.

Ziggy
02-14-2009, 11:18 AM
You got a link for that? Thats the first ive heard of Canty wanting that kind of money.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/football/cowboys/stories/021309dnspoarcher.bc1e965.html

The Cowboys have to decide how much he's worth. His agent, Brad Blank, said it would take a Tommy Kelly deal to get something done, which is around $18 million guaranteed.


I've seen it in other articles, but there's one off of the top of my head. Canty wants to get paid. Anyone who thinks we are going to get him cheap is fooling themselves.

WARHORSE
02-14-2009, 01:43 PM
Chris Canty is not the answer imo.

SmilinAssasSin27
02-14-2009, 01:45 PM
He's not "the answer". Noone ever said he was. He is, however, an experienced 3-4 DE who won't get as much bank as Ray Lewis, Suggs, Peppers. If someonen does pay him that much, good for him. I'l then turn and laugh hystericaly at any fans I know of the team who does.

Lonestar
02-14-2009, 01:55 PM
This is more about your statements that theres no money for free agent signings for the Broncos.




It simply isnt true.

there are many errors in your thought logic and business knowledge and right now I do not have time to discuss/debate them.. so for now we will have to agree to disagree..

I'm guessing that time will prove one of us wrong in whether we go after big name FA or not..

I hope it is me, but doubt it will be..

Being a business owner and working for a huge corporation for more than 20 years in an mid/upper management positions for most of that time, know budgets and deficits all to well..

BigAL56
02-14-2009, 02:01 PM
Jrwiz, I'm just not hearing that we are out of money anywhere else. ESPN, NFL network...those guys are saying we are fine. And not just pertaining to the cap.

We bring in more revenue that just about anyone else. It's not like it's coming out of his personal checking account.

Lonestar
02-14-2009, 02:10 PM
Jrwiz, I'm just not hearing that we are out of money anywhere else. ESPN, NFL network...those guys are saying we are fine. And not just pertaining to the cap.

We bring in more revenue that just about anyone else. It's not like it's coming out of his personal checking account.

Do you think he paid Cash for the franchise or his part of building the new stadium?

No he had to take loans for the money just like You or I would building a house..

He has to make payments to them as well as all the employees of the broncos and that also means for everyone down to the guy flipping hamburgers on game days..

Sure they make revenue for him but all of the cost of running th franchise from paper clips to Mikeys salary come out of those revenues..

They did not raise ticket prices this year but the salary cap went up some 15 or so mil.. not to mention the bonus money some are do for making he pro bowl or just being here on march 1st..

Yes this is one of the best franchises and he seems to be rolling in money.. But he also has bills to pay..

BigAL56
02-14-2009, 02:31 PM
....

so does every NFL team

SmilinAssasSin27
02-14-2009, 02:33 PM
I still preferto do it the way of Pitt and NE. An addition here and there, but no reaches and no big money on guys who aren't keys to success.

Lonestar
02-14-2009, 02:37 PM
I still preferto do it the way of Pitt and NE. An addition here and there, but no reaches and no big money on guys who aren't keys to success.

pretty much build it via the draft keep the good ones and get rid of the slackers..

Pick up an occcasional value here and there..

One of the reasons they have been to the big dance 5 of the last 10 years...

EMB6903
02-14-2009, 03:45 PM
I still preferto do it the way of Pitt and NE. An addition here and there, but no reaches and no big money on guys who aren't keys to success.

a lot of contributors on the Pats were brought in through FA/Trade.... Wes Welker, Randy Moss, Adalius Thomas, Mike Vrabel, Rodney Harrison all pro bowlers who didnt start their careers in New England Adalius Thomas was a big time FA that the pats went out and signed through FA..... I agree with you over building through draft but it doesnt hurt to spend money on a real threat, instead of going out and over paying for mediocre talent

elsid13
02-14-2009, 03:50 PM
a lot of contributors on the Pats were brought in through FA/Trade.... Wes Welker, Randy Moss, Adalius Thomas, Mike Vrabel, Rodney Harrison all pro bowlers who didnt start their careers in New England Adalius Thomas was a big time FA that the pats went out and signed through FA..... I agree with you over building through draft but it doesnt hurt to spend money on a real threat, instead of going out and over paying for mediocre talent

The FA you targeting better be a guy that coming into his own vs. an established name that past his prime.

broncohead
02-14-2009, 03:57 PM
Ward of the Giants would be a solid pickup imo. Can run between the tackles and sustain drives. How much will he cost do you think?

EMB6903
02-14-2009, 03:59 PM
ya Ward looks like a nice option Im just a little hesitent on getting a RB through FA, esspecially what happened with Henry.... But Ward is a tough runner and very versatile for the right price I Wouldnt mind him

SmilinAssasSin27
02-14-2009, 04:08 PM
Only one they spent money on though was Adalius. They stole Moss and Welker and other acquisitions were done smartly. That's my basic point. I'm not anti-free agent/trade. I'm anti-bidding war/overpaying for players in a team sport.

broncohead
02-14-2009, 04:16 PM
ya Ward looks like a nice option Im just a little hesitent on getting a RB through FA, esspecially what happened with Henry.... But Ward is a tough runner and very versatile for the right price I Wouldnt mind him

But Ward doesn't seem like he character concerns. What about injury history?

Lonestar
02-14-2009, 04:18 PM
Only one they spent money on though was Adalius. They stole Moss and Welker and other acquisitions were done smartly. That's my basic point. I'm not anti-free agent/trade. I'm anti-bidding war/overpaying for players in a team sport.

your on the money here they did the same thing with Rodney Harrison and quite a few others..

Perhaps it was scouting or after acquisitions coaching that saved there souls..

something we have lacked for nigh on a decade on D..

EMB6903
02-14-2009, 04:42 PM
Only one they spent money on though was Adalius. They stole Moss and Welker and other acquisitions were done smartly. That's my basic point. I'm not anti-free agent/trade. I'm anti-bidding war/overpaying for players in a team sport.


I dont think they got a steal for Welker.... Miami got a 2nd rounder in return

but it seems like Denver has gone that route with FA in the recent past and it hasnt panned out, bringing in run down/mediocre talent at best like Webster, Warren, Courtney Brown, Myers, Ekuban, Bly, Niko, Boss, Adams, Mccree, Colbert, Robertson and the list goes on and on.

These days you are gonna over pay for pretty much every starter in the league, Id just rather have them over pay for a talent I know offenses are gonna game plan around, a player who produces on a high level each week.

SmilinAssasSin27
02-14-2009, 04:44 PM
I dont think they got a steal for Welker.... Miami got a 2nd rounder in return


His numbers make him well worth a first round pick. NE made out. Anyone who disagrees is doing it for the sake of doing it.

EMB6903
02-14-2009, 04:52 PM
I wouldnt go that far.... Wes Welker is a hell of a player... but people do forget hes a slot WR.... not to mention he plays in a pass happy offense with a safety playing over the top of Moss 80% of the time

BigAL56
02-14-2009, 08:25 PM
Building through the draft is the way to go. Our problem is that we aren't very good at evaluating the defensive guys in the draft and we almost always end up with duds

SmilinAssasSin27
02-14-2009, 08:41 PM
Building through the draft is the way to go. Our problem is that we aren't very good at evaluating the defensive guys in the draft and we almost always end up with duds

SHANNY ended up w/ duds. He doesn't work here anymore.

Lonestar
02-14-2009, 09:17 PM
Building through the draft is the way to go. Our problem is that we aren't very good at evaluating the defensive guys in the draft and we almost always end up with duds



Do you have a mouse in your pocket?.. Because the is the only way WE would be in play..

mikey/TED/goodman's/ whomever did not have good record in picking D in the draft..

But when the vast majority of those picks were second day folks and not necessarily 3-4-5 rounders. I guess you can say D was not a high priority for mikey..

There is a new group now lets see how they do..

BigAL56
02-14-2009, 10:11 PM
Okay. As you come to know me, you are going to find I'm pretty optimistic with this team...

But that being said, it can't hurt to have a few proven guys on that defense

Lonestar
02-14-2009, 11:32 PM
Okay. As you come to know me, you are going to find I'm pretty optimistic with this team...

But that being said, it can't hurt to have a few proven guys on that defense


Your correct it would be nice. BUT HUGE money is key..

I hope for the best but bet/bank on the most likely..

As the one article said like last year they will be looking for value over BIG names..

Superchop 7
02-15-2009, 12:27 AM
I draft linebacker and safety with my first 4 picks.

I draft RB with my 5th.

I draft FB with my 6th.

The rest of the picks are for d-line projects, hope that one pans out.


I spend my FA $$ on 1 dominant d-lineman.


No, it doesn't fix everything, but what it does is take advantage of "this" class.

That's "if" I'm a GM.

Since I'm not.

I do whatever it takes to get Curry. (as a fan)

Magnificent Seven
02-15-2009, 01:07 AM
They better draft Rey Manugula. Broncos need a stud LB from USC!

BigAL56
02-15-2009, 01:23 AM
man, I'm loving being back. Excuse me for posting so much...it's just been awhile and living in San Diego, there are not too many fans to talk football with that understand it. (Most San Diego folks starting watching football 4 years ago...)

Jrwiz, I was listening to NFL radio on sirius today and they said that an insider in the broncos organization said they might only retain 10 or so players from this defense. That is a scary amount of cuts...so obviously it's not going to be a lot of big names...but McDaniels said he is going to bring in at least one big name guy. I wonder who it'll be? I don't have a link...it's all from the radio today

Lonestar
02-15-2009, 01:33 AM
man, I'm loving being back. Excuse me for posting so much...it's just been awhile and living in San Diego, there are not too many fans to talk football with that understand it. (Most San Diego folks starting watching football 4 years ago...)

Jrwiz, I was listening to NFL radio on sirius today and they said that an insider in the broncos organization said they might only retain 10 or so players from this defense. That is a scary amount of cuts...so obviously it's not going to be a lot of big names...but McDaniels said he is going to bring in at least one big name guy. I wonder who it'll be? I don't have a link...it's all from the radio today


Frankly I do not see how they can keep that many UNLESS they plan on having a 4-3 while they transition to 3-4....

the only worthwhile Players I see are

Champ
DJ
Maybe
bly but he and Champ both need to take a contract re-do.

maybe camp fodder for the next couple of years because they are on CHEAP rookie contracts..
Doom for spot duty pass rush
Thomas
Crowder decent De that got into mikeys doghouse for whatever reason
Moss

these are included because I see a lot of potential yet very raw
Larsen
Woodyard
Barrett
Powell on PUP could be a run stuffer supreme..

hey that is almost ten..

Most of the DL is OK for 4-3 with coaching..


hey do not feel bad about posting.. I felt the same way living in El Paso the only NFL I got here for years was the oilers and cowgirls now it is the Texans and girls..

Until I found Mania in 2003 I had NO outside contact with the real world, and when we founded this spot we brought most of the great posters over here..

There are alot of great posters here but when Cugel, Omac, Boss, Dean, Coach, G~man, Top, Tned, Dread, Turf, Mtn man, RC (Do not mean to leave anyone out here) talk about football you need to listen.. they all know their stuff. Some Other football fans like KCL and Cincinnati used to be king also know their stuff but are always homers for their teams:D..

you have good ideas and are fresh and will fit in well....

BigAL56
02-15-2009, 02:52 AM
I've known some of those guys for years...I was a regular with them at Broncosfreak.com since '03 I think it was.

Anyway, back to the defense. How many players do we have on it right now? 24, 25? That's a massive amount of cuts

warcrychief
02-15-2009, 03:20 AM
I tell you what. Ever since you guys lost Al Wilson. Your defence has never been the same. Out of every one on your team, i hated playing against him because you know he was going to make game changing call. Thats where i see it all going down hill for that unit.

Magnificent Seven
02-15-2009, 04:11 AM
I tell you what. Ever since you guys lost Al Wilson. Your defence has never been the same. Out of every one on your team, i hated playing against him because you know he was going to game changing call. Thats where i see it all going down hill for that unit.

That's why we need to draft Rey Mauagula

BigAL56
02-15-2009, 05:13 AM
I tell you what. Ever since you guys lost Al Wilson. Your defence has never been the same. Out of every one on your team, i hated playing against him because you know he was going to make game changing call. Thats where i see it all going down hill for that unit.

You are absolutely correct. Coaching is not the problem of our defense. We keep bringing in new guys with the same result...I was one of the few saying our defense would drop considerably when he left, and I got slammed for it. You need a guy in the middle that sets the tone...both with his mouth and with his play. Rey could do that for us I think, but yes...losing Al Wilson hurt...bad

broncosinindy
02-15-2009, 09:22 AM
He's not "the answer". Noone ever said he was. He is, however, an experienced 3-4 DE who won't get as much bank as Ray Lewis, Suggs, Peppers. If someonen does pay him that much, good for him. I'l then turn and laugh hystericaly at any fans I know of the team who does.

He is a expirenced One Gap DE. The way i hear it we will run a Two Gap scheme. the differance is like asking a NT to do a UT's job. Two differant approaches to how they play. And to be frank and honest i dont think were gonna make the switch as it is.

SmilinAssasSin27
02-15-2009, 09:25 AM
If we only keep 10 defenders, I see it being:

Champ
DJ
Moss
Dumervil
Thomas
Larsen
Woodyard
Barrett
Bly
Hagan/Powell...and I'm not even sure about the last 2.

Could keep Crowder, but don't know if he fits. Robertson is too pricey. Jack???

I hope it's not Boss, Winborn, Webster, the 2 FA Safeties, or our 2 old DEs.

broncosinindy
02-15-2009, 09:31 AM
Frankly I do not see how they can keep that many UNLESS they plan on having a 4-3 while they transition to 3-4....

the only worthwhile Players I see are

Champ
DJ
Maybe
bly but he and Champ both need to take a contract re-do.

maybe camp fodder for the next couple of years because they are on CHEAP rookie contracts..
Doom for spot duty pass rush
Thomas
Crowder decent De that got into mikeys doghouse for whatever reason
Moss

these are included because I see a lot of potential yet very raw
Larsen
Woodyard
Barrett
Powell on PUP could be a run stuffer supreme..

hey that is almost ten..

Most of the DL is OK for 4-3 with coaching..


hey do not feel bad about posting.. I felt the same way living in El Paso the only NFL I got here for years was the oilers and cowgirls now it is the Texans and girls..

Until I found Mania in 2003 I had NO outside contact with the real world, and when we founded this spot we brought most of the great posters over here..

There are alot of great posters here but when Cugel, Omac, Boss, Dean, Coach, G~man, Top, Tned, Dread, Turf, Mtn man, RC (Do not mean to leave anyone out here) talk about football you need to listen.. they all know their stuff. Some Other football fans like KCL and Cincinnati used to be king also know their stuff but are always homers for their teams:D..

you have good ideas and are fresh and will fit in well....Deeply wounded here JR.. nah just razzing ya

broncosinindy
02-15-2009, 09:31 AM
I've known some of those guys for years...I was a regular with them at Broncosfreak.com since '03 I think it was.

Anyway, back to the defense. How many players do we have on it right now? 24, 25? That's a massive amount of cuts
Remember a few of those are FA. and most likely wont be retained.

SmilinAssasSin27
02-15-2009, 09:32 AM
He is a expirenced One Gap DE. The way i hear it we will run a Two Gap scheme. the differance is like asking a NT to do a UT's job. Two differant approaches to how they play. And to be frank and honest i dont think were gonna make the switch as it is.

I don't know when the decision ill be made for certain, but I think it hinges on a) how the draft/FA falls and b) how Moss and Doom do standing up. I think it's strictly a personnel issue right now and IMHO Shanny may have actually drafted/signed well for us as a 3-4 D. Problem is...he played a 4-3.

Doom and Moss have 3-4 OLB body types and got to the QB in college...Moss even in the pros. DJ, Larsen and Hagan at least fit the mold at ILB til the depth chart is filled out. Powell was a run stuffer a VT. I don't know if he translates to DE or DT if we switch, but we need to see what he can do for us before tossing him away. Thomas look like a potential fit for 3-4 DE. Barrett and Woody deserve a shot at Safety IMO. Not ideal and we definitely need talent upgrade/depth, but I see that we have a foundation...and a youthful one at that.

broncosinindy
02-15-2009, 09:34 AM
You are absolutely correct. Coaching is not the problem of our defense. We keep bringing in new guys with the same result...I was one of the few saying our defense would drop considerably when he left, and I got slammed for it. You need a guy in the middle that sets the tone...both with his mouth and with his play. Rey could do that for us I think, but yes...losing Al Wilson hurt...bad

I dissaggree. Coaching was a huge problem. along with talent. along with teh guys evaluating the talent. Changing schemes. In bates scheme the Ends were rush the QB first and play the run second. just a pity he cant do either-

broncosinindy
02-15-2009, 09:52 AM
I don't know when the decision ill be made for certain, but I think it hinges on a) how the draft/FA falls and b) how Moss and Doom do standing up. I think it's strictly a personnel issue right now and IMHO Shanny may have actually drafted/signed well for us as a 3-4 D. Problem is...he played a 4-3.

Doom and Moss have 3-4 OLB body types and got to the QB in college...Moss even in the pros. DJ, Larsen and Hagan at least fit the mold at ILB til the depth chart is filled out. Powell was a run stuffer a VT. I don't know if he translates to DE or DT if we switch, but we need to see what he can do for us before tossing him away. Thomas look like a potential fit for 3-4 DE. Barrett and Woody deserve a shot at Safety IMO. Not ideal and we definitely need talent upgrade/depth, but I see that we have a foundation...and a youthful one at that.Doom is a player and excels at getting to the QB. He iis still "considered" to short. I have concerns with his abiliity to backpedal in coverage. i think he maybe a little slow in the hips.
Moving to OLB would be a project. and if he shows any growth in the offseason he will stick simply because the guy is a warrior. Great determination. i looked up his 3 cone drill but i couldnt find it.:( I'm also a tad bit worried about his ability to play in space. I would also consider him at the inside linebacker spot. I've read it both ways, but i think it would be a SILB. i think it might be more natural for him as he would still get to rush the QB and would be asked to take on gaurds more. Essentially he would be attacking instead of retreating. i found a Awesome draft porfile on doom. really good indepth stuff.

http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/5527960/Elvis-Dumervil-Draft-Profile

To me moss just doesnt have it between the ears. I was really high on moss coming to denver but he isnt nasty enough, and IMO hasent taken his career serious enough at this point.

broncosinindy
02-15-2009, 09:54 AM
I don't know when the decision ill be made for certain, but I think it hinges on a) how the draft/FA falls and b) how Moss and Doom do standing up. I think it's strictly a personnel issue right now and IMHO Shanny may have actually drafted/signed well for us as a 3-4 D. Problem is...he played a 4-3.

Doom and Moss have 3-4 OLB body types and got to the QB in college...Moss even in the pros. DJ, Larsen and Hagan at least fit the mold at ILB til the depth chart is filled out. Powell was a run stuffer a VT. I don't know if he translates to DE or DT if we switch, but we need to see what he can do for us before tossing him away. Thomas look like a potential fit for 3-4 DE. Barrett and Woody deserve a shot at Safety IMO. Not ideal and we definitely need talent upgrade/depth, but I see that we have a foundation...and a youthful one at that.
Powells height may make him a NT. Traditionally you want your guys a tad bit taller on the end. and yes i aggree we need to check him out. He was highly regaurded coming out of college. and on his salary it would be a mistake to not even bring him into camp. much like i thought it was a mistake to not even kick the tires on aldridge this summer

Lonestar
02-15-2009, 02:32 PM
You are absolutely correct. Coaching is not the problem of our defense. We keep bringing in new guys with the same result...I was one of the few saying our defense would drop considerably when he left, and I got slammed for it. You need a guy in the middle that sets the tone...both with his mouth and with his play. Rey could do that for us I think, but yes...losing Al Wilson hurt...bad

from a Leadership point he was a huge lose as a player he stopped being a Tackling force a couple of years before after relying on bit hits to take down the runner.. with a lot of the time taking the hit and then getting 3-8 more yards...

Once he broke most of his fingers his tackling went down hill.. and there form the big hits which lead to his neck injury..

He was a great leader but ineffective as a player the last couple of years, mostly due to injuries..


Not sure in a 3-4 if the dominate MLB is the answer more than getting dominant NT, OLB and DE would.. but I could be worng here..

BigAL56
02-15-2009, 04:13 PM
It's the attitude and the holding each other accountable. We haven't had anybody do that well since Wilson. It usually starts with the guy calling plays in the huddle

broncohead
02-15-2009, 04:43 PM
An ILB won't be much use if the NT or at lease one of the DEs don't comand a double team. They will have a guard, tackle, or FB coming at them everyplay.

BigAL56
02-15-2009, 05:28 PM
agreed, both are of equal need.

Cugel
02-15-2009, 07:39 PM
Do you have a mouse in your pocket?.. Because the is the only way WE would be in play..

mikey/TED/goodman's/ whomever did not have good record in picking D in the draft..

But when the vast majority of those picks were second day folks and not necessarily 3-4-5 rounders. I guess you can say D was not a high priority for mikey..

There is a new group now lets see how they do..

That's what frustrated me so much with Shanny. He just ignored defense, especially defensive line year after year! And then he'd bring in Nikko Koutivides and give him millions and then watch as he sucked.

I think signing John Lynch really hurt the Broncos. It gave Shanahan the idea that he was some kind of genius who could dig through other teams' rubbish pile and find pro-bowl talent. He'd take a chance on older, injured players, players who underperformed with other teams, and somehow get some life out of them.

After all, it worked with Lynch, why not with the Browncos? And if he got one decent season out of the Browncos why not sign Jerry Rice, or DE Simeon Rice or DT Sam Adams, Jimmy Kennedy? If they don't work, how about DeWayne Robertson, after Detroit rejected a trade for him because he flunked the physical due to a degenerative "bone-on-bone" condition in both knees?

And then surely Boss Bailey and Marlon McCree and Nate Webster and Marquand Manuel were undervalued by their former teams! Just bring them to Denver, pay them millions of dollars and you can get a defense on the cheap! :coffee:

After all, they don't have to be great. They just have to be decent enough to hold up their end so his high-powered offense can get back on the field and score more points!

And any decent coaching job (Shanny told us) and he can get to 10-6 and a playoff berth. And if you get into the playoffs, "anything can happen."

That was his philosophy. "10-6 and anything can happen."

It's just flat totally wrong, that's all. You need a solid defense to prosper in the NFL and he never bothered to create one. He was always too concerned with his offense. He wanted a run first offense to take time off the clock, keep the other team off the field and protect his defense.

After all, that's how he won 2 SB, right? So it must continue to work, even after he no longer had John Elway and Terrell Davis! :coffee:

BigAL56
02-15-2009, 07:59 PM
He just ignored defense, especially defensive line year after year!


Well, that's just not really true. He def payed attention, he just didn't fix it the right way. Look at our starting D-Line the last six years...it looks a lot different over the years. One of the (if not the) most changed positions on the team over that time period. I mean, we tried that whole Cleveland Brown line...that didn't work. We tried drafting 3 guys in one year...and none of them panned out. We tried Dwyane Robertson...he didn't work. Shanny paid attention, he just could never find the right guys

Lonestar
02-15-2009, 08:09 PM
That's what frustrated me so much with Shanny. He just ignored defense, especially defensive line year after year! And then he'd bring in Nikko Koutivides and give him millions and then watch as he sucked.

I think signing John Lynch really hurt the Broncos. It gave Shanahan the idea that he was some kind of genius who could dig through other teams' rubbish pile and find pro-bowl talent. He'd take a chance on older, injured players, players who underperformed with other teams, and somehow get some life out of them.

After all, it worked with Lynch, why not with the Browncos? And if he got one decent season out of the Browncos why not sign Jerry Rice, or DE Simeon Rice or DT Sam Adams, Jimmy Kennedy? If they don't work, how about DeWayne Robertson, after Detroit rejected a trade for him because he flunked the physical due to a degenerative "bone-on-bone" condition in both knees?

And then surely Boss Bailey and Marlon McCree and Nate Webster and Marquand Manuel were undervalued by their former teams! Just bring them to Denver, pay them millions of dollars and you can get a defense on the cheap! :coffee:

After all, they don't have to be great. They just have to be decent enough to hold up their end so his high-powered offense can get back on the field and score more points!

And any decent coaching job (Shanny told us) and he can get to 10-6 and a playoff berth. And if you get into the playoffs, "anything can happen."

That was his philosophy. "10-6 and anything can happen."

It's just flat totally wrong, that's all. You need a solid defense to prosper in the NFL and he never bothered to create one. He was always too concerned with his offense. He wanted a run first offense to take time off the clock, keep the other team off the field and protect his defense.

After all, that's how he won 2 SB, right? So it must continue to work, even after he no longer had John Elway and Terrell Davis! :coffee:

it started on Defense with I think Neil smith, Alfred Williams and romo..

John Lynch was just one of the latest success stories. and everyone know he was the leader of the backfield and then the LBs also when AL Wilson went down..

the problem at that point we were so far in the hole it was hail Mary time..

We all heard his speech about Niko saying he would have been starting had it not been for the all pro in front of him.. holding him back as for the two safety morons from last year IMO he knew that he was not going to get another free pass after the season if they did not go to the play offs..

There is little doubt in my mind that Pat sat down with him and gave him a fear of God speech after the Bates fiasco settled out..

I suspect either he did not believe Pat would make some changes and his friendship would save him or Pat just threatened to bring in another Bates type if the Defense did not straighten up..

I think it is a foregone conclusion the hiring Bates was not Mikeys idea..