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View Full Version : Guys, your problem is Fox



sunbeam
12-24-2011, 07:23 PM
Hi, I'm from South Carolina and observed Fox's career as coach of the panthers.

What you are seeing now is kind of an example of what you are going to have to expect if he is your coach.

He is going to have a good year, then next year it will be a bad year. I have no idea if you should consider this to be a good year, but that is his MO (except both of his last two years in Charlotte were bad).

Look his players love him. They did in Charlotte, and I'm positive they will in Denver.

The problem with him is he is just too innately conservative to ever have an effective offense, unless he is in one of those games where his team is just running over people.

Don't be fooled by the glimpses you've seen of Tebow running the spread option or how the Panthers ran the wildcat a lot one year (they may have been the team to start it, but I can't remember).

The man is just too innately conservative. He will never have a team capable of winning a superbowl in today's game unless he gets real lucky in the opponents he draws.

It's a shame. I have no personal dislike for him, I'm just calling it like I've seen it.

The reason why I'm posting here is I would like to see Tebow do well, and I'd also like to see the option game come to the NFL. This is the most boring league I've seen in my lifetime in a lot of ways.

I didn't watch your game with Buffalo, but I did watch the Patriots game. There was a moment in the first half, Denver had a 4 and under 1 I think, momentum, the Patriots hadn't done much on offense.

Fox punts. I actually laughed, because I knew that's what he would do.

I think this is your good year. I think next year you are going to see problems.

Look Tebow isn't stupid. He is a second year player that hasn't played a whole lot, and I'm not too sure how well he reads defenses. But that part will come I think.

He does not panic under pressure. He is very athletic, and can survive hits and make plays not many can. He has star power. He is a very hard worker. He will probably improve greatly in a regular offseason where he can work with the coaches.

Whether he will ever be accurate enough to put up big numbers in a traditional NFL offense is still up in the air though.

This year Denver should have embraced the spread option without apologies and just gone with it. I'm not sure you ever would have tried without Fox as coach, but I'm also not sure any other coach would have dialed it back so much when it was working.

Anyway I think Tebow's career in Denver is probably going to crash and burn. I have no idea what Elway thinks of him or anything of that sort.

But I've seen the Fox show too many times, and I know how it ends. He's kind of like Norv Turner that way.

And I think Tebow is going to wind up the scapegoat in the whole thing.

MasterShake
12-24-2011, 07:41 PM
Wow, for a guy named sunbeam you sure are putting a cloud of shit on my day.










:lol:

TimHippo
12-24-2011, 07:48 PM
Hi, I'm from South Carolina and observed Fox's career as coach of the panthers.


Hi,

Cam Newton's going to crash and burn with his fake smile.

The guy got kicked out from the Gators for cheating and the cheated his way onto Auburn. He's a disaster waiting to happen.

I've seen this kind of show too many times to know how it ends.

topscribe
12-24-2011, 07:51 PM
The Broncos are 8-7, and we're talking about their problem? :confused:

At the beginning of the season, weren't people wondering whether the Broncos would have a shot at Luck?

VonSackemMiller
12-24-2011, 08:37 PM
John Fox is a average coach, yes. He was brung in to help clean up the mess, I think our future head coach is on the staff though DENNIS ALLEN. But yeah your right fox can be too conservative. But you can tell he lets McCoy freestyle sometimes exspecially calling 3 passing plays in a row numerous times when the Bills were dropping everybody back into coverage. What did happen to the read option? why dont we use it as much anymore? We can run a traditional offense sorta but why are we leaning more and more to the traditional offense when the read option run or or read option play action pass was working so fine?

It seems like once they realize tebow can hit some throws they said hey lets work back into a traditional offense instead of doing what was working and keeping our defense off the field and fresh.

red98
12-24-2011, 08:44 PM
Hi, I'm from South Carolina and observed Fox's career as coach of the panthers.

What you are seeing now is kind of an example of what you are going to have to expect if he is your coach.

He is going to have a good year, then next year it will be a bad year. I have no idea if you should consider this to be a good year, but that is his MO (except both of his last two years in Charlotte were bad).

Look his players love him. They did in Charlotte, and I'm positive they will in Denver.

The problem with him is he is just too innately conservative to ever have an effective offense, unless he is in one of those games where his team is just running over people.

Don't be fooled by the glimpses you've seen of Tebow running the spread option or how the Panthers ran the wildcat a lot one year (they may have been the team to start it, but I can't remember).

The man is just too innately conservative. He will never have a team capable of winning a superbowl in today's game unless he gets real lucky in the opponents he draws.

It's a shame. I have no personal dislike for him, I'm just calling it like I've seen it.

The reason why I'm posting here is I would like to see Tebow do well, and I'd also like to see the option game come to the NFL. This is the most boring league I've seen in my lifetime in a lot of ways.

I didn't watch your game with Buffalo, but I did watch the Patriots game. There was a moment in the first half, Denver had a 4 and under 1 I think, momentum, the Patriots hadn't done much on offense.

Fox punts. I actually laughed, because I knew that's what he would do.

I think this is your good year. I think next year you are going to see problems.

Look Tebow isn't stupid. He is a second year player that hasn't played a whole lot, and I'm not too sure how well he reads defenses. But that part will come I think.

He does not panic under pressure. He is very athletic, and can survive hits and make plays not many can. He has star power. He is a very hard worker. He will probably improve greatly in a regular offseason where he can work with the coaches.

Whether he will ever be accurate enough to put up big numbers in a traditional NFL offense is still up in the air though.

This year Denver should have embraced the spread option without apologies and just gone with it. I'm not sure you ever would have tried without Fox as coach, but I'm also not sure any other coach would have dialed it back so much when it was working.

Anyway I think Tebow's career in Denver is probably going to crash and burn. I have no idea what Elway thinks of him or anything of that sort.

But I've seen the Fox show too many times, and I know how it ends. He's kind of like Norv Turner that way.

And I think Tebow is going to wind up the scapegoat in the whole thing.

You think the NFL is really boring but you know all about Fox from watching him in Carolina? :rolleyes:

Joel
12-24-2011, 09:54 PM
I posted a similar thread based on less first hand observation a week or two ago, when I saw an article online about Fox being the only coach in NFL history to win 3+ OT games in separate seasons. That's a pretty amazing stat when you consider the NFL's had OT rules for half a century.

The thing about keeping it close is that it doesn't inherently favor one team over or another; what it ultimately favors more than anything is LUCK. Everyone knows a close game can be decided by a single fluke play; that's nearly dog team coaches go into nearly EVERY game saying their game plan is to "keep it close and win at the end." That statement is an implicit admission that, not only is the other team MUCH better than yours, but you're well aware of that fact, realize that they'll beat your brains out in any kind of conventional game. How often has anyone heard a really good coach say his game plan is to keep the game close and win at the end? The Pats, Saints, Pack, '49ers and Texans don't play like that. Even the Ravens and Steelers don't; they play for LOW SCORING games, but those are not the same as CLOSE games.

Broncos fans, know that feeling you get EVERY WEEK, where you're on the edge of your seat all game because ONE blown play either way could decide the final? That's why no coach with any sense plays that way unless he has no other choice. It's a great way for a blocked FG (like against Chicago,) onside kick (like against Miami) or TD punt return (like against Oakland) to let a bad team beat a good team. Good teams like to go out and bury their opponents early so preserving victory requires no more than avoiding a sustained series of screw ups to preserve victory (of course, if you're the Dallas Cowboys that may be too great a challenge in itself.)

I was having Christmas dinner with family, so I didn't get to see all of todays game and can't comment on all of it (considering I was the only one who cared about the game, I think they were more than generous to postpone opening presents until half time.) However, while most of the blame has gone to McCoys cowardice and/or Tebows ineptitude, Foxs playcalling this year has shown strong tendencies alarmingly reminiscent of Martyball, and I think we've all seen enough Browns, Chiefs and Chargers teams to know what that gets you. It gets you this line in your Wikipedia article:
He has the most wins of any NFL coach since 1966 to never coach a team in a Super Bowl.

John Fox is a average coach, yes. He was brung in to help clean up the mess, I think our future head coach is on the staff though DENNIS ALLEN. But yeah your right fox can be too conservative. But you can tell he lets McCoy freestyle sometimes exspecially calling 3 passing plays in a row numerous times when the Bills were dropping everybody back into coverage. What did happen to the read option? why dont we use it as much anymore? We can run a traditional offense sorta but why are we leaning more and more to the traditional offense when the read option run or or read option play action pass was working so fine?

It seems like once they realize tebow can hit some throws they said hey lets work back into a traditional offense instead of doing what was working and keeping our defense off the field and fresh.
We quit running the option a month ago because that's about the time it stopped working. It was particularly bad against the Bears, when Urlacher was hitting Tebow a LOT, as both passer and runner, because the MLB was invented to deal with QBs who ran as often as they passed, becoming their natural counterpart. Sticking "read" on the front of the option doesn't make it any newer or different than it was in 1960. It works when guys blow assignments and/or lack the speed to stick with the QB and RB and/or the strength to tackle them. You can get away with that in college because most teams don't face more than a couple teams all year immune to ALL those weaknesses, but in the NFL pretty much NO ONE has those flaws, and option just doesn't work consistently against any but the worst teams.

Now, spread formation with a QB who runs AND passes well has a lot more potential, because it actually DOES provide the versatility, creativity and deception the option claims (saying "we'll ALWAYS run the QB OR the RB, but you don't know which!" isn't versatile, creative or deceptive.) The option is, more often than not, a disaster. We quit running it when it started producing 5 yard losses more often than not, and that's not conservatism or liberalism, it's just basic integer math.

As I said, I didn't get to see all the game, but the criticisms of consecutive passes I've seen are of second half play calling, when we were down by 10+ the whole time and they were stuffing our run. It sounds a lot like "only pass if you MUST," which is vintage Martyball predictable enough for even average teams to beat handily.

Jsteve01
12-24-2011, 10:05 PM
I posted a similar thread based on less first hand observation a week or two ago, when I saw an article online about Fox being the only coach in NFL history to win 3+ OT games in separate seasons. That's a pretty amazing stat when you consider the NFL's had OT rules for half a century.

The thing about keeping it close is that it doesn't inherently favor one team over or another; what it ultimately favors more than anything is LUCK. Everyone knows a close game can be decided by a single fluke play; that's nearly dog team coaches go into nearly EVERY game saying their game plan is to "keep it close and win at the end." That statement is an implicit admission that, not only is the other team MUCH better than yours, but you're well aware of that fact, realize that they'll beat your brains out in any kind of conventional game. How often has anyone heard a really good coach say his game plan is to keep the game close and win at the end? The Pats, Saints, Pack, '49ers and Texans don't play like that. Even the Ravens and Steelers don't; they play for LOW SCORING games, but those are not the same as CLOSE games.

Broncos fans, know that feeling you get EVERY WEEK, where you're on the edge of your seat all game because ONE blown play either way could decide the final? That's why no coach with any sense plays that way unless he has no other choice. It's a great way for a blocked FG (like against Chicago,) onside kick (like against Miami) or TD punt return (like against Oakland) to let a bad team beat a good team. Good teams like to go out and bury their opponents early so preserving victory requires no more than avoiding a sustained series of screw ups to preserve victory (of course, if you're the Dallas Cowboys that may be too great a challenge in itself.)

I was having Christmas dinner with family, so I didn't get to see all of todays game and can't comment on all of it (considering I was the only one who cared about the game, I think they were more than generous to postpone opening presents until half time.) However, while most of the blame has gone to McCoys cowardice and/or Tebows ineptitude, Foxs playcalling this year has shown strong tendencies alarmingly reminiscent of Martyball, and I think we've all seen enough Browns, Chiefs and Chargers teams to know what that gets you. It gets you this line in your Wikipedia article:

problem with that line is that Fox has already coached a team in the Super Bowl

I would love to see Allen get shot as a HC but hey call me crazy, I'd rather see our current HC perform and Allen can get his shot later. this team was projected between 4 and 6 wins this year. Im happy with the progress and we've got too many glaring holes on this team to expect much more than where we're at. The wins in recent weeks have been a nice distraction but at the end of the day we've got a horrid back 4 even with Dawk on the field and a weak MLB.

SR
12-24-2011, 10:09 PM
I'm not really interested in what you have to say, sunbeam, as our offensive game planning and play calling are done by Mike McCoy, not John Fox. Thanks for coming. Bye bye now.

Locnar
12-24-2011, 10:15 PM
The Broncos are 8-7, and we're talking about their problem? :confused:

At the beginning of the season, weren't people wondering whether the Broncos would have a shot at Luck?

A lot of our wins were smoke and mirrors and aren't a true reflection of how bad we actually are. Especially on defense..

I still think we can build off this season and improve next year if we draft the right players.

boojustin
12-24-2011, 10:28 PM
Hi, I'm from South Carolina and observed Fox's career as coach of the panthers.

What you are seeing now is kind of an example of what you are going to have to expect if he is your coach.

He is going to have a good year, then next year it will be a bad year. I have no idea if you should consider this to be a good year, but that is his MO (except both of his last two years in Charlotte were bad).

Look his players love him. They did in Charlotte, and I'm positive they will in Denver.

The problem with him is he is just too innately conservative to ever have an effective offense, unless he is in one of those games where his team is just running over people.

Don't be fooled by the glimpses you've seen of Tebow running the spread option or how the Panthers ran the wildcat a lot one year (they may have been the team to start it, but I can't remember).

The man is just too innately conservative. He will never have a team capable of winning a superbowl in today's game unless he gets real lucky in the opponents he draws.

It's a shame. I have no personal dislike for him, I'm just calling it like I've seen it.

The reason why I'm posting here is I would like to see Tebow do well, and I'd also like to see the option game come to the NFL. This is the most boring league I've seen in my lifetime in a lot of ways.

I didn't watch your game with Buffalo, but I did watch the Patriots game. There was a moment in the first half, Denver had a 4 and under 1 I think, momentum, the Patriots hadn't done much on offense.

Fox punts. I actually laughed, because I knew that's what he would do.

I think this is your good year. I think next year you are going to see problems.

Look Tebow isn't stupid. He is a second year player that hasn't played a whole lot, and I'm not too sure how well he reads defenses. But that part will come I think.

He does not panic under pressure. He is very athletic, and can survive hits and make plays not many can. He has star power. He is a very hard worker. He will probably improve greatly in a regular offseason where he can work with the coaches.

Whether he will ever be accurate enough to put up big numbers in a traditional NFL offense is still up in the air though.

This year Denver should have embraced the spread option without apologies and just gone with it. I'm not sure you ever would have tried without Fox as coach, but I'm also not sure any other coach would have dialed it back so much when it was working.

Anyway I think Tebow's career in Denver is probably going to crash and burn. I have no idea what Elway thinks of him or anything of that sort.

But I've seen the Fox show too many times, and I know how it ends. He's kind of like Norv Turner that way.

And I think Tebow is going to wind up the scapegoat in the whole thing.

BOOM.

However, if you blame Fox, you're going to also have to blame Elway. Just my OPINION.

Fox makes people mold to him. Fox does not play to strengths. Fox is narrow minded and it may work one day, but it hasn't to date.

So Elway needs to see that and possibly find a coach to suit Tebow. If Elway does not see it, your franchise will be just like it has been for another 15 years. You only get opportunities like Tebow once in a blue moon.

We just have to leave it up to God for Tebow and ourselves.

I Eat Staples
12-24-2011, 10:30 PM
A lot of our wins were smoke and mirrors and aren't a true reflection of how bad we actually are. Especially on defense..

I still think we can build off this season and improve next year if we draft the right players.

That just supports the point that Fox is a good coach. He has us contending for the division with bad players.

camdisco24
12-24-2011, 10:31 PM
BOOM.

However, if you blame Fox, you're going to also have to blame Elway. Just my OPINION.

Fox makes people mold to him. Fox does not play to strengths. Fox is narrow minded and it may work one day, but it hasn't to date.

So Elway needs to see that and possibly find a coach to suit Tebow. If Elway does not see it, your franchise will be just like it has been for another 15 years. You only get opportunities like Tebow once in a blue moon.

We just have to leave it up to God for Tebow and ourselves.

You do realize Fox basically changed our entire offense to fit Tebow right?

jhildebrand
12-24-2011, 10:32 PM
Cardiac Cats in Carolina

His Bronco teams have been a bit cardiac as well. It may be his signature.

I went into this season, due to the lack of depth and overall talent, giving him and the FO a free pass. However, with them in this position, I would like to see some more creativity from him offensively even if it is only in playcalling.

TimHippo
12-24-2011, 10:33 PM
That just supports the point that Fox is a good coach. He has us contending for the division with bad players.

It also supports the point that McDummy left the franchise in ruins with his personnel decisions.

http://www.joshmcdanielssucks.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/kidcoach_12.png

camdisco24
12-24-2011, 10:36 PM
Cardiac Cats in Carolina

His Bronco teams have been a bit cardiac as well. It may be his signature.

I went into this season, due to the lack of depth and overall talent, giving him and the FO a free pass. However, with them in this position, I would like to see some more creativity from him offensively even if it is only in playcalling.

I agree. He already took the risk on Tebow, changed the offense, now he should have the guts to be creative and take some chances.

What does he have to lose at this point??

boojustin
12-24-2011, 10:37 PM
Hi,

Cam Newton's going to crash and burn with his fake smile.

The guy got kicked out from the Gators for cheating and the cheated his way onto Auburn. He's a disaster waiting to happen.

I've seen this kind of show too many times to know how it ends.

Apples and oranges. Why are you being so narrow minded? Fox is the problem. Therefore, your boy Elway is the problem since it's his hire. HOWEVER, Elway can cut Fox after the season and all will be well. You're not going to get another Tebow for another 15-20 years. If you want to blow it and dwell in NFL hell for the next 20 years, you'll bet the ranch on Fox instead of Tebow. Bad decision, as you know.

TimHippo
12-24-2011, 10:38 PM
Apples and oranges. Why are you being so narrow minded? Fox is the problem. Therefore, your boy Elway is the problem since it's his hire. HOWEVER, Elway can cut Fox after the season and all will be well. You're not going to get another Tebow for another 15-20 years. If you want to blow it and dwell in NFL hell for the next 20 years, you'll bet the ranch on Fox instead of Tebow. Bad decision, as you know.

You aren't making any sense.

Go away, Carolina fan.

Joel
12-24-2011, 10:42 PM
problem with that line is that Fox has already coached a team in the Super Bowl

I would love to see Allen get shot as a HC but hey call me crazy, I'd rather see our current HC perform and Allen can get his shot later. this team was projected between 4 and 6 wins this year. Im happy with the progress and we've got too many glaring holes on this team to expect much more than where we're at. The wins in recent weeks have been a nice distraction but at the end of the day we've got a horrid back 4 even with Dawk on the field and a weak MLB.
To be fair, "keep it close so luck rather than skill decides the game" probably DOES make sense for us nowm, no better than we are. However, it will make less and less sense the better we get.

Guess what OTHER team Fox coached to 3 OT victories. The same one he coached to a FOURTH OT victory on their way to the Super Bowl, where they lost to the Pats. I'm not saying take lots of chances all the time, but perhaps a couple more calculated gambles at opportune times might have gotten Fox a Super Bowl win instead of a loss by a FG.

Looking back over Foxs 9 years in Carolina is interesting, but not terribly encouraging. He only had 3 seasons above .500:

1) The aforementioned '03 season, where his 11-5 NFC Champs would've been 8-8 without the 3 OT wins,

2) The 2005 team that was 11-5 but reached the NFC Championship before getting stomped by Seattle and

3) The 2008 team that was 12-4 and among the many victims of the first 9-7 team to play a Super Bowl.

When Arizona went to Carolina in the playoffs, keeping the score close so one or two fluke plays could beat a better a team made sense for them, but for Carolina it just meant letting an inferior team hang around long enough to sneak away with a lucky win at the end. Looking back over Foxs nine years in Carolina there aren't a lot of Panthers blowouts (the 12-4 team managed TWO, which may be an all time high for a Fox season:)
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/car/2008.htm

Keeping it close makes sense if 1) you know your opponents are far more talented and/or 2) capable of a blowout. If the shoe's on the other foot, bury them early, taking their running game out of the picture and forcing them to make many desperate passes you know are coming. The Colts kept it close on Thursday, even though they trailed most of the game and never led--until the final minute. The Texans surely regret that deeply now.

For now it may well make sense to keep it close enough that a few good plays in "Tebow Time" can win the game; our record certainly supports that argument, because all our losses with Tebow have been slaughters. Of course, that there have been three of them now indicates that luck can be a fickle mistress even against bad teams like Buffalo; if/when we have the talent for it, we're better off with a comfortable 30 point lead by whatever means is most effective. The past decade does not demonstrate Fox is willing or able to for the kill shot when it's there.

Which brings us back to the Super Bowl, which probably left many Carolina fans wondering the same thing many Denver fans have wondered this year: What might have been if Fox had unleashed his offense sooner...?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXXVIII

boojustin
12-24-2011, 10:44 PM
I posted a similar thread based on less first hand observation a week or two ago, when I saw an article online about Fox being the only coach in NFL history to win 3+ OT games in separate seasons. That's a pretty amazing stat when you consider the NFL's had OT rules for half a century.

The thing about keeping it close is that it doesn't inherently favor one team over or another; what it ultimately favors more than anything is LUCK. Everyone knows a close game can be decided by a single fluke play; that's nearly dog team coaches go into nearly EVERY game saying their game plan is to "keep it close and win at the end." That statement is an implicit admission that, not only is the other team MUCH better than yours, but you're well aware of that fact, realize that they'll beat your brains out in any kind of conventional game. How often has anyone heard a really good coach say his game plan is to keep the game close and win at the end? The Pats, Saints, Pack, '49ers and Texans don't play like that. Even the Ravens and Steelers don't; they play for LOW SCORING games, but those are not the same as CLOSE games.

Broncos fans, know that feeling you get EVERY WEEK, where you're on the edge of your seat all game because ONE blown play either way could decide the final? That's why no coach with any sense plays that way unless he has no other choice. It's a great way for a blocked FG (like against Chicago,) onside kick (like against Miami) or TD punt return (like against Oakland) to let a bad team beat a good team. Good teams like to go out and bury their opponents early so preserving victory requires no more than avoiding a sustained series of screw ups to preserve victory (of course, if you're the Dallas Cowboys that may be too great a challenge in itself.)

I was having Christmas dinner with family, so I didn't get to see all of todays game and can't comment on all of it (considering I was the only one who cared about the game, I think they were more than generous to postpone opening presents until half time.) However, while most of the blame has gone to McCoys cowardice and/or Tebows ineptitude, Foxs playcalling this year has shown strong tendencies alarmingly reminiscent of Martyball, and I think we've all seen enough Browns, Chiefs and Chargers teams to know what that gets you. It gets you this line in your Wikipedia article:

We quit running the option a month ago because that's about the time it stopped working. It was particularly bad against the Bears, when Urlacher was hitting Tebow a LOT, as both passer and runner, because the MLB was invented to deal with QBs who ran as often as they passed, becoming their natural counterpart. Sticking "read" on the front of the option doesn't make it any newer or different than it was in 1960. It works when guys blow assignments and/or lack the speed to stick with the QB and RB and/or the strength to tackle them. You can get away with that in college because most teams don't face more than a couple teams all year immune to ALL those weaknesses, but in the NFL pretty much NO ONE has those flaws, and option just doesn't work consistently against any but the worst teams.

Now, spread formation with a QB who runs AND passes well has a lot more potential, because it actually DOES provide the versatility, creativity and deception the option claims (saying "we'll ALWAYS run the QB OR the RB, but you don't know which!" isn't versatile, creative or deceptive.) The option is, more often than not, a disaster. We quit running it when it started producing 5 yard losses more often than not, and that's not conservatism or liberalism, it's just basic integer math.

As I said, I didn't get to see all the game, but the criticisms of consecutive passes I've seen are of second half play calling, when we were down by 10+ the whole time and they were stuffing our run. It sounds a lot like "only pass if you MUST," which is vintage Martyball predictable enough for even average teams to beat handily.

As long as what you've stated here is beneficial to winning with Tebow, I agree with you. I don't even have to stress myself out by reading your entire post. I try to get to the point where my statement is obvious rather quickly. That certainly doesn't mean i'm better than you. If anything, it proves you're better at foreplay. Women love foreplay. Of course, when it comes down to the actual sex, I am the best. But that doesn't mean women want that. You bring something to the table just as I do. We're brothers and I love you.

boojustin
12-24-2011, 10:47 PM
I'm not really interested in what you have to say, sunbeam, as our offensive game planning and play calling are done by Mike McCoy, not John Fox. Thanks for coming. Bye bye now.

You're acting ignorant and I know you're not. Any plays made under Fox's regime are labeled and ARE Fox's calls. As the head coach, you make the final decision. You make sure the coordinator knows the game plan and you tell him to execute it. If you don't know the game plan and you can't plan it, you're a lame duck coach. Fox is a lame duck coach.

Joel
12-24-2011, 10:50 PM
As long as what you've stated here is beneficial to winning with Tebow, I agree with you. I don't even have to stress myself out by reading your entire post. I try to get to the point where my statement is obvious rather quickly. That certainly doesn't mean i'm better than you. If anything, it proves you're better at foreplay. Women love foreplay. Of course, when it comes down to the actual sex, I am the best. But that doesn't mean women want that. You bring something to the table just as I do. We're brothers and I love you.
You're very sweet, but my heart belongs to tebowtime5502. ;)

camdisco24
12-24-2011, 10:52 PM
You're acting ignorant and I know you're not. Any plays made under Fox's regime are labeled and ARE Fox's calls. As the head coach, you make the final decision. You make sure the coordinator knows the game plan and you tell him to execute it. If you don't know the game plan and you can't plan it, you're a lame duck coach. Fox is a lame duck coach.

Welcome back Tebowtime5501/Jimmer.

It'll be nice to see your third account banned. Good try though.

boojustin
12-24-2011, 10:53 PM
You do realize Fox basically changed our entire offense to fit Tebow right?

No, I didn't realize that. Tebow's strengths aren't being exploited. Tebow is a much better passer than Fox and Elway give him credit for. Run run pass is not setting any QB up for success. Tebow is a great passer when given protection, just like any QB that has ever played the game. Run run pass guarantees the defense knows exactly what's going to take place and that makes it twice as difficult to execute. The play calling has been horrendous. Then, when they finally wake up, Denver is down 10+ points and the offense becomes even more predictable.

Don't hide from the light.

Jesus loves you.

sunbeam
12-24-2011, 11:02 PM
I'm not here to pick a fight. I'm not from Colorado and have nothing more than a mild fondness for the Broncos (I really liked them in the Red Miller era; I haven't gotten into them since).

My pro team isn't the Panthers (it's been the Packers since Holmgren), but we get their game on TV every week here without fail.

I really don't have much to say, other than you are going to find out for yourselves.

SR
12-24-2011, 11:06 PM
I'm not really interested in what you have to say, sunbeam, as our offensive game planning and play calling are done by Mike McCoy, not John Fox. Thanks for coming. Bye bye now.

You're acting ignorant and I know you're not. Any plays made under Fox's regime are labeled and ARE Fox's calls. As the head coach, you make the final decision. You make sure the coordinator knows the game plan and you tell him to execute it. If you don't know the game plan and you can't plan it, you're a lame duck coach. Fox is a lame duck coach.

I'd hardly call Fox a lame duck coach. He's done more with less than any other coach I can think of. And yeah, I'm acting ignorant because I think it's ignorant of some tool to come to our boards and try to tell us what he thinks he knows.

MOtorboat
12-24-2011, 11:06 PM
No, I didn't realize that. Tebow's strengths aren't being exploited. Tebow is a much better passer than Fox and Elway give him credit for. Run run pass is not setting any QB up for success. Tebow is a great passer when given protection, just like any QB that has ever played the game. Run run pass guarantees the defense knows exactly what's going to take place and that makes it twice as difficult to execute. The play calling has been horrendous. Then, when they finally wake up, Denver is down 10+ points and the offense becomes even more predictable.

Don't hide from the light.

Jesus loves you.

No. Tebow is not a good passer and there is obviously good reasons why they try to keep him from throwing.

Four interceptions? Legitimately three, with one in question whether it was a fumble or INT? That is not good.

sneakers
12-24-2011, 11:08 PM
Nononnono

SR
12-24-2011, 11:08 PM
I'm not here to pick a fight. I'm not from Colorado and have nothing more than a mild fondness for the Broncos (I really liked them in the Red Miller era; I haven't gotten into them since).

My pro team isn't the Panthers (it's been the Packers since Holmgren), but we get their game on TV every week here without fail.

I really don't have much to say, other than you are going to find out for yourselves.

Are you ******* for real right now? You aren't even a kittens fan and you're coming here trying to tell us about Fox?!

sunbeam
12-24-2011, 11:11 PM
Are you ******* for real right now? You aren't even a kittens fan and you're coming here trying to tell us about Fox?!

Yes I am.

And in couple of years you are going to be saying the same things.

I Eat Staples
12-24-2011, 11:32 PM
It also supports the point that McDummy left the franchise in ruins with his personnel decisions.

http://www.joshmcdanielssucks.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/kidcoach_12.png

I think that's been obvious for a long time.

boojustin
12-24-2011, 11:42 PM
I think that's been obvious for a long time.

I think it's obvious that McDaniels was let go too soon and has actually left your Broncos with a franchise QB that can win multiple superbowls. However, you have to support what you have and what you have is, a lame duck coach and a bad decision maker in John Elway.

Hopefully Tebow gets his fair shake like Elway got during his career and is currently getting as a decision maker.

jhildebrand
12-25-2011, 12:01 AM
It also supports the point that McDummy left the franchise in ruins with his personnel decisions.

http://www.joshmcdanielssucks.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/kidcoach_12.png


I think that's been obvious for a long time.

I think David Bruton clearly demonstrates that. He came in for Q. Carter and promptly showed just how far ahead of him the rookie is.

boojustin
12-25-2011, 12:08 AM
I think David Bruton clearly demonstrates that. He came in for Q. Carter and promptly showed just how far ahead of him the rookie is.

Yes i'm a rookie on these boards, but that certainly doesn't mean I don't tell the truth. I am only trying to help you. I'm not some super intellectual, i'm just a truth teller.

Locnar
12-25-2011, 12:15 AM
That just supports the point that Fox is a good coach. He has us contending for the division with bad players.

I agree. I like what Fox has done so far. I just wish a certain someone wasn't calling plays on offense right now...

I don't necessarily agree Fox has "fixed" our defense though, because you can see what an impact Dawkins is back there. Without him we have been garbage. Not saying he is the only reason our defense did good earlier, but for some reason when he's on the field we all the sudden remember how to tackle. Hopefully we can get some impact players where one of them will fill a leadership role for that defense. Some Alpha hound that will lift our db's adrenaline so they can stick a running back with a clean tackle that actually puts them to the ground..

BroncoStud
12-25-2011, 01:13 AM
I was very vocal at my displeasure with the hiring of John Fox in the offseason...

I was also wrong. It is my opinion that Fox has done a very good job getting the mentality of this franchise headed back in the right direction. He has molded his team to their talents and put his own ego aside in doing so.

I tend to believe that we just aren't that good, at all. We won some games we shouldn't have because teams weren't prepared for Tebow in the 4th quarter running the spread. We got good bounces, it went our way. But the cracks were there. Goodman's game-saving TD against Sanchez after he had been abused all day. Goodman's interception against Ponder after he had been abused all day. The Dolphins onside kick recovery... Prater's 59 yard FG to tie it in regulation against the Bears. Marion Barber's meltdown...

It all made for great drama and even better television but it was never sustainable.

So now that the Broncos have lost a few games and people are jumping off of bridges and throwing enough shit against the wall in hopes that something sticks.

This is a team that has overachieved and has a lot of good pieces in place to do good things in the coming years. IF we happen to make the playoffs then that would be awesome, but we really aren't a legit playoff team, no one in the AFC West is.

And for those who suddenly want to replace Tim Tebow, think about this... The Bill intercepted Tom F'ing Brady 4 times in a game this year as well and their defense has games where it plays lights out. Not to mention, WHO WOULD BE BETTER? Who could we draft that is better? Shouldn't we worry about building the defense so guys like Gerhart, Ponder, and Spiller don't gash us at will? Lay off the crackpipes and enjoy reality for a minute or two.

topscribe
12-25-2011, 02:56 AM
I agree. He already took the risk on Tebow, changed the offense, now he should have the guts to be creative and take some chances.

What does he have to lose at this point??

Maybe he realizes he doesn't have the personnel? :whoknows:

VonSackemMiller
12-25-2011, 03:42 AM
I was very vocal at my displeasure with the hiring of John Fox in the offseason...

I was also wrong. It is my opinion that Fox has done a very good job getting the mentality of this franchise headed back in the right direction. He has molded his team to their talents and put his own ego aside in doing so.

I tend to believe that we just aren't that good, at all. We won some games we shouldn't have because teams weren't prepared for Tebow in the 4th quarter running the spread. We got good bounces, it went our way. But the cracks were there. Goodman's game-saving TD against Sanchez after he had been abused all day. Goodman's interception against Ponder after he had been abused all day. The Dolphins onside kick recovery... Prater's 59 yard FG to tie it in regulation against the Bears. Marion Barber's meltdown...

It all made for great drama and even better television but it was never sustainable.

So now that the Broncos have lost a few games and people are jumping off of bridges and throwing enough shit against the wall in hopes that something sticks.

This is a team that has overachieved and has a lot of good pieces in place to do good things in the coming years. IF we happen to make the playoffs then that would be awesome, but we really aren't a legit playoff team, no one in the AFC West is.

And for those who suddenly want to replace Tim Tebow, think about this... The Bill intercepted Tom F'ing Brady 4 times in a game this year as well and their defense has games where it plays lights out. Not to mention, WHO WOULD BE BETTER? Who could we draft that is better? Shouldn't we worry about building the defense so guys like Gerhart, Ponder, and Spiller don't gash us at will? Lay off the crackpipes and enjoy reality for a minute or two.

Thats called making plays, It what there paid to do. I still like this team if we get back to what we do best, Read option blended with some traditional stuff. run the ball and play actionn pass.

Sinthor
12-25-2011, 06:44 AM
I love the part about people jumping off of bridges. Way to spin the words.

Yes people forget that first, ANY NFL team is very dangerous on any given day and that the Bills shocked so many people early in the year. It happens with teams. The Dolphins have a terrible record but who wants to play them right now?

Bottom line this Broncos team was expected to do the same as last year or maybe a TAD better based on their schedule, 3rd toughest in the league as the season began. I for one will take 8-8 ANY day over 4-12. People who complained about 8-8 and 9-7 under Shanny didn't know what they were missing until last year, did they? :)

This team will be fine after another draft or two. They're already competitive. I AM a bit concerned with some of the ultra conservative calls but I'll give them a pass since its their first season and they're also trying some very new (to the NFL) techniques on offense. I'm going to assume that Fox went that way in Carolina because of his personnel. Otherwise it's surprising for Elway to hire someone like that when he's been so vocal about how Reeves being too conservative MADE him have to have all of those comeback games that they could have otherwise won earlier. We'll see. At worst I'd expect that if Elway sees that kind of thing going on he'd simply not renew Fox's contract in three years and thank him for turning the ship around before going to get a more risk taking kind of guy.

SR
12-25-2011, 07:55 AM
Yes I am.

And in couple of years you are going to be saying the same things.

You, sir, are high. I watched Josh McDaniels destroy my team. Fox is a godsend compared to that lunatic.

SR
12-25-2011, 07:55 AM
I think it's obvious that McDaniels was let go too soon and has actually left your Broncos with a franchise QB that can win multiple superbowls. However, you have to support what you have and what you have is, a lame duck coach and a bad decision maker in John Elway.

Hopefully Tebow gets his fair shake like Elway got during his career and is currently getting as a decision maker.

You high fived your own post. That's pretty much all that needs to be said. Troll.

Dean
12-25-2011, 09:37 AM
Maybe he realizes he doesn't have the personnel? :whoknows:

Come on Top. Surely the obvious answer can't be the correct one.;) If you can draw it up in X's and O's, the Broncos can make any visualization into a reality.:D

Fullback32
12-25-2011, 01:51 PM
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing015.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)
Tebow is a much better passer than Fox and Elway give him credit for.

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing025.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php) http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing021.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php) http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing024.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php) http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing001.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php) http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing013.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

BroncoStud
12-25-2011, 02:30 PM
Thats called making plays, It what there paid to do. I still like this team if we get back to what we do best, Read option blended with some traditional stuff. run the ball and play actionn pass.

Making plays lol... After getting lit up almost every week Goodman gets lucky that 2 bad QBs make horrible reads and throws right into his hands...

You call it making plays and I will keep calling it what it is... Absolute LUCK and 100% unsustainable.

VonSackemMiller
12-25-2011, 11:41 PM
Making plays lol... After getting lit up almost every week Goodman gets lucky that 2 bad QBs make horrible reads and throws right into his hands...

You call it making plays and I will keep calling it what it is... Absolute LUCK and 100% unsustainable.

The play vs ponder goodman actually acted like he was gonna take the underneath reciever and then floated back into the deeper reciever very smooth. Thats making plays, How many times do we see a corner back drop that easy int? and get mad at them, He made a play,

MOtorboat
12-25-2011, 11:53 PM
The play vs ponder goodman actually acted like he was gonna take the underneath reciever and then floated back into the deeper reciever very smooth. Thats making plays, How many times do we see a corner back drop that easy int? and get mad at them, He made a play,

Corners are easy targets and their job is not one I envy. Goodman and Harris have done a decent job, not great but serviceable job, all season.

camdisco24
12-25-2011, 11:55 PM
Maybe he realizes he doesn't have the personnel? :whoknows:

Exactly... so what does he have to lose?????

Shazam!
12-26-2011, 12:27 AM
Fox makes people mold to him. Fox does not play to strengths. Fox is narrow minded and it may work one day, but it hasn't to date.

Run option. Tebow. Nice try.

topscribe
12-26-2011, 01:23 AM
Exactly... so what does he have to lose?????

Aren't they fighting for a playoff spot?

Elevation inc
12-26-2011, 07:49 AM
Mccoy and our scheme have been figured out, we have a crappy OL, and we still think we can run down peoples throats, the problem is our OL, mccoys playcalling resulting in constant 3rd and very long, resulting in dialing up a deep throw to recivers that have struggled all year seperating consitently and beating the jam, and tebow tryin to force things cause he has no option to run or pass, since DE's are [playing smarter now to keep him inside....the defense is old and tired legs are starting to show, we also have a forced desire to keep miller in as a DL in nickel situations resulting in teams gashing our nickel cause of poor tackling and scheme. the nickle look is killing us most of the game and allowing opponents to stay close to us.....our hurting secondary and piss poor tackling by safties is also not helping. We are a smoke and mirrors team, that suprised opponents and got by on pure determination and grit, and fighting spirit(tebow helped this in a big way, as did the vets) we are improving and are a ways from the last 2 years horrible outings, but both OL(big time) and DL need work, we need a #1 WR that can consistently beat the jam, a legit RB who aint 30, and a legit #2 cb across from bailey cause goodman is on a serious downslide. 2 safties that can tackle would be nice to. We have issues, But we are fighting hard to stay alive.....good things will happen this year or next as a whole, but we still have a tough road ahead of us. I expect to get smashed by pitt even if we beat KC, becasue I belive mccoy will think our Weak OL is capable of running it down pitts mouth which will hurt us with constant 3rd and longs, and Pitts 2 fast smaller recivers will work underneath all game destroying our safties and Lb's....I see it now woodyard matchde up on wallace or something...lol.....The good news is that we are on a upswing and need to just keep adding talent. The bad news is our smoke and mirrors schemes on both sides have been figured out much like 2008/2009 choke years. Hopefully we have a coach, QB, and vets who will make the plays and adjustments neccessary next week.

SR
12-26-2011, 09:08 AM
The play vs ponder goodman actually acted like he was gonna take the underneath reciever and then floated back into the deeper reciever very smooth. Thats making plays, How many times do we see a corner back drop that easy int? and get mad at them, He made a play,

He made a great play that time, but IMO his many shitty plays outweigh his few good ones.

VonSackemMiller
12-28-2011, 06:57 AM
Mccoy and our scheme have been figured out, we have a crappy OL, and we still think we can run down peoples throats, the problem is our OL, mccoys playcalling resulting in constant 3rd and very long, resulting in dialing up a deep throw to recivers that have struggled all year seperating consitently and beating the jam, and tebow tryin to force things cause he has no option to run or pass, since DE's are [playing smarter now to keep him inside....the defense is old and tired legs are starting to show, we also have a forced desire to keep miller in as a DL in nickel situations resulting in teams gashing our nickel cause of poor tackling and scheme. the nickle look is killing us most of the game and allowing opponents to stay close to us.....our hurting secondary and piss poor tackling by safties is also not helping. We are a smoke and mirrors team, that suprised opponents and got by on pure determination and grit, and fighting spirit(tebow helped this in a big way, as did the vets) we are improving and are a ways from the last 2 years horrible outings, but both OL(big time) and DL need work, we need a #1 WR that can consistently beat the jam, a legit RB who aint 30, and a legit #2 cb across from bailey cause goodman is on a serious downslide. 2 safties that can tackle would be nice to. We have issues, But we are fighting hard to stay alive.....good things will happen this year or next as a whole, but we still have a tough road ahead of us. I expect to get smashed by pitt even if we beat KC, becasue I belive mccoy will think our Weak OL is capable of running it down pitts mouth which will hurt us with constant 3rd and longs, and Pitts 2 fast smaller recivers will work underneath all game destroying our safties and Lb's....I see it now woodyard matchde up on wallace or something...lol.....The good news is that we are on a upswing and need to just keep adding talent. The bad news is our smoke and mirrors schemes on both sides have been figured out much like 2008/2009 choke years. Hopefully we have a coach, QB, and vets who will make the plays and adjustments neccessary next week.

this OL is far from crappy, they are the youngest OL in the nfl and theyve done a good job, There not all the way there yet but there getting there.

VonSackemMiller
12-28-2011, 06:58 AM
He made a great play that time, but IMO his many shitty plays outweigh his few good ones.

I agree i sure as hell want him replaced, I was simply pointing out that he has made his share of plays but he sure has givin up alot more. Gonna need him this weekend though.

Elevation inc
12-28-2011, 10:02 AM
this OL is far from crappy, they are the youngest OL in the nfl and theyve done a good job, There not all the way there yet but there getting there.

right the 30th ranked OL out of 32 teams isnt crappy at all, not having a single player grade in green for the season at profootball focus.com, yeah that aint crappy either.....


I have about had it with a fan base that thinks our OL is playing good this year....they didnt play good for orton or moreno last year, and they havent played good for orton this year or tebow. Tebows and mcghaees running skills combined with a insane scheme defenses havent had a clue about....is why we lead the league in rushing it has very little to do with a OL ranked 30th in the league.....

our OL sucks, if its me I look to move franklin to LG where he freaking belongs....he instantly upgrades Zane beadles in a huge way as a run blocker, replace walton ASAP as he is the worst in the league at his position as a starter and find a new RT, then you will see improvement.....untill that happens we will continue to struggle on offense with any qb and rb....gimmicks can only take you so far, seee MCd's passing offense, and this new run scheme of ours..we done got figured the f out, why cant people see that crap......untill you have OL players that can win man on man battles and consistently dominate blockers at the second level then you wont have a good offense.....also backs who can stay healthy and WR's that can beat the line jam would help to....A qb not forcing things to be a pocket qb would help to....

catfish
12-28-2011, 10:08 AM
right the 30th ranked OL out of 32 teams isnt crappy at all, not having a single player grade in green for the season at profootball focus.com, yeah that aint crappy either.....


I have about had it with a fan base that thinks our OL is playing good this year....they didnt play good for orton or moreno last year, and they havent played good for orton this year or tebow. Tebows and mcghaees running skills combined with a insane scheme defenses havent had a clue about....is why we lead the league in rushing it has very little to do with a OL ranked 30th in the league.....

our OL sucks, if its me I look to move franklin to LG where he freaking belongs....he instantly upgrades Zane beadles in a huge way as a run blocker, replace walton ASAP as he is the worst in the league at his position as a starter and find a new RT, then you will see improvement.....untill that happens we will continue to struggle on offense with any qb and rb....gimmicks can only take you so far, seee MCd's passing offense, and this new run scheme of ours..we done got figured the f out, why cant people see that crap......untill you have OL players that can win man on man battles and consistently dominate blockers at the second level then you wont have a good offense.....also backs who can stay healthy and WR's that can beat the line jam would help to....A qb not forcing things to be a pocket qb would help to....

also actually having a pocket helps to make a better pocket QB

camdisco24
12-28-2011, 12:24 PM
Aren't they fighting for a playoff spot?

Yes but as you stated, he "doesn't have the personnel"... So why not take some chances and try to get into the playoffs in a year that no one expected it? He's done so much with so little, so why not???

yuhateme80
12-28-2011, 12:45 PM
Don't know how people say fox makes people mold to him he went to read option for tebow not because he wanted to fox has done a great job

vandammage13
12-28-2011, 12:54 PM
right the 30th ranked OL out of 32 teams isnt crappy at all, not having a single player grade in green for the season at profootball focus.com, yeah that aint crappy either.....


I have about had it with a fan base that thinks our OL is playing good this year....they didnt play good for orton or moreno last year, and they havent played good for orton this year or tebow. Tebows and mcghaees running skills combined with a insane scheme defenses havent had a clue about....is why we lead the league in rushing it has very little to do with a OL ranked 30th in the league.....

our OL sucks, if its me I look to move franklin to LG where he freaking belongs....he instantly upgrades Zane beadles in a huge way as a run blocker, replace walton ASAP as he is the worst in the league at his position as a starter and find a new RT, then you will see improvement.....untill that happens we will continue to struggle on offense with any qb and rb....gimmicks can only take you so far, seee MCd's passing offense, and this new run scheme of ours..we done got figured the f out, why cant people see that crap......untill you have OL players that can win man on man battles and consistently dominate blockers at the second level then you wont have a good offense.....also backs who can stay healthy and WR's that can beat the line jam would help to....A qb not forcing things to be a pocket qb would help to....

Read option or not, we don't lead the league in rushing with a shitty O-line...

The pass protection does leave a lot to be desired, but the O-line is doing a pretty darn good job at run blocking.

I do agree we would be better served moving Franklin inside and getting a better RT, but this is more for pass protection than run blocking, IMO.

NightTerror218
12-28-2011, 01:18 PM
You do realize Fox basically changed our entire offense to fit Tebow right?

Now Tebow just needs the supporting cast around him to get better. Like another good RB, FB, TEs and WRs.

NightTerror218
12-28-2011, 01:21 PM
also actually having a pocket helps to make a better pocket QB

A QB getting sacked 3 times, hit 6 times and hurried 14 times in the beginning of the 4th quarter does not show he has a lot of time in the pocket. Those are mostly passing plays and a few option plays. OL is not very good. Buffalo/Patriots owned our OL.

Npba900
12-28-2011, 02:05 PM
BOOM.

However, if you blame Fox, you're going to also have to blame Elway. Just my OPINION.

Fox makes people mold to him. Fox does not play to strengths. Fox is narrow minded and it may work one day, but it hasn't to date.

So Elway needs to see that and possibly find a coach to suit Tebow. If Elway does not see it, your franchise will be just like it has been for another 15 years. You only get opportunities like Tebow once in a blue moon.

We just have to leave it up to God for Tebow and ourselves.

Leave it up to GOD N TEBOW! Meh! now I've heard everything! or haven't I?

Fox and Elway have given Tebow the chance of a life time to one--START--in the NFL over 10 games; and two---allow T2 to get use to the speed of the NFL and valuable experience thru the use of the Spread-Option offense.

However, do not blind yourself into foolishly believing that Fox-Elway are going to waste the next 5 years drafting players to build a spread Offense that suits Tebow's limited-offensive skill set.

Now, no doubt T2 will enter the 2012 season as the starting QB. However, ultimately Tebow must enter into training camp next July showing he has made great strides of improvement from the 2011, with regards to his footwork, throwing consistencies, and passing accuracy from within the POCKET!. Tebow must show a marked improvement from 2011's passing pct of 48.8 percent to at least 58-60 pct., or doubts will continue to linger on whether Tebow is the long term solution/franchise QB.

Elevation inc
12-28-2011, 04:34 PM
Read option or not, we don't lead the league in rushing with a shitty O-line...

The pass protection does leave a lot to be desired, but the O-line is doing a pretty darn good job at run blocking.

I do agree we would be better served moving Franklin inside and getting a better RT, but this is more for pass protection than run blocking, IMO.

im really not sure what your watching then.....belive what you want, pure tape and true statistics dont lie.....our OL is horrible and ranked 30th in the league, fyi MCghaee also has 300 plus yds after contact thats like 3rd in the nfl, mcghaee makes the OL look far better than they really are, not to mention most of tebwos damage is done on outside runs or broken assignemnet inside. it has nothing to do with stellar blocking by the OL either.....our OL cant run block and cant pass block for crap, combine that with kuper being inconsistent, franklin being a rookie and clady having his worst year as a pro i get the issues, what i dont get though is waltons failure to hold the point of attack all year except for 2 games the jets and raiders, and beadles having 1 good game out of 15 all year, thats a big problem. also kupers inconsistency after what was a steallar pre-season pisses me off, after we just staright paid the man


personally i wouldnt mind breaking the bank for chris meyers from the texans or drafting Decastro in rd 1.....

horsepig
12-28-2011, 05:47 PM
Yep. It all starts up front, ask The 49's.

sunbeam
12-28-2011, 05:55 PM
Leave it up to GOD N TEBOW! Meh! now I've heard everything! or haven't I?

Fox and Elway have given Tebow the chance of a life time to one--START--in the NFL over 10 games; and two---allow T2 to get use to the speed of the NFL and valuable experience thru the use of the Spread-Option offense.

However, do not blind yourself into foolishly believing that Fox-Elway are going to waste the next 5 years drafting players to build a spread Offense that suits Tebow's limited-offensive skill set.

Now, no doubt T2 will enter the 2012 season as the starting QB. However, ultimately Tebow must enter into training camp next July showing he has made great strides of improvement from the 2011, with regards to his footwork, throwing consistencies, and passing accuracy from within the POCKET!. Tebow must show a marked improvement from 2011's passing pct of 48.8 percent to at least 58-60 pct., or doubts will continue to linger on whether Tebow is the long term solution/franchise QB.

I think you see things a certain way.

I think I mentioned earlier in this thread I'm mostly neutral as far as the broncos go.

Look trade Tebow. Release him. Whatever.

I just hope that the team that picks him up is willing to totally commit to the spread.

You've seen the results of this season, and think it is a fluke. I think you guys messed up by pulling back.

McGahee doesn't have the year he's having if you hadn't adopted this offense. Your defense doesn't have the year they are having without the time of possession the spread gives them (though I will give Fox this, he almost always has a good defensive team).

Look I know you aren't broncos management but whatever. It doesn't have to be Tebow even to prove this offense in the NFL. There are a lot of other guys out there that would do better with this than the traditional NFL offense.

Hopefully Tebow has a nice career in Denver. If he doesn't I hope he has one somewhere else.

If it takes Andrew Luck to make you happy, I hope you get Andrew Luck.

As an outside observer though, I think you guys are guilty of timidity (or perhaps stupidity).

Run this experiment through it's course. There is an outside chance you run the playoffs and make the superbowl (I'm not joking, that Patriots game could easily have gone another way). I'm not sure how you match up with the packers, but a 49'ers/Denver game would be epic.

And a hell of a lot more fun to watch than Packers/Steeler II. (or Packers/Patriots) I just don't know how much more announcers' slobbing Aaron Rogers' knob I can take. (and I am a Packers fan)

What's the worst case if you try it all out next year? Right now you aren't in a position to draft an elite quarterback. You might give up the farm and get someone in a trade. If it turns out that there is no way, no how the spread will work in the nfl you'll be in a better position to draft the quarterback you want after next year.

The best case is you are a very good team.

Cugel
12-29-2011, 04:30 PM
We quit running the option a month ago because that's about the time it stopped working. It was particularly bad against the Bears, when Urlacher was hitting Tebow a LOT, as both passer and runner, because the MLB was invented to deal with QBs who ran as often as they passed, becoming their natural counterpart. Sticking "read" on the front of the option doesn't make it any newer or different than it was in 1960. It works when guys blow assignments and/or lack the speed to stick with the QB and RB and/or the strength to tackle them. You can get away with that in college because most teams don't face more than a couple teams all year immune to ALL those weaknesses, but in the NFL pretty much NO ONE has those flaws, and option just doesn't work consistently against any but the worst teams.

Now, spread formation with a QB who runs AND passes well has a lot more potential, because it actually DOES provide the versatility, creativity and deception the option claims (saying "we'll ALWAYS run the QB OR the RB, but you don't know which!" isn't versatile, creative or deceptive.) The option is, more often than not, a disaster. We quit running it when it started producing 5 yard losses more often than not, and that's not conservatism or liberalism, it's just basic integer math.


Neither the spread nor the option works for long for the very same reason: starting with the Bears teams started saying: "OK, we're going to let you get that 8 yard run or dump-off pass, but every time Tebow leaves the pocket with the ball in his hands we're going to hammer him. You might get some first downs in the first quarter, but keep it up and you're going to get your QB killed."

The spread puts a premium on getting rid of the ball and out of the QB's hands in a HURRY. Unfortunately Tebow is the opposite of Dan Marino in that regard. He just can't get rid of the ball quickly and make accurate timing throws.

All those hits were piling up all too often for Fox's liking. Hence Tebow goes to a more traditional passing offense, with some runs mixed in. That's what he's going to have to learn to run anyway so it's a good idea to start now.

Tebow like every other QB in the NFL will have to learn to throw accurately from under center. He's made some progress, but then he has a horrible game like against the Bills.

jlarsiii
12-29-2011, 06:07 PM
What's the worst case if you try it all out next year? Right now you aren't in a position to draft an elite quarterback. You might give up the farm and get someone in a trade. If it turns out that there is no way, no how the spread will work in the nfl you'll be in a better position to draft the quarterback you want after next year.

The best case is you are a very good team.

Worst case for next year is having Tebow regress, suffering through what could be a very brutal season, and then being in position to draft Barkley if he doesn't regress during his last season at USC. That is my guess anyway

NightTerror218
12-29-2011, 07:47 PM
Neither the spread nor the option works for long for the very same reason: starting with the Bears teams started saying: "OK, we're going to let you get that 8 yard run or dump-off pass, but every time Tebow leaves the pocket with the ball in his hands we're going to hammer him. You might get some first downs in the first quarter, but keep it up and you're going to get your QB killed."

The spread puts a premium on getting rid of the ball and out of the QB's hands in a HURRY. Unfortunately Tebow is the opposite of Dan Marino in that regard. He just can't get rid of the ball quickly and make accurate timing throws.

All those hits were piling up all too often for Fox's liking. Hence Tebow goes to a more traditional passing offense, with some runs mixed in. That's what he's going to have to learn to run anyway so it's a good idea to start now.

Tebow like every other QB in the NFL will have to learn to throw accurately from under center. He's made some progress, but then he has a horrible game like against the Bills.

I dont think so. I think Fox just wanted to move into a more traditional offense with Tebow and used the option/spread to break Tebow into speed of game and reading defenses. But I dont think Fox is scared of hits right now. Tebow is not coming out sore or anything after these games and the worst hits are in the pocket. I see/heard no proof of that. Before that game Broncos were going more traditional offense.

MOtorboat
12-29-2011, 10:24 PM
I dont think so. I think Fox just wanted to move into a more traditional offense with Tebow and used the option/spread to break Tebow into speed of game and reading defenses. But I dont think Fox is scared of hits right now. Tebow is not coming out sore or anything after these games and the worst hits are in the pocket. I see/heard no proof of that. Before that game Broncos were going more traditional offense.

Average career of a running back, 3 years. Of course he's worried. Tebow should be aware of this as well. He cannot, no matter how much his rabid following wants, be a running quarterback first.

BroncoJoe
12-29-2011, 10:25 PM
Average career of a running back, 3 years. Of course he's worried. Tebow should be aware of this as well. He cannot, no matter how much his rabid following wants, be a running quarterback first.

Those numbers are thrown around so much it makes me want to throw up.

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MOtorboat
12-29-2011, 10:28 PM
Those numbers are thrown around so much it makes me want to throw up.

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Might make you sick, but it's true. Tebow cannot be a running back and a quarterback. He needs to be one or the other.

I know you hate to see that, Joe, but it's the truth.

BroncoJoe
12-29-2011, 10:36 PM
Might make you sick, but it's true. Tebow cannot be a running back and a quarterback. He needs to be one or the other.

I know you hate to see that, Joe, but it's the truth.

The three year comment on RB's isnt an accurate depiction of reality.

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MOtorboat
12-29-2011, 10:37 PM
The three year comment on RB's isnt an accurate depiction of reality.

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Why?

BroncoJoe
12-29-2011, 10:40 PM
Why?

I think you know why. A backup one year is gone the next. How many RB's that were worth anything only lasted three years?

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MOtorboat
12-29-2011, 10:42 PM
I think you know why. A backup one year is gone the next. How many RB's that were worth anything only lasted three years?

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No, I guess I'm confused. Are you saying Tebow can take the hits that a running back does and last longer than the average player who does so?

Those numbers came from the NFLPA, btw...

Nomad
12-29-2011, 10:48 PM
You think a Norv Turner/John Fox offense could/would work

BroncoJoe
12-29-2011, 10:49 PM
No, I guess I'm confused. Are you saying Tebow can take the hits that a running back does and last longer than the average player who does so?

Those numbers came from the NFLPA, btw...

So do these:


Interestingly enough, the NFLPA lists the average player career, regardless of position at 3.5 seasons.

BroncoJoe
12-29-2011, 10:59 PM
The average length of an NFL career is about 3 and a half seasons. Although there are some exceptional players who have long careers that extend 10 or twelve seasons and beyond, most players only stay active for about three seasons. Players leave the game because of injury, self-induced retirement, or being cut by the team. This also means that while players may make more money than most people, they are only making it for an average of three and a half years. To make sure they are successful in the future, players must invest their money well and make plans for another career when they can no longer play football.

https://www.nflplayers.com/About-us/FAQs/NFL-Hopeful-FAQs/

Perhaps now you can see how ludicrous the three year RB comment is.

Medford Bronco
12-29-2011, 11:03 PM
You think the NFL is really boring but you know all about Fox from watching him in Carolina? :rolleyes:

Didnt Fox get to the Super Bowl with one of the wors Qbs I have ever seen in Jake Dellome and then got to another NFC Championship game.

Look he is not Vince Lombardi but he is better than a lot of the bum coaches in the NFL now.


At least he does not ruin offenses like Josh the fruad McDaniels who has now ruined the Rams after ruining the Broncos for 2 years at least

BroncoJoe
12-29-2011, 11:04 PM
Didnt Fox get to the Super Bowl with one of the wors Qbs I have ever seen in Jake Dellome and then got to another NFC Championship game.

Look he is not Vince Lombardi but he is better than a lot of the bum coaches in the NFL now.


At least he does not ruin offenses like Josh the fruad McDaniels who has now ruined the Rams after ruining the Broncos for 2 years at least

Fox now ranks 3rd in wins for active NFL head coaches.

He's no slouch.

Ziggy
12-29-2011, 11:25 PM
Fox now ranks 3rd in wins for active NFL head coaches.

He's no slouch.

Most of those wins were with sub par talent on the rosters.....like this season.

MOtorboat
12-30-2011, 08:34 AM
https://www.nflplayers.com/About-us/FAQs/NFL-Hopeful-FAQs/

Perhaps now you can see how ludicrous the three year RB comment is.

Come on Joe, you know quarterbacks, even backup quarterbacks last a lot longer than the average player because they don't get hit as much...

The reason people use the running back comparison with Tebow is because that's the other position he most resembles. I guess we could compare him to left guards, but that wouldn't make a whole lot of sense, would it?

The bottomline is he won't be a successful quarterback for years to come if he takes that many hits and doesn't become a passer first.

chazoe60
12-30-2011, 08:45 AM
Didnt Fox get to the Super Bowl with one of the wors Qbs I have ever seen in Jake Dellome and then got to another NFC Championship game.

Look he is not Vince Lombardi but he is better than a lot of the bum coaches in the NFL now.


At least he does not ruin offenses like Josh the fruad McDaniels who has now ruined the Rams after ruining the Broncos for 2 years at least

Actually Dellhome was a pretty good QB that year. In fact he was a pretty good QB for most of his Panther career, but at the end when the wheels fell off they really fell off.

BroncoJoe
12-30-2011, 08:59 AM
Come on Joe, you know quarterbacks, even backup quarterbacks last a lot longer than the average player because they don't get hit as much...

The reason people use the running back comparison with Tebow is because that's the other position he most resembles. I guess we could compare him to left guards, but that wouldn't make a whole lot of sense, would it?

The bottomline is he won't be a successful quarterback for years to come if he takes that many hits and doesn't become a passer first.

I thoroughly dislike the "three year RB life in the NFL" comment because it is severely skewed. One of the toughest runners I remember lasted eight years - Earl Campbell. Hell, Walter Payton dished out and received his fair share of hits and he lasted 12. Just two I can think of off the top of my head. I'm sure there are 100 more, but very few that support your three year statement.

The same NFLPA states the average career for an NFL player is 3.5 years, so maybe Tebow simply shouldn't play at all because he might get hurt.

Or, if you choose to look at reality, you'll understand that the vast majority of the three year statement are people leaving the game because they simply weren't good enough to last and has ZERO to do with injury.

Jsteve01
12-30-2011, 09:31 AM
The old average length of career argument is a total red herring. The real stat should be average length of career for a "starting running back". So a Lance Ball gets into the league on marginal talent and washes out in a few years? Lack of talent has as much to do with the stat as injuries or wearing down.

Jsteve01
12-30-2011, 09:33 AM
Actually Dellhome was a pretty good QB that year. In fact he was a pretty good QB for most of his Panther career, but at the end when the wheels fell off they really fell off.

People seem to forget he threw for almost 4k yards and had 29 TDs during the Super Bowl year and people keep talking about how Fox won't let his qb air it out.

Dreadnought
12-30-2011, 10:06 AM
People seem to forget he threw for almost 4k yards and had 29 TDs during the Super Bowl year and people keep talking about how Fox won't let his qb air it out.

Exactly. DelHomme was a very good QB in his day, just not a great one. He was an especially excellent long baller. If he didn't have pinpoint accuracy he certainly was no chump QB

TXBRONC
12-30-2011, 10:27 AM
I happen to like Fox and think he's good head coach. I think where agree with how he's going about it or not he's trying keep Tebow out of bad situations. From what I've heard him and what I seen in from his record he prefers have the run to pass ratio to be closer to a one to one ratio with lean towards running the ball over passing it. Just as a side note in 2004 they threw the ball 114 times more than they ran it.

catfish
12-30-2011, 10:33 AM
I happen to like Fox and think he's good head coach. I think where agree with how he's going about it or not he's trying keep Tebow out of bad situations. From what I've heard him and what I seen in from his record he prefers have the run to pass ratio to be closer to a one to one ratio with lean towards running the ball over passing it. Just as a side note in 2004 they threw the ball 114 times more than they ran it.

IMO only time will tell, but so far he deserves a lot of credit for working with what he has and getting a lot more out of a young team than I thought he could

catfish
12-30-2011, 10:35 AM
our problem isn't Fox, the problem is that MO used up all his mojo on the 6 game run, hopefully he is re-stocked after a two game rest

MOtorboat
12-30-2011, 10:56 AM
our problem isn't Fox, the problem is that MO used up all his mojo on the 6 game run, hopefully he is re-stocked after a two game rest

I tried to reverse it with the Orton thread, but his White Knights turned that into a cluster. I'm afraid this team is on their own. My favour with the football gods has run out.

topscribe
12-30-2011, 11:00 AM
I tried to reverse it with the Orton thread, but his White Knights turned that into a cluster. I'm afraid this team is on their own. My favour with the football gods has run out.

You mean somebody actually posted in that thread?

catfish
12-30-2011, 11:01 AM
I tried to reverse it with the Orton thread, but his White Knights turned that into a cluster. I'm afraid this team is on their own. My favour with the football gods has run out.

you are going to quit on the team that easy?...when the going gets tough, the tough find more ways to make fun of Orton

Medford Bronco
12-30-2011, 09:43 PM
you are going to quit on the team that easy?...when the going gets tough, the tough find more ways to make fun of Orton

Lets hope Orton drops the ball when Dumervil and Von Miller come after him like he did in week 1.

People are pumping his tires and he scored a whole 32 pts in 2 games. He still is mediocre at best...

Medford Bronco
12-30-2011, 09:45 PM
I thoroughly dislike the "three year RB life in the NFL" comment because it is severely skewed. One of the toughest runners I remember lasted eight years - Earl Campbell. Hell, Walter Payton dished out and received his fair share of hits and he lasted 12. Just two I can think of off the top of my head. I'm sure there are 100 more, but very few that support your three year statement.

The same NFLPA states the average career for an NFL player is 3.5 years, so maybe Tebow simply shouldn't play at all because he might get hurt.

Or, if you choose to look at reality, you'll understand that the vast majority of the three year statement are people leaving the game because they simply weren't good enough to last and has ZERO to do with injury.

How about Curtis Martin, Emmit Smith and Barry Sanders. They all lasted much longer than that and Sanders retired young and would have easliy passed 20,000 rushing yards if he played 3 more years IMHO.

MOtorboat
12-30-2011, 09:48 PM
You mean somebody actually posted in that thread?

Which one? The thread made as a joke that you turned into your "I'm a victim" schtick, which is, what, the 535th straight thread you've done that to...

topscribe
12-30-2011, 10:05 PM
Which one? The thread made as a joke that you turned into your "I'm a victim" schtick, which is, what, the 535th straight thread you've done that to...

You have too much time on your hands, Mo. Ever tried working?

Denver Native (Carol)
12-30-2011, 10:11 PM
OOPS - I'm in the wrong thread - thought the topic of this thread was Fox

Medford Bronco
12-30-2011, 10:13 PM
OOPS - I'm in the wrong thread - thought the topic of this thread was Fox

haha that was funny. :salute:

I want to win this game and validate Fox's season as a good coach.

He has done very well with not great talent, esp on offense. I have enjoyed this year so much due to the surprising nature of it. Lets at least win and get in the playoffs and have fun. I could care less about Kyle Orton. He is GONE from the Broncos. I root for the Blue and Orange. Go Broncos. I love the NFL but love the Broncos more...

BCJ
12-30-2011, 10:21 PM
We wanted a defensive coach after seeing two coaches not give a rat's ass about it so we got Fox. Maybe he will let the O.C. take charge and he works some magic on the defensive side.

catfish
12-30-2011, 10:30 PM
We wanted a defensive coach after seeing two coaches not give a rat's ass about it so we got Fox. Maybe he will let the O.C. take charge and he works some magic on the defensive side.

I hope Fox's D can get us some take aways this game...we need to win the turnover battle.

MOtorboat
12-30-2011, 10:35 PM
You have too much time on your hands, Mo. Ever tried working?

All the time.

Ever tried not being a victim?

Medford Bronco
12-30-2011, 10:35 PM
I hope Fox's D can get us some take aways this game...we need to win the turnover battle.

Von Miller and Dumervil to me are the keys to this game. When Denver was at its best. They got pressure on the QB. I hope that they force Kyle into some happy feet and bad throws. Mile High also should be rocking and loud.

catfish
12-30-2011, 10:36 PM
All the time.

Ever tried not being a victim?

for the record working is overrated...get others to do the work and reap the rewards whenever possible

Medford Bronco
12-30-2011, 10:38 PM
for the record working is overrated...get others to do the work and reap the rewards whenever possible

The American dream for some :lol:

topscribe
12-30-2011, 11:29 PM
for the record working is overrated...get others to do the work and reap the rewards whenever possible

I'll work on that . . .

GiantTebow
12-30-2011, 11:43 PM
Hi,

Cam Newton's going to crash and burn with his fake smile.

The guy got kicked out from the Gators for cheating and the cheated his way onto Auburn. He's a disaster waiting to happen.

I've seen this kind of show too many times to know how it ends.

I wont be surprised to see that happen. Kids like him and Dez Bryant have talent but their Ego's will drive them out of the game or make them a Mike Vick, never fully reaching their potential.

jhildebrand
12-31-2011, 12:51 PM
I will always take a 'problem' who takes a bad 4-12 team with a lot of deficiencies to a shot at the playoffs his first year!

Cugel
12-31-2011, 01:40 PM
Originally Posted by BroncoJoe View Post
I thoroughly dislike the "three year RB life in the NFL" comment because it is severely skewed. One of the toughest runners I remember lasted eight years - Earl Campbell. Hell, Walter Payton dished out and received his fair share of hits and he lasted 12. Just two I can think of off the top of my head. I'm sure there are 100 more, but very few that support your three year statement.

The same NFLPA states the average career for an NFL player is 3.5 years, so maybe Tebow simply shouldn't play at all because he might get hurt.

Or, if you choose to look at reality, you'll understand that the vast majority of the three year statement are people leaving the game because they simply weren't good enough to last and has ZERO to do with injury.

RBs aren't paid $10-$15 million a year. Starting QBs are. :ranger:

THAT's the difference. Even if your statement that RBs are leaving the league after 4 or 5 years because they suck were correct. The sucky ones don't last even that long.

If you're going to list the exceptions to the rule that NFL RBs don't last why not go on and on about Marcus Allen? He played for about 16 years and never was hurt. But nobody could ever figure out how he did it. And nobody can emulate his success.

Terrell Davis had all the talent in the world and he lasted for 6. One second Bo Jackson was running down the sidelines for a 60 yard TD on Monday Night Football and the next he had an artificial hip. Done. Playing RB is a risky business and it can end quickly.

Running QBs will NEVER be allowed in the NFL because the owners don't want to risk their investment. Paying a guy $9 million and then training him for 3 years to be your franchise QB and then he lasts another 3 years because he's getting racked up, just doesn't make any financial sense -- even if you could win some playoff games that way. You'd have to go out and waste another 1st round draft pick on a QB and then train him for ANOTHER 3 years before you'd be ready to compete for a championship.

Better to pick a traditional pocket passing QB and keep him around for 10-15 years and build a team around him. That's why the Broncos John Elway keeps insisting that it takes a pocket passing QB to win a championship and why Tebow's progress will be measured not in wins, but in how well he develops into a decent pocket passing QB who runs occasionally.

The NFL system is set up to protect the QB in the pocket. And that's how it's going to stay despite all the bleating of the non-knowledgeable Teboniacs. You shout into the wind for all the good it's going to do. The system is the system and it's not going to change for Tebow. :coffee:

BroncoJoe
12-31-2011, 02:44 PM
Yeah. I'm sure physical/running/mobile QB's like Steve Young wouldn't last very long in the NFL.

Oh wait ...

For every injured RB you find, there are players at each position that can be sited as having a career ending injury.

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MOtorboat
12-31-2011, 03:20 PM
Yeah. I'm sure physical/running/mobile QB's like Steve Young wouldn't last very long in the NFL.

Oh wait ...

For every injured RB you find, there are players at each position that can be sited as having a career ending injury.

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4.3 rushes per game.

BroncoJoe
12-31-2011, 03:26 PM
4.3 rushes per game.

Young:
First year: 8.0
Second year: 5.3
Average: 6.65 (through 19 games)

Tebow is averaging 5.5 last year and this.

Softskull
12-31-2011, 03:27 PM
4.3 rushes per game.

Over 9 concussions and only played 3 complete seasons in 15 years.

BroncoJoe
12-31-2011, 03:30 PM
Over 9 concussions and only played 3 complete seasons in 15 years.

Just a tad longer than three.

MOtorboat
12-31-2011, 03:35 PM
Just a tad longer than three.

He only played a full 16 games in 3 of those 15 seasons.

BroncoJoe
12-31-2011, 03:41 PM
He only played a full 16 games in 3 of those 15 seasons.

Your point? Are you saying he shouldn't be in the HOF? He wasn't a good QB? He didn't win a Superbowl? He didn't participate in the NFL for 15 seasons?

MOtorboat
12-31-2011, 03:46 PM
Your point? Are you saying he shouldn't be in the HOF? He wasn't a good QB? He didn't win a Superbowl? He didn't participate in the NFL for 15 seasons?

Jeesh.

He took too many hits, and missed a lot of games because of it.

BroncoJoe
12-31-2011, 03:50 PM
Jeesh.

He took too many hits, and missed a lot of games because of it.

Right. Because for many of those years it had nothing to do with being a back up to Joe Montana. Clearly he missed games because of injury, but that's not the sole reason.

Jeesh. He only lasted 15 years in the NFL. What a loser.

BroncoJoe
12-31-2011, 03:53 PM
Troy Aikman was a classic pocket QB. He only played three full 16 games in his 12 year career.

MOtorboat
12-31-2011, 03:58 PM
No worries Joe, Tebow is indestructable, so it shouldn't really matter.

BroncoJoe
12-31-2011, 04:09 PM
No worries Joe, Tebow is indestructable, so it shouldn't really matter.

Not my implication what-so-ever. My original point was the farce that is the "three year life" of an NFL RB.

Nice job backing out the door though.
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catfish
12-31-2011, 04:12 PM
Not my implication what-so-ever. My original point was the farce that is the "three year life" of an NFL RB.

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I'm not going to get in the middle of this, but the NFL put out a report earlier this year taking the average careers of players who make the 53 man roster their first year, and the career length was on average more than double what the players union put out. The players union the majority of the players careers ended due to being cut, the NFL was mostly due to injury or retirement.....kickers last the longest in both :)

MOtorboat
12-31-2011, 04:12 PM
I just hope he's talented enough to where it matters how many hits he takes over 15 years.

Because the quarterbacks that have been thrown out in comparison above were extremely better passers, even from day one.

BroncoJoe
12-31-2011, 04:16 PM
I just hope he's talented enough to where it matters how many hits he takes over 15 years.

Because the quarterbacks that have been thrown out in comparison above were extremely better passers, even from day one.

Agreed. I hope this is a long, long discussion. And if it's not, that it's because Tebow simply doesnt improve his overall game as a QB unlike those mentioned previously.

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jhildebrand
12-31-2011, 07:20 PM
For a guy who couldn't take a snap from under center at the Miami game...we have come a long way.

I want this kid to win tomorrow. I want a young team to get PO experience in a year where they shouldn't have sniffed the PO's. Let's see what an offseason with intense work will do.

HORSEPOWER 56
01-01-2012, 10:02 AM
After reading through this thread and to answer the OP, I don't think Fox is our problem at all. I don't think Tebow, the O-line, our too young or too old secondary, our patchwork D-line, or even Mike McCoy is our problem.

I think our biggest problem is fans (both Broncos' and other teams') continuously trying to tell us what our problems are and constantly acting as if they know more than they do. The sky-high expectations when there originally were none has gotten ridiculous. I love how after two bad games folks are already ready to jump off the wagon and start pointing fingers and the vulture fans of other teams are circling hoping we'll fail.

We're a young team that has some talent gaps that, for the past 10 weeks, has played above their head and become a team to be reckoned with. I couldn't be happier with this turnaround and, win or lose today this season was a success. We are on the right track. Give this team a full off season, free agency, a draft, and a little more experience before we decide the future. We're just starting this chapter of Broncos' history. Let's see where it goes before we make decisions on whose fault it is we didn't win the Superbowl this year... if that happens which is yet to be decided.

Fox and Elway have brought controversy, but also hope to franchise that had none. They've succeeded in doing what they set out to do initially, get back to Broncos football and change the culture in Denver. The fact we're playing for the division title today tells me they've more than improved, they've made us a relevant again.