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View Full Version : Some Of The Broncos Dead Cap Space for 2009: The Cost of Throwing The Bums Out!



Cugel
02-04-2009, 12:19 PM
I found this quite interesting source on Broncos contracts in Rotoworld (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/clubhouse_contracts.aspx?sport=NFL&majteam=DEN) that allows us to see just what sort of salary cap-hit the Broncos will take from cutting various of the LOSERS Shanahan brought in as FAs & failed draft picks in recent years.

To review:

1. No NFL salary is guaranteed so the team saves the money they would have paid in salary.

2. Roster bonuses and incentive bonuses (obviously) are NOT paid unless the player is on the roster on a certain date or earns the incentive.

3. Signing bonuses are pro-rated over the life of the contract, so you take the unearned portion of the contract and divide by the number of remaining years. That's the salary cap hit. If the player is designated as a June 1 cut this cap hit is divided between this year and the next. If he's cut before that it all piles onto this year's cap. Ouch!

The High Cost Of Cutting Off The Dead-Wood!


3/6/2008: Boss Bailey: Denver Broncos. Signed a five-year, $17.5 million contract. The deal included a $4.3 million signing bonus. Another $3 million is available through incentives in years four and five. 2009: $895,000, 2010-2012: $2.4 million, 2013: Free Agent. Cap charges: $1.755 million (2009), $3.26 million (2010-2012).

1. The Broncos save $895,000 base salary cutting Bailey in 2009.

2. He keeps the signing bonus, and the cap hit was pro-rated over the life of the contract (5 years) so 4.3 million / 5 = $860,000. He's earned $860,000 of the $4.3 million so far.

3. We can forget about the incentives, since he'll never reach year 2 let alone 4 or 5.

So, if he's cut before June 1, 2009 the entire $3,440,000 gets accelerated immediately against the cap! If he's designated as a June 1 cut, then the cap hit is divided in half. $1,720,000 counts against this year's cap and the same thing next season in 2010.

So, that was a screwed up contract that will cost the team! :coffee:

Niko Koutouvides is another bad example:


Niko Koutouvides: Denver Broncos. 3/3/2008: Signed a three-year, $7.5 million contract. The deal included a $2 million signing bonus. 2009: $620,000 (+ $1.8 million roster bonus), 2010: $1.5 million, 2011: Free Agent

He's earned $667,000 of his $2 million signing bonus, all of which he keeps, and the remaining $1.33 million is divided between this year and next, so this year, letting the worthless bum go will cost: $666,000 and the same next year in 2010. :coffee:


Tim Crowder: Denver Broncos. 7/27/2007: Signed a four-year, $3 million contract. The deal included a $1.31 million signing bonus. 2009: $460,000, 2010: $550,000, 2011: Free Agent

So, this year's cap hit would be $665,000 which could be divided over 2 seasons by designating Crowder as a June 1 cut. But, if they want to see if he can play in the 3-4 they'll have to keep him on through the pre-season at least.

So, if (likely) he's cut in August, it will cost them a cap hit of $665,000.


According to NFL scouts, the Broncos move to a 3-4 defense could benefit defensive ends Jarvis Moss and Tim Crowder.
Though Moss and Crowder wildly disappointed in their two seasons, the switch may allow them to convert to stand-up outside linebackers. The 3-4 is not good news for Dewayne Robertson, Ebenezer Ekuban, and John Engelberger, however. Robertson is due a huge roster bonus and looks likely to get cut.

So, let's look at DeWayne Robertson:


New coach Josh McDaniels said Wednesday that the Broncos will be flexible on defense next season.

This gives Dewayne Robertson a chance to stick, as long as he takes a pay cut. He has experience in both the 3-4 and 4-3 and McDaniels says Denver will base its defenses on week-to-week game plans. We'd still expect it to be a base 3-4 and the club to target a true nose tackle on day one of the draft.

My guess is that he'll rather move to a new team that plays a 4-3. He'll still have to take a pay-cut, but his knees would never hold up in a 3-4 (that's why the Jets got rid of him). And being a part-time player means a BIG pay cut.

See ya DeWayne! :wave:


4/23/2008: Signed a six-year, $24 million contract. 2008: $900,000 (+ $3.1 million roster bonus), 2009: $900,000 (+ $17 million roster bonus?), 2010-2013: Under Contract, 2014: Free Agent. Cap charge: $4 million (2008).

$17 million roster bonus? The post says it's a $4 million ROSTER bonus due March 1 (http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_11437028), so they'll either have to renegotiate right now, or cut him loose.

Assuming that $13 Million of the bonus is a SIGNING bonus, then the cap hit would be $13 million divided between this year and next! I.E. $6.5 million each in 2009 and 2010, for cutting Robertson -- assuming they keep him until June 1. But, that will cost them $4 million on March 1.

So, they really need to re-negotiate his contract ASAP! BAD situation here!

If the $13 were a ROSTER bonus, then they could cut him without penalty. I don't know who's right here.


John Engleberger: 2/28/2008: Signed a two-year, $4 million contract. The deal includes $1.35 million in bonus money. 2009: $1.285 million, 2010: Free Agent

Cost of cutting him prior to June 1: $675,000. June 1 cut: $338,000 in both 2009 & 2010. Since he can't play in a 3-4 and SUCKS BAD, take the hit and get rid of this dead-wood!


Marquand Manuel: 3/8/2008: Signed a three-year, $4.5 million contract. The deal included a $500,000 signing bonus. Another $1.5 million is available through incentives based on playing time. 2009: $1.25 million, 2010: $1.5 million, 2011: Free Agent

So, another $250,000 hit for cutting this useless chode. :coffee:

Marlon McCree: : Free Agent! So there is SOME good news! It costs the Broncos nothing to cut that bum! :cool:

Ebeneezer Ekuban is another FA! More good news! :cheers:

And for all of you arguing that Dre Bly should be cut? Forget it! It will cost too much!


3/28/2007: Signed a five-year, $33 million contract. The deal contains $18 million in bonuses. $16 million is guaranteed, including a $9 million "signing bonus" in the second year. 2009-2010: $3.25 million, 2011: $4 million, 2012: Free Agent

TXBRONC
02-04-2009, 12:38 PM
I found this quite interesting source on Broncos contracts in Rotoworld (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/clubhouse_contracts.aspx?sport=NFL&majteam=DEN) that allows us to see just what sort of salary cap-hit the Broncos will take from cutting various of the LOSERS Shanahan brought in as FAs & failed draft picks in recent years.

To review:

1. No NFL salary is guaranteed so the team saves the money they would have paid in salary.

2. Roster bonuses and incentive bonuses (obviously) are NOT paid unless the player is on the roster on a certain date or earns the incentive.

3. Signing bonuses are pro-rated over the life of the contract, so you take the unearned portion of the contract and divide by the number of remaining years. That's the salary cap hit. If the player is designated as a June 1 cut this cap hit is divided between this year and the next. If he's cut before that it all piles onto this year's cap. Ouch!

The High Cost Of Cutting Off The Dead-Wood!


1. The Broncos save $895,000 base salary cutting Bailey in 2009.

2. He keeps the signing bonus, and the cap hit was pro-rated over the life of the contract (5 years) so 4.3 million / 5 = $860,000. He's earned $860,000 of the $4.3 million so far.

3. We can forget about the incentives, since he'll never reach year 2 let alone 4 or 5.

So, if he's cut before June 1, 2009 the entire $3,440,000 gets accelerated immediately against the cap! If he's designated as a June 1 cut, then the cap hit is divided in half. $1,720,000 counts against this year's cap and the same thing next season in 2010.

So, that was a screwed up contract that will cost the team! :coffee:

Niko Koutouvides is another bad example:


He's earned $667,000 of his $2 million signing bonus, all of which he keeps, and the remaining $1.33 million is divided between this year and next, so this year, letting the worthless bum go will cost: $666,000 and the same next year in 2010. :coffee:


So, this year's cap hit would be $665,000 which could be divided over 2 seasons by designating Crowder as a June 1 cut. But, if they want to see if he can play in the 3-4 they'll have to keep him on through the pre-season at least.

So, if (likely) he's cut in August, it will cost them a cap hit of $665,000.



So, let's look at DeWayne Robertson:


My guess is that he'll rather move to a new team that plays a 4-3. He'll still have to take a pay-cut, but his knees would never hold up in a 3-4 (that's why the Jets got rid of him). And being a part-time player means a BIG pay cut.

See ya DeWayne! :wave:



$17 million roster bonus? The post says it's a $4 million ROSTER bonus due March 1 (http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_11437028), so they'll either have to renegotiate right now, or cut him loose.

Assuming that $13 Million of the bonus is a SIGNING bonus, then the cap hit would be $13 million divided between this year and next! I.E. $6.5 million each in 2009 and 2010, for cutting Robertson -- assuming they keep him until June 1. But, that will cost them $4 million on March 1.

So, they really need to re-negotiate his contract ASAP! BAD situation here!

If the $13 were a ROSTER bonus, then they could cut him without penalty. I don't know who's right here.



Cost of cutting him prior to June 1: $675,000. June 1 cut: $338,000 in both 2009 & 2010. Since he can't play in a 3-4 and SUCKS BAD, take the hit and get rid of this dead-wood!


So, another $250,000 hit for cutting this useless chode. :coffee:

Marlon McCree: : Free Agent! So there is SOME good news! It costs the Broncos nothing to cut that bum! :cool:

Ebeneezer Ekuban is another FA! More good news! :cheers:

And for all of you arguing that Dre Bly should be cut? Forget it! It will cost too much!

Good stuff.

I would like for Denver to show Bly the door but I fully understand he probably wont because of the cap hit Denver would take in doing so.

broncosinindy
02-04-2009, 12:45 PM
so do the math for us and tell us how much it is gonna run us to cut the fat :) :)

Cugel
02-04-2009, 01:06 PM
so do the math for us and tell us how much it is gonna run us to cut the fat :) :)

I thought I just did! :laugh:

If you mean give a total that would DEPEND on whether they cut everybody, and WHEN they cut them!

The biggest question mark is Robertson. If they keep him on the roster after March 1 without renegotiating, then he's due an immediate $4 million.

Makes no sense to pay him that if you're not going to keep him.

But, designating him as a June 1 cut would save them $6.5 million in cap space this season (they'd have to pay it next year in 2010), which is more than $4 million. So, they could do that.

But, Bowlen might not want to sign a $4 million paycheck for a guy they don't want to keep. So that might not happen.

Robertson was a big underachiever in the Denver defense this year and his knees kept him out of a game for the first time ever. So, his career is probably coming to a close soon anyway.

But, he probably doesn't believe that, so the negotiation could be difficult with the two sides wide apart.

If they just cut him, he keeps $13 million for 1 season which is a horrible deal for the Broncos. And then he can either retire and buy his own island or else go to another team that plays a 4-3.

This is what happens when you're desperate and have to sign veteran FAs because you didn't draft any good DL between 2001-07 (except Reggie Hayward and they let him go in FA). And I'm giving Marcus Thomas and Jarvis Moss the benefit of the doubt here in not including them with all the other draft/FA busts.

Either or both could be gone next season, since neither has exactly lit up the league. Crowder probably WILL be gone unless he can somehow become a 3-4 DE, which I can't imagine.

Total? At least $8 million in dead cap space for 2009 (most for Robertson) for players who won't be on the roster doesn't seem out of line. Could be much more depending.

dogfish
02-04-2009, 01:06 PM
get dove valley on the phone, cug-- let's do this!



:cool:

broncosinindy
02-04-2009, 01:25 PM
I thought I just did! :laugh:

If you mean give a total that would DEPEND on whether they cut everybody, and WHEN they cut them!

The biggest question mark is Robertson. If they keep him on the roster after March 1 without renegotiating, then he's due an immediate $4 million.

Makes no sense to pay him that if you're not going to keep him.

But, designating him as a June 1 cut would save them $6.5 million in cap space this season (they'd have to pay it next year in 2010), which is more than $4 million. So, they could do that.

But, Bowlen might not want to sign a $4 million paycheck for a guy they don't want to keep. So that might not happen.

Robertson was a big underachiever in the Denver defense this year and his knees kept him out of a game for the first time ever. So, his career is probably coming to a close soon anyway.

But, he probably doesn't believe that, so the negotiation could be difficult with the two sides wide apart.

If they just cut him, he keeps $13 million for 1 season which is a horrible deal for the Broncos. And then he can either retire and buy his own island or else go to another team that plays a 4-3.

This is what happens when you're desperate and have to sign veteran FAs because you didn't draft any good DL between 2001-07 (except Reggie Hayward and they let him go in FA). And I'm giving Marcus Thomas and Jarvis Moss the benefit of the doubt here in not including them with all the other draft/FA busts.

Either or both could be gone next season, since neither has exactly lit up the league. Crowder probably WILL be gone unless he can somehow become a 3-4 DE, which I can't imagine.

Total? At least $8 million in dead cap space for 2009 (most for Robertson) for players who won't be on the roster doesn't seem out of line. Could be much more depending.

Ok now i thought since it was a roster bonus and he was cut before it was due. we dont owe him it.

4/23/2008: Signed a six-year, $24 million contract. 2008: $900,000 (+ $3.1 million roster bonus), 2009: $900,000 (+ $17 million roster bonus?), 2010-2013: Under Contract, 2014:

Free Agent. Cap charge: $4 million (2008).

As well i thought you were only allowed to make one Designated June 1st cut. gonna have to check into that

Cugel
02-04-2009, 01:39 PM
Ok now i thought since it was a roster bonus and he was cut before it was due. we dont owe him it.

4/23/2008: Signed a six-year, $24 million contract. 2008: $900,000 (+ $3.1 million roster bonus), 2009: $900,000 (+ $17 million roster bonus?), 2010-2013: Under Contract, 2014:

Free Agent. Cap charge: $4 million (2008).

As well i thought you were only allowed to make one Designated June 1st cut. gonna have to check into that

My confusion too. Because the Denver post (I cited the link) says he's due a $4 million roster bonus March 1, NOT $17 million.

2. But, Rotoworld says he's due a $17 million roster bonus in 2009, so unless there's some other roster bonus (can you even have TWO roster bonus dates in one year?) then the bonus would be a SIGNING or some other bonus.

It's a question of how much money is guaranteed. ROSTER bonuses aren't guaranteed, so just cut him.

SIGNING bonuses are pro-rated over the life of the contract but when you cut the player, the unearned portion of the signing bonus for years that he didn't play for you gets "accelerated" onto THIS year's salary cap (or this year and next year if you designate the player as a June 1 cut), so BIG Problem!

As for there being a limitation of 1 player designated as a June 1 cut, I wasn't aware of that. But, if Robertson were the biggest cap problem they would obviously use it on him.

But, as I stated, they can't because they have to pay him if he's on the roster on March 1, so:

1. Either they re-do his contract and keep him for 2009 (seems likely at this point).

2. OR else they cut him prior to March 1 so they don't have to pay him the roster bonus.

But they can only cut him prior to March 1 IF that's NOT going to cause a HUGE cap hit by accelerating his signing bonus!

Hopefully, that's clearer.

I know this stuff makes little sense. NOT ALL SALARY in the NFL counts against a team's salary cap, and the rules are arcane.

For instance, if you want to really twist your brain into knots, listen to this.

Performance bonuses that are "likely to be earned," but which are NOT in fact earned count against the salary cap one year, but if they are NOT in fact earned, they are ADDED BACK ON to the NEXT year's salary cap.

So, a smart team with some room under the cap one year can create a BIGGER cap for themselves NEXT Year!

If you create a "likely to be earned" bonus, and add it to a player's contract, and then they DON'T earn it, it gets added back onto NEXT year's salary cap.

Some teams are able to add MILLIONS of dollars in "free cap space" using this trick, but teams (like the Broncos under Shanny) that were always up against the cap because they signed a bunch of high-priced FAs, couldn't do this.

I think the Tennessee Titans and Arizona Cardinals did this and had MUCH bigger salary caps than the Broncos did in 2008. Probably true this year too.

Fan in Exile
02-04-2009, 04:03 PM
My confusion too. Because the Denver post (I cited the link) says he's due a $4 million roster bonus March 1, NOT $17 million.

2. But, Rotoworld says he's due a $17 million roster bonus in 2009, so unless there's some other roster bonus (can you even have TWO roster bonus dates in one year?) then the bonus would be a SIGNING or some other bonus.

It's a question of how much money is guaranteed. ROSTER bonuses aren't guaranteed, so just cut him.

SIGNING bonuses are pro-rated over the life of the contract but when you cut the player, the unearned portion of the signing bonus for years that he didn't play for you gets "accelerated" onto THIS year's salary cap (or this year and next year if you designate the player as a June 1 cut), so BIG Problem!

As for there being a limitation of 1 player designated as a June 1 cut, I wasn't aware of that. But, if Robertson were the biggest cap problem they would obviously use it on him.

But, as I stated, they can't because they have to pay him if he's on the roster on March 1, so:

1. Either they re-do his contract and keep him for 2009 (seems likely at this point).

2. OR else they cut him prior to March 1 so they don't have to pay him the roster bonus.

But they can only cut him prior to March 1 IF that's NOT going to cause a HUGE cap hit by accelerating his signing bonus!

Hopefully, that's clearer.

I know this stuff makes little sense. NOT ALL SALARY in the NFL counts against a team's salary cap, and the rules are arcane.

For instance, if you want to really twist your brain into knots, listen to this.

Performance bonuses that are "likely to be earned," but which are NOT in fact earned count against the salary cap one year, but if they are NOT in fact earned, they are ADDED BACK ON to the NEXT year's salary cap.

So, a smart team with some room under the cap one year can create a BIGGER cap for themselves NEXT Year!

If you create a "likely to be earned" bonus, and add it to a player's contract, and then they DON'T earn it, it gets added back onto NEXT year's salary cap.

Some teams are able to add MILLIONS of dollars in "free cap space" using this trick, but teams (like the Broncos under Shanny) that were always up against the cap because they signed a bunch of high-priced FAs, couldn't do this.

I think the Tennessee Titans and Arizona Cardinals did this and had MUCH bigger salary caps than the Broncos did in 2008. Probably true this year too.

It's not 17 million dollars because he didn't hit the playing time required to earn the 17 million dollar roster bonus. It should only be 4 million owed to him on march first. I believe that the contract was set up that way so that if things didn't pan out with his knees he could be cut after the first year without much of a penalty.

It's why I think he's gone after they spend some time evaluating players and get to him.

underrated29
02-04-2009, 04:33 PM
I am glad we aret going to cut bly. I like him and think he is good.

I also dont think we would show crowder the door. He will be entering his 3rd year and his rook contract is pretty decent.---Only reason i could see us letting him walk is the switch to the 3-4- if he doesnt fit.

TXBRONC
02-04-2009, 04:43 PM
I am glad we aret going to cut bly. I like him and think he is good.

I also dont think we would show crowder the door. He will be entering his 3rd year and his rook contract is pretty decent.---Only reason i could see us letting him walk is the switch to the 3-4- if he doesnt fit.

I was very disappointed in Bly's play this past season although I know it's not all his fault. However, if we can get a solid pass rush he probably would look a lot better.

broncofaninfla
02-04-2009, 04:49 PM
Sure makes you more crtical of some of these guys when you see how much they get paid and how little we got in return. Hopefully Denver will do a better job with the new management in place from here on out.

Cugel
02-04-2009, 04:49 PM
It's not 17 million dollars because he didn't hit the playing time required to earn the 17 million dollar roster bonus. It should only be 4 million owed to him on march first. I believe that the contract was set up that way so that if things didn't pan out with his knees he could be cut after the first year without much of a penalty.

It's why I think he's gone after they spend some time evaluating players and get to him.

Well, renting Robertson for 1 year for $4 million isn't the end of the world. :coffee:

The Ravens paid Trevor Pryce what the Broncos wouldn't -- around $10 million a year. Julius Peppers is unhappy making $13 million this season and wants a raise!

Of course those players are better than Roberts (in Peppers case a LOT better), but they're also making a lot more.

If the Broncos want to keep him he'll have to take a pay-cut. He might be worth $2.5 million -- assuming his knees hold up for another year and they were pretty shaky.

But, he can't play in a 3-4 so that limits his usefulness.


underrated29 I am glad we aret going to cut bly. I like him and think he is good.

I also dont think we would show crowder the door. He will be entering his 3rd year and his rook contract is pretty decent.---Only reason i could see us letting him walk is the switch to the 3-4- if he doesnt fit.

Well, if he's going to suck as a 3-4 DE as badly as he did as a 4-3 DE they'll DEFINITELY cut him.

People say that "it takes 3 years for a DE to develop." That's sometimes true, but they should show at least SOME SIGNS that they will ever be good by their 2nd year -- and that means getting on the field! Maybe they won't be a starter until their 3rd year, but they should at least get off the bench and show SOMETHING!

Crowder was essentially a total after-thought in 2008. He was inactive over 1/2 the season and did nothing at all in the few games he played. He was your basic 3rd string backup.

And all this was for a defense that was almost dead last in the NFL! HE couldn't even beat out the useless John Engleberger for God's sake!

So, that's not a good sign that he'll ever be any good. He's very probably just another Shanahan wasted 2nd round draft pick like LB Terry Pierce or WR Darius Watts neither of whom ever amounted to anything.

Probably the same thing here. :coffee:

TXBRONC
02-04-2009, 05:10 PM
Of course those players are better than Roberts (in Peppers case a LOT better), but they're also making a lot more.


I know if a LOT better even beings to describe the difference in talent level. But of coarse Robertson does play a different position.

deacon
02-04-2009, 06:25 PM
In fairness to Bly (I don't like him either BTW) no corner is gonna look very good when you don't have any kind of a pass rush.

WARHORSE
02-04-2009, 06:28 PM
No matter how you cut it, we have plenty of cap space to do what we want.

Cut, chop, fire, sign, release, resign, re-tool, revise, trade, restructure, franchise, tender, etc, etc, etc........

LoyalSoldier
02-04-2009, 08:30 PM
As much as people keep saying "cut Bly" I don't think he should be cut. We have one of the worst front 7s in the league and as such I think all of our corners look bad. Heck even Champ got burned a lot this season and we all know he is no slacker.

Lonestar
02-04-2009, 08:38 PM
As much as people keep saying "cut Bly" I don't think he should be cut. We have one of the worst front 7s in the league and as such I think all of our corners look bad. Heck even Champ got burned a lot this season and we all know he is no slacker.

Hey he needs to redo his contract or Move on IMO.. regardless of whether the DL or LB do there jobs we are not getting the value for his money..

A much lower paid CB can accomplish almost the same thing for a hell of alot less money..

SO cut him or re-do the contract at about 1/3 of what it is..

Bite the bullet on the cap space and concentrate on building via the draft..

Next year is a bust anyway with the teams we play..

draft them teach them and expect playoffs in 2010..

WARHORSE
02-04-2009, 09:19 PM
Hey he needs to redo his contract or Move on IMO.. regardless of whether the DL or LB do there jobs we are not getting the value for his money..

A much lower paid CB can accomplish almost the same thing for a hell of alot less money..

SO cut him or re-do the contract at about 1/3 of what it is..

Bite the bullet on the cap space and concentrate on building via the draft..

Next year is a bust anyway with the teams we play..

draft them teach them and expect playoffs in 2010..


Cut Champ Bailey.......................


You ought to have that engraved on a gold placard and placed on the biggest trophy you can afford. I'll even make a donation.


Trophy for:

My Top Ten Brightest Ideas That Werent As Bright As I Thought.

TXBRONC
02-04-2009, 09:21 PM
Cut Champ Bailey.......................


You ought to have that engraved on a gold placard and placed on the biggest trophy you can afford. I'll even make a donation.


Trophy for:

My Top Ten Brightest Ideas That Werent As Bright As I Thought.

War, he's talking about Bly.

Lonestar
02-04-2009, 09:24 PM
Cut Champ Bailey.......................


You ought to have that engraved on a gold placard and placed on the biggest trophy you can afford. I'll even make a donation.


Trophy for:

My Top Ten Brightest Ideas That Werent As Bright As I Thought.



not Champ, but burnt toast bly..

although I'd like to see Champs contract re-done also..

WARHORSE
02-04-2009, 10:24 PM
not Champ, but burnt toast bly..

although I'd like to see Champs contract re-done also..


Oh.........sorry then. No need for the trophy.:D



I dont think we can cut Bly, and if we did, all we would do is create even more holes. Im thinking with an improved pass rush, Bly can gamble more which is his game. But as for stopping the run, I noticed him giving up the body more late last year............maybe hes turning a new leaf.

I think the monetary hit and cap space would not be worth the cutting of Bly.

We need to get Peppers, Haynesworth, or someone in here to get some rush goin.

WARHORSE
02-04-2009, 10:25 PM
War, he's talking about Bly.


Well, kick me in the cup....................:confused:



:D

Cugel
02-05-2009, 11:08 AM
Oh.........sorry then. No need for the trophy.:D



I dont think we can cut Bly, and if we did, all we would do is create even more holes. Im thinking with an improved pass rush, Bly can gamble more which is his game. But as for stopping the run, I noticed him giving up the body more late last year............maybe hes turning a new leaf.

I think the monetary hit and cap space would not be worth the cutting of Bly.

We need to get Peppers, Haynesworth, or someone in here to get some rush goin.

You're right! Take a look at my thread on the Salary Cap implications of cutting Bly. :coffee:

Massive cap hit.

Needless to say, he's going NOWHERE, at least this season. If the Broncos are serious about replacing him then they should draft a CB somewhere in the first 4 rounds, groom him to replace Bly and then see where we are next season. With a LOT of luck you'd have someone like Darrent Williams who could step in and start at least by season 2.

I'm not sure that Jack Williams is going to be the answer as the #2 CB and we KNOW that Karl Paymah basically sucks.

They made a BIG mistake in getting rid of Foxworth and bringing in Dre Bly. Foxworth is a lot less expensive and would have been better as the #2 CB as he's proving in Atlanta.

AS for Peppers/Haynesworth, Peppers thinks his current $13 million a season is too SMALL a salary! He'll cost the earth and the moon, with the stars thrown in as a signing bonus!

The Titans can easily afford to keep Haynesworth so that's not going to happen.

You just can't expect to find elite DL in FA and if you do (the last was Patrick Kearney whom the Broncos desperately and unsuccessfully tried to acquire) you pay through the nose.

The other alternative is to TRADE (usually a high round draft pick): example Jared Allen, John Abraham. Just HUGE compensation! Jared Allen to the Vikings got the Chiefs: the #13 pick of the draft they used to take OT Branden Albert, plus 2 3rd round picks, Plus the Vikings and Chiefs swapped picks in the 6th round, with the Chiefs moving up.

That's rather a lot to give up! Now Allen is possibly the best pass-rusher in the NFL and the Vikings made the playoffs this year so perhaps it's worth it. The Chiefs certainly missed his sack skills this past year! But, as the Broncos found with Javon Walker, the first year doesn't tell the entire story!

Check back in a couple of seasons and see how Allen is doing and what the Chiefs' draft picks are doing, and then maybe we'll see how it looks!

The Broncos sure could use that top of the 2nd round draft pick they gave up to grab Javon Walker right now! (They could have drafted Devin Hester for instance!)

WARHORSE
02-06-2009, 11:36 AM
Well, if nothing else comes from running a 3-4........big money players arent a required part of the equation.

There are no huge contracts on the defensive side of the ball in New England or Pittsburg. As we can see, they let the big guys go and trade them for draft picks.

Lets see what happens...........

Dean
02-06-2009, 05:12 PM
With safeties for next year that can give deep support, we could play bump and run. I believe that all our corners would look much better.

Cugel
02-07-2009, 01:51 PM
Well, if nothing else comes from running a 3-4........big money players arent a required part of the equation.

There are no huge contracts on the defensive side of the ball in New England or Pittsburg. As we can see, they let the big guys go and trade them for draft picks.

Lets see what happens...........

No huge contracts? I don't know about that. This seems pretty big to me! (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/clubhouse_contracts.aspx?sport=NFL&majteam=NE):coffee:


DE Richard Seymour: 4/12/2006: Signed a four-year, $30 million contract. The deal contains $24 million in guarantees, including a second year option bonus of $18.6 million. 2008: $730,000, 2009: $3.685 million, 2010: Free Agent. Cap charges: $8.39 million (2008), $11.34 million (2009).

$30 million including $24 million in guarantees? An $11.4 million cap hit for 2009? "Not big?" :laugh:

How about Ty Warren?


8/16/2007: Signed a five-year, $36 million contract extension through 2013. The deal contains $18 million in guarantees, including a $7 million signing bonus and a $7 million option bonus in the first year. 2008: $1.45 million, 2009: $1.225 million, 2010: $2.9 million, 2011: $3.1 million, 2012: $3.25 million, 2013: $3.9 million, 2014: Free Agent

And let's not forget Adelius Thomas:


3/3/2007: Signed a five-year, $35.04 million contract. The deal included a $12 million signing bonus. 2008: $900,000 (+ $8 million option bonus), 2009: $1.9 million, 2010: $4.9 million, 2011: $5.9 million, 2012: Free Agent. Cap charges: $5.4 million (2008), $6.4 million (2009), $9.4 million (2010), $10.4 million (2011).

I'd say $20 million in signing and option bonuses in 2 years in addition to your salary is pretty "huge." :coffee:

D1g1tal j1m
02-08-2009, 01:50 AM
I think we should keep Crowder and see how he performs this coming year. I know that he didn't play most of last year and was passed over for Engleberger but I think he will bounce back big time. I don't trust the talent evaluators for the Defense last year (just look how bad they were) and the new DLine coach Wayne Nunnely will hopefully get the most out of him.
I don't know why Shann had the infatuation with Engleberger but now I think it is time for the young guys to really get let loose on the field.

Lonestar
02-08-2009, 02:30 AM
I think we should keep Crowder and see how he performs this coming year. I know that he didn't play most of last year and was passed over for Engleberger but I think he will bounce back big time. I don't trust the talent evaluators for the Defense last year (just look how bad they were) and the new DLine coach Wayne Nunnely will hopefully get the most out of him.
I don't know why Shann had the infatuation with Engleberger but now I think it is time for the young guys to really get let loose on the field.

if you have a motor and do not get into mikeys doghouse your around..

What got me was few years ago Mike Bell was a scoring machine then he was off the radar forever..the same thing for crowder had a decent rookie year and came on pretty good at the EOY then into the doghouse never to be seen again..

How these and many other players could be good and then DIE without getting on IR is beyond me..

Hopefully they can prove themselves to the new coaches that do not have a blind eye or are afraid to tell the HC this one is worth playing without getting fired..


I'm guessing that this team has been filled with yes men so long that whatever mikey wanted he got.. Regardless of who was a better player..

NameUsedBefore
02-08-2009, 04:39 AM
Engelberger is worth keeping around, IMO. Dude doesn't really get the stats, but he definitely contributes.

Robertson might be worth keeping around for another year as well.

Not sure why losing Ekuban would be worth celebrating as he's one of the few who has really played right up to his paygrade IMO.

Cugel
02-08-2009, 11:52 AM
Engelberger is worth keeping around, IMO. Dude doesn't really get the stats, but he definitely contributes.

Robertson might be worth keeping around for another year as well.

Not sure why losing Ekuban would be worth celebrating as he's one of the few who has really played right up to his paygrade IMO.
Getting rid of ALL Those useless Chodes would be worth celebrating! They might keep Robertson, if (1) he takes a BIG pay-cut so his $ is equal to his contribuion, AND (2) he can move out and play DE in a 3-4, which he possibly can do. He sure as hell doesn't want to be a NT, and he left the Jets because his knees couldn't handle the double-teams of a 3-4 DL any more. He hated that and wanted out to a team that plays a 4-3, thus he chose Denver.

So, he'll probably be gone too.
And "Engleberger is worth keeping around!" By God NO!! He's a useless scrub who would be at best 3rd string on any decent defense.

The fact that this slow talentless guy was STARTING on the D-line was just an indication of how BAD it was.

Remember this defensive line was possibly the WORST in the NFL. They couldn't sack the QB AT ALL outside of Dumervil (who had 4 this season). They couldn't stop the run either. They've got to get a LOT better DL than those scrubs!

Sorry, but if we wind up seeing Engleberger & Ekuban still on this team come September, it's going to be a LONG season! :coffee:

Lonestar
02-08-2009, 11:59 AM
Engelberger is worth keeping around, IMO. Dude doesn't really get the stats, but he definitely contributes.

Robertson might be worth keeping around for another year as well.

Not sure why losing Ekuban would be worth celebrating as he's one of the few who has really played right up to his paygrade IMO.


I think the huge roster bonus for Robertson will force that issue.. good player but not worth IIRC 3mil on 01MAR just for being here..

The others are transitional player till they can be upgraded.. Having a couple experienced vets around does not hurt as long as they do not break the bank.. Engelberger is a energizer bunny just keeps on going will never be a Peppers type but we all know there are very few that are.. He is an over achiever not blessed with talent just works at it.. until we find someone better IMHO he stays..

Lonestar
02-08-2009, 12:05 PM
Getting rid of ALL Those useless Chodes would be worth celebrating! They might keep Robertson, if (1) he takes a BIG pay-cut so his $ is equal to his contribuion, AND (2) he can move out and play DE in a 3-4, which he possibly can do. He sure as hell doesn't want to be a NT, and he left the Jets because his knees couldn't handle the double-teams of a 3-4 DL any more. He hated that and wanted out to a team that plays a 4-3, thus he chose Denver.

So, he'll probably be gone too.
And "Engleberger is worth keeping around!" By God NO!! He's a useless scrub who would be at best 3rd string on any decent defense. The fact that this slow talentless guy was STARTING on the D-line was just an indication of how BAD it was.

Remember this defensive line was possibly the WORST in the NFL. They couldn't sack the QB AT ALL outside of Dumervil (who had 4 this season). They couldn't stop the run either. They've got to get a LOT better DL than those scrubs!

Sorry, but if we wind up seeing Engleberger & Ekuban still on this team come September, it's going to be a LONG season! :coffee:


Perhaps he was but UNTIL we find someone better he stays.. he is got a jobs because we currently have nothing better that is the issue.. And it very well may be a really long season.. You forget how badly this defense has been neglected and treated like an ugly redheaded stepchild for almost ever since mikey has been here..

Overrated has been FA trying to fill grand canyon sized holes.. with pebbles.. This D is almost dead last in all stats for a reason..

Mc Kid and Nolan have a lot of work to do to make it a top 20 D let alone a top 5 Defense.. it is not going to happen overnight..

Cugel
02-08-2009, 12:25 PM
Perhaps he was but UNTIL we find someone better he stays.. he is got a jobs because we currently have nothing better that is the issue.. And it very well may be a really long season.. You forget how badly this defense has been neglected and treated like an ugly redheaded stepchild for almost ever since mikey has been here..

Overrated has been FA trying to fill grand canyon sized holes.. with pebbles.. This D is almost dead last in all stats for a reason..

Mc Kid and Nolan have a lot of work to do to make it a top 20 D let alone a top 5 Defense.. it is not going to happen overnight..
Of course you're right. It's a high hill to climb.

They basically have to find at least 7 new starters on defense, maybe 8. But, I'm hoping they can find some better DL than those 2.

After all, we don't know if Dumervil and Moss OR Crowder can do anything useful in a 3-4. We know that Dumervil is limited to a pass-rush specialist in a 4-3, and Moss & Crowder were so useless they couldn't get on the field for possibly the worst defense in the NFL.

And Mikey's dafting was responsible for the collapse on defense. He failed to draft any defensive starters outside JD Williams for 5 years! That left a gaping hole that he had to try and fill via FA.

Only teams don't just let good pass-rushing DL go in FA very often -- and they always cost a MINT! Shanahan tried to get by with the Browncos, and rejects and old fossils like Big Daddy Wilkinson, whom he actually tried to lure out of retirement, Sam Adams, (whom he DID lure out of a badly needed retirement) Simeon Rice, (whose retirement he postponed for a few weeks) Jimmy Kennedy, (so useless he didn't make the team). Oh, and undrafted FA scrubs like Antwon Burton, Amon Gordon, Kenny Peterson, Josh Mallard.

You just can't have guys like this on your team! Shanahan thought that because he rescued the career of John Lynch and got some pro-bowl seasons out of him, that it could work over and over again. (Thus Simeon Rice).

But, most over-the-hill, has-been, or Never-were players are sitting on the discard heap for a very good reason! Their former team concluded they can't do it any more. And that's usually correct.

Shanahan basically thought and stated publicly that he could take any team and coach them to 10-6 and a playoff berth. And then, he often said, "anything can happen." He even apologized after the 2007 season for not making the playoffs, believing that his coaching didn't get the job done.

So, just cobble the defense together with bailing wire, get to 10-6, get a playoff berth. Get hot in the playoffs and win a championship somehow. Because Mike started to believe his press-clippings that he could outcoach everybody else.

But, in truth his teams didn't have enough talent to make a serious playoff run even if they'd gotten there! You need balance! GOOD defense and a franchise QB. THEN you might get hot in the playoffs like the Cardinals did this year. But, they have some talented players on defense in their front seven over there. Not just a bunch of stiffs like Denver! Same thing with the Colts whose SB run made Shanahan feel he could do the same thing (their defense sucked until the playoffs when they suddenly came together).

But, that defense had some guys like Robert Mathis and Dwight Freeney. Denver's doesn't.

Well, in the end "something" did happen. Shanahan got fired! :coffee:

Lonestar
02-08-2009, 12:55 PM
outstanding post you hit the nail on the head..

I'm sorry it took Pat so long to figure it out.. I truly think he was a prime mover for Bates being brought to town.. I KNOW in my heart that mikey would have never thought of it, much less done it with out some heavy lifting from his friend and boss Pat..

When that did not work Pat gave him one last chance to fix it and he failed.. YOUR correct about his EGO thinking he was the best and could ride the offense into another SB ring..

While I was surprised to see mikey fired it was IMHO WAY over due..

Cugel
02-20-2009, 12:02 PM
Of the bums McDaniels has cut so far, here's the cap hit totals:

1. Koutivides: $1.6 million.
2. Dre Bly: $2.6 million (after figuring in the money saved on his roster bonuses).
3. Robertson -- paid $4 million in 2008, I believe all of his money was in the form of ROSTER bonuses, so there should be no cap hit, rather a cap savings of $16 million.
4. JOhn Engleberger - $675,000.
5. Marquand Manuel - $275,000

6. If the Broncos cut Boss Bailey: $3.4 million. OUCH. :tsk: That's in addition to the problem of him being injured when cut, which would trigger his guarantees.

So, all in all, they have to wait until August to cut him, but he's going to cost another $3.4 million to get rid of.

The rest, Winborn, et al., don't have large signing bonuses, so little impact so far.

TOTAL, WITH Boss Bailey would be: $7.6 million in additional dead cap space for 2008. That's not including such wonderful dead-cap space as the continuing cap hit from WR Keary Colbert (over $1 million in 2009) and other FA losers like Travis Henry (he's awaiting federal prison but still counts over $1 million in dead cap space for 2009 due to the signing bonus he got back in 2007).

Buff
02-20-2009, 01:52 PM
Not sure if someone posted this already--

From rotoworld via the denver post--


Boss Bailey is virtually assured of staying with the Broncos despite coming off microfracture knee surgery.
Bailey's March 3 roster bonus is guaranteed and comprises about 70% of his 2009 earnings, so Denver may as well keep him. He probably won't be counted on for much, however, coming off such a major knee operation.

Cugel
02-20-2009, 02:04 PM
Not sure if someone posted this already--

From rotoworld via the denver post--

I'm not sure why they "might as well keep him" if they have to pay him 30% more to have him sit on the bench than to let him walk and he's going to be of no use either way.

Probably they can't cut him until he comes off IR which won't be for some months.

broncohead
02-20-2009, 09:46 PM
I'm not sure why they "might as well keep him" if they have to pay him 30% more to have him sit on the bench than to let him walk and he's going to be of no use either way.

Probably they can't cut him until he comes off IR which won't be for some months.

But the 30% won't be that much money. He could add some depth but won't start.

SmilinAssasSin27
02-20-2009, 10:29 PM
They also prolly don't want to piss off his brother.

DenBronx
02-21-2009, 06:19 PM
Of the bums McDaniels has cut so far, here's the cap hit totals:

1. Koutivides: $1.6 million.
2. Dre Bly: $2.6 million (after figuring in the money saved on his roster bonuses).
3. Robertson -- paid $4 million in 2008, I believe all of his money was in the form of ROSTER bonuses, so there should be no cap hit, rather a cap savings of $16 million.
4. JOhn Engleberger - $675,000.
5. Marquand Manuel - $275,000

6. If the Broncos cut Boss Bailey: $3.4 million. OUCH. :tsk: That's in addition to the problem of him being injured when cut, which would trigger his guarantees.

So, all in all, they have to wait until August to cut him, but he's going to cost another $3.4 million to get rid of.

The rest, Winborn, et al., don't have large signing bonuses, so little impact so far.

TOTAL, WITH Boss Bailey would be: $7.6 million in additional dead cap space for 2008. That's not including such wonderful dead-cap space as the continuing cap hit from WR Keary Colbert (over $1 million in 2009) and other FA losers like Travis Henry (he's awaiting federal prison but still counts over $1 million in dead cap space for 2009 due to the signing bonus he got back in 2007).


you keep posting the caps hits but your not mentioning the cap savings. they greatly outweigh the cost of cutting these blokes. in the end it was well worth cutting them and moving forward in finding the right guys. you did mention the 16 mill in robertsons case but we still saved by cutting bly, engle, manuel ect.