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View Full Version : 3-4 Defense in '09



MHCBill
02-11-2009, 09:26 AM
DE - Marcus Thomas
NT - Albert Haynesworth
DE - Kenny Peterson

OLB - Jarvis Moss
ILB - Rey Maualuga
ILB - D.J. Williams
OLB - Boss Bailey

CB - Champ Bailey
CB - Karl Paymah
SS - Wesley Woodyard
FS - Josh Barrett

Folks, we need to be realistic. If Haynesworth does not resign he should be our #1 FA target. Julius Peppers wants too much money to be a "run-stopping" 3-4 DE. He wants "sacks" money and when you play a 3-4 the DE's first responsibility is to stop the run, not get after the passer. This notion that he would be an OLB in the 3-4 is a pipe dream if you ask me. He's always been a DE and to think that now he'll transform into some kind of Demarcus Ware clone is proposterous. I ain't buying Peppers to Denver.

Haynesworth on the other hand could be that dominant force in the middle of a 3-4 defense that is necessary. He'll demand double teams, which helps free up a DE and the ILB'ers. Again, if he is available, he's the one to go get.

As for the DE's... Thomas and Peterson are both more than capable to be very good run-stopping ends in a 3-4. I think both could also end up with 3 or 4 sacks. They have size, strength, and athleticsm that is needed for that position.

At OLB I think folks are foolish if they think Elvis can be an adequate OLB. Again, this is trying to make a round peg fit into a square hole. He's been a DE through college and 3 years in the pros. Not every player can just magically change into some other type of player. Our best move would be to try and trade Elvis for a mid-round draft pick. He's done in Denver if we go to a 3-4. I am not a Boss Bailey fan, but again, trying to be realistic. You have to keep some of these scrubs and he fits due to his size and athleticsm. He is the one player that I could easily be persuaded to change in this line-up, but with whom? As for Jarvis Moss... I know, I know... how can he handle changing to a 3-4 OLB, but Elvis can't? Namely, his size and athleticsm. I'm not sold that he'll succeed, but I think he has a better chance than Elvis and with Elvis you could at least trade him. I don't think anyone would trade for Moss. Use Moss for a year at OLB and see what happens. Hopefully we'll draft a player in the late rounds with the thought in mind that maybe this is Moss' replacement.

ILB is easy. Draft Maualuga and put him next to D.J. and you have two EXCELLENT interior linebackers. Both can make plays and both will exel and have chances to make Pro Bowls. One position I'm not worried about and having Larsen as a back-up I see this as a team strength.

Karl Paymah... what? Nolan likes aggressive, in your face DB's. See ya Dre Bly. Again, staying realistic that leaves Josh Bell, Jack Williams, and Karl Paymah. Paymah's strength coming out of college was a bump-n-run type corner that played close to the line of scrimmage. Like Jarvis Moss, this will be an experiment. Paymah will step up and play himself into a big contract or will likely become a nickel or dime back for the next few years until he's managing a cell phone store at the mall.

Lastly, Woodyard and Barrett have the physical skills to play safety, but it takes more than physical skills. We can't fix every defensive problem in one year, so we'll need to see if these two young guys are the future or just a stop-gap until we find someone better.

All and all, I think this has the makings of a decent defense. I'm not thrilled with Boss Bailey and Jarvis Moss as my OLB'ers, but what are the alternatives? A rookie? A free agent? Elvis? The rest I could live with for a year to see how things go, because I'm not expecting to compete deep into the playoffs in 2009, but in 2010 I will be.

Bad Intentions
02-11-2009, 09:39 AM
Lots of good thought put into that post! KUDOS.

I will say that I think bringing in Haynesworth to play NT for BIG $$$ is probably not the best idea.

I would prefer to give Julius Peppers big money and let him play ROLB or even 3-4 End. Bruce Smith racked up hundreds of sacks playing end in the 3-4 so its not impossible. Julius Peppers is a phenomenal athlete and could easily make the transition to 3-4 ROLB. He would immediately be a 15-20 sack presence for our defense which makes our safeties better as well as allowing Champ and Dre to get back on track.

Raji in the first round to play NT or Ron Brace in the second round.

Then you go with DJ Williams and Spencer Larsen in the middle with Peppers and maybe Moss on the outside. Lots of options!!!

MHCBill
02-11-2009, 09:47 AM
For some reason, I'm just not sold on Peppers as a 3-4 OLB.

Northman
02-11-2009, 09:48 AM
Sacks is what this team needs. We need playmakers at the DE position.

LRtagger
02-11-2009, 10:07 AM
At OLB I think folks are foolish if they think Elvis can be an adequate OLB. Again, this is trying to make a round peg fit into a square hole. He's been a DE through college and 3 years in the pros. Not every player can just magically change into some other type of player.


It's OK I guess... I dont like the idea of making Haynesworth the highest paid defesive player in the NFL and then taking him from a 3 technique and putting him in a 0 or 1 technique...considering what you are saying about Doom it doesnt make sense to expect Haynesworth to make the same type of change and cover 2-gaps. And considering the type of contract he is going to expect it is too risky IMO.

I would be more willing to take the chance on Peppers because I think he could play OLB or DE if asked. Since we will be running a 3-4 and 4-3 throughout the year, I think he is the lesser risk (and will probably cost alittle less money).

I think we go after a vet in FA (someone like Grady Jackson who can play for a year or two at NT for not a lot of money) and make NT a top priority in the draft. There are three guys in the draft we can target. One will go in the first, one in the second, and one in the third...so our options are there as to how we want to approach the draft. Any of those three guys could develop into a great NT...and I think are very much less of a risk than Haynesworth considering the contract he will require.

I think Doom can play OLB. I think he deserves the opportunity at least, although I wouldnt be opposed to trading him for a 3rd (I dont think we get a third for him...maybe a 4th). He is short so he can get underneath guys even coming from the edge standing. He has good quickness and leverage, I just worry about his coverage skills....but I think he could still be a 10+sack guy at OLB. It may even benefit him to have a little more space to work the OT.

drewloc
02-11-2009, 10:09 AM
You could say the same thing about Moss. He has never played OLB, he was always a DE. I don't think either one is perfect, but don't count Doom out either. I think the same thing could be said about both players.

Northman
02-11-2009, 10:11 AM
It's OK I guess... I dont like the idea of making Haynesworth the highest paid defesive player in the NFL and then taking him from a 3 technique and putting him in a 0 or 1 technique...considering what you are saying about Doom it doesnt make sense to expect Haynesworth to make the same type of change and cover 2-gaps. And considering the type of contract he is going to expect it is too risky IMO.

I would be more willing to take the chance on Peppers because I think he could play OLB or DE if asked. Since we will be running a 3-4 and 4-3 throughout the year, I think he is the lesser risk (and will probably cost alittle less money).

I think we go after a vet in FA (someone like Grady Jackson who can play for a year or two at NT for not a lot of money) and make NT a top priority in the draft. There are three guys in the draft we can target. One will go in the first, one in the second, and one in the third...so our options are there as to how we want to approach the draft. Any of those three guys could develop into a great NT...and I think are very much less of a risk than Haynesworth considering the contract he will require.

I think Doom can play OLB. I think he deserves the opportunity at least, although I wouldnt be opposed to trading him for a 3rd (I dont think we get a third for him...maybe a 4th). He is short so he can get underneath guys even coming from the edge standing. He has good quickness and leverage, I just worry about his coverage skills....but I think he could still be a 10+sack guy at OLB. It may even benefit him to have a little more space to work the OT.


Yea, i actually think Doom has the speed to be a very good LB in my opinion.

BRONCOSFREAK765
02-11-2009, 12:29 PM
I agree, paying haynesworth big money to play NT is probably not a smart move. Peppers would be great though..I think that would be great..seeing doom and peppers lining up at end in nickle and dime defenses.

Ziggy
02-11-2009, 12:40 PM
What in the world makes people think that Haynseworth would come to a 3-4 defense with no other talent on the defensive line to play NT? He's going to get a big contract offer with a ton of guarunteed money from multiple teams. Why would he choose to go to a team with a bad defense and play NT, getting double teamed on every single play? It's not going to happen. Now if Denver were the only team willing to give him top dollar there might be an argument there, but multiple teams are going to be making offers. Anything is possible, but Haynesworth coming to Denver is highly unlikely.

BRONCOSFREAK765
02-11-2009, 12:44 PM
honestly would rather see suggs or bart scott come here via free agency. would be great to take a NT in the 1st and 2nd round...keep in mind you have to have depth at NT...also read today banta-cain was released would add depth and he is a former patriot.

turftoad
02-11-2009, 12:51 PM
What in the world makes people think that Haynseworth would come to a 3-4 defense with no other talent on the defensive line to play NT? He's going to get a big contract offer with a ton of guarunteed money from multiple teams. Why would he choose to go to a team with a bad defense and play NT, getting double teamed on every single play? It's not going to happen. Now if Denver were the only team willing to give him top dollar there might be an argument there, but multiple teams are going to be making offers. Anything is possible, but Haynesworth coming to Denver is highly unlikely.

Yep. Haynesworth wants to be the highest paid defensive player in the league.
He probably will get it. I just don't want us to be the ones to give him the $$.
We have to many other needs than to just bring in one high priced FA.

MHCBill
02-11-2009, 12:59 PM
It is risky bringing in Haynesworth, but I don't think Peppers is a 3-4 OLB.

Cugel
02-11-2009, 01:02 PM
What in the world makes people think that Haynseworth would come to a 3-4 defense with no other talent on the defensive line to play NT? He's going to get a big contract offer with a ton of guarunteed money from multiple teams. Why would he choose to go to a team with a bad defense and play NT, getting double teamed on every single play? It's not going to happen. Now if Denver were the only team willing to give him top dollar there might be an argument there, but multiple teams are going to be making offers. Anything is possible, but Haynesworth coming to Denver is highly unlikely.

And this doesn't even take into consideration that the Titans can and probably will pay what it takes to keep him. They can easily afford it. That team always has a LOT of cap room. :coffee:

Northman
02-11-2009, 01:09 PM
And this doesn't even take into consideration that the Titans can and probably will pay what it takes to keep him. They can easily afford it. That team always has a LOT of cap room. :coffee:

Not too mention they are a contender right now. I think he stays a Titan also.

Cugel
02-11-2009, 01:12 PM
As for Elvis Dumervil's chances of moving to a 3-4, at least Terrell Suggs thinks he can do it:


Elvis may move to LB
By Mike Klis
The Denver Post
Posted: 02/06/2009 12:30:00 AM MST
Updated: 02/06/2009 12:36:57 AM MST

Denver Broncos
HONOLULU — The Broncos have raised the possibility of converting defensive end Elvis Dumervil to an outside linebacker should the team convert to the 3-4 defense.

The decision to fully commit to the 3-4, however, has not been made.

"I'll do whatever necessary to help the team," Dumervil said Thursday in a telephone interview. "They're going to see what they can do in free agency and the draft first. We haven't really honed in on the personnel, yet."

Many 3-4 outside linebackers, such as Pittsburgh's James Harrison and Baltimore's Terrell Suggs, drop into a three-point stance as a defensive end on passing downs. On first or second downs, they either pass rush or drop into coverage.

New Broncos coach Josh McDaniels, defensive coordinator Mike Nolan and defensive line coach Wayne Nunnely are well-versed in the 3-4.

But for the past 14 seasons under coach Mike Shanahan, the Broncos have been a 4-3 defense and built their roster accordingly. There figures to be only so much room in the Broncos' budget once the free-agent market opens Feb. 27, and only nine draft picks (the team will have an extra selection in the fifth and seventh rounds) available on April 25-26, so it may not be possible to fully convert from the 4-3 to 3-4 in one season.

"If I were to do it, I would have to work on my backpedaling," Dumervil said.

"I think it would be a good look for him," Suggs said.

That would be the key. Can Dumervil backpedal and get into coverage the way an OLB must in a 3-4 when they're not rushing the passer. He's been a straight-ahead pass-rusher all this time.

But, he's managed to do some pass-coverage and wasn't totally bad in covering some guys over the short middle. It just wasn't nearly as much as he'd have to do in a 3-4.

I imagine the coaches will want to see him in drills and work on his foot-work before making a decision.

But, this article is right. Denver has a LOT of holes to fill whether they go to a 3-4 or not. So, moving Dumervil at least for 1 season might be NECESSARY whether it works well or not.

It's not as if the Broncos can replace EVERYBODY on their defense, no matter how much they might deserve it! :coffee:

They've got to try some experiments:

1. Can Crowder become a useful player as DE in a 3-4? Probably not, but we have to see.

2. Can Jarvis Moss be a useful 3-4 OLB? Maybe.

3. Can DeWayne Robertson move out to play DE in a 3-4 or is he limited to being a 4-3 DT? He doesn't want to play in a 3-4 so he might just be cut.

4. WHO's The NT? The NT is simply NOT on this team unless they think for some reason that Marcus Thomas can do that job.

But, he wasn't that strong at DT last year. He got shoved around by 1 OT quite a lot on running plays. It's hard to see him dominating two blockers they way a NT has to do. That's a tough position and he's never played it. He might be better moving out to play DE in the 3-4. He's big enough and strong enough for that.

But that still means the Broncos have to find a FA NT somewhere and probably draft one too. (They need at least 2 starting NTs on the roster).

Ziggy
02-11-2009, 01:16 PM
I think that Powell may be our best option at NT of the guys on the roster right now. He's a bit undersized, but he was a run stuffing beast in college. I haven't heard how his recovery is going though.

Fan in Exile
02-11-2009, 01:41 PM
I think that Powell may be our best option at NT of the guys on the roster right now. He's a bit undersized, but he was a run stuffing beast in college. I haven't heard how his recovery is going though.

I heard that they were looking at him as a DE. I don't know how true that is but I think it fits a little better because he's a little small for a NT, at only 300.

Requiem / The Dagda
02-11-2009, 01:56 PM
That defense still looks like crap.

MHCBill
02-11-2009, 02:04 PM
That defense still looks like crap.You're very helpful.

Requiem / The Dagda
02-11-2009, 02:05 PM
You're very helpful.

I know what I'm doing.

topscribe
02-11-2009, 02:16 PM
I think that Powell may be our best option at NT of the guys on the roster right now. He's a bit undersized, but he was a run stuffing beast in college. I haven't heard how his recovery is going though.


I heard that they were looking at him as a DE. I don't know how true that is but I think it fits a little better because he's a little small for a NT, at only 300.

Powell is probably best suited for DE in a 3-4. He has exceptionally quick feet
and can run a 4.9. In fact, he was a pretty successful LB until being converted
to DT. Of course, he was selected for his ability against the run, which was
superior in college. He might make a good LDE for that reason.

-----

turftoad
02-11-2009, 02:45 PM
I know what I'm doing.

Since when? :shocked:

turftoad
02-11-2009, 02:47 PM
Powell is probably best suited for DE in a 3-4. He has exceptionally quick feet
and can run a 4.9. In fact, he was a pretty successful LB until being converted
to DT. Of course, he was selected for his ability against the run, which was
superior in college. He might make a good LDE for that reason.

-----

Problem is, we don't know much about Powell. He hasn't played an NFL down yet.
Hell, he not even make the team. I hope he does, I hope he can contribute on the line somewhere. Lord knows we need it.

jrelway
02-11-2009, 02:49 PM
wow. here comes the haynesworth talks now. real smart to spend all of our money on one guy when our whole defense needs an overhaul. im all for a good decently priced FA, but the rest, build through the draft damnit.

jrelway
02-11-2009, 02:49 PM
I know what I'm doing.

i didnt know harry potter was a seminoles fan :lol:

topscribe
02-11-2009, 02:51 PM
Problem is, we don't know much about Powell. He hasn't played an NFL down yet.
Hell, he not even make the team. I hope he does, I hope he can contribute on the line somewhere. Lord knows we need it.

That's true, and I never meant to state that he would make the team. As you
said, that remains to be seen. I was simply commenting on where he would
best fit along the DL if the team goes to a 3-4.

-----

TXBRONC
02-11-2009, 03:18 PM
MHC I applaud you on how you have thought this thing out, there are couple of places I disagree with you.

First and foremost, is Haynesworth at nose tackle, as someone mentioned he wants to be THE highest paid defensive tackle in the League. Second just because he has the measurables to be NT but I don't think for a minute he's going want the responsibility of playing two gaps.

I understand you're not sold on Peppers as OLB because he's never did it before. The same could be said for Jason Taylor who was switched to OLB and he did it at much later point in his career. Also Peppers is at least saying publicly that he would like to be OLB in 3-4 defense. Haynesworth hasn't either way that he would like to play NT but my hunch is that it would not be appealing to him.

dogfish
02-11-2009, 03:40 PM
I understand you're not sold on Peppers as OLB because he's never did it before. The same could be said for Jason Taylor who was switched OLB and he did it a much later in his career.


beat me to it, TX. . . . :salute:


bill, don't discount the ability of an all-world athlete to make that type of position switch-- not only did taylor do it recently and with outstanding results, but greg ellis did as well. . . and both of them were deeper into their careers than peppers, especially taylor. . .

IMO, peppers has all the necessary skills, including extremely fluid change of direction for a man his size, and he has plenty of experience with zone drops. . . it would take a lot of work in the film room learning to diagnose plays from a different perspective, but that he can certainly do as long as he's willing to work hard. . . man coverage might be the hardest thing, but if you pay to get julius peppers how much do you really want him dropping in coverage anyways? i want him going after the quarterback, and if he's one of the elites doing it from a three-point stance i'm pretty confident he can do it from a two-point stance. . .



of course, i'd be just as happy to sign chris canty, and maybe go after someone like karlos dansby or oj atogwe if there's enough money left. . . . i think we all realize how crucial it is to have a quality nosetackle, but i'm not sure that making a guy the highest-paid defender in the league and then turning him into a human roadblock is really such a great investment. . . i'd be more hyped on haynesworth if we were sticking with a 4-3 and he could come in and be disruptive against both the pass and the run the way he is in tennessee-- where i believe he's going to end up staying. . . .

TXBRONC
02-11-2009, 03:50 PM
beat me to it, TX. . . . :salute:


bill, don't discount the ability of an all-world athlete to make that type of position switch-- not only did taylor do it recently and with outstanding results, but greg ellis did as well. . . and both of them were deeper into their careers than peppers, especially taylor. . .

IMO, peppers has all the necessary skills, including extremely fluid change of direction for a man his size, and he has plenty of experience with zone drops. . . it would take a lot of work in the film room learning to diagnose plays from a different perspective, but that he can certainly do as long as he's willing to work hard. . . man coverage might be the hardest thing, but if you pay to get julius peppers how much do you really want him dropping in coverage anyways? i want him going after the quarterback, and if he's one of the elites doing it from a three-point stance i'm pretty confident he can do it from a two-point stance. . .



of course, i'd be just as happy to sign chris canty, and maybe go after someone like karlos dansby or oj atogwe if there's enough money left. . . . i think we all realize how crucial it is to have a quality nosetackle, but i'm not sure that making a guy the highest-paid defender in the league and then turning him into a human roadblock is really such a great investment. . . i'd be more hyped on haynesworth if we were sticking with a 4-3 and he could come in and be disruptive against both the pass and the run the way he is in tennessee-- where i believe he's going to end up staying. . . .

I'm glad you brought that up about Peppers and him being used in zone drops. The Broncos know it first hand. The last time we played the Panthers in Denver Peppers dropped back into zone coverage and picked off a pass and ran it back near full length of the field for a touchdown. The only reason he didn't score is because Rod Smith finally caught him just before he got into the end zone. So I agree Peppers has already demonstrated that he has the fluidity in his hips to play in pass coverage therefore in my opinion a transition to OLB wont be difficult for him.

Cugel
02-11-2009, 04:13 PM
wow. here comes the haynesworth talks now. real smart to spend all of our money on one guy when our whole defense needs an overhaul. im all for a good decently priced FA, but the rest, build through the draft damnit.

Well, Albert Haynesworth will probably be re-signed by the Titans and then you won't have to worry about it! :coffee:

Cugel
02-11-2009, 04:14 PM
I'm glad you brought that up about Peppers and him being used in zone drops. The Broncos know it first hand. The last time we played the Panthers in Denver Peppers dropped back into zone coverage and picked off a pass and ran it back near full length of the field for a touchdown. The only reason he didn't score is because Rod Smith finally caught him just before he got into the end zone. So I agree Peppers has already demonstrated that he has the fluidity in his hips to play in pass coverage therefore in my opinion a transition to OLB wont be difficult for him.

What WILL be difficult will be for Denver to sign him! He's making over $13 million this season and wants a raise! It will take close to $30 million in GUARANTEES and about a $70-80 million contract to sign him.

I don't see him coming to Denver. :coffee:

MHCBill
02-11-2009, 04:18 PM
MHC I applaud you on how you have thought this thing out, there are couple of places I disagree with you.

First and foremost, is Haynesworth at nose tackle, as someone mentioned he wants to be THE highest paid defensive tackle in the League. Second just because he has the measurables to be NT but I don't think for a minute he's going want the responsibility of playing two gaps.

I understand you're not sold on Peppers as OLB because he's never did it before. The same could be said for Jason Taylor who was switched to OLB and he did it at much later point in his career. Also Peppers is at least saying publicly that he would like to be OLB in 3-4 defense. Haynesworth hasn't either way that he would like to play NT but my hunch is that it would not be appealing to him.I appreciate your thoughts and your opinions.

Certainly better than what some folks throw up on a message board.

MHCBill
02-11-2009, 04:23 PM
beat me to it, TX. . . . :salute:


bill, don't discount the ability of an all-world athlete to make that type of position switch-- not only did taylor do it recently and with outstanding results, but greg ellis did as well. . . and both of them were deeper into their careers than peppers, especially taylor. . .

IMO, peppers has all the necessary skills, including extremely fluid change of direction for a man his size, and he has plenty of experience with zone drops. . . it would take a lot of work in the film room learning to diagnose plays from a different perspective, but that he can certainly do as long as he's willing to work hard. . . man coverage might be the hardest thing, but if you pay to get julius peppers how much do you really want him dropping in coverage anyways? i want him going after the quarterback, and if he's one of the elites doing it from a three-point stance i'm pretty confident he can do it from a two-point stance. . .



of course, i'd be just as happy to sign chris canty, and maybe go after someone like karlos dansby or oj atogwe if there's enough money left. . . . i think we all realize how crucial it is to have a quality nosetackle, but i'm not sure that making a guy the highest-paid defender in the league and then turning him into a human roadblock is really such a great investment. . . i'd be more hyped on haynesworth if we were sticking with a 4-3 and he could come in and be disruptive against both the pass and the run the way he is in tennessee-- where i believe he's going to end up staying. . . .Now this is the type of dialouge I was hoping for.

I guess we'll see, but if we sign Peppers I hope it's for OLB versus DE. 95% of DE's in a 3-4 are there first and foremost to stop the run. I don't want to see the Broncos pay Peppers the money and be used as a run stop threat first. My only question is, can he be a productive OLB in a 3-4. I'm thinking not, but if we sign him I hope I'm wrong.

As for Haynesworth, again if he isn't resigned with Tennessee I think NT is an extremely important position in the 3-4. I don't think there is any free agents or rookies that could come close to what Haynesworth could do. The difference between Haynesworth and someone else is much larger than Peppers and another choice at OLB imo.

Nonetheless, discussing Haynesworth versus Peppers is something to pass the time with. Having others throw in their two cents on matters that don't pertain is annoying. I guess it comes with the territory.

MHCBill
02-11-2009, 04:25 PM
wow. here comes the haynesworth talks now. real smart to spend all of our money on one guy when our whole defense needs an overhaul. im all for a good decently priced FA, but the rest, build through the draft damnit.We're not allowed to discuss scenarios now?

jrelway
02-11-2009, 06:11 PM
We're not allowed to discuss scenarios now?

never said you couldnt discuss scenarios billy boy. just voicing my opinion on how stupid it would be to sign haynesworth to that much money when we have to do some serious overhauling on defense. carry on, you have my permission.

TXBRONC
02-11-2009, 06:32 PM
What WILL be difficult will be for Denver to sign him! He's making over $13 million this season and wants a raise! It will take close to $30 million in GUARANTEES and about a $70-80 million contract to sign him.

I don't see him coming to Denver. :coffee:

I don't think he's coming to Denver either.

I don't know why Peppers wants out of Carolina but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with money, nevertheless I would expect that he will get a substantial raise.

turftoad
02-11-2009, 06:33 PM
I don't think he's coming to Denver either.

I don't know why Peppers wants out of Carolina but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with money, nevertheless I would expect that he will get a substantial raise.

He wants out because he wants to play OLB on a 3-4 "D". He thinks he can dominate and be more productuve.

TXBRONC
02-11-2009, 06:39 PM
He wants out because he wants to play OLB on a 3-4 "D". He thinks he can dominate and be more productuve.

I know he said he would like play OLB in a 3-4 I have no doubt he would be very productive and maybe even more so than he has been which is a scary thought. :shocked: