Brandon Marshall- Worth The Money? Please Read Before Voting

[Ziggy]

Within a year or two, the Broncos are going to have some tough decisions to make regarding personnel. Kepping Brandon Marshall, trading him, or letting him go is going to be one of them. Marshall had 104 catches for 1265 yards and 6 TD's this season. He was tied for 13th in the NFL this season in YAC. He was selected to start in the Pro Bowl in just his 3rd season. Impressive, right? Let's look a little deeper.

Brandon was the targeted receiver 181 times this season, most in the NFL. Despite being targeted 181 times and having 104 catches, he was tied for 18th in big catches(catches over 20 yards) with only 8. He was not in the top 40 in yards per catch. He was 2nd in the NFL with balls not caught at 77. That tells us that Brandon caught 57% of the balls that he was targeted for. Just to compare, on the other side of the field, Eddie Royal caught 70.5% of the balls that he was targeted for.

Brandon had 12 dropped passes in 15 games, 3rd highest total in the NFL. Were the drops a result of mental mistakes, or were they the result of an underlying physical problem such as nerve damage in his hand? At this point, I don't think that anyone can say for sure other than possibly Brandon. Let's add in the fact that if Brandon has another off-field incident, he's looking at a possible long term suspension from the league.

Brandon is a dynamic young receiver with great size and strength, but is he worth making one of the top 5 paid receivers in the NFL? That's probably what it's going to take to keep him.

I'll leave it for you to debate BroncosForums.

edit: I have made the poll public. Your vote will be seen by others.

[turftoad]

I think the drops will become less of a concern going forward.
The off-field incidents concern me more than his on field performance.

[underrated29]

yes.

I think so.

1. we had no run game.
2. i personally didnt like the play calling of bates, so imo it made our pass game fairly easy to defend.
3. Jay targeted brandon a lot, but a lot of those targets were also ill advised throws to begin with.
4. He said, the doc said, that it would take over a year for his hand to not stay numb all the time, so he possibly has had 1 good hand.
5. our defense sucked which made us pass waaaaaay more than we should have and that increased his numbers.



All the games we had a good run game going, brandon and ed, were tearing it up. Also our defense wasnt too shabby in those games. So i personally believe that once we get a run game going, brandon will be looking like a lot better WR.

He still needs to get separation though.

[dogfish]

absolutely he's worth it. . . he's a dynamic young talent with nowhere to go but up, and i love the physical approach he takes to playing the position-- dude has a tendency to lay out linebackers in the running game, and is difficult to jam at the line due to his size and strength. . . and he could be a far more prolific scorer if we would throw more fades his way in the red zone-- force-feeding the big receiver has worked great for sheli and plex, especially their super bowl year-- why not do more of it here?

plus, he seems to be maturing somewhat-- no off-field incidents last year-- and getting married may help to settle him down further. . . i'd hate to get rid of him due to past youthful indiscretions right as he's turning the corner!

sure, he has some flaws in his game, he's not perfect-- but IMO the production is the bottom line, and he still has a ton of unrealized potential. . . we've been looking for a top notch receiver like this forever, i don't want to throw him away just because he has some drops. . .

[broncofaninfla]

Keep him, he is one of teh best in the league and can get even better assuming he keeps working hard and stays out of trouble. I would put some clauses in his contract that says it can be voided if he gets in trouble again.

[D1g1tal j1m]

He is well worth it. He is still young and has gotten better each year, so he hasn't reached his ceiling yet. With more work on the mental aspects of his game and on concentration issues and less of those stupid swing passes, he should be a more dominate WR.
I hate all those statistics that try to nitpick players. Statistics are only useful when teams use them to penny-pinch players during negotiations at contract time. Marshall is a stud receiver with size and playmaking ability that few others have. You will be hard pressed to get another like him and if he becomes a FA then you will see how valuable he is viewed by others around the league.

[CoachChaz]

I'll be the one to say NO. I think you have to create a limit on what you are willing to spend on a WR. Yes, there are the games where he has 18 catches, but aside from a bad call...we still lose that one.

Unless a WR is able to completely change and alter a game, he will never be worth what some other players are. Take a look at how many 100 yard games even the best WR averages a season. take a look at what % of his receptions result in 1st downs or TD's. Look at how many balls are dropped. You have to factor in ALOT of things to determine the value of a WR.

Yes, the kid has talent and if he were to reach a level where he was unstoppable and could control a game with his presence, then he'd be worth the money. Until then...100 receptions is simply a number. Many recievers have achieved it and very few of them were top 5 in the NFL. When your QB throws 600 passes, someone is likely to catch 100 of them.

This year he had 104 catches. 22 were on 3rd down and 6 were for TD's. What significant value did the team get out of the other 76 receptions that makes him worthy of being considered a top 5 player?

[Shazam!]

I'm sure McDaniels is aware of this and will address it in the offseason and make him work on it. I firmly believe the correctable mistakes on that plagued the team like Marshall's drops, McCoach will have three eyes on it and do all he can to change that.

It's the little things like that that McCoach will change.

[topscribe]

Marshall is one of the players the Broncos had better hang onto.

The kid is a phenomenon. Even Gonzalez remarked how B-Marsh impressed him.
And I'm not sure future lock to the HOF Gonzo is that easily impressed after
all he has seen in his career.

B-Marsh has yet to really break out. But, with his attitude toward the off-
season, he will, and when he does, everything I saw this year in Fitzgerald I
could see B-Marsh doing.

-----

[CoachChaz]

It all comes down to IF he improves. His numbers to this point are completely hollow and I just dont see paying a guy top 5 money based on what you think he is capable of. You pay him based on what he's done.

[Nature Boy]

I think the drops will become less of a concern going forward.
The off-field incidents concern me more than his on field performance.


He's about to get married and only gonna mature even more as he reaches his mid-20's. Automobile insurance rates don't start to go lower for a young male driver with good driving records til about 26 years old as that is when the experts think a man reaches his mental maturity. If you think dropped balls will become less of a problem, then so will his off field issues.

I believe most his off field issues were over a long time problematic on-off relationship with some girl. I don't know if it's the same girl he's proposed too but since there's a ring involved now, the relationships problems should subside.

I think he's worth the big contract.

We will know for sure after next year, his contract year, that is unless he chooses to sit out for a new deal now, which I don't think he'll do.

.

[Northman]

Do we keep him? No Question.

[BroncoJoe]

He's about to get married and only gonna mature even more as he reaches his mid-20's. Automobile insurance rates don't start to go lower for a young male driver with good driving records til about 26 years old as that is when the experts think a man reaches his mental maturity. If you think dropped balls will become less of a problem, then so will his off field issues.

I believe most his off field issues were over a long time problematic on-off relationship with some girl. I don't know if it's the same girl he's proposed too but since there's a ring involved now, the relationships problems should subside.

I think he's worth the big contract.

We will know for sure after next year, his contract year, that is unless he chooses to sit out for a new deal now, which I don't think he'll do.

.

It's not the same girl he had all the problems with.

[WARHORSE]

I'll be the one to say NO. I think you have to create a limit on what you are willing to spend on a WR. Yes, there are the games where he has 18 catches, but aside from a bad call...we still lose that one.

Unless a WR is able to completely change and alter a game, he will never be worth what some other players are. Take a look at how many 100 yard games even the best WR averages a season. take a look at what % of his receptions result in 1st downs or TD's. Look at how many balls are dropped. You have to factor in ALOT of things to determine the value of a WR.

Yes, the kid has talent and if he were to reach a level where he was unstoppable and could control a game with his presence, then he'd be worth the money. Until then...100 receptions is simply a number. Many recievers have achieved it and very few of them were top 5 in the NFL. When your QB throws 600 passes, someone is likely to catch 100 of them.

This year he had 104 catches. 22 were on 3rd down and 6 were for TD's. What significant value did the team get out of the other 76 receptions that makes him worthy of being considered a top 5 player?


I think there are physical factors....hip/hand.....that can be addressed. The man caught 18 passes in a single game.

The good thing for contract year is, he had some negatives that will make him more negotiable on his price.

Lets tie him up and get him long term at a decent rate, not breaking the bank for him.

We had the number 2 offense in the league.............Brandon is a large part of that.


I would sign him to a good contract......of course.

[BroncoJoe]

I think there are physical factors....hip/hand.....that can be addressed. The man caught 18 passes in a single game.

The good thing for contract year is, he had some negatives that will make him more negotiable on his price.

Lets tie him up and get him long term at a decent rate, not breaking the bank for him.

We had the number 2 offense in the league.............Brandon is a large part of that.


I would sign him to a good contract......of course.

Total yards don't mean crapola unless you're scoring points. 16th in that category.

[Nature Boy]

It's not the same girl he had all the problems with.

Regardless, if it is she is or not, one would think a man would only drop to one knee and offer a ring to the girl whom he thinks is the one.

I'm pretty sure it is not the same one as well. As the other girl was he's girl friend from HS. I'm sure this one is post college and during NFL bling bling times so I bet she is smoking hot.

I can imagine B. Marshall has the pick of the liter at any mall or night club he walks into.

.

[CoachChaz]

I think there are physical factors....hip/hand.....that can be addressed. The man caught 18 passes in a single game.

The good thing for contract year is, he had some negatives that will make him more negotiable on his price.

Lets tie him up and get him long term at a decent rate, not breaking the bank for him.

We had the number 2 offense in the league.............Brandon is a large part of that.


I would sign him to a good contract......of course.

There's no doubt he's worth more than the 4th round contract he's on right now, but top 5? Not quite yet.

[Nature Boy]

There's no doubt he's worth more than the 4th round contract he's on right now, but top 5? Not quite yet.

Who would you rather sign to a huge long term deal? Brandon Marshall or Anquan Boldin? We can sign Brandon Marshall now to lock him up, over and done with or sign Anquan Boldin this off season and access Brandon Marshall for one more year. From there we can either also sign Marshall and have 2 huge stud WRs or let him go and keep only Boldin.


Keep in mind Boldin was kind T.O.-ish arguing with his coach on national TV during the NFCCG of all things. Good thing for the coach the Cards won and Boldin is the one looking kinda stupid.

.

[MasterShake]

Definitely. Good WR are everywhere, but its the TANDEMS that kill people. I really like Royal and Marshall because they compliment each other very well. Its a pick you poison. Cover the big target who will run you over, or double up the speedy little guy who can burn you for big plays. I think next year we see a lot of Royal between the 20's, and Marshall (hopefully) catching up for grab fade routes in the end zone. He's just way too talented and young for me to see him blossom in another system. It would be right up there with the Portis trade for me, the big difference is that Brandon actually likes it here. Don't forget him and Cutler seem to have good chemistry, too.

[silkamilkamonico]

At this point I voted no because I don't want my top WR that I'm paying top 5 dollars too dropping passes every game, specifically TD's. That's not what I'm paying him for.

[turftoad]

He's about to get married and only gonna mature even more as he reaches his mid-20's. Automobile insurance rates don't start to go lower for a young male driver with good driving records til about 26 years old as that is when the experts think a man reaches his mental maturity. If you think dropped balls will become less of a problem, then so will his off field issues.

I believe most his off field issues were over a long time problematic on-off relationship with some girl. I don't know if it's the same girl he's proposed too but since there's a ring involved now, the relationships problems should subside.

I think he's worth the big contract.

We will know for sure after next year, his contract year, that is unless he chooses to sit out for a new deal now, which I don't think he'll do.

.

You sure put a lot of stock in a friggen wedding ring. :tsk:

I hope you're right though.

[silkamilkamonico]

Who would you rather sign to a huge long term deal? Brandon Marshall or Anquan Boldin? We can sign Brandon Marshall now to lock him up, over and done with or sign Anquan Boldin this off season and access Brandon Marshall for one more year.

For top 5 WR money? Neither one.

[CoachChaz]

Who would you rather sign to a huge long term deal? Brandon Marshall or Anquan Boldin? We can sign Brandon Marshall now to lock him up, over and done with or sign Anquan Boldin this off season and access Brandon Marshall for one more year. From there we can either also sign Marshall and have 2 huge stud WRs or let him go and keep only Boldin.


Keep in mind Boldin was kind T.O.-ish arguing with his coach on national TV during the NFCCG of all things. Good thing for the coach the Cards won and Boldin is the one looking kinda stupid.

.

Boldin has proven his value over time. He missed 4 games this season and still caught 89 passes for 1038 and 11 TD's while sharing the field with a guy that many are calling the best WR in the game.

25 of his 89 catches were on 3rd down and 11 of them were for TD's. The great Fitz had 96 catches with only one more TD and only 13 of them on 3rd down.

Boldin is a great talent and a stud receiver. My biggest concern with him is his ability to play 16 games every year. Based on that, I wouldnt pay him top 5 money either, but I also wouldnt put Marshall in his class.

[CoachChaz]

Definitely. Good WR are everywhere, but its the TANDEMS that kill people. I really like Royal and Marshall because they compliment each other very well. Its a pick you poison. Cover the big target who will run you over, or double up the speedy little guy who can burn you for big plays. I think next year we see a lot of Royal between the 20's, and Marshall (hopefully) catching up for grab fade routes in the end zone. He's just way too talented and young for me to see him blossom in another system. It would be right up there with the Portis trade for me, the big difference is that Brandon actually likes it here. Don't forget him and Cutler seem to have good chemistry, too.

Exactly. Marshall is a possession receiver and Royal is the field stretcher. I expect Marshall to catch 100 passes for 1200 yards and 10 TD's. Those number are fitting of his role and ability...asuuming he stops dropping passes.

Royal is a guy that should get about 70 receptions for similar yards.

The key is the tandem. Even McCaffrey and Smith both caught 100 balls in a season together, but were either of them really top 5?

[Italianmobstr7]

He had no off the field problems during the season.
He's a dynamic player and one of the best in the NFL.
He was targeted a lot, but he deserved to be.
He may have been up there in drops, but no one knows the real cause of the problem.
He's big, physical, and he CAN make the big play.
One of the reasons he didn't have as many big plays this year is because of play selection. He can't control that.
Brandon Marshall had better stay in Denver for a very long time.
If he wants a top 5 contract, then he should get it. He's a top 5 WR.

[BroncoJoe]

He's top 10 for sure. Not sure about top 5 though.

[CoachChaz]

When we can honestly put Marshall's name up there with Andre Johnson, Steve Smith, Randy Moss, Larry Fitzgerald, etc. Then I'll pay him top 5 money. But he has a way to go to prove that worth.

[Nature Boy]

Boldin has proven his value over time. He missed 4 games this season and still caught 89 passes for 1038 and 11 TD's while sharing the field with a guy that many are calling the best WR in the game.

25 of his 89 catches were on 3rd down and 11 of them were for TD's. The great Fitz had 96 catches with only one more TD and only 13 of them on 3rd down.

Boldin is a great talent and a stud receiver. My biggest concern with him is his ability to play 16 games every year. Based on that, I wouldnt pay him top 5 money either, but I also wouldnt put Marshall in his class.


Let's see. Boldin missed 2 games last year because of this playbelow. He came back from it in only 3 weeks time with a bye week mixed in.

j9RfJwSkMU8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9RfJwSkMU8

Boldin suffered a broken upper jaw, face, nasal cavity. Most guys would sit out the remainder of the season and think twice about going down the middle but not Boldin. He came back and didn;t miss a beat.

Would I take Boldin over Marshall, I don't know, maybe not only because I am partial to a Broncos player. But can you imagine the trio of Marshall, Boldin and Royal? Ouch!!! :shocked::shocked::shocked:

.

[BroncoTech]

He's a middle of the road receiver on an 8 and 8 team. He's the epitome of 'league average' and has the dropsy's. I'd offer him league average money and he can take it or be gone. If he was gone maybe our quarterback would throw it away more instead of always forcing it in to 15. He's a 'showboat Willy' player and can be replaced with a rookie with a gnarley work ethic. The pro bowl was a one game readers digest version of his whole season.

[turftoad]

Who would you rather sign to a huge long term deal? Brandon Marshall or Anquan Boldin? We can sign Brandon Marshall now to lock him up, over and done with or sign Anquan Boldin this off season and access Brandon Marshall for one more year. From there we can either also sign Marshall and have 2 huge stud WRs or let him go and keep only Boldin.


Keep in mind Boldin was kind T.O.-ish arguing with his coach on national TV during the NFCCG of all things. Good thing for the coach the Cards won and Boldin is the one looking kinda stupid.
.


Let's see. Boldin missed 2 games last year because of this playbelow. He came back from it in only 3 weeks time with a bye week mixed in.
j9RfJwSkMU8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9RfJwSkMU8

.

We aren't talking about Boldin here.

[CoachChaz]

Let's see. Boldin missed 2 games last year because of this playbelow. He came back from it in only 3 weeks time with a bye week mixed in.


Boldin suffered a broken upper jaw, face, nasal cavity. Most guys would sit out the remainder of the season and think twice about going down the middle but not Boldin. He came back and didn;t miss a beat.

Would I take Boldin over Marshall, I don't know, maybe not only because I am partial to a Broncos player. But can you imagine the trio of Marshall, Boldin and Royal? Ouch!!! :shocked::shocked::shocked:

.

Only 2 games this past season? Try 4.

6 seasons in the league and he's played 16 games only twice.

2003 - 16
2004 - 10
2005 - 14
2006 - 16
2007 - 12
2008 - 12

[JKcatch724]

He's a middle of the road receiver on an 8 and 8 team. He's the epitome of 'league average' and has the dropsy's. I'd offer him league average money and he can take it or be gone. If he was gone maybe our quarterback would throw it away more instead of always forcing it in to 15. He's a 'showboat Willy' player and can be replaced with a rookie with a gnarley work ethic. The pro bowl was a one game readers digest version of his whole season.

Just curious as to what makes Brandon "middle of the road". Was it the Pro Bowl selection or the 100 catches?

Honestly. Just be thankful he's not a Drew Rosenhaus guy because then he'd be asking for top 1 or 2 money AND a ticket out of Denver. Some of you guys calling for his head would look like idiots if he went somewhere else, especially this early in his career.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

The money doesn't even matter anymore. God yes, you re-sign him.

[CoachChaz]

Just curious as to what makes Brandon "middle of the road". Was it the Pro Bowl selection or the 100 catches?

Honestly. Just be thankful he's not a Drew Rosenhaus guy because then he'd be asking for top 1 or 2 money AND a ticket out of Denver. Some of you guys calling for his head would look like idiots if he went somewhere else, especially this early in his career.

No one is calling for his head, just not ready to call him top 5 in the NFL.

Then again, Welker had 223 receptions the past 2 seasons, so I guess he should probably start demanding to be paid with the elite as well.

[JKcatch724]

No one is calling for his head, just not ready to call him top 5 in the NFL.

Then again, Welker had 223 receptions the past 2 seasons, so I guess he should probably start demanding to be paid with the elite as well.

I don't know if I'd call him top 5 RIGHT NOW either. But I'm betting that he will be someday soon, though, and should be paid accordingly.

As for Welker, what did he ever do without Randy Moss? Wouldn't you like to see Eddie do similar things under Brandon?

[CoachChaz]

I don't know if I'd call him top 5 RIGHT NOW either. But I'm betting that he will be someday soon, though, and should be paid accordingly.

As for Welker, what did he ever do without Randy Moss? Wouldn't you like to see Eddie do similar things under Brandon?

Without Randy Moss, Welker played for a poor Miami team. But if we are going to say Welker plays this way because of Moss, then we'd have to say that Fitzgerald gets his opportunities because of Boldin. Boldin was there first and was the big gun before Fitz, so it's only fitting, right?

And really...Moss had 69 receptions this season and Welker had 111. Does having a top talent on the other side of the field really make ALL the reason for a difference of 42 catches?

[JKcatch724]

Without Randy Moss, Welker played for a poor Miami team. But if we are going to say Welker plays this way because of Moss, then we'd have to say that Fitzgerald gets his opportunities because of Boldin. Boldin was there first and was the big gun before Fitz, so it's only fitting, right?

And really...Moss had 69 receptions this season and Welker had 111. Does having a top talent on the other side of the field really make ALL the reason for a difference of 42 catches?

No, but I'd much rather have Eddie one on one while Marshall attracts 2+ defenders. Eddie's still a good receiver in his own right... Why not keep both and let them have a chance to become one of those tandems?

[OB]

JMO - but i was not impressed yesterday (but watched sparingly) - Top 5 in pay - I dont think so - he must do alot more before he gets to be top 5 in pay esp. with all of his off the field antics - Shannon (and TO) etc have the room to be mouthy - they always backed it up - BMarsh has yet to prove himself in a big way

[JKcatch724]

JMO - but i was not impressed yesterday (but watched sparingly) - Top 5 in pay - I dont think so - he must do alot more before he gets to be top 5 in pay esp. with all of his off the field antics - Shannon (and TO) etc have the room to be mouthy - they always backed it up - BMarsh has yet to prove himself in a big way

TO has been dropping passes like it's an incentive in his contract. And he does waaaay more talking than Brandon.

[Slick]

I'd resign him. We're going to have to dictate a lot more money towards the defense to be a competitive team again, but I still think we need to sign him. After Royal we have an aging concussion prone Stokley, and who else exactly? We don't need to add finding a new #1 WR to the long list of needs this team has.


Sheffler on the other hand, maybe, but not for big money.

[CoachChaz]

No, but I'd much rather have Eddie one on one while Marshall attracts 2+ defenders. Eddie's still a good receiver in his own right... Why not keep both and let them have a chance to become one of those tandems?

I would definately re-sign Brandon and would thoroughly enjoy the tandem of him and Royal.

But no way do I give Marshall top 5 money until he proves he's top 5 talent.

[OB]

The question is should we resign him for TOP 5 WR money - I dont think he is

TO - in his own right - is a great rcvr - would i want him - HELL NO!!! - does he have some room to run his mouth - i believe he does - not as MUCH as he does - but I thought Shannon went overboard sometimes too - but then again i really dislike it when players are all show boaty and run their mouths - its classless IMHO - whether or not you can back it up and personally wouldnt pick too many guys - regardless of talent - who did that on a regular basis

[dogfish]

meh. . . top five, not top five-- sounds like arguing over semantics to me. . . besides, the price of free agents goes up almost every year-- the contract that bernard berrian signed last year is worth the exact same total amount and years as steve smith's current contract, and is worth more than reggie wayne's current deal with the same amount of years. . . . so how do you define "top five" money? is it the average of what the five best receivers are currently making? or is it the average of the five biggest wide receiver contracts out there? because the five best receivers in football may not be the exact same as the top five highest paid. . .


and when you're comparing contracts, you also get into guaranteed money (signing bonus) vs. base salary and how much of it is likely to actually be earned, roster bonuses, incentives, etc. . . then take into account that players more often than not don't play out the entire length of their current deals, as they frequently either sign extensions or get cut before they reach the big base salaries at the back end, or force renegotiations because they aren't happy with the deal anymore. . . fitz's new deal that reportedly averages about ten mil per year over the life of the contract will be the new gold standard for WR deals, but i don't know that i see ANYONE equaling that for the next few years, especially because andre johnson just signed an extension a year ago. . .

certainly marshall isn't going to get that kind of money unless he puts up 130-1750 and 18 TDs this season. . . but i think the bottom line is that he's going to get paid, and paid well-- probably by denver, because he's earned it. . . he's a solid #1 by both production and skillset, and he not only makes plays but also opens things up for the rest of the offense. . . without him (or a comparable player), our receiving corps is WELL below average IMO-- and if we don't re-sign him who we gonna get that's better or will come cheaper? probably no one, which means going back to the draft and starting over at square one. . . i don't think pat wants that, i don't think mcdaniels wants it, and i know the fans sure as hell don't want it! even if we have to "overpay" a little, i'd rather do it for marshall than somebody like bernard berrian, or old man houshmandzadeh. . .

so pay the man. . . .


edit:

he finished 3rd in receptions, 7th in receiving yards, 8th in 20+ yard receptions and 4th in first down catches. . . throw in a couple more touchdowns and he's a top ten in all of the most important statistical categories. . . the only guys whose stats are better pretty much across the board are andre johnson and larry fitzgerald, both of whom have more years in the league than marshall and are legit superstars in the prime of their careers-- give him another year or two and there's no reason why we shouldn't expect him to be right at the top of all the statistical categories, just like the other true elites at the position. . .

[Nature Boy]

Only 2 games this past season? Try 4.

6 seasons in the league and he's played 16 games only twice.

2003 - 16
2004 - 10
2005 - 14
2006 - 16
2007 - 12
2008 - 12


I'm aware of the 4. I was only pointing out the 2 that he missed. I don't know why he missed the other 2 games. I didn't follow the Cards that closely.

Despite missing 4 games, Boldin still almost got 100 receptions. Quite amazing. The guy plays the WR position with a LB's attitude.

.

The guy is good, definitely one of the top 10 WRs in the league.

[Spiritguy]

The kid is a phenomenon. Even Gonzalez remarked how B-Marsh impressed him. And I'm not sure future lock to the HOF Gonzo is that easily impressed after all he has seen in his career.

B-Marsh has yet to really break out. But, with his attitude toward the off-
season, he will, and when he does, everything I saw this year in Fitzgerald I could see B-Marsh doing.
-----

Peyton Manning in an interview during the PB said that Brandon was one of three guys he was trying to "recruit" over the week. To me, that speaks to the potential that others in the league see in him.

I totally agree Top. If Brandon can be taught to go after the ball and see every ball sent his way as his, like Fitz he will become a top 5 guy. Question is, will he?

[CoachChaz]

Peyton Manning in an interview during the PB said that Brandon was one of three guys he was trying to "recruit" over the week. To me, that speaks to the potential that others in the league see in him.

I totally agree Top. If Brandon can be taught to go after the ball and see every ball sent his way as his, like Fitz he will become a top 5 guy. Question is, will he?

EXACTLY. And until he does, I refuse to pay him according to his "potential"

[Nature Boy]

Just curious as to what makes Brandon "middle of the road". Was it the Pro Bowl selection or the 100 catches?




It might be the poor outing at the Pro-Bowl. I bet if Cutler and especially Marshall lid it up at the Pro-Bowl, these same few guys pushing Marshall under the bus would be the 1st to throw him a parade.

I love this forum. Everyone knows everything about everything and only their opinion matters; just like me. :D

.

[Ziggy]

EXACTLY. And until he does, I refuse to pay him according to his "potential"

I agree. He has also only been out of trouble recently. I'd like to see him stay clean for at least 2.5 -3 years before I invest big money in him. I'd also have a hand specialist check him out before I gave him big money. The drops worry me. What the drop statistic doesn't take into account is how many balls he juggled before he got ahold of them. If it were one issue or the other, I'd might be inclined to make him a top 5 paid guy, but I'd still think twice about it. The fact that he has had off field troubles AND drops balls worry me.

[CoachChaz]

Now we're pushing him under the bus. Seems to me all we're saying is he isnt quite worthy of being paid like a top 5 receiver, but translate it how you wish. Everyone else does

[Ziggy]

It might be the poor outing at the Pro-Bowl. I bet if Cutler and especially Marshall lid it up at the Pro-Bowl, these same few guys pushing Marshall under the bus would be the 1st to throw him a parade.

I love this forum. Everyone knows everything about everything and only their opinion matters; just like me. :D

.

The pro bowl had nothing to do with this thread. I have already talked about entertaining the thought of trading Marshall as long as a month ago on other threads. Most on here disagree, but it's my opinion. I'd rather have a pro bowl caliber defensive lineman than a pro bowl caliber WR.

[CoachChaz]

A top 5 WR will only dictate a game when it's needed. Boldin and Fitgerald do it because there is no running game. The opposite is Steve Smith. he can dictate a game, but this year wasnt required too and it showed. Why? Carolina had a running game.

So, with a solid running game, we'd be just fine with Marshall catching 70-80 passses...assuming he caught them.

[Lonestar]

I'm aware of the 4. I was only pointing out the 2 that he missed. I don't know why he missed the other 2 games. I didn't follow the Cards that closely.

Despite missing 4 games, Boldin still almost got 100 receptions. Quite amazing. The guy plays the WR position with a LB's attitude.

.

The guy is good, definitely one of the top 10 WRs in the league.

If I heard correctly he got his jaw broke in a game brutal hit helmet on the jaw.. was taken to the hospital and they did surgery on him without anesthetic to put under. literally opened up the inside of his mouth removed the jaw bone put some screws (I heard like 30 but that sound high) in it and pulled the skin and inside of his mouth back on it. Sewed him back up and he played football 4 weeks later..

If true a tough guy.. Not sure I'd like his attitude he seems real angry about Fitz having a huge contract.. Fitz was asked and said he'd take a cut so they could stay together..

[G_Money]

Brandon Marshall has the skills to be one of the greatest receivers to ever play the game.

He's huge, fast, cares about his sport, can run any route, is a tough cover for any corner in the league, should be able to outfight any DB for a ball, is a large target on any part of the field but especially in the red zone, and can break a lot of tackles. In short, he's a beast, which is why he calls himself one.

He's also put his arm through a TV, has nerve damage in his arm that should heal over the next year but might never heal, has had enough off-the-field incidents now to warrant suspension by the league, drops a lot of passes, fumbles more than he should, didn't score a lot of TDs and takes a lot of shots because he refuses to go down.

Would I pay him a top-5 receiver salary?

Well, the franchise number for the year (combined average of top-5 salaries at the position) for WRs is $9.88 million.

That'd be a 5 year, 50 million dollar contract or thereabouts, though very few people do it that way.

It depends how much guaranteed money is in the deal. I'd pay that for Brandon if my guarantees were limited or there were escalators for future performance in it.

Nate Clements' contract was a giant number, guys are paying 50 million dollars for 30+ year old guards...The numbers aren't completely ludicrous.

In some respects you're paying for future improvement, but what's scary about Brandon is that he has future improvement from this year available to him.

This is NOT the best he can possibly be. He's not maxed out yet.

If you sign him to a top-5 contract this year, then you avoid the yearly inflation that will hit if we wait til after next season. Maybe he pulls a DJ and gets injured, and so lowers what we might have had to pay him. Maybe he throws up a 120 catch, 18 TD season and we cry when we think about what it will take to sign him with the whole universe bidding against us.

If you think his arm is gonna get better and he's gonna keep improving as a receiver and a man, then you pay him. You're not likely to find another receiver as good in the draft, that's for sure, and Boldin will cost you since he's under contract to the Cardinals still - while having his own health and attitude issues.

If you think he's gonna regress instead of progress, then for God's sake don't pay him.

I'd pay him, because I think he's gonna get better.

But I can see the opposing argument. It's a lot of green to throw at a guy, when he might be more Dre Bly and less Champ Bailey.

~G

[Nature Boy]

If I heard correctly he got his jaw broke in a game brutal hit helmet on the jaw.. was taken to the hospital and they did surgery on him without anesthetic to put under. literally opened up the inside of his mouth removed the jaw bone put some screws (I heard like 30 but that sound high) in it and pulled the skin and inside of his mouth back on it. Sewed him back up and he played football 4 weeks later..

If true a tough guy.. Not sure I'd like his attitude he seems real angry about Fitz having a huge contract.. Fitz was asked and said he'd take a cut so they could stay together..


Yea, he did not take any anesthesia during his surgery. The procedure was no ordinary walk in the park stitching. Crazy!

.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Most of you are focusing too much on the player's rank and not his impact on the team. I thin he'sa top 7 talent. Top 3 or 4 ifhis hand gets right. Dude has been incredible for 2 years now and we've done dick. Now I know the D has sucked, but decisions have to be madein regards t where the money should go. You can win SBs w/o mega-talented WRs. You can't win w/o defense. Brandon is a bad mamma jamma and I'm not gonna hate on his drops, hand and past behavior. The reason I wouldn't pay HUGE money for him is because I don't se WR as a key position to win. Steeleres have 2 very solid WRs in Ward and Holmes, but they won w/ defense. Same w/ the Giants, Buccaneers, the 05 Steelers and the pre-Moss Pats. All had good WRs, but great defenses. Hell...even the Colts needed their D to step up to even have a shot at a ring. The last team to win solely w/ offense was the Rams...10 years ago. During that time, we've seen the Colts fail almost annually, the Bengals' tandem put up great numbers yet not win 1 playoff game and the Lions and Cowboys under achieve w/ their WR talet. We don't NEED BMarsh to win...although we do need a very good compliment to Royal. I'd love for BMarsh to be that compliment, but I think he'll price himself right out of Denver.

[JKcatch724]

What G said.

[Den21vsBal19]

I'll admit that I've never really spent the time trying to figure out how these things impact on the salary cap, but is there any reason why we can't have the best of all worlds......................

Give Brandon a contract that whilst decent doesn't pay him as a top-5 reciever, but build in achievable bonuses so that if he perfoms like a top-5 reciever, then he gets paid like one?

Yes it might take some juggling in later years, but if he perfoms like we believe he can it would be worth it..........................and if he fails then we don't get a massive hit down the line

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I'll admit that I've never really spent the time trying to figure out how these things impact on the salary cap, but is there any reason why we can't have the best of all worlds......................

Give Brandon a contract that whilst decent doesn't pay him as a top-5 reciever, but build in achievable bonuses so that if he perfoms like a top-5 reciever, then he gets paid like one?

Yes it might take some juggling in later years, but if he perfoms like we believe he can it would be worth it..........................and if he fails then we don't get a massive hit down the line

...while 5 other teams line up to pay him whtever he wants w/o all the stipulations. Growing up or not, he's a diva. He'll want top dollar. And more power to him if he can get it.

[Simple Jaded]

Top5 money? No!

He's just not a Top5 receiver, imo, he's still inconsistent and he can't adjust to/high point the ball to save his ass.......the first Manning in-completion in the PB is what I'm talking about. The ball was placed as well as you can expect, all Marshall had to do was turn his hips and get the ball at it's highest, instead he tried to catch it over his shoulder and it went right through his hands. I don't expect Larry Fitzgerald, but Fitzgerald is the measure to which Marshall and his next contract will be measured, and Marshall has to do better than that, imo.

And to be quite honest, I'm waiting to see if defenses have learned to limit his effectiveness by limiting his after the catch yardage, he had way too much East/West running after the catch last season, if Marshall has a repeat of that in 09 I don't think he's Top5.......his after the catch ability is what makes him special, hopefully the new offense can free him up.......

[Ziggy]

I'll admit that I've never really spent the time trying to figure out how these things impact on the salary cap, but is there any reason why we can't have the best of all worlds......................

Give Brandon a contract that whilst decent doesn't pay him as a top-5 reciever, but build in achievable bonuses so that if he perfoms like a top-5 reciever, then he gets paid like one?
Yes it might take some juggling in later years, but if he perfoms like we believe he can it would be worth it..........................and if he fails then we don't get a massive hit down the line


Not going to happen. How many players do you know that will pass up guarunteed money from another team to take an incentive-laden contract with thier team? I just don't see Marshall being one of the few that do that, and he really has no reason to. Teams will be lining up to sign him, or trade for him.

[WARHORSE]

Total yards don't mean crapola unless you're scoring points. 16th in that category.


It is what it is, in both cases.

[TXBRONC]

Absolutely, because unless the dropped pass is due to physical considerations it can be corrected.

[EMB6903]

Brandon Marshall has had 2 100+ reception years, and 2 years where he has surpassed 1200+ yards recieving in his first 3 years in the NFL, are we seriously arguing if we should keep him?

What were Steve Smith, and Andre Johnsons numbers their first 3 years in the NFL? not nearly as impressive as Marshalls, hell Moss only has had 2 years over 100+ receptions in his entire career... Marshall already has 2 in his first 3 years... how you gonna hate on the guys YPC knowing that he played in a west coast offense ever since he entered the league? and Im tired of people saying Marshall cannot stretch the field... I cant begin to tell you how many times Marshall had his man beat deep and Jay under threw it(for some one who has a reputation of having a great arm Cutler sure under throws every fade he throws)

[Ziggy]

Absolutely, because unless the dropped pass is due to physical considerations it can be corrected.

The problem is, no one can prove that his dropped passes AREN'T a result of lingereing effects from his hand injury. Effects that may never go away.

[Lonestar]

The problem is, no one can prove that his dropped passes AREN'T a result of lingereing effects from his hand injury. Effects that may never go away.

I also think some of it is between the ears.. which can be corrected..

I'm guessing that the new coaching staff will make a better evaluation on it and correct it or show him how to compensate for it..

[jrelway]

marshall had done all he can to deserve a nice contract from us. just the way he draws those double teams should be money in the bank. i bet any nfl team in this league would swoop him up with a quickness for a big $$ deal. pay him and pay him now. the guys only getting better.

[CoachChaz]

Brandon Marshall has had 2 100+ reception years, and 2 years where he has surpassed 1200+ yards recieving in his first 3 years in the NFL, are we seriously arguing if we should keep him?

What were Steve Smith, and Andre Johnsons numbers their first 3 years in the NFL? not nearly as impressive as Marshalls, hell Moss only has had 2 years over 100+ receptions in his entire career... Marshall already has 2 in his first 3 years... how you gonna hate on the guys YPC knowing that he played in a west coast offense ever since he entered the league? and Im tired of people saying Marshall cannot stretch the field... I cant begin to tell you how many times Marshall had his man beat deep and Jay under threw it(for some one who has a reputation of having a great arm Cutler sure under throws every fade he throws)

Again I ask. Who would give Welker a top 5 contract? He has more catches in the last two years than Marshall. But I guess the excuse there is he is open more because he plays with Moss. Surely someone will come up with that

[dogfish]

i guess i'm not entirely undrestanding the logic-- even with the drops he's still had two fantastic seasons. . . the production is there. . . would i rather he caught every single ball anywhere close to him? sure, of course, but he's still producing at a very high level, especially for a guy from a small school with just over two years starting experience. . .

and he's hardly the only guy in the league that drops passes-- bernard berrian drops just as many, and he just got signed last year to a monster deal (equal to the current deals of steve smith and reggie wayne as i said earlier, though no doubt they'll be trying to rework those soon enough). . . roddy white had pretty inconsistent hands earlier in his career, although he's made definite strides in that area. . . heck, TO drops a lot of balls, and he's still going to go down as one of the most prolific and deadly wideouts in the entire history of the game. . .

hey, nobody likes to see the guy drop passes, but he still catches more than enough to make up for it IMO. . . for me, the bottom line is really this-- i think we all know that mcdaniels wants to throw the ball, and with the QB, the line and the complimentary wideouts we have, it would be a mistake not to. . . if we had a dominant running game and a top five defense i wouldn't be as opposed to letting marshall go, but we don't, and on the defensive side we're nowhere close. . . and frankly, i just don't believe that bowlen brought in another OC from a high-flying offense because he wants the team made over in the image of the ravens--debate the wisdom of such a move if you want, but i just don't think it's happening. . .

and if we want to continue to build on the progress we've made with the offense the past two years, we need a legitimate number one receiver, and that generally means paying for one. . . they don't grow on trees, and unless we want to go back to the drawing board and ask an unproven rookie to fill those shoes, we're eventually going to have to pay somebody like a number one, whether it's brandon or somebody else. . . eddie royal just isn't a one, and stokley isn't close and can't be counted on much longer anways-- and there's no one else on the team even worth mentioning for that role. . . anquan boldin's been mentioned, but the cards haven't shown any inclination yet to move him, and even if they do we'd have to give up a high draft pick AND pay just as much if not more. . . and i don't see any other legit options out there right now other than the aging tj houshmandzadeh-- and no way i'd rather pay him than brandon!

while i agree in theory with coach's comments about being able to get by without a true number one (i've made very similar comments in the past myself, he's absolutely right), i think that's predicated on being able to dominate in other facets of the game. . . and we can't do that. . . so when we have pitt's defense and buffalo's special teams, instead of our current trainwrecks, then maybe i'll consider letting our most prolific offensive threat walk. . . but given the direction i see our owner, FO and coaching staff wanting to go with the franchise, i don't think that's going to happen unless he screw up off the field again-- if he keeps his nose clean and produces another 100 catch, 1,200-1,300 yard and 6-8+ TD season, i think he's getting paid, and getting paid here. . . .

[CoachChaz]

I'm not against paying him...I just dont want to break the bank to do it. My guess is there are probably alot of guys out there that can have 180 balls thrown to them and haul in 104 of them.

[EMB6903]

Again I ask. Who would give Welker a top 5 contract? He has more catches in the last two years than Marshall. But I guess the excuse there is he is open more because he plays with Moss. Surely someone will come up with that

you are comparing a guy who gets majority of his receptions in the slot going against safeties, Nickel Backs, and Linebackers to a #1 Reciever.... No need to argue this one

[topscribe]

Again I ask. Who would give Welker a top 5 contract? He has more catches in the last two years than Marshall. But I guess the excuse there is he is open more because he plays with Moss. Surely someone will come up with that

Of course, Welker is a top receiver. But what does that have to do with
whether Marshall is worth the money?

Nonetheless, are you aware that in his second year Welker caught all of 67
passes? In his third and and and fourth years, Welker has exceeded 100
catches . . . which Marshall has achieved in his second and third years, each
year with more yardage than Welker managed.

So how did Marshall achieve that without getting open?


I'm not against paying him...I just dont want to break the bank to do it. My guess is there are probably alot of guys out there that can have 180 balls thrown to them and haul in 104 of them.

And that is what it is: your guess. Reality is, Marshall did, and a lot of guys didn't.

-----

[Lonestar]

I'm not against paying him...I just dont want to break the bank to do it. My guess is there are probably alot of guys out there that can have 180 balls thrown to them and haul in 104 of them.


I think they have to determine if the hand/arm is healed or getting better it was rumored last year he said he still has no feeling in the right hand..

If it doe snot get better then he is damaged goods and while he is a stud potentially I would hope the difference between 50 mil dollar deal and 40 would keep him in DEN with the potential of being on a championship team for the foreseeable future..

10mil is chicken feed if he invests wisely and does sign a great pre nup..:laugh::laugh:

[EMB6903]

I'm not against paying him...I just dont want to break the bank to do it. My guess is there are probably alot of guys out there that can have 180 balls thrown to them and haul in 104 of them.

when you have a talent like Brandon Marshall you dont let him go, in just 3 years hes went from a 4th rounder who nobody outside of Denver knew to a starting Pro bowl reciever, and to think he hasnt reached his full potential yet. Hes going to get paid, as he deserves to be.

[EMB6903]

I think they have to determine if the hand/arm is healed or getting better it was rumored last year he said he still has no feeling in the right hand..

If it doe snot get better then he is damaged goods and while he is a stud potentially I would hope the difference between 50 mil dollar deal and 40 would keep him in DEN with the potential of being on a championship team for the foreseeable future..

10mil is chicken feed if he invests wisely and does sign a great pre nup..:laugh::laugh:


I dont understand how you can say somebody who just caught 104 receptions for 1200+ yards "damaged goods" if so Ill take it.

[TXBRONC]

The problem is, no one can prove that his dropped passes AREN'T a result of lingereing effects from his hand injury. Effects that may never go away.

Actually it can be figured out if its nerve damage.

[Lonestar]

I dont understand how you can say somebody who just caught 104 receptions for 1200+ yards "damaged goods" if so Ill take it.

it is real easy His right arm was severely damaged last off season cut arteries and NERVES to the hand.. If he has NO feeling in the hand like was reported then He is damaged goods..

If it takes 181 pases for brandon to catch 104 of them that is 57.7% where as others like Eddie caught 91 out of 129 for 70.5%, Scheffler 40 of 61 for 65.6% graham 32-50 for 64%.. Hillis 14-19 74% for that matter Darell Jackson 12-20 for 57.2% why not just pay Jackson less and throw to them all more and save 40 mill over 5 years..

When the production that Jackson equals the same % as Marshall what does that tell you?.. Tells me damaged good and he may be expendable unless the price is right..

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/teams/stats/2008/broncos/

[Northman]

I say bring back Plummer and Lelie.

[topscribe]

I say bring back Plummer and Lelie.

Any chances of recruiting the guy in your avvy for MLB?

-----

[CoachChaz]

Of course, Welker is a top receiver. But what does that have to do with
whether Marshall is worth the money?

Nonetheless, are you aware that in his second year Welker caught all of 67
passes? In his third and and and fourth years, Welker has exceeded 100
catches . . . which Marshall has achieved in his second and third years, each
year with more yardage than Welker managed.

So how did Marshall achieve that without getting open?



And that is what it is: your guess. Reality is, Marshall did, and a lot of guys didn't.

-----


And they didnt because of the system or playing time. Put Marshall or Welker in Pittsburgh and they never see 100 balls...let alone catch that many. Welker is a perfect example considering what he did in Miami compared to what he did in NE. The system can dictate the perfoemance. No one thinks Roddy White or Greg Jennings should be paid top 5, but why not? They're performing excellently in their situations.

It's kind of like someone playing for the Rockies. Odds are slim they'll hit 40 HR's playing in Atlanta all year because there were things that made them successful. As there are when you play in the offenses marshall and Welker played in.

I'm not saying Marshall isn't good and I'm not saying I dont want to keep him. I'd love to have him for 10 more years. Hell, I've even dropped the coin on authentic #15 jerseys for me and 2 of my sons.

...but I'm still not ever going to break the bank on paying a WR.

[Northman]

Any chances of recruiting the guy in your avvy for MLB?

-----

Yea, its possible. But only for Night games.

[turftoad]

it is real easy His right arm was severely damaged last off season cut arteries and NERVES to the hand.. If he has NO feeling in the hand like was reported then He is damaged goods..

If it takes 181 pases for brandon to catch 104 of them that is 57.7% where as others like Eddie caught 91 out of 129 for 70.5%, Scheffler 40 of 61 for 65.6% graham 32-50 for 64%.. Hillis 14-19 74% for that matter Darell Jackson 12-20 for 57.2% why not just pay Jackson less and throw to them all more and save 40 mill over 5 years..

When the production that Jackson equals the same % as Marshall what does that tell you?.. Tells me damaged good and he may be expendable unless the price is right..

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/teams/stats/2008/broncos/

I agree he should have caught more of those passes. That said, just because he was targeted 181 times doesn't mean they were all catchable balls.

I mean, Jay looked at Marshall to much last year. He forced a lot of those balls to B.Marsh, threw to him in double coverage a lot etc... etc...

Yeah he dropped a few but this stat is not very spot on.

I would much rather have him at a higher price than Jackson.

[CoachChaz]

it is real easy His right arm was severely damaged last off season cut arteries and NERVES to the hand.. If he has NO feeling in the hand like was reported then He is damaged goods..

If it takes 181 pases for brandon to catch 104 of them that is 57.7% where as others like Eddie caught 91 out of 129 for 70.5%, Scheffler 40 of 61 for 65.6% graham 32-50 for 64%.. Hillis 14-19 74% for that matter Darell Jackson 12-20 for 57.2% why not just pay Jackson less and throw to them all more and save 40 mill over 5 years..

When the production that Jackson equals the same % as Marshall what does that tell you?.. Tells me damaged good and he may be expendable unless the price is right..

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/teams/stats/2008/broncos/

That kind of follows my point. there are guys out there that can produce equally or maybe even better than Brandon if given the same opportunities.

[broncohead]

it is real easy His right arm was severely damaged last off season cut arteries and NERVES to the hand.. If he has NO feeling in the hand like was reported then He is damaged goods..

If it takes 181 pases for brandon to catch 104 of them that is 57.7% where as others like Eddie caught 91 out of 129 for 70.5%, Scheffler 40 of 61 for 65.6% graham 32-50 for 64%.. Hillis 14-19 74% for that matter Darell Jackson 12-20 for 57.2% why not just pay Jackson less and throw to them all more and save 40 mill over 5 years..

When the production that Jackson equals the same % as Marshall what does that tell you?.. Tells me damaged good and he may be expendable unless the price is right..

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/teams/stats/2008/broncos/

Theres a lot more that goes into it then a percentage. He was double covered a lot this year and Jay always threw the ball to him when he wasn't even open. How many of those passes where actually catchable. I know he dropped some easy ones but a number doesn't tell the whole story.

[EMB6903]

it is real easy His right arm was severely damaged last off season cut arteries and NERVES to the hand.. If he has NO feeling in the hand like was reported then He is damaged goods..

If it takes 181 pases for brandon to catch 104 of them that is 57.7% where as others like Eddie caught 91 out of 129 for 70.5%, Scheffler 40 of 61 for 65.6% graham 32-50 for 64%.. Hillis 14-19 74% for that matter Darell Jackson 12-20 for 57.2% why not just pay Jackson less and throw to them all more and save 40 mill over 5 years..

When the production that Jackson equals the same % as Marshall what does that tell you?.. Tells me damaged good and he may be expendable unless the price is right..

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/teams/stats/2008/broncos/




you think Jackson's 12 receptions out of 20 times thrown to is the same production as marshalls 104 receptions out of 181 times thrown too?

these stats are complete garbage though, Cutler didnt force nearly as many throws into double coverage to Royal, Stokley, Hillis (hilarious you would bring up a RB who catches hitches and swing routes out of the back field) as he did to Brandon Marshall, I would shake my head some times at the Throws Jay would try to throw into double sometimes even triple coverage to Brandon Marshall that were impossible to catch.... so these stats are clearly misleading.. sorry

[CoachChaz]

There is no doubt that the % number can be skewed based on catchable balls, coverage, etc. but it's still pretty safe to say that you could plug in ALOT of guys and get similar results. Why go overboard paying one guy to do it if another one will?

[Lonestar]

I agree he should have caught more of those passes. That said, just because he was targeted 181 times doesn't mean they were all catchable balls.

I mean, Jay looked at Marshall to much last year. He forced a lot of those balls the B.Marsh, threw to him in double coverage a lot etc... etc...

Yeah he dropped a few but this stat is not very spot on.

but they were thrown to him for what ever reason he did not catch them if he was over or under thrown or simple defensed they were still thrown at him.. If the other WR/TE/Rb are getting a higher % caught pass the ball around to them and pick up someone that will not break the bank that may have a bad Hand forever..

If Jackson caught the same percentage and costs 1/3 as much then sign him long term.. and pass the ball around to those that can either catch the ball or be in position to do so..

BTW IIRC Brandon had the largest number of actual dropped ball in the NFL this year.. was it between the ears or hand?

[broncohead]

There is no doubt that the % number can be skewed based on catchable balls, coverage, etc. but it's still pretty safe to say that you could plug in ALOT of guys and get similar results. Why go overboard paying one guy to do it if another one will?

When Jays first read wan't open or if he faced any pressure he would throw it to Marshall even if he was covered. People said the same thing on this board during the games. Why are we even talking about Marshall getting paid top 5 money anyway? Is he demanding it?

[Northman]

There is no doubt that the % number can be skewed based on catchable balls, coverage, etc. but it's still pretty safe to say that you could plug in ALOT of guys and get similar results. Why go overboard paying one guy to do it if another one will?

Coach has a point. I love Brandon and think like Jay will improve with time but if he wants to break the bank im not willing to go there (at least as a fan). If Brandon likes Jay and likes being a Bronco he will work with the organization to a contract that he feels worthy and works for him. If not, he should go elsewhere as i think Jay can work with most receivers. But i think Brandon likes working with Jay so i dont really see a problem there.

[Lonestar]

you think Jackson's 12 receptions out of 20 times thrown to is the same production as marshalls 104 receptions out of 181 times thrown too?

these stats are complete garbage though, Cutler didnt force nearly as many throws into double coverage to Royal, Stokley, Hillis (hilarious you would bring up a RB who catches hitches and swing routes out of the back field) as he did to Brandon Marshall, I would shake my head some times at the Throws Jay would try to throw into double sometimes even triple coverage to Brandon Marshall that were impossible to catch.... so these stats are clearly misleading.. sorry


do you not understand the simple logic of percentage of passes caught?..

It does not matter if it is 20 or a 120 if the big guys can't handle the rock then he can't last year he was 102-170 60% with no hand damage..2006 20-37 for 54%

If your theory holds true then his percentage in 2006 should be higher.. than it was in 07-08..

IF they were impossible to catch then why is Jay throwing to him and instead of finding an open WR with much higher completion %..

Stop making excuse for the kid they re not defensible. IF you look at it dispassionately..

Nice kid sure but is he worth 50+ million when someone else can get the same or higher % caught for 25-40% of the money..

[EMB6903]

but they were thrown to him for what ever reason he did not catch them if he was over or under thrown or simple defensed they were still thrown at him.. If the other WR/TE/Rb are getting a higher % caught pass the ball around to them and pick up someone that will not break the bank that may have a bad Hand forever..If Jackson caught the same percentage and costs 1/3 as much then sign him long term.. and pass the ball around to those that can either catch the ball or be in position to do so..

BTW IIRC Brandon had the largest number of actual dropped ball in the NFL this year.. was it between the ears or hand?

so you are hating on Marshall BECAUSE of the horrible throws that Cutler forced to him?

my goodness are you reaching now

[Ziggy]

Actually it can be figured out if its nerve damage.

Only if he cooperates with the evaluation.

[Lonestar]

so you are hating on Marshall BECAUSE of the horrible throws that Cutler forced to him?

my goodness are you reaching now


Not hating him just looking at it logically he is good but is not top 5 money just like ashley was not a few years ago.. and we all know what happened to ashley

BTW how many of those passes this year to Marshall were bubble screens if you want to take those out of the mix his actually reception numbers and % will drop like a rock..

Much the way you laugh at the screens thrown to Hillis..

The guy could be a stud WR right now he has big numbers because Jay forced a lot of passes to him when he could have thrown them to open receivers FOR WHAT EVER reason..

Now if he is a cousin or a good Friend you can admit it.. but beyond that sounds like a bad case of man love to me..

[TXBRONC]

Only if he cooperates with the evaluation.

I don't know if I would or wouldn't, all I know is if my livelihood depended on it I would cooperate.

[broncohead]

Not hating him just looking at it logically he is good but is not top 5 money just like ashley was not a few years ago.. and we all know what happened to ashley

BTW how many of those passes this year to Marshall were bubble screens if you want to take those out of the mix his actually reception numbers and % will drop like a rock..

Much the way you laugh at the screens thrown to Hillis..

The guy could be a stud WR right now he has big numbers because Jay forced a lot of passes to him when he could have thrown them to open receivers FOR WHAT EVER reason..

Now if he is a cousin or a good Friend you can admit it.. but beyond that sounds like a bad case of man love to me..

He may not have as many yards or receptions but he wouldn't have a low reception percentage. And "FOR WHATEVER REASON" Jay threw to him because he over relies on Marshall to make the big play. Also your last comment changing the subject and attacking another person is a classic sign of ignorance. Now if you want to talk football talk football otherwise there are other forums and threads.

[topscribe]

Not hating him just looking at it logically he is good but is not top 5 money just like ashley was not a few years ago.. and we all know what happened to ashley

BTW how many of those passes this year to Marshall were bubble screens if you want to take those out of the mix his actually reception numbers and % will drop like a rock..

Much the way you laugh at the screens thrown to Hillis..

The guy could be a stud WR right now he has big numbers because Jay forced a lot of passes to him when he could have thrown them to open receivers FOR WHAT EVER reason..

Now if he is a cousin or a good Friend you can admit it.. but beyond that sounds like a bad case of man love to me..

JR, they would not throw bubble screens if BMarsh were not good after the
catch. That's like saying you have to take the TD passes away from the QB
that were wide open, or yardage from a RB where there are good holes.
Every receiver has receptions anybody could catch, but you still give it to them.

-----

[Lonestar]

JR, they would not throw bubble screens if BMarsh were not good after the
catch. That's like saying you have to take the TD passes away from the QB
that were wide open, or yardage from a RB where there are good holes.
Every receiver has receptions anybody could catch, but you still give it to them.

-----

not saying they do not but the comment was made to his commnets of Hillis just getting screen passes.. and for that reason only..

Hillis got some screen passes and he also got some sideline ones that he made huge catches or good YAC down the sidelines..

I was trying to get him to see that all of Marshall's passes were not all 30+ yards down field..

No other reason whatsoever..

[EMB6903]

Not hating him just looking at it logically he is good but is not top 5 money just like ashley was not a few years ago.. and we all know what happened to ashley

BTW how many of those passes this year to Marshall were bubble screens if you want to take those out of the mix his actually reception numbers and % will drop like a rock..

Much the way you laugh at the screens thrown to Hillis..

The guy could be a stud WR right now he has big numbers because Jay forced a lot of passes to him when he could have thrown them to open receivers FOR WHAT EVER reason..

Now if he is a cousin or a good Friend you can admit it.. but beyond that sounds like a bad case of man love to me..

can you tell me what WR under 25 that you would rather have over Brandon marshall? I'd Say Calvin Johnson, and you could make a case for Dwyane Bowe and Eddie Royal... other then that hes the best.
Marshall is worth top 5 money and he is going to get it from Denver whether you like it or not, hes arguably a top 5 wr in the NFL whether you think so or not, and hes definately one of the most consistent WR's in the NFL (only 4 games under 50 yards recieving in the last 31 games hes played in) you saying he "could be great" is crazy.. Brandon Marshall is already great the numbers this guy has in just 3 years (2 as a starter) is insane.

and Marshall is 10x more talented then Ashley Lelie please dont compare the two.

[Lonestar]

can you tell me what WR under 25 that you would rather have over Brandon marshall? I'd Say Calvin Johnson, and you could make a case for Dwyane Bowe and Eddie Royal... other then that hes the best.
Marshall is worth top 5 money and he is going to get it from Denver whether you like it or not, hes arguably a top 5 wr in the NFL whether you think so or not, and hes definately one of the most consistent WR's in the NFL (only 4 games under 50 yards recieving in the last 31 games hes played in) you saying he "could be great" is crazy.. Brandon Marshall is already great the numbers this guy has in just 3 years (2 as a starter) is insane.

and Marshall is 10x more talented then Ashley Lelie please dont compare the two.


Since you say so and you obviously have more at stake here than I do.

If you wish to believe it, it is OK with me..

Just because of few of us look at it from a purely business and production sense and not emotional one do not proclaim/commend us as haters..

BTW I'll bet that the new coaching staff will see it like I and few others do when it is time for a new contract.. Other options will be looked at before blowing the bank on someone that may have a damaged hand..

Sleep well tonight thinking of Brandon..

[topscribe]

not saying they do not but the comment was made to his commnets of Hillis just getting screen passes.. and for that reason only..

Hillis got some screen passes and he also got some sideline ones that he made huge catches or good YAC down the sidelines..

I was trying to get him to see that all of Marshall's passes were not all 30+ yards down field..

No other reason whatsoever..

The pass when Hillis was hurt was one not all WRs would make.

So you have a good point.

-----

[EMB6903]

Since you say so and you obviously have more at stake here than I do.

If you wish to believe it, it is OK with me..

Just because of few of us look at it from a purely business and production sense and not emotional one do not proclaim/commend us as haters..

BTW I'll bet that the new coaching staff will see it like I and few others do when it is time for a new contract.. Other options will be looked at before blowing the bank on someone that may have a damaged hand..

Sleep well tonight thinking of Brandon..

production??? there isnt 7 WR's in the league that have shown more "production" and constistency then Brandon Marshall the last 2 years

and other options, what other options? tell me what options are better then re signing a great young WR with great size and potential?

THANK GOODNESS YOU ARENT RUNNING THINGS!

[EMB6903]

The pass when Hillis was hurt was one not all WRs would make.

So you have a good point.

-----
that was off a swing pass coming out of the back field, exactly what I had said before

[Lonestar]

The pass when Hillis was hurt was one not all WRs would make.
So you have a good point.

-----


did you mean would have made? or Caught

there was one other one up the right sideline were he tip toed down the sideline for an extra 10-15 yards that many WR would not have been able to do certainly not something expected from a 250 pound bruiser.. Looked more like a ballerina then a FB.

[topscribe]

did you mean would have made? or Caught

there was one other one up the right sideline were he tip toed down the sideline for an extra 10-15 yards that many WR would not have been able to do certainly not something expected from a 250 pound bruiser.. Looked more like a ballerina then a FB.

Ballerina?

I've seen some ballerinas that kind of turned me on, but he never did . . .

-----

[elsid13]

This thread is kinda of joke.

Marshall is 3rd year receiver that potential to be one of the best in game. If you have chance to lock him in now for the long term it a no brainer. Let look at what he does for Denver Offense. Force Defense Coordinators to alter thier game plans to roll coverage to his side of the field, thus allowing the other WRs/TEs more one on one opportunities. He a beast blocking down field for his running backs and he is threat to take to the end zone any time he get the ball in his hands.

Yes had more drops this year then last - some of that was for his hand (which he admitted to in RMN article was still bothering him, but where he also stated that feeling was coming back and he should be fully recovered according to the medical staff next season) and some of it was from his hip that was causing him problem coming out of his breaks and letting the ball get on him before he was set. But he also had 102 catches in 15 games and left it on the field every time he was out there.

[Lonestar]

production??? there isnt 7 WR's in the league that have shown more "production" and constistency then Brandon Marshall the last 2 years

and other options, what other options? tell me what options are better then re signing a great young WR with great size and potential?

THANK GOODNESS YOU ARENT RUNNING THINGS!


And thank goodness your not in charge either

lets see in those all important things I look for ..in your NUMBER 1 WR and STUD..
first downs caught.. 98th

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&seasonType=REG&statisticPositionCategory=WIDE_RECEIVER&d-447263-o=2&conference=null&d-447263-s=RECEIVING_FIRST_DOWN_PERCENT&experience=null&d-447263-n=1&season=2008&Submit=Go&qualified=true&tabSeq=1&d-447263-p=2

40+ plus yards.. tied 49th BTW Eddie was 30th

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&seasonType=REG&statisticPositionCategory=WIDE_RECEIVER&d-447263-o=2&conference=null&d-447263-s=RECEIVING_40PLUS_YARDS_EACH&experience=null&d-447263-n=1&season=2008&Submit=Go&qualified=true&tabSeq=1&d-447263-p=2

Plus 20 yarders tied for 8th Eddie 40th..

TD's 18th Eddie 23rd

fumbles.. 1st.. Eddie 14th

Dropped passes..#2

http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=NFL&type=Receiving&rank=232


Yep IMHO he is worth top 5 money who else agrees. I for one will allow the FO/GM/HC decide on this one.. and really trust their judgment like I have not for at least 5 years..


hope that made it clearer

[Lonestar]

Ballerina?

I've seen some ballerinas that kind of turned me on, but he never did . . .

-----

98.9% of them are WAY to skinny to excite me at all..

but he has moves I have not seen in a big man before.. something I could see in a skinny little WR..

By the way I do not regard any pass thrown to a RB that is beyond the LOS a screen per se it is a PASS to a RB.. Especially when there are NO OLINE blockers out there to help him.. The pass he was injured on was at the left sideline IIRC and 5-6 yards down field to pick up the first down and therefore NOT and screen pass..

[turftoad]

98.9% of them are WAY to skinny to excite me at all..

but he has moves I have not seen in a big man before.. something I could see in a skinny little WR..

By the way I do not regard any pass thrown to a RB that is beyond the LOS a screen per se it is a PASS to a RB.. Especially when there are NO OLINE blockers out there to help him.. The pass he was injured on was at the left sideline IIRC and 5-6 yards down field to pick up the first down and therefore NOT and screen pass..

JR, weren't you the one talking about MAN LOVE? :D

[Lonestar]

JR, weren't you the one talking about MAN LOVE? :D


got me on that one..

but I'm not crying for top 5 RB money either and not going to pull a hara kiri (seppuku) if he gets cut or traded.

[turftoad]

got me on that one..

but I'm not crying for top 5 RB money either and not going to pull a hara kiri (seppuku) if he gets cut or traded.

I don't think he deserves top 5 either. Probably top 10 for sure. If we don't do it, someone else will.
He is damn good.

[TXBRONC]

I think the odds are in his favor that he's only going to get better.

[EMB6903]

And thank goodness your not in charge either

lets see in those all important things I look for ..in your NUMBER 1 WR and STUD..
first downs caught.. 98th

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&seasonType=REG&statisticPositionCategory=WIDE_RECEIVER&d-447263-o=2&conference=null&d-447263-s=RECEIVING_FIRST_DOWN_PERCENT&experience=null&d-447263-n=1&season=2008&Submit=Go&qualified=true&tabSeq=1&d-447263-p=2

40+ plus yards.. tied 49th BTW Eddie was 30th

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&seasonType=REG&statisticPositionCategory=WIDE_RECEIVER&d-447263-o=2&conference=null&d-447263-s=RECEIVING_40PLUS_YARDS_EACH&experience=null&d-447263-n=1&season=2008&Submit=Go&qualified=true&tabSeq=1&d-447263-p=2

Plus 20 yarders tied for 8th Eddie 40th..

TD's 18th Eddie 23rd

fumbles.. 1st.. Eddie 14th

Dropped passes..#2

http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=NFL&type=Receiving&rank=232


Yep IMHO he is worth top 5 money who else agrees. I for one will allow the FO/GM/HC decide on this one.. and really trust their judgment like I have not for at least 5 years..


hope that made it clearer


you keep showing me these meaningless and misleading stats denver played in a west coast offense what dont you understand about that?... and the redzone offense had a big thing to do with play calling, as many times Marshall was thrown to he didnt get that many looks in the redzone


Im not gonna make excuses for Marshall in the dropped balls catagory, he clearly needs to get better on that but it can be easily fixed, you cant teach the talent Marshall has, not to mention hes 6'4 230... that will be the reason Denver will not get rid of him no owner/Front office is stupid enough to let go of a player of Marshalls caliber so its safe to say he will remain in Denver for a long time unless he has another run in with the law.

[EMB6903]

98.9% of them are WAY to skinny to excite me at all..

but he has moves I have not seen in a big man before.. something I could see in a skinny little WR..

By the way I do not regard any pass thrown to a RB that is beyond the LOS a screen per se it is a PASS to a RB.. Especially when there are NO OLINE blockers out there to help him.. The pass he was injured on was at the left sideline IIRC and 5-6 yards down field to pick up the first down and therefore NOT and screen pass..


nobody said it was a screen pass, what are you talking about? and a screen is an actual play.... and just to inform you Hillis rarely recieved any HB screens this year, maybe 2-3 of his receptions came off of screens, keep up bro

[Lonestar]

that was off a swing pass coming out of the back field, exactly what I had said before

Yes I mistook your comment for a swing pass as a screen.. but we all know that being down field 4-10 yards calling it a swing pass might be a stretch.. Think that is refered to as running a sideline route..


you keep showing me these meaningless and misleading stats denver played in a west coast offense what dont you understand about that?... and the redzone offense had a big thing to do with play calling, as many times Marshall was thrown to he didnt get that many looks in the redzone

Im not gonna make excuses for Marshall in the dropped balls catagory, he clearly needs to get better on that but it can be easily fixed, you cant teach the talent Marshall has, not to mention hes 6'4 230... that will be the reason Denver will not get rid of him no owner/Front office is stupid enough to let go of a player of Marshalls caliber so its safe to say he will remain in Denver for a long time unless he has another run in with the law.

Meaningless stats perhaps to you, bu these are things coaches evaluate.. Your obviously obsessed with Brandon so it is also obvious we will have to agree to disagree on whether he is worth top 5 money..

Alot like poorti$$$$ who thought we should pay him to be the top dog Running back or when Ashely had delusions of grandeur also.. they both wound up elsewhere..

Brandon is a physical specimen there is no doubt in anyones mind but other than 104 passes and total yards he is now where close to being a top 5 or in your mind 6-7 leader in the NFL.. And we have yet to address if he is damaged goods..

He will get a big raise over the 2.2 he made this year.. But IMO he is not worth much more than that as long as he is a less than a 60% WR..

BTW mikeys offense over that past few years is about as far from the WCO as one can get and still see shades of Bill Walsh peeking out..

[EMB6903]

Yes I mistook your comment for a swing pass as a screen.. but we all know that being down field 4-10 yards calling it a swing pass might be a stretch.. Think that is refered to as running a sideline route..


Meaningless stats perhaps to you, bu these are things coaches evaluate.. Your obviously obsessed with Brandon so it is also obvious we will have to agree to disagree on whether he is worth top 5 money..

Alot like poorti$$$$ who thought we should pay him to be the top dog Running back or when Ashely had delusions of grandeur also.. they both wound up elsewhere..

Brandon is a physical specimen there is no doubt in anyones mind but other than 104 passes and total yards he is now where close to being a top 5 or in your mind 6-7 leader in the NFL.. And we have yet to address if he is damaged goods..

He will get a big raise over the 2.2 he made this year.. But IMO he is not worth much more than that as long as he is a less than a 60% WR..

BTW mikeys offense over that past few years is about as far from the WCO as one can get and still see shades of Bill Walsh peeking out..

no actually I was 100% right when I referred to it as a swing route, only a girl who doesnt know what the route is called would say "running a side line route" im still laughing at that one

and saying Shannys offense has been far from the WCO THE LAST FEW YEARS?????????????????????? WHAT??????????????? please explain this ignorant comment.... Thanks!

[drewloc]

I think that the % caught stat is not an end all be all, but that said it is a help. let's look at a couple.

T.J. Houshmandzadeh - 67.2
Larry Fitzgerald - 62.3
Reggie Wayne - 63.1
Steve Smith - 60.5
Brandon Marshall - 57.5
Chad Johnson - 54.6
Terrell Owens - 49.3
Randy Moss - 55.2

Now I'm not saying that Marshall is a top 5 reciever, could he be? Absolutely. Will he? No one knows for sure, but he is definitely in the top 10-15 receivers in the league. We can compare stats all we want, but one thing to keep in mind is he is young. Luckily we have the benefit of watching Marshall in the upcoming year to see if there is an improvement. If he improves on these things, I would be ok with top 5 money.

Also something to think about, our beloved Rod Smith had 70 catches and was thrown to 131 times in his 3rd year.

[CoachChaz]

I think that the % caught stat is not an end all be all, but that said it is a help. let's look at a couple.

T.J. Houshmandzadeh - 67.2
Larry Fitzgerald - 62.3
Reggie Wayne - 63.1
Steve Smith - 60.5
Brandon Marshall - 57.5
Chad Johnson - 54.6
Terrell Owens - 49.3
Randy Moss - 55.2

Now I'm not saying that Marshall is a top 5 reciever, could he be? Absolutely. Will he? No one knows for sure, but he is definitely in the top 10-15 receivers in the league. We can compare stats all we want, but one thing to keep in mind is he is young. Luckily we have the benefit of watching Marshall in the upcoming year to see if there is an improvement. If he improves on these things, I would be ok with top 5 money.

Also something to think about, our beloved Rod Smith had 70 catches and was thrown to 131 times in his 3rd year.

Bravo. I think this sums it up best. NO ONE here will say that Brandon doesnt deserve top 5 money...if he truly is top 5 talent. If he stays on this pace, I'd definately give him a nice contract, but not a top 5 contract until he proves he belongs there.

Brandon is a stud and appears to be on a path to great things. But until opposing defenses fear him on the level of TO, Fitz, Smith, A.Johnson, etc...he's not top5.

I hope he gets there and I think he can...but we'll see. I'm just not going to fork over that money until he gets there.

[atwater27]

I'll be the one to say NO. I think you have to create a limit on what you are willing to spend on a WR. Yes, there are the games where he has 18 catches, but aside from a bad call...we still lose that one.

Unless a WR is able to completely change and alter a game, he will never be worth what some other players are. Take a look at how many 100 yard games even the best WR averages a season. take a look at what % of his receptions result in 1st downs or TD's. Look at how many balls are dropped. You have to factor in ALOT of things to determine the value of a WR.

Yes, the kid has talent and if he were to reach a level where he was unstoppable and could control a game with his presence, then he'd be worth the money. Until then...100 receptions is simply a number. Many recievers have achieved it and very few of them were top 5 in the NFL. When your QB throws 600 passes, someone is likely to catch 100 of them.

This year he had 104 catches. 22 were on 3rd down and 6 were for TD's. What significant value did the team get out of the other 76 receptions that makes him worthy of being considered a top 5 player?

What he said. Drops too many passes. How hard is that to understand?
Also, if he is unhappy down the road I have no doubt he will be a Owens/Chad Johnson/Randy Moss style cancer and He also has the potential for Suspension for off field stuff.

It would send the wrong message for a young football team trying to get the right winning attitude to reward an underachiever with major character flaws with huge money.

[LRtagger]

I think you give him a top 10 contract with enough performance based incentives to make it top 5 money if he plays well. If we can agree to those terms, then I think its the best scenario for both him and the team. Although I dont think it will happen like that...I think we end up paying him top 5 money. I'm torn on it, but we have made far worse personnel decisions in the past, so even if we had to spend a lot to keep him here I wouldnt dwell on it. He's a great player and I know he will keep contributing. Even if we end up overpaying him in hindsight, I bet it will still be a better scenario than the way we overpayed Niko and Boss.

[omac]

What he said. Drops too many passes. How hard is that to understand?
Also, if he is unhappy down the road I have no doubt he will be a Owens/Chad Johnson/Randy Moss style cancer and He also has the potential for Suspension for off field stuff.

It would send the wrong message for a young football team trying to get the right winning attitude to reward an underachiever with major character flaws with huge money.

Underachiever? He works early and hard in the offseason with Jay and Tony; his work ethic has never been in question. On the major character flaws ... when has that emerged again? He's gotten away from the girl who he acts nuts around, and seems to be marrying a girl who might be really good for him. He also works a lot with kids, and his teammates and everyone say he's a joy to be around.

Let's wait for the next outburst before we put him in the TO boat. He's been a pretty model citizen since promising to leave those things behind.

[Bad Intentions]

Within a year or two, the Broncos are going to have some tough decisions to make regarding personnel. Kepping Brandon Marshall, trading him, or letting him go is going to be one of them. Marshall had 104 catches for 1265 yards and 6 TD's this season. He was tied for 13th in the NFL this season in YAC. He was selected to start in the Pro Bowl in just his 3rd season. Impressive, right? Let's look a little deeper.

Brandon was the targeted receiver 181 times this season, most in the NFL. Despite being targeted 181 times and having 104 catches, he was tied for 18th in big catches(catches over 20 yards) with only 8. He was not in the top 40 in yards per catch. He was 2nd in the NFL with balls not caught at 77. That tells us that Brandon caught 57% of the balls that he was targeted for. Just to compare, on the other side of the field, Eddie Royal caught 70.5% of the balls that he was targeted for.

Brandon had 12 dropped passes in 15 games, 3rd highest total in the NFL. Were the drops a result of mental mistakes, or were they the result of an underlying physical problem such as nerve damage in his hand? At this point, I don't think that anyone can say for sure other than possibly Brandon. Let's add in the fact that if Brandon has another off-field incident, he's looking at a possible long term suspension from the league.

Brandon is a dynamic young receiver with great size and strength, but is he worth making one of the top 5 paid receivers in the NFL? That's probably what it's going to take to keep him.

I'll leave it for you to debate BroncosForums.

edit: I have made the poll public. Your vote will be seen by others.


You obviously are trying to putting a negative slant on Brandon Marshall's performance otherwise you mention the fact that defense doubled him and played bracket coverage over him in the last 14 games of the season. He still went on to catch 86 more balls. You failed to mention that he was playing at half speed sometimes due to a severely strained hip flexor. He played through the pain and was accountable for his play. Rarely did you hear Brandon Marshall talk of injuries, pre-existing or otherwise as the reason he didn't make plays. He had some big plays called back on phantom PI calls as well. Remember the long TD he had vs the Dolphins? I've seen Randy Moss, Larry Fitzgerald, and Terrell Owens mug people compared to what Brandon did. There were at least three TD's taken of the board due to PI calls against Brandon, calls that are not the norm in the NFL. Now that he has achieved probowl status those calls should start to even out more.

Now lets talk about how he has matured off the field. I spent a lot of time at Dove Valley last year. The whole incident with Pacman Jones looked like a poor decision but really it was just a series of pranks that had both teams laughing and having fun. Some took it out of context, especially the people that don't like Brandon to begin with. Assuming now, but I'd guess you were one of the folks that thought he went overboard? But how about since that series of "events". He's showed up to lead not only in the community but in the locker room. I asked Eddie Royal in camp what he was learning from the vets. I expected him to talk about Brandon Stokley, he replied that he was learning how to be a pro by watching Brandon Marshall. When the 10 or 11 other receivers in camp were ready to warm up guess who they waited on to come and lead their group!!! Brandon Marshall has earned the respect of his teammates through hard work. By playing through pain. By being accountable for his play. And, by learning from his mistakes and trying to make the best choices for himself and his football team. The things we heard from Brandon during and immediately after/before his suspension were not lip service. They were from the heart and it is evident he intends to deliver on his promises.

Besides all of that, how many receivers out there do you know that would take the blame for a game gone wrong? A poor performance? As untimely as the "Glove Celebration" would have been, would you prefer something of that nature or the Future HOF jacket celebration of Chad "Ocho Cinco" Johnson?

Yeah, I'd say pay the guy and let him go on to be the best WR in Broncos history!

BTW, Brandon Marshall is not a 20 ypc type of receiver. He has the ability to occasionally break the long one b/c he is so difficult to tackle and b/c he has surprising speed and runs good routes. Still, when you throw the ball to him at or within 3-5 yards of the LOS so often, how can you expect him to be amongst the league leaders in YPC? Poor argument, IMO.

[broncosinindy]

I think his hand bugged him alot this year. which i think was a reason for dropping balls. guess well find out if that is truth or just hope. Defiently worth the money. THE BIGGEST THING ABOUT IT IS HE ISNT BITCHING ABOUT RESTRUCTEING EVEN WITH HIS BIG YEARS- he will demand big money and DESERVE it.

[Bad Intentions]

What he said. Drops too many passes. How hard is that to understand?
Also, if he is unhappy down the road I have no doubt he will be a Owens/Chad Johnson/Randy Moss style cancer and He also has the potential for Suspension for off field stuff.

It would send the wrong message for a young football team trying to get the right winning attitude to reward an underachiever with major character flaws with huge money.

Actually, it would be the wrong message with so many young guys that will be coming up on their 2nd contracts as well, if you did not pay the guy. Like I said, Brandon is one of the team leaders now. People look to him, Jay Cutler and Daniel Graham on offense for leadership.

The best thing the Broncos can do is pay him and put some protection in his contract. Brandon isn't stupid. He understands what he's done in the past will cost him as it did with the one game suspension.

6 years $42m with $15 guaranteed up front in bonuses and $5m in incentives over the life of the contract. $500k for leading the league in receptions, $500k for probowl selection, $500k for scoring 12 TDs, that sort of thing. Contract's final years can be voided if Brandon violates the league's personal conduct policy. There are all kind of provisions the Broncos can put in his contract... and they will!

I personally hope they lock him up long term. Can't wait to get that #15 jersey!!!

[Bad Intentions]

You obviously are trying to putting a negative slant on Brandon Marshall's performance otherwise you mention the fact that defense doubled him and played bracket coverage over him in the last 14 games of the season. He still went on to catch 86 more balls. You failed to mention that he was playing at half speed sometimes due to a severely strained hip flexor. He played through the pain and was accountable for his play. Rarely did you hear Brandon Marshall talk of injuries, pre-existing or otherwise as the reason he didn't make plays. He had some big plays called back on phantom PI calls as well. Remember the long TD he had vs the Dolphins? I've seen Randy Moss, Larry Fitzgerald, and Terrell Owens mug people compared to what Brandon did. There were at least three TD's taken of the board due to PI calls against Brandon, calls that are not the norm in the NFL. Now that he has achieved probowl status those calls should start to even out more.

Now lets talk about how he has matured off the field. I spent a lot of time at Dove Valley last year. The whole incident with Pacman Jones looked like a poor decision but really it was just a series of pranks that had both teams laughing and having fun. Some took it out of context, especially the people that don't like Brandon to begin with. Assuming now, but I'd guess you were one of the folks that thought he went overboard? But how about since that series of "events". He's showed up to lead not only in the community but in the locker room. I asked Eddie Royal in camp what he was learning from the vets. I expected him to talk about Brandon Stokley, he replied that he was learning how to be a pro by watching Brandon Marshall. When the 10 or 11 other receivers in camp were ready to warm up guess who they waited on to come and lead their group!!! Brandon Marshall has earned the respect of his teammates through hard work. By playing through pain. By being accountable for his play. And, by learning from his mistakes and trying to make the best choices for himself and his football team. The things we heard from Brandon during and immediately after/before his suspension were not lip service. They were from the heart and it is evident he intends to deliver on his promises.

Besides all of that, how many receivers out there do you know that would take the blame for a game gone wrong? A poor performance? As untimely as the "Glove Celebration" would have been, would you prefer something of that nature or the Future HOF jacket celebration of Chad "Ocho Cinco" Johnson?

Yeah, I'd say pay the guy and let him go on to be the best WR in Broncos history!

BTW, Brandon Marshall is not a 20 ypc type of receiver. He has the ability to occasionally break the long one b/c he is so difficult to tackle and b/c he has surprising speed and runs good routes. Still, when you throw the ball to him at or within 3-5 yards of the LOS so often, how can you expect him to be amongst the league leaders in YPC? Poor argument, IMO.


btw, this wasn't meant as an attack on anyone. I'm only stating my opinion.

[Lonestar]

Bravo. I think this sums it up best. NO ONE here will say that Brandon doesnt deserve top 5 money...if he truly is top 5 talent. If he stays on this pace, I'd definately give him a nice contract, but not a top 5 contract until he proves he belongs there.

Brandon is a stud and appears to be on a path to great things. But until opposing defenses fear him on the level of TO, Fitz, Smith, A.Johnson, etc...he's not top5.

I hope he gets there and I think he can...but we'll see. I'm just not going to fork over that money until he gets there.


What he said. Drops too many passes. How hard is that to understand?
Also, if he is unhappy down the road I have no doubt he will be a Owens/Chad Johnson/Randy Moss style cancer and He also has the potential for Suspension for off field stuff.

It would send the wrong message for a young football team trying to get the right winning attitude to reward an underachiever with major character flaws with huge money.


The real issue is if he drops passes because he has a hand issue that is one thing if it is between the ears it is another thing..

I suspect both of those issues will be discussed by the coaches in the very near future, with decisions made based on their thoughts.. I will trust the FO and coaches to make those decisions as they are best to make them..

It will also be discussed ad nauseam on every forum by fans that think, because he is big and strong he can do no wrong and others like our selves that believe overall performance is the reason for top rewards....

Time will tell..

[Cugel]

when you have a talent like Brandon Marshall you dont let him go, in just 3 years hes went from a 4th rounder who nobody outside of Denver knew to a starting Pro bowl reciever, and to think he hasnt reached his full potential yet. Hes going to get paid, as he deserves to be.

That's pretty much the bottom line. :coffee:

There's no reason now that Denver has a REAL GM instead of just Shanny that contract negotiations can't take place over the course of the pre-season and even during the season.

When Bertrand Berry and Reggie Hayward entered their last seasons they tried to negotiate new contracts. That's a great for both sides:

1. The player gets security. IF they are injured during that season or just have an off-year entering FA their value would plummet.

2. The team gets to sign the player to a MUCH lower contract than if the Player became a FA.

Because Shanahan was too busy during the season, they didn't get it done. Then the Broncos said "we'll take a look and see what the FA market does." Then they were stunned to see other teams swoop in and grab both players for FAR more money than they were willing to pay!

Same thing would happen with Brandon Marshall. He'd be the top offensive FA out there any year and would get just insane money if he ever hit FA.

Goodman & McDaniels will do things the way the Patriots do. The Pats identify a few key players on offense and defense and pay whatever it takes to keep them:

Offense: Brady, C Ted Koppen, Randy Moss, Wes Welker
Defense: Richard Seymour, Vince Wilfork, Adelius Thomas.

The rest of their guys can and often do walk when their contracts expire (Asante Samuel).

It would be monumentally stupid to let your best offensive player walk at this point.

Bluntly, I don't care if he drops the ball too much. He can work on that. He has tremendous size, speed, moves and most of all strength to break tackles.

The Broncos have ZERO choice. They aren't so deep in talent they can let a top talent walk and HOPE they can find someone equally good to replace him.

And you can't just say "You don't deserve top 10 WR money, or even more!"

Because some other team WILL pay him that much in FA and then the Broncos will be SORRY! Hell, if Javon Walker got a $55 million contract, with $18 million guaranteed, can you imagine how much Marshall would get? :tsk:

[Ziggy]

Bluntly, I don't care if he drops the ball too much. He can work on that. He has tremendous size, speed, moves and most of all strength to break tackles.

:

Not if it's because of permanent nerve damage in the hand.

[Northman]

Not if it's because of permanent nerve damage in the hand.

I dont think its permanent or so im told. I remember a guy on the Mane last year who is a surgeon saying that he wouldnt of been surprised if Brandon struggled going into last season. He said the effects from ripping tendons like that could have a lasting effect until he re-strengthened them. I would venture to say that if Brandon wasnt 100% in recovering from the damage this past year and still was able to put up those kind of numbers than think what he could do when totally healthy. Obviously, this guy wasnt his doctor but he was quite familiar with the type of injury so take that for what is worth.

[topscribe]

Not if it's because of permanent nerve damage in the hand.

Sure, he can. Yes, BMarsh dropped some balls. But he still performed obviously
at a Pro Bowl level, and his injury isn't going to get any worse. With his work
ethic, therefore, neither will his performance. Nerve damage or not, I expect
him to get better.

-----

[Lonestar]

I dont think its permanent or so im told. I remember a guy on the Mane last year who is a surgeon saying that he wouldnt of been surprised if Brandon struggled going into last season. He said the effects from ripping tendons like that could have a lasting effect until he re-strengthened them. I would venture to say that if Brandon wasnt 100% in recovering from the damage this past year and still was able to put up those kind of numbers than think what he could do when totally healthy. Obviously, this guy wasnt his doctor but he was quite familiar with the type of injury so take that for what is worth.

When he talked about it it was more of a I do not have feeling in the right hand not that it is not strong..

Remember it was Nerves that got cut also.. sometimes they regenerate some times they do not..

I had Back surgery in 1999 I got the feeling back in my lower extremes Except for my big toe and the ball and top of my left foot.. All the other sensations came back over about 18 months.. I still have a number "asleep" sensation in that part of the foot with occasion stabbing shooting sensations from time to time.. SO Know the nerve it trying to be there but not quite there yet..

My son cut his hand in the web between the thumb and fore finger.. They restored all of it during micro surgery except for the thumb..

If he does not regain that feeling in his hand it will diminish his ability to be that TO, Randy Moss, Fitzgerald type WR.. we all think he can be..

Can he compensate sure much like Watts did but will that be enough down the road ???.. and should he get top 5 money? Hopefully the Broncos now that mikey is no longer handling potential FUBARs like this, will make him an offer before TC and wrap him up for the next 5 years and still not break the bank..

[topscribe]

When he talked about it it was more of a I do not have feeling in the right hand not that it is not strong..

Remember it was Nerves that got cut also.. sometimes they regenerate some times they do not..

I had Back surgery in 1999 I got the feeling back in my lower extremes Except for my big toe and the ball and top of my left foot.. All the other sensations came back over about 18 months.. I still have a number "asleep" sensation in that part of the foot with occasion stabbing shooting sensations from time to time.. SO Know the nerve it trying to be there but not quite there yet..

My son cut his hand in the web between the thumb and fore finger.. They restored all of it during micro surgery except for the thumb..

If he does not regain that feeling in his hand it will diminish his ability to be that TO, Randy Moss, Fitzgerald type WR.. we all think he can be..

Can he compensate sure much like Watts did but will that be enough down the road ???.. and should he get top 5 money? Hopefully the Broncos now that mikey is no longer handling potential FUBARs like this, will make him an offer before TC and wrap him up for the next 5 years and still not break the bank..

I expected the comparison to Watts to surface sooner or later. http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/wink-2.gif

Of course, Watts' problem was so severe and chronic that he was cut from the squad.

Marshall made the Pro Bowl.

So the Broncos can pay him or somebody else will . . .

-----

[Northman]

It would be such a shot to the nuts if we dont at least try and retain him at a reasonable price. If he wants the farm, let him go. But if getting into penny pinching and he burns us being in SD i would be pissed.

[TXBRONC]

I expected the comparison to Watts to surface sooner or later. http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/wink-2.gif

Of course, Watts' problem was so severe and chronic that he was cut from the squad.

Marshall made the Pro Bowl.

So the Broncos can pay him or somebody else will . . .

-----

The Watts comparison isn't a very good one in my opinion. From what I understand Watts' injuried hand was more or less immoble. I haven't heard any such thing about Marshall having the same problem.

[fcspikeit]

The Watts comparison isn't a very good one in my opinion. From what I understand Watts' injuried hand was more or less immoble. I haven't heard any such thing about Marshall having the same problem.

I don't think Jr was comparing the severity of the two injuries.. Just that some effort would have to be made to compensate in the same order as Watts..

Here's the thing, what if it doesn't get any better? If he is only ever as good as he was last year, is that really so bad? Either way, his play this last year warrants a pay increase. Top 5 money? Maybe not but as some has already said, someone will pay him that. That is unless we can get him locked up before he hits FA... If we can get him to agree to a top 10 deal, IMO we should jump on it! If the doctors feel his hand could diminish his play over time, they should put previsions in the contract..

Look at Boldin, he received a new contract a couple years ago and he is now crying because he wants more.. If Marshall was doing that, I would have a lot less respect for him.. Beings he is playing like a 1st round pick and getting paid like a 4th rounder and still not complaining, he should be reworded for that. If he isn't reworded, it can be seen, the only way a WR can get respect is if he does exactly what Boldin is now doing.

[rcsodak]

He's about to get married and only gonna mature even more as he reaches his mid-20's. Automobile insurance rates don't start to go lower for a young male driver with good driving records til about 26 years old as that is when the experts think a man reaches his mental maturity. If you think dropped balls will become less of a problem, then so will his off field issues.

I believe most his off field issues were over a long time problematic on-off relationship with some girl. I don't know if it's the same girl he's proposed too but since there's a ring involved now, the relationships problems should subside.

I think he's worth the big contract.

We will know for sure after next year, his contract year, that is unless he chooses to sit out for a new deal now, which I don't think he'll do.

.

:laugh:

Sorry, but now we're letting auto insurance rates determine a player's worth?

:laugh:

How old is TO?
How old is PacMan?
How old is Plaxico?

Undeniably hillarious. :rolleyes:

[Lonestar]

I don't think Jr was comparing the severity of the two injuries.. Just that some effort would have to be made to compensate in the same order as Watts..

Here's the thing, what if it doesn't get any better? If he is only ever as good as he was last year, is that really so bad? Either way, his play this last year warrants a pay increase. Top 5 money? Maybe not but as some has already said, someone will pay him that. That is unless we can get him locked up before he hits FA... If we can get him to agree to a top 10 deal, IMO we should jump on it! If the doctors feel his hand could diminish his play over time, they should put previsions in the contract..

Look at Boldin, he received a new contract a couple years ago and he is now crying because he wants more.. If Marshall was doing that, I would have a lot less respect for him.. Beings he is playing like a 1st round pick and getting paid like a 4th rounder and still not complaining, he should be reworded for that. If he isn't reworded, it can be seen, the only way a WR can get respect is if he does exactly what Boldin is now doing.



good analogy.. Not sure how many folks have ever tried walking on a foot that is asleep, while you can do it lots of folks have fell down trying..

If you do not have feeling in the hand and your trying to make a catch you have to look the ball into your hands and try to grab it with BOTH at the same time.. if you have no feeling there ia Strong chance the motor skills with the hand are diminished also.. I know my son was a really good artist and can no longer draw because he has little control with his thumb.. Not that he does not see it but has control issues..

Watts did fine until someone told the world he could not catch with that hand and when they took away his other hand by overplaying it he was finished in the NFL..

Now would that apply to Brandon? hey I do not know... If they do even to a small extent then he is not worth top 5 money.. a real healthy raise with incentive escalators in it would work for me..

[rcsodak]

...while 5 other teams line up to pay him whtever he wants w/o all the stipulations. Growing up or not, he's a diva. He'll want top dollar. And more power to him if he can get it.

Not saying you're wrong, but where are comments of him saying he wants "top dollar"?

I think he's more of the player that is thankful for being drafted by Denver....and wants to stay with them, as payback for taking a chance on him.

I'm not saying he'd take a pittance for a salary, but if it comes down staying and playing or sitting and getting traded to a shit-team, I think he'd stay.

I have to think that Rod has probably rubbed off on him, with the little time they were around each other.

Just my opinion.

[rcsodak]

Brandon Marshall has had 2 100+ reception years, and 2 years where he has surpassed 1200+ yards recieving in his first 3 years in the NFL, are we seriously arguing if we should keep him?

What were Steve Smith, and Andre Johnsons numbers their first 3 years in the NFL? not nearly as impressive as Marshalls, hell Moss only has had 2 years over 100+ receptions in his entire career... Marshall already has 2 in his first 3 years... how you gonna hate on the guys YPC knowing that he played in a west coast offense ever since he entered the league? and Im tired of people saying Marshall cannot stretch the field... I cant begin to tell you how many times Marshall had his man beat deep and Jay under threw it(for some one who has a reputation of having a great arm Cutler sure under throws every fade he throws)

:shocked:

OH CRAP!!!!

Run!

[rcsodak]

The problem is, no one can prove that his dropped passes AREN'T a result of lingereing effects from his hand injury. Effects that may never go away.

That's what doctors are for. ;)

[rcsodak]

Only if he cooperates with the evaluation.
Shhhhh...



....hear em'?







(sound of black helicopters)

[rcsodak]

you keep showing me these meaningless and misleading stats denver played in a west coast offense what dont you understand about that?... and the redzone offense had a big thing to do with play calling, as many times Marshall was thrown to he didnt get that many looks in the redzone


Im not gonna make excuses for Marshall in the dropped balls catagory, he clearly needs to get better on that but it can be easily fixed, you cant teach the talent Marshall has, not to mention hes 6'4 230... that will be the reason Denver will not get rid of him no owner/Front office is stupid enough to let go of a player of Marshalls caliber so its safe to say he will remain in Denver for a long time unless he has another run in with the law.

Tell that to 6'4" 210 Randy Moss, who avg'd. 80/1300/12 :coffee:

[Lonestar]

Tell that to 6'4" 210 Randy Moss, who avg'd. 80/1300/12 :coffee:


Twice IIRC.. double trouble..:salute:

[elsid13]

Tell that to 6'4" 210 Randy Moss, who avg'd. 80/1300/12 :coffee:

Moss wasn't trade because of talent. He was traded because he was pain in ass and immature ass to his teammates. Marshall is not even close to having Moss's emotional turmoil.

[rcsodak]

Moss wasn't trade because of talent. He was traded because he was pain in ass and immature ass to his teammates. Marshall is not even close to having Moss's emotional turmoil.

That was the case with the Faiduhs....but not with the Vikings. Arrogance is a virtue, when you can back it up.

His final year with them, 49 receptions, for 13td's!!!!!! That there is Chris Carter territory.... "he only catches td's".

[topscribe]

That was the case with the Faiduhs....but not with the Vikings. Arrogance is a virtue, when you can back it up.

His final year with them, 49 receptions, for 13td's!!!!!! That there is Chris Carter territory.... "he only catches td's".

Confidence is a virtue.

Arrogance is a cancer . . .

-----

[elsid13]

That was the case with the Faiduhs....but not with the Vikings. Arrogance is a virtue, when you can back it up.

His final year with them, 49 receptions, for 13td's!!!!!! That there is Chris Carter territory.... "he only catches td's".

Forget the fact he was throwing Culpeper under the bus, or the running down of the cop that was trying to give him a ticket or the disputes with OC or the water spray of official?

[sneakers]

I'd say so....he opens up the underneith passes by being a deep threat (that opposing teams actually respect).

[eessydo]

My two cents, unless his deal potentially cripples the broncos underneath whatever preliminary new CBA is being tossed around, then sign him. But with the potential for an uncapped year owners will have to choose which side of the fence they are on, Fiscal conservancy or all out cash war.

I think the Broncos will end up choosing fiscal conservancy and loose him to another team ready to sling some cash.

[WARHORSE]

That was the case with the Faiduhs....but not with the Vikings. Arrogance is a virtue, when you can back it up.

His final year with them, 49 receptions, for 13td's!!!!!! That there is Chris Carter territory.... "he only catches td's".


Moss was NOT traded from the Vikes due to talent...........to suggest he was is just plain................well, figure it out.

It will help.:D


Meanwhile, hes still breaking records in Patsland.


They got rid of Moss cause they thought he was undermining Culpoopers leadership...........imagine THAT!

[56crash]

I think the drops will become less of a concern going forward.
The off-field incidents concern me more than his on field performance.


him getting married is going to help that .

[turftoad]

him getting married is going to help that .

It didn't help Micheal Irvin. Just sayin.

[56crash]

I am way more worried about his hip is why I say wait and see sign him next year .


As for his drops not a big deal his surgeon said after the season that Marshals back of his hand was numb still and would get better with time .

[56crash]

It didn't help Micheal Irvin. Just sayin.

how many games did Micheal Irvin miss because off-field incidents ?

[Lonestar]

how many games did Micheal Irvin miss because off-field incidents ?

how many should it have many but that was before the NFL took personal deportment as a serious nature like it is today..

BTW the Dallas Police also kind a had a deal with Jerry Jones should one of there players run into an issue to handle in under that able.. Until the corruption there as brought to light by a local New paper Lots of Dallas's finest got to see alot of cowgirl games for being friendly to the cowgirls..

[broncosinindy]

I just keep coming back to where we think Marshall(not all but alot) think marshall is some kind of cancer. Man, Some of you guys lump him in with TO. and that is just horrible. He has grown up alot this last year. How many times have we heard him in the media bitching about his contract? I dont like obama but what he was trying to do with the glove thing was pretty cool.

I like Marshall and when his contract comes up. i hope Denver has a dump truck full of money on his lawn.

I really think he is starting to become a leader on this team.