Are You SOLD on Tebow as Our Franchise QB?

[WARHORSE]

Wondering where Bronco Nation stands right about now.

I know we all WANT Tim to be the man, but how many are sold on him at this point?

Poll coming.

[BroncoWave]

Yes. I have been since the day we drafted him. He's gotten better and better each week.

[Northman]

Not sure yet. Most QB's dont hit full stride until year 3 anyway.

[camdisco24]

Yes.

I will be sold on Tebow until he proves to not be a winner. I see huge potential and cannot wait to see what he can do with a full offseason of training. I'm not going to sit here and be a doubter, because at this point, doubting has become un-objective and really just a waste of time, filled with empty excuses.

[WARHORSE]

Yes. I have been since the day we drafted him. He's gotten better and better each week.

He has indeed shown progress.

Id like to see him play from the pocket more though, not only for the experience he needs, but to prolong his career if he proves to be the man for us.

Big game this week.


I hope we come out swinging.

[BigDaddyBronco]

I'm pretty sold on him, but want to see progress in the offseason. Put it this way, if Elway trades up to draft his replacement in the 1st round next year, I'll be pissed.

[NorCalBronco7]

Of course Im sold. Hes a winner and growing every week. There is no doubt that Tebow is the Broncos long term solution in my mind. None.

[GEM]

I am on board with him. I like everything he stands for all the other stuff he brings to the table. Had I not seen some development and improvement the last 6 weeks, not so sure that would have been enough. Because I have seen improvement, I would venture to say that given an offseason and working with coaches and Elway, I don't think we are even close to seeing the ceiling of what he will be able to do.

[TimHippo]

I'm pretty sold on him, but want to see progress in the offseason. Put it this way, if Elway trades up to draft his replacement in the 1st round next year, I'll be pissed.

But realistically I don't see what they could trade up to move up to top 5-10 to pick RG3 or Luck or Barkley besides Von Miller. You would have to send a boatload of draft picks that would mortgage the future.

I think that ship has passed in drafting a marquee QB next year.

I'm not even sold on Barkley considering how USC QBs have faired lately coming out of a supposed Pro Set. You look at Sanchez and Leinart and they are nothing special. Carson Palmer is probably the most successful and he wasn't even worth keeping around in Cincinnati.

[wayninja]

I think the choices in the poll are good here.

I chose Yes, as long as he continues to improve. If he bombs the rest of the year, I'll definitely move back to the fence at best.

I don't necessarily need to win a playoff game, but with the position we are in, I need him to show he won't blow the division lead.

[blamkin86]

What Gem said, maybe 0.5% less enthusiastic/hopeful.

I voted "not sure" because I don't see us winning year in, year out, with nothing but the boring Option and "hopefully they aren't covering our deep guy on this particular play"

If he shows up next year with greatly improved pocket passing, then yes, franchise. If he shows up next year with more of the same - hard to argue against winning, but I (personally) believe that the option ain't gonna get it done, from a franchise standpoint.

[Dzone]

Yes!Yes!Yes!

[Day1BroncoFan]

I'm not sure yet. I just don't know how long this can last. I love his attitude and what he stands for. He is an excellent role model and a winner.

If we don't play him next year I won't be a happy camper. If he continues to improve over the off season and into next year then I may change my mind.

[BroncoWave]

What Gem said, maybe 0.5% less enthusiastic/hopeful.

I voted "not sure" because I don't see us winning year in, year out, with nothing but the boring Option and "hopefully they aren't covering our deep guy on this particular play"

If he shows up next year with greatly improved pocket passing, then yes, franchise. If he shows up next year with more of the same - hard to argue against winning, but I (personally) believe that the option ain't gonna get it done, from a franchise standpoint.

Do you actually watch the games? We have run the option less and less each week. And all of Tebow's success against the Bears came on short and intermediate passes.

[tebowtime5502]

Unfortunately, it looks like T2 will have to perform a miracle to get approval from Elway.

Is he a franchise QB? lol...I don't answer silly questions.

T2 would win multiple superbowls if given the reigns.

Elway is blinded by ego and jealousy.

[Ravage!!!]

I'm not convinced yet.

Here is why.

We have seen many QBs like him, even if some want to say otherwise.

Vick is faster, a better runner, and has a stronger arm. He wasn't considered a good passer coming out of college and they limited his reads as much as possible, and he led the Falcons to the playoffs his first year as the starter. His name was even in the list for NFL MVP. The game caught up in a hurry, and Vick had to rely on his passing to win. True, Vick isn't as big as Tebow is...but other than that, a ton of parallels.

Vince Young. As good of an athlete as Tebow, as big as Tebow, as good of a runner as Tebow, and a bit better passer than Tebow is. We had posters on here telling us that it didn't matter that he couldn't pass the football, just look at his W/L record (silk). He excelled when the Titans defense was STUD under Fisher. But once the defense came back down a bit, and the offense had to rely more on him passing the ball, so did the wins and his play.

Now I'm not talking about off field, mental stuff. Tebow is an AMAZING person that no-one can ever root against. You have to be a fool to not like this guy, and I can honestly say that I'm a BIG Tebow fan, as a person and as a Bronco!! But as a QB, his passing is bad. How many bad passers have we seen become "good passers" once they reach the NFL??

So I'm not convinced, but would love it if Tebow can become everything that people wish him to be, because he would be a FANTASTIC person to have lead our team.

[blamkin86]

And all of Tebow's success against the Bears came on short and intermediate passes.

You mean, at the end of the game, when the Bears went away from the spy and went back to Cover 2?

The part where their defense changed?

[blamkin86]

Elway is blinded by ego and jealousy.

How do you figure?

[wayninja]

You mean, at the end of the game, when the Bears went away from the spy and went back to Cover 2?

The part where their defense changed?

Yes, the same part where the receivers didn't drop any balls.

[TimHippo]

I'm not convinced yet.

Here is why.

We have seen many QBs like him, even if some want to say otherwise.

Vick is faster, a better runner, and has a stronger arm. He wasn't considered a good passer coming out of college and they limited his reads as much as possible, and he led the Falcons to the playoffs his first year as the starter. His name was even in the list for NFL MVP. The game caught up in a hurry, and Vick had to rely on his passing to win. True, Vick isn't as big as Tebow is...but other than that, a ton of parallels.

Vince Young. As good of an athlete as Tebow, as big as Tebow, as good of a runner as Tebow, and a bit better passer than Tebow is. We had posters on here telling us that it didn't matter that he couldn't pass the football, just look at his W/L record (silk). He excelled when the Titans defense was STUD under Fisher. But once the defense came back down a bit, and the offense had to rely more on him passing the ball, so did the wins and his play.

Now I'm not talking about off field, mental stuff. Tebow is an AMAZING person that no-one can ever root against. You have to be a fool to not like this guy, and I can honestly say that I'm a BIG Tebow fan, as a person and as a Bronco!! But as a QB, his passing is bad. How many bad passers have we seen become "good passers" once they reach the NFL??

So I'm not convinced, but would love it if Tebow can become everything that people wish him to be, because he would be a FANTASTIC person to have lead our team.

I think most people would be happy with having Vick. I wouldn't consider him a bust at all. He's still a franchise QB. Injuries have been the issue with him.

As far as Vince Young.
He was a career 61.8% passer in college. 6.1 TD rate but 3.9 INT%. That 3.9 INT% is a red flag as that is really high for NCAA football. Usually the INT% will go up in the NFL but when it's that high to begin with it goes down. Still In the NFL he's been 3.5 INT% which is horrible.

Tebow was 66.4% in college. 8.8 TD rate and 1.6 INT%. He did not make mistakes in college and that's translating to the pro game as well.

[camdisco24]

Unfortunately, it looks like T2 will have to perform a miracle to get approval from Elway.

Is he a franchise QB? lol...I don't answer silly questions.

T2 would win multiple superbowls if given the reigns.

Elway is blinded by ego and jealousy.

Actually, pretty sure if he just continues to win, Elway will approve pretty quickly.

Look, Elway is not a villain. There is no ego, no jealousy. If the Broncos are winning, Elway is doing his job. If Tebow contributes to that, which he HAS, Elway will give him proper credit at the end of the season. Why why why does he have to do that now though??

[BroncoJoe]

Until he proves otherwise, I think it's silly to consider him anything but our future QB.

[tebowtime5502]

How do you figure?

Elway didn't want T2 to succeed from day one.

What are you talking about?

I'm not even going into that topic anymore with you niave folk.

[rcsodak]

Yes. I have been since the day we drafted him. He's gotten better and better each week.
Well, lol, where he started has left him alot of room to do that.
Lets see how he does against a division leading playoff team.

A dozen 3 n outs WONT win this game, let alone keep them even close.

Hey.....Orton /McD beat them so I'm sure TT/Foxy can.

Question is, to the OP......is the fanbase willing to spend another year watching TT "learn", with no certainty?

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[tebowtime5502]

Actually, pretty sure if he just continues to win, Elway will approve pretty quickly.

Look, Elway is not a villain. There is no ego, no jealousy. If the Broncos are winning, Elway is doing his job. If Tebow contributes to that, which he HAS, Elway will give him proper credit at the end of the season. Why why why does he have to do that now though??

Look at Elway's first 11 games and then look at Tebow's. Look at every single facet of the game. Every single one.

For Elway not to be fully supporting Tebow is a crime, a mockey and a flatout misjustice.

[Day1BroncoFan]

Elway vs Tebow in a cage match to the death!

[rcsodak]

Not sure yet. Most QB's dont hit full stride until year 3 anyway.
True. But most have the throwing the ball aspect down, day 1.

If TT, after yr 2 of starting, is still struggling, does EFX give him another?

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[wayninja]

Look at Elway's first 11 games and then look at Tebow's. Look at every single facet of the game. Every single one.

For Elway not to be fully supporting Tebow is a crime, a mockey and a flatout misjustice.

Every facet, like the rules, for instance?

[camdisco24]

Elway didn't want T2 to succeed from day one.



That is such a line of BS. Elway wants the Broncos to WIN. He may not have seen Tebow's talent at first, since they are so different in play style... But NOW to try and claim Elway is against Tebow??? Are you serious???

Elway is a professional. His job was not to come out and power Tebow to the starting position.

[camdisco24]

Look at Elway's first 11 games and then look at Tebow's. Look at every single facet of the game. Every single one.

For Elway not to be fully supporting Tebow is a crime, a mockey and a flatout misjustice.

Have you heard any of the recent Elway interviews???

[tebowtime5502]

Every facet, like the rules, for instance?

I'm fairly sure Tebow knows the rules of the game.

[blamkin86]

Yes, the same part where the receivers didn't drop any balls.

Ah, gotcha. Here we go again with, Tebow does nothing wrong, if there's a problem it must be someone else. All hail Tebow.

In fact, why don't we shut down the discussion board here, and jail anyone who says anything bad about Tebow.

Good work ace.

[BroncoWave]

I'm fairly sure Tebow knows the rules of the game.

Pretty sure he means the NFL rules now favor QBs MUCH more than they did when Elway played.

[rcsodak]

Do you actually watch the games? We have run the option less and less each week. And all of Tebow's success against the Bears came on short and intermediate passes.
In prevent.
Ditka says if you want to squash his late heroics, you blitz him.

Hard to disagree with him, and nobody can figure out why chi gave him the passing game.

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[blamkin86]

Elway didn't want T2 to succeed from day one.

You are stuck in the past brother.

[BroncoWave]

In prevent.
Ditka says if you want to squash his late heroics, you blitz him.

Hard to disagree with him, and nobody can figure out why chi gave him the passing game.

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The Jets tried to blitz him on the last drive and he drove it 95 yards on them. Try again.

[rcsodak]

Unfortunately, it looks like T2 will have to perform a miracle to get approval from Elway.

Is he a franchise QB? lol...I don't answer silly questions.

T2 would win multiple superbowls if given the reigns.

Elway is blinded by ego and jealousy.

:coffee: :rolleyes:

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[tebowtime5502]

Pretty sure he means the NFL rules now favor QBs MUCH more than they did when Elway played.

lol. Please. That is an absolute joke to discredit T2's obvious DOMINANCE of Elway through 11 games. I don't want to hear it. You adjust to the time you're playing in. Tim Tebow doesn't need help from any rules. Tebow is a grown ass man.

Hand checking was allowed when Jerry West was playing, but Kobe Bryant is still MUCH better than him and any objective person knows this.

[GEM]

Unfortunately, it looks like T2 will have to perform a miracle to get approval from Elway.

Is he a franchise QB? lol...I don't answer silly questions.

T2 would win multiple superbowls if given the reigns.

Elway is blinded by ego and jealousy.

Give it a rest. Elway is in no way jealous of Tebow. He has no need to be. He has accomplished more. So until Tebow gets on HIS level, pipe down, shorty.

Gosh sakes....Tebow would be embarrassed by you.

[TimHippo]

Hard to disagree with him, and nobody can figure out why chi gave him the passing game.

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I usually hate the prevent but in this case the strategy was actually sound. If Marion Barber handn't gone out of bounds there would have been 5-10 seconds left when the broncos got the ball back.

[Jsteve01]

lol. Please. That is an absolute joke to discredit T2's obvious DOMINANCE of Elway through 11 games. I don't want to hear it. You adjust to the time you're playing in. Tim Tebow doesn't need help from any rules. Tebow is a grown ass man.

Hand checking was allowed when Jerry West was playing, but Kobe Bryant is still MUCH better than him and any objective person knows this.

So just so Im straight. You're saying Tebow is better than Elway?

[rcsodak]

Have you heard any of the recent Elway interviews???
More fanboi, not the team, rah rah.

Lol....just imagine what the offseason's going to bring.

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[TimHippo]

You are stuck in the past brother.

You'll have to forgive my friend, he's a little slow.

[GEM]

Elway didn't want T2 to succeed from day one.

What are you talking about?

I'm not even going into that topic anymore with you niave folk.

You are so full of shit. You want Elway to come out kissing your savior's ass and well, that shit is not going to happen. Not now and probably not ever.

That sure as hell does not mean that Elway does not want him to succeed. Tebow succeeding makes Elway look good, Mr. Naive. DUH!!

Wow....just wow....the silliness displayed in your posts is well....nauseating.

[Jsteve01]

:beer:
Give it a rest. Elway is in no way jealous of Tebow. He has no need to be. He has accomplished more. So until Tebow gets on HIS level, pipe down, shorty.

Gosh sakes....Tebow would be embarrassed by you.

These newb fans apparently don't realize the type of competitor that Elway is. He didn't take this job to secure his legacy as the greatest qb the Broncos have seen. He took it to return the franchise that he loves to dominance. And having a winner at qb is the best way to do that.

[GEM]

Well, lol, where he started has left him alot of room to do that.
Lets see how he does against a division leading playoff team.

A dozen 3 n outs WONT win this game, let alone keep them even close.

Hey.....Orton /McD beat them so I'm sure TT/Foxy can.

Question is, to the OP......is the fanbase willing to spend another year watching TT "learn", with no certainty?

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Orton and McD are gone RC...time to move on. Enjoy the wins, gramps....it's good for your heart! :D

[rcsodak]

Ah, gotcha. Here we go again with, Tebow does nothing wrong, if there's a problem it must be someone else. All hail Tebow.

In fact, why don't we shut down the discussion board here, and jail anyone who says anything bad about Tebow.

Good work ace.
Some are saying TT's too amped up at the start of the games, nand thats partly why he has such ugly passing numbers.

If thats true, they need to devise a way to amp him down.

I still remember at the kc game. After HT, he was overthrowing BQ on EVERY pass in warmup. It wasnt pretty.

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[rcsodak]

The Jets tried to blitz him on the last drive and he drove it 95 yards on them. Try again.
Lmao. Jets blitz EVERY PLAY!

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[rcsodak]

I usually hate the prevent but in this case the strategy was actually sound. If Marion Barber handn't gone out of bounds there would have been 5-10 seconds left when the broncos got the ball back.
Sorry.....but correlation? :confused:

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[blamkin86]

rcsodak That's an interesting thought I hadn't heard.

I'd love to be behind the scenes and see what the coaches are trying with the kid.

What's getting lost in the teams success is all the changes put in place since the Lions blowout. Might not think much of aspects of our coaching staff, but whoever is working on the game plans gets a gold star from me.

[TimHippo]

Sorry.....but correlation? :confused:

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The prevent can work if done with the right timing. The problem is usually teams go into it way too early leaving alot of time on the clock anyway.

In the Bear game there should have only been 5-10 seconds left on the last drive since the prevent was applied correctly. But for Barber's mistake.

[rcsodak]

Orton and McD are gone RC...time to move on. Enjoy the wins, gramps....it's good for your heart! :D

Gee, G....that was the....*sniff*...nicest post youve directed at me since like....*sniff*...forever....younglady. :luv:

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[aberdien]

I'm sold on giving him the reigns at QB next season. His performance for the rest of this season will determine how confident I am in the Franchise QB aspect.

[BORDERLINE]

Tim Tebow is definitely our FQB. Look he is winning all while improving and getting better each week passing. Is there gonna be some games where he struggles sure but every QB has that happen to him once in a while (Unless your name is Orton).

Our defense is one solid solid group. Another draft where we can use the top picks to strengthen it will be ideal.

Our offense needs a Gronk/Graham TE and one of those scat backs like Spiller or Jaquizz rodgers and we will be a hell of a lot harder to beat. Or at the least have fire power so we won't run into a wall for 3 straight quarters.

This Team is playing Hard with little talent. In the offseason I was saying look at the Bucs/Chiefs/Dolphins(that one year) how they turned around there team in one season. Well we already turned the team around we are winning and with Tebow. This offseason draft defense and let's get better.

Next year don't want to be the BUCS or Chiefs. Our defense is top notch let's re-inforce it. Give Tebow some weapons and then everything else will fall into place.

[igoe4broncos]

Not sure about franchise QB, but he has definitely earned the starting job for next year. He's shown enough improvement through the past couple of weeks that makes me really wonder how good he can become if he has a full off-season and training camp to work with the first team and on his fundamentals.

[rcsodak]

rcsodak That's an interesting thought I hadn't heard.

I'd love to be behind the scenes and see what the coaches are trying with the kid.

What's getting lost in the teams success is all the changes put in place since the Lions blowout. Might not think much of aspects of our coaching staff, but whoever is working on the game plans gets a gold star from me.

Well, i scream at the TV as much as the next guy, every time TT runs up the gut and the back of his OL.
And Fox's conservatiness when they need the length of the football on 4th down, with the #1 rush offense, at the 50, and he punts.

But coming into the season with low expectations has allowed me to sit back, more, and just watch. Laughing aloud at times.

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[NightTerror218]

I am 100% behind TT and really like what he stands for and the energy. But I chose the Yes, as long as he shows improvement. I think if continues to increase his completion percentage and reads defenses then he could be the FQB. But right now its just fun to watch. I want the best player in every position and possibly long term. Whether he can be a long term answer I do not know. But right now he is doing it.

[rcsodak]

The prevent can work if done with the right timing. The problem is usually teams go into it way too early leaving alot of time on the clock anyway.

In the Bear game there should have only been 5-10 seconds left on the last drive since the prevent was applied correctly. But for Barber's mistake.
Ok. But they STILL used it. And it allowed TT to pass them down the field to a TD with 2 mins remaining. And but for 2 denver players both going for the ball, they almost got the onside kick!

Do you believe TT has the same success against their D of the other 55 mins?

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[BroncoWave]

Lmao. Jets blitz EVERY PLAY!

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And he beat them. You aren't really helping your argument here.

[rcsodak]

Tim Tebow is definitely our FQB. Look he is winning all while improving and getting better each week passing. Is there gonna be some games where he struggles sure but every QB has that happen to him once in a while (Unless your name is Orton).

Our defense is one solid solid group. Another draft where we can use the top picks to strengthen it will be ideal.

Our offense needs a Gronk/Graham TE and one of those scat backs like Spiller or Jaquizz rodgers and we will be a hell of a lot harder to beat. Or at the least have fire power so we won't run into a wall for 3 straight quarters.

This Team is playing Hard with little talent. In the offseason I was saying look at the Bucs/Chiefs/Dolphins(that one year) how they turned around there team in one season. Well we already turned the team around we are winning and with Tebow. This offseason draft defense and let's get better.

Next year don't want to be the BUCS or Chiefs. Our defense is top notch let's re-inforce it. Give Tebow some weapons and then everything else will fall into place.
If finding gronks was so ez, everybody would have one. Besides, we DID have a Gronk. :lol:

Football is fickle.
Look at TB/KC now! They were both expected to compete for divisions this yr. Is this team 1 or 2 players away from 4 wins again?

I hope not, but i feel the D is going to be pwned this weekend. And if SD wins, theyre on another patented late run and 1 game back!

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[Jsteve01]

If finding gronks was so ez, everybody would have one. Besides, we DID have a Gronk. :lol:

Football is fickle.
Look at TB/KC now! They were both expected to compete for divisions this yr. Is this team 1 or 2 players away from 4 wins again?

I hope not, but i feel the D is going to be pwned this weekend. And if SD wins, theyre on another patented late run and 1 game back!

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Did you just compare Scheffler to Gronk? let's just check those stats.

ouch, that didn't work out so well for you

http://www.nfl.com/stats/headtohead?player1=SCH095691&player2=GRO135948&player3=null&player4=null&position=tightend&playerOne=Tony+Scheffler&playerTwo=Rob+Gronkowski&playerThree=Select+a+Player...&playerFour=Select+a+Player...

[rcsodak]

And he beat them. You aren't really helping your argument here.

He beat them because the guy on the end didnt play contain, and TT was all about the option.

Now, its less than 10% of the game.

Chi sacked him 5x with pressure/blitz, out of how many dropbacks?

Pretty sure Ditka's a little more learned in the game than you are, no disrespect intended, btb.

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[BORDERLINE]

If finding gronks was so ez, everybody would have one. Besides, we DID have a Gronk. :lol:

Football is fickle.
Look at TB/KC now! They were both expected to compete for divisions this yr. Is this team 1 or 2 players away from 4 wins again?

I hope not, but i feel the D is going to be pwned this weekend. And if SD wins, theyre on another patented late run and 1 game back!

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Our defense is solid. When the analyst say 35+ the Pats are gonna score i ask myself have they seen our defense play? T.O.P will/should keep the score down. Brady isn't just gonna light it up like he has all the time in the world back there with DOOM and VON coming for his noggin.

Finding a Gronk isn't easy you don't have to tell no one that. But i'm sure these scouts Denver has get paid and they should pay extra attention to that position. Tebow needs a TE and a fast azz RB that can turn on the boosters after a pitch running the option.

[BroncoWave]

He beat them because the guy on the end didnt play contain, and TT was all about the option.

Now, its less than 10% of the game.

Chi sacked him 5x with pressure/blitz, out of how many dropbacks?

Pretty sure Ditka's a little more learned in the game than you are, no disrespect intended, btb.

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You must have missed the video from Sunday morning where Ditka was vehemently defending Tebow against Merril Hodge. So yes, he is quite learned about the game and he believes in Tebow. Once again, nice try bro.

[claymore]

I hope Tebow is the dude of the future. Im not getting my hopes up yet. I think his success this year has come from fluke events (no such thing as luck).

If he isnt the man, we are effed for another couple years.

[rcsodak]

Did you just compare Scheffler to Gronk? let's just check those stats.

ouch, that didn't work out so well for you

http://www.nfl.com/stats/headtohead?player1=SCH095691&player2=GRO135948&player3=null&player4=null&position=tightend&playerOne=Tony+Scheffler&playerTwo=Rob+Gronkowski&playerThree=Select+a+Player...&playerFour=Select+a+Player...
Huh? Shef's name never touched my thumbs.

It was a tongue-in-cheek, since we had gronk's brother. Notice the :lol: ?

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[rcsodak]

Our defense is solid. When the analyst say 35+ the Pats are gonna score i ask myself have they seen our defense play? T.O.P will/should keep the score down. Brady isn't just gonna light it up like he has all the time in the world back there with DOOM and VON coming for his noggin.

Finding a Gronk isn't easy you don't have to tell no one that. But i'm sure these scouts Denver has get paid and they should pay extra attention to that position. Tebow needs a TE and a fast azz RB that can turn on the boosters after a pitch running the option.
I think youre fogetting all the yards this D gave up to a 3gm rookie in Ponder, and rushing yards to their 2nd yr rb who averaged a whole yard MORE than he had coming in.

And having just drafted 2 TE's this year makes me think thats a position they WONT be picking.

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[GEM]

Gee, G....that was the....*sniff*...nicest post youve directed at me since like....*sniff*...forever....younglady. :luv:

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:D You're welcome! :love:

[Shazam!]

OH YES.

He will only get better with an entire offseason and better chemistry.

I have been waiting for the QB of the future and the future face of the franchise for over a decade now.

He has made the Broncos LITERALLY a national phenomenon.

I am so proud of Tim Tebow and my team right now.

I am happy to be a Broncos fan again.

I've had the first enjoyable season in YEARS.

If you still don't believe Tim is the Chosen One to lead this team, you need help.

[TimHippo]

He has made the Broncos LITERALLY a national phenomenon.
.

Yup. I dunno how this ends but this is blowing up like the 85 Bears in terms of national media exposure and popularity. It's great exposure for the game, especially for the international markets.

[wayninja]

Ah, gotcha. Here we go again with, Tebow does nothing wrong, if there's a problem it must be someone else. All hail Tebow.

In fact, why don't we shut down the discussion board here, and jail anyone who says anything bad about Tebow.

Good work ace.

Who said Tebow does nothing wrong? I just pointed out that there were no drops in the 4th quarter. Something that might, I dunno, sustain a drive?

Don't get all butthurt now.

[wayninja]

I'm fairly sure Tebow knows the rules of the game.

I'll remember that the next time we get our per-game delay of game penalty.

[BORDERLINE]

I think youre fogetting all the yards this D gave up to a 3gm rookie in Ponder, and rushing yards to their 2nd yr rb who averaged a whole yard MORE than he had coming in.

And having just drafted 2 TE's this year makes me think thats a position they WONT be picking.

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No I haven't forgot about that game or the Lions game for that matter. But we still got a W out if it right. Tom Brady is gonna hit on his throws no doubt but I just believe DOOM and Von will not give him the luxury of picking where to go with the ball. He will already have made up his mind by the time the ball is snapped because our pass rush will get to him. Welker is gonna be his main target shut him down and make Brady force the ball somewhere else.

[dogfish]

i'm in. . .


:defense:

[Locnar]

I renamed my cat Tebow after the Bears win.

[bcbronc]

I'm not sure. Too soon to decide he's the man of the future when we're winning games putting up 13-18 points. He's looking better and better each week though and he's earned the #1 job next season no matter how the rest of this season and the draft pan out.

[Scarface]

Tebow's our guy without a doubt, imo.

[Joel]

I'm not convinced yet.

Here is why.

We have seen many QBs like him, even if some want to say otherwise.

Vick is faster, a better runner, and has a stronger arm. He wasn't considered a good passer coming out of college and they limited his reads as much as possible, and he led the Falcons to the playoffs his first year as the starter. His name was even in the list for NFL MVP. The game caught up in a hurry, and Vick had to rely on his passing to win. True, Vick isn't as big as Tebow is...but other than that, a ton of parallels.
We have not seen many QBs like Tebow; the Int numbers compared to the first few seasons from the other guys you mentioned should prove that. I loathe Michael Vick, but you can't deny the ability is there. He's not just the only QB to rush for 1000 yards, he's also a darned good passer. That's from someone who's been watching and wanting him to fail ever since he got out of prison. If he weren't a legit passer he wouldn't stay employed.

The big difference (apart from the fact he's been around longer and progressed more as a passer) is attitude: Vick tortures animals to death for fun and profit (not that he needs the latter) then complains the refs don't give him calls; Tebow is the first to admit his deficiencies, works hard to overcome them and praises everyone but himself and the waterboy when we win.

Tebow can become as good a runner AND passer as Vick is, and be a lot less detestable doing it.


Vince Young. As good of an athlete as Tebow, as big as Tebow, as good of a runner as Tebow, and a bit better passer than Tebow is. We had posters on here telling us that it didn't matter that he couldn't pass the football, just look at his W/L record (silk). He excelled when the Titans defense was STUD under Fisher. But once the defense came back down a bit, and the offense had to rely more on him passing the ball, so did the wins and his play.
I lived in Austin throughout Vince Youngs college career; he's not a better passer than Tebow despite being in the League longer. Most people blame that on work ethic, which I think a fair assessment: I was never among those that questioned his intelligence, and was convinced he had the skills to become a good passer. The difference he hasn't worked for it the way Tebow is doing, probably because he never had to in college; even in the national championship game against USC he was just good ENOUGH with his arm, winning the game with a long RUN at the end. I think he became convinced he didn't need to pass in the NFL because he rarely had to in college, and that since he was already a good enough runner without any extra work he was NFL ready. Guess not.

I'm still hopeful he's learned his lesson and will put in the effort to become better with his arm (he was a LOT less accurate his first few pro years than Tebow is and, again, when he was starting in Tennessee we got as many Titans games in Austin as we did Texans and Cowboys.) The same goes for his draft classmate Matt Leinart, who reportedly suffered the same failings when he entered the League. The difference, once again, is that Tebow is already putting in that effort and it's already paying dividends. That probably explains why 2008 (when he only started once) was the only time he had less Ints in a SEASON than Tebows had in his CAREER.


Now I'm not talking about off field, mental stuff. Tebow is an AMAZING person that no-one can ever root against. You have to be a fool to not like this guy, and I can honestly say that I'm a BIG Tebow fan, as a person and as a Bronco!! But as a QB, his passing is bad. How many bad passers have we seen become "good passers" once they reach the NFL??
Quite a few, actually. Just to take a recent example, Alex Smith has done pretty well the past three years despite being written off as a draft bust before that. The odds are against it because it requires a good supporting cast on the field, good coaching, a supportive front office and, most of all, disciplined diligence as much as talent from the QB. Without those other assets even the best hardest working QB is usually doomed from the start (and without the hard work even the Ryan Leafs and Matt Leinarts fail.) Precious few rookie or even second year QBs are pro ready; some of the best have been known to do ridiculous things like line up behind guard to take the snap.

So I'm not convinced, but would love it if Tebow can become everything that people wish him to be, because he would be a FANTASTIC person to have lead our team.
He's got the talent and the intelligence, as well as the mentors he needs; the character should translate that into a fine passer soon. It's already resulted in HUGE improvements.

I'm not sold on Tebow as the franchise QB just yet, but I'm 80% sold. He's nearing a level where whether he improves in the off season will be moot: He'll already be good enough to be a franchise QB, and only need slight improvement to be a great one. Apart from footwork (which definitely needs improvement but is very teachable,) the main thing he lacks now isn't accuracy or even good decisions, but making the latter at game speed. His field vision isn't good enough to see all the open receivers all the time, he gets through his progressions, but takes too long doing it, and he eats more sacks than he should when progression breaks down faster than he expects. A lot of that boils down to the fact Brian Urlacher doesn't pull up like guys in practice.

If he and the team finish the season strong I'll be on board with Tebow as our franchise QB, and I'm already on board to the extent I see no other likely options in the near future. If Tebow doesn't work out we'll have to settle for throwing Quinn out there next year (if we can even re-sign him) and hoping we suck so badly we can when the draft lottery in 2013. Meanwhile, we'll still need those first round picks to spend on other positions where we desperately need help.

[Joel]

Elway didn't want T2 to succeed from day one.

What are you talking about?

I'm not even going into that topic anymore with you niave folk.
Then don't bring it up. While we're at it, here are a few other "don'ts:"

Don't defend Tebow on a Broncos site by bashing Elway.

Don't defend Romo on a Cowboys site by bashing Staubach.

Don't defend Alex Smith on a '9ers site by bashing Montana.

Don't defend Matt Moore on a Dolphins site by bashing Marino.

"Ego," indeed. I like the kid, but he hasn't even played a dozen games; Elway started 5 Super Bowls. He's not trying to submarine Tebow, but even if he were, guess who has more credibility in Broncoland, and probably always will. Tebow could have a HoF career and win 3 Super Bowls and, statistically, he'd STILL be the SECOND BEST Broncos QB. Of course, right now he hasn't even won a playoff game.

[Flex040679]

YES I'm sold

I hated the draft pick but when the team rallied around him last year in those 3 games I was SOLD then... TRUE LEADERs are hard to find... we have one in #15 and they better not let him go or he'll haunt us for the rest of his career

[Joel]

Our defense is solid. When the analyst say 35+ the Pats are gonna score i ask myself have they seen our defense play? T.O.P will/should keep the score down. Brady isn't just gonna light it up like he has all the time in the world back there with DOOM and VON coming for his noggin.

Finding a Gronk isn't easy you don't have to tell no one that. But i'm sure these scouts Denver has get paid and they should pay extra attention to that position. Tebow needs a TE and a fast azz RB that can turn on the boosters after a pitch running the option.
Our D is NOT solid, man, sorry. I love 'em to death and they've played their hearts out, but our secondary is a 33 year old Pro Bowler, a former Pro Bowler who's played safety longer than anyone in League history, a guy who needs a pick nearly every week to make up for getting burned by third stringers all game, and [your crappy rookie here.] Our DTs are merely adequate; they just look solid compared to the Swiss cheese we've had there since Keith Traylor bailed for the Ravens.

What I'd like more than anything is guards who can open gaping holes in the way for which Denvers guards used to be famous; without those all the speedy RBs and TEs in the world won't matter.

No I haven't forgot about that game or the Lions game for that matter. But we still got a W out if it right. Tom Brady is gonna hit on his throws no doubt but I just believe DOOM and Von will not give him the luxury of picking where to go with the ball. He will already have made up his mind by the time the ball is snapped because our pass rush will get to him.
No, they won't, unless we bring the house and leave lots of guys open for the Pats patented quick passes. Their offensive line is darned good. Miller has a shot against a fellow rookie at RT, but Brian Waters will probably be helping out at RG. Matt Light and Logan Mankins between them should be able to handle Doom pretty well.
Welker is gonna be his main target shut him down and make Brady force the ball somewhere else. Welker will be covered by Champ and I don't think Brady is stupid or arrogant enough to throw at a Pro Bowler when he can shred Goodman all day long and/or test DJ against Gronkowski and/or Harris against Chad Johnson. That's assuming Goodman even plays after his concussion last week; otherwise we'll have Harris on Deion Branch and heaven knows whom on Johnson. We'll probably take Welker out of the game for most of it; still won't matter.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

In prevent.
Ditka says if you want to squash his late heroics, you blitz him.

Hard to disagree with him, and nobody can figure out why chi gave him the passing game.

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You mean like the Jets did the entire last drive where he led the offense to a 95 yard game winning TD? Sure, you blitz him and he'll just pull it down and run for 5-10 yards a pop. You drop into coverage and he'll buy time with his legs and find one of the 5 available targets. You really don't watch, I mean really watch the dynamics, of those late in the 4th drives, do you?

Hell yeah I'm onboard with this guy. Heart, determination, leadership, composure, poise, and good enough to beat you with his arm or his legs? You mean I can have it all?

I've seen guys once again comparing him to Mike Vick or Vince Young. There is NO COMPARISON. It's common knowledge that both players (admittedly in Vick's case) were lazy and not willing to put in the effort to get better, watch film, or work on their passing accuracy/timing with their WRs. They also allowed themselves (like most young NFL players who have success early) to concern themselves with, and get distracted by all the other stuff.

I just don't see Tebow being the type guy who really values partying, contracts, money, endorsements, etc, etc, etc and will allow those things to distract him from his commitment to the team. Does anyone see Tebow ever being a guy who will show up late or leave early? How about a guy who gets pulled over for a suspected DUI or traffic stop at 2 AM? Perhaps getting caught with a water bottle with traces of marijuana or checking into a hotel with a nasty skank ho under the name of "Ron Mexico" and then giving the chick an STD is more Tim's style? I also don't see him getting in a confrontation with his coaches, getting benched, and then throwing his pads into the stands...

Yep, he's my guy. He's a great football player and a great human being. Someday, he'll be a great QB. I believe.

[rcsodak]

You mean like the Jets did the entire last drive where he led the offense to a 95 yard game winning TD? Sure, you blitz him and he'll just pull it down and run for 5-10 yards a pop. You drop into coverage and he'll buy time with his legs and find one of the 5 available targets. You really don't watch, I mean really watch the dynamics, of those late in the 4th drives, do you?

Hell yeah I'm onboard with this guy. Heart, determination, leadership, composure, poise, and good enough to beat you with his arm or his legs? You mean I can have it all?

I've seen guys once again comparing him to Mike Vick or Vince Young. There is NO COMPARISON. It's common knowledge that both players (admittedly in Vick's case) were lazy and not willing to put in the effort to get better, watch film, or work on their passing accuracy/timing with their WRs. They also allowed themselves (like most young NFL players who have success early) to concern themselves with, and get distracted by all the other stuff.

I just don't see Tebow being the type guy who really values partying, contracts, money, endorsements, etc, etc, etc and will allow those things to distract him from his commitment to the team. Does anyone see Tebow ever being a guy who will show up late or leave early? How about a guy who gets pulled over for a suspected DUI or traffic stop at 2 AM? Perhaps getting caught with a water bottle with traces of marijuana or checking into a hotel with a nasty skank ho under the name of "Ron Mexico" and then giving the chick an STD is more Tim's style? I also don't see him getting in a confrontation with his coaches, getting benched, and then throwing his pads into the stands...

Yep, he's my guy. He's a great football player and a great human being. Someday, he'll be a great QB. I believe.
Again, funny how he wasnt able to do anything UNTIL chi went from man and pressure to playing off and not pressuring.

The nyj gm was totally different as they were more option than now. And ryans too arrogant to change.

Guaeantee belichik wont let up.

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[Nomad]

Not sure yet. Most QB's dont hit full stride until year 3 anyway.

I'm not sure yet either. Big test Sunday to play against one of the elite teams......I believe the BRONCOS get 'Bradyed'.

[wayninja]

Again, funny how he wasnt able to do anything UNTIL chi went from man and pressure to playing off and not pressuring.

The nyj gm was totally different as they were more option than now. And ryans too arrogant to change.

Guaeantee belichik wont let up.

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You keep saying this yet keep dismissing 6 dropped passes (33%). Seriously, why? It's not Miaimi where he was making silly throws, so what's up with toeing this line over and over?

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Again, funny how he wasnt able to do anything UNTIL chi went from man and pressure to playing off and not pressuring.

The nyj gm was totally different as they were more option than now. And ryans too arrogant to change.

Guaeantee belichik wont let up.

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We also changed our offensive scheme to a 5 wide, hurry-up, no-huddle which prevented the Bears from subbing players in and out... Tebow and the rest of the offense thrives in that. One of the biggest gripes of the fans is that we don't use it more often. We don't play with a sense of urgency until we absolutely have to. We try to establish the run, control the clock, play good defense, and try to keep the field position battle in our favor. All these things keep turnovers down and keep the games tight.

Did you not watch the Minnesota game? When we need to move the ball and get a quick score, the offense came through. Same as in the Raiders game. The other games, except Miami, we were never down by more than 10 points and so there was no "panic" or undue pressure to just go out and get reckless trying to score.

What's better, playing your game, even when down a score, or getting panicky and turning the ball over because you give up on your game plan? Both Shanahan and McDaniels were guilty of getting nervous when the team would get behind and they'd start to abandon the run which allowed the opposing defense to tee off on the QB, forced ints, and got sacks which forced fumbles.

Even though people think our offense is "boring" or antiquated in today's high-scoring, pass-happy NFL, it actually is exactly what our team needs right now. How successful have we been the last 2 years trying to "shoot it out" with everyone? We have a young O-line, everyone knows the way you help them is to run the ball and let them attack the defense vice putting them on their heels and passing all the time. We have a young QB. Everyone knows the way to help a young QB is to run the ball to set up play action and not put everything on his shoulders. We have a mostly young defense operating a new scheme with new coaches. How do you make a defense more effective? Give them a rest and keep them fresh by running the ball, controlling the clock, and help them with field position.

We'll see on Sunday. You're absolutely convinced that the Pats are going to mop the floor with us. I'm not so sure. Win or lose, I think it's going to be closer than you think...

[dogfish]

You keep saying this yet keep dismissing 6 dropped passes (33%). Seriously, why? It's not Miaimi where he was making silly throws, so what's up with toeing this line over and over?

because he's stuck in this stupid cycle of alternately loving and hating our QBs, ever since jake plummer. . .

he resented cutler for replacing his boi jake. . . despised jay, in fact-- rc gloated openly when the sawed-off douchebag shipped cutler out, and immediately gravitated to jay's replacement, the neckbeard. . . and he now resents tim for replacing orton, and will bash him as long as he's here. . .


cute, huh?

[sneakers]

Step 1: Collect Tebow
Step 2: ????
Step 3: Profit.

[BORDERLINE]

Our D is NOT solid, man, sorry. I love 'em to death and they've played their hearts out, but

Come on Joel,

Our defense is very solid. While we don't have a solid DT to plug the middle, Bunkley is actually doing a better job than I expected. They are playing at a high level aside from the Vikes games they kept it close but they actually sealed the game with the pick.

I wasn't a fan of Dawk coming back but with this improved pass rush and also not being on the field for most of the game he is more fresh late in games.

Champ's age get's thrown out the window He is still top 3 CB in the game. This years draft should focus on defense there's always room for improvement.

[NameUsedBefore]

I bought into Tebow last year. The reason I want him as the starting QB is pretty simple, really. I don't want Denver to draft another QB in the first round. The nonsense needs to end. We can't be the Detroit Lions of drafting first-round QBs. Even if he's just a mediocre passer, that's fine. People always look at the best -- Brady, Brees etc. -- and think that's what they gotta have. Gibberish. Tebow doesn't turn the ball over, manages the game well, and comes up in the 4th quarter. That's easily good enough to win a Superbowl. And holy shit if this guy becomes a good passer. He will turn into a one man force of nature on the field and a super dominant player no doubt. Keeping him is an easy bet to make, for me anyway.

[BroncoBJ]

I like Tebow a lot, and really do hope he becomes the future of this team, and if we keep winning, it will be hard to think otherwise. I'm happy that I've seen him progress though. The Dolphins game and the Lions game were pretty terrible performances by him. But other then that, I really think hes been good the past 6 weeks.

I do think he should be the QB of next year, and we shouldn't go after a QB early next year. If he gets better next year and has a deep playoff run, then I might think hes the clear cut QB of the future. But so far, I'm enjoying his time here. :elefant:

[sneakers]

Elway didn't want T2 to succeed from day one.

What are you talking about?

I'm not even going into that topic anymore with you niave folk.

Good. Then don't bring it up.

[Joel]

Come on Joel,

Our defense is very solid. While we don't have a solid DT to plug the middle, Bunkley is actually doing a better job than I expected. They are playing at a high level aside from the Vikes games they kept it close but they actually sealed the game with the pick.

I wasn't a fan of Dawk coming back but with this improved pass rush and also not being on the field for most of the game he is more fresh late in games.

Champ's age get's thrown out the window He is still top 3 CB in the game. This years draft should focus on defense there's always room for improvement.
I don't see it. Sure, Dawkins is great against the run, and does OK blitzing, both of which would be great--if we had anyone at all to help Champ in the secondary. He's still an elite CB, but his age does not get thrown out the window: He's human just like everyone else, and the days when he could come off a teams #1 WR and cross the field for a pick on the #2 are gone. Yet it's almost necessary because Goodman gets destroyed every single week, despite redeeming himself a couple times with picks. He definitely strikes me as a guy who plays the ball rather than the man, which would be fine if he were putting up Revis type numbers instead of only 2 picks this season. The rest of our secondary consists of rookies, of which the only one who seems worth keeping right now is Harris. Brady will light those guys up like a pinball machine on Sunday.

Bunkley has played very well at DT, and the reduced pressure has certainly benefited Thomas, but neither of those guys are great. Ayers is steady but generally unremarkable at DE; Doom is the only real star in our front four. Mays is similarly adequate at MLB, though he gets a lot of help from DJ, who's been all over the field this season even more than usual. We have Champ, Miller, DJ, Doom and Dawkins plus a bunch of adequate guys rounding out the front seven and gaping holes in our secondary. This is not a great D, it's an above average D overperforming its current skill level thanks in no small part to a few key stars, two of whom are aging rapidly.

[wayninja]

Elway didn't want T2 to succeed from day one.

What are you talking about?

I'm not even going into that topic anymore with you niave folk.

T2?

I think you are confused. It's John Connor that didn't want T2 to succed, not John Elway.

[TimHippo]

Here's an interesting question.

Would you take Von Miller over Andrew Luck/RG3 if you had the number 1 pick this year and Miller was in this years draft.

This assumes you already know what Miller can do based on this year's performance and you also have Tebow's evaluation up to today.

[Joel]

Here's an interesting question.

Would you take Von Miller over Andrew Luck/RG3 if you had the number 1 pick this year and Miller was in this years draft.

This assumes you already know what Miller can do based on this year's performance and you also have Tebow's evaluation up to today.
Yes; 1 good QB+1 potential HoF LB>1 good QB+1 ? QB. Or, 1 somewhat unknown QB+1 potential HoF LB>2 somewhat unknown QBs. Unless the QB who doesn't start at QB racks up a dozen sacks, take Miller and Tebow.

[Timmy!]

No. Not yet. I'm pleased with his progress and he has that special it factor. He has gone gone from pretty horrible throwing to adequate. Honestly nothing I see this year is going to answer the question. I need to see table after a real off season with hopefully a little more offensive talent around him with defenses having all that extra time to prepare for him as well. Week 10 next year I can answer, till then I'm gonna enjoy this rde

[BroncoNut]

I'm not sure yet. I just don't know how long this can last. I love his attitude and what he stands for. He is an excellent role model and a winner.

If we don't play him next year I won't be a happy camper. If he continues to improve over the off season and into next year then I may change my mind.

I voted yes if he continues to improve. basically what D1B says here. I guess if one's going to put the onus on the qb as the ultimate producer of wins, I guess I'd like to see him putting some points up earlier or at least eating up more clock. Now, imo, the last game there were some passes that should have been caught earlier on in the Bears game , so he is creating that opportunity imo. I'm a bit concerned about his timing in finding and hitting the open receiver. He had plenty of time on a number of occasions to evaluate the field last sunday. His patience is great there, but let's execute some calls. If there isn't improvement in those areas, it's just a matter of time before this gameplan is countered. I don't see that happening, but it's really that simple. Thanks for reading this post and have a great day

[MileHighCrew]

I so want to be, but I'm just not sure yet. It is a fun season though, no doubt about that

[artie_dale]

How can you not if he continues to improve? These WR's have GOTTA catch those balls. Those were easy ones. Sometimes, a WR has a hard time catching a ball if he can't gauge the velocity of the pass. Tebow is a strong mofo and thought they are dead ducks, they are coming in with force. Those WR's have no excuse still. They are grown men who get paid an awful lot to catch. Hopefully, they work that out for the NE game. I'm confident it's going to be a good game. I hope I'm not wrong.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Here's an interesting question.

Would you take Von Miller over Andrew Luck/RG3 if you had the number 1 pick this year and Miller was in this years draft.

This assumes you already know what Miller can do based on this year's performance and you also have Tebow's evaluation up to today.

Yes.

[catfish]

No, he has earned the right to start next year...nothing more. Next year will be when the decision on franchise or not shold be made

[Chef Zambini]

But realistically I don't see what they could trade up to move up to top 5-10 to pick RG3 or Luck or Barkley besides Von Miller. You would have to send a boatload of draft picks that would mortgage the future.

I think that ship has passed in drafting a marquee QB next year.

I'm not even sold on Barkley considering how USC QBs have faired lately coming out of a supposed Pro Set. You look at Sanchez and Leinart and they are nothing special. Carson Palmer is probably the most successful and he wasn't even worth keeping around in Cincinnati.my friend, they can trade TEBOW to jacksonville for their first pick and from there get RG3 or any other QB that JE desires.

[Chef Zambini]

I am like ELWAY on the tebow phenomenon.
NOT SOLD YET!
TT is like joan of arc.
I answered YES if he can win a game in the play-offs! if WE, the entire bronco team, can get to the play-offs and win a game, then I must consider TT a legitimate candidate as a QB to build this team around.
If JE ends up draFTING a QB,I will support that decision.

[socalthunder]

I am like ELWAY on the tebow phenomenon.
NOT SOLD YET!
TT is like joan of arc.
I answered YES if he can win a game in the play-offs! if WE, the entire bronco team, can get to the play-offs and win a game, then I must consider TT a legitimate candidate as a QB to build this team around.
If JE ends up draFTING a QB,I will support that decision.

Hey Zam - what's your opinion on whether or not McD should get some credit for drafting Tim? Also, I need some help with making some turkey stock. TIA.

[Chef Zambini]

Hey Zam - what's your opinion on whether or not McD should get some credit for drafting Tim? Also, I need some help with making some turkey stock. TIA.I give JMCD for being an arrogant idiot! he drafted TT so he could prove to the world how brilliant he was at molding TT into a proto-typical NFL QB ! MORON ! instead of using the talents that TT already had in his arsenal, he sought to change everything about TT, again I say moron ! BB sent us JMCD... figure it out !
as for ther turkey stock, I will post one in the cooking thread if I can find one hear, otherwise i will start one.

[Chef Zambini]

Turkey stock:
start with the biggest turkey you can find.
my suggestion, josh mcdaniels.

[BORDERLINE]

I don't see it. Sure, Dawkins is great against the run, and does OK blitzing, both of which would be great--if we had anyone at all to help Champ in the secondary. He's still an elite CB, but his age does not get thrown out the window: He's human just like everyone else, and the days when he could come off a teams #1 WR and cross the field for a pick on the #2 are gone. Yet it's almost necessary because Goodman gets destroyed every single week, despite redeeming himself a couple times with picks. He definitely strikes me as a guy who plays the ball rather than the man, which would be fine if he were putting up Revis type numbers instead of only 2 picks this season. The rest of our secondary consists of rookies, of which the only one who seems worth keeping right now is Harris. Brady will light those guys up like a pinball machine on Sunday.

Bunkley has played very well at DT, and the reduced pressure has certainly benefited Thomas, but neither of those guys are great. Ayers is steady but generally unremarkable at DE; Doom is the only real star in our front four. Mays is similarly adequate at MLB, though he gets a lot of help from DJ, who's been all over the field this season even more than usual. We have Champ, Miller, DJ, Doom and Dawkins plus a bunch of adequate guys rounding out the front seven and gaping holes in our secondary. This is not a great D, it's an above average D overperforming its current skill level thanks in no small part to a few key stars, two of whom are aging rapidly.

Ayers definitely has not lived up to what we wanted him to be that's for sure. The DT position is playing a whole of a lot better than with J.Williams and Bannan that's for sure. Mays is a good run stopping LB but ask him to move and the dude is slow. DJ is played one of his best games last week ever. I say a FA or 2 plus a draft pick to shore this LB corp up.

Our secondary is old. Moore and Carter will have to step it up to take over the reigns once Dawk is gone. I see us drafting a CB plus signing a FA to help out Bailey. Syd will be back next year and he showed some promise. Chris Harris hands down is playing great. I didn't think much of him the first couple of games he played but he has played inspired during this winning streak.

The reason I believe they are solid is because they are keeping the score down during this winning streak minus the vikes game. Some switch got flipped in their head and these dudes are balling right now. I know Brady is one of the most formidable QB's if not the most in NFL. I just see Doom and Von getting to him. And I believe if the Pats do stop them the inside DL will win their one on one matchup and Brady will have a tuff time to finding all his targets.

[chazoe60]

I disagree about Ayers. Ayers isn't flashy and he doesn't get a lot of sacks but he's been a mainstay on our DL this season and he is very good against the rush.

People really are missing the boat on Ayers, he's played very well.

[Joel]

I am like ELWAY on the tebow phenomenon.
NOT SOLD YET!
TT is like joan of arc.
A heaven sent leader unstoppable unless those he loyally serves betray and abandon him to tortuous death at the hands of those who hate and falsely accuse him? Maybe; have any Saints (outside NO) spoken to him? :tongue:

[Ravage!!!]

A heaven sent leader unstoppable unless those he loyally serves betray and abandon him to tortuous death at the hands of those who hate and falsely accuse him? Maybe; have any Saints (outside NO) spoken to him? :tongue:

Yes, John Elway.

That, and I hear he talks to himself in the shower. So thats two, right there.

[jhildebrand]

Wondering where Bronco Nation stands right about now.

I know we all WANT Tim to be the man, but how many are sold on him at this point?

Poll coming.

I am sold on him being the starter for the remainder of the year and going into next year. Depending on how that works out-especially the next year part-is where I am at.

[jhildebrand]

I disagree about Ayers. Ayers isn't flashy and he doesn't get a lot of sacks but he's been a mainstay on our DL this season and he is very good against the rush.

People really are missing the boat on Ayers, he's played very well.

Not to mention D line usually takes three seasons in this league to get real results. Ngata took a bit. Suggs did. Pierre Paul who went to an already stacked line took time. Dorsey in KC was about to be labeled a bust.

Ayers had the misfortune of McNumbnuts placing him in a different position than where he should have been.

He is looking pretty good. Marcus Thomas, too!!!!!

[Slick]

my friend, they can trade TEBOW to jacksonville for their first pick and from there get RG3 or any other QB that JE desires.

What if RGIII turns into Akili Smith?

That would be absolutely idiotic. No way Elway gambles like that.

[Dzone]

Came across old video of drunk Jerry Jones saying he would never draft Tebow and Tebow would never get on the field. Wonder what he thinks now. haha
http://deadspin.com/5516297/slurring-jerry-jones-bad+mouths-bill-parcells-tim-tebow

[Ravage!!!]

Came across old video of drunk Jerry Jones saying he would never draft Tebow and Tebow would never get on the field. Wonder what he thinks now. haha
http://deadspin.com/5516297/slurring-jerry-jones-bad+mouths-bill-parcells-tim-tebow

Probably thinks the same thing. Although, he would see more money signs when looking at Tebow, now.

[Joel]

Ayers definitely has not lived up to what we wanted him to be that's for sure. The DT position is playing a whole of a lot better than with J.Williams and Bannan that's for sure. Mays is a good run stopping LB but ask him to move and the dude is slow. DJ is played one of his best games last week ever. I say a FA or 2 plus a draft pick to shore this LB corp up.
I like Mays' speed; I've seen him run down a LOT of plays and make good tackles, both in the running and passing game. What I DISLIKE are his hands and his reads: It's good he can cross half the field and stop a receiver DEAD after a 7 yard reception, or finish off a runner after a 5 yard carry off tackle. However, to be an elite Mike he needs to diagnose that pass BEFORE the ball is in the air (it's easy afterward) and make a pick, and get to the hole BEFORE the runner to throw him back for a loss. That's really the only thing missing from our LBs, but it's huge, which is why I'd like to see Miller take over the Mike spot if he can quickly gain the necessary experience and coverage skills. Then we can stick hulking Mario Haggan at Sam PLAYING like a Sam, where his poor hands and lesser speed won't be a liability and his 270+ lbs. will be a big asset.

Ayers, well, Ayers plays like a tweener, which is what he is and all we can expect. He's a much better 4-3 LDE than 3-4 OLB, but I think we all knew that even before McDumbass made him the latter. Get a guy like Jamal Williams in his prime and our 3-4 impersonating a 4-3 instantly gets MUCH better, though upgrading Ayers to a 3-4 DE and replacing Mays with a pure ILB wouldn't hurt. In that set DJ could probably handle the primary pass coverage duties even with Mays starting, but if not Woodyard would be a decent ILB alongside DJ if he could add 10-15 lbs. without losing much speed. The big disappointment so far has been Thomas, who's finally healthy but still not dominating as we expected when we drafted him (remember, he FELL to the 4th round because of off the field issues, but he sure looks like a 4th round DT NOW.) Upgrading him might make Bunkley shine a little more (or maybe he's playing better than I think and making him shine already; a stud DT would settle the matter decisively either way, though it's not my top priority as long as those two remain adequate.)


Our secondary is old. Moore and Carter will have to step it up to take over the reigns once Dawk is gone. I see us drafting a CB plus signing a FA to help out Bailey. Syd will be back next year and he showed some promise. Chris Harris hands down is playing great. I didn't think much of him the first couple of games he played but he has played inspired during this winning streak.
Our secondary is a mixture of very old, good and untalented; Goodman and Moore could be its face because they each represent 2/3 of those qualities. Maybe the rookies improve with an unlocked out offseason around Champ and Dawkins (if he doesn't retire.) I hope so, because Dawkins has one more year left AT MOST (how many 40 year old pro safeties have you seen?) and Goodman is wretched; even with his pick six a few weeks ago he's still scored several times as many points for the wrong teams. Right now, Harris is the only one other than Champ and Dawkins in whom I have any faith at all, but he's still young and it still shows too often.

The reason I believe they are solid is because they are keeping the score down during this winning streak minus the vikes game. Some switch got flipped in their head and these dudes are balling right now. I know Brady is one of the most formidable QB's if not the most in NFL. I just see Doom and Von getting to him. And I believe if the Pats do stop them the inside DL will win their one on one matchup and Brady will have a tuff time to finding all his targets.
Anything's possible, but if you want sacks from our DTs look to Ryan McBean, 'cos he has 4 and the rest have NONE. At that, McBean's a good player, but having first heard about him, not because of his play, but because of this: http://www.baltimoresun.com/kdvr-broncos-player-ryan-mcbean-arrested-for-stalking-20111017,0,2109759.story I'm a little, shall we say, "gunshy" of him. :tsk: In fairness, he was released, and the Denver DA stated, "new information did not support the allegation" but I'm still not fully reassured; innocent until proven guilty, but "unsupported"=/="false."

Anyway, if Doom and Miller get to Brady without needing four or five guys to run interference, that would be great, but I'm not holding my breath. Watch three time Pro Bowler Matt Light play pattycake with Doom for a couple hours, then you tell me; I'll be overjoyed to eat my words. Miller has a good shot getting by Solder if Bunkley and injury prevent Waters bailing him out, but otherwise our front four will need help getting to Brady; I don't expect the Pats' offensive line to have more trouble with the fifth top ten blitzing team they've faced than they did with the first four.

Our D is playing above its ability, but it's also keeping the score down against some pretty bad offenses. San Diego's the best at #8 overall, then Oakland at #12 (remember, they had McFadden their first seven games, but not when we beat them.) Minnesota's actually the third best offense we faced, middle of the pack at 16th (once again, they had Peterson for the first half of their season, but not against us.) Chicago's 21st (but lacked the NFLs top rusher against us) and Miami and NY are 24th and 25th (to put that in perspective, WE'RE 23rd.) Rounding things out are the Chiefs at 23rd.
http://tinyurl.com/cv7adm9
The Pats are ranked 2nd overall. We have not faced an offense REMOTELY like this one; we beat the Chargers because Champ took out Vincent Jackson, DJ held Gates to 47 yards (and 1 TD) and they had NOTHING else (as a Cowboys fan, I have no idea where Patrick Crayton, but don't care now.) The Pats have offensive weapons coming out their, um, "backfield." This will be a shootout or a blowout; either way I expect few sacks; I'll be happy if Miller disrupts things enough when we rush four or five that it forces them to keep a TE to block. The Pats are only 9th best in allowing QB hits, so we might jostle Brady and mess up his rhythm, but sacks? If we have 3 it'll match their worst (two) games all year. Hopefully Miller can have another field day against the Chiefs and get the record because, although I don't follow them, the Bills evidently protect their QB well also.
http://tinyurl.com/d24yzv3

This is a game we'll have to win on offense, because all we can hope to do on defence is slow the (arterial) bleeding.

[Joel]

Yes, John Elway.

That, and I hear he talks to himself in the shower. So thats two, right there.
So if Tebows the virgin leader and Elway's Charles VII (was DELIBERATELY not going there :tsk:) who's this guy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_de_Dunois
I sense a poll in our near future: "Who's the biggest b-----d of all the Tebow haters?" :tongue:

[tebowtime5502]

I give JMCD for being an arrogant idiot! he drafted TT so he could prove to the world how brilliant he was at molding TT into a proto-typical NFL QB ! MORON ! instead of using the talents that TT already had in his arsenal, he sought to change everything about TT, again I say moron ! BB sent us JMCD... figure it out !
as for ther turkey stock, I will post one in the cooking thread if I can find one hear, otherwise i will start one.

One could argue that the defense is vastly improved, while the offense has regressed in some areas. Obviously not crunch time, which is the most important time.

Tebow would be great no matter what.

McD wasn't perfect, but neither is any coach in the league. Point being, he saw the talent and he took Tebow higher than ANY analyst expected ANY team to take him. KUDOS to McD.

[Agent of Orange]

Define "franchise QB".

If you're asking whether he should be entrenched as the starter going into next year, yes. If you're asking whether they should draft a QB in the 1st, the answer is no. It's not even a possibility anyway given where Denver would likely be drafting.

[artie_dale]

One could argue that the defense is vastly improved, while the offense has regressed in some areas. Obviously not crunch time, which is the most important time.

Tebow would be great no matter what.

McD wasn't perfect, but neither is any coach in the league. Point being, he saw the talent and he took Tebow higher than ANY analyst expected ANY team to take him. KUDOS to McD.

I have to scratch my head on this one. So, he saw and utilized talent in Tom Brady and Matt Cassell? Saw more talent in Matt Cassell than he saw in Jay Cutler (did he even look?)? Saw all the talent in Tebow but never had a chance to expose it? But didn't see any talent in Marshall, Sheffler or Hillis? Josh McDaniels is a baffoon. The way he ran things, if he had any sense, he could have drafted Tebow with any one of our 2nd round picks and we could have drafted more players. Still, no credit goes to McDaniels. He jumped the gun and gave up a lot to go back into the late first round. Nobody was going to draft Tebow before McCoy. Dumb luck if you ask me.

[tebowtime5502]

I have to scratch my head on this one. So, he saw and utilized talent in Tom Brady and Matt Cassell? Saw more talent in Matt Cassell than he saw in Jay Cutler (did he even look?)? Saw all the talent in Tebow but never had a chance to expose it? But didn't see any talent in Marshall, Sheffler or Hillis? Josh McDaniels is a baffoon. The way he ran things, if he had any sense, he could have drafted Tebow with any one of our 2nd round picks and we could have drafted more players. Still, no credit goes to McDaniels. He jumped the gun and gave up a lot to go back into the late first round. Nobody was going to draft Tebow before McCoy. Dumb luck if you ask me.

1. He didn't see more talent in Cassell than Cutler. He just didn't like Cutler, personally. Mistake, yes. However, Denver now has T2, the future face of the NFL and all of sports. It seemed to work better for you that McD didn't like Cutler.

2. I said no "analyst" expected Tebow to go that high. McD saw the talent and took him, very intelligently, knowing that some other NFL guru could've saw the talent. McD is a GENIUS and will be INSTRUMENTAL in Denver winning MULTIPLE suberbowls if ELWAY makes the RIGHT decision.

You play the game to win.

[Shazam!]

How can you NOT be sold on Tebow? Even if Denver gets pasted tomorrow they'll still likely be playing a postseason game for the first time in YEARS.

[artie_dale]

1. He didn't see more talent in Cassell than Cutler. He just didn't like Cutler, personally. Mistake, yes. However, Denver now has T2, the future face of the NFL and all of sports. It seemed to work better for you that McD didn't like Cutler.

2. I said no "analyst" expected Tebow to go that high. McD saw the talent and took him, very intelligently, knowing that some other NFL guru could've saw the talent. McD is a GENIUS and will be INSTRUMENTAL in Denver winning MULTIPLE suberbowls if ELWAY makes the RIGHT decision.

You play the game to win.

Holy crap. First of all YOU don't know me so you don't know if ANYTHING works better for me or not.

Second of all, you sound like a Florida native who hitched a ride on the Tebow train. If you really knew what it felt like to go through the dismantling of this team that McDaniels did, the words "McD is a GENIUS" will NEVER come to your mind.

So, since you are a 2nd Hand Bronco fan, enjoy your Tebow. I hope he improves enough to convince us all that he can be the franchise, but until then... ha ha, you just go right ahead and keep giving McDaniels credit.

[tebowtime5502]

How can you NOT be sold on Tebow? Even if Denver gets pasted tomorrow they'll still likely be playing a postseason game for the first time in YEARS.

Some people like being right more than they like being healthy, happy and handsome.

[tebowtime5502]

Holy crap. First of all YOU don't know me so you don't know if ANYTHING works better for me or not.

Second of all, you sound like a Florida native who hitched a ride on the Tebow train. If you really knew what it felt like to go through the dismantling of this team that McDaniels did, the words "McD is a GENIUS" will NEVER come to your mind.

So, since you are a 2nd Hand Bronco fan, enjoy your Tebow. I hope he improves enough to convince us all that he can be the franchise, but until then... ha ha, you just go right ahead and keep giving McDaniels credit.

I do know you and I do know what works for you.

Unfortunately, you don't.

[Dzone]

:pound:

[Buff]

I am totally confused... On one hand, I think this style of play is legitimately hard for defenses to defend - it keeps them in a relatively vanilla base defense because they have to account for everything. Running the football & playing great defense will always be the recipe for a championship, so in that regard, we are developing a winning formula.

That said, it's a really difficult style of football to carry on for 17 weeks: Very little margin for error, a lot of wear and tear on your QB, and sooner or later you can't just count on lining up and physically outwilling your opponent every week. Not in this league.

So, I definitely think TT has earned the right to go into next season as the starter... But I also want to see another year play out to see about the sustainability of this offense.

[Dzone]

Wish someone would start a game discussion thread. I would but dont like to start threads.
I just hear that we are starting 3 rookies in the secondary? So I am assuming that means Harris, Moore and Carter. Are these guys up to the challenge of stopping Brady/Gronkowski et. al.? I think sacking Brady and making him throw under pressure will make those rookies look like seasoned veterans.
So whats going on with Dawkins?

[Dzone]

I am totally confused... On one hand, I think this style of play is legitimately hard for defenses to defend - it keeps them in a relatively vanilla base defense because they have to account for everything. Running the football & playing great defense will always be the recipe for a championship, so in that regard, we are developing a winning formula.

That said, it's a really difficult style of football to carry on for 17 weeks: Very little margin for error, a lot of wear and tear on your QB, and sooner or later you can't just count on lining up and physically outwilling your opponent every week. Not in this league.

So, I definitely think TT has earned the right to go into next season as the starter... But I also want to see another year play out to see about the sustainability of this offense.
Good point. I am just wondering if Tebow is somehow not getting hit that hard. Nothing like the Colt Mccoy hit, God forbid. So yes, the sustainability of this offense depends on the physical fitness , endurance and durability of Tim Tebow. If he stays strong and healthy, the sky's the limit

[socalthunder]

I'm sold on Tim for now. He's earned to start next year for sure. A full off-season will only help Tim get better all around.

And draft more DEFENSE!!

[artie_dale]

I do know you and I do know what works for you.

Unfortunately, you don't.

ha ha ha. Obviously, you know what your talking about. :rofl:

oh, and the fact that you "high 5'd" your own post speaks volumes. Keep up the great work.

[bcbronc]

I disagree about Ayers. Ayers isn't flashy and he doesn't get a lot of sacks but he's been a mainstay on our DL this season and he is very good against the rush.

People really are missing the boat on Ayers, he's played very well.

Agreed. He's only got the two sacks, but he's part of a defense that ranks fourth in that stat. There's only so many sacks to go around, and there's been a few times I've noticed either him moving the QB in the pocket and affecting the throw, or getting to the QB half a step after Von Doom.

Like you say, he's been good against the run. There's zero reason to think he's maxed out his potential as a third-year pro who spent his first two seasons out of position, and he's already a good run-down DE that perfectly complements Von Doom as passing down DEs. I would like to see him get more consistent pressure up the middle when he's moved inside on said passing downs, but he's young and can still develop that aspect of his game.

Some will say he's not contributing enough for a 1st rounder, or we could have drafted xxx instead, but three years into his career his draft day means absolutely nothing. All that's relevant is whether he's making positive plays that help the Broncos, and he is.

edit: forgot which thread this is...for Tebow to really show he's a franchise guy, he needs more wins in games where the defense isn't dominant. He's 1-1 so far this season in those games, and the W came against one of the worst DS in the league. Ayers and co. have done a great job allowing Tebow to win the games despite only putting together one or two drives per game.

[dogfish]

ayers is a solid starter for us now, that's nothing to complain about from a #18 pick. . . if he can be the DJ williams of defensive ends, i'm very cool with that. . . and he's a full-time starter, not a two-down guy-- he's rotating in to D-tackle when von drops down to end. . . and this is his first year back in the 40 front that he played in college, and his first year in dennis allen's scheme. . . no reason to think he doesn't have some developmental potential left. . . he may not be a star, but you don't have to get a star out of every pick-- get guys who can play, and build your depth. . . we have three stars on this defense, and their names are bailey, miller and dumervil. . . that's plenty, if we can put enough solid, functional pieces around them. . . hopefully guys like ayers, bunk if he's re-signed, DJ, quinton carter, and maybe rahim moore and nate irving can be some of those guys. . .




I am totally confused... On one hand, I think this style of play is legitimately hard for defenses to defend - it keeps them in a relatively vanilla base defense because they have to account for everything. Running the football & playing great defense will always be the recipe for a championship, so in that regard, we are developing a winning formula.

That said, it's a really difficult style of football to carry on for 17 weeks: Very little margin for error, a lot of wear and tear on your QB, and sooner or later you can't just count on lining up and physically outwilling your opponent every week. Not in this league.

So, I definitely think TT has earned the right to go into next season as the starter... But I also want to see another year play out to see about the sustainability of this offense.

fair post. . . i don't think anyone besides the nut-sniffin' fanbois needs to sign a ten-year commitment or anything. . .

i personally feel like i've seen enough to be comfortable for at least another year or so. . . he can throw the ball-- they just have to figure out how to get him to do it more consistently. . . that's doable, IMO. . . i've felt for most of the year that his (emphasized because i have no doubt that the errors of all the young receivers have magnified tim's struggles significantly) single biggest problem is the paralysis by analysis thing. . . he's over-processing. . . in addition to all the normal adjustments-- speed of the game, complicated playbook, reading confusing defenses, etc-- he's also had his mechanics and delivery messed with a lot over the past two years. . .

i think it's been too much. . . i think he plays better in hurry-up type situations because it forces him to just play and not think about it, and he gets the eye of the ****in' tiger when he can just let it rip. . . i hope they don't work on anything mechanically besides footwork this off-season. . . and i really do believe that a full off-season, with all the proper OTAs and camps, will do him a lot of good. . . everybody agreed that he was at least a two-three year project-- i really don't think mcdaniels did much to develop him, and obviously this year was a cluster due to the lockout. . . i fully expect a whole off-season as the unquestioned starter, getting the reps and individual coaching attention that it entails, should result in him being a noticeably improved passer next year. . .

of course, like most young QBs, that growth will probably happen in fits and starts over a period of several years-- assuming that it does happen, of course, but that's the typical progression. . .

as far as i'm concerned, he's shown more than enough in the other areas (clutch play, intangibles, inspirational leadership, his contributions to the run game, etc) to warrant being VERY patient in terms of his development-- because the upside is clearly enormous if he can become even a consistently competent passer. . . he's like a ray lewis type of personality that you can build the culture of an entire organization around, and that's extremely valuable. . .

[Canmore]

ayers is a solid starter for us now, that's nothing to complain about from a #18 pick. . . if he can be the DJ williams of defensive ends, i'm very cool with that. . . and he's a full-time starter, not a two-down guy-- he's rotating in to D-tackle when von drops down to end. . . and this is his first year back in the 40 front that he played in college, and his first year in dennis allen's scheme. . . no reason to think he doesn't have some developmental potential left. . . he may not be a star, but you don't have to get a star out of every pick-- get guys who can play, and build your depth. . . we have three stars on this defense, and their names are bailey, miller and dumervil. . . that's plenty, if we can put enough solid, functional pieces around them. . . hopefully guys like ayers, bunk if he's re-signed, DJ, quinton carter, and maybe rahim moore and nate irving can be some of those guys. . .





fair post. . . i don't think anyone besides the nut-sniffin' fanbois needs to sign a ten-year commitment or anything. . .

i personally feel like i've seen enough to be comfortable for at least another year or so. . . he can throw the ball-- they just have to figure out how to get him to do it more consistently. . . that's doable, IMO. . . i've felt for most of the year that his (emphasized because i have no doubt that the errors of all the young receivers have magnified tim's struggles significantly) single biggest problem is the paralysis by analysis thing. . . he's over-processing. . . in addition to all the normal adjustments-- speed of the game, complicated playbook, reading confusing defenses, etc-- he's also had his mechanics and delivery messed with a lot over the past two years. . .

i think it's been too much. . . i think he plays better in hurry-up type situations because it forces him to just play and not think about it, and he gets the eye of the ****in' tiger when he can just let it rip. . . i hope they don't work on anything mechanically besides footwork this off-season. . . and i really do believe that a full off-season, with all the proper OTAs and camps, will do him a lot of good. . . everybody agreed that he was at least a two-three year project-- i really don't think mcdaniels did much to develop him, and obviously this year was a cluster due to the lockout. . . i fully expect a whole off-season as the unquestioned starter, getting the reps and individual coaching attention that it entails, should result in him being a noticeably improved passer next year. . .

of course, like most young QBs, that growth will probably happen in fits and starts over a period of several years-- assuming that it does happen, of course, but that's the typical progression. . .

as far as i'm concerned, he's shown more than enough in the other areas (clutch play, intangibles, inspirational leadership, his contributions to the run game, etc) to warrant being VERY patient in terms of his development-- because the upside is clearly enormous if he can become even a consistently competent passer. . . he's like a ray lewis type of personality that you can build the culture of an entire organization around, and that's extremely valuable. . .

I agree with this. Work on his footwork and live with the delivery. It was said he would be a project and it definitely shows. What also shows is the amount of effort Tebow will put in to improve. His intangibles are off of the chart. In crunch time he has shown abilities many in this league would die for. All I wanted this season was to see the kid play. All he has shown is that he is a winner. Give him another season as the incumbent and let's see if what we hope he is continues.

[BroncoTech]

Tebow hasn't beaten a quality opponent yet, so I voted NO, he is not the franchise QB. He probably deserves the nod to start next year. He can go a long way tomorrow, by beating a good team.

This is not Tebow's fault, because there are so many poor teams in the NFL this year. He's beat the raiders with a rusty QB, he beat Chicago without Forte and Cutler, he played the sparklers when Phylis was slumping and the Jets were on a short week, Miami for crying out load tried to get Orton.

So as much as I'd like him to develop into a FQB it just remains to be seen. I think the kid is great at protecting the ball and that speaks volumes, but he needs to beat a contender.

[wayninja]

Tebow hasn't beaten a quality opponent yet, so I voted NO, he is not the franchise QB. He probably deserves the nod to start next year. He can go a long way tomorrow, by beating a good team.

This is not Tebow's fault, because there are so many poor teams in the NFL this year. He's beat the raiders with a rusty QB, he beat Chicago without Forte and Cutler, he played the sparklers when Phylis was slumping and the Jets were on a short week, Miami for crying out load tried to get Orton.

So as much as I'd like him to develop into a FQB it just remains to be seen. I think the kid is great at protecting the ball and that speaks volumes, but he needs to beat a contender.

What about the vikings? They're pretty good, right?

[BroncoTech]

2-11 is great if you're hoping for Luck.

[chazoe60]

Bears, Jets, and Raiders are quality oponents. Just because they aren't elite does not mean they aren't quality.

[Northman]

Broncotech has some solid points but at the same time its not like Denver themselves is a quality opponent. So basically we are on the same level as Oak, Miami, etc. But the fact that we can win while Tebow learns is a bonus.

[dogfish]

meh!

you play who's on the schedule. . . when you beat all of them, that's pretty good. . . especially when some of those teams were kicking OUR ass last year. . .

[Canmore]

Broncotech has some solid points but at the same time its not like Denver themselves is a quality opponent. So basically we are on the same level as Oak, Miami, etc. But the fact that we can win while Tebow learns is a bonus.

Winning in this league is hard. I don't care who the opponent is. Six wins in a row is impressive. So is 7-1 as a starter. We were 1-4 and left for road kill when Tebow entered the game. Give the man his due. Quarterbacks take to much of the blame for losses and get to much of the credit for winning, but they are the difference makers in a quarterback driven league. Tebow is winning. It seems that is all he knows how to do. I'll take it.

[TimHippo]

Honestly there are probably only 3 elite teams this year. Green Bay, New Orleans and New England.

If the Broncos beat Pitt, Ravens, San Francisco, Houston, Atlanta, people would say those teams are no longer good (like with the Jets, Raiders, Bears)

[Canmore]

Honestly there are probably only 3 elite teams this year. Green Bay, New Orleans and New England.

If the Broncos beat Pitt, Ravens, San Francisco, Houston, Atlanta, people would say those teams are no longer good (like with the Jets, Raiders, Bears)

Elite? In the NFC the Packers look like the team of destiny. New Orleans may just surprise them. In the AFC New England, Pittsburgh and Baltimore all look tough. As far as playoff football goes, I will take both Pittsburgh and Baltimore over the Patriots who can't stop anybody. Let's beat the Patriots tomorrow and have our name brandished about as elite.

[TimHippo]

Elite? In the NFC the Packers look like the team of destiny. New Orleans may just surprise them. In the AFC New England, Pittsburgh and Baltimore all look tough. As far as playoff football goes, I will take both Pittsburgh and Baltimore over the Patriots who can't stop anybody. Let's beat the Patriots tomorrow and have our name brandished about as elite.

I don't really like Pitt or Baltimore. Good teams but I think their offenses are pretty suspect. Especially Joe Flacco.

[Canmore]

I don't really like Pitt or Baltimore. Good teams but I think their offenses are pretty suspect. Especially Joe Flacco.

I don't like Joe Flacco and his record in the playoffs is really poor but New England's defense can't stop Gumby. How many Super Bowls has Big Ben been to and how many has he won? I'll take Pittsburgh and Baltimore in the playoffs.

[TimHippo]

I don't like Joe Flacco and his record in the playoffs is really poor but New England's defense can't stop Gumby. How many Super Bowls has Big Ben been to and how many has he won? I'll take Pittsburgh and Baltimore in the playoffs.

My point was that if the Broncos had beaten Baltimore or Pittsburgh, they would have been dismissed as a non elite opponent like the Jets, Raiders, Bears, etc. They would say well Baltimore is not that good. I mean look at the Jets, they have a great defense but their offense is subpar. And Sanchez is usually the problem like Flacco.

As far as Pitt I think they are a little old and not as good as they used to be.

[Canmore]

My point was that if the Broncos had beaten Baltimore or Pittsburgh, they would have been dismissed as a non elite opponent like the Jets, Raiders, Bears, etc. They would say well Baltimore is not that good. I mean look at the Jets, they have a great defense but their offense is subpar. And Sanchez is usually the problem like Flacco.

As far as Pitt I think they are a little old and not as good as they used to be.

I realize that the haters are going to hate and some now want to scrutinize our record and that of our opponents during the Tebow era. As far as beating Pittsburgh or Baltimore that is just speculation. I think most of the talking heads would say that they are elite, they just had a bad day. New England is up and we will be judged on our performance against them, fair or unfair, regardless of the outcome. We need to come out firing on all cylinders. Miller and Doom need to move Tom Terrific off of his spot and the offense has got to move the football against a very suspect Patriot defense. We need points in the first half. Not just the fourth quarter.

[Canmore]

As far as Pittsburgh, I think they are probably the team to beat in the AFC.

[BroncoTech]

I think maybe the Jets are the best team we've beat, and the Bears and Raiders without their starting QB's are not that good. The last time the Broncos won 6 in a row, it was a mirage. So we don't really know this is real. You have to admit these wins are a little too close for any comfort.

TT has a QB rating of 46 in the first 3 quarters. He's scoring .5 more points per game than Orton. He has the big X factor that's hard to diagnose.

The kid can go out tomorrow and remove little doubt, and I hope does. I'd even settle to keep it close and having a shot at the win. We all saw the train wreck that is known as the Detroit game and they are a good team this year.

<sarcasm>Now if we come out and beat that offensive jaggernaut of Orton at KC, then I'd be impressed.</sarcasm>

[tomjonesrocks]

How can you be?

I hope he is of course; he's a model citizen and it's hard not to root for the guy. But he's not a prototypical elite QB talent (even if he is an elite competitor) so I don't see how anyone could look into the crystal ball and know for certain he's a FCQB. He's made this season WAY more interesting than I expected and certainly plays his heart out--so props to him for what he's been able to do. He is an inspiration.

It's controversial; but I'm still not sure Tebow long-term will have the better career over Cutler.

He's a ****load more interesting than Orton though--so here's to that.

Good for Tebow though. The Broncos should never be a doormat. Props to him for remedying that situation.

BTW--on the poll, what's the difference between "no" and "not sure yet"? They seem equivalent to me...

[Canmore]

I think maybe the Jets are the best team we've beat, and the Bears and Raiders without their starting QB's are not that good. The last time the Broncos won 6 in a row, it was a mirage. So we don't really know this is real. You have to admit these wins are a little too close for any comfort.

TT has a QB rating of 46 in the first 3 quarters. He's scoring .5 more points per game than Orton. He has the big X factor that's hard to diagnose.

The kid can go out tomorrow and remove little doubt, and I hope does. I'd even settle to keep it close and having a shot at the win. We all saw the train wreck that is known as the Detroit game and they are a good team this year.

<sarcasm>Now if we come out and beat that offensive juggernaut of Orton at KC, then I'd be impressed.</sarcasm>

Tebow has certainly lit it up in the first three quarters. Beating Orton and the Chiefs certainly would be a huge accomplishment.

Seriously, we will find out a lot tomorrow. New England is a huge roadblock. I don't have a clue what is going to happen tomorrow. I wish I did. I see a lot of scenarios playing out. What I envision is a hard fought game. If that happens I like our chances.

[Chef Zambini]

I have to scratch my head on this one. So, he saw and utilized talent in Tom Brady and Matt Cassell? Saw more talent in Matt Cassell than he saw in Jay Cutler (did he even look?)? Saw all the talent in Tebow but never had a chance to expose it? But didn't see any talent in Marshall, Sheffler or Hillis? Josh McDaniels is a baffoon. The way he ran things, if he had any sense, he could have drafted Tebow with any one of our 2nd round picks and we could have drafted more players. Still, no credit goes to McDaniels. He jumped the gun and gave up a lot to go back into the late first round. Nobody was going to draft Tebow before McCoy. Dumb luck if you ask me.JMCD's MO is pretty obvious!
He works at making "players'ut of his own hand selected guys!
he forced moreno into the spot light because HE drafted him. he diminished and dumped HILLIS because HIULLIS success brings ZERO credit to JMCD! Its true in every situation of who had success and who was sidelined or let go!
JMCD was far too focused on his own ego and making himself look masterfull, when in reaLITY WHAT HE was oding did start with the phrase "master..." but I will leave that for anothe deBATE.

[BroncoJoe]

FQB? Not sure.

Definite starter for next year? Absolutely.

[Chef Zambini]

how do all of you think elway answered this poll?

[bcbronc]

how do all of you think elway answered this poll?

where is the "I'm jealous and 'fraid for my legacy" option?

[TimHippo]

I realize that the haters are going to hate and some now want to scrutinize our record and that of our opponents during the Tebow era. As far as beating Pittsburgh or Baltimore that is just speculation. I think most of the talking heads would say that they are elite, they just had a bad day. New England is up and we will be judged on our performance against them, fair or unfair, regardless of the outcome. We need to come out firing on all cylinders. Miller and Doom need to move Tom Terrific off of his spot and the offense has got to move the football against a very suspect Patriot defense. We need points in the first half. Not just the fourth quarter.

See. The Ravens are getting destroyed by San Diego. They are not an elite team.

[wayninja]

Tebow played ok today. Some of the silliness in the forth quarter can be discounted as garbage time desperation.

He still has some work to do getting to his check-down when nothing is available down the field, but still a solid showing.

I don't think he changed anyone's mind today either way.

[horsepig]

"Gollygee", Phyillis can throw sometimes.

[horsepig]

Tebow played ok today. Some of the silliness in the forth quarter can be discounted as garbage time desperation.

He still has some work to do getting to his check-down when nothing is available down the field, but still a solid showing.

I don't think he changed anyone's mind today either way.

That damned checkdown receiver, a back usually, has been there all along. He did his best job taking that today he has yet.

Another reason his % is so low, he rarely nhas used his safety valve.

[Shazam!]

Reading the last few posts about safety valves and check downs-

You know who I just thought of after reading that? Tony Scheffler. Could've seen him being SICK with Tebow.

[Fullback32]

Elway is blinded by ego and jealousy.

Hmmm, let's see...

300 career touchdown passes (fifth in the NFL)
One of only four quarterbacks to pass for at least 3,000 yards in 12 seasons
Only player to throw for over 3,000 yards and rush for over 200 yards in seven straight seasons (1985–1991)
Six AFC Championship appearances
Five Superbowl appearances
AFC MVP
NFL MVP
Superbowl MVP
Two Superbowl rings
First year eligible Hall of Fame induction

...yes, he's green with envy. :rolleyes:

[Joel]

See. The Ravens are getting destroyed by San Diego. They are not an elite team.
All the Ravens losses are to bad teams; IIRC Tennessee is the best team that's beaten them. I don't think they're undisciplined (per se,) so I'm guessing they just underestimate weak opponents. I say that because every time they've played GOOD teams (Houston, Pitt twice, Cincy, SF) they beat them soundly. In fact, I'm still not sure why everyone kept saying the Texans were the AFCs top seed; they had the same record, but the Ravens had the head to head, so that should've made THEM the top seed over just about anyone.

[Shazam!]

Hmmm, let's see...

300 career touchdown passes (fifth in the NFL)
One of only four quarterbacks to pass for at least 3,000 yards in 12 seasons
Only player to throw for over 3,000 yards and rush for over 200 yards in seven straight seasons (1985–1991)
Six AFC Championship appearances
Five Superbowl appearances
AFC MVP
NFL MVP
Superbowl MVP
Two Superbowl rings
First year eligible Hall of Fame induction

...yes, he's green with envy

You forgot 2nd in overall wins as a QB... beaten by Farve but it took Brett more years.

Another uncounted stat is that no QB has gone undefeated against so many teams.

I could see how some may think Elway is jealous though. Sure, he's got all the accolades from his playing days BUT Tebow is the hottest thing to hit Denver since... Elway.

first and foremost he's got a job to do, and he won't run him under the bus so I wouldn't worry about that.

[sneakers]

Tebow played ok today. Some of the silliness in the forth quarter can be discounted as garbage time desperation.

He still has some work to do getting to his check-down when nothing is available down the field, but still a solid showing.

I don't think he changed anyone's mind today either way.

There was one play where he took the 57-yard sack where he looked rediculas (hahahah spelkling), but it was 4th and 17....

[Npba900]

Tebow has made strides this year no doubt. Fox putting in Tebow ball is a short term solution to allow Tim to get comfortable with the sped of the NFL. However, next year Tebow is going to need to make bigger strides of improvement. Like taking his passing percentage from 48 pct to maybe 58-65 pct while taking more snaps from behind center. Then and only then when Tebow show he's making the neccessary strides to become a legitmate NFL QB and Franchise QB for the Broncos. By 2013 if Tebow isn't passing in 60-65 pct, then he won't be the long-term solution. If Tebow doesn't get close to 58 pct passing in 2012 as the starter, Elway will more than likely look for a NFL proto-typical QB.

[Chef Zambini]

Tebow has made strides this year no doubt. Fox putting in Tebow ball is a short term solution to allow Tim to get comfortable with the sped of the NFL. However, next year Tebow is going to need to make bigger strides of improvement. Like taking his passing percentage from 48 pct to maybe 58-65 pct while taking more snaps from behind center. Then and only then when Tebow show he's making the neccessary strides to become a legitmate NFL QB and Franchise QB for the Broncos. By 2013 if Tebow isn't passing in 60-65 pct, then he won't be the long-term solution. If Tebow doesn't get close to 58 pct passing in 2012 as the starter, Elway will more than likely look for a NFL proto-typical QB.if the tebow led broncos lose to orton and the cheifs, then your prediction will come a year early.
ELWAY remaions uncommited to TEBOW.
thats just reality.
the singular play that is haunting ELWAY from yesterday is not the fumbles, its TIMMY running around in the backfield, like a mouse in a room full of cats, eventually running right into a tackler.
THAT PLAY, and tims total lack of pocket presence is why JE is not convinced that TT can lead his beloved broncos to the big dance.

[Fullback32]

Tebow has made strides this year no doubt. Fox putting in Tebow ball is a short term solution to allow Tim to get comfortable with the sped of the NFL. However, next year Tebow is going to need to make bigger strides of improvement. Like taking his passing percentage from 48 pct to maybe 58-65 pct while taking more snaps from behind center. Then and only then when Tebow show he's making the neccessary strides to become a legitmate NFL QB and Franchise QB for the Broncos. By 2013 if Tebow isn't passing in 60-65 pct, then he won't be the long-term solution. If Tebow doesn't get close to 58 pct passing in 2012 as the starter, Elway will more than likely look for a NFL proto-typical QB.

Yes, TT has gotten better, but there is much improvement left to be done. Tony Dungy said it best last night, "he did fine until he HAD to throw." Agreed.

Too many at the feet and over the head, too many unseen open receivers against a suspect Patriots secondary and it's move up into the pocket not back-peddle from it. The 29 yard sack...wow. Made me think of Bob Greise in the 71 Superbowl running from Bob Lilly.

I am not convinced yet. Maybe some intense coaching can fix it, but I would hate to see the Broncos miss the chance on taking a QB in arguably the best QB class since 1983. We'll just have to see what happens.

[Chef Zambini]

There was one play where he took the 57-yard sack where he looked rediculas (hahahah spelkling), but it was 4th and 17.......at that point, I was flipping chaNNELS checking ion on other games.
I am glad I did not haVE TO WATCH that as it happened.
I have it on DVR, I am debating wether or not to re-watch the game or delete it forever.

[ShooterJM]

I don't know. It's 4th and 17. If you don't convert on a huge play the game is over anyway. Might as well run around and try to buy time to see if anyone can get open.

I guess I'd be more pissed if he threw it away.


Edit: And yeah, I'm sold. We need the draft to fill many other positions.

[Shazam!]

don't know. It's 4th and 17. If you don't convert on a huge play the game is over anyway. Might as well run around and try to buy time to see if anyone can get open.

I guess I'd be more pissed if he threw it away.

This says IT ALL. How can you slam TT for running around trying to make something happen in a blowout on the LAST POSESSION?!?! C'mon, be reasonable.


Edit: And yeah, I'm sold. We need the draft to fill many other positions.

This team needs to get better at MANY positions on both sides of the ball before QB becomes a worry. TT will be improved after a complete offseason and with the GOAT working with him. If the team plays in a January postseason game, the Denver Broncos are comitted to Tebow. Period. Besides the benefit of the quick turnaround, there'd be a mutiny with the a large portion of the fans if they sabotage TT.

[wayninja]

I'm still confused why we don't have more (or any?) bootlegs. Seems like Tebow would be well suited for that.

[Fullback32]

I'm still confused why we don't have more (or any?) bootlegs. Seems like Tebow would be well suited for that.

I don't know. Since defenses would be keying on a potential Tebow run, I'd think that they'd have a contain man in position at least most of the time. Not sure if bootlegs would work because of that.

[wayninja]

I don't know. Since defenses whould be keying on a potential Tebow run, I'd think that they'd have a contain man in position at least most of the time. Not sure if bootlegs would work because of that.

But 1 man on Tebow isn't like 1 man on most other quarterbacks... It would also set up screens and short routes more handily and Tebow draws a crowd when they think he's going to run.

I dunno, I'm sure there's a good football reason, I just really haven't heard a good explanation yet.

[jhildebrand]

We should get a prototypical QB like Flacco. That guy had all the prototypical QB attributes and he has paid huge dividends for Baltimore.

[Joel]

Yes, TT has gotten better, but there is much improvement left to be done. Tony Dungy said it best last night, "he did fine until he HAD to throw." Agreed.

Too many at the feet and over the head, too many unseen open receivers against a suspect Patriots secondary and it's move up into the pocket not back-peddle from it. The 29 yard sack...wow. Made me think of Bob Greise in the 71 Superbowl running from Bob Lilly.

I am not convinced yet. Maybe some intense coaching can fix it, but I would hate to see the Broncos miss the chance on taking a QB in arguably the best QB class since 1983. We'll just have to see what happens.
'72 Super Bowl, technically; Jim Nantz ultimately caught that error when he made it (or, more likely, someone on the crew whispered it to him.)

Dungy's a great defensive coach but owes his sole offensive success to Peyton Manning; the only problem with Tebow throwing was that he didn't throw the ball away quickly enough when our porous line repeatedly let tacklers into the backfield, as they did throughout the 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarters on runs and passes alike. The passing itself was good, but not enough after three turnovers gave NE an 11 point lead and our D was incapable of stopping them more than a couple times.

The current QB crop can't be compared to the '83 draft because we know there were many great QBs there and can only speculate about the quailty of the 2012 draft. Tebow is a known quantity, and a pretty good one.

[Chef Zambini]

We should get a prototypical QB like Flacco. That guy had all the prototypical QB attributes and he has paid huge dividends for Baltimore.I appreciate your sarcasm.
FLACCO played better as a rookie! I have issues with his QB coach and his development and gameplans.

[jhildebrand]

I appreciate your sarcasm.
FLACCO played better as a rookie! I have issues with his QB coach and his development and gameplans.

The gameplan, if you can call it that, last night by the Ravens was atrocious. But I am not sure how much of that is on Flacco! They marched down the field running the ball. They could have ran all over SD last night. They would move the ball and then Flacco would begin going to pass plays on three consecutive downs. It killed their drives.

As for the game plan and what not, Cameron worked wonders in 06 for Rivers and SD.

Flacco isn't without blame. He holds the ball way too long and is a statue in the pocket. He also eyeballs his WR. All things people want to run TT out of here for. The problem is Flacco has started just a couple more games than TT.

[Chef Zambini]

This says IT ALL. How can you slam TT for running around trying to make something happen in a blowout on the LAST POSESSION?!?! C'mon, be reasonable.



This team needs to get better at MANY positions on both sides of the ball before QB becomes a worry. TT will be improved after a complete offseason and with the GOAT working with him. If the team plays in a January postseason game, the Denver Broncos are comitted to Tebow. Period. Besides the benefit of the quick turnaround, there'd be a mutiny with the a large portion of the fans if they sabotage TT. but ALAS the g.o.a.t. may not be thinking like you!
if JE does NOT believe that TT can take this team to the SB and win it, he will lok elsewhere in this years draft !
if he sees a PATHWAY to LUCK he will take it !
RG3 might also be enough motivation for JE to trade away TT as well.
a loss to the orton led cheifs will make it even easier for JE to make that trade, regardless of how unpopular it might be.

[Mike]

Tebow deserves the chance to get a full offseason of OTAs and to go into the year as the starter. What he does from there is up to him.

[wayninja]

but ALAS the g.o.a.t. may not be thinking like you!
if JE does NOT believe that TT can take this team to the SB and win it, he will lok elsewhere in this years draft !
if he sees a PATHWAY to LUCK he will take it !
RG3 might also be enough motivation for JE to trade away TT as well.
a loss to the orton led cheifs will make it even easier for JE to make that trade, regardless of how unpopular it might be.

Ever think about getting one of these?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-C-yUl3a-2d4/TcdssjQEZwI/AAAAAAAAAFw/tNHzflcG48s/s400/end.jpg

[Fullback32]

'72 Super Bowl, technically; Jim Nantz ultimately caught that error when he made it (or, more likely, someone on the crew whispered it to him.)

True, but I always think of it as the 1971 Superbowl because it was the 1971 Cowboys. I watched that game and loved every minute of it. Now the actual 1971 Superbowl with the 1970 Cowboys....ugh.


Dungy's a great defensive coach but owes his sole offensive success to Peyton Manning; the only problem with Tebow throwing was that he didn't throw the ball away quickly enough when our porous line repeatedly let tacklers into the backfield, as they did throughout the 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarters on runs and passes alike. The passing itself was good, but not enough after three turnovers gave NE an 11 point lead and our D was incapable of stopping them more than a couple times.

The current QB crop can't be compared to the '83 draft because we know there were many great QBs there and can only speculate about the quailty of the 2012 draft. Tebow is a known quantity, and a pretty good one.

Agreed, with the bolded. He was not good enough to overcome the gifts and that is the problem. As I mentioned earlier, there were still the overthrown/underthrown balls, unseen open receivers and, of course, holding on to the ball too long and the back-peddling. These are things that QB coaches have to address in the off-season if TT is to be a long-term solution.

I know that TT will put his full effort into correcting those things. Time will tell if he has the talent to actually fix them.

[catfish]

I am actually more interested to see who is sold on Tebow as the starter next year....francise QB is a big comittment for a 2nd year

[Agent of Orange]

I'm not sure what "franchise QB" means. But I think Tim will be the QB going forward for several reasons. And this is something that pleases me. He's shown a tremendous amount of improvement and, because of his fame, people are forgetting that he's essentially still a rookie.

What I wonder is, with Tim's ability to buy extra time, why are more WRs not getting open even with that added time? He's throwing it away far too much because guys aren't open.

[LordTrychon]

I am actually more interested to see who is sold on Tebow as the starter next year....francise QB is a big comittment for a 2nd year

The answer I was looking for in the poll was 'Sold on him for next year's starter.'

I put 'provided continued growth as a passer over the next few weeks... but I'm really curious how he looks next year.

[BigDaddyBronco]

I'm not sure what "franchise QB" means. But I think Tim will be the QB going forward for several reasons. And this is something that pleases me. He's shown a tremendous amount of improvement and, because of his fame, people are forgetting that he's essentially still a rookie.

What I wonder is, with Tim's ability to buy extra time, why are more WRs not getting open even with that added time? He's throwing it away far too much because guys aren't open.

I think part of it is also his hesitancy to force throws for the fear of throwing interceptions. In some of those wide shots where they showed what it looked like down field the receivers had just a step on the defender. A guy like Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, etc. makes that throw. As he develops, the WR's will look better.

Having some misdirection plays in the throwing game will help as well. That also will require some time and experience with Tebow, and a line that can keep him upright.

I'm excited to see what he'll be like next year with an entire off-season to work on his game.

[Agent of Orange]

I think part of it is also his hesitancy to force throws for the fear of throwing interceptions. In some of those wide shots where they showed what it looked like down field the receivers had just a step on the defender. A guy like Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, etc. makes that throw. As he develops, the WR's will look better.

Having some misdirection plays in the throwing game will help as well. That also will require some time and experience with Tebow, and a line that can keep him upright.

I'm excited to see what he'll be like next year with an entire off-season to work on his game.

When he scrambles, the field should be opening up and defenders should be spreading out. This and the added time for WRs to get open hasn't allowed them to do so. The WRs need to be better at this. I also disagree with what you're saying if you're commenting on the same thing I remember. From what I saw, they simply weren't open especially after the extra time. It was ridiculous.

[artie_dale]

I am actually more interested to see who is sold on Tebow as the starter next year....francise QB is a big comittment for a 2nd year

I think he can do it. He's still learning but seeing some of the passes he made in the 1st and 4th quarter, he's on his way. His mistakes Sunday were decision making (holding onto the ball too long). I wouldn't be butt sore if the team still drafted a QB, but I think Tebow will compete just fine.

[catfish]

I think he can do it. He's still learning but seeing some of the passes he made in the 1st and 4th quarter, he's on his way. His mistakes Sunday were decision making (holding onto the ball too long). I wouldn't be butt sore if the team still drafted a QB, but I think Tebow will compete just fine.

I will respond by saying that the team should aquire a QB, either through draft or FA....they need a backup to step in. RE-sign Quinn, draft a 3rd/4th rounder whatever. I just think drafting someone they expect to take over with what is shaping up to be a passable starer already on the roster wold not only be a waste, but would potentially bite the FO in the ass

[artie_dale]

I will respond by saying that the team should aquire a QB, either through draft or FA....they need a backup to step in. RE-sign Quinn, draft a 3rd/4th rounder whatever. I just think drafting someone they expect to take over with what is shaping up to be a passable starer already on the roster wold not only be a waste, but would potentially bite the FO in the ass

I agree. Theres still time to assess. 2 games and wha tooks like a playoff birth. We'll see how Teebs handles himself after this loss. I'm mostly pleased with his progress in just this 6 game stretch. You can really see how the offense was revamped to strickly running, and game by game, they included more and more pass plays. He threaded some good ones so his accuracy is improving. He's just gotta be more consistant at it now.

[Chef Zambini]

There was one play where he took the 57-yard sack where he looked rediculas (hahahah spelkling), but it was 4th and 17....npo that [play where he ran around in the backfield like a spinning top bopuncing off walls...
right into a tackler...
thaT WAS VERY EMBARASSING.

[Joel]

True, but I always think of it as the 1971 Superbowl because it was the 1971 Cowboys. I watched that game and loved every minute of it. Now the actual 1971 Superbowl with the 1970 Cowboys....ugh.
So many "almosts" with those Meredith and Morton teams. I still think if Staubach had had the luxury of the David Robinson Rule the Cowboys win the first two Super Bowls and the trophy's named after Landry. Can you imagine how much people would hate Dallas if that had happened? :tongue: As it is, they're a Jackie Smith drop away from being the best team of the '70s. Denver coaches should get tape of that play and make all our receivers watch it, then tell them that's the closest the 5 time Pro Bowler ever got to a Super Bowl win, and the sole reason he's widely remembered today. :(

Sad to see Jerry Jones doing his best Al Davis impression with Americas Team. :tsk:

Agreed, with the bolded. He was not good enough to overcome the gifts and that is the problem. As I mentioned earlier, there were still the overthrown/underthrown balls, unseen open receivers and, of course, holding on to the ball too long and the back-peddling. These are things that QB coaches have to address in the off-season if TT is to be a long-term solution.

I know that TT will put his full effort into correcting those things. Time will tell if he has the talent to actually fix them.
He's got the talent, and the smarts, and the effort is there, along with the coaching, so I'm confident we'll all be very satisfied with the outcome. But, continuing the theme, Troy Aikman and the two time defending SB Champs weren't good enough to overcome 3 first half turnovers on their end of the field against a great offense, and they had a much better D than ours. I saw very few true under/overthrows from Tebow, no more than I'd expect from any good NFL QB. He'll back-pedal a lot less when he's got some decent blocking; I'm looking forward to how Clady will perform when healthy and Franklin after a years experience plus a full offseason.

My only complaints with him now are that he sometimes holds the ball too long trying to "make something happen" and doesn't get through his progressions at game speed. There's still a tendency to lock onto one receiver, but with the unreliability of our receivers I can't fault him much there; in his place, I'd be afraid to go away from the ONE guy who's making catches, too. Those are fairly minor issues that aren't hard to correct with good coaching, talent and a strong work ethic, all of which he has. I'd still take him over any second year QB in the League, and he's still improving, so why would anyone want to switch him for a great big question mark?

[Agent of Orange]

npo that [play where he ran around in the backfield like a spinning top bopuncing off walls...
right into a tackler...
thaT WAS VERY EMBARASSING.

I guess it must have been extremely embarrassing when a seasoned vet like Brady was blasted by Dumervil. Someone of Brady's caliber and experience should have seen that right?

[dogfish]

man, somebody oughta let JRwiz know this zambini guy stole his phone. . . .

[socalthunder]

npo that [play where he ran around in the backfield like a spinning top bopuncing off walls...
right into a tackler...
thaT WAS VERY EMBARASSING.

Zam, your typing is embarrassing. :beer:

[camdisco24]

npo that [play where he ran around in the backfield like a spinning top bopuncing off walls...
right into a tackler...
thaT WAS VERY EMBARASSING.

ehh, I prefer that to the fainting goat act of our last QB.

[bcbronc]

But 1 man on Tebow isn't like 1 man on most other quarterbacks... It would also set up screens and short routes more handily and Tebow draws a crowd when they think he's going to run.

I dunno, I'm sure there's a good football reason, I just really haven't heard a good explanation yet.

My theory is it has to do with Tebow's play action from under center. To be blunt, he's terrible at it. If the PA doesn't fool anyone, the QB will get killed or fumble if he tries to bootleg. It's not really a surprise that Tebow is so unconvincing on his PA with his limited development playing under center. As his footwork becomes more natural hopefully his PA will become more effective, opening up some bootlegs.

My other theory is that it's just not part of Fox/McCoy's offense.


The gameplan, if you can call it that, last night by the Ravens was atrocious. But I am not sure how much of that is on Flacco! They marched down the field running the ball. They could have ran all over SD last night. They would move the ball and then Flacco would begin going to pass plays on three consecutive downs. It killed their drives.

As for the game plan and what not, Cameron worked wonders in 06 for Rivers and SD.

Flacco isn't without blame. He holds the ball way too long and is a statue in the pocket. He also eyeballs his WR. All things people want to run TT out of here for. The problem is Flacco has started just a couple more games than TT.

I'm not sure what your point is jhil? All the discourse I hear regarding Flacco is basically it's time for him to shit or the Ravens need to start thinking about getting off the pot. I'm not getting exactly how Flacco's game is relevant to Tebow's....

[TT15Superman]

npo that [play where he ran around in the backfield like a spinning top bopuncing off walls...
right into a tackler...
thaT WAS VERY EMBARASSING.I agree. It was 4th and 17. He should have thrown it oob or to a covered receiver just past the line of scrimmage. That way,we could have given the ball over on downs. Instead, he was a moron for trying to by time to get a first down when the game was nearly over. :rolleyes:
here's your :first: trophy for "someone who doesn't know how the game is played."

[Chef Zambini]

dude, I am NOT talking about his last play of the game. it was in the first half! and I am pretty sure it was not third down either.
but thanks for the trophy anyway, it will look great next to my heismaNAND all my other insignificant to the NFL trophies.

[vandammage13]

dude, I am NOT talking about his last play of the game. it was in the first half! and I am pretty sure it was not third down either.
but thanks for the trophy anyway, it will look great next to my heismaNAND all my other insignificant to the NFL trophies.

I know the play youre talking about....He's actually done that quite a few times and was fortunate that this was the only time a Lineman was there waiting for him.

Hopefully with more experience, he'll get more comfortable in the pocket and not spin backwards like that...He has made some plays doing this though, but I just hate to see any player run in the opposite direction from where we're trying to go.

[Chef Zambini]

I know the play youre talking about....He's actually done that quite a few times and was fortunate that this was the only time a Lineman was there waiting for him.

Hopefully with more experience, he'll get more comfortable in the pocket and not spin backwards like that...He has made some plays doing this though, but I just hate to see any player run in the opposite direction from where we're trying to go.the lord was not his shepard on that play.

[lgenf]

I know the play youre talking about....He's actually done that quite a few times and was fortunate that this was the only time a Lineman was there waiting for him.

Hopefully with more experience, he'll get more comfortable in the pocket and not spin backwards like that...He has made some plays doing this though, but I just hate to see any player run in the opposite direction from where we're trying to go.

Except if you take that play, or rather that type of play away from him, then you also lose that amazing play of escape from a sack in the end zone, picking up a lose ball in the end zone and throwing it for an incompletion instead of a safety or touchdown for the competition

[vandammage13]

Except if you take that play, or rather that type of play away from him, then you also lose that amazing play of escape from a sack in the end zone, picking up a lose ball in the end zone and throwing it for an incompletion instead of a safety or touchdown for the competition

I understand that he's a playmaker, lgenf, I just don't like the backwards spin in the pocket (and the play you are referring to doesn't apply here, as he didn't do the spin there).

You shouldn't ever take away TT's ability to improvise and make plays. Coaches should give him that freedom IMO because he is a special talent, but Tim needs to take it upon himself to be smart about what he does back there at times.

As Spiderman's Uncle once said, "With great power comes great responsibility," and if the coaches give Tim the freedom to be himself then he needs to be responsible about it.

[Ravage!!!]

RIght now, he still needs a lot of work in how to sit in the pocket, how to step into the pocket and how to avoid out of the pocket. He's very good about running from the pocket, but he's not good about moving within the pocket to help his blocks. A couple of the sacks were simply a case of him not stepping up. One in particular, he had a while wide opn view ifhe just stepped up.

But... it is what it is.

[catfish]

RIght now, he still needs a lot of work in how to sit in the pocket, how to step into the pocket and how to avoid out of the pocket. He's very good about running from the pocket, but he's not good about moving within the pocket to help his blocks. A couple of the sacks were simply a case of him not stepping up. One in particular, he had a while wide opn view ifhe just stepped up.

But... it is what it is.

I agree, fairly typical for a young guy. If it improves great, if not probably need to move on

[BigDaddyBronco]

You know, most everyone looked at him as a project guy when he was drafted. He has improved faster than I thought he would considering the lockout and everything. I think he is on track to be pretty decent next year. At least he loves football and wants to get better, we could have drafted a JaMarcus Russell type.

[artie_dale]

You know, most everyone looked at him as a project guy when he was drafted. He has improved faster than I thought he would considering the lockout and everything. I think he is on track to be pretty decent next year. At least he loves football and wants to get better, we could have drafted a JaMarcus Russell type.

Yes, I concur. Good passes in the 1st & 4th qtr. If he can do that for all four, I'll be happy... er.

[Ravage!!!]

I WANT the kid to be our QB of the future, but I jus don't think he'll ever be the passer. Yeah, he's improved some, but this week reminded me of just how weak of a passer he is. I know he's young, and time to improve....which is what I'm HOPING for. But at the same time, I don't know of any weak passers coming out of college that turned into strong passers while in the NFL.

Here's to hope :beer:

[vandammage13]

I WANT the kid to be our QB of the future, but I jus don't think he'll ever be the passer. Yeah, he's improved some, but this week reminded me of just how weak of a passer he is. I know he's young, and time to improve....which is what I'm HOPING for. But at the same time, I don't know of any weak passers coming out of college that turned into strong passers while in the NFL.

Here's to hope :beer:

Just curious on your thoughts about last week reminding you how weak of a passer he is...

Care to elaborate?

[jlarsiii]

I WANT the kid to be our QB of the future, but I jus don't think he'll ever be the passer. Yeah, he's improved some, but this week reminded me of just how weak of a passer he is. I know he's young, and time to improve....which is what I'm HOPING for. But at the same time, I don't know of any weak passers coming out of college that turned into strong passers while in the NFL.

Here's to hope :beer:

Agreed. In particular I have a hard time understanding his throws to the right side of the field. The bulk of those throws are either in the dirt or sailed over the side-line out of bounds. I understand that his high throws out of bounds just look like dumpoffs to escape the sack when no one is open, and that maybe the occasional ball in the dirt is to avoid a possible pick as the announcers like to fondly state every time he does this.

What I don't get is why the bulk of his throws to the right side are one or the other instead of completions. Can he not snap his hips and get the ball out there? Can he not make reads to the right side of the field? I don't get it...

Everyone says he is protecting the ball, but come on. It seems like the majority of his throws are in the dirt or out of bounds, and you can't use that protection excuse for every throw over there. For example, if every throw in the dirt is to protect against a pick, then to me that means Tebow does a poor job of scanning the right side of the field for open receivers (or he just chooses to continue to throw it at a covered receiver on the right:confused:).

I think he has made progress during the season in general which is encouraging. Still, I cringe every time I see him throw the ball to the right because often it is short into the dirt or it is hitting the folks in the stands.

[Ravage!!!]

Just curious on your thoughts about last week reminding you how weak of a passer he is...

Care to elaborate?

Not really much to elaborate on. Tim is not an accurate passer, he's never been an accurate passer, and when playing the worst defense in the NFL and hitting 50% it shows again that he's not an accurate passer.

Yes, there were some nice throws made. Of course there were, and I'm not going to say that Tim NEVER makes a nice throw. Even the worst passers in NFL history make nice throws, or they wouldn't be in the NFL (and I'm not saying Tim is or will be the worst passer in NFL history). But in general, Tim is not accurate.

But like I said before. I WANT him to become our QB of the future because I like HIM, and think he would be great for the image of this team. A person can't help but enjoy the over-hype about a player when it entails the media constantly talking about my favorite team. But when you step back and just look at his passing, as an NFL QB, without the rest of the hype surrounding his name......its weak.

So, again, here's to hope that Tim can rise from being a weak passer to being a good passer. :beer:

[TXBRONC]

I'm still not sure. He has given me a lot to think about but I still don't know for sure. However, I also feel he's earned a longer look for next season.

[HammeredOut]

John Skelton went 5-1 as a starter, do you think they are sold on him in Arizona..

[catfish]

Not really much to elaborate on. Tim is not an accurate passer, he's never been an accurate passer, and when playing the worst defense in the NFL and hitting 50% it shows again that he's not an accurate passer.

Yes, there were some nice throws made. Of course there were, and I'm not going to say that Tim NEVER makes a nice throw. Even the worst passers in NFL history make nice throws, or they wouldn't be in the NFL (and I'm not saying Tim is or will be the worst passer in NFL history). But in general, Tim is not accurate.

But like I said before. I WANT him to become our QB of the future because I like HIM, and think he would be great for the image of this team. A person can't help but enjoy the over-hype about a player when it entails the media constantly talking about my favorite team. But when you step back and just look at his passing, as an NFL QB, without the rest of the hype surrounding his name......its weak.

So, again, here's to hope that Tim can rise from being a weak passer to being a good passer. :beer:

how would you rate him in comparison to Colt McCoy or Sam Bradford?

[catfish]

Agreed. In particular I have a hard time understanding his throws to the right side of the field. The bulk of those throws are either in the dirt or sailed over the side-line out of bounds. I understand that his high throws out of bounds just look like dumpoffs to escape the sack when no one is open, and that maybe the occasional ball in the dirt is to avoid a possible pick as the announcers like to fondly state every time he does this.

What I don't get is why the bulk of his throws to the right side are one or the other instead of completions. Can he not snap his hips and get the ball out there? Can he not make reads to the right side of the field? I don't get it...

Everyone says he is protecting the ball, but come on. It seems like the majority of his throws are in the dirt or out of bounds, and you can't use that protection excuse for every throw over there. For example, if every throw in the dirt is to protect against a pick, then to me that means Tebow does a poor job of scanning the right side of the field for open receivers (or he just chooses to continue to throw it at a covered receiver on the right:confused:).

I think he has made progress during the season in general which is encouraging. Still, I cringe every time I see him throw the ball to the right because often it is short into the dirt or it is hitting the folks in the stands.

statistically he is having a tough time throwing the sideline routes, he has a relatively high completion % to the right to the left and in the middle of the field. With trouble throwing to the sideline, left sideline especially. Coincidentally the sidleine routes are the ones that get called most

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/13200/tim-tebow

[jhildebrand]

I'm not sure what your point is jhil? All the discourse I hear regarding Flacco is basically it's time for him to shit or the Ravens need to start thinking about getting off the pot. I'm not getting exactly how Flacco's game is relevant to Tebow's....

Clearly my post was sarcastic. The point is the grass isn't always greener on the other side. People need to stop thinking it is. Flacco's game and his career is exactly what Tebow's detractors should be looking at.

Flacco, of Delaware fame, created a name for himself with fluid mechanics, great footwork, an arm. He drew comparisons to some pretty big Qb's of the past. Ultimately people looked more at the measuring tape than game tape. Always a big no no for me. If he was so great, why Delaware? :confused: You telling me a powerhouse like Maryland or Boston College or Perhaps a downtrodden Syracuse couldn't have used him? :confused: He went to Delaware for a reason. But I digress.

Flacco is failing in Baltimore. He has had ample time to improve. In fact, he has had everything Orton's defenders said he needed: a good running game and a defense.

So here it is: people want to ditch, even now, Tebow for a guy coming out of college who has no guarantees but can drop back nicely, who looks pretty throwing the ball, etc.... Mark my words, there will be a combine star that people fall in love with. The combine will raise his stock far more than its worth and more than his play deserved. He will be this year's Flacco.

This team prior to and with Tebow has a ton of holes! Tebow has done something Orton couldn't, help win and rally the team DESPITE those holes and his raw nature. It makes more sense to me to see how far you can ride that and if the kid can improve while filling those holes. The best thing about Tebow is he buys this current FO, one I happen to like a lot, A LOT OF TIME. In the NFL coaches and GM's generally get one chance to take a QB. If they (EFX) go out and do that right now, their clock starts ticking immediately.

[catfish]

Clearly my post was sarcastic. The point is the grass isn't always greener on the other side. People need to stop thinking it is. Flacco's game and his career is exactly what Tebow's detractors should be looking at.

Flacco, of Delaware fame, created a name for himself with fluid mechanics, great footwork, an arm. He drew comparisons to some pretty big Qb's of the past. Ultimately people looked more at the measuring tape than game tape. Always a big no no for me. If he was so great, why Delaware? :confused: You telling me a powerhouse like Maryland or Boston College or Perhaps a downtrodden Syracuse couldn't have used him? :confused: He went to Delaware for a reason. But I digress.

Flacco is failing in Baltimore. He has had ample time to improve. In fact, he has had everything Orton's defenders said he needed: a good running game and a defense.

So here it is: people want to ditch, even now, Tebow for a guy coming out of college who has no guarantees. Mark my words, there will be a combine star that people fall in love with. The combine will raise his stock far more than its worth and more than his play deserved. He will be this year's Flacco.

This team prior to and with Tebow has a ton of holes! Tebow has done something Orton couldn't, help win and rally the team DESPITE those holes. It makes more sense to me to see how far you can ride that and if the kid can improve while filling those holes. The best thing about Tebow is he buys this current FO, one I happen to like a lot, A LOT OF TIME. In the NFL coaches and GM's generally get one chance to take a QB. If they (EFX) go out and do that right now, their clock starts ticking immediately.

I'll give you the other side of that same coing. I live in the Tampa Bay area...people still bitch about Steve Young piss poor completion % etc while in TB, went to SF sat a few years and came out strong. Before TB had a SB to their name he was the one who got away. Not saying Tebow is Young, far from it, but you don't dump the guy with the hot hand

[jhildebrand]

I'll give you the other side of that same coing. I live in the Tampa Bay area...people still bitch about Steve Young piss poor completion % etc while in TB, went to SF sat a few years and came out strong. Before TB had a SB to their name he was the one who got away. Not saying Tebow is Young, far from it, but you don't dump the guy with the hot hand

Same with Favre in Atlanta.

When you have a 1st round pick, especially when there are extra picks thrown in as the case is with Teebs, you need to see what the guy can do.

We sat through how many games of George Foster, Jarvis Moss, Kyle Orton? :confused:

It wont hurt to give Tebow every opp to succeed while building the team around him. If at some point his progress plateau's then bring in a high draft pick QB-that way that kid will have a more likely opportunity to succeed, they wont have all the pressure on them.

People need to realize if this team shipped off Tebow and drafted a Landry Jones, Barkley, RG III (assuming they could) it would put an immense amount of pressure on the kid-Akili Smith David Carr type pressure. As I said the pressure on the FO grows too. If the losses start piling up again it could be mutiny!

[TT15Superman]

I know the play youre talking about....He's actually done that quite a few times and was fortunate that this was the only time a Lineman was there waiting for him.

Hopefully with more experience, he'll get more comfortable in the pocket and not spin backwards like that...He has made some plays doing this though, but I just hate to see any player run in the opposite direction from where we're trying to go.NE played Tebow the way Bama did in the '09 SEC CG. The linemen were taught NOT to go past Tebow. This way, he had no alleys to run through. He HAD to beat them with his arm. I hope McCoy learns that when THIS is the D-scheme, you throw and don't handcuff your QB with 22 throws against a high power offense.


the lord was not his shepard on that play.The Lord was in Oakland "watching" his sheep in a different way. Sometimes, you have to lose to know how to fix your weaknesses.

[Northman]

The Lord was in Oakland "watching" his sheep in a different way. Sometimes, you have to lose to know how to fix your weaknesses.

I dont necessarily like your takes but this one was a gem. Well done.

[rcsodak]

What about the vikings? They're pretty good, right?No AD and a 4gm rook qb?

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[rcsodak]

I appreciate your sarcasm.
FLACCO played better as a rookie! I have issues with his QB coach and his development and gameplans.
Well, he did have zorn as qb coach last year and was PISSED when they let him go.

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[Fullback32]

People need to realize if this team shipped off Tebow and drafted a Landry Jones, Barkley, RG III (assuming they could) it would put an immense amount of pressure on the kid-Akili Smith David Carr type pressure.

That is true, but...

I didn't watch too many Bengals games, so I don't know about Smith, but I did watch Carr. It has to be remembered that David Carr not only had the pressure of being a #1 pick, but the #1 pick of an expansion team and one whose line was getting the man KILLED - porous with no run game either. AFAIK, he still retains the dubious distinction of being the most sacked QB in NFL history. The man had no chance. I often wonder how he would have done had he been with a good team. Troy Aikman would have been a David Carr had the Cowboys not done something about that line, ya know?

I don't think a Carr comparison to any QB that Elway would try to get is accurate or fair. Should Elway decide to go that direction, any QB coming in will be in a much better situation than Carr found himself in: a more than servicable O-line, decent running game and a better than average defense.


how would you rate him in comparison to Colt McCoy or Sam Bradford?

I know that you weren't asking me CF, but I thought I'd chime in anyway. I'd take Sam Bradford any day as Broncos or Cowboys QB. Unfortunately, I fear that Sam Bradford will end up in the same way as Carr. A QB with great NFL potential is going to be wasted and used up by a pathetic Rams team with yet another horrible O-line. McD infulence I'm thinking. Shame that.

McCoy? Meh. Though I am a Longhorn myself, I wasn't sure he would succeed in the NFL quite frankly. I think he'll be a good backup at best. Sort of a Flutie type of guy.

[Ravage!!!]

jhil, where are you reading your college reports on players, because so far you keep talking about players coming out and giving them props in which I NEVER EVER heard before. Saying QBs that came out were "supposed to be great" when I never heard such ratings (Cam Newton for example). I remember that many thought that Flacco wasn't a first round QB, and felt Baltimore was over-reaching.

That said, I NEVER EVER have liked Flacco throwing the ball since the first year watching him play. So I'm not quite sure why you are using him as a comparison.

As far as cat's question as to comparing Tebow to Bradford and McCoy.. I can say that I haven't seen much of McCoy play. But I know, without a doubt, that Bradford is by far a superior passer. Doesn't take much watching to see that.

[catfish]

jhil, where are you reading your college reports on players, because so far you keep talking about players coming out and giving them props in which I NEVER EVER heard before. Saying QBs that came out were "supposed to be great" when I never heard such ratings (Cam Newton for example). I remember that many thought that Flacco wasn't a first round QB, and felt Baltimore was over-reaching.

That said, I NEVER EVER have liked Flacco throwing the ball since the first year watching him play. So I'm not quite sure why you are using him as a comparison.

As far as cat's question as to comparing Tebow to Bradford and McCoy.. I can say that I haven't seen much of McCoy play. But I know, without a doubt, that Bradford is by far a superior passer. Doesn't take much watching to see that.

Sam Bradford has a 53.5% completion % with a 6.1 YPA and 6 TD with 6 picks

Tebow has a 48.6% completion % with 6.7 YPA 11TDs and 2 picks.

McCoy is 57.2% completion% with 5.9 YPA 14 TD's and 11 picks

the only stat either of them are better than Tebow on is pass comp%...is that the stat that you think a QB should be measured on?

[Ravage!!!]

Sam Bradford has a 53.5% completion % with a 6.1 YPA and 6 TD with 6 picks

Tebow has a 48.6% completion % with 6.7 YPA 11TDs and 2 picks.

McCoy is 57.2% completion% with 5.9 YPA 14 TD's and 11 picks

the only stat either of them are better than Tebow on is pass comp%...is that the stat that you think a QB should be measured on?

You are just throwing numbers out. Stats are great for starting discussions, but terrible for ending them. Stats just don't tell the whole story, for as we've seen in prior discussions, one can choose the stats they feel is most important and simply ignore the rest. I NEVER think stats, alone, are a way to judge a QB.... and these stats just proved the point.

Bradford is FAR AND AWAY a much better passer than either one of them, no question about it. All you have to do is watch them play, and there isn't a single doubt as to who is the better passer. Bradford is asked to carry the team with his arm and given MANY more passes to throw (in an offense that is designed to throw the ball 40 times a game). The Broncos, on the other hand, do what they can to keep Tebow from throwing the ball.

[Joel]

Not really much to elaborate on. Tim is not an accurate passer, he's never been an accurate passer, and when playing the worst defense in the NFL and hitting 50% it shows again that he's not an accurate passer.

Yes, there were some nice throws made. Of course there were, and I'm not going to say that Tim NEVER makes a nice throw. Even the worst passers in NFL history make nice throws, or they wouldn't be in the NFL (and I'm not saying Tim is or will be the worst passer in NFL history). But in general, Tim is not accurate.

But like I said before. I WANT him to become our QB of the future because I like HIM, and think he would be great for the image of this team. A person can't help but enjoy the over-hype about a player when it entails the media constantly talking about my favorite team. But when you step back and just look at his passing, as an NFL QB, without the rest of the hype surrounding his name......its weak.

So, again, here's to hope that Tim can rise from being a weak passer to being a good passer. :beer:
I just don't see how anyone can say Tebow is inaccurate. I think you're glass is a little too half empty: Rather than dismissing Tebows many excellent throws on the grounds "even bad QBs throw an occasional good pass," consider that even GOOD QBs throw an occasional BAD pass (and that pass PROTECTION often makes more difference than passer skill.) Neil O'Donnell has the lowest career Int% in history (2.1,) but lost his only Super Bowl because he kept throwing picks (10.7%.)

Tebow needs work in several very teachable areas, as I've already stated: He needs to run through progressions at game speed rather than "eventually," needs better field vision (and less locking on single receivers) to aid that task and needs to learn when to just throw it away against a blitz rather than trying to "make something happen." Until our pass protection improves that last quality will be vital.

Yet all of those are those are improvements that only require intelligence, commitment and good coaching, all of which Tebow has. There is no reason those few but important problems can't be solved, and every reason to expect they will be. Meanwhile, when people say he's inaccurate or can't throw deep it just leaves me scratching my head wondering if they bothered to watch him play before condemning him, because the former is no longer a problem and the latter never was.

So here it is: people want to ditch, even now, Tebow for a guy coming out of college who has no guarantees. Mark my words, there will be a combine star that people fall in love with. The combine will raise his stock far more than its worth and more than his play deserved. He will be this year's Flacco.

This team prior to and with Tebow has a ton of holes! Tebow has done something Orton couldn't, help win and rally the team DESPITE those holes. It makes more sense to me to see how far you can ride that and if the kid can improve while filling those holes. The best thing about Tebow is he buys this current FO, one I happen to like a lot, A LOT OF TIME. In the NFL coaches and GM's generally get one chance to take a QB. If they (EFX) go out and do that right now, their clock starts ticking immediately.
This is the most bizarre aspect of the whole debate: The same people (which long included me) who howled about dumping a high performing second year QB (Cutler) for a highly touted but completely unknown high draft pick (Tebow) now demand we do the same thing all over again, sacrificing all the same known assets for all the same unknown assets AND LIABILITIES. Do that a few more times and Denver could become known as the team that drafts a new FUTURE great QB every couple years so they can trade the LAST one just as he starts yielding big dividends.

Meanwhile, as you rightly note, we still have a ton of other large holes that desperately need filling (e.g. without better line play, particularly in pass protection, drafting another potentially great QB accomplishes little.)

[artie_dale]

Think of Tebow's accurcy like a sound wave that peeks at +50 but also dips into -100 (hits his target vs way missing his target).

[TXBRONC]

John Skelton went 5-1 as a starter, do you think they are sold on him in Arizona..

Who cares what the Cardinals think of Skelton that has no value to the Broncos.

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[catfish]

Think of Tebow's accurcy like a sound wave that peeks at +50 but also dips into -100 (hits his target vs way missing his target).

not a horrible way to look at it, I just don't think he is missing as bad as he used to or any worse than any other average QB in the league(comparing him to the elites really isn't fair at this point in his career)....the numbers for December are far from bad

[Ravage!!!]

I just don't see how anyone can say Tebow is inaccurate. I think you're glass is a little too half empty: Rather than dismissing Tebows many excellent throws on the grounds "even bad QBs throw an occasional good pass," consider that even GOOD QBs throw an occasional BAD pass (and that pass PROTECTION often makes more difference than passer skill.) Neil O'Donnell has the lowest career Int% in history (2.1,) but lost his only Super Bowl because he kept throwing picks (10.7%.)

Tebow needs work in several very teachable areas, as I've already stated: He needs to run through progressions at game speed rather than "eventually," needs better field vision (and less locking on single receivers) to aid that task and needs to learn when to just throw it away against a blitz rather than trying to "make something happen." Until our pass protection improves that last quality will be vital.

Yet all of those are those are improvements that only require intelligence, commitment and good coaching, all of which Tebow has. There is no reason those few but important problems can't be solved, and every reason to expect they will be. Meanwhile, when people say he's inaccurate or can't throw deep it just leaves me scratching my head wondering if they bothered to watch him play before condemning him, because the former is no longer a problem and the latter never was.

But he's not just throwing the occasional "bad" pass, he's occasionally throwing the good pass.

I'm trying to see Tebow as the future of this franchise, and I know as the future QB of this team, you MUST be an accurate passer. Thats the NFL, thats what its about, and there have been MANY that have tried to be "ok" at passing and make up for it with running. None "turned" into a good passer.

I HOPE that Tebow will be the first, but I have a hard time buying that despite my true wishes. I just don't see Tebow EVER being the kind of passer that you need to be successful in this league. He is an inaccurate passer. Thats not being mean, or hateful, or glass half-empty. Thats just calling it how I see it.


(e.g. without better line play, particularly in pass protection, drafting another potentially great QB accomplishes little.)

Although I get your point you were making to jhil, this isn't accurate. For one, a good QB makes his OL better. FOr two, what you accomplish is having a great QB (if we go by the example that you just gave). Tebow does NOT help his OL because he doesn't know how to move in the pocket. There were two sacks that I remember (against NE), that were caused because Tebow simply didn't move within the pocket itself, that would have helped out his OL. THats not to say Tebow can't improve on that, but he's never been a pocket passer.

Point being, that you ALWAYS gain by drafting a great QB, no matter how bad your OL or defense is. The rest of the team always falls into place once you have that presence behind center.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Speaking in accuracy terms, Tebow throws the ball away a lot to prevent throwing ints. About half of the incompletes you see in a givien game are straight up throw-aways.

How many young QBs try too hard and won't just throw it away if it's not there? They've actually started showing more replays recently of Tebow's incompletes and actually praising him for throwing the ball away because the receivers on that play were blanketed.

I think his accuracy is coming along nicely. The biggest problem with his game I can see right now, is that he's always looking for the big-strike. He looks to swing for the fences when sometimes, a single or a bunt will do. Tebow needs to learn to check down a little more.

Most of his incompletes of late seem to stem from him looking downfield and waiting for one of the deeper routes to uncover. This also makes him look like he's holding on to the ball too long. Many times, there is a RB open underneath for at least a short gain. Tim still needs to learn that sometimes you've got to take what the defense gives and if it's a check down, take it. That will help us not get into 2nd or 3rd and 10 so much.

I'm not saying turn him into a Sam Bradford/Kyle Orton check down machine where he's consistently throwing it 4 yards on 3rd and ten, but throwing a 4 yard check down on 2nd and 10 is preferable to beaching it or throwing it out of bounds and being faced with 3rd and ten...

[Ravage!!!]

Speaking in accuracy terms, Tebow throws the ball away a lot to prevent throwing ints. About half of the incompletes you see in a givien game are straight up throw-aways.
Ok, for one, I call total BS on this. I think the commentator the other night exaggerated this, and I think its absolutely not true. I know Tebow doesn't want to throw the INT, but if he can't put the ball to a spot that allows the receiver to make a play on the ball, then he's NOT helping his team. QBs that throw the ball, aren't "scared" to throw the INT every time a defender is simply near.

So I think this is exaggerated and untrue.


Most of his incompletes of late seem to stem from him looking downfield and waiting for one of the deeper routes to uncover. This also makes him look like he's holding on to the ball too long.
Many times there are mid wrs open as well. Tim DOES hold onto the ball too long, and its not because he's looking for the downfield ball. The reason he holds onto the ball too long is because, as you explained in your prior paragraph, he's looking for the WIDE open guy so that he doesn't throw the INT. Right now, he doesn't know how to anticipate holes and how to throw to the "window." He's always been able to throw to the wide open receiver.

Now the downfield, long, ball a is a different story. THats a safe throw because you can generally put that ball up where only one person has a "Real" shot at catching it. So even when the defender is on the receiver, its safe to give it a launch.


Many times, there is a RB open underneath for at least a short gain. Tim still needs to learn that sometimes you've got to take what the defense gives and if it's a check down, take it. That will help us not get into 2nd or 3rd and 10 so much.
agreed, but that comes with time in the NFL. This is not something that I'm talking about when I'm referring to him being an inaccurate thrower. This is just inexperience in being in a system that has more than one read.

[Joel]

But he's not just throwing the occasional "bad" pass, he's occasionally throwing the good pass.
You say, "potato"....

I'm trying to see Tebow as the future of this franchise, and I know as the future QB of this team, you MUST be an accurate passer. Thats the NFL, thats what its about, and there have been MANY that have tried to be "ok" at passing and make up for it with running. None "turned" into a good passer.
Apart from Randall Cunningham, Steve Young, Steve McNair, Donovan McNabb and Michael Vick (to name just those I recall from my own lifetime,) no, not one. ;) I agree with you on the need, but not the impossibility.

I HOPE that Tebow will be the first, but I have a hard time buying that despite my true wishes. I just don't see Tebow EVER being the kind of passer that you need to be successful in this league. He is an inaccurate passer. Thats not being mean, or hateful, or glass half-empty. Thats just calling it how I see it.
I expect nothing else, but suggest you look more closely and objectively. Remember, a couple months ago I wanted us to pull Orton and replace him with Quinn, and not because I thought him a good QB. Just the best QB we had. To quote Keynes, "When the facts change, I change my mind; what do you do, sir?"

Although I get your point you were making to jhil, this isn't accurate. For one, a good QB makes his OL better. FOr two, what you accomplish is having a great QB (if we go by the example that you just gave). Tebow does NOT help his OL because he doesn't know how to move in the pocket. There were two sacks that I remember (against NE), that were caused because Tebow simply didn't move within the pocket itself, that would have helped out his OL. THats not to say Tebow can't improve on that, but he's never been a pocket passer.

Point being, that you ALWAYS gain by drafting a great QB, no matter how bad your OL or defense is. The rest of the team always falls into place once you have that presence behind center.
Well, if you draft a better QB than you had you always gain regardless of the other positions; the same is true of drafting a better RB, SS or kick returner, but without a solid line the advantage of a better QB is often even more marginal than it would be at any other position. As Fullback32 notes, what did the Texans gain by drafting Carr with no line to protect him? Mari Williams et al. thanks to high picks in many future drafts, but not much else, and they could've gotten just as much by throwing me out there.

Sure, a QB with good pocket presence helps his line, and his whole team, and Tebow needs more of that. When I talk about quick progressions, field vision and getting rid of the ball under pressure a lot of that boils down to pocket presence. However, while we can go down the list of things Tebow did wrong with multiple defenders in the backfield on this play, that play and this other play, at a certain point the question ceases to be "why does he do things wrong with multiple defenders in the backfield?" and becomes "why are there so many defenders in the backfield so often?" I know Phil Simms thought Tebow shouldn't have spun out of the collapsing pocket directly into a Patriot tackler right behind him, but he wasn't down on the field with Vince Wilfork; when he was, he always had much better protection than Tebow does.

I can sympathize with Henry Clays sentiment that he'd "rather be right than President," but those who would emulate him should recall that, in the final analysis, he was neither.

Speaking in accuracy terms, Tebow throws the ball away a lot to prevent throwing ints. About half of the incompletes you see in a givien game are straight up throw-aways.

How many young QBs try too hard and won't just throw it away if it's not there? They've actually started showing more replays recently of Tebow's incompletes and actually praising him for throwing the ball away because the receivers on that play were blanketed.
Montana (the godfather of West Coast QBs) was praised throughout his career for that very thing, especially in the red zone, and still is. Don't throw picks forcing passes into double coverage: Protect the possession and live to fight another day. For a counter example, see: Favre, Brett; Cutler, Jay.

I think his accuracy is coming along nicely. The biggest problem with his game I can see right now, is that he's always looking for the big-strike. He looks to swing for the fences when sometimes, a single or a bunt will do. Tebow needs to learn to check down a little more.

Most of his incompletes of late seem to stem from him looking downfield and waiting for one of the deeper routes to uncover. This also makes him look like he's holding on to the ball too long. Many times, there is a RB open underneath for at least a short gain. Tim still needs to learn that sometimes you've got to take what the defense gives and if it's a check down, take it. That will help us not get into 2nd or 3rd and 10 so much.

I'm not saying turn him into a Sam Bradford/Kyle Orton check down machine where he's consistently throwing it 4 yards on 3rd and ten, but throwing a 4 yard check down on 2nd and 10 is preferable to beaching it or throwing it out of bounds and being faced with 3rd and ten...
I hadn't thought of it that way, but it makes a lot of sense. Part of that may be because I don't like throwing lots of passes <10 yards; I've always felt that if one accepts the added risks that come with passing it should generally be accompanied by correspondingly higher rewards. Sometimes though, defences aware of and even paranoid about the deep ball can take it off the table, in which case QBs are often forced to take what they're given, and great QBs like Brady and Manning have made very successful careers out of doing just that. Certainly it doesn't help a team to continually take sacks over 7 yard gains because the QB is always looking for a 40 yard bomb that's seldom there.

[bcbronc]

Hmmm, this isn't directed at HP56, but there were a lot of people that panned Orton because he'd throw a ball away. The fanbois would always be saying "Tebow would have made something happen with his legs". Now throwing the ball away is back to being a positive for those same folk. Weird how that happens.

There's a fine line between reckless, smart and over-cautious. It's a bit counter-intuitive, but a young QB needs to be reckless sometimes so he can eventually be smart most of the time. A young QB needs to learn the limits of his arm, and the only way to do that is to sometimes try too tight a window. I don't want Tebow to be so afraid to throw a pic that he won't try to put the ball into tight spaces.

One throw I remember from NE, although not sure when it happened...it was a deep out to Royal on the right sideline that Tebow threw short. There was a CB in the area, but looked like a good ball to the outside would have been catchable. Maybe it was just a missed throw, but I remember wondering at the time if TT was too worried about throwing a pic-6 so he intentionally grounded it.

It's tough though, cuz we're looking to win our division and just don't have much margin for error. If Tebow does push his arm and goes too far, it could cost us a game and a playoff spot. As things lie right now, I guess I'd rather Tebow bounce the pass than make the mistake. It would have been nice to see Tebow try to squeeze a few balls into tight coverages in the 2nd half vs NE, we were down far enough that another turnover wasn't going to mean much.

He did make some great throws, and overall I'd say it was his best throwing day as a pro so far even if his accuracy did slip a bit as the game got out of reach imo.

[catfish]

Hmmm, this isn't directed at HP56, but there were a lot of people that panned Orton because he'd throw a ball away. The fanbois would always be saying "Tebow would have made something happen with his legs". Now throwing the ball away is back to being a positive for those same folk. Weird how that happens.

There's a fine line between reckless, smart and over-cautious. It's a bit counter-intuitive, but a young QB needs to be reckless sometimes so he can eventually be smart most of the time. A young QB needs to learn the limits of his arm, and the only way to do that is to sometimes try too tight a window. I don't want Tebow to be so afraid to throw a pic that he won't try to put the ball into tight spaces.

One throw I remember from NE, although not sure when it happened...it was a deep out to Royal on the right sideline that Tebow threw short. There was a CB in the area, but looked like a good ball to the outside would have been catchable. Maybe it was just a missed throw, but I remember wondering at the time if TT was too worried about throwing a pic-6 so he intentionally grounded it.

It's tough though, cuz we're looking to win our division and just don't have much margin for error. If Tebow does push his arm and goes too far, it could cost us a game and a playoff spot. As things lie right now, I guess I'd rather Tebow bounce the pass than make the mistake. It would have been nice to see Tebow try to squeeze a few balls into tight coverages in the 2nd half vs NE, we were down far enough that another turnover wasn't going to mean much.

He did make some great throws, and overall I'd say it was his best throwing day as a pro so far even if his accuracy did slip a bit as the game got out of reach imo.

I would also agree with him being more daring if the team wasn't in the position to make the playoffs...if they were in a situation like the Vikings...nothing to lose, hell go out there and throw it 45 times a game see what you got, but with the possibility that he takes a chance on a pass that he doesn't really need to and gets an int that eliminates the Broncos from the playoff picture I would rather he keep playing conservative. Ill take 3 additional incompletions a game over 1 additional pick all year. Being in playoff contention puts him in a tough spot development wise. Not often a player can learn on the job at the QB position while his team is winning

[jhildebrand]

That is true, but...

I didn't watch too many Bengals games, so I don't know about Smith, but I did watch Carr. It has to be remembered that David Carr not only had the pressure of being a #1 pick, but the #1 pick of an expansion team and one whose line was getting the man KILLED - porous with no run game either. AFAIK, he still retains the dubious distinction of being the most sacked QB in NFL history. The man had no chance. I often wonder how he would have done had he been with a good team. Troy Aikman would have been a David Carr had the Cowboys not done something about that line, ya know?

I don't think a Carr comparison to any QB that Elway would try to get is accurate or fair. Should Elway decide to go that direction, any QB coming in will be in a much better situation than Carr found himself in: a more than servicable O-line, decent running game and a better than average defense.



I know that you weren't asking me CF, but I thought I'd chime in anyway. I'd take Sam Bradford any day as Broncos or Cowboys QB. Unfortunately, I fear that Sam Bradford will end up in the same way as Carr. A QB with great NFL potential is going to be wasted and used up by a pathetic Rams team with yet another horrible O-line. McD infulence I'm thinking. Shame that.

McCoy? Meh. Though I am a Longhorn myself, I wasn't sure he would succeed in the NFL quite frankly. I think he'll be a good backup at best. Sort of a Flutie type of guy.

Wait a minute on the horrible Rams O line? :confused: They have 3 1st round picks IIRC on the O line and a 2nd and 3rd rounder as well. It can't be that bad. I chalk the sacks up to McD's "system." Long developing pass plays.

Tying it back to the Broncos, Cutler was sacked 11 times the last year here and we were told constantly that this was going to be an excellent O line for a long time. Fast forward a year to Orton and McDaniels and we were told this O line was garbage and needed a ton of work and in come Beadles and Walton. So which is it? :confused:

As far as David Carr goes yes his line was bad. The team was bad. This team prior to Tebow starting looked as bad! Not only are there a ton of holes but depth is a major issue as well. For some reason those issues led to losses with Orton but are wins with Tebow. That is what I keep talking about the blessing (no punn intended) Tebow is. Winning takes the heat and pressure off the FO to a degree. It also allows the team to build at other positions. If EFX were to draft a QB in the 1st, especially trade for one, the pressure is on the QB to come in and win on a team that has holes. There will be no allowable excuses becasue Tebow won with the same team, all the holes, and being extremely deficient from a technical standpoint (as we are told).

Why take that chance? :confused: Why trade picks that could be used on a line to protect your QBOF on a QB that you would have to start but have no real protections for him. It sets up like a david carr situation.

[jhildebrand]

You are just throwing numbers out. Stats are great for starting discussions, but terrible for ending them. Stats just don't tell the whole story, for as we've seen in prior discussions, one can choose the stats they feel is most important and simply ignore the rest. I NEVER think stats, alone, are a way to judge a QB.... and these stats just proved the point.

Bradford is FAR AND AWAY a much better passer than either one of them, no question about it. All you have to do is watch them play, and there isn't a single doubt as to who is the better passer. Bradford is asked to carry the team with his arm and given MANY more passes to throw (in an offense that is designed to throw the ball 40 times a game). The Broncos, on the other hand, do what they can to keep Tebow from throwing the ball.

Wait a minute, Bradford may be in a system to throw more passes BUT we also know from watching this so called "system" that it thrives on short bubble screens and dump offs to the backs i.e. High completion percentage passes. So why is Bradford's completion percentage still so low? :confused:

[bcbronc]

Well, if you draft a better QB than you had you always gain regardless of the other positions; the same is true of drafting a better RB, SS or kick returner,

but if you draft a better QB, Tebow can take care of the other three positions. :yo:


but without a solid line the advantage of a better QB is often even more marginal than it would be at any other position.


completely wrong. The generic "better" QB is going to help the line with better presnap adjustments, quicker reads, and quicker release. Because he's "better" he'll probably be better at moving in the pocket which also helps the OL. An average QB can make an average OL look bad, but a great QB can make an average OL look world class.


"why does he do things wrong with multiple defenders in the backfield?" and becomes "why are there so many defenders in the backfield so often?"


at least some of the time it's because he took too long in the pocket. If an OL is giving a QB 3, 4, 5 seconds, that should be enough. If a defender gets through at that point, it's hard to lay blame on the blocker.

Yes, there were plays where the pressure was 100% on the blocking. But there were just as many plays where Tebow had enough time and either no one got open or Tebow didn't find them.


Montana (the godfather of West Coast QBs) was praised throughout his career for that very thing, especially in the red zone, and still is. Don't throw picks forcing passes into double coverage: Protect the possession and live to fight another day. For a counter example, see: Favre, Brett; Cutler, Jay.

Unless you're Orton. He should always be able to make a play. :lol:


I've always felt that if one accepts the added risks that come with passing it should generally be accompanied by correspondingly higher rewards.

added risks? We've had 4 TOs in the past 2 games, 3 fumbles 1 pic, two fumbles coming on running plays. I doubt there's more INTs thrown on <10 yard passes in a season than fumbles. And then consider defensive holding, pass interference, illegal contact and roughing the passer (I'd expect quick passes to lead to more RtP calls due to frustration of always almost getting there) compared to no run-specific penalties. Face-masking probably occurs more vs the run, but obviously can happen to WRs too. Offensive holding impacts both run and pass. You can throw an incompletion, but your typical NFL passer completes nearly 2 of 3 passes no matter how far, so you'd expect <10 yards to be a higher comp%. Besides, a run for no gain is the same as an incompletion, and a 1-2 yard gain isn't much better on 1st down.

What do you see as added risks in the short passing game Joel?

[jhildebrand]

jhil, where are you reading your college reports on players, because so far you keep talking about players coming out and giving them props in which I NEVER EVER heard before. Saying QBs that came out were "supposed to be great" when I never heard such ratings (Cam Newton for example). I remember that many thought that Flacco wasn't a first round QB, and felt Baltimore was over-reaching.

That said, I NEVER EVER have liked Flacco throwing the ball since the first year watching him play. So I'm not quite sure why you are using him as a comparison.

As far as cat's question as to comparing Tebow to Bradford and McCoy.. I can say that I haven't seen much of McCoy play. But I know, without a doubt, that Bradford is by far a superior passer. Doesn't take much watching to see that.

Flacco drew comparisons to being the next big Ben, similar to Gannon (who at the time was just coming off a SB and looking very good for the raiders and gruden). ESPN insiders, Kiper, McShay, and many others moved him to the 5th QB of that class just off the senior bowl and combine alone.

What they don't tell you is the same Flacco transferred to DE in part because he couldn't beat out Tyler Palko. YES THAT Tyler Palko lol:

It doesn't end with Flacco either. I could add Sanchez. How has that worked for NYJ? Alex Smith-he was far and away the "most NFL ready QB." How is that going prior to Harbaugh's arrival?

You know what's funny? People call this a passing league. Brady averaged 22-23 passes per game in their first 3 super bowls. Think about that for a minute. Smith looks better in SF BUT Harbaugh doesn't have him throwing as much.

[bcbronc]

Wait a minute, Bradford may be in a system to throw more passes BUT we also know from watching this so called "system" that it thrives on short bubble screens and dump offs to the backs i.e. High completion percentage passes. So why is Bradford's completion percentage still so low? :confused:

10/10/2011 WR Danny Amendola placed on reserve/Injured list
10/17/2011 WR Mike Sims-Walker released
11/19/2011 T Rodger Saffold placed on reserve/injured
11/09/2011WR Mark Clayton activated from Reserve-PUP
11/24/2011 WR Mark Clayton placed on reserve/injured
11/25/2011 T Jason Smith placed on reserve/injured
12/07/2011 G Jacob Bell placed on reserve/injured

Could have something to do with it. I'll also add it's a complicated offense with no offseason and Bradford has been limited in practice for a while with the dreaded high ankle sprain.

[BroncoJoe]

I think we should rename this site BroncosNovels.com

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[jhildebrand]

completely wrong. The generic "better" QB is going to help the line with better presnap adjustments, quicker reads, and quicker release. Because he's "better" he'll probably be better at moving in the pocket which also helps the OL. An average QB can make an average OL look bad, but a great QB can make an average OL look world class.


But this was the argument that was used by the Orton supporters to stick with him. How did that help. We were told Tebow, lacking all of those qualities, would make the team look far worse than they already did!

I said the O line would look better with Tebow and so would the RB's. So far I would think that is closer to being right than the prior.

The bottom line here, at least for me, is there are no guarantees! Many Qb's were said to be better than Dalton. But Dalton, who I liked predraft the most, looks like the best. Your line, and Rav's, is a Cam Newton should make his line better. Bradford should be making his line better. But in the next breath we are told they aren't as good because of their O line. So which is it? :confused:

We have a known asset, at least a good baseline, with Tebow. We know the team can find ways to win with him. Why trade that for even more unknowns when there are already so many holes to fill?

[jhildebrand]

I think we should rename this site BroncosNovels.com

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

I tend to be long winded. :D

My bad.

I apologize.

[jhildebrand]

10/10/2011 WR Danny Amendola placed on reserve/Injured list
10/17/2011 WR Mike Sims-Walker released
11/19/2011 T Rodger Saffold placed on reserve/injured
11/09/2011WR Mark Clayton activated from Reserve-PUP
11/24/2011 WR Mark Clayton placed on reserve/injured
11/25/2011 T Jason Smith placed on reserve/injured
12/07/2011 G Jacob Bell placed on reserve/injured

Could have something to do with it. I'll also add it's a complicated offense with no offseason and Bradford has been limited in practice for a while with the dreaded high ankle sprain.

Nobody wanted to hear the injury excuse after Cutler's 08 season and missing the PO's. :lol:

Injuries weren't an excuse for Rodgers and the Pack last year.

New scheme, new coach, new players? Really?

Again, I contend Bradford's #'s and regression are due in large part to McD. It doesn't take a top flight WR to catch bubble screen after bubble screen.

[BroncoJoe]

I tend to be long winded. :D

My bad.

I apologize.

I was 1/2 joking. A lot of you are submitting lengthy posts I simply don't have the time, or in some cases desire to read.

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[jhildebrand]

I was 1/2 joking. A lot of you are submitting lengthy posts I simply don't have the time, or in some cases desire to read.

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

I know the feeling. I tend to be long winded as I said. No offense was taken. It is easy to be burned out from the same ol talk, too. I was and now I am not.

[catfish]

but if you draft a better QB, Tebow can take care of the other three positions. :yo:



completely wrong. The generic "better" QB is going to help the line with better presnap adjustments, quicker reads, and quicker release. Because he's "better" he'll probably be better at moving in the pocket which also helps the OL. An average QB can make an average OL look bad, but a great QB can make an average OL look world class.



at least some of the time it's because he took too long in the pocket. If an OL is giving a QB 3, 4, 5 seconds, that should be enough. If a defender gets through at that point, it's hard to lay blame on the blocker.

Yes, there were plays where the pressure was 100% on the blocking. But there were just as many plays where Tebow had enough time and either no one got open or Tebow didn't find them.



Unless you're Orton. He should always be able to make a play. :lol:



added risks? We've had 4 TOs in the past 2 games, 3 fumbles 1 pic, two fumbles coming on running plays. I doubt there's more INTs thrown on <10 yard passes in a season than fumbles. And then consider defensive holding, pass interference, illegal contact and roughing the passer (I'd expect quick passes to lead to more RtP calls due to frustration of always almost getting there) compared to no run-specific penalties. Face-masking probably occurs more vs the run, but obviously can happen to WRs too. Offensive holding impacts both run and pass. You can throw an incompletion, but your typical NFL passer completes nearly 2 of 3 passes no matter how far, so you'd expect <10 yards to be a higher comp%. Besides, a run for no gain is the same as an incompletion, and a 1-2 yard gain isn't much better on 1st down.

What do you see as added risks in the short passing game Joel?

I think Joel was referring to the average risk of a fumble being lower across the league than the risk of an interception especially when you are looking at a QB that is not a seasoned Vet.

A run for no gain is not the same as an incomplete pass if you are playing ball control. If your goal is to make the other teams offense sit on the sidelines while you wear out their D. A 1-2 yd run is better than an incomplete short pass for the same reason plus 3rd and 6 although not great is better that 3rd and 10.


The danger of a short passing game is (IMO) if the corner jumps the route on a 1-3 yd pass to the outside he is in space and most likely it is going for 6. If a RB fumbles at the line most likely you get a fat guy or a LB falling on it and give your D a chance to stonewall their O.

I have no numbers to back this next statement up but it seems to me that there are more highlights of pick 6's than there are of fumbles returned for a TD. Much tougher to pick the ball up off the ground and make a play than it is to catch the ball on the run in the opposite direction and make something happen.

Taking 4 turnovers in the last 2 games as proof of anything is not wise, Big Ben threw 3 picks last night, doesn't mean he shouldn't pass the ball. Historically play for play running the ball is safer than passing the ball as far as turnovers go

edit: also pass completion% is highly dependant on pass distance, the average qb completes

75% behind the line
60% 1-10 yds
50% 10-20 yds
30% 20-30
15% 30-40
<10% greater

obviously some throw a better deep ball than others..these number are from Sanchez #16 in passer rating

guess who throws the highest % attempts over 15 yds in the air

[Fullback32]

Wait a minute on the horrible Rams O line? :confused: They have 3 1st round picks IIRC on the O line and a 2nd and 3rd rounder as well. It can't be that bad. I chalk the sacks up to McD's "system." Long developing pass plays.

Which is why I said, "McD influence I think."


Tying it back to the Broncos, Cutler was sacked 11 times the last year here and we were told constantly that this was going to be an excellent O line for a long time. Fast forward a year to Orton and McDaniels and we were told this O line was garbage and needed a ton of work and in come Beadles and Walton. So which is it? :confused:

Remains to be seen, but they are, at the very least, a serviceable O-line. They are playing well for the most part. I think some of the scrambling and sacks have more to do with TT not seeing open receivers and holding onto the ball too long. If he corrects that, I think we'll see this line to be better than some realize.


As far as David Carr goes yes his line was bad. The team was bad. This team prior to Tebow starting looked as bad! Not only are there a ton of holes but depth is a major issue as well. For some reason those issues led to losses with Orton but are wins with Tebow. That is what I keep talking about the blessing (no punn intended) Tebow is. Winning takes the heat and pressure off the FO to a degree. It also allows the team to build at other positions. If EFX were to draft a QB in the 1st, especially trade for one, the pressure is on the QB to come in and win on a team that has holes. There will be no allowable excuses becasue Tebow won with the same team, all the holes, and being extremely deficient from a technical standpoint (as we are told).

Why does the team succeed with TT and not Orton? I chalk that up to the coaching staff in large part. Fox and staff have done a really good job of adjusting the offense to TTs skill set. This is not the same offense Orton played in. Had Fox insisted in trying to fit the round peg into the square hole and kept Tebow in the Orton oriented offense, the calls of "start Quinn" would be reverberating throughout Bronco Land. Of course TT and company had to execute this offense and, obviously, have done a more than adequate job.


Why take that chance? :confused: Why trade picks that could be used on a line to protect your QBOF on a QB that you would have to start but have no real protections for him. It sets up like a david carr situation.

Not sure JE will draft a QB based on what was said today, but if he does, I think the coaching staff will once again adjust to yet a different skill set and make it work. There is a basis for success with a more traditional QB should that happen, with, as you mentioned, some depth holes to fill. I don't think it is a worry though. I just hope that TT has the innate skills to take advantage of the intensive coaching he will receive in the off-season.

[Joel]

but if you draft a better QB, Tebow can take care of the other three positions. :yo:
No, no, we're going to TRADE Tebow for the Patriots starting offensive line and the #1 pick to get Luck. :first:

completely wrong. The generic "better" QB is going to help the line with better presnap adjustments, quicker reads, and quicker release. Because he's "better" he'll probably be better at moving in the pocket which also helps the OL. An average QB can make an average OL look bad, but a great QB can make an average OL look world class.
The generic "better" QB has been thrown to the wolves behind those awful lines more times than I can count. Carr probably isn't even the most recent example, but it's hard to say because those situations tend to short circuit careers due to injury or aborted development. Testaverde was the toast of FL when he won the Heisman at Miami and got drafted by the Bucs; by the end of his first year they had billboards of their own up mocking his colorblindness. Four years later they booed him out of town (that was still long enough to become their all time leading passer, which he remains today) and he bounced around the League the rest of his career, never really recovering from the shell shock. Fortunately, the Bucs had relieved themselves of that disaster and managed to go an impressive 24-40 over the next four years.

QBs are overrated. Badly. They are the most important offensive player, but the offensive line as a whole is FAR more important, and while a great QB can make a marginal line look decent, great lines routinely make sub-marginal QBs look stellar (I bet Testaverde would have killed for the kind of protection Dilfer had once Dungy was coaching the Bucs.) I can think of MANY average to poor QBs (Bradshaw, Starr, Griese and Simms come most readily to mind) with great careers and even multiple Super Bowls thanks to great lines. I can't think of any QBs, even truly great ones, who did more than occasionally make early playoff exits behind bad lines. Tarkenton probably did better than any, but even that was only good enough for an 0-3 Super Bowl record (to be fair, several of the teams he faced in the playoffs or Super Bowl are regarded as perhaps the best ever.) A great QB can help a poor line with presnap adjustments, quick reads and quick releases, but a great offensive line makes all those things unnecessary and (this may be the biggest thing) helps even poor backs get first downs that often make PASSING ITSELF unnecessary. A QB may not look like a star handing off 30 times a game, but if he's 12-4 he probably won't care.

at least some of the time it's because he took too long in the pocket. If an OL is giving a QB 3, 4, 5 seconds, that should be enough. If a defender gets through at that point, it's hard to lay blame on the blocker.
Three seconds is enough? Seriously? Bearing in mind that even the best WRs run a 40 in about 4.2 WITHOUT pads? Count that out in your head: One-one thousand, two-one thousand, three-one thousand THROW! If a defender gets through the line and to the QB in THAT time (especially in a shotgun,) yes, I lay the blame squarely on the blocker who didn't do what he's well paid to do. Sign me up to make half a million a year missing blocks. Flip side, give almost any NFL QB--even the third string bench warmer--6, 7 or 8 seconds and there'll be open receivers for him EVERYWHERE.

That's not to say I don't think there were a few times Tebow took too long in the pocket, and there are still a few plays every game where I think he's too quick to tuck it away and run. However, there were MANY plays Sunday where he was clearly just trying to scramble free long enough to get his feet under him and throw, and just never had the chance to square his body to the line or look downfield and find a man. The play where the Pats sent 5 blitzers and Tebow went down in a heap under 4 of them didn't happen because he stayed in the pocket too long or left it trying to make something happen (and, really, guys, which is it: Is he too quick to leave the pocket or does he stay in it too long? It CAN'T be both.) There were also a number of plays where he was forced out of the pocket and wound up sacked anyway. The play in the end zone where the Pats came through the line, knocked the ball out of his hand and he managed to pick it up then throw standing on the end line; does the line get a pass for that, too? Sorry, man, but I can't help feeling Six Flags would be out of business if they gave away as many free passes as you give our line.

Yes, there were plays where the pressure was 100% on the blocking. But there were just as many plays where Tebow had enough time and either no one got open or Tebow didn't find them.
I might be able to buy that exactly as stated:

Plays Tebow missed the open man+Plays there WAS no open man=Plays the line didn't give him enough time to find one.

Where does that indicate we need the most improvement?

Unless you're Orton. He should always be able to make a play. :lol:
I never faulted Orton for his incompletes to avoid picks, only his total immobility and tendency to fumble when hit (which was often, and our line deserved nearly as much blame for that then as now; that time in the pocket is as much an issue for our running QB as our immobile one kinda tells the tale on "great line vs. great QB.")

added risks? We've had 4 TOs in the past 2 games, 3 fumbles 1 pic, two fumbles coming on running plays. I doubt there's more INTs thrown on <10 yard passes in a season than fumbles. And then consider defensive holding, pass interference, illegal contact and roughing the passer (I'd expect quick passes to lead to more RtP calls due to frustration of always almost getting there) compared to no run-specific penalties. Face-masking probably occurs more vs the run, but obviously can happen to WRs too. Offensive holding impacts both run and pass. You can throw an incompletion, but your typical NFL passer completes nearly 2 of 3 passes no matter how far, so you'd expect <10 yards to be a higher comp%. Besides, a run for no gain is the same as an incompletion, and a 1-2 yard gain isn't much better on 1st down.

What do you see as added risks in the short passing game Joel?
The same ones I cited in my post from last week:
http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1476878&postcount=27
To refresh your memory:

Passing has so far yielded 6.4 YPA, a 4.3 TD%, a 34 1st% and a 2.9 Int%. Rushing has yielded 4.2 YPA, a 2.8 TD%, a 22 1st% and a 1.6 Fum%

So, on average, passing increases the yardage, chance of a first down and chance of a TD 50% more than running, but DOUBLES the risk of a turnover. Since the chance of a TD on a 5 yard quick out OR run is about the same all the time (i.e. minimal until near their goal line) and the same is true for first downs (remember, the above stats include ALL passes) we're basically talking about doubling the risk of a turnover in exchange for 2 yards/play. No, thanks.

Now, the short passing game DOES reduce the risk of turnovers below that of passing in general, but never to the level of running in general, and the gains it makes against normal passing come with costs of their own: Not only are yardage, first downs and TDs reduced, but when those less common (but not as uncommon as running) short passing turnovers happen, they happen at the line of scrimmage, not 40 yards downfield like on a bomb. An intercepted DEEP pass is often little worse than a punt; an intercepted quick out is frequently FAR worse than a (less common) fumble, because it not only happens at the line, but usually when a DB or LB catches the ball at a dead sprint with NO ONE between him and the nearby goal line. As noted in my earlier post, it's kind of interesting how the West Coasts Offenses dominance coincides with the now ubiquitous but previously non-existent phrase "pick six."

The rules certainly have made it easier for passing, yes; the NFL responded to the growing popularity of passing, and short passing in particular, by making it even easier. Kinda like treating a crack addiction with more crack. It may be good for ratings, but it's not good for the game, as we've seen a lot more teams blowing 17, 20 or even 24 point second half leads. Passing may be exciting, but no one will pay to see their team play if, even though it's the best, the WORST teams have a 50/50 chance of beating them by just chunking deep balls and waiting for the inevitable flag. We've already seen the League start to dial back on the rules by saying "incidental" contact with a QBs head will no longer be a penalty; expect more of that in coming seasons. DBs telling the media they're playing flag football isn't good for the game either.

Still and so, "typical NFL passers" don't complete nearly 2/3 of passes:
http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&season=2011&seasonType=REG&offensiveStatisticCategory=TEAM_PASSING&role=TM&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&conference=ALL&d-447263-s=PASSING_COMPLETION_PERCENTAGE
Brees and Rodgers are >2/3, and Brady and Romo are close; everyone else is closer to 60/40, even with the pass happy rules I don't expect to persist. The League likes what big scoring plays do for ratings, but also knows the serious football fans who finance the game with consistent merchandise and ticket sales watch the NFL instead of the AFL for a reason.

Meanwhile, my core point still holds: Passing ALWAYS increases the risk of turnovers well above running; short passing only minimizes without eliminating that increase. Consequently, justifying that risk is only possible with a corresponding increase in potential rewards, as first and/or touchdowns.