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Cugel
02-13-2009, 11:00 AM
There was something MUG said that got buried in the other thread on the Goodman's firing that's worth evaluating more closely because it throws a light on things that I hadn't considered before. I thought a new thread on this would be useful:

Here's a thought for you guys:

Josh McDaniels began his NFL career in the scouting department. Belichick said he was excellent in that role before progressing as a defensive assistant and then QBs coach and OC.

Scouting player personnel is how Josh McDaniels got into the NFL in the first place. What you have now is a head coach that is going to hand pick his own groceries. Is that good? Bill Parcels thinks so.

Xanders will handle the business side of things.

How Things Ran Under Shanahan: First we have to remember that Shanahan ran a very tight ship. He stomped ruthlessly on any independence in just doing things without his knowledge or consent. Had his finger in every pie.

Jim Goodman was a former long-time scout, and when Shanahan fired Ted Sundquist and brought him to be the director of player personnel he was appointing a head-scout and talent evaluator, and NOT a man who had any real knowledge of or experience in team administration.

What Goodman had was twenty years of going on long drives around to colleges in places like Kansas and Alabama and watching players, talking to coaches, breaking down film and being able to evaluate player talent.

That's a skill that takes a LOT of tedious time to accomplish.

But, he had no particular demonstrated ability in running an organization. Under Shanahan he didn't need it.

Meanwhile Brian Xanders was brought in by Shanahan in April 2008 because he DID have that executive experience with the Falcons. He could handle the executive functions that Ted Sundquist formerly had, such as crunching the salary cap numbers and handling routine administrative matters so the Head Coach didn't have to worry about them -- all under the watchful eye of the Supreme Boss, Mike Shanahan.

Now, Xanders has some former experience with the Falcons in player evaluation and it sounds from what Bowlen said that he'll have some say in player personnel decisions.

Enter Pat Bowlen

Bowlen's explanation of the GM decisions is worth examining too.


"The decision to make Brian Xanders the general manager (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2009/feb/12/xander-appointed-gm-broncos/), reporting back to me, was an important decision," Bowlen said. "It was not going to be a workable situation between Jeff (Goodman) and Brian. And I think they would say the same thing."

Xanders did not return a message and the Goodmans could not be reached for comment.

Bowlen said Xanders will oversee all of the team's player personnel operations, including college scouting, pro personnel and contract negotiations.

He also will oversee the team's video, equipment, grounds and training staffs.

So, Bowlen took a closer look at the situation and realized that the Goodmans really weren't executive material. He couldn't see them running the Broncos organization. Xanders on the other hand had that administrative experience with Atlanta for 14 years.

In an ideal world, you'd keep both, they'd all work together and the Goodman's would go back to working as head-scouts and player talent evaluators, reporting directly to Xanders.

However, that would mean Bowlen was promoting Xanders and demoting Goodman. Clearly, that wasn't going to work.

Then there was the important factor that MUG points out, that McDaniels has player-personnel experience himself. While he won't be directly evaluating players, he DOES know what kind of players he wants in the draft.

So, Bowlen wants HIS voice to be heard on player matters and not drowned in a chorus of managers.

We can see that MUG was right in that Bowlen wants McDaniels to have more say in player personnel decisions, and not just be the coach.



Bowlen said McDaniels will not report to Xanders but to Bowlen, and Xanders will report to Bowlen as well.

It puts Bowlen clearly at the top of the team's corporate flowchart, with the coach clearly directing the team's coaching staff and on-field work with a general manager coordinating scouting and personnel.

Asked if Xanders' promotion made him the team's top football executive, Bowlen responded, "That's safe to say, but the head coach is also a football executive. And they're working together, but Josh has a big job ahead of him and is obviously a very significant part of the organization and I want to make sure we understand that."

Asked who would make the final decision if there was no consensus on a player, Bowlen said, "There won't be any ties."

"I like the idea of having of having a general manager report directly to me and he has a good relationship with the new head coach as well," Bowlen said. "I don't know that I'll suddenly become a great personnel guy, watching film all the time. But I'll listen to Brian, I'll listen to anyone in the back of the building (the personnel and scouting departments) and I'll listen to the head coach.

CONCLUSION:

1. Bowlen is taking a more direct role. He's now the Broncos top executive, not just the guy who writes Shanahan's pay-checks. He's going to make the decisions if there's a conflict between McDaniels & Xander.

2. He wanted to end the Shanahan food-chain with all coaches & the GM reporting directly to Mike and streamline the organization with HIMSELF at the top.

3. Xanders wasn't picked as GM because he's better at evaluating player talent than the Goodmans. He isn't.

4. Xanders WAS picked because he has vastly more experience and knowledge of how to run the organization administratively than the Goodmans.

5. He might have kept the Goodmans, but that would have mean promoting Xanders over their heads, which would have caused relationship problems. It would also have diminished McDaniels' role in player evaluations and Bowlen wanted the guy who has to coach the players to have some responsibility in selecting them.

All in all, we won't know if this makes the team more effective. It's probably a wash. They lose Jim Goodman, who really was experienced in player evaluations. But, they now have an organization that's less unwieldy and with clearer lines of responsibility.

We'll see how this all pans out over the next 2 years. But, if the draft doesn't work out, Bowlen will know who to blame. It won't be a committee running things. :coffee:

LRtagger
02-13-2009, 11:11 AM
Good theory. You have to wonder if it took this long to make the move because Bowlen was trying to negotiate the demotion with the Goodmans. They may have just not come to an agreement and decided to part ways.

NightTrainLayne
02-13-2009, 11:25 AM
Well done. Very well reasoned Cugel. :salute:

broncofaninfla
02-13-2009, 11:37 AM
Good stuff. I'm happy for Xanders but pissed we got rid of the Goodman team.

Dortoh
02-13-2009, 11:49 AM
Interesting theory but IMO the timing tells me something nasty went down. You dont wait till right before the start of FA to make this move.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
02-13-2009, 11:57 AM
I think you hit the nail on the head Cugel.


But on top of that, I think this makes more sense. We've all heard the "too many chiefs in the kitchin" analogy. That's what we effectively had. I applaud Bowlen for ending that before it really got started.

We now have a complete break from the Shanahan-led Front Office. We have known for YEARS that Shanahan makes all the decisions and that he placed "Yes Men" in positional roles of power but withheld all final say for himself.

Some of us are shocked the Goodman's were let go because of the relatively successful drafts as of late. Well, how much influence did they really have. And how successful really were the drafts?

Apparently, to Bowlen, the answer is that they weren't that integral to the process. His goal is to win Super Bowls, he's not going to fire people that would further that goal, or hinder it.

BigDaddyBronco
02-13-2009, 12:11 PM
The only thing I hope here is that Bowlen doesn't get too hands on like a Jerry Jones or Al Davis. We all know that doesn't work.

broncofaninfla
02-13-2009, 12:42 PM
The only thing I hope here is that Bowlen doesn't get too hands on like a Jerry Jones or Al Davis. We all know that doesn't work.

I agree, seems like a lot of chest thumping going on with Bowlen lately. The timing has me concerned as well. Seems like Bowlen should have fired them when he fired Shanny. It wouldn't surprise me if something went down behind the scenes.

Northman
02-13-2009, 12:47 PM
I agree, seems like a lot of chest thumping going on with Bowlen lately. The timing has me concerned as well. Seems like Bowlen should have fired them when he fired Shanny. It wouldn't surprise me if something went down behind the scenes.

I agree. Sounds like he was fine with them until just recently.

Cugel
02-13-2009, 01:40 PM
I think you hit the nail on the head Cugel.
But on top of that, I think this makes more sense. We've all heard the "too many chiefs in the kitchin" analogy. That's what we effectively had. I applaud Bowlen for ending that before it really got started.

We now have a complete break from the Shanahan-led Front Office. We have known for YEARS that Shanahan makes all the decisions and that he placed "Yes Men" in positional roles of power but withheld all final say for himself.

Some of us are shocked the Goodman's were let go because of the relatively successful drafts as of late. Well, how much influence did they really have. And how successful really were the drafts?

Apparently, to Bowlen, the answer is that they weren't that integral to the process. His goal is to win Super Bowls, he's not going to fire people that would further that goal, or hinder it.

You're right that it makes more sense MUG. Whether it works out to be better we won't know for a while of course.

As for Shanahan's "yes men" Sundquist was a TOTAL "yes man" -- until he started to make some decisions for himself without clearing them with Shanny and was immediately canned.

Goodman didn't have to be a "yes man" because his responsibility was ONLY in evaluating player talent. He wasn't a real GM, but a head-scout. He had virtually NO organizational responsibility. Shanahan had that under control, and where he needed help after firing Sundquist he brought in Xander.

I don't believe though that Bowlen disparaged the Goodmans' influence on the draft. Rather it was a question of "who do you keep?"

Xander is a respected manager who was receiving a lot of attention from other teams. The Rams were reportedly interested in hiring him. So, if Bowlen left Xanders in his current role as Assistant GM, really responsible for organization, salary cap, and managing the training and facilities, Xander wouldn't stay with the team for long. He might be hired by a team like the Rams this season, or he could be gone next year.

Meanwhile Bowlen obviously concluded that Jim Goodman wasn't the executive he wanted to run his organization. Goodman's a glorified scout: which is great come draft day, but not so great when it comes to keeping the entire organization smoothly functioning, as well as making sure that the salary cap is managed properly (something Shanahan had tremendous difficulty doing, and which contributed directly to Shanny's firing).

So, if one of them had to go, Goodman was the only possible choice.

He (Bowlen) could have hired a GM from somewhere else, but that would mean total disruption at the worst possible time. Xander's already familiar with everything and has been working on the draft now for months.

Then, as you pointed out, Bowlen thinks that McDaniels should have some say in player personnel decisions:


Asked if Xanders' promotion made him the team's top football executive, Bowlen responded, "That's safe to say, but the head coach is also a football executive. And they're working together, but Josh has a big job ahead of him and is obviously a very significant part of the organization and I want to make sure we understand that."


That's saying directly, "I want McDaniels to have significant input on player personnel decisions." So you were pretty much right on the button with that one.

Maybe he didn't feel that would work out with Jim Goodman calling all the shots.

I think Shanahan was under tremendous pressure the last 3 years to:

1. Significantly upgrade the draft and FA performance.
2. Get the salary cap under control.
3. Stop spending big $ on FA busts.

Shanahan did improve some, but not enough to satisfy Bowlen.

Also, Bowlen was clearly frustrated that there was no direct roll for him in running his own team. He doesn't want to be a meddler like Jerry Jones, Al Davis or Dan Snyder, (he said "I certainly hope not!" when asked), but he DOES think that after more than 20 years in the business he can play a bigger role than just signing checks.

Now he'll make the final decisions whenever there's a dispute, and it sounds like he's inclined to give McDaniel a lot of power in choosing the players he wants.

Dr Velcro
02-13-2009, 01:55 PM
What happened?


I'll tell you what happened.....


Chocolate.......
http://www.thehealthculture.com/img/dove-dark.jpg


Mmmmmm.....

Chocolate happened.......

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/img/health/chocolate061204.jpg

Buff
02-13-2009, 01:55 PM
I agree, seems like a lot of chest thumping going on with Bowlen lately. The timing has me concerned as well. Seems like Bowlen should have fired them when he fired Shanny. It wouldn't surprise me if something went down behind the scenes.

I'm not concerned at all... He's putting the guys in place that he thinks can restore the team to greatness... He let Mike run the show for over a decade, and was about as hands off as an owner can be while still being actively involved in day to day operations. So one offseason of upheivel is nothing in the grand scheme of things.

fcspikeit
02-13-2009, 02:32 PM
So Bowlen is making this up as he goes along?

First he thought it would work keeping everyone on staff, then he realized that wasn't the best way to go about it?

I'm sorry but that makes me question even the Shanahan firing.. If he knew there had to be a change, one would think he would have had a plan. If he is changing his plan mid stream, that tells me he wasn't sure how he wanted things to run at the top. If he did have a clear plan of what he wanted, what changed his mind on how things should be ran? Was it Mckid or Xman? It clearly wasn't the Goodmans because he fired them.

If he wanted a clear cut GM from the start, he could have either hired Xman or went after Pioli right from the start, then he could have went after McDaniels. At that point, the Goodmans could have stayed on in a scouting role or left the team. Beings he promoted Goodman, he had little choice but to let him go because you can't promote someone then demote them 2 weeks later because you changed your mind.

If Bowlen wanted final say on all personal decisions, why didn't he set that up from the start? I'm just sayen' It doesn't sound like that is what he had envisioned when he fired Shanahan. Now he will be forced to brake all ties concerning the talent... If he is to be that guy, he will have no choice but to take an active role in scouting the players.. Either that or it will just be eeny, meeny, miney, mo.

My biggest problem isn't even the fact the Goodmans got fired. It's the manner in how this all played out. When he brought in Mckid, what was the agreement? If he agreed to a 3 headed monster with him having 33% of the vote, that is no longer the case. Assuming Bowlen isn't going to take the needed time be able to make an educated decision on players. He will have to give final say to either Mckid or Xman. That can work but if it's Mckid, it wont be any different then when Shanahan were here. If it's Xman, did Mckid agree to that when Pat talked him into coming here?

IMO, Bowlen should of had all this worked out before starting this proses. I don't like the fact he doesn't really seem to know how he wants things to run at the top.

fcspikeit
02-13-2009, 02:38 PM
A Question, from everything we have read, who would you say should get the blame for bad drafts and FA moves in the future?

I would say Bowlen because he has final say. Would you agree with that?

IMO, that is a scary thought... He better have a better football mind and the ability to see past all the hype then does Al Davis and Jerry Jones.

Northman
02-13-2009, 02:39 PM
Dont know. I have to wait and see how much power McD and Xman have.

fcspikeit
02-13-2009, 02:56 PM
Dont know. I have to wait and see how much power McD and Xman have.

How will we know? A player might bust and we won't really know who wanted the guy.. For all we know, maybe Xman didn't want him and Mckid did or vise verse. Maybe they both agreed on the guy and should be to blame?

This isn't about 1st round picks, I'm sure they can agree on that. We are talking about the later round guys. It's hard to make up your mind and agree before the draft starts who you will take in rounds 3+. Guys fall, sleepers are gone. Someone has to make those decisions. If a stud RB falls to the 3rd round, where you were going to take the best LB on your board, Who gets to make that call to take the value pick? Who gets to decide how much importance you put on need vs BPA?

Out of the 3 guys we have, Xman, Mckid, and Bowlen, who would you say is the most qualified to make that decision?

I hope to hell pat has this all figured out.. He better not be living in a dream world where his GM and HC will always want the same guys. They better at least know who has final say on personal decisions going in. If it isn't all laid out, and agreed to, it can only lead to resentment and trouble at the top..

Northman
02-13-2009, 03:07 PM
How will we know? A player might bust and we won't really know who wanted the guy.. For all we know, maybe Xman didn't want him and Mckid did or vise verse. Maybe they both agreed on the guy and should be to blame?

This isn't about 1st round picks, I'm sure they can agree on that. We are talking about the later round guys. It's hard to make up your mind and agree before the draft starts who you will take in rounds 3+. Guys fall, sleepers are gone. Someone has to make those decisions. If a stud RB falls to the 3rd round, where you were going to take the best LB on your board, Who gets to make that call to take the value pick? Who gets to decide how much importance you put on need vs BPA?

Out of the 3 guys we have, Xman, Mckid, and Bowlen, who would you say is the most qualified to make that decision?

I hope to hell pat has this all figured out.. He better not be living in a dream world where his GM and HC will always want the same guys. They better at least know who has final say on personal decisions going in. If it isn't all laid out, and agreed to, it can only lead to resentment and trouble at the top..


In the long run Pat will not be much different than Mike. Shit rolls downhill and should McD and Xman fail at drafting or even winning i dont see Pat taking ownership other than saying he hired the wrong guy.

Dortoh
02-13-2009, 03:10 PM
Brian Xanders and Jeff Goodman did not see eye to eye.

And no I dont have a link dont ask :lol:

dogfish
02-13-2009, 03:19 PM
i think you're probably correct for the most part cug, although i still suspect that something else must have happened behind the scenes to make us switch course so drastically after just promoting the guys a few weeks ago. . . .




3. Xanders wasn't picked as GM because he's better at evaluating player talent than the Goodmans. He isn't.

4. Xanders WAS picked because he has vastly more experience and knowledge of how to run the organization administratively than the Goodmans.


^^ this is the part that concerns me ^^



bean counters aren't hard to find, and they don't have nearly the same value as good talent evaluators, who ARE hard to find. . . IMO this looks like a decision intended to make the denver broncos a better/more successful business, not a better/more successful football team. . .

Traveler
02-13-2009, 03:31 PM
Though Xanders does have experience in player evaluation, Bowlen said he expects to hire someone else — likely someone with prior connections to either Xanders or McDaniels — to be in charge of scouting.

Quote taken from DP article...

If Bowlen does hire someone as a player evaluation exec, this move truly makes more sense.

Dortoh
02-13-2009, 03:34 PM
Broncos shake up front office
By Lindsay H. Jones and Mike Klis
The Denver Post
POSTED: 02/13/2009 12:30:00 AM MST
UPDATED: 02/13/2009 12:56:11 AM MST


Brian Xanders (The Denver Post)
Pat Bowlen again has made a major change atop the Broncos organization.

Less than two months after Bowlen fired coach Mike Shanahan and hired Josh McDaniels, the team owner on Thursday appointed Brian Xanders as the team's sole general manager and fired Jim Goodman and Jeff Goodman.

The decision effectively disbands the three-man team that had been running the team's personnel department for the past year.

Jim Goodman had been the vice president of football operations and was in charge of player evaluation. Jeff Goodman, who is Jim's son, had shared the title of assistant general manager with Xanders for a year.

"Really, what I was interested in doing was resetting the way we do business around here," Bowlen said Thursday in a telephone interview. "Brian Xanders was what I considered a true general manager."

Xanders, 37, will be in charge of player personnel issues, including scouting and contract negotiations, though McDaniels will likely have the final say in selecting the roster. Bowlen said Xanders and McDaniels will independently report to him.

"We've really changed the complexion of this organization," Bowlen said. "I think it's going to help big-time."

Still, Thursday's moves were a surprise considering comments Bowlen and McDaniels made after the new coach was hired Jan. 12. At that time, Bowlen reiterated statements he made after Shanahan's firing that he didn't anticipate any changes in the personnel department, while McDaniels had said Jim Goodman would have the final say in personnel decisions.

Bowlen's decision surprised the Goodmans, who up until early Thursday afternoon were at work, evaluating players for free agency and the upcoming draft. Both father and son had represented the Broncos at the Senior Bowl in Alabama last month.

"I thank Mr. Bowlen for the opportunity he gave me," Jeff Goodman said Thursday evening. "I wish Brian and Josh the best of luck going forward. It's a class organization that will continue to have success in the future. I'm proud of what we've accomplished in the short period of time that I was here, made a lot of good relationships and look forward to seeing the Broncos have success in the future."

Bowlen said he knew the decision to streamline the personnel department, with Xanders at the top, would leave Jeff Goodman "disenfranchised."

Bowlen acknowledged some "anxiety" between Jeff Goodman and Xanders as they shared duties, and though Bowlen said there was no friction in their relationship, it was inevitable that the one not picked to be GM would have to leave.

"My decision was to pick Brian as the general manager, and once I did that I don't think Jeff felt — he didn't come out and say this — but he felt he should have moved on," Bowlen said. "I think he should move on to a different organization and become a general manager."

By going with Xanders, that also meant proceeding without Jim Goodman, who had been with the Broncos for 11 years. Bowlen said he didn't think Jim would be comfortable staying without Jeff.

"I don't think it would have worked," Bowlen said. "Knowing Jim for a long time, I have a great deal of respect for him. Jim is a top-notch guy who could run anybody's scouting department. And I felt he should be given that opportunity."

Xanders was hired last May as an assistant GM after spending 14 years with the Atlanta Falcons. His expertise is in the business side of personnel matters, especially in dealing with the salary cap and contract negotiations. Though Xanders does have experience in player evaluation, Bowlen said he expects to hire someone else — likely someone with prior connections to either Xanders or McDaniels — to be in charge of scouting.
"I am humbled by this opportunity and accept it as a great challenge on behalf of our fans, our community, Mr. Bowlen and the organization. I am excited to work together with Coach McDaniels and put our collective resources into winning football games," Xanders said in a statement released by the team.

This is the second overhaul of the Broncos' front office in less than a year after Shanahan fired former general manager Ted Sundquist on March 12.

Dortoh
02-13-2009, 03:35 PM
So Xanders and Jeff dont get along. Then Bowlin cans both Goodmans but plans to bring in someone else to be in charge of scouting.

Seems pretty clear to me that there was a tiff

dogfish
02-13-2009, 03:43 PM
So Xanders and Jeff dont get along. Then Bowlin cans both Goodmans but plans to bring in someone else to be in charge of scouting.

Seems pretty clear to me that there was a tiff

blech! as i said before, if that really was the case, fire the bean counter! unless we bring in somebody with a proven track record of success in personnel, i call this a poor decision and a loss for the organization. . . .

BroncoJoe
02-13-2009, 03:47 PM
blech! as i said before, if that really was the case, fire the bean counter! unless we bring in somebody with a proven track record of success in personnel, i call this a poor decision and a loss for the organization. . . .

I think it is all a non-issue until we see how free-agency and the draft go, then ultimately next season.

Man, you guys are quick to pull the carpet out of an owner that has enjoyed pretty good success as an owner. I think Pat saw he was losing control over HIS organization, and our three year drought from the playoffs pissed him off.

dogfish
02-13-2009, 03:48 PM
i also don't love doogie having final say over the roster. . . IMO it's too much juice for a guy with a grand total of a couple years as a coordinator under his belt. . . he's going to have enough on his plate as it is. . . we've got the guy as the head coach, the play caller, AND now the final say on personnel? that's proven to be an awfully big load of responsibility for long-time veteran head coaches like shanahan and holmgren, what makes mcdaniels ready for all this? bow len can CALL xanders a "true general manager" all he wants, but in reality he just isn't if he's not in charge of personnel decisions. . .


i'm not saying this can't work, and i'll be waiting to see as anxiously as anyone, but i can't say that i feel all that great about it ATM. . . ahh well, all we can do is hope it works out!

dogfish
02-13-2009, 03:50 PM
I think it is all a non-issue until we see how free-agency and the draft go, then ultimately next season.

Man, you guys are quick to pull the carpet out of an owner that has enjoyed pretty good success as an owner. I think Pat saw he was losing control over HIS organization, and our three year drought from the playoffs pissed him off.

enh. . . i'm not "pulling the carpet out" of anyone. . . please see my last post in the goodmans thread. . . commenting that i don't like a particular move, and explaining why, isn't exactly the same as burning him in effigy and demanding he sell the team. . . .

BroncoJoe
02-13-2009, 03:54 PM
enh. . . i'm not "pulling the carpet out" of anyone. . . please see my last post in the goodmans thread. . . commenting that i don't like a particular move, and explaining why, isn't exactly the same as burning him in effigy and demanding he sell the team. . . .

I quoted you only because it was the last post - I was referring to a lot of people, not you specifically.

That said, in one way I was referring to your statement re: it's a loss for the organization. I just don't see it that way at this time. We have new leadership in McD & Co. If the previous/holdover people weren't on board, they need to go.

Superchop 7
02-13-2009, 04:00 PM
This has Joe Ellis fingerprints all over it.

The Broncos are no longer a team with football people running football operations, they are a team with business people running football operations.

In the words of Paul Vance (Jaguars general council) "The suits don't pretend to know football"

fcspikeit
02-13-2009, 05:11 PM
Quote taken from DP article...

If Bowlen does hire someone as a player evaluation exec, this move truly makes more sense.

He is going to hire someone to head player evaluation, two weeks before FA?

The guy will have to evaluate the talent we have on staff before he could really get into filling holes.. How is he going to do that in such a short time?

The timing of this sucks!

Lonestar
02-13-2009, 05:13 PM
blech! as i said before, if that really was the case, fire the bean counter! unless we bring in somebody with a proven track record of success in personnel, i call this a poor decision and a loss for the organization. . . .


I'll bet that since the Goodman's were good scouts and talent evaluators but knew noting about bean counting and were "Supposedly" partially in charge of personnel matters pat felt it necessary to make the change.. Scouts scout and GM manage.. sometime they can't do both..


It was said somewhere the Xman and Jeff had a tiff. and that sounded like a power grab to Pat and he made a decision to cut all ties with mikeys old employees.

As for decision making I'd guess that Mc kid will get his way about 90% of the time.. Hard to hold him accountable for wins and loses if Xman only drafts LB's and TE's..

Time will tell

BroncoJoe
02-13-2009, 05:14 PM
Everyone seems to forget McD got his start in player personnel. For the Patriots.

They always seemed to do a pretty good job.

Lonestar
02-13-2009, 05:21 PM
He is going to hire someone to head player evaluation, two weeks before FA?

The guy will have to evaluate the talent we have on staff before he could really get into filling holes.. How is he going to do that in such a short time?

The timing of this sucks!


Spike the scouting is done has been since the season was over..

After that is has almost always falls to the position coaches to evaluate the film the scouts brought back home.. then the coordinators get involved and the HC and all the coaches rank the players..

More will happen during and after the combine and individual workouts..

But the grunt work that the scouts did is over for now other than sorting film and getting ready for next year.. ..

But I'll guess they will wait until after the draft to look for a new head scout if they do not promote from within..

fcspikeit
02-13-2009, 05:23 PM
Everyone seems to forget McD got his start in player personnel. For the Patriots.

They always seemed to do a pretty good job.

If no one else is brought in, Mckid will hold just about the same position Shanahan did. He is unproven as a HC. It seems like an awful lot to expect out of the guy to also head player personnel..

This last article assumed Mckid would have final say. Bowlen seemed to let on Xman would have more say but he (Bowlen) would ultimately have the final say..

I hope who ever really does have the final say, does an outstanding job.. It just seems like an awful lot of double talk to me.

BroncoJoe
02-13-2009, 05:27 PM
If no one else is brought in, Mckid will hold just about the same position Shanahan did. He is unproven as a HC. It seems like an awful lot to expect out of the guy to also head player personnel..

This last article assumed Mckid would have final say. Bowlen seemed to let on Xman would have more say but he (Bowlen) would ultimately have the final say..

I hope who ever really does have the final say, does an outstanding job.. It just seems like an awful lot of double talk to me.

Shanahan was also unproven.

Lonestar
02-13-2009, 05:29 PM
Shanahan was also unproven.

And overall except for his first three years here and then again in the end unproductive.. :salute:

Dean
02-13-2009, 06:13 PM
I keep reading that Mckid will do take care of personnel matter because of his past experience. From his Bio on the Pats home page, it looks to me like he only spent one year as an assistant in player personnel before moving to defense and then QB coach/offensive coordinator.

That doesn't sound like much experience to me. However, the blood is in the water. There is no turning back now. Sink or swim the organization appears to be set for this year. Hope for the best. :shots:

omac
02-13-2009, 06:46 PM
I just had a thought about the idea that Pat wanted more control ....

The way the organization was set up before Shanny left, with the 3 headed monster at GM and a first time head coach; all of them would've likely been reporting to Pat. Pat's always been a hands-off type owner, and in Shanahan, he had the perfect guy to oversee everything. Despite the firing, he probably had a lot of respect for Shanahan and the way he ran things, making it easier for him to consistently have a solid, very profitable team all these years.

Now that Shanahan's gone, maybe he wanted to streamline the organization to make things less complicated for himself, since Shanny was no longer there to do the bulk of the work.

The way it looks right now anyway, he has a Sundquist in Xanders and a Shanahan in Doogie; he just needs someone to take Jim Goodman's place since he felt he wouldn't be able to keep him with the conflict his son had with Doogie. By shaking up the organization, maybe he's really trying to keep things the same.

bcbronc
02-13-2009, 07:14 PM
i think you're probably correct for the most part cug, although i still suspect that something else must have happened behind the scenes to make us switch course so drastically after just promoting the guys a few weeks ago. . . .






^^ this is the part that concerns me ^^



bean counters aren't hard to find, and they don't have nearly the same value as good talent evaluators, who ARE hard to find. . . IMO this looks like a decision intended to make the denver broncos a better/more successful business, not a better/more successful football team. . .

a bean counter that can manipulate the salary cap to give us an advantage is a very valuable asset. whether Xman is that bean counter or not awaits to be seen.

I see this as similiar to the Reeves/Shanahan/Elway relationship from a previous eon.

Shanahan (Xman) and Elway (McKid) are on the same page with where they want the franchise to go. Reeves (Goodman) has a little different perspective. Elway (McKid) isn't going anywhere, so match him up with the exec that shares the common vision. Last time, Bowlen went with the established head coach. this time, he's giving the Assistant the nod (probably) based ont he chemistry he's developed with the young hotshot.

Last thing we want/need is a rookie head coach rowing in a different direction than his GM, or (perhaps more importantly) vice versa. Even with our improved drafts of late, I have no problems with a clean slate when it comes to player (draft and UFA) evaluations. end of the day, even if McKid isn't getting the final say, if the GM doesn't share a football philosophy with the head coach, one of them has to go.

fcspikeit
02-13-2009, 07:41 PM
Shanahan was also unproven.

IIRC, Shanahan's strangle hold grew over time after he had won the Superbowl.

What other first time coaches with this little experience is given that kind of control?

It just seems a bit risky to me...

BroncoJoe
02-13-2009, 07:47 PM
IIRC, Shanahan's strangle hold grew over time after he had won the Superbowl.

What other first time coaches with this little experience is given that kind of control?

It just seems a bit risky to me...

Bowlen has regained control. There is a real GM. McD is the coach, and (rightfully so) will have strong input on player selection.

Let's not start jumping off cliffs because of the "unknown". It could turn out great. It could turn out terrible.

We just don't know yet and it's stupid to speculate one way or another at this point. JMO.

fcspikeit
02-13-2009, 08:42 PM
Bowlen has regained control. There is a real GM. McD is the coach, and (rightfully so) will have strong input on player selection.

Let's not start jumping off cliffs because of the "unknown". It could turn out great. It could turn out terrible.

We just don't know yet and it's stupid to speculate one way or another at this point. JMO.

This is an internet message board :laugh:

If we're not going to speculate on the unknown, then there really is no point in talking about the draft or FA right? It's dumb to write up a mock and spend 6 pages talking about it when we can just wait and see who they pick ;)

Traveler
02-14-2009, 08:04 AM
How about the little nugget highlighted below....

KRIEGER: Bowlen takes back the Broncos

Pat Bowlen may not be the best messenger for his own message. In fact, he’s clearly not. Somehow, a man astute enough to chair the NFL’s labor committee with a potential labor war looming comes off as your confused uncle when he tries to explain what he’s doing with his own team.

But Bowlen’s moves to recast the Broncos organization over the past six weeks have not been as confused as they look.

The bottom line is he has reacquired his own franchise. It is as if he went out on the market and bought it all over again. That is the extent of the change he has wrought since firing Mike Shanahan on Dec. 30.

The Broncos owner, who turns 65 on Wednesday, woke up one morning and found himself on the outside looking in at his own business. It’s not clear exactly what morning that was, but it was probably a little more than a year ago, just before he made Joe Ellis the Broncos’ chief operating officer.

Until then, Ellis had been executive vice president of business operations in an organization divided along classic lines. The firewall between football decisions and business decisions might as well have been the constitutional separation of church and state.

As executive vice president of football operations, Shanahan had total control over the football side, which meant he could expand his coaching staff, as he did, expand his personnel department, as he did, make expensive personnel mistakes, as he did, and account to no one for any of it.

This was Bowlen’s own fault. He gave Shanahan all that power. He promised he could keep it as long as he liked. He fell in love with a coach, just as Shanahan often fell in love with players. As it often turns out, personal affection and business are not necessarily a great mix.

As time went on, Bowlen came to see he had little or no control over the business he owned. Despite the fact that he went to his office in Dove Valley every day, one of the NFL’s few full-time owners, success and failure, on both the field and the balance sheet, were out of his day-to-day control.

Had Shanahan succeeded on the field in recent years, Bowlen probably would have continued to live with being largely a spectator of his own franchise. But the combination of disappointment on the field and disappointment on the balance sheet wore him down.

“Nobody in pro sports can afford to operate in a vacuum with a division between football and business operations anymore,” Ellis said Friday.

“Whether we were or were not in the past is not the issue. The issue is moving forward we need to be synched up and work together as best we can. So that’s what we’re doing.”

It is in this context that the promotion of Brian Xanders to general manager this week and the firing of Jim Goodman and his son Jeff come into focus. The elder Goodman was an old-school Shanahan lieutenant — a football guy.

Xanders, with his background not only in personnel evaluation but player contracts and the nuances of the salary cap, is in a better position to provide the organizational accountability Bowlen is now determined to demand.

“I will tell you that when Pat Bowlen looked at Brian’s credentials, he saw a wide span of responsibility that he’s had in the 14 years that he was with the Atlanta Falcons and the nine months that he was here,” Ellis said.

The perception that the elder Goodman might follow Shanahan to his next destination and the easy chemistry Xanders and new head coach Josh McDaniels developed over the past month also helped Bowlen make his decision.

That Bowlen would suggest five weeks ago, upon hiring McDaniels, that Goodman would remain in place, and later claim that was only a public perception, is mainly a measure of his difficulty dealing with the spotlight.

Privately, he comes off as much more decisive, knowledgeable, opinionated and even profane. For some reason, speaking for public consumption turns him squirrelly. It has made much of what he’s said and done over the past two months appear contradictory.

On the other hand, give him credit for stepping up to the microphone, even if he hates it and isn’t very good at it. He shows much more respect for his fan base than the owner who refuses to be publicly accountable, insisting he runs a private business rather than a quasi-public trust.

In the current economic environment, the Broncos, like a lot of sports teams, intend to hold the line on ticket prices in 2009. In that context, they cannot be making financial decisions, even on the football side, without accountability.

“Pat has made it clear to everybody here that we are all accountable to him,” Ellis said. “There is full accountability in this building, with respect to business and football.”

So it is not that Bowlen wants to be Jerry Jones. Saying that Xanders and McDaniels will report to him does not mean he will be deciding whom to draft. That’s why a good working relationship between the GM and head coach is important. They must be able to reach a consensus between them.

A year ago, as the undefeated Patriots, with McDaniels as offensive coordinator, prepared to play the Giants in the Super Bowl, I asked Scott Pioli, then the Patriots’ vice president for player personnel, how he and head coach Bill Belichick worked together choosing players.

“I don’t know how to describe exactly what it is, but here’s what I know: There hasn’t been a player that we’ve brought here that Bill and I haven’t agreed on,” Pioli said.

“If there’s a player that Bill doesn’t like that I like, it’s kind of a feel thing. We get to a certain point and whoever believes in the player kind of stops pushing because Bill and I, we’ve been fortunate enough, I think, where if we agree on a player, we think we know that we have a pretty good chance. If we disagree, we trust the other person enough that they know something or they feel something that it’s not going to work. And we’ve never really pushed it (past) that point.”

This is the model Bowlen hopes to cultivate with Xanders and McDaniels. They are both rookies at their new jobs, so we’ll see.

But this much Bowlen has accomplished in the past two months: He now sits atop a streamlined, traditional organizational chart. There are no personal fiefdoms, no separate empires.

He has taken back his franchise. Now we’ll see if he can make it win.


http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2009/feb/13/bowlen-takes-back-broncos/

elsid13
02-14-2009, 08:39 AM
Everyone seems to forget McD got his start in player personnel. For the Patriots.

They always seemed to do a pretty good job.

Everyone keeps saying that but I kinda feel differently. They seem hit on the 1st rounders, but they have been so-so after that. In fact thier 2007 draft only has one player still on the roster. And if you look at their roster there isn't a lot of youth. The secondary is aging , the LBers are old (see JR Seau coming back) and behind Moss, Welker there is no youth at WR.

Dean
02-14-2009, 12:23 PM
Shanahan was also unproven.

The Broncos were not the first head coaching position for Mike Shanahan.
:questionmark: What are you talking about?

Lonestar
02-14-2009, 12:53 PM
The Broncos were not the first head coaching position for Mike Shanahan.
:questionmark: What are you talking about?

I guess you could say he had an unproven "winning" record and certainly had ZERO GM/VP experience..

On that I think we can both agree.

ydave77
02-14-2009, 12:54 PM
Good, Bad, Ugly? Time will tell. My take is a very apprehensive mainly because I felt Papa Goodman was doing a very good job lately, and even more importantly, who on the broncos saff will weigh in with their thoughts from Senior Bowl? The Goodmen's went, and now they're gone. This is the scariest part to me. The timing of it, after Senior Bowl, and so close to FA.

The lesson for Bowlen to hopefully learn, is don't hire family members. Things can devolve very quickly, and if you want to let one go, you may have to let both go. Or keep both, even if one is underperforming.
(Yes I know that didnt happen with the Bates', but still an impt lesson to learn)

Lonestar
02-14-2009, 12:57 PM
Good, Bad, Ugly? Time will tell. My take is a very apprehensive mainly because I felt Papa Goodman was doing a very good job lately, and even more importantly, who on the broncos saff will weigh in with their thoughts from Senior Bowl? The Goodmen's went, and now they're gone. This is the scariest part to me. The timing of it, after Senior Bowl, and so close to FA.

The lesson for Bowlen to hopefully learn, is don't hire family members. Things can devolve very quickly, and if you want to let one go, you may have to let both go. Or keep both, even if one is underperforming.
(Yes I know that didnt happen with the Bates', but still an impt lesson to learn)


do you suppose the Goodman's did not file a report away about the players.. or just keep the film and notes in his head until draft day..

Think about it.. their job for the upcoming draft and FA period except for the up coming Combine was pretty much done..

BTW Pat did not hire them mikey did.. but I'm sure Pat has learned the lesson..

ydave77
02-14-2009, 01:05 PM
do you suppose the Goodman's did not file a report away about the players.. or just keep the film and notes in his head until draft day..

Think about it.. their job for the upcoming draft and FA period except for the up coming Combine was pretty much done..

BTW Pat did not hire them mikey did.. but I'm sure Pat has learned the lesson..

Reports don't equal eyes and ears in my mind. A picture is worth a thousand words, and those who were there live, will better be able to see that picture.

And I hope Pat did learn that lesson, though I agree he hopefully has.

BroncoJoe
02-14-2009, 01:15 PM
The Broncos were not the first head coaching position for Mike Shanahan.
:questionmark: What are you talking about?


I guess you could say he had an unproven "winning" record and certainly had ZERO GM/VP experience..

On that I think we can both agree.

What he said. Shanahan was hardly "proven" as a head coach when he came here, let alone GM/EVP.

IMO, he was the equivalent of Norv Turner at the time. Excellent OC, not so good as a HC.

WARHORSE
02-14-2009, 01:49 PM
What he said. Shanahan was hardly "proven" as a head coach when he came here, let alone GM/EVP.

IMO, he was the equivalent of Norv Turner at the time. Excellent OC, not so good as a HC.



Norv Turner? omg.:tsk:




Youre talking PRE-headcoach Im assuming.


Norv Turner couldnt touch MS as an OC if his hand was on his johnson.:coffee:

BroncoJoe
02-14-2009, 01:59 PM
Norv Turner? omg.:tsk:




Youre talking PRE-headcoach Im assuming.


Norv Turner couldnt touch MS as an OC if his hand was on his johnson.:coffee:

I'm not necessarily comparing the two, but Shanahan led some explosive offenses while he was an OC. His first stop as a HC was a failure.

Obviously, Shanahan turned out to be a damn good coach, but his record previous to coming here was questionable at best.

Hobe
02-14-2009, 02:11 PM
Brian Xanders and Jeff Goodman did not see eye to eye.

And no I dont have a link dont ask :lol:

It also put Xanders in a very bad spot because Jeff's Daddy is the boss.The way it was Xanders would have a very difficult time winning an argument.

Lonestar
02-14-2009, 02:12 PM
It also put Xanders in a very bad spot because Jeff's Daddy is the boss.The way it was Xanders would have a very difficult time winning an argument.


Exactly...

Dean
02-14-2009, 02:20 PM
I'm not necessarily comparing the two, but Shanahan led some explosive offenses while he was an OC. His first stop as a HC was a failure.


At his first stop he tried to change the coaches. He fired Art Shell and the Crypt Keeper re-hired him thereby cutting the legs out from under Mike. I would think that coaching when the players know that you are not in control would be difficult.

Irregardless, Mike did have experience coming into his first season with the Broncos.

Shazam!
02-14-2009, 02:27 PM
At the time, Shanahan was the guy Elway demanded. Plain and simple.

BroncoJoe
02-14-2009, 02:42 PM
At his first stop he tried to change the coaches. He fired Art Shell and the Crypt Keeper re-hired him thereby cutting the legs out from under Mike. I would think that coaching when the players know that you are not in control would be difficult.

Irregardless, Mike did have experience coming into his first season with the Broncos.

I'm simply stating that the people down on McD should wait and see what he can do first. Even Shanahan did not make the playoffs his first year in Denver, and at 8-8 we were tied for last in the division. You can tell me all day long that Shanahan had experience. I agree, but it was ultimately a failed experience prior to his 2nd year in Denver.


At the time, Shanahan was the guy Elway demanded. Plain and simple.

I agree 100%.

Northman
02-14-2009, 02:51 PM
I'm simply stating that the people down on McD should wait and see what he can do first.

Funny, ive been saying that same thing quite a lot recently in regards to other matters on this team. But, people are set in their ways. Either they are going to allow individuals to grow and show what they got or they are going to crucify them. Nature of the beast.

gobroncsnv
02-14-2009, 04:38 PM
Well, if we can't have family members in the same organization, then we'll need to get a new head coach.... McD has his brother on staff. Also, goodbye Boss! Let's go out on a limb and keep that other Bailey dude.

Magnificent Seven
02-14-2009, 05:18 PM
Good Post! I hope Pat Bowlen knows what he is doing...however, your post makes sense. I didnt like Father & son relationship at work.

omac
02-14-2009, 07:58 PM
Sometimes, the father and son in the same organization works, because the father has so entrenched his son in the business at such an early age (even childhood), that the son becomes a genuine football guy ... someone who really knows firsthand the ins and outs. It's really no coincidence that some of the best football people were sons of football people.

Lonestar
02-14-2009, 09:23 PM
Sometimes, the father and son in the same organization works, because the father has so entrenched his son in the business at such an early age (even childhood), that the son becomes a genuine football guy ... someone who really knows firsthand the ins and outs. It's really no coincidence that some of the best football people were sons of football people.

That is very true.. some that come immediately to mind are..
Mc Kid
Nolans
Ryans
Phillips


But when one of the kids is a brat (not saying Jeff was) that could cause a problem with others in the organization..

Many of those kids did not work for/with their dads in a subordinate way either....

Magnificent Seven
02-14-2009, 09:30 PM
That is very true.. some that come immediately to mind are..
Mc Kid
Nolans
Ryans
Phillips


But when one of the kids is a brat (not saying Jeff was) that could cause a problem with others in the organization..

Many of those kids did not work for/with their dads in a subordinate way either....

However, The Goodmans didn't do a great job in Denver.

Lonestar
02-14-2009, 09:37 PM
However, The Goodmans didn't do a great job in Denver.



we really do not know for sure if they did or did not..

"Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? Heh-heh-heh-heh-heh-heh-heh! The Shadow knows" ...

Cugel
02-15-2009, 01:10 AM
Jeff Goodman was brought in by his father.

His duties were similar to those of Xanders who was also brought in last year.

This is Shanahan's organizational disfunction. He could probably make it work because HE was the tyrant who ran everything. He didn't think he needed and didn't WANT a strong GM.

But, Jim Goodman is a head scout, with NO GM experience, and JEFF Goodman is a wet behind the ears nobody who got his job through nepotism.

Fine. He can be an assistant and work in the back office, because anybody can do that. He reported to Shanahan who kept him in line, but to promote him to GM? Absurd!

So, there was a triangle:

Jeff Goodman didn't get along with Xanders. They didn't fight so much (the article quoted in this thread quotes Bowlen to this effect). Rather they had overlapping responsibilities. Naturally there was friction.

Try that at work sometime! Having somebody with very similar responsibilities as yours competing to do your job and treading on your toes. It's bad organization.

2. Xanders has 14 years of experience and is a real GM. Whether he's a good one or not remains to be seen.

3. Shanahan didn't run the organization very well. He made bad choices in FA, he lost control of the salary cap, and his drafting sucked for years.

Notice in the other thread about the salary cap that the Broncos have over $20 million in DEAD CAP SPACE right now! Money going out to:

DeWayne Robertson ($16 million)
Travis Henry ($3.6 million)!
Keary Colbert (something like $1.1 million)
Etc.

It's even worse, that other teams like the Titans manage to be $20-30 million over the cap every year, giving them tons of room to sign FA's etc., while the Broncos were always struggling.

Because the NFL adds unearned "performance bonuses" back onto next years' salary cap, smart teams can actually manipulate the cap to have MUCH MORE ROOM than the cap maximum.

Shanahan never learned to do that. He always had to dump salary right as the deadline ran out to squeeze under the cap.

We don't need to go over Shanahan's miserable drafting record between 2000 & 2006, and 2007. He's had one great draft in the last 10 years -- 2006 (Cutler, Marshall, Sheffler, Kuper). 2008 appears to be good too (Clady, Royal). 2007, when he tried to draft defense has been pretty much a total flop so far (Moss, Crowder, Thomas).

Thus, there's a pretty good case for Pat Bowlen intervening and pulling the plug. :coffee:

Now whether Xanders and McDaniels together can do the job? Who knows? But we DO know that Jim Goodman wasn't a great GM prospect and Jeff Goodman wouldn't even have had his job if he wasn't Goodman's son.

So, neither of them could do it. That's for sure.

Magnificent Seven
02-15-2009, 01:13 AM
we really do not know for sure if they did or did not..

"Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? Heh-heh-heh-heh-heh-heh-heh! The Shadow knows" ...

Look at Broncos' defense. They didnt upgrade on defense well and what were Goodmans doing? Sat down and smoked some cigars... let Shanahan do his job on defense.

Lonestar
02-15-2009, 01:18 AM
that is pretty clear..

Any one that can't wrap their head around it needs to take a step back and think about it for a day or two..

time for everyone to get on board the Bronco train and HOPE for the best.. cause it is the only one in town..

to bad I can't give out but 1 MHS salute for that one..

Might be able to close thread after that one..