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Denver Native (Carol)
02-08-2009, 08:36 AM
http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_11650607

HONOLULU — Compare the physical talents and Jay Cutler is every bit as good as Peyton Manning and Tom Brady. Maybe better.

Arm strength, accuracy, foot speed, athleticism. In these areas, Manning and Brady appear to have nothing on Cutler.

It was presented exactly this way to Manning here after one of the team's Pro Bowl practices last week. He nodded his head in agreement.

"Yeah, but a lot of quarterbacks are physically just as good as him," said Kansas City tight end Tony Gonzalez of Manning. "That's not what makes great players. Great anything in life. It's about how much work and how much extra effort, more than the next guy. How many more hours you're willing to put in, more than the next guy. That's what's made Peyton."

Manning, of the Indianapolis Colts, and New England's Brady are considered the NFL's two best quarterbacks. Cutler, the Broncos' rising talent, ranks somewhere among the large, scrambled gathering in the level below. Work ethic may partially explain the separation. But it's more about where those extra hours lead.

"It's the mental part of the position," Cutler said. "I think with the offense for Tom and Peyton, they've been with the same system for a while. The guys around them all know what's going on."

He mentioned wide receiver Reggie Wayne, and how well he works with Manning.

"They don't even have to say anything," Cutler said. "They've grown up in the same system and they've just become better and better and better. I think that's the key to a good offense, keeping your guys in that system. Peyton and Tom, they've got it mastered."

Since Manning became the No. 1 overall draft pick of the Colts in 1998, he has had one offensive coordinator, Tom Moore. Since Brady became the sixth-round draft choice of the Patriots in 2000, he has had Bill Belichick as his head coach.

Playing those mind games

Over the years, the minds of Manning and Brady have expanded. They audible more than any other quarterbacks. Making their own play calls increases their ability to intuitively read pass coverages, and find the soft spot in a defense.

Rarely is quarterbacking about how the ball is thrown, but where. And to whom. And when.

"A lot of that comes from experience," Manning said. "The thing with Jay, you don't find a lot of first-round quarterbacks who didn't come from a college that didn't have a lot of success. You look at Brady and Michigan. They had a winning program."

Manning came from the University of Tennessee, where he won big.

Cutler took four years of beatings at Vanderbilt, where he led the Commodores beyond their usual victory expectations, but not to a bowl appearance.

"It tells you what a great talent Jay is; usually a quarterback who doesn't play in bowl games isn't getting picked in the first round," Manning said. "He never had a great supporting cast around him. So I think the more he plays in Denver, that mental game is going to happen for him. The experience will come into play for him. You can't find arms like he has, and the ability to run."

The next step for Cutler, though, isn't about talent. Talent got Cutler to the Pro Bowl, in just his second full season as a starter. No small achievement. But as he looks forward, from the Pro Bowl to the Super Bowl, Cutler knows he will have to become more consistent at making better decisions.

He threw for more than 4,500 yards in 2008, third-best in the league. His 25 touchdown passes ranked seventh and he was the most difficult NFL quarterback to sack, once every 56 pass attempts.

But Cutler also ranked a pedestrian 16th in passer rating, largely because he threw more interceptions than anyone except Brett Favre.

"We all start out raw, regardless of who you are," said Kerry Collins, the veteran Tennessee Titans quarterback who wasn't honored with his second Pro Bowl until his 14th season. "But he's a smart guy. Already the mental part of it, you can tell he's smart enough to where he gets it. And he'll keep on getting better and better."

Freedom in the future?

New Broncos coach Josh McDaniels should be able to help. In Cutler's first two seasons, he was largely dependent on coach Mike Shanahan and offensive coordinator Mike Heimerdinger to think for him. In Cutler's third season, he became comfortable enough to call audibles and pick from two or three options at the line.

Expanded responsibility with the mental aspect of playing quarterback was a big reason Cutler was initially frustrated by Shana-han's firing. Upon reflection, Cutler understands McDaniels can help enhance his mental development.

In three previous seasons, McDaniels served as the Patriots' offensive coordinator and play caller. Anyone who has watched Brady bark out pass protections and audibles at the line of scrimmage knows McDaniels gives his quarterback freedom to think.

"It certainly seems like that," Manning said.

"I think he puts a lot of pressure on the quarterback; he challenges you," Cutler said. "As I understand it, once you learn that system, it gives you a lot of options. But he keeps it simple. Sometimes that stuff can get out of control, but he gets you to the line of scrimmage and gives you two, three options. It should be fun."

Mike Klis: 303-954-1055 or mklis@denverpost.com

Bad Intentions
02-08-2009, 02:51 PM
Jay made some excellent pre-snap reads at the LOS this year. Obviously the TD pass (93 yarder) to Eddie Royal vs the Browns immediately comes to mind. But there were several other plays he audibled to that had success. It was nice to seem him take a positive step forward in that area and showed that he was seeing what defenses were doing to him.

McD's system is similar in that it allows the QB a number of different options. Maybe not as many as somebody like Kurt Warner (up to 40 different calls at the line!!!) but he does have the ability to change out of a questionable call or into a high reward call based on what he sees pre-snap. The key will be getting the guys up to the line and forcing the defense to show their set with 8-10 seconds left on the play clock. I think he will have a lot of success!

Shazam!
02-08-2009, 02:58 PM
With McCoach, Cutler will be a changed QB in 2009 IMO. Hopefully for the better.

Lonestar
02-08-2009, 04:48 PM
With McCoach, Cutler will be a changed QB in 2009 IMO. Hopefully for the better.

My thoughts exactly lets hope he gets it and turns out to be more than just a talented QB with a big arm..

omac
02-08-2009, 05:24 PM
My thoughts exactly lets hope he gets it and turns out to be more than just a talented QB with a big arm..

He's always been more than just a talented QB with a big arm. He reads defenses well, has great pocket presence, is very composed, has shown the ability to carry the offense, can throw great on the move, can make every throw using the whole field, has great mobility, and makes clutch throws again and again.

His main weakness is that he believes he and his receivers can make every play; he just has to tone that down. I hope that when he does, we have at least a decent defense, because that will mean more punts and FGs from throwing the ball away.

Lonestar
02-08-2009, 05:30 PM
He's always been more than just a talented QB with a big arm. He reads defenses well, has great pocket presence, is very composed, has shown the ability to carry the offense, can throw great on the move, can make every throw using the whole field, has great mobility, and makes clutch throws again and again.

His main weakness is that he believes he and his receivers can make every play; he just has to tone that down. I hope that when he does, we have at least a decent defense, because that will mean more punts and FGs from throwing the ball away.


Your correct with the last statement..

Physical talent only carries someone so far.. we saw that with ashley and man among boys in college.. but actually had to work at it in the pros .

I think Jay needs to work on looking off DB's, throwing off his back foot, finding eh open receiver even if it is not the BIGGIE play and forcing the into minute spaces..

Once he "gets" it he will be one of the best.. IMHO

omac
02-08-2009, 09:44 PM
Your correct with the last statement..

Physical talent only carries someone so far.. we saw that with ashley and man among boys in college.. but actually had to work at it in the pros .

I think Jay needs to work on looking off DB's, throwing off his back foot, finding eh open receiver even if it is not the BIGGIE play and forcing the into minute spaces..

Once he "gets" it he will be one of the best.. IMHO

I'm correct with all my statements. :D

Actually, he's shown the ability to look off defenders, as Marshall's even mentioned it on a news article. When you talk of mechanics, Jay's is among the top, with that analyst during the Packers game mentioning his excellent footwork, and how through it he generates great torque. Sure he'll make some mistakes, and sure he'll throw off his back foot too, but even Jaws says QBs must have the ability to throw even when they're not properly set. He mentioned that with Favre, Cutler; others have mentioned similar things about how Brady Quinn is also able to get rid of the ball unorthodoxly (he jumped up before throwing it). Against good defenses, a QB may not always have the luxury of setting before throwing.

On forcing it, he does do that too much, but even Jaws says QBs must be able to do that, throw into tight spaces, even when heavily covered. You can't only always take what the defense gives you, because the real good defenses really give you close to nothing.

He'll probably get "it" much earlier than Jake got "it", since it's likely he'll be surrounded by a much better defense, whereas Jake had to wait till his 7th pro season to finally have a solid defense, when he got "it". Hehehe. :D

Magnificent Seven
02-08-2009, 11:12 PM
Check it out. Good Fake from Cutler.

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80ea4073

gobroncsnv
02-09-2009, 08:06 AM
I can't wait to see how much smarter Jay will get with a consistently good running game, also. No question, the pass was pretty much all we could rely on, especially the last 3 games. The throw-away does need to become more of his friend, all too true. But we also need to throw-away 3rd and 8, because our running game didn't work (twice). Definitely the QB's worst enemy.....

Lonestar
02-09-2009, 02:23 PM
I can't wait to see how much smarter Jay will get with a consistently good running game, also. No question, the pass was pretty much all we could rely on, especially the last 3 games. The throw-away does need to become more of his friend, all too true. But we also need to throw-away 3rd and 8, because our running game didn't work (twice). Definitely the QB's worst enemy.....

what makes you think we will go back to mikeys scheme of run first?

Pass first is here to stay IMHO.. so Jay needs to not throw into double triple coverage when others are open..

weazel
02-09-2009, 02:39 PM
Compare the physical talents and Jay Cutler is every bit as good as Peyton Manning and Tom Brady. Maybe better.



Its just too bad that 80% of being a great quarterback is not physical talent, its mental...

I hope he can learn from his mistakes because he does have the tools to be something great.

TXBRONC
02-10-2009, 09:02 AM
I'm correct with all my statements. :D

Actually, he's shown the ability to look off defenders, as Marshall's even mentioned it on a news article. When you talk of mechanics, Jay's is among the top, with that analyst during the Packers game mentioning his excellent footwork, and how through it he generates great torque. Sure he'll make some mistakes, and sure he'll throw off his back foot too, but even Jaws says QBs must have the ability to throw even when they're not properly set. He mentioned that with Favre, Cutler; others have mentioned similar things about how Brady Quinn is also able to get rid of the ball unorthodoxly (he jumped up before throwing it). Against good defenses, a QB may not always have the luxury of setting before throwing.

On forcing it, he does do that too much, but even Jaws says QBs must be able to do that, throw into tight spaces, even when heavily covered. You can't only always take what the defense gives you, because the real good defenses really give you close to nothing.

He'll probably get "it" much earlier than Jake got "it", since it's likely he'll be surrounded by a much better defense, whereas Jake had to wait till his 7th pro season to finally have a solid defense, when he got "it". Hehehe. :D

I think Jay already "gets it" but with a defense that gave up 448 points and an inconsistent running game he probably felt compelled to risk going for the big play. It's very similar to certain Hall of Famer who played Denver.

CoachChaz
02-10-2009, 09:54 AM
I think Jay already "gets it" but with a defense that gave up 448 points and an inconsistent running game he probably felt compelled to risk going for the big play. It's very similar to certain Hall of Famer who played Denver.

Obviously ALOT of things can be blamed on the defense, but the passing game did it's fair share of blowing up and losing games as well.

In the 8 losses, where we concievably needed to pass more...Jay averaged 256 passing yards and threw 8 TD's and 13 INT's with a completion % of 58%

In the 8 wins, where running the ball would have helped...Jay averaged 307 passing yards and threw only 5 INT's with 17 TD's with a completion % of 67%

What's interesting is in the 8 wins, Denver averaged 118 rushing yards per game and in the 8 losses they averaged 106.

So...inconsistency in the running game is not a valid excuse. Check that off.

I suppose we could lay the blame on the defense and it would make sense, but out of the 616 passes Jay threw, 52% of his attempts came in losses and the other 48% came in wins. So we really cant say that he had more chances to fail in the bad games because it's pretty even.

So, the biggest numbers that stick out to me are the QB numbers in losses vs. wins. Jay was very bad in the losses and very good in the wins and the blame cant be placed on the running game or the need to make more pass attempts. Bottom line is Jay is just as much at fault as any other aspect of the team and should not be receiving excuse after excuse.

We all have the hope that he'll improve and make the changes and he definately has the talent to do so. But at some point, we as fans, have to admit that he isnt the second coming of Christ. Not yet anyway.

TXBRONC
02-10-2009, 09:58 AM
Obviously ALOT of things can be blamed on the defense, but the passing game did it's fair share of blowing up and losing games as well.

In the 8 losses, where we concievably needed to pass more...Jay averaged 256 passing yards and threw 8 TD's and 13 INT's with a completion % of 58%

In the 8 wins, where running the ball would have helped...Jay averaged 307 passing yards and threw only 5 INT's with 17 TD's with a completion % of 67%

What's interesting is in the 8 wins, Denver averaged 118 rushing yards per game and in the 8 losses they averaged 106.

So...inconsistency in the running game is not a valid excuse. Check that off.

I suppose we could lay the blame on the defense and it would make sense, but out of the 616 passes Jay threw, 52% of his attempts came in losses and the other 48% came in wins. So we really cant say that he had more chances to fail in the bad games because it's pretty even.

So, the biggest numbers that stick out to me are the QB numbers in losses vs. wins. Jay was very bad in the losses and very good in the wins and the blame cant be placed on the running game or the need to make more pass attempts. Bottom line is Jay is just as much at fault as any other aspect of the team and should not be receiving excuse after excuse.

We all have the hope that he'll improve and make the changes and he definately has the talent to do so. But at some point, we as fans, have to admit that he isnt the second coming of Christ. Not yet anyway.

Well I know what I was seeing and I also know that numbers don't give always give you the entire picture. In other words just throwing out statistics isn't a valid excuse either. And also it wasn't pretty even any stretch of the imagination especially when the opponent was consistently winning the time of possesion battle.

NightTrainLayne
02-10-2009, 10:12 AM
Obviously ALOT of things can be blamed on the defense, but the passing game did it's fair share of blowing up and losing games as well.

In the 8 losses, where we concievably needed to pass more...Jay averaged 256 passing yards and threw 8 TD's and 13 INT's with a completion % of 58%

In the 8 wins, where running the ball would have helped...Jay averaged 307 passing yards and threw only 5 INT's with 17 TD's with a completion % of 67%

What's interesting is in the 8 wins, Denver averaged 118 rushing yards per game and in the 8 losses they averaged 106.

So...inconsistency in the running game is not a valid excuse. Check that off.

I suppose we could lay the blame on the defense and it would make sense, but out of the 616 passes Jay threw, 52% of his attempts came in losses and the other 48% came in wins. So we really cant say that he had more chances to fail in the bad games because it's pretty even.

So, the biggest numbers that stick out to me are the QB numbers in losses vs. wins. Jay was very bad in the losses and very good in the wins and the blame cant be placed on the running game or the need to make more pass attempts. Bottom line is Jay is just as much at fault as any other aspect of the team and should not be receiving excuse after excuse.

We all have the hope that he'll improve and make the changes and he definately has the talent to do so. But at some point, we as fans, have to admit that he isnt the second coming of Christ. Not yet anyway.

Coach, I'm not really trying to argue with you here, but trying to draw out a middle ground that I find myself in.

You can parse all those stats a hundred ways to Sunday and make the argument for either side. However, the really consistent thing I see is that our team's success went hand in hand with JC's success. When he played well, we won. When he played mediocre to bad we lost. Our chances of winning seemed last year to completely ride on his shoulders.

The defense didn't win us a single game. . .not even close. As you ably point out we had some decent rushing games that were losses. The key to every one was Cutler's performance.

He played decent this year. . .heck, he was voted to the Pro Bowl. A valid argument can be made that he didn't deserve to go, but he was in the conversation, which doesn't happen for hacks.

Maybe JC is at his peak. Maybe this is the best he'll ever be. I don't happen to think so, but maybe that's the case. Even if that's so, I think it's readily apparent that if we can get a couple other pieces of the puzzle put together with this level of Quarterbacking that this team can go a long ways.

For the better part of my life, I've argued about how good John Elway was, but that he had to do too much, and for a large portion of his career carried his teams on his shoulders getting them deeper in the playoffs than anyone else could have. For the most part, at least Broncos fans agree with me, and a few others that actually watched Elway play.

So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that Cutler did well for his 2nd/3rd season as a starter. Certainly he has room to improve. Certainly there are things that he just HAS to get better at.

On the other hand. How many QB's with his experience would do better with the 30th ranked defense? I mean really. If you were given a hypothetical team with a 3rd year QB (less than 2 starting) a group of no-name running backs, the other pieces of this offense which included two full-fledged rookies, and the 30th-ranked defense in the league. . .What would you expect to happen?

If the other pieces come together and Cutler improves only marginally, we'll still have a team that is leaps and bounds ahead of the team we fielded in 2005. But that's just my opinion.

Northman
02-10-2009, 10:16 AM
Coach, I'm not really trying to argue with you here, but trying to draw out a middle ground that I find myself in.

You can parse all those stats a hundred ways to Sunday and make the argument for either side. However, the really consistent thing I see is that our team's success went hand in hand with JC's success. When he played well, we won. When he played mediocre to bad we lost. Our chances of winning seemed last year to completely ride on his shoulders.

The defense didn't win us a single game. . .not even close. As you ably point out we had some decent rushing games that were losses. The key to every one was Cutler's performance.

He played decent this year. . .heck, he was voted to the Pro Bowl. A valid argument can be made that he didn't deserve to go, but he was in the conversation, which doesn't happen for hacks.

Maybe JC is at his peak. Maybe this is the best he'll ever be. I don't happen to think so, but maybe that's the case. Even if that's so, I think it's readily apparent that if we can get a couple other pieces of the puzzle put together with this level of Quarterbacking that this team can go a long ways.

For the better part of my life, I've argued about how good John Elway was, but that he had to do too much, and for a large portion of his career carried his teams on his shoulders getting them deeper in the playoffs than anyone else could have. For the most part, at least Broncos fans agree with me, and a few others that actually watched Elway play.

So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that Cutler did well for his 2nd/3rd season as a starter. Certainly he has room to improve. Certainly there are things that he just HAS to get better at.

On the other hand. How many QB's with his experience would do better with the 30th ranked defense? I mean really. If you were given a hypothetical team with a 3rd year QB (less than 2 starting) a group of no-name running backs, the other pieces of this offense which included two full-fledged rookies, and the 30th-ranked defense in the league. . .What would you expect to happen?

If the other pieces come together and Cutler improves only marginally, we'll still have a team that is leaps and bounds ahead of the team we fielded in 2005. But that's just my opinion.


Well said and exactly on point. :beer:

CoachChaz
02-10-2009, 10:24 AM
Well I know what I was seeing and I also know that numbers don't give always give you the entire picture. In other words just throwing out statistics isn't a valid excuse either. And also it wasn't pretty even any stretch of the imagination especially when the opponent was consistently winning the time of possesion battle.

In our 8 wins, we only won the TOP battle 3 times. In the 8 losses, we won it once.

Now figuring out a total average, the TOP difference in W's vs L's is probably in the neighborhood of about 2 minutes difference per game.

Does that 2 minutes lead to more losses than the 13 INT's?

TXBRONC
02-10-2009, 10:25 AM
The defense didn't win us a single game. . .not even close.

No kidding. :salute:

CoachChaz
02-10-2009, 10:28 AM
Coach, I'm not really trying to argue with you here, but trying to draw out a middle ground that I find myself in.

You can parse all those stats a hundred ways to Sunday and make the argument for either side. However, the really consistent thing I see is that our team's success went hand in hand with JC's success. When he played well, we won. When he played mediocre to bad we lost. Our chances of winning seemed last year to completely ride on his shoulders.

The defense didn't win us a single game. . .not even close. As you ably point out we had some decent rushing games that were losses. The key to every one was Cutler's performance.

He played decent this year. . .heck, he was voted to the Pro Bowl. A valid argument can be made that he didn't deserve to go, but he was in the conversation, which doesn't happen for hacks.

Maybe JC is at his peak. Maybe this is the best he'll ever be. I don't happen to think so, but maybe that's the case. Even if that's so, I think it's readily apparent that if we can get a couple other pieces of the puzzle put together with this level of Quarterbacking that this team can go a long ways.

For the better part of my life, I've argued about how good John Elway was, but that he had to do too much, and for a large portion of his career carried his teams on his shoulders getting them deeper in the playoffs than anyone else could have. For the most part, at least Broncos fans agree with me, and a few others that actually watched Elway play.

So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that Cutler did well for his 2nd/3rd season as a starter. Certainly he has room to improve. Certainly there are things that he just HAS to get better at.

On the other hand. How many QB's with his experience would do better with the 30th ranked defense? I mean really. If you were given a hypothetical team with a 3rd year QB (less than 2 starting) a group of no-name running backs, the other pieces of this offense which included two full-fledged rookies, and the 30th-ranked defense in the league. . .What would you expect to happen?

If the other pieces come together and Cutler improves only marginally, we'll still have a team that is leaps and bounds ahead of the team we fielded in 2005. But that's just my opinion.

I think you and me are actually in the same book, but just a different page. I completely agree that the differences in our wins and losses can be attributed to Jay's performance. That being said, why is it when he throws for 400 yards and 3 TD's, he gets all the glory for the win, but when he throws for 180 yards with 3 INT's it's the running game and defense that get the blame?

I'm completely on board with the fact that he is a young QB and still has alot to learn and that his learning experience will benefit by having a better team around him. In the meantime, all I'm saying is that we cannot look past the fact that jay is just as responsible for the Denver troubles as any other aspect of the team. NO EXCUSES

TXBRONC
02-10-2009, 10:30 AM
In our 8 wins, we only won the TOP battle 3 times. In the 8 losses, we won it once.

Now figuring out a total average, the TOP difference in W's vs L's is probably in the neighborhood of about 2 minutes difference per game.

Does that 2 minutes lead to more losses than the 13 INT's?

You can parse anyway you wish, but I'm Northman on this. Besides that where does the two minute advantage come the beginning, middle, or end of game. In the losses I would bet the opponents gained the upper hand somewhere be the middle of the third quarter and the fourth quarter.

CoachChaz
02-10-2009, 11:08 AM
You can parse anyway you wish, but I'm Northman on this. Besides that where does the two minute advantage come the beginning, middle, or end of game. In the losses I would bet the opponents gained the upper hand somewhere be the middle of the third quarter and the fourth quarter.

So any mistake Jay makes is a direct result of the hole the defense put him in and that's that? I guess the fact that our losses and his bad games work hand in hand has nothing to do with why we lost...because the defense is ultimately to blame no matter what...and even though our running game was the definition of consistent from a production standpoint, we'll blame that are as well.

Excuses.

TXBRONC
02-10-2009, 11:13 AM
So any mistake Jay makes is a direct result of the hole the defense put him in and that's that? I guess the fact that our losses and his bad games work hand in hand has nothing to do with why we lost...because the defense is ultimately to blame no matter what...and even though our running game was the definition of consistent from a production standpoint, we'll blame that are as well.

Excuses.

I didn't say Jay didn't have his hand in it at the same time I'm reading/not reading much emphaisis what part the defense in it as well. You're entitled to believe the running game was the definition of consistent it wasn't in my book.

CoachChaz
02-10-2009, 11:58 AM
I didn't say Jay didn't have his hand in it at the same time I'm reading/not reading much emphaisis what part the defense in it as well. You're entitled to believe the running game was the definition of consistent it wasn't in my book.

112 yards rushing in wins...106 yards rushing in losses. The players may have been different, but the production doesnt get much more consistent than that.

The funny thing is if the numbers our running game put up throughout the year were done primarily by Hillis, the consensus would be that our running game was incredible.

TXBRONC
02-10-2009, 12:03 PM
112 yards rushing in wins...106 yards rushing in losses. The players may have been different, but the production doesnt get much more consistent than that.

The funny thing is if the numbers our running game put up throughout the year were done primarily by Hillis, the consensus would be that our running game was incredible.

There's nothing funny about it at all Hillis was consistent when he was the starting running back. I also recall most of our yardage came at the beginning of games and not the end of games so no it was not consistent.

Northman
02-10-2009, 12:06 PM
I didn't say Jay didn't have his hand in it at the same time I'm reading/not reading much emphaisis what part the defense in it as well. You're entitled to believe the running game was the definition of consistent it wasn't in my book.


Yea, with the way the team is right now in terms of defense and lack of RB production it wouldnt be that hard to give credit to Jay for when he was able to carry the team on his shoulders. And then at the same time understand that when he fails its because those very same problems did not step when they needed to or should of to assist him. Thus, making it easy for some teams to figure him out and force him to make mistakes.

My guess is when we are finally able to put more balance to the offense and improve the defense dramatically that his decision making will improve along with his maturing as an overall player. Right now we are trying to groom a young Qb with broken down spare parts. If McDaniels can find a way to get him better support in some of the other areas on this team it will help Jay limit his mistakes. Also, having consistency in terms of coaching may have a big impact on his future success.

Northman
02-10-2009, 12:08 PM
There nothing funny about it all Hillis consistent when he was the starting running back. I also recall most of our yardage came at the beginning of games and not the end of games so no it was not consistent.

True.

While we may have been able to run early in games it was quite evident by the end of them there was far too much ground to make up. Either because the defense collapsed or because Shanahan abandoned the run early in the game. Either way, it was quite obvious from day 1 that the load was going to be carried by Jay and when he was on he didnt need too much help. If he was sluggish or struggled the rest of the team couldnt come through both in player personnel or coaching.

TXBRONC
02-10-2009, 12:18 PM
Yea, with the way the team is right now in terms of defense and lack of RB production it wouldnt be that hard to give credit to Jay for when he was able to carry the team on his shoulders. And then at the same time understand that when he fails its because those very same problems did not step when they needed to or should of to assist him. Thus, making it easy for some teams to figure him out and force him to make mistakes.

My guess is when we are finally able to put more balance to the offense and improve the defense dramatically that his decision making will improve along with his maturing as an overall player. Right now we are trying to groom a young Qb with broken down spare parts. If McDaniels can find a way to get him better support in some of the other areas on this team it will help Jay limit his mistakes. Also, having consistency in terms of coaching may have a big impact on his future success.

Agreed.

CoachChaz
02-10-2009, 12:28 PM
Yea, with the way the team is right now in terms of defense and lack of RB production it wouldnt be that hard to give credit to Jay for when he was able to carry the team on his shoulders. And then at the same time understand that when he fails its because those very same problems did not step when they needed to or should of to assist him. Thus, making it easy for some teams to figure him out and force him to make mistakes.
My guess is when we are finally able to put more balance to the offense and improve the defense dramatically that his decision making will improve along with his maturing as an overall player. Right now we are trying to groom a young Qb with broken down spare parts. If McDaniels can find a way to get him better support in some of the other areas on this team it will help Jay limit his mistakes. Also, having consistency in terms of coaching may have a big impact on his future success.

Help me here. If the running game was producing the same every game, regardless of win or loss...and the passing game was significantly worse in the losses than in the wins...how the hell did the running game not support Jay?

I'll agree that it had to be abandoned many times due to lack of defense, but nevertheless, the running game did it's job when it was given the chance and it produced EVERY game.

TXBRONC
02-10-2009, 12:37 PM
Help me here. If the running game was producing the same every game, regardless of win or loss...and the passing game was significantly worse in the losses than in the wins...how the hell did the running game not support Jay?

I'll agree that it had to be abandoned many times due to lack of defense, but nevertheless, the running game did it's job when it was given the chance and it produced EVERY game.

I don't agree with you, from what I recall in most games the majority of the yardage was accumulated in the first half of games. I don't think any coach is going to say his running attack is consistent if it can't produce fairly equally from the first to the second half of games.

Also if you recognize that we had to abandon the run because the defense couldn't get stops consistently, then doesn't it stand to reason that our opponents understood that as well and could tee off on the passing game?

Northman
02-10-2009, 12:42 PM
Help me here. If the running game was producing the same every game, regardless of win or loss...and the passing game was significantly worse in the losses than in the wins...how the hell did the running game not support Jay?

I'll agree that it had to be abandoned many times due to lack of defense, but nevertheless, the running game did it's job when it was given the chance and it produced EVERY game.


There's a few ways to look at it. Yes, we had some success on the ground. But would you say it still instilled fear in opposing defenses like in years past? I dont. In fact i dont think any team fears our running game like they would against a Pitt or SD team. Against tougher defenses we really didnt do much on the ground, which probably lead to Shanahan abandoning it early thus again putting the pressure back on Jay to carry it with his arm. Weather can play a factor at times as well and if your running game isnt working or the Coach doesnt utilize what running game you do have again, its back on the Qb.

In the case of this past year, you had to throw in the injuries at that position which only added to the problems we were already facing. Even further is Jay's health. I dont know how much his Betes play into it as ive never seen a player play with something like that but that also has an effect. And then finally, he is still learning. He's a young Qb who is continueing to learn the game. So like i said, there are a lot of factors here as too why his turnover ratio is up. I think if there is a balance as well as his growth as a player those things will go down. But for me, its much too early to determine if he is a bust or not going to make it as a NFL QB. For me, once the other issues get resolved i will be able as a fan to determine his success in this league.

CoachChaz
02-10-2009, 12:46 PM
I can see where and why the running game was sometimes missing in the 2nd half of games, but then again, the attempts were less as well. Did the defense play a part in that? Absolutely. But did lackluster play from the passing game in our losses have an equal blame? You bet.

Northman
02-10-2009, 12:52 PM
I can see where and why the running game was sometimes missing in the 2nd half of games, but then again, the attempts were less as well. Did the defense play a part in that? Absolutely. But did lackluster play from the passing game in our losses have an equal blame? You bet.


Im not really claiming that the passing game didnt have an effect on the outcome of games. But there we a lot of different factors involved with that and i would like to see how he performs with a better supporting cast both on the field and off.

CoachChaz
02-10-2009, 12:56 PM
Im not really claiming that the passing game didnt have an effect on the outcome of games. But there we a lot of different factors involved with that and i would like to see how he performs with a better supporting cast both on the field and off.

Exactly. Like I said, the future will tell alot and I think he will be great, but up to this point, I cant call him a Pro-Bowl QB.

Northman
02-10-2009, 01:00 PM
Exactly. Like I said, the future will tell alot and I think he will be great, but up to this point, I cant call him a Pro-Bowl QB.

And thats probably the only place that we will disagree. I dont look at the Pro Bowl as the deciding factor if a player is the greatest or not. His stats this year were good enough to get noticed and some of the voters probably took in the account the other problems on this team as their determination of voting him in. Whether you agree or not that he deserved to go over Rivers or someone else is debateable. But even if Jay becomes a bust in the long run his 2008 was worthy enough of an appearance in my mind. JMO

CoachChaz
02-10-2009, 01:09 PM
And thats probably the only place that we will disagree. I dont look at the Pro Bowl as the deciding factor if a player is the greatest or not. His stats this year were good enough to get noticed and some of the voters probably took in the account the other problems on this team as their determination of voting him in. Whether you agree or not that he deserved to go over Rivers or someone else is debateable. But even if Jay becomes a bust in the long run his 2008 was worthy enough of an appearance in my mind. JMO

If I have to pick the top 3 QB's in the AFC, he wasnt deserving. Maybe not even top 5.

Rivers, Manning, Pennington, Cassell, even Shaub in limited time had better overall seasons...IMO. Jay had good numbers and he had reasons for those numbers that were good. He also had reasons for the numbers that were not so good.

If we're going to say his numbers would have been better if not for other factors, then we can say the same for Romo or Rodgers or Hill, etc.

TXBRONC
02-10-2009, 01:13 PM
If I have to pick the top 3 QB's in the AFC, he wasnt deserving. Maybe not even top 5.

Rivers, Manning, Pennington, Cassell, even Shaub in limited time had better overall seasons...IMO. Jay had good numbers and he had reasons for those numbers that were good. He also had reasons for the numbers that were not so good.

If we're going to say his numbers would have been better if not for other factors, then we can say the same for Romo or Rodgers or Hill, etc.

That's true for every quarterback in the League, but I don't see how that means he shouldn't have gone to the Pro-Bowl.

CoachChaz
02-10-2009, 01:20 PM
That's true for every quarterback in the League, but I don't see how that means he shouldn't have gone to the Pro-Bowl.

Not necessarily true for every QB in the league. You could have made a ton of excuses for Ben and put him there, but he wasnt. Instead all he did was win a Super Bowl.

Medford Bronco
02-10-2009, 02:23 PM
Your correct with the last statement..

Physical talent only carries someone so far.. we saw that with ashley and man among boys in college.. but actually had to work at it in the pros .

I think Jay needs to work on looking off DB's, throwing off his back foot, finding eh open receiver even if it is not the BIGGIE play and forcing the into minute spaces..

Once he "gets" it he will be one of the best.. IMHO

Just ask Jeff George about talent and not a smart brain

George was as talented as anyone but made dumb decisions. I hope Cutler grows up and starts to come into his own in year 4.

Lonestar
02-10-2009, 02:36 PM
Exactly. Like I said, the future will tell alot and I think he will be great, but up to this point, I cant call him a Pro-Bowl QB.


especially with his play there hardly stellar IMHO.. When you place him side by side with Manning well there is no comparison..

It was not like was surrounded by anyone less than a pro bowler..

Sorry this kid needs a few more years to become the QB that is gonna be consistently good to great..

NOW hopefully with the new coach that did wonders with a absolute rookie QB last year they can reign in the urge to go deep on most every play..

Something that mikey/bates seemed to encourage..

Lonestar
02-10-2009, 02:39 PM
Not necessarily true for every QB in the league. You could have made a ton of excuses for Ben and put him there, but he wasnt. Instead all he did was win TWO Super Bowls.

Edited for accuracy

jrelway
02-10-2009, 03:26 PM
If I have to pick the top 3 QB's in the AFC, he wasnt deserving. Maybe not even top 5.

Rivers, Manning, Pennington, Cassell, even Shaub in limited time had better overall seasons...IMO. Jay had good numbers and he had reasons for those numbers that were good. He also had reasons for the numbers that were not so good.

If we're going to say his numbers would have been better if not for other factors, then we can say the same for Romo or Rodgers or Hill, etc.

besides manning, all those guys you mentioned had some serious running backs behind them to help them out.

jrelway
02-10-2009, 03:28 PM
especially with his play there hardly stellar IMHO.. When you place him side by side with Manning well there is no comparison..

It was not like was surrounded by anyone less than a pro bowler..

Sorry this kid needs a few more years to become the QB that is gonna be consistently good to great..

NOW hopefully with the new coach that did wonders with a absolute rookie QB last year they can reign in the urge to go deep on most every play..

Something that mikey/bates seemed to encourage..

give cutler a decent run game with a defense that can give him a short field and you will see a much improved cutler running our offense. also not to play from behind all the time.

Lonestar
02-10-2009, 03:34 PM
give cutler a decent run game with a defense that can give him a short field and you will see a much improved cutler running our offense. also not to play from behind all the time.

While you make some valid points Jay caused alot of 14 point turn arounds with picks either in the end zone or deep in the Red zone..

Forcing the ball.. When others were open..

Those had NOTHING to do with a poor defense or lack of running game..

BTW you can also add lousy special teams to you list of excuses for Jay.. maybe even crappy play calling and lousy coaching decisions.. Such as playing Larsen as FB instead of MLB or maybe even allowing a talented RB in Hillis to become the 7-8 option because he did not fit into mikey preconceived notion that RB have to be 207-210 pounds.

jrelway
02-10-2009, 03:36 PM
While you make some valid points Jay caused alot of 14 point turn arounds with picks either in the end zone or deep in the Red zone..

Forcing the ball.. When others were open..

Those had NOTHING to do with a poor defense or lack of running game..

true but when teams know your gonna pass, the percentage of INT's go way up. i think jay forcing the balls into coverage will get better as he ages. 3rd year qb btw. i got faith.

Lonestar
02-10-2009, 03:38 PM
true but when teams know your gonna pass, the percentage of INT's go way up. i think jay forcing the balls into coverage will get better as he ages. 3rd year qb btw. i got faith.

see my edit and see it it helps..

CoachChaz
02-10-2009, 04:01 PM
give cutler a decent run game with a defense that can give him a short field and you will see a much improved cutler running our offense. also not to play from behind all the time.


I'll agree on the defense, but...

No offense, but this running game excuse is getting old. Would the same doubts and questions be raised if ONE back accumulated our team rushing yards as opposed to 7 or 8?

Personally, I dont think it matters how many backs add to the yardage. You can give me 16 different running backs and have each one of them run for 100 yards each week and I'll have a hard time saying the running game wasnt there.



But all that being said. if we did have just ONE guy running for 1200 yards and a top 15 defense...how do we know that would guarantee us "a much improved cutler running our offense."

Northman
02-10-2009, 04:26 PM
If I have to pick the top 3 QB's in the AFC, he wasnt deserving. Maybe not even top 5.

Rivers, Manning, Pennington, Cassell, even Shaub in limited time had better overall seasons...IMO. Jay had good numbers and he had reasons for those numbers that were good. He also had reasons for the numbers that were not so good.

If we're going to say his numbers would have been better if not for other factors, then we can say the same for Romo or Rodgers or Hill, etc.

And like i said, those can all be debated but for me personally i have no problem with him making the Pro Bowl this year. Again, just one's opinion on how i saw his season transpire.

Northman
02-10-2009, 04:27 PM
Not necessarily true for every QB in the league. You could have made a ton of excuses for Ben and put him there, but he wasnt. Instead all he did was win a Super Bowl.

And im sure he would be just fine with that. As so would I. I could care less if Jay goes to the Pro Bowl but if his numbers support it and he gets voted in i also have no problem with it. But in the long run i would rather have him winning Super Bowls. Ben isnt pretty out there but he gets the ones that mean the most right now.

Northman
02-10-2009, 04:29 PM
Just ask Jeff George about talent and not a smart brain

I hope Cutler grows up and starts to come into his own in year 4.

Same here but we arent at that point yet.

topscribe
02-10-2009, 04:31 PM
Just ask Jeff George about talent and not a smart brain

I would, but Jeff isn't smart enough to know . . .

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TXBRONC
02-10-2009, 04:36 PM
Just ask Jeff George about talent and not a smart brain

George was as talented as anyone but made dumb decisions. I hope Cutler grows up and starts to come into his own in year 4.

Med excatly how has Cutler been a coach killer like Jeff George?

CoachChaz
02-10-2009, 04:53 PM
Med excatly how has Cutler been a coach killer like Jeff George?

Is that really the point you got from his comment?

topscribe
02-10-2009, 04:56 PM
Is that really the point you got from his comment?

I think he got it, as did I.

Trouble is, the comparison is so asinine that it should be ignored . . .

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CoachChaz
02-10-2009, 04:58 PM
I think he got it, as did I.

Trouble is, the comparison is so asinine that it should be ignored . . .

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...and the coach killer assumption was even worse. That's how points and arguments get so skewed. Nowhere was it said that Cutler is a coach killer, but because someone insinuates that...somehow it'll be discussed and argued.

TXBRONC
02-10-2009, 05:07 PM
...and the coach killer assumption was even worse. That's how points and arguments get so skewed. Nowhere was it said that Cutler is a coach killer, but because someone insinuates that...somehow it'll be discussed and argued.

Well actually Jr has made that connection. Were some you of guy are trying separate George's statistics from how he acted you can't. Anyone who has been around long enough knows damn well George's stats are a reflection of how he acted towards his teammates and his coaches. So if you're going to say Cutler is like Jeff which is assine in and of itself then you are making that comparison as well.